Thanks to HelloFresh for sponsoring today's video. Go to strms.net/SmoughtownHelloFreshJuneYT and use code POGSMOUGHJUN16 to get 16 Free Meals plus Free Shipping!
another testament is how much content was actually in this game. it took many years for the tomb prospectors to finally map out all of the chalice dungeons? like 7, I think?
Faux-sefka was definitely giving birth to a great one instead of ascending to one herself. Her pose was a common birthing position and she’s talking about feeling nauseous and terrible. It’s also when the red moon is out, so her womb has also been ‘blessed by child’
Not necessarely, she acts very different from Arianna: rather than feeling nauseated from something in her womb, she feels creatures crawling in her head - a symptom Arianna doesn't share. I think the idea was she wanted so much to be a special chosen one, that she experiment things on herself until a contact of some sort happened. She *wants* to be pregnant, blessed with God's child [and so some of her behaviour like the birthing position may be delusional], but in the end she is never able to gave birth specifically because all she managed to do was rot her brain with cosmic mollusks.
@@baltoy7460 Ok here come the details on why I think she’s giving birth, its long. I don’t think her birthing ritual was ever going to work out because she forced it through her experiments. The third umbilical cord she drops is because it was a failed pregnancy of an infant great one. Not that it was her own cord as she was ascending to become one herself. Rom was actually able to ascend for real, and she does not drop a cord when killed. Also, we have to munch on cords we find lying around to become infant great ones ourselves, we don’t grow one like fauxsefka. We get the cords from 1: Ariana 2: mergo 3: workshop 4: fausefka. Arianas kid is the child of a great one. Mergo is an infant great one. The one in the workshop is most likely from the orphan, since the workshop belongs to Gehrman and he was involved in killing kos. Those three are from literal infants and not from someone ascending. At least the first two if you disagree with the workshop cord belonging to the orphan. Mergos cord description says the cord allowed Mensis to have audience with Mergo. The workshop cord says it precipitated contact with the moon presence, imo implying the cord allowed contact between the moon presence and gehrman. Fauxsefkas cord says that Willem wanted a cord because he thought it would grant him eyes and let him ascend. I think that’s what Fauxsefka was trying to do. By birthing an infant great one she would have a cord and thus be able to ascend, or at least gain audience with a great one. Rom did manage to ascend, but besides for being ‘granted eyes’, its not super clear how that happened or if it involved cords. She was a Byrgenwerth scholar, so that’s another possibility for where the orphans cord went (I still think its in the workshop though.) As for Arianna and fauxsefka having different symptoms, we do find Arianna pre and post birth hunched over clutching her head. Could be nausea and brain wiggles. Could be weeping in despair. Hard to say, since she politely says ‘sorry I don’t feel good’! I think the writhing in Fauxsefkas head makes sense either way, her experiments granted her insight. But the MOST important reason that fauxsefka is definitely giving birth there is because of the themes. Mensis, pregnancy, birth, motherhood, treatment of women, medical abuse, it really just makes sense for fauxsefka to be pregnant there.
An interesting note about the Brainsuckers: I believe it was in a ZullietheWitch video where they point out that there are stitches and surgical scars on the heads of Brainsuckers, implying that they may have had a phantasm surgically implanted in their brain, possibly as part of the choir's experiments.
Yeah Bloodborne was a PS exclusive. Also back when "Prepare To Cry" was a little channel that could and Dark Souls was all we knew. The audience generation on an almost 10 yr old probably ain't high, but I am sure the lore channels were not in their golden age yet.
@@SmoughTown I really hope you go in depth with Bloodborne. So much to learn about not only the game, but also real-world historical medical practices and important figures of old. The game is so rich in inspiration from real-life events, and finding them is another treat Bloodborne teases the players
Charred Thermos makes some brillant Bloodborne content, too. He doesn't post often and I somehow think he is done with his Bloodborne series (around 14 videos) but he has announced a special about the messengers.
That interpretation of the chalice dungeons as fixed pocket dimensions that preserve moments in time really makes sense when you consider the loran chalice dungeon
"We are born of the blood, made men by the blood, undone by the blood. Our eyes have yet to open... Fear the Old Blood." I absolutely adore Bloodborne great to see you diving into it the game it really is one of fromsolfs best
Also side comment to keep ideas from building up in a paragraph, the chimney smoke idea blew my mind, if you pay attention to the Cleric Beast bridge it appears to go nowhere but then you see it before at the Orphanage and I never knew why until now. As for the fall of the Choir I personally still think the Red Moon pushed them over the edge more so, I always felt as if there was some human element up there almost watching us to a degree that just disappears as the Red Moon appears, you can actually see the Orphanage in Central Yharnam (you really can see alot, Old Yharnam from the bridge, Byrgenwerth from the wind mill, The Mensis castle in the frontier, and from the Mensis castle you can see multiple Nightmare Frontiers below.) Regardless one thing I question is the Celestial children, its possible they were being birthed there but the note in the Lecture Hall says “When the red moon hangs low a womb will be blessed with a child.” This implies a celestial birth is a pretty significant detail, now we now for a fact the red moon is a condition that can only afflict certain areas, as Old Yharnam still exists in Nighttime during it with a normal moon, so maybe its possible that they have their own ways of conceiving children without the ritual, maybe “Making Contact,” but even still wouldn’t Rom hold them back? Or do they control Rom to a degree? Another thing I wished was covered is the statues, Bloodborne has alot, so many you kinda get numb to it, but some are messengers seemingly evolving into animals, other alien like creatures, and then the Amygdalas who turned out to be very real. And then in The Unseen village, you see unique statues of little alien dudes (on the side path of the gaol with a wandering madness) and then masses of human faces and arms that are covered in blankets, and when we get further into the village we see people having been sucked into walls and petrified. Definitely some of the kidnapped people probably consumed to form the One Reborn. But i now question every statue I see as either an artistic visualization of concepts, or foreshadowing of creatures we see, or literal corpses frozen in place. In the Choir there are several figured that have cloaks on, alien looking creatures clutching their stomachs, if there was a birthing farm I think these would be the mothers. And if so would Odeon be the father of each? Why would they be petrified after the Red Moon forms, as well as the Make Contact corpse? The Altar of Despair also has several organic like shapes in its architecture very interesting that things seem to petrify when “transported,” like Micolashes corpse. I suppose for a final thought is Ebritas a child if Odeon? Considering how the newborns look like her as well as seek her maternal affection (given the three before the Celestial Emissary boss room) is she the Holy Medium? Occam’s Razor suggests yes but at the same time its as clear as if Melina is the Gloam Eyed Queen, all signs would point to it being so but its not outright confirmed.
This was such a great video! One additional subtlety I'd add to this discussion is the apparent difference between motivations of ascension for the School of Mensis and the Choir. The School of Mensis is noteworthy for their relatively populist approach to apotheosis compared to the Choir, the Choir's approach being elitist. Much like you outlined, the Choir was seeking their ascension as elites of the Healing Church and using the entire society below them as a resource to that end, while the School of Mensis attempted ascension throughout the entire Unseen village and as a massive group. While the Choir had no qualms about slowly working towards ascension while the city below them suffered and burned, the School of Mensis thought that the ascension of all humanity to godhood could not wait through the current catastrophe, and that is why they took such bold and reckless actions to beckon the Great Ones down to them rather than the slow process of the elites rising to the highest planes to meet the Great Ones on the highest planes.
I think they knew of moon presence, but made the fatal error of beliving the great ones where a unified force. Too late did they discover that Flora was hunting the children of other great ones, a predator hunting calves of gods.
The collective hunger for more lore and more understanding is the best part of Bloodborne's metanarrative. It shows us how dangerous this hunger is, yet we cannot resist the urge to know more.
I'm so glad you're branching out to other soulsborne lore! Bloodborne has always been a favorite and I love to hear the deep dives from you! Keep going
On Mensis. I think they are the older organization compared to the Choir. The Choir Members that we meet are all young, wich makes sense since they were raised in the orphanage, wich was ran by the Church. While the two main Mensis representatives that we can encounter Damian and Micolash are either Mature, or old according their look and sliders. And it is mentioned that Mensis has Elders. While thier use of tools like the Augor of Ebrietas and the Call Beyond are signiture Choir tools, BUT according their description they can be traced back to, either to the Byrgenwerth times (augor), or the early days of the church (Call Beyond). On top of these Both Damian and Micholash wears the Byrgenwerth garb, wich might imply that tey were students there. Plus Mikolash has been in the Nightmare since firs Red Moonm wich happened in the Old hunter days. As the note mentions that in Oedon Chapel: "Rom keeps our lost master fromus", wich is probably Micholash, since Mensis has an investement in killing her, because Damian can be summoned to fight Rom and she is holding back the Ritual. And in Yahar Ghul we can find mumified mensis corpses sitting in the chair way before the Red Moon appears. So the first ritual wich got Micolash into the Nightmare had to happen years if not decades ago.
Oh hell yeah, Bloodborne lore! Man, I really appreciate that you take the time to explain where and/or who you get your ideas from, and where your own ideas and opinions branch off. Looking forward to more videos on Bloodborne, it's a really fascinating thing to unwrap, with so much of the eldritch horror simply spreading due to human ignorance rather than active malignance. Utterly perfect lovecraftian horror.
Perhaps it is simpler than the explanation given, but I had always thought that Ebrietas was the Orphan of the Orphanage, an Orphan of the Cosmos, and that it acquired that name upon her arrival.
The Choir was the one that made contact with Ebrietas, and according to the Orphanage key, the Choir was the Orphanage's creaton. Wich means that the place predates her arrival.
@@dantoki6371 good point. I still wonder if the orphans in question were humans, at least as we would recognize them. It seems a very _Bloodborne_ move to make players think "oh, how sweet, an orphanage" and then "SURPRISE! It's for monsters!" haha
@@styge7512 Yeah, wouldn't put past the Church or Choir to commit some questionable child experimemts. Probably the kids from the Orphanage just became Choir members later on, but who knows, they might have made use the less "enlightened" kids in some other way.
@@dantoki6371they def did. all those weird baby looking things were probably seen as failures kind of reminds me if how the Wesker program in resident evil
So I picked up Bloodborne for like my 13th playthrough. Only difference is now I’m giving my hunters lore. I have three created hunters so far. My current hunter is from the healing church. I say that to say these types of lore videos are amazing!!! It adds so much more depth to an already elaborate game.
Yes please, more bloodborne! You're the true scholar and inspired thinker here. Your passion for the source material always shines through and the amount of research and work put into this really brings it to another level. Thank you Smough, amazing as always. Keep em coming please :)
I wonder if we'll ever get a sequel or spiritual successor to Bloodborne. Arabian or an Aztec/Mayan Bloodborne would be incredible! Thanks for the video Smough!!
Maaaaan, if we got an indigenous point of view game. A bunch of right wing dorks would be bewildered that FromSoft went "woke". Because they are too dumb to understand allegory unless you slap them in the face with it.
Yes! W the first one being victorian Britain themed I feel like they could do a really good colonization of the new world theme since I feel like that fits with the whole hubris and abuse of power vibe that permeates bloodborne
It works so well on its own that I don't want a sequel. Something similar would be grand, but I'm not even sure how they could pull that off. IF they did a sequel, I would hope they explore regions beyond Yharnam, perhaps exploring the aftermath of the events there and how it affected the rest of the world. But a lot of the Eldritch mystery is gone, and I wonder how they could explore the same themes and have it all be just as impactful. Either way, I do hope for a return of trick weapons, rally, and the quick dodge. Perhaps with an Estus style item and some of the innovations in From's subsequent games.
Smough, your work is just an absolute delight. I've watched every single thing you've done for Elden Ring, and loved every second of it. And now you're covering my favourite game not just by From Software, but my favourite game ever made. It's bona fide literature of a game, and worthy of all the analysis it's been given. I'm thrilled you're covering it.
1:00:17 Another thing I think is significant that I swear nobody ever talks about is Imposter Iosefka's choice of words here. Writhe and Rapture are both Oedon's runes, in fact if you kill her before her ascension begins Imp. Iosefka drops lvl 2 Oedon Writhe, which to me implies that she's understanding and repeating the Formless Great One's words in this moment.
I am sooooo excited to see youre doing bloodborne! I have over 900 hours into that game. Its my fave game of all time. Ive picked through so much lore and read everything i can find on it and im STILL learning things 8 years later! Youve become my favorite "lore hunter" thanks for all your hard work!! ❤
Great video as always! About Impostor Iosefka, from the Item description of the chord she gives you I always thought it was the same chord Gehrman and the Old Hunters obtained from the Orphan of Kos, which Willem used to ascend Rom. My theory was that the Choir then retrieved it, as they still have a presence in byrgenwerth. Then the Impostor stole the chord and fled to the clinic to begin her own ascension. Notice how the description states that "every Infant great one" has a chord, so she couldn't develop one by just ascending herself. The only way for a chord to appear would be if a Great One was born, and the only Great one who can impregnate human women, as far as we are told, is Oedon. In Arianna's case they draw special attention to the fact that she is of the cainhurst bloodline, which is closer to the Pthumerians than regular Yharnamites, and I took it as this being the fact that allows Arianna to become pregnant with Oedon's child. The Impostor never talks about or shows pregnancy symptoms, she only says they are "writhing inside [her] head", also in the Impostor's case there is no Infant. Now, it might be because we kill her before she can give birth, and the third chord from the Orphan could be the one that Gehrman and Lawrence used to contact the moon presence and create the hunter's dream, so this is just my theory, but I would love to hear what you think about it.
You picked the right game to go in-depth with the lore, bloodborne never got enough coverage in my eyes and you can see that with the surge of content after elden ring, ppl played it!
I'm really excited for this video, but I'd actually argue that Bloodborne had the most in-depth theories (For a single game anyway, Dark Souls in totality wins), if only because I read all of _The Paleblood Hunt_
Few questions i would love to pose to the community: When we enter into the nightmare of Mensis, we enter through what i would assume is Micolash's body. Everyone in that room is clearly dead. When Mico says "im waking up. Ill forget everything " do you think his mind went back to a corpse to exist for a few moments before dying? Since mico is the "host of the nightmare" do you think the nightmare would colapse not having a host?
I guess that seems to be implyed, yes: he awakes in his mummified body, and dies. The Nightmare doesn't disappwar after Micolash is vanquished. Indeed, his JPN title is 悪夢の主 [Lord of the Nightmare], so even if he's the one behind its conjuring, it doesn't seem he acts as a "host" for the Nightmare.
Bloodborne is such a masterpiece and the lore plays such an intregral role in its greatness. It's so fascainating, especially the Choir. The stacking of planes is very interesting as well. Excellent work as always, Smough.
44:41 An interesting take on this I heard once was that the gesture shows the Great Ones that we're intelligent beings too by showing it our understanding of something universally true that only an intelligent being would do, mathematics, and specifically a right angle. Imagine ants showing us they're capable of figuring out maths on their own, we'd consider them somewhat intelligent too.
I think that “Unseen Village” means unseen by the populace at large and not unseen by the Church. It’d be pretty hard to hide something that big with such a massive entryway, especially since that entrance is literally around the corner from the Grand Cathedral and the Choir’s main base of operation.
A wonderful summary of the Choir's role and place. Some points which occurred to me: - It's always so easy to look at the word "Orphanage" and think of the Choir as experimenting on orphaned children, but yes, when we actually look at the item descriptions, it becomes plain that it was those children who were groomed by the Healing Church into becoming the Choir. - The idea that Impostor Iosefka is dressed in robes she stole from the real Iosefka never occurred to me before, but that makes all kinds of sense. - While I disagree with your interpretation of where the Third Cord you get from Impostor Iosefka comes from (though it does explain why you only get it after the Blood Moon), I love the connection you make between the writhing within her thoughts and the phantasms in Great One's Wisdom.
thanks for helping me understanding the planes of existence - also worth noting how the nightmare layers are on the bottom is because nightmares - dreams - represent the unconscious mind, so the lowest plane of the consciousness
Smough, thank you so much to you, your team and your sponsors for bringing bloodborne lore to the forefront for new souls players, and old ones like myself. Bloodborne was my first souls game and still my favorite, and to see this much dedication poured into deciphering the lore is much appreciated for someone whos always been missing kne last piece of the puzzle. Hope to see what you have next!
One thing I would like to point out regarding the beast rune being a pre-church discovery is that Willem never got to see the invention of Caryll runes. The rune workshop tool says "Provost Willem would have been proud of Caryll's runes, as they do not rely upon blood in any measure" the invention of Caryll runes comes at least after the church split and potentially after Willem's enthrallment to Rom.
One thought that comes to mind with the orphanage. The creatures we encounter at the start of the orphanage are the same creature that is born of Arianna who is tied to blood heavily. This leads me to think that the orphanage was used to take these creatures born of blood away from the parents. The grateful parents ignorant that the chuch and in turn the choir seek to study the metamorphosis that occurs in children born of those who have consumed the blood of a great one. It is likely that the blood used in yarnham is the blood of ebritas as she is physically the most similar to the mutant offspring and is drawing them to her. Perhaps they believe that the children of ebritas will act as a means of making further contact with her and in turn the cosmos.
Had a bit of a thought while watching this, not sure if its already been tread, but I think I might understand Ebrietas a little better than before. So, clearly, the little slug babies in the orphanage are modeled off of Ebrietas. they've got the little wings beginning to sprout, a similar stature, and the weird little face-polyps too. Given the proximity, I'd say it makes enough sense without needing much reason. However, looking to the baby bestowed upon Arianna, it shares the same model. Given how far it is from Ebrietas, and if we consider the formless Oeden the "parent," its figure is a little more questionable. So, I thought, perhaps this form is just the form taken by all Old One "gifts." If that were the case, it would mean that, rather than just influencing the form of these beings, Ebrietas was one of these bestowed babies herself, which may very well make sense. The location she was originally discovered in is the site of a former society which dabbled in the old blood itself. It's not hard to imagine that these old cultures would have been "gifted" a Great One child much in the same way that we were. This could explain her title of the "Great One left behind." If she were born to this plane, as all the other children we see are, it makes sense why she remains and is bound to it. It may also explain how the choir managed to relocate Ebrietas. If she were still growing, she may have been much more reasonable to move, though admittedly the timeline on this is a bit questionable. Hard to imagine them moving her in her current state though. Figure it's an interesting thought anyway.
@@SmoughTown I didn't know that. I remember when the souls landscape consisted of him, vaati, oroboro and sunlightblade. Golden days. I'll check out his game for sure
I think you missed a big detail. The existence of the emissary means the choir successfully contacted the cosmos. I believe most of the choir left to the higher plane, and that's why we only find a few remaining members. The running theme in bloodborne and lovecraftian horror is that the characters get what they're after, whether they like it or not. Everyone wins, but what is victory?
Awesome video, really glad to see these concepts being further discussed. Charred Thermos did a wonderful series about real world correlations to the game as an analogy to the medical procedures and study during Victorian Edinborough, Scotland that mirrored a lot of the ideas brought up here about the clinical nature and attitudes of the Choir.
there's something so telling of how impactful and masterful a narrative like bloodborne's is that it can still provide such insightful and ongoing conversation more than eight years later. even moreso, how it becomes more contextual with our world and behaviors we exhibit within it. needless to say, i adore these videos and the passion that runs through this community still after all these years :,) the point about the orphanage, and the possibility of them experimenting on actual children (whether they be actual orphans or taken from the streets of yharnam), is such a gut-wrenching thing to think about. this is not only because of the church's use of their autonomy and livelihood for the sake of evolutionary research, but the dichotomy of how children are seen and treated by humans in contrast to the great ones, who can't conceive children. children and innocence of the like are taken advantage of and used for the sake of advancing towards a goal to humans, while great ones are so desperate to have their own that they rely on humans to house and carry their children.
Great video als always, smough! It’s nice to see you doing more Bloodborne lore after all these years. For everyone looking for more Bloodborne lore channels I can highly recommend Sinclaire Lore and Charred Thermos. Charred Thermos takes a similar approach to Tarnished Archeologist, focusing on real life inspirations while Sinclaire Lore is a podcast by two wonderful people which has lots of amazing insights while also keeping it very fun and entertaining. Oh, and of course Redgrave, the GOAT of Bloodborne lore.
Bloodborne being my favorite Fromsoft game, it's fantastic to see you do some lore for it. I hope you decide to do more Bloodborne lore in the future. I liked all the Elden Ring lore videos, but I absolutely love Bloodborne lore.
I know the video is not about this, but have you guys ever thought about what the guy we play as is doing in Yharnam? The game has multiple endings but in every single one of them we need to slay the nightmare of Mensis. But why is that? What does the School of Mensis does that needs an outsider to help stop it? They are reanimating corpses plain and simple. Every enemy found in the Yahar'gul are made out of blood or its made by corpses. The first strong enemy in the game is wearing the Yahar'gul Hunter Set and he's surrounding by caskets and a carriage, which led us to believe he's delivering them back to the Bell bearing lady's that are performing the rituals to reanimate corpses. Their entire goal is to revive something, and what is this something? There's also another boss that needs to die in order for us to reach the end, Rom the vacuous spider. Rom is holding back the Red Moon and the missing "something" Queen Yharnam in her asleep consciousness state. Right before the battle with the Mergo Wet Nurse we can find the Queen looking directly to the elevator that takes the hunter to fight the wet nurse. After killing it we hear a baby scream and then stops only for you to receive the "Nightmare Slain" text finally completing the mission your character was sent to complete. Why did I write all of this you may ask, I always thought that the Mensis and Choir had disputes about the method of contacting great ones. For me the School wanted to summon them in our world while the Choir wanted to ascend to their world. When you mentioned the black smoke in the orphanage something sparked in me, maybe Mensis wasn't akin to burn the corpses. He would most likely wanted to use them to bring back to revive an old One. Which old one did they manage to snatch for themselves? The one present inside the Yharnam Stone that the Queen drops when killed. But one thing I never considered was the fact that Rom was used to put a hold in the School of Mensis. What appears to happen is that when Rom is killed the Queen and the Red Moon are "loose" from their prison. When we fight Ebrietas we see a Rom like corpse and Ebrietas is kind of sad for its death. I always considered that Rom was the last of its kin and now Ebrietas is all alone, but if we considered that Ebrietas went with the Choir to the Cathedral, we can assume that she was the one Micolash mentioned that granted eyes to Rom, making him the vacuous spider that was capable of imprison the Red Moon stopping the Beast Scourge (we see Gilbert becoming a beast when the Red Moon shows), and the Yharnam Queen consciousness preventing the rebirth of the One being inside the Yharnam Stone. Which for me makes sense that this was an act out of despair, because it never made sense to me why the Old Yharnam was full with beasts and Yharnam isn't, but if Rom was in fact transformed into a Kin only to stop the Beast Scourge in Yharnam it would be crazy to assume that this was the reason Yharnam didn't had the same fate as its Old self. The only thing that made me write this "essay" was seeing that black smoke that I've never seen it in game lol
Micolash speaks directly of Kos when talking about Rom ascending: "Ah, Kos... Or some say, Kosm... Do you hear our prayers? No, we shall not abandon the dream. No one can catch us! No one can stop us now! As you once did for the Vacuous Rom... Grant us eyes, Grant us eyes! Plant eyes on our brains to cleanse our beastly idiocy!" Now the interesting thing is, in the first draft of the story Ebrietas was actually called "Kos", meaning at some point in development the Vacuous Spider actually ascended thanks to the Isz Great One. With the dlc, however, this doesn't seem to be the case anymore: she was granted eyes at the Fishing Hamlet, whether she was a Byrgenwerth scholar or some peasant who joined at a later time. The connection with Ebrietas in the final game is less explicit, but they do share a bond in being both Great Ones who failed to ascend to higher thoughts. Rom can be found in Chalice Dungeons, meaning at some point in time she explored the Old Labirynth herself. The implication would be she eventually met Ebrietas, possibly the two resurfacing together at the Altar of Despair after the Choir retrieved Isz Chalice. There Rom learns the whole deal with Mensis, casts her soul in the Moonside Lake to hide the ritual, and leaves her body behind and Ebrietas to mourn it.
@@baltoy7460 I'm kind of leaning to the same idea you presented at the end, that maybe Rom was "ascended" to prevent the ritual from going forward. If Ebrietas were to be named Kos that would make more sense, but the Orphan did make a hole in this puzzle. Because Ebrietas is in fact found in the chalice dungeons and also the augur states that they made contacted the cosmos from within the labyrinth, and this created the Choir. So was the choir around during the time of the DLC? When the Orphan is killed we get its Parasite, and the item says that the Parasite actually resonates with lumenwood, I think that the people that founded the Choir returned to the labyrinth after finding the Kos corpse guided by the phantasms and had found Ebrietas. Then brought her back from the dungeon to the Cathedral. So for me the Choir isn't around during the DLC, and they are made after its events.
@@arthurleandro11 I would say the Choir wasn't yet around at the time of the Hamlet incursion. The Celestial Emissaries are basically the not-failed to be versions of Living Failures we see in the Research Hall, meaning their studies are further ahead in time. Indeed, the Orphanage main structure is nowhere to be found in the Hunter Nightmare, the Hall being the main facility for Healing Church experiments. It was likely built after the first bunch of experiments failed, Maria killed herself, and the Hall was shut down. Since Maria was around at the time of the Hamlet, the Choir must be also successive. Also consider the time-frame frozen in the Chalice Dungeon, when Ebrietas is still in Isz, has Laurence having go Bloodletting, Rom lurking in the dungeons, and some Choir members exploring - meaning the Choir summoning Ebrietas is post-Laurence death. So: 1) Laurence departs from Byrgenwerth, founds Healing Church. 2) Laurence allies with Gherman and Maria, they ravage Fishing Hamlet, kill Kos, retrieve an Umbilical Cord. 3) Seeing Kos, Laurence starts to get the connection between Great Ones and the ocean. Research Hall is built, experiments starts [those who hear water in their head], Maria abandons the Hunter career to take care of the patients. Eventually, she kills herself out of grief. 3.5) At some point in time the Orphanage is established as a substitution of the Hall. 4) Laurence and Gherman use the Chord to summon the Moon Presence. Hunter's Dream is created. 5) Laurence keep exploring the Labyrinth in search of good_ol'_blood, eventually becomes corrupted. Bloodletting Beast gets beheaded, Laurence skull is brought back to surface and becomes the main source of "holy medium" for blood mininstration. 6) Orphans takes over, foundation of the Choir. 7) The Choir explores the Labyrinth themselves, eventually retrieve Isz Chalice. Ebrietas and Rom are lurked up to the surface.
@@baltoy7460 I don't think Lawrence actually went pass the phase of studying the Chalice Dungeons. In the Graveguard Robe it's stated that "the watchers who were sented to the labyrinth became mad when they found the eldritch truth." Lawrence is the First Vicar he founded the Healing Church, being a Vicar means that you are one of the heads of the Church. But during the DLC we actually manage to get our hands on the Lawrence skull protected and hidden by two hunters and a woman. So we got proof that he was too much dead before the Fishing Hamlet due to the skull state that we actually touches. My theory is that the entire DLC takes place in someone memory because the giants in the DLC that are using church weapons, have nothing to do with the giants we find in the Cathedral Ward (theres more to my theory but let stop here). When we brought back the skull to the Cathedral a clerical beast on fire will fight us, and the name of this beast? Lawrence the first vicar. I think that Lawrence died before the Fishing Hamlet incident, for me he died in the exploration of the Pthumeru's. Because he drops the Defiled Chalice when defeated in the Lower Pthumeru. I strongly believe that Lawrence became the Bloodletting Beast due to a curse, it drove him to frenzy that made him a beast. The Sword Hunter Badge says "Cleric transformed into the most hideous beasts", and Lawrence was a cleric, he was beheaded (we can get a hold of his skull) in the chalice theres the biggest beast beheaded, for me everything matches. I think the Fishing hamlet DLC happened during the exploration of different aspect of the Chalice Dungeon (Loran most likely and end up in the Cainhurst side of the world) but after Lawrence death and before the Choir was sustained. What are your thought on this?
@@arthurleandro11 The problem of placing Laurence death before the Hamlet, is that we know from a note in Byrgenwerth he and other companions [Gherman] were the one to summon the Moon Presence - so creating the Hunter's Dream. And accordingly so, Gherman thinks Laurence is still alive and begs him to come back to him. The Hunter's Dream can't have been concieved before the Hamlet incident, because it was casted using an Umbilical Chord - Kos being the only source we know of being available at the time. And more importantly, the Doll was made in shape of Maria out of Gherman's wish to see the woman again. And the Huntress must've died after the Hamlet incident, with her taking her place in the Research Hall. So, Laurence death must be successive. The human skull we find in the Nightmare is described as non-existing in reality, so I agree he was the Bloodletting Beast and was eventually slain in the Labyrinth - the bestial skull retrieved by his accolytes and placed in the Cathedral as a source of holy blood. But this was after the first excavations, Laurence establishing the Church, him establishing a first covenant with Annalise [only for later betraying her], ravaging the Hamlet, killing Kos, starting the experiments in the Hall, and conceiving the Hunter's Dream summoning Flora with the Chord. Most people may have been easy to drove insane, but Laurence was a pretty resilient bastard, apparently! To why he ventures in the Chalices once more, eventually becoming the Bloodletting Beast: I think he was trying to find Queen Yharnam, since we find him lurking in the deepest layers of Pthumeru. He wanted the most corrupted blood of all... only, he succumbed to it.
I've followed your channel for some years, remember your coverage of Blasphemous! Amazingly proud of you and your detailed work. You do amazing lore videos.
Always happy for more of my favorite game! What better way than a hour and 20 minute video from the guy who has poured so much love and care into his souls lore We as a community appreciate the fuck outta you
@SmoughTown it's funny you say that, when it's content and creators like yourself that helps keep this community talking and helping each other. Once you get past the layer of git gud jokes, this is the most friendly, helpful, happy gaming groups I've seen
Two things I noticed that support the stacked levels theory. First of all the hunters dream also appears to be a stacked nightmare realm. Second, in the call beyond spell it says a lofty (high) darkness and then notes that even thought they were in this lofty darkness, they failed to make contact suggesting that there was something to make contact with
You've really planted eyes on my brain that i didn't forsee with this one. Mensis splitting from the choir makes alot more sense than what I and others thought about the church's timeline. Also I've always seen mensis' hostility to the rest of the church and desire to force a meeting with great ones as almost a parallel to laurence leaving byrgenwerth believing that he and humanity were more ready for ascension than Willem believed. History repeating itself and accelerating Yharnam's fall. Of course there's alot of implications for history repeating itself in the civilizations we learn about in the dungeons and great ones that were possibly born/made from them on a larger scale than just the church's history, but that'll be interesting to see you explore in potential future videos. Great video as always. Bloodborne is my favorite game ever and your coverage was an absolute treat. Thanks for all the work you put into this ❤
Agree, the Labyrinths are such a cool reminder of how much has come before us. I'm glad you liked my take on Mensis! It was just the conclusion that made most sense to me. Thanks so much James, it's my pleasure and thank you so much for the support.
The pretensions of the Church demonstrate their core problem: they focus on appearances, and as such, are drawn to the old blood and the demonstratable power it grants, and not the more subtle power of insight. One suspects that might have been deliberate: high insight only makes the world more dangerous, after all, while the benefits of blood are plenty, and obvious. So, why not make the rational choice and seek blood? Well, because the dangers hidden by lack of insight can still be there; and the more one relies on blood, the greater the risk of beasthood, which insight suppresses.
@@SmoughTown I don’t see anyone talking about this and Idk if this observation would make sense but I think we, the Hunter, become a god because we use both the blood and insight. While the Church and Bergenworth have opposing views on the Blood, they don’t realize they’re both right. The key to godhood was both in the Blood and Mind. We use the Blood throughout our journey, both in the vials and in the Blood Echoes. Because we get items of Insight we are able to keep our mind intact. When we get the Blood Echoes of the Moon Presence we add its power to our own, but because of the Umbilical Cords, lining our mind with eyes, we get the Insight needed to retain our consciousness upon transformation into the squid baby. Beings like Rom, who presumably did not have used the Blood, become more pitiful creatures that misshapen and relatively weak. Their Insight gave them the key to evolution but the body they gain is lacking. Whereas those that become Beasts have the opposite problem, their bodies are strong, sometimes misshaped, but are powerful nonetheless. But their strength comes at the cost of consciousness. They are mindless creatures acting on primal instincts. The Choir attempts the thing we accomplished. Using the Blood and Insight to ascend. But they were experimental, creating monsters and even their own Old One in The One Reborn. Ultimately the Choir abandoned the endgame of their experiments. They opted to give up their physical bodies and ascend their minds into Nightmare of Mensis. They evolved to become part of the cosmos, not evolve into one the gods as we do. How ironic, we achieve their goals without even trying.
Have you seen the videos by Charred Thermos on the inspirations behind Bloodborne’s medical metaphor? I think he dismisses the in-game lore a little too much, but he definitely provides an interesting take that I’d love to see combined with the eldritch lore side.
Yes! Bloodborne is still my favorite game of all time. I’ve spent so much time in this game and doing my own lore hunting that I can be nearly certain I won’t hear a ton of new info in this video… that being said… I’m STILL going to watch this about 50 times over the course of my next replay xD Always love to see more bloodborne content, thanks for another excellent addition to the lore community!
Hahah thank you Dylan! Really stoked to add to this incredible game and community. Playing Bloodborne again recently really made me appreciate what a stunning game it truly is.
@@SmoughTown It’s a whole lot of information but I think it’s all JUST vague enough to allow for a ton of interesting interpretations. Can’t wait to see what you do next
I beileve the Choir chose to abduct orphans from Yharnam because there was the high likelihood that many of those children were predisposed to holding trauma involving their parents. These orphans deeply desired parental love and care which is why they were chosen to research the cosmos. The church was betting on the orphans hope, passion, and dedication to their research would pay off by being blessed/adopted/reborn as the sons and daughters of the Great Ones, thus giving the orphans the parents they've always longed for. (considering Great Ones cannot have children)
So I just want to throw a comment out on something I see a lot that I think is a gross misunderstanding in Bloodborne. We know that Laurence and his associates beckoned the Moon Presence. But everyone assumes this means they did so DELIBERATELY. And while the phrasing certainly doesn't preclude that, it's also not certain. The flame beckons the moth. It doesn't have intent, or purpose, it simply does. Rotting meat beckons flies. A freshly dead corpse beckons carrion eaters. The word beckons doesn't IN ANY WAY imply intent, or deliberation. It simply means that a thing or action has called another thing or action. When the game tells us that Laurence and his associates have beckoned the Moon Presence, it's not because they are trying to do so. It's because their heinous actions have called it near. The Moon Presence is an utter calamity upon Yharnam and mankind. The Church isn't trying to call to it, they do so inadvertently by creating the circumstances that result in mass violence and people deliberately inflicting cruelty upon their fellow man in Yharnam. The only group that is DELIBERATELY attempting to summon the Moon Presence is the School of Mensis. And they're CRAZY. They have somehow conflated the utter madness the Moon Presence inspires with ascension. But I think that's because they've conflated the Moon Presence with Oeden. And while I believe the Moon Presence is indeed related to Oeden, it is not Oeden itself. For clarity, Oeden is the creator of the Hunter's Dream and the intelligence/power animating the Doll. The Moon Presence is a nightmare beast which Oeden has sicced upon humanity as vengeance for the death of his child (Mergo). The Moon Presence is the SOURCE of the Plague of Beasts. Hence the Childhood's Beginning ending. When you destroy the Moon Presence, you have destroyed the embodiment of your beasthood. And, by proxy, have defeated beasthood for all humanity. You then ascend into a true infant Great One, to be raised by the Doll, aka Oeden. Thus righting the great wrong done when Mergo as killed (likely be being cut from Queen Yharnam's womb by her own Pthumerian people), sating the vengeful fury of the Great One himself, and paving the way for humanity to finally ascend.
Oh my goodness! I'm so happy to see lore from Bloodborne again! :D 1:01:45 Also, one thing I've never seen anyone adress about the celestial children is that... where are their umbilical cords? If Arianna's baby had one, would it not stand to reason that ALL of them would have had one? Sure, one could reason that Arianna as a descendant of the Vile Bloods might have some special childbearing properties, but I'm only half accepting that idea. Be it a mother of the vile descent or not, there needed to be at least some kind of an umbilical cord, simply because the celestial children came from human mothers, mammals. So what happened to all these hypothetical umbilical cords? Where are they? Who has them? Obviously the Choir has them. What did they do with them? I don't know, maybe they consumed them like Fake Iosefka and... achieved something?
Maybe there were a lot of failed experiments using them. The reason we find 3 not counting Ariana is they are all that is left, since the Church and Byrgenworth are basically ruined by various experiments and their mutants.
@@skeletorgames8641 But there aren't just three of the cords. Three is needed for ascencion, but four is the number we find. That's excess. There's a excessive number of celestial children for there to only be three or four cords. There could potentially be tens of cords and they could all be consumed by the choir members.
I'd always thought that the old blood was drawn from ebritas, who if i remember correctly is hidden within the cathedral. Lawrences skull has energy spilling out of it evocative of madman's knowledge, i believe the church was worshipping his skull for the literal insight gained at the cost of his humanity.
I'm sure there's some in-lore reason, but I'm pretty sure the Contact gesture is like that because it's the simplest way to communicate an understanding of right angles and their mathematical relation, ie higher/sentient thought.
I had this idea watching your video, we tend to think the Unseen Village as a hidden place, BUT the Orphanage worked to make "unseen thinkers", so the Unseen Village isn't a hidden place it's the residential area where the Unseen Thinkers live, and these Unseen formed the School of Mensis and their research got to the Mensis Ritual. The Choir controled Central Yharnan, Cathedral Ward and Upper Cathedral Ward: Mensis controled Yahar'gul and Hemwick, but they were expanding as we see the big cleaver dude in Central Yharnam and the forbidden forrest and the snatchers in Cathedral Ward.
I think the one answer we still don’t have is the identity of the Cleric Beast. In the video we called him Laurence, but in the dlc we fight Laurence in the same cathedral we fought Amelia meaning he was dead before we fight the cleric beast. Vaati, In his video, thought it was Ludwig, but we also know that to be false since we also fight him in the dlc. So who is the cleric beast actually? Just a nameless Joe for us to learn from?
This was wonderful! I would love a video breaking down all the info we have on each great one and your theories on them. Bloodborne has such deep and rich lore, im very excited to see more!
Smoughtown, please keep making more Bloodborne lore videos! Your takes are so enriching, and the way you put together lore is among the best there is. I'd really love to get your perspective on everything in this game, and you're doing the whole Soulsborne community a tremendous service. Thanks a million for such great work!
56:57 interestingly you were saying the brain suckers were tied to the choir and the orphanage and it further cements that Iosefka imposter is a Choir member since there is a brain sucker essentially guarding the back entrance to the clinic; Likely where the imposter broke in based on the smashed window.
Yess this is EXACTLY what I expected. I hadnt even thought about how the choir was made up of orphans from the early church orphanage. Or how the cosmos is another plane of existence. Damn dude youre a legend!
Awesome as always! Id recommend everyone to look for "Bloodborne Medical Metaphore" too. I think that guy actually figured the whole bloodborne thing, what made Miyazaki come up with everything in the game.
The music that plays once you reach Hypogean Gaol is some of the most etherical yet bone chilling music I've ever had the pleasure of laying my ears upon
When I was playing Bloodborne and a trophy popped up for discovering the Choir I knew this place was important, also side note Elden Ring is my favorite game ever made I adore that game but bro omg Bloodbornes lore IS SOOOO GOOOOOOOD like it’s actually amazing it’s perfect and my favorite part it’s sooo mysterious almost a decade of this game, being out and still there are questions
Bloodborne remains my favorite FromSoft game, and the only one to invoke and illicit fear when I played it. The depravity, the barbarism, and most of all the desperation of humanity in the desired pursuit of greatness, power, insight, and evolution; all wrapped up in a lovecraftian dreamscape. While the world and item descriptions do a great job of telling the story, most of the Greater questions will be left unanswered. Damn it Sony & Miyazaki, where is BB2, are eyes are yet to open homie!!!
Bloodborne might be my favorite game flavor wise. I was so excited for this video and you never disappoint. Thank you for all your hard work and care that you do!
I always thought the Make Contact gesture was meant to mimic a right angle, expressing the universal language of mathematical principles, which seems like a reasonable way for ultra elevated consciousnesses to communicate.
The Choir is one of the most compelling villainous groups I've seen, and though I find it sad that there's so little of their presence being noted, especially with there only being one npc we encounter who's open about being in the Choir, I do feel it only serves to make us question how much more their influence extends.
I love that Covid-19 collectively reminded us all about Bloodborne as an accidental warning. This game deserves so much praise even 9 years later. Truly a philosophical masterpiece.
You know I've fought just about every boss more than a few times and sure, some of em are really tough, but Holy shit do the choir hunters with the a call beyond and auger of ebrietas always give me way more trouble with their lightning quick reflexes and seemingly maxed out stats
only just noticing now how similar flora the moon presence and prince of death godwyn are, flora is seemingly both alive and death with exposed rotting flesh like godwyn, flora is a flower that was planted on the moon as evidence by her shape with roots coming out of her legs much like godwyns deathroot, not sure where im going with this but its interesting lol
![PASULOL รามเกียรติ์ ตอนที่ 4 นนทกพบรัก [Ramakien Ep.4: Nonthok in love]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tMUQgmZzf_A/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks to HelloFresh for sponsoring today's video. Go to strms.net/SmoughtownHelloFreshJuneYT and use code POGSMOUGHJUN16 to get 16 Free Meals plus Free Shipping!
Thank you for your hard work, I really appreciate it. ☺️😊😄😃🤩😍 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
@@TroyColey My pleasure my friend! Hope you enjoy, and more to come. Support means the world to me
Good job becoming a mensis scholar😁
@@kawailook Hahah Thank you so much!
I AM BINGE WATCHING YOUR ELDEN RING CONTENT AND THEN YOU MAKE BLOODBORNE, LETS GO
This is a testament to the greatness of Bloodborne’s lore. Nine years in and I’m still learning.
100% still so much to uncover
another testament is how much content was actually in this game. it took many years for the tomb prospectors to finally map out all of the chalice dungeons? like 7, I think?
@@cerberyn and they're still finding new shit, the subreddit is still updating lol. It's insane to me
@@amidalaprin4846 and i love every moment of it
Holy shit it's been nine years already? Whoa dude
Faux-sefka was definitely giving birth to a great one instead of ascending to one herself. Her pose was a common birthing position and she’s talking about feeling nauseous and terrible. It’s also when the red moon is out, so her womb has also been ‘blessed by child’
Faux-sefka...love it
Not necessarely, she acts very different from Arianna: rather than feeling nauseated from something in her womb, she feels creatures crawling in her head - a symptom Arianna doesn't share.
I think the idea was she wanted so much to be a special chosen one, that she experiment things on herself until a contact of some sort happened. She *wants* to be pregnant, blessed with God's child [and so some of her behaviour like the birthing position may be delusional], but in the end she is never able to gave birth specifically because all she managed to do was rot her brain with cosmic mollusks.
@@baltoy7460 Ok here come the details on why I think she’s giving birth, its long. I don’t think her birthing ritual was ever going to work out because she forced it through her experiments. The third umbilical cord she drops is because it was a failed pregnancy of an infant great one. Not that it was her own cord as she was ascending to become one herself. Rom was actually able to ascend for real, and she does not drop a cord when killed. Also, we have to munch on cords we find lying around to become infant great ones ourselves, we don’t grow one like fauxsefka. We get the cords from 1: Ariana 2: mergo 3: workshop 4: fausefka.
Arianas kid is the child of a great one. Mergo is an infant great one. The one in the workshop is most likely from the orphan, since the workshop belongs to Gehrman and he was involved in killing kos. Those three are from literal infants and not from someone ascending. At least the first two if you disagree with the workshop cord belonging to the orphan.
Mergos cord description says the cord allowed Mensis to have audience with Mergo. The workshop cord says it precipitated contact with the moon presence, imo implying the cord allowed contact between the moon presence and gehrman. Fauxsefkas cord says that Willem wanted a cord because he thought it would grant him eyes and let him ascend. I think that’s what Fauxsefka was trying to do. By birthing an infant great one she would have a cord and thus be able to ascend, or at least gain audience with a great one.
Rom did manage to ascend, but besides for being ‘granted eyes’, its not super clear how that happened or if it involved cords. She was a Byrgenwerth scholar, so that’s another possibility for where the orphans cord went (I still think its in the workshop though.)
As for Arianna and fauxsefka having different symptoms, we do find Arianna pre and post birth hunched over clutching her head. Could be nausea and brain wiggles. Could be weeping in despair. Hard to say, since she politely says ‘sorry I don’t feel good’! I think the writhing in Fauxsefkas head makes sense either way, her experiments granted her insight.
But the MOST important reason that fauxsefka is definitely giving birth there is because of the themes. Mensis, pregnancy, birth, motherhood, treatment of women, medical abuse, it really just makes sense for fauxsefka to be pregnant there.
An interesting note about the Brainsuckers:
I believe it was in a ZullietheWitch video where they point out that there are stitches and surgical scars on the heads of Brainsuckers, implying that they may have had a phantasm surgically implanted in their brain, possibly as part of the choir's experiments.
God i am so stoked you are doing bloodborne. Other content creators dropped the ball hard on going as in depth into the source as you do. So pumped.
Thanks my friend, i am really excited to be back in Yharnam. More to come for sure
Yeah Bloodborne was a PS exclusive. Also back when "Prepare To Cry" was a little channel that could and Dark Souls was all we knew.
The audience generation on an almost 10 yr old probably ain't high, but I am sure the lore channels were not in their golden age yet.
@@SmoughTown I really hope you go in depth with Bloodborne. So much to learn about not only the game, but also real-world historical medical practices and important figures of old. The game is so rich in inspiration from real-life events, and finding them is another treat Bloodborne teases the players
Charred Thermos makes some brillant Bloodborne content, too. He doesn't post often and I somehow think he is done with his Bloodborne series (around 14 videos) but he has announced a special about the messengers.
@@arcanaobscura3519 Yeh I defo will be checking out this week!
WE ARE BORN OF THE BLOODCLOT, MADE ALBINAURICS BY THE BLOODCLOT
🤣
they do have the pail blood
Our legs, are yet to function
That interpretation of the chalice dungeons as fixed pocket dimensions that preserve moments in time really makes sense when you consider the loran chalice dungeon
Coming back from Elden Ring to Bloodborne is such a treat. And I though nobody makes Bloodborne lore anymore. Thanks Smough Town! 👍❤️
My pleasure John, appreciate you checking out the video
I recommend charredthermos.
I was just about ti say charredthermos
charred thermos is the goat
@@revalone3944charred thermos is overrated. I care about in world lore, not real life influences
"We are born of the blood, made men by the blood, undone by the blood. Our eyes have yet to open... Fear the Old Blood." I absolutely adore Bloodborne great to see you diving into it the game it really is one of fromsolfs best
Honestly, revisiting it has been an absolute blast.
@@SmoughTown It might be my favorite Fromsoft game I love all the Eldritch horror and the gothic victorian design is just gorgeous
God I hope more eldritch arpgs get made man
i like that one, put ''butt,'' in place of 'blood', comedy gold.
"We are born of the Crab, made men by the Crab, undone by the Crab. Our Claws have yet to open... Fear the Old Crab." old man limit
An agony of effort by Charred Thermos blow my mind with his insights on Bloodborne lore. Strongly recommend watching it all
Has the lore changed much since Redgraves book?
He made some pretty big assumptions that I couldn't %100 get behind but it was very enjoyable and well done.
The phantasms in the brain makes a lot of sense. They filled the experiments' brains with water. A perfect home for a baby old one.
adore more bloodborne lore
More to come for sure
Should have said "adore" instead of "appreciate". Then all but one word would have rhymed
yes please !
Oh yes!
Never get tired of Bloodbourne lore. Even after 9 years
38:11 - 40:20 The stacked realities and cosmos explaination BLEW my mind. Never noticed you could see bits of the next nightmare/dream.
Need more eldritch lore in our lives let’s be honest
Agreed
Also side comment to keep ideas from building up in a paragraph, the chimney smoke idea blew my mind, if you pay attention to the Cleric Beast bridge it appears to go nowhere but then you see it before at the Orphanage and I never knew why until now. As for the fall of the Choir I personally still think the Red Moon pushed them over the edge more so, I always felt as if there was some human element up there almost watching us to a degree that just disappears as the Red Moon appears, you can actually see the Orphanage in Central Yharnam (you really can see alot, Old Yharnam from the bridge, Byrgenwerth from the wind mill, The Mensis castle in the frontier, and from the Mensis castle you can see multiple Nightmare Frontiers below.)
Regardless one thing I question is the Celestial children, its possible they were being birthed there but the note in the Lecture Hall says “When the red moon hangs low a womb will be blessed with a child.” This implies a celestial birth is a pretty significant detail, now we now for a fact the red moon is a condition that can only afflict certain areas, as Old Yharnam still exists in Nighttime during it with a normal moon, so maybe its possible that they have their own ways of conceiving children without the ritual, maybe “Making Contact,” but even still wouldn’t Rom hold them back? Or do they control Rom to a degree?
Another thing I wished was covered is the statues, Bloodborne has alot, so many you kinda get numb to it, but some are messengers seemingly evolving into animals, other alien like creatures, and then the Amygdalas who turned out to be very real.
And then in The Unseen village, you see unique statues of little alien dudes (on the side path of the gaol with a wandering madness) and then masses of human faces and arms that are covered in blankets, and when we get further into the village we see people having been sucked into walls and petrified. Definitely some of the kidnapped people probably consumed to form the One Reborn.
But i now question every statue I see as either an artistic visualization of concepts, or foreshadowing of creatures we see, or literal corpses frozen in place.
In the Choir there are several figured that have cloaks on, alien looking creatures clutching their stomachs, if there was a birthing farm I think these would be the mothers. And if so would Odeon be the father of each? Why would they be petrified after the Red Moon forms, as well as the Make Contact corpse?
The Altar of Despair also has several organic like shapes in its architecture very interesting that things seem to petrify when “transported,” like Micolashes corpse.
I suppose for a final thought is Ebritas a child if Odeon? Considering how the newborns look like her as well as seek her maternal affection (given the three before the Celestial Emissary boss room) is she the Holy Medium? Occam’s Razor suggests yes but at the same time its as clear as if Melina is the Gloam Eyed Queen, all signs would point to it being so but its not outright confirmed.
This was such a great video! One additional subtlety I'd add to this discussion is the apparent difference between motivations of ascension for the School of Mensis and the Choir. The School of Mensis is noteworthy for their relatively populist approach to apotheosis compared to the Choir, the Choir's approach being elitist. Much like you outlined, the Choir was seeking their ascension as elites of the Healing Church and using the entire society below them as a resource to that end, while the School of Mensis attempted ascension throughout the entire Unseen village and as a massive group. While the Choir had no qualms about slowly working towards ascension while the city below them suffered and burned, the School of Mensis thought that the ascension of all humanity to godhood could not wait through the current catastrophe, and that is why they took such bold and reckless actions to beckon the Great Ones down to them rather than the slow process of the elites rising to the highest planes to meet the Great Ones on the highest planes.
I think they knew of moon presence, but made the fatal error of beliving the great ones where a unified force.
Too late did they discover that Flora was hunting the children of other great ones, a predator hunting calves of gods.
The collective hunger for more lore and more understanding is the best part of Bloodborne's metanarrative. It shows us how dangerous this hunger is, yet we cannot resist the urge to know more.
I'm so glad you're branching out to other soulsborne lore! Bloodborne has always been a favorite and I love to hear the deep dives from you! Keep going
Cheers Mars! Will do, planning to cover more
@@SmoughTown awesome :)
Io I'm
On Mensis. I think they are the older organization compared to the Choir.
The Choir Members that we meet are all young, wich makes sense since they were raised in the orphanage, wich was ran by the Church.
While the two main Mensis representatives that we can encounter Damian and Micolash are either Mature, or old according their look and sliders. And it is mentioned that Mensis has Elders.
While thier use of tools like the Augor of Ebrietas and the Call Beyond are signiture Choir tools, BUT according their description they can be traced back to, either to the Byrgenwerth times (augor), or the early days of the church (Call Beyond).
On top of these Both Damian and Micholash wears the Byrgenwerth garb, wich might imply that tey were students there.
Plus Mikolash has been in the Nightmare since firs Red Moonm wich happened in the Old hunter days.
As the note mentions that in Oedon Chapel: "Rom keeps our lost master fromus", wich is probably Micholash, since Mensis has an investement in killing her, because Damian can be summoned to fight Rom and she is holding back the Ritual.
And in Yahar Ghul we can find mumified mensis corpses sitting in the chair way before the Red Moon appears. So the first ritual wich got Micolash into the Nightmare had to happen years if not decades ago.
Oh hell yeah, Bloodborne lore!
Man, I really appreciate that you take the time to explain where and/or who you get your ideas from, and where your own ideas and opinions branch off.
Looking forward to more videos on Bloodborne, it's a really fascinating thing to unwrap, with so much of the eldritch horror simply spreading due to human ignorance rather than active malignance. Utterly perfect lovecraftian horror.
Thanks Kieran! I always feel it's important to make your sources clear! More Bloodborne to come 100%
Perhaps it is simpler than the explanation given, but I had always thought that Ebrietas was the Orphan of the Orphanage, an Orphan of the Cosmos, and that it acquired that name upon her arrival.
I think there is also the element of the many children who were taken in as experiments for the great ones which yearn for surrogate children.
The Choir was the one that made contact with Ebrietas, and according to the Orphanage key, the Choir was the Orphanage's creaton. Wich means that the place predates her arrival.
@@dantoki6371 good point. I still wonder if the orphans in question were humans, at least as we would recognize them. It seems a very _Bloodborne_ move to make players think "oh, how sweet, an orphanage" and then "SURPRISE! It's for monsters!" haha
@@styge7512 Yeah, wouldn't put past the Church or Choir to commit some questionable child experimemts.
Probably the kids from the Orphanage just became Choir members later on, but who knows, they might have made use the less "enlightened" kids in some other way.
@@dantoki6371they def did. all those weird baby looking things were probably seen as failures kind of reminds me if how the Wesker program in resident evil
So I picked up Bloodborne for like my 13th playthrough. Only difference is now I’m giving my hunters lore. I have three created hunters so far. My current hunter is from the healing church.
I say that to say these types of lore videos are amazing!!! It adds so much more depth to an already elaborate game.
Yes please, more bloodborne!
You're the true scholar and inspired thinker here. Your passion for the source material always shines through and the amount of research and work put into this really brings it to another level. Thank you Smough, amazing as always.
Keep em coming please :)
You are too kind to me my friend, I am just really happy to share this as my passion. More to come soon my friend!
I wonder if we'll ever get a sequel or spiritual successor to Bloodborne. Arabian or an Aztec/Mayan Bloodborne would be incredible!
Thanks for the video Smough!!
My pleasure my friend!
Maaaaan, if we got an indigenous point of view game. A bunch of right wing dorks would be bewildered that FromSoft went "woke". Because they are too dumb to understand allegory unless you slap them in the face with it.
Yes! W the first one being victorian Britain themed I feel like they could do a really good colonization of the new world theme since I feel like that fits with the whole hubris and abuse of power vibe that permeates bloodborne
@@Shmethan yes, let's marxify bloodborne 🙄 marxist lenses make EVERYTHING better.
It works so well on its own that I don't want a sequel. Something similar would be grand, but I'm not even sure how they could pull that off. IF they did a sequel, I would hope they explore regions beyond Yharnam, perhaps exploring the aftermath of the events there and how it affected the rest of the world. But a lot of the Eldritch mystery is gone, and I wonder how they could explore the same themes and have it all be just as impactful.
Either way, I do hope for a return of trick weapons, rally, and the quick dodge. Perhaps with an Estus style item and some of the innovations in From's subsequent games.
Smough, your work is just an absolute delight. I've watched every single thing you've done for Elden Ring, and loved every second of it. And now you're covering my favourite game not just by From Software, but my favourite game ever made.
It's bona fide literature of a game, and worthy of all the analysis it's been given. I'm thrilled you're covering it.
Thanks Tom, really appreciate that my friend!
Yeah I am super excited to be covering this masterpiece once more and delighted to have you join me!
1:00:17 Another thing I think is significant that I swear nobody ever talks about is Imposter Iosefka's choice of words here.
Writhe and Rapture are both Oedon's runes, in fact if you kill her before her ascension begins Imp. Iosefka drops lvl 2 Oedon Writhe, which to me implies that she's understanding and repeating the Formless Great One's words in this moment.
I am sooooo excited to see youre doing bloodborne! I have over 900 hours into that game. Its my fave game of all time. Ive picked through so much lore and read everything i can find on it and im STILL learning things 8 years later! Youve become my favorite "lore hunter" thanks for all your hard work!! ❤
Great video as always!
About Impostor Iosefka, from the Item description of the chord she gives you I always thought it was the same chord Gehrman and the Old Hunters obtained from the Orphan of Kos, which Willem used to ascend Rom. My theory was that the Choir then retrieved it, as they still have a presence in byrgenwerth.
Then the Impostor stole the chord and fled to the clinic to begin her own ascension. Notice how the description states that "every Infant great one" has a chord, so she couldn't develop one by just ascending herself. The only way for a chord to appear would be if a Great One was born, and the only Great one who can impregnate human women, as far as we are told, is Oedon. In Arianna's case they draw special attention to the fact that she is of the cainhurst bloodline, which is closer to the Pthumerians than regular Yharnamites, and I took it as this being the fact that allows Arianna to become pregnant with Oedon's child.
The Impostor never talks about or shows pregnancy symptoms, she only says they are "writhing inside [her] head", also in the Impostor's case there is no Infant.
Now, it might be because we kill her before she can give birth, and the third chord from the Orphan could be the one that Gehrman and Lawrence used to contact the moon presence and create the hunter's dream, so this is just my theory, but I would love to hear what you think about it.
I just finished bloodborne 2 weeks ago, and a new video from my favourite lore channel drops, what a time to be alive!
Great timing! Hope you enjoy my take
I read "i finished Bloodborne 2"
And i was like WTF HOW?
@@archer3234 Oh i didnt even notice that lmao 🤣
Fear not, the Blood, my Friend.
And let the feast begin.
i was looking for hour long bloodbourne videos and found this channel that is a jack pot of all soulsbourne lore, never subbed so fast in my life
Show me a Smoughtown Bloodborne video in 2030 and I'm still clicking it right away. What a treat
Appreciate that John
You picked the right game to go in-depth with the lore, bloodborne never got enough coverage in my eyes and you can see that with the surge of content after elden ring, ppl played it!
There's so much here. I thought this would be a 30 min video haha
I'm really excited for this video, but I'd actually argue that Bloodborne had the most in-depth theories (For a single game anyway, Dark Souls in totality wins), if only because I read all of _The Paleblood Hunt_
Few questions i would love to pose to the community:
When we enter into the nightmare of Mensis, we enter through what i would assume is Micolash's body. Everyone in that room is clearly dead. When Mico says "im waking up. Ill forget everything " do you think his mind went back to a corpse to exist for a few moments before dying?
Since mico is the "host of the nightmare" do you think the nightmare would colapse not having a host?
I guess that seems to be implyed, yes: he awakes in his mummified body, and dies.
The Nightmare doesn't disappwar after Micolash is vanquished. Indeed, his JPN title is 悪夢の主 [Lord of the Nightmare], so even if he's the one behind its conjuring, it doesn't seem he acts as a "host" for the Nightmare.
Bloodborne is such a masterpiece and the lore plays such an intregral role in its greatness. It's so fascainating, especially the Choir. The stacking of planes is very interesting as well. Excellent work as always, Smough.
Much appreciated GhostPanda!
@@SmoughTown Pleasure's all mine, Smough!
44:41 An interesting take on this I heard once was that the gesture shows the Great Ones that we're intelligent beings too by showing it our understanding of something universally true that only an intelligent being would do, mathematics, and specifically a right angle. Imagine ants showing us they're capable of figuring out maths on their own, we'd consider them somewhat intelligent too.
There isn’t enough in depth lore on Bloodborne. I’m glad you are doing it!
I think that “Unseen Village” means unseen by the populace at large and not unseen by the Church. It’d be pretty hard to hide something that big with such a massive entryway, especially since that entrance is literally around the corner from the Grand Cathedral and the Choir’s main base of operation.
A wonderful summary of the Choir's role and place. Some points which occurred to me:
- It's always so easy to look at the word "Orphanage" and think of the Choir as experimenting on orphaned children, but yes, when we actually look at the item descriptions, it becomes plain that it was those children who were groomed by the Healing Church into becoming the Choir.
- The idea that Impostor Iosefka is dressed in robes she stole from the real Iosefka never occurred to me before, but that makes all kinds of sense.
- While I disagree with your interpretation of where the Third Cord you get from Impostor Iosefka comes from (though it does explain why you only get it after the Blood Moon), I love the connection you make between the writhing within her thoughts and the phantasms in Great One's Wisdom.
thanks for helping me understanding the planes of existence - also worth noting how the nightmare layers are on the bottom is because nightmares - dreams - represent the unconscious mind, so the lowest plane of the consciousness
Smough, thank you so much to you, your team and your sponsors for bringing bloodborne lore to the forefront for new souls players, and old ones like myself. Bloodborne was my first souls game and still my favorite, and to see this much dedication poured into deciphering the lore is much appreciated for someone whos always been missing kne last piece of the puzzle. Hope to see what you have next!
My pleasure my friend and thank you so much for being here and supporting me. I will have more to come, you can bet on that!
One thing I would like to point out regarding the beast rune being a pre-church discovery is that Willem never got to see the invention of Caryll runes. The rune workshop tool says "Provost Willem would have been proud of Caryll's runes, as they do not rely upon blood in any measure" the invention of Caryll runes comes at least after the church split and potentially after Willem's enthrallment to Rom.
One thought that comes to mind with the orphanage. The creatures we encounter at the start of the orphanage are the same creature that is born of Arianna who is tied to blood heavily.
This leads me to think that the orphanage was used to take these creatures born of blood away from the parents. The grateful parents ignorant that the chuch and in turn the choir seek to study the metamorphosis that occurs in children born of those who have consumed the blood of a great one.
It is likely that the blood used in yarnham is the blood of ebritas as she is physically the most similar to the mutant offspring and is drawing them to her.
Perhaps they believe that the children of ebritas will act as a means of making further contact with her and in turn the cosmos.
Had a bit of a thought while watching this, not sure if its already been tread, but I think I might understand Ebrietas a little better than before. So, clearly, the little slug babies in the orphanage are modeled off of Ebrietas. they've got the little wings beginning to sprout, a similar stature, and the weird little face-polyps too. Given the proximity, I'd say it makes enough sense without needing much reason. However, looking to the baby bestowed upon Arianna, it shares the same model. Given how far it is from Ebrietas, and if we consider the formless Oeden the "parent," its figure is a little more questionable. So, I thought, perhaps this form is just the form taken by all Old One "gifts." If that were the case, it would mean that, rather than just influencing the form of these beings, Ebrietas was one of these bestowed babies herself, which may very well make sense. The location she was originally discovered in is the site of a former society which dabbled in the old blood itself. It's not hard to imagine that these old cultures would have been "gifted" a Great One child much in the same way that we were. This could explain her title of the "Great One left behind." If she were born to this plane, as all the other children we see are, it makes sense why she remains and is bound to it. It may also explain how the choir managed to relocate Ebrietas. If she were still growing, she may have been much more reasonable to move, though admittedly the timeline on this is a bit questionable. Hard to imagine them moving her in her current state though. Figure it's an interesting thought anyway.
Certified Bloodborne Classic
Best lore there is. Bloodborne is unparalleled when it comes to how all the pieces work together. Love the ENB name drop as well. I miss him
ENB was the one that inspired my channel, miss him too but he's happy doing his own thing (his first game is on Kickstarter)
@@SmoughTown I didn't know that. I remember when the souls landscape consisted of him, vaati, oroboro and sunlightblade. Golden days. I'll check out his game for sure
I think you missed a big detail. The existence of the emissary means the choir successfully contacted the cosmos. I believe most of the choir left to the higher plane, and that's why we only find a few remaining members.
The running theme in bloodborne and lovecraftian horror is that the characters get what they're after, whether they like it or not. Everyone wins, but what is victory?
Hell yeah! You’re Mother Kos vid is one of my favorite videos, so I am always excited for more Bloodborne vids
I still really love that video too! Hope you enjoy this one my friend
Awesome video, really glad to see these concepts being further discussed. Charred Thermos did a wonderful series about real world correlations to the game as an analogy to the medical procedures and study during Victorian Edinborough, Scotland that mirrored a lot of the ideas brought up here about the clinical nature and attitudes of the Choir.
Yeh I 100% need to check out this channel, been hearing about it a lot in the comments!
there's something so telling of how impactful and masterful a narrative like bloodborne's is that it can still provide such insightful and ongoing conversation more than eight years later. even moreso, how it becomes more contextual with our world and behaviors we exhibit within it. needless to say, i adore these videos and the passion that runs through this community still after all these years :,)
the point about the orphanage, and the possibility of them experimenting on actual children (whether they be actual orphans or taken from the streets of yharnam), is such a gut-wrenching thing to think about. this is not only because of the church's use of their autonomy and livelihood for the sake of evolutionary research, but the dichotomy of how children are seen and treated by humans in contrast to the great ones, who can't conceive children. children and innocence of the like are taken advantage of and used for the sake of advancing towards a goal to humans, while great ones are so desperate to have their own that they rely on humans to house and carry their children.
Great video als always, smough! It’s nice to see you doing more Bloodborne lore after all these years.
For everyone looking for more Bloodborne lore channels I can highly recommend Sinclaire Lore and Charred Thermos. Charred Thermos takes a similar approach to Tarnished Archeologist, focusing on real life inspirations while Sinclaire Lore is a podcast by two wonderful people which has lots of amazing insights while also keeping it very fun and entertaining. Oh, and of course Redgrave, the GOAT of Bloodborne lore.
Bloodborne being my favorite Fromsoft game, it's fantastic to see you do some lore for it. I hope you decide to do more Bloodborne lore in the future. I liked all the Elden Ring lore videos, but I absolutely love Bloodborne lore.
I absolutely will be! Really appreciate the support on it, was nervous to try something new!
I know the video is not about this, but have you guys ever thought about what the guy we play as is doing in Yharnam?
The game has multiple endings but in every single one of them we need to slay the nightmare of Mensis. But why is that? What does the School of Mensis does that needs an outsider to help stop it?
They are reanimating corpses plain and simple. Every enemy found in the Yahar'gul are made out of blood or its made by corpses. The first strong enemy in the game is wearing the Yahar'gul Hunter Set and he's surrounding by caskets and a carriage, which led us to believe he's delivering them back to the Bell bearing lady's that are performing the rituals to reanimate corpses. Their entire goal is to revive something, and what is this something?
There's also another boss that needs to die in order for us to reach the end, Rom the vacuous spider. Rom is holding back the Red Moon and the missing "something" Queen Yharnam in her asleep consciousness state.
Right before the battle with the Mergo Wet Nurse we can find the Queen looking directly to the elevator that takes the hunter to fight the wet nurse. After killing it we hear a baby scream and then stops only for you to receive the "Nightmare Slain" text finally completing the mission your character was sent to complete.
Why did I write all of this you may ask, I always thought that the Mensis and Choir had disputes about the method of contacting great ones. For me the School wanted to summon them in our world while the Choir wanted to ascend to their world. When you mentioned the black smoke in the orphanage something sparked in me, maybe Mensis wasn't akin to burn the corpses. He would most likely wanted to use them to bring back to revive an old One. Which old one did they manage to snatch for themselves? The one present inside the Yharnam Stone that the Queen drops when killed.
But one thing I never considered was the fact that Rom was used to put a hold in the School of Mensis. What appears to happen is that when Rom is killed the Queen and the Red Moon are "loose" from their prison. When we fight Ebrietas we see a Rom like corpse and Ebrietas is kind of sad for its death. I always considered that Rom was the last of its kin and now Ebrietas is all alone, but if we considered that Ebrietas went with the Choir to the Cathedral, we can assume that she was the one Micolash mentioned that granted eyes to Rom, making him the vacuous spider that was capable of imprison the Red Moon stopping the Beast Scourge (we see Gilbert becoming a beast when the Red Moon shows), and the Yharnam Queen consciousness preventing the rebirth of the One being inside the Yharnam Stone. Which for me makes sense that this was an act out of despair, because it never made sense to me why the Old Yharnam was full with beasts and Yharnam isn't, but if Rom was in fact transformed into a Kin only to stop the Beast Scourge in Yharnam it would be crazy to assume that this was the reason Yharnam didn't had the same fate as its Old self.
The only thing that made me write this "essay" was seeing that black smoke that I've never seen it in game lol
Micolash speaks directly of Kos when talking about Rom ascending:
"Ah, Kos... Or some say, Kosm... Do you hear our prayers? No, we shall not abandon the dream. No one can catch us! No one can stop us now!
As you once did for the Vacuous Rom... Grant us eyes, Grant us eyes! Plant eyes on our brains to cleanse our beastly idiocy!"
Now the interesting thing is, in the first draft of the story Ebrietas was actually called "Kos", meaning at some point in development the Vacuous Spider actually ascended thanks to the Isz Great One. With the dlc, however, this doesn't seem to be the case anymore: she was granted eyes at the Fishing Hamlet, whether she was a Byrgenwerth scholar or some peasant who joined at a later time.
The connection with Ebrietas in the final game is less explicit, but they do share a bond in being both Great Ones who failed to ascend to higher thoughts. Rom can be found in Chalice Dungeons, meaning at some point in time she explored the Old Labirynth herself. The implication would be she eventually met Ebrietas, possibly the two resurfacing together at the Altar of Despair after the Choir retrieved Isz Chalice. There Rom learns the whole deal with Mensis, casts her soul in the Moonside Lake to hide the ritual, and leaves her body behind and Ebrietas to mourn it.
@@baltoy7460 I'm kind of leaning to the same idea you presented at the end, that maybe Rom was "ascended" to prevent the ritual from going forward.
If Ebrietas were to be named Kos that would make more sense, but the Orphan did make a hole in this puzzle. Because Ebrietas is in fact found in the chalice dungeons and also the augur states that they made contacted the cosmos from within the labyrinth, and this created the Choir. So was the choir around during the time of the DLC?
When the Orphan is killed we get its Parasite, and the item says that the Parasite actually resonates with lumenwood, I think that the people that founded the Choir returned to the labyrinth after finding the Kos corpse guided by the phantasms and had found Ebrietas. Then brought her back from the dungeon to the Cathedral. So for me the Choir isn't around during the DLC, and they are made after its events.
@@arthurleandro11 I would say the Choir wasn't yet around at the time of the Hamlet incursion.
The Celestial Emissaries are basically the not-failed to be versions of Living Failures we see in the Research Hall, meaning their studies are further ahead in time. Indeed, the Orphanage main structure is nowhere to be found in the Hunter Nightmare, the Hall being the main facility for Healing Church experiments. It was likely built after the first bunch of experiments failed, Maria killed herself, and the Hall was shut down.
Since Maria was around at the time of the Hamlet, the Choir must be also successive.
Also consider the time-frame frozen in the Chalice Dungeon, when Ebrietas is still in Isz, has Laurence having go Bloodletting, Rom lurking in the dungeons, and some Choir members exploring - meaning the Choir summoning Ebrietas is post-Laurence death. So:
1) Laurence departs from Byrgenwerth, founds Healing Church.
2) Laurence allies with Gherman and Maria, they ravage Fishing Hamlet, kill Kos, retrieve an Umbilical Cord.
3) Seeing Kos, Laurence starts to get the connection between Great Ones and the ocean. Research Hall is built, experiments starts [those who hear water in their head], Maria abandons the Hunter career to take care of the patients. Eventually, she kills herself out of grief.
3.5) At some point in time the Orphanage is established as a substitution of the Hall.
4) Laurence and Gherman use the Chord to summon the Moon Presence. Hunter's Dream is created.
5) Laurence keep exploring the Labyrinth in search of good_ol'_blood, eventually becomes corrupted. Bloodletting Beast gets beheaded, Laurence skull is brought back to surface and becomes the main source of "holy medium" for blood mininstration.
6) Orphans takes over, foundation of the Choir.
7) The Choir explores the Labyrinth themselves, eventually retrieve Isz Chalice. Ebrietas and Rom are lurked up to the surface.
@@baltoy7460 I don't think Lawrence actually went pass the phase of studying the Chalice Dungeons. In the Graveguard Robe it's stated that "the watchers who were sented to the labyrinth became mad when they found the eldritch truth."
Lawrence is the First Vicar he founded the Healing Church, being a Vicar means that you are one of the heads of the Church. But during the DLC we actually manage to get our hands on the Lawrence skull protected and hidden by two hunters and a woman. So we got proof that he was too much dead before the Fishing Hamlet due to the skull state that we actually touches.
My theory is that the entire DLC takes place in someone memory because the giants in the DLC that are using church weapons, have nothing to do with the giants we find in the Cathedral Ward (theres more to my theory but let stop here). When we brought back the skull to the Cathedral a clerical beast on fire will fight us, and the name of this beast? Lawrence the first vicar.
I think that Lawrence died before the Fishing Hamlet incident, for me he died in the exploration of the Pthumeru's. Because he drops the Defiled Chalice when defeated in the Lower Pthumeru. I strongly believe that Lawrence became the Bloodletting Beast due to a curse, it drove him to frenzy that made him a beast. The Sword Hunter Badge says "Cleric transformed into the most hideous beasts", and Lawrence was a cleric, he was beheaded (we can get a hold of his skull) in the chalice theres the biggest beast beheaded, for me everything matches.
I think the Fishing hamlet DLC happened during the exploration of different aspect of the Chalice Dungeon (Loran most likely and end up in the Cainhurst side of the world) but after Lawrence death and before the Choir was sustained.
What are your thought on this?
@@arthurleandro11 The problem of placing Laurence death before the Hamlet, is that we know from a note in Byrgenwerth he and other companions [Gherman] were the one to summon the Moon Presence - so creating the Hunter's Dream. And accordingly so, Gherman thinks Laurence is still alive and begs him to come back to him.
The Hunter's Dream can't have been concieved before the Hamlet incident, because it was casted using an Umbilical Chord - Kos being the only source we know of being available at the time. And more importantly, the Doll was made in shape of Maria out of Gherman's wish to see the woman again. And the Huntress must've died after the Hamlet incident, with her taking her place in the Research Hall.
So, Laurence death must be successive. The human skull we find in the Nightmare is described as non-existing in reality, so I agree he was the Bloodletting Beast and was eventually slain in the Labyrinth - the bestial skull retrieved by his accolytes and placed in the Cathedral as a source of holy blood.
But this was after the first excavations, Laurence establishing the Church, him establishing a first covenant with Annalise [only for later betraying her], ravaging the Hamlet, killing Kos, starting the experiments in the Hall, and conceiving the Hunter's Dream summoning Flora with the Chord. Most people may have been easy to drove insane, but Laurence was a pretty resilient bastard, apparently!
To why he ventures in the Chalices once more, eventually becoming the Bloodletting Beast: I think he was trying to find Queen Yharnam, since we find him lurking in the deepest layers of Pthumeru. He wanted the most corrupted blood of all... only, he succumbed to it.
Bloodborne is one of the greatest games ever created, I will stand by this statement until I die. Easily the best of the 'soulsborne' games
I've followed your channel for some years, remember your coverage of Blasphemous! Amazingly proud of you and your detailed work. You do amazing lore videos.
Tha't so awesome, you humble me. So pleased to have had your support this long! Thank you
Always happy for more of my favorite game!
What better way than a hour and 20 minute video from the guy who has poured so much love and care into his souls lore
We as a community appreciate the fuck outta you
Yo that means the world to me my friend I love this community and the lore, and support like yours keeps me going!
@SmoughTown it's funny you say that, when it's content and creators like yourself that helps keep this community talking and helping each other.
Once you get past the layer of git gud jokes, this is the most friendly, helpful, happy gaming groups I've seen
@@TommasoFirmini Totally agree - my interactions in this community are 99% full of positivity
It’s so fun to see you do bloodborne lore! Thanks for making it, I love this game so much 😊
Two things I noticed that support the stacked levels theory. First of all the hunters dream also appears to be a stacked nightmare realm. Second, in the call beyond spell it says a lofty (high) darkness and then notes that even thought they were in this lofty darkness, they failed to make contact suggesting that there was something to make contact with
You've really planted eyes on my brain that i didn't forsee with this one. Mensis splitting from the choir makes alot more sense than what I and others thought about the church's timeline. Also I've always seen mensis' hostility to the rest of the church and desire to force a meeting with great ones as almost a parallel to laurence leaving byrgenwerth believing that he and humanity were more ready for ascension than Willem believed. History repeating itself and accelerating Yharnam's fall.
Of course there's alot of implications for history repeating itself in the civilizations we learn about in the dungeons and great ones that were possibly born/made from them on a larger scale than just the church's history, but that'll be interesting to see you explore in potential future videos.
Great video as always. Bloodborne is my favorite game ever and your coverage was an absolute treat. Thanks for all the work you put into this ❤
Agree, the Labyrinths are such a cool reminder of how much has come before us.
I'm glad you liked my take on Mensis! It was just the conclusion that made most sense to me.
Thanks so much James, it's my pleasure and thank you so much for the support.
The pretensions of the Church demonstrate their core problem: they focus on appearances, and as such, are drawn to the old blood and the demonstratable power it grants, and not the more subtle power of insight.
One suspects that might have been deliberate: high insight only makes the world more dangerous, after all, while the benefits of blood are plenty, and obvious. So, why not make the rational choice and seek blood?
Well, because the dangers hidden by lack of insight can still be there; and the more one relies on blood, the greater the risk of beasthood, which insight suppresses.
Yay! I’m looking forward to your long deep dives into Bloodborne. For some reason this game out of all the soulsborne seems the most mysterious to me.
Bloodborne is peak Cosmic horror. I always reference aspects of this game’s story when talking about the genre. FromSoft nailed it.
Agreed - really captures the atmosphere
@@SmoughTown I don’t see anyone talking about this and Idk if this observation would make sense but I think we, the Hunter, become a god because we use both the blood and insight.
While the Church and Bergenworth have opposing views on the Blood, they don’t realize they’re both right. The key to godhood was both in the Blood and Mind.
We use the Blood throughout our journey, both in the vials and in the Blood Echoes. Because we get items of Insight we are able to keep our mind intact. When we get the Blood Echoes of the Moon Presence we add its power to our own, but because of the Umbilical Cords, lining our mind with eyes, we get the Insight needed to retain our consciousness upon transformation into the squid baby.
Beings like Rom, who presumably did not have used the Blood, become more pitiful creatures that misshapen and relatively weak. Their Insight gave them the key to evolution but the body they gain is lacking. Whereas those that become Beasts have the opposite problem, their bodies are strong, sometimes misshaped, but are powerful nonetheless. But their strength comes at the cost of consciousness. They are mindless creatures acting on primal instincts.
The Choir attempts the thing we accomplished. Using the Blood and Insight to ascend. But they were experimental, creating monsters and even their own Old One in The One Reborn. Ultimately the Choir abandoned the endgame of their experiments. They opted to give up their physical bodies and ascend their minds into Nightmare of Mensis. They evolved to become part of the cosmos, not evolve into one the gods as we do.
How ironic, we achieve their goals without even trying.
Have you seen the videos by Charred Thermos on the inspirations behind Bloodborne’s medical metaphor? I think he dismisses the in-game lore a little too much, but he definitely provides an interesting take that I’d love to see combined with the eldritch lore side.
Wow this was actually better than I thought. This really summarizes the lore well as accurate as possible.
Yes! Bloodborne is still my favorite game of all time.
I’ve spent so much time in this game and doing my own lore hunting that I can be nearly certain I won’t hear a ton of new info in this video… that being said…
I’m STILL going to watch this about 50 times over the course of my next replay xD
Always love to see more bloodborne content, thanks for another excellent addition to the lore community!
Hahah thank you Dylan! Really stoked to add to this incredible game and community.
Playing Bloodborne again recently really made me appreciate what a stunning game it truly is.
@@SmoughTown It’s a whole lot of information but I think it’s all JUST vague enough to allow for a ton of interesting interpretations. Can’t wait to see what you do next
I beileve the Choir chose to abduct orphans from Yharnam because there was the high likelihood that many of those children were predisposed to holding trauma involving their parents. These orphans deeply desired parental love and care which is why they were chosen to research the cosmos. The church was betting on the orphans hope, passion, and dedication to their research would pay off by being blessed/adopted/reborn as the sons and daughters of the Great Ones, thus giving the orphans the parents they've always longed for. (considering Great Ones cannot have children)
So I just want to throw a comment out on something I see a lot that I think is a gross misunderstanding in Bloodborne. We know that Laurence and his associates beckoned the Moon Presence. But everyone assumes this means they did so DELIBERATELY. And while the phrasing certainly doesn't preclude that, it's also not certain. The flame beckons the moth. It doesn't have intent, or purpose, it simply does. Rotting meat beckons flies. A freshly dead corpse beckons carrion eaters.
The word beckons doesn't IN ANY WAY imply intent, or deliberation. It simply means that a thing or action has called another thing or action. When the game tells us that Laurence and his associates have beckoned the Moon Presence, it's not because they are trying to do so. It's because their heinous actions have called it near. The Moon Presence is an utter calamity upon Yharnam and mankind. The Church isn't trying to call to it, they do so inadvertently by creating the circumstances that result in mass violence and people deliberately inflicting cruelty upon their fellow man in Yharnam.
The only group that is DELIBERATELY attempting to summon the Moon Presence is the School of Mensis. And they're CRAZY. They have somehow conflated the utter madness the Moon Presence inspires with ascension. But I think that's because they've conflated the Moon Presence with Oeden.
And while I believe the Moon Presence is indeed related to Oeden, it is not Oeden itself. For clarity, Oeden is the creator of the Hunter's Dream and the intelligence/power animating the Doll. The Moon Presence is a nightmare beast which Oeden has sicced upon humanity as vengeance for the death of his child (Mergo). The Moon Presence is the SOURCE of the Plague of Beasts. Hence the Childhood's Beginning ending. When you destroy the Moon Presence, you have destroyed the embodiment of your beasthood. And, by proxy, have defeated beasthood for all humanity. You then ascend into a true infant Great One, to be raised by the Doll, aka Oeden. Thus righting the great wrong done when Mergo as killed (likely be being cut from Queen Yharnam's womb by her own Pthumerian people), sating the vengeful fury of the Great One himself, and paving the way for humanity to finally ascend.
"I will not forget our adage."
*Immediately forgets the adage*
Not forget it, just ignores it completely.
Oh my goodness! I'm so happy to see lore from Bloodborne again! :D
1:01:45 Also, one thing I've never seen anyone adress about the celestial children is that... where are their umbilical cords? If Arianna's baby had one, would it not stand to reason that ALL of them would have had one?
Sure, one could reason that Arianna as a descendant of the Vile Bloods might have some special childbearing properties, but I'm only half accepting that idea. Be it a mother of the vile descent or not, there needed to be at least some kind of an umbilical cord, simply because the celestial children came from human mothers, mammals.
So what happened to all these hypothetical umbilical cords? Where are they? Who has them? Obviously the Choir has them. What did they do with them? I don't know, maybe they consumed them like Fake Iosefka and... achieved something?
Maybe there were a lot of failed experiments using them. The reason we find 3 not counting Ariana is they are all that is left, since the Church and Byrgenworth are basically ruined by various experiments and their mutants.
@@skeletorgames8641 But there aren't just three of the cords. Three is needed for ascencion, but four is the number we find. That's excess. There's a excessive number of celestial children for there to only be three or four cords. There could potentially be tens of cords and they could all be consumed by the choir members.
I'd always thought that the old blood was drawn from ebritas, who if i remember correctly is hidden within the cathedral.
Lawrences skull has energy spilling out of it evocative of madman's knowledge, i believe the church was worshipping his skull for the literal insight gained at the cost of his humanity.
currently replaying bloodborne after like 5 years and i am all for this
I'm sure there's some in-lore reason, but I'm pretty sure the Contact gesture is like that because it's the simplest way to communicate an understanding of right angles and their mathematical relation, ie higher/sentient thought.
An hour long bloodborne lore video? God does exist
BLOODBORNE LORE! Finally! Thanks, Smough!
Let's go! Hope you enjoy!
I had this idea watching your video, we tend to think the Unseen Village as a hidden place, BUT the Orphanage worked to make "unseen thinkers", so the Unseen Village isn't a hidden place it's the residential area where the Unseen Thinkers live, and these Unseen formed the School of Mensis and their research got to the Mensis Ritual.
The Choir controled Central Yharnan, Cathedral Ward and Upper Cathedral Ward: Mensis controled Yahar'gul and Hemwick, but they were expanding as we see the big cleaver dude in Central Yharnam and the forbidden forrest and the snatchers in Cathedral Ward.
I think the one answer we still don’t have is the identity of the Cleric Beast. In the video we called him Laurence, but in the dlc we fight Laurence in the same cathedral we fought Amelia meaning he was dead before we fight the cleric beast. Vaati, In his video, thought it was Ludwig, but we also know that to be false since we also fight him in the dlc. So who is the cleric beast actually? Just a nameless Joe for us to learn from?
On the theme of aquatic creatures, it has an association with the cosmos, the Eye rune reminds me of a starfish with an eye in the center
I just finished bloodborne, what a blessing to get a smough town video right after that
🤝
those statues definitely do look like flora, they seem to be doing the iconic embrace flora does as well.
Yes, easily one of the coolest parts of the entire From canon, so eerie and distant and beautiful in all its aspects...
Couldn't agree more!
Bloodborne lore now? Plus I just stumbled across your Warframe lore videos.. wow. Great job, we are lucky to have you!
Thank you my friend, Im really grateful people watch videos of mine on different subjects
This was wonderful! I would love a video breaking down all the info we have on each great one and your theories on them.
Bloodborne has such deep and rich lore, im very excited to see more!
Thanks so much my friend! Your support as always is super appreciated. Thinking the next video will be on the Great Ones or Mensis
Smoughtown, please keep making more Bloodborne lore videos! Your takes are so enriching, and the way you put together lore is among the best there is. I'd really love to get your perspective on everything in this game, and you're doing the whole Soulsborne community a tremendous service. Thanks a million for such great work!
56:57 interestingly you were saying the brain suckers were tied to the choir and the orphanage and it further cements that Iosefka imposter is a Choir member since there is a brain sucker essentially guarding the back entrance to the clinic; Likely where the imposter broke in based on the smashed window.
Yess this is EXACTLY what I expected. I hadnt even thought about how the choir was made up of orphans from the early church orphanage. Or how the cosmos is another plane of existence. Damn dude youre a legend!
Awesome as always!
Id recommend everyone to look for "Bloodborne Medical Metaphore" too.
I think that guy actually figured the whole bloodborne thing, what made Miyazaki come up with everything in the game.
The music that plays once you reach Hypogean Gaol is some of the most etherical yet bone chilling music I've ever had the pleasure of laying my ears upon
When I was playing Bloodborne and a trophy popped up for discovering the Choir I knew this place was important, also side note Elden Ring is my favorite game ever made I adore that game but bro omg Bloodbornes lore IS SOOOO GOOOOOOOD like it’s actually amazing it’s perfect and my favorite part it’s sooo mysterious almost a decade of this game, being out and still there are questions
Bloodborne remains my favorite FromSoft game, and the only one to invoke and illicit fear when I played it. The depravity, the barbarism, and most of all the desperation of humanity in the desired pursuit of greatness, power, insight, and evolution; all wrapped up in a lovecraftian dreamscape. While the world and item descriptions do a great job of telling the story, most of the Greater questions will be left unanswered. Damn it Sony & Miyazaki, where is BB2, are eyes are yet to open homie!!!
All the unknowable cosmic horror in the game, but the humans are the scariest part, if you pay enough attention.
So happy to get a Bloodborne video from you!
So happy to do one! Thank you so much
Bloodborne might be my favorite game flavor wise. I was so excited for this video and you never disappoint. Thank you for all your hard work and care that you do!
I never really liked Eldrich horror stuff, but bloodborne does it so perfectly that it’s one of my favorite games ever.
Bloodborne lore is kinda what I needed today. Thanks, *and may the good blood guide your way*
Sponsor commercials hit different with "King's Field: Dark Reality - extended mix"
I always thought the Make Contact gesture was meant to mimic a right angle, expressing the universal language of mathematical principles, which seems like a reasonable way for ultra elevated consciousnesses to communicate.
I think you're right, the only part I'm confused about is why the make contact gesture begins as wrong, and when you shift its right.
The Choir is one of the most compelling villainous groups I've seen, and though I find it sad that there's so little of their presence being noted, especially with there only being one npc we encounter who's open about being in the Choir, I do feel it only serves to make us question how much more their influence extends.
I love that Covid-19 collectively reminded us all about Bloodborne as an accidental warning. This game deserves so much praise even 9 years later. Truly a philosophical masterpiece.
You know I've fought just about every boss more than a few times and sure, some of em are really tough, but Holy shit do the choir hunters with the a call beyond and auger of ebrietas always give me way more trouble with their lightning quick reflexes and seemingly maxed out stats
I always try and jumped backwards with Call and it always catches me with the end of the tentacle haha
only just noticing now how similar flora the moon presence and prince of death godwyn are, flora is seemingly both alive and death with exposed rotting flesh like godwyn, flora is a flower that was planted on the moon as evidence by her shape with roots coming out of her legs much like godwyns deathroot, not sure where im going with this but its interesting lol
Great work on the video! Please make more. There aren't enough in depth Bloodborne lore videos out there.