Mark, stainless steel is notorious for gaulding. I used to work with a company that used stainless a lot, and everyone in maintenance had trouble with it, especially when using other metals with it. BTW, GREAT VIDEO! I have learned a lot from you over the years. THANKS!!!
Stainless steel will gaul if used as a thread that must be removed and reinstalled . It should come with its own can of anti seize. And do not bother trying to find out why in Machinery Handbook. There is nothing about the reason why, at least in my copies.
Mark thanks for sharing! I know many who have used this table as a mill table for custom milling machine projects. Very cool modifications! But you didn't show how you made the nut? Did you just tap the hole? I really wish there was a "acme taps r us" out there so we could all easily change our machines and create new for getting rid of backlash etc. Please share how you made the nut? And I'm curious why you didn't use bearing bronze or brass for the nut?
Yes, at 74 I just finished building my 27 x50 x 1 1/2 story shop almost all by myself with little rented equipment. I find old injuries and energy have slowed me down a lot. I get a four hour day in now and that is about it. Fixing things seems to burn most of my time rather than fabricating! Everything has a history when you are looking behind as opposed to it is all new and fresh as you start out looking ahead. Have a good one.
I hope Vevor is taking notes. They should issue a Winky limited edition table based on your improvements with commission to Winky. 😃. The sign is great.
Good timing. You should check out Matthiaswandel just did a video on this mill table showing how the leadscrews were so poorly machined that they weren't very accurate even after adjusting. I still like this table for what you pay for it. It's like you say it's more of a positioning table out of the box. A machining table with some work.
Yeah, I saw Matthias's video. Pretty much what I experienced. It was useable with DROs but accurately positioning was a pain do to the lead screw quality issues and a 4mm thread pitch. Yep... a cheap table and anything much better would cost 5 times what this Vevor table sells for!
I love the "I LIKE IT" sign. The paint being rough on the inside suits the sign like textured paint on machines. Nice job on the project. A LOT of work, but worth it in the end. Dave.
i had the same problem with stainless screws on some gates under some grain bins. They has steel screws that rusted,i replaced them with stainless and ended up using brass nuts with them and it worked good. that was 3 years ago still work good.
GARY! Ha, thanks. Something weird happened to the paint. I gave it one coat and waited 24 hours and applied a second but when I did it lifted the first coat. So now it has a crinkle finish. Of course then I read the spray can and it said to wait 48 hours. I must have been remembering polyurethane. Thanks!
Drawings, please. I got one of those tables last year from Vevor and the holes in the Y piece you are making were off-center. I haven't used it yet. I need to make a new piece so your drawings will help. Stainless is a pain. It gauls easily and you gotta use anti-seize or lock-tight if you want to get it apart. Great job Mark.
I like it also, this is the second Vevor positioning table video of yours that I've watched, very engaging and informative. You've got a real talent for the story telling, narration and video editing also - I never find myself wishing you would hurry with an element as I do with some other videos. Excellent work as always thank you
Yes. And unlike so many, Winky is very clear with a show and tell at the beginning with what the end result is going to be. No need like so many to first jump to the end to see if the project is something I really have interest in!
Hello sir, thank you for your quick and precise response. For my project I must have a stroke of 400mm. I am therefore going to move towards an alternative solution which only requires me to change the lead screw and its nut, I choose an m18×2. So I keep the flanges, the ball bearings, the slotted nuts and the steering wheels. I could therefore carry out all the machining operations on my lathe. I also have another problem which requires me to raise the cross table because my DRO on the Y axis does not pass between the base and the X screw. Thanks again for sharing the ideas, it was very useful to me. Best wishes. P.K.
Great upgrade! To minimize the flex in the threaded rods and prevent future backlash, I would increase the size of the blocks on the underside of the X & Y tables.
I have done this before on XY tables. You are correct, it will wear a bit slower but it increases alignment problems a lot. I have seen the slightest bow in a threaded rod almost make a lead screws unusable in a 3/4" thick nut.
Hi Mark, Non hardened steel will form fit the nut if it is a tight fit...stainless steel "work hardens" from rubbing on tight threads" and forms a tough gaul that won't conform to the nut.
That makes sense although the threads were not really tight. One comment said to knock the tips off the threads, maybe they were rubbing and didn't feel tight. Either way, I'll stick with steel from now on.
I don't have a ton of experience with machine work, but I am considering doing a similar upgrade to my own compound table and I was planning on using Bronze as my lead nut and either Steel or Stainless as the material for the leadscrew. I am familiar with the costs involved, but the consensus points to using Bronze as the lead nut, due to the wear characteristics. Bronze appears to mate with steel very smoothly, and the bronze nut will wear out before the steel lead screw does. Since the nut is easier and cheaper to replace, a lot of machinery uses this mating tactic. Just my thoughts! I have also seen someone else install bearings behind the handwheels (my table is the palmgren type) which results in a very smooth action.
Brass is better than steel but bronze is the best. I suspect I'll never see wear with the steel in my lifetime however. There is almost no load on the nut in this case. McMaster Carr sells a 3/8"-10 Acme if you live in the US.
Its called (see wiki), gaulling means irritating, bothersome etc (see Mirium Webster) .. you can prevent spalling with antisieze (copper slip) grease or by using dissimilar grades say a 304 (A2) nut on a 316 (A1) thread ..beware there's also a difference in the finished OD, plated screws rod etc are cut undersized to give clearance for plating thickness, stainless is finished pretty much to size so the fit would be tighter.. Ive found spalling occurs most often with power driving fastners at speed, rapid doing up and undoing small nyloc nuts is almost guaranteed . Very good project, many thanks, cant help shouting out stepper motors to power drive or CNC ...
A CNC drill press table? Interesting idea. There are times when I want to drill several pilot holes and then go back wit the final size. The CNC would make that quick and easy although... the setup time might be longer than manually repositioning on a one-off.
Thanks Winky, that is a great improvement. So you are using mild steel threaded rod on home made mild steel blocks. I guess for positioning that should be fine. Perhaps grease the with moly?
Yes and yes, brass and acme thread would have been better but I'd be surprised if I notice any wear in my life time. Like you said, its only for positioning. If I was going to use it for milling (as the name implies) I'd go with 1/2"-10 Acme and bronze nuts
I used an M6 stainless all-thread in the compound slide of my little homemade lathe, BUT, I made a Brass nut for it to run in, no issues with it binding up 👍
I’ve learned that any threaded stainless steel assembly needs anti seize applied liberally. Apparently the lower carbon content of SS increases friction between the molecules, or something. I’ve seen nuts being screwed off bolts seize up under no pressure.
I have some suggestions for you to try on a couple of your issues. I think I commented on your last video to try soaking hot rolled mild steel in vinegar to remove the mill scale. I haven't tried this yet but a welder friend told me vinegar will also remove galvanizing from nuts and bolts prior to welding. I have seen this method also in some TH-cam videos. Another thing to remember is the vinegar can be reused. Don't use it once and throw it out. I have several different sized plastic tubs that I just put the lid on and stuff away until the next time I need it. Also, on the stainless steel, it seems stainless steel will gall with just about any dissimilar metal. If the threads gall and lock up you are pretty much screwed. I never use stainless steel fasteners without putting anti-seize on the threads even if the nuts and bolts are both stainless. Haven't had any seize since I started doing this. I have this same table on my drill press and have done the same mods as you. For now I'm going to leave the lead screw alone but I may do this mod in the future. Thanks for posting these videos. They are very helpful.
If you want to get rid of galvanizing, use muriatic acid on it and it almost instantly will take it off. Just do it outside or with plenty of ventilation.
I will try this... and yes I remember the mill scale comment. Thanks for the reminder I have used vinegar on galvanized items before painting. Its slow but maybe overnight would work well.
Hi Mark, I think that if you remove the X table standard locking nuts and skim the face square to the thread, that you will eliminate the handle wobble. Generally massed produced standard nuts, especially if they are Foreign made, the tapped hole is often not square to the faces. Pop a bolt in the chuck / collet, screw on the nut and face it, you will probably need to do both nuts on both sides. Are you going to replace the X scale now you have the extra 5 to 6 inches of travel ? Great outcome. Regards from Australia.
I was thinking the same about the nut but I was going to make one with some hex stock. As for the DRO,.... well maybe, I have almost 4" more than I did before. Im sure there will be times when i want more but not very often. In hindsight I should have moved the X axis nut more toward the center of the table just in case I ever wanted to do this.
Dang, that is a sweet modification, kind of a fight but well worth it. Most don’t realize stainless typically is not as strong as steel. And stainless is very malleable compared to steel. So that may have some-thing to do with the problem in your application. I don’t like working with stainless because it is soooo “gummy”.
All stainless steel fastener websites should say that you should use lubricant on threads at all times but I assume you did that, so that is a bit odd that they would still bind. In my time, I've twisted M12 stainless bolts til they snap because a stainless Nyloc nut welded itself to the thread, same threading a bolt into aluminium castings. Once they have fused, you will definitely be binning one part or the other!!!
Stainless steel nuts are always tapped oversize to stop them binding/galling on stainless steel bolts. That’s why they’re so expensive, and it’s why you had binding between the threaded rod and the mild steel nuts. Lack of clearance. Nothing to do with the metals being incompatible.(At least, that’s what the cranky old engineer who taught me said.)😃
As a fan of round numbers, I might have chosen 7/16-20 for the screw pitch. A little more granular and .050 per rev. Nice job though, thanks for sharing.
From a machinist standpoint that would have been a good pick although the DROs made the choice less significant. I had some 3/8" acme that would have worked well too. Thanks
@@howardosborne8647 Yes and it works well with dials. I wanted to keep cost down and 3/4 ten is a tight fit. 3/8" is ideal and its 16 tpi. I do have some 3/8" acme but wanted to make the improvement cheap. I actually like it very well with DROs. Very easy to position. My wells Index mill has .200 per turn. I love the mill but I prefer the 10TPI I had on my chinese mill
I thought that was with dissimilar metals, like steel and aluminum... Interesting that steel and stainless steel are different enough, if this is the case. Wonder if the simple solution would be anti-seize compound?
Hello and congratulations on this wonderful work accomplished which must interest many and encourage them to do the same. I am in this situation but as I do not understand English, I would like to know the diameter of the threaded rods that you have mounted in X and Y. Thank you in advance for your feedback. P.K. (French)
I used 3/8" x 16 threads but if you are using DROs it doesn't matter. Of course the thrust bearings are also 3/8" but I'm sure you could use different thrust beings
I used three M12 stainless threaded rod to jack up a 300 kg heavy steel post through threaded holes in the steel base of the post and it galled in the threads. It was weird.
How about a longer piece of that galvanised tube to put your bearing close to the hand crank ? That would reduce your wobble. Mind you, did you notice the wobble in the Vevor setup ? That was 10 times worse.
Extending the tube would have been ideal. I like it! The wobble now doesn't seem to be a problem. I think the solid bar against the thrust bearing tends to keep the threads straight. Oh yeah, the original was terrible. The wobble was bad and it probably had .050"+ slop at the bearing!
What kind of stainless did you order? Over the years I have found 316 to be a bit less of a problem for friction problems with different metals. Also when they galvanize they sometimes enlarge the threads to take the coating. If the threads mismatch they can start giving problems with repeated use. I know that I have had 1/2" 316 ss bolts gall so badly with 316 ss nuts that I had to cut them off after only a few months when I went to take them apart (they had galled at first threading, most likely). Seems like some batches are worse than others, yet they are all supposed to be 316 ss. Might be the chinese as well because I never had this problem back twenty five years or so and previous to that. Even 304 ss worked very well back then. I would like to hear what a metallurgist's assessment is. A drawing would be nice. I bought one of these tables when your first video modifying it came out but other things have put off my getting to it. Now I will do all the mods at the same time. Might have to add a DRO to the project. I am getting older but the lists just keep growing. Now it is a balancing act to see if I will live long enough to use all the projects!!
I suspect its 316 bit not really sure. I used it on my CNC wood lathe because the quality of the steel all thread I was getting was terrible. It worked perfect but I also used a brass nut. The steel all thread I bought for this x y table is much better than I have found before. I got it at TSC. I'll draw the plans and post a short video to announce the availability. I know what you mean about age. I look at life much different now. For instance, I've always wanted to expand my shop but then I think, I might only get 10 years of enjoyment from it and 2 yrs building and another 3 or 4 getting it organized leaves me with 4 or 5 years. I'm almost 68. I may live longer than 20 yrs but will I feel like working in the shop.
Stainless is terrible about galling, especially soft stainless to stainless. It takes an interference fit to cause it, like a nick on a thread or just anything that gives you zero clearance in one spot. At least you didn't suffer thru the nightmare of not being able to get it back apart after it's stuck. Stainless threads need to be loose to keep you out of trouble, run a chasing die down the rod and I always put a little anti-seize on them. If it's a running thread, you can expect trouble down the road and you need to build in a way to get it apart. You can get some hardened stainless all thread that's better, but you're better off with carbon steel. I really like the bigger handles. It turned out nice. Now that you've got it working, toss out a comment if anyone has some ground all-thread to contribute and the size you want. People save that stuff for future projects just like you do and never use it.
That’s because stainless steel threads will cold weld itself to stainless steel threads if under pressure because the pressure case hardens the surface then shears off like a cheese grater allowing for tiny hooks that grab and lock them in place it will still do the same with steel threads against stainless steel threads but only the stainless steel will react but it can still lock up just not as much
Those magnetic dro scales are pretty cheap anymore. Have you ever thought about adding a long one to your saw fence? You could even use it for layout on your saw table with a few attachments.
Yes I have. However I like the idea Jeremy Schmidt came up with. He used a threaded rod with 16 TPI and a clamp that meshed with the threads. So he could unclamp and move the fence and it would be dead on to 1/16" The he rotated the rod with a knob to micro adjust.
Yep, 1/16" per turn, that definitely works. I'm always looking at some way to use one of those long scales. They would have been great to use on a shear or something and they are plenty accurate for most stuff (even though some won't agree).
CNC is totally amazing but for making a couple parts here and there I'm not sure its the best option. I made a CNC wood lathe and after a few years I finally got the software figured out. For wood, feeds speed and rpm are super forgiving plus its only 2 axis.
I agree , i do enjoy my manual machines , and after 12 years still havnt built a cnc mill. Maybe one day ! Enjoy your videos and learning from them. Still so much to learn!
@WinkysWorkshop I would replace the nut with an anti backlash nut, throw away the cast one. The ends on the SFU1604 look similar to the ends on the stock leadscrew. I'm also tempted to order SFU1602 instead for greater resolution, more similar to your mod.
@@Phar2krazee Well, as long as the table locks and you have a DRO the backlash isn't an issue unless you are going to use it for CNC. No backlash is nice however
@@Phar2krazee I have not had much luck milling with a drill press. It will work for wood but not many drill presses have the the rigidity needed to mill metal.
If you google stainless steel threads, you'll find that you should lubricate them first to stop them from galling. There is a nickle gel lube that they reccomend. Being in the comment section I can only tell you to look. As I don't want to fall foul of google's policies.
They were lubricated but not with the nickel gel. I think I'll just go with steel next time. I actually bought that stainless all thread for my CNC wood lathe. It has a brass nut and works perfect. Thanks for the info.
Probably you need to scrape the ways on the saddle and table. There is no parallelism and there is twist as well. I have two sets of the same model an scraped them using a granite surface plate. I changed the nuts and the screws with ACME, what come with it is crap.
Yeah, crap is a good definition for the lead screws. I'm not too worried about scraping or a warp. This is for positioning on a drill press. If I'm within .003" to .004" thats usually good enough. If I need better I'll use my mill.
The problem surprised me. I used stainless on my CNC wood lathe cross slide with a brass nut and it worked great. The only reason I went with stainless on the lathe was that I could not find a good quality steel all thread. Fortunately I found some now. I won't be using stainless again.
The original leadscrew on your y axis had a left hand thread. This meant that both axes worked in the conventional direction (that's good), which is that clockwise turns on the feed handle move the work away from you. You seem to have used right handed thread on this axis which now means that it moves backwards. This is a recipe for disaster. I have used cheap x-y tables that actually come like like this, and I can tell you that it's not only bloody irritating, but one has to think very carefully each time the y axis is moved. I think you'll seriously regret that you didn't use LH studding the first time you bugger up a job by turning the handle the wrong way. Also, I don't understand why you got rid of the thrust bearings, and while you were at it, why didn't you make a split feed nut so you could adjust for backlash? BTW stainless galling is thought to be due to the nickel content. We used silver plating and graphite lube to prevent threads siezing in aqueous environments. There are anti-sieze agents available for fresh-air use if you must use ss.
I just reprogrammed my brain on the RH screw, HA. Yeah, I agree LH would have been better. As for the back lash goes, 1) I have DROs so it doesn't really matter much and 2) standard thread have very little backlash, as long as they are not under load they do very well. In fact I have 3/8"-16 in my CNC wood lathe and it has maybe .006" even after many hours of use. The backlash on this table is about the same. That is better than both my South Bend lathe and my wells index mill.
i have the same chinese table and the same problem too, and i had to modify the play on the axis too. chinese tools are worthless, you always have to modify everything. these tables aren't even finished, I had to drill holes to let the coolant out....plus I don't have a lathe or milling machine, so it's hard to do machining.
To a point I agree. It always amazes me how most parts of the tools are good and then they totally mess up another aspect. The castings and machining on the table itself is fairly good but the lead screws are 100% junk. However, like I said at the beginning of the video, it's not really well suited for a mill table but fine for a drill press and drilling holes if you fix the lead screw and or add a DRO. It's super hard to find a good X Y Table for a drill press and if you do, it will be at least $600. The modifications I made were cheap so I guess I'll save money and do the labor.
@@WinkysWorkshop I have a much better one that cost me 250 dollars équivalent in euros and with 3 handles as opposed to 2 on this one. and the Chinese sellers often put 3 handles in the photo whereas when you ask around, it only has 2.
I take the view that, because Chinese stuff is cheap and cheerful, accept that you are buying a kit that needs fitting and finishing. Then it kind of makes sense.
as others have already stated stainless steel is a terrible material for galling. It is useless for transit type threads or bushing/bearings or anything of that nature. It would be ok if acetal copolymer plastic or delrin leadscrew nuts were being used but put it through mild steel nuts or even stainless nuts and it will surface gall/tear and seize.
Nice improvment. Can you explain why you think it is not a milling table but a positioning table., do you think the border is not rigid enough, or what is the problem? Have seen this video( th-cam.com/video/k1iGxPwpzOc/w-d-xo.html) it looks like it is milling okay?
I probably should have elaborated on this. The mill table is probably strong enough for light milling but a drill press is not. You could probably bolt this table down to a mill table and use it to mill but why? You might do light milling on aluminum on a drill press and wood word fairy well but steel is not a good idea.
@@WinkysWorkshop The why is... 90 USD for a X and Y axis is impossible to beat , so you only have to build a Z-axis. Diy Z-axis could maybe been done for 100 to 150 usd . The video i link to is a DIY Z-axis.
@@larspetersen2688 Sorry I overlooked the link before. That guy did a nice job on both his mill and the table. He put an enormous amount of work into both. In my opinion, very admirable but not with his effort. Weight and rigidity are super important on a mill and that's hard to achieve in a home shop. My 1200 lb wells index is considered to be a very good mill but using anything over a 1/2" end mill is pushing it. I don't want to sound critical of the effort made on this mill, in fact it is impressive... just not a logical approach.
Mark, stainless steel is notorious for gaulding. I used to work with a company that used stainless a lot, and everyone in maintenance had trouble with it, especially when using other metals with it. BTW, GREAT VIDEO! I have learned a lot from you over the years. THANKS!!!
Thanks for the info! And thanks for the comment!
I second that.
Only because you beat me to it. 😂
Stainless steel will gaul if used as a thread that must be removed and reinstalled . It should come with its own can of anti seize. And do not bother trying to find out why in Machinery Handbook. There is nothing about the reason why, at least in my copies.
@@37yearsofanythingisenough39 This seems to be what many are saying... I'm done with stainless.
Mark thanks for sharing! I know many who have used this table as a mill table for custom milling machine projects. Very cool modifications! But you didn't show how you made the nut? Did you just tap the hole? I really wish there was a "acme taps r us" out there so we could all easily change our machines and create new for getting rid of backlash etc. Please share how you made the nut? And I'm curious why you didn't use bearing bronze or brass for the nut?
I just got done binging this table series this is awesome timing!
That is great!
Hello Winky, awesome modifications, thanks for sharing with your viewers, appreciated, cheers from me. 😷👍👍👍👍👍
Thanks Me :o)
Yes, at 74 I just finished building my 27 x50 x 1 1/2 story shop almost all by myself with little rented equipment. I find old injuries and energy have slowed me down a lot. I get a four hour day in now and that is about it. Fixing things seems to burn most of my time rather than fabricating! Everything has a history when you are looking behind as opposed to it is all new and fresh as you start out looking ahead. Have a good one.
I'm almost 68. I have less energy but arthritis is the biggest problem.
Very interesting watch!
Thanks
Nice upgrade Mark, enjoyed. 👍👍
Thanks!
Love the Troubleshooting! Way to Make It Work
Thanks! I was getting worried. Ha
I hope Vevor is taking notes. They should issue a Winky limited edition table based on your improvements with commission to Winky. 😃.
The sign is great.
Vevor seems like they are interested in my input but I suspect they will do nothing. Hopefully I am wrong, thanks!
Other than the castings you have built the whole thing yourself. Thanks for the video keep on keeping on.
That castings ate the hard part :o)
Good timing. You should check out Matthiaswandel just did a video on this mill table showing how the leadscrews were so poorly machined that they weren't very accurate even after adjusting. I still like this table for what you pay for it. It's like you say it's more of a positioning table out of the box. A machining table with some work.
Yeah, I saw Matthias's video. Pretty much what I experienced. It was useable with DROs but accurately positioning was a pain do to the lead screw quality issues and a 4mm thread pitch. Yep... a cheap table and anything much better would cost 5 times what this Vevor table sells for!
I Like It 👍🎉👍
Me too :o)@@joell439
I love the "I LIKE IT" sign. The paint being rough on the inside suits the sign like textured paint on machines.
Nice job on the project. A LOT of work, but worth it in the end.
Dave.
Thanks, that paint was not intended but after it happened I like it (didn't wait long enough between coats)
i had the same problem with stainless screws on some gates under some grain bins. They has steel screws that rusted,i replaced them with stainless and ended up using brass nuts with them and it worked good. that was 3 years ago still work good.
not with false photos, and unfinished products without being informed. plus mine arrived with rust all over it
I've had the same experience in reverse. I used stainless with brass and it worked great.
You might need to explain what you are talking about.
I in ki baby mk mk pc la on@@passionbricolage712
Thanks for another amazing video.
Thanks for watching!
The sign looks great with paint job.
GARY! Ha, thanks. Something weird happened to the paint. I gave it one coat and waited 24 hours and applied a second but when I did it lifted the first coat. So now it has a crinkle finish. Of course then I read the spray can and it said to wait 48 hours. I must have been remembering polyurethane. Thanks!
Congratulations! I like it! 🇧🇷🇧🇷
Thank you! 😃
Drawings, please. I got one of those tables last year from Vevor and the holes in the Y piece you are making were off-center. I haven't used it yet. I need to make a new piece so your drawings will help. Stainless is a pain. It gauls easily and you gotta use anti-seize or lock-tight if you want to get it apart. Great job Mark.
Let me see what i can do.
Good video,Mark.I have the same table and the same probleme.I was not expecting so much work needed to modify it.Much better anyway.Thank you.
Yeah, the stainless screw binding was unexpected but a lot of of the work was making the brackets t allow more travel.
Always learn something from Mr Winky's video.
Thanks
Winky's,that is top recording- 🤗
Thank you sir!
I like it also, this is the second Vevor positioning table video of yours that I've watched, very engaging and informative.
You've got a real talent for the story telling, narration and video editing also - I never find myself wishing you would hurry with an element as I do with some other videos.
Excellent work as always thank you
Awesome comment, thank you!
Yes. And unlike so many, Winky is very clear with a show and tell at the beginning with what the end result is going to be. No need like so many to first jump to the end to see if the project is something I really have interest in!
Thanks! @@ronkellis769
Enjoyed!
Thanks!
Hello sir, thank you for your quick and precise response. For my project I must have a stroke of 400mm. I am therefore going to move towards an alternative solution which only requires me to change the lead screw and its nut, I choose an m18×2. So I keep the flanges, the ball bearings, the slotted nuts and the steering wheels. I could therefore carry out all the machining operations on my lathe. I also have another problem which requires me to raise the cross table because my DRO on the Y axis does not pass between the base and the X screw. Thanks again for sharing the ideas, it was very useful to me. Best wishes. P.K.
Your very welcome, let me know how it works out.
Great upgrade! To minimize the flex in the threaded rods and prevent future backlash, I would increase the size of the blocks on the underside of the X & Y tables.
I have done this before on XY tables. You are correct, it will wear a bit slower but it increases alignment problems a lot. I have seen the slightest bow in a threaded rod almost make a lead screws unusable in a 3/4" thick nut.
BUEN TRABAJO AMIGO COMO SIEMPRE
Gracias
This is the perfect excuse to design/build a power feed LOL
Haha... maybe so. I' sure the motor could be smaller than the handwheels.
Nice video! As you say " I like it ".
Right on!
Another useful improvement on the mill table. Fix or replace that wobbly hand wheel to while you’re at it.
Thanks! The remaining wobble is tolerable. Probably a slightly bent all thread.
Hi Mark, Non hardened steel will form fit the nut if it is a tight fit...stainless steel "work hardens" from rubbing on tight threads" and forms a tough gaul that won't conform to the nut.
That makes sense although the threads were not really tight. One comment said to knock the tips off the threads, maybe they were rubbing and didn't feel tight. Either way, I'll stick with steel from now on.
I don't have a ton of experience with machine work, but I am considering doing a similar upgrade to my own compound table and I was planning on using Bronze as my lead nut and either Steel or Stainless as the material for the leadscrew. I am familiar with the costs involved, but the consensus points to using Bronze as the lead nut, due to the wear characteristics. Bronze appears to mate with steel very smoothly, and the bronze nut will wear out before the steel lead screw does. Since the nut is easier and cheaper to replace, a lot of machinery uses this mating tactic. Just my thoughts!
I have also seen someone else install bearings behind the handwheels (my table is the palmgren type) which results in a very smooth action.
Brass is better than steel but bronze is the best. I suspect I'll never see wear with the steel in my lifetime however. There is almost no load on the nut in this case. McMaster Carr sells a 3/8"-10 Acme if you live in the US.
Yup! I like it too. 😀
Thanks :o)
Its called (see wiki), gaulling means irritating, bothersome etc (see Mirium Webster) .. you can prevent spalling with antisieze (copper slip) grease or by using dissimilar grades say a 304 (A2) nut on a 316 (A1) thread ..beware there's also a difference in the finished OD, plated screws rod etc are cut undersized to give clearance for plating thickness, stainless is finished pretty much to size so the fit would be tighter.. Ive found spalling occurs most often with power driving fastners at speed, rapid doing up and undoing small nyloc nuts is almost guaranteed . Very good project, many thanks, cant help shouting out stepper motors to power drive or CNC ...
A CNC drill press table? Interesting idea. There are times when I want to drill several pilot holes and then go back wit the final size. The CNC would make that quick and easy although... the setup time might be longer than manually repositioning on a one-off.
Thanks Winky, that is a great improvement. So you are using mild steel threaded rod on home made mild steel blocks. I guess for positioning that should be fine. Perhaps grease the with moly?
Yes and yes, brass and acme thread would have been better but I'd be surprised if I notice any wear in my life time. Like you said, its only for positioning. If I was going to use it for milling (as the name implies) I'd go with 1/2"-10 Acme and bronze nuts
I used an M6 stainless all-thread in the compound slide of my little homemade lathe, BUT, I made a Brass nut for it to run in, no issues with it binding up 👍
Same here, I used it in my CNC wood lathe with a brass nut. In fact that is why I had the 3/8 stainless.
I like it too...! Another great video, thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it, thanks
I’ve learned that any threaded stainless steel assembly needs anti seize applied liberally. Apparently the lower carbon content of SS increases friction between the molecules, or something. I’ve seen nuts being screwed off bolts seize up under no pressure.
Thanks, I'm hearing the same from several. I'll stick to steel unless I really need corrosion protection.
I have some suggestions for you to try on a couple of your issues. I think I commented on your last video to try soaking hot rolled mild steel in vinegar to remove the mill scale. I haven't tried this yet but a welder friend told me vinegar will also remove galvanizing from nuts and bolts prior to welding. I have seen this method also in some TH-cam videos. Another thing to remember is the vinegar can be reused. Don't use it once and throw it out. I have several different sized plastic tubs that I just put the lid on and stuff away until the next time I need it. Also, on the stainless steel, it seems stainless steel will gall with just about any dissimilar metal. If the threads gall and lock up you are pretty much screwed. I never use stainless steel fasteners without putting anti-seize on the threads even if the nuts and bolts are both stainless. Haven't had any seize since I started doing this. I have this same table on my drill press and have done the same mods as you. For now I'm going to leave the lead screw alone but I may do this mod in the future. Thanks for posting these videos. They are very helpful.
If you want to get rid of galvanizing, use muriatic acid on it and it almost instantly will take it off. Just do it outside or with plenty of ventilation.
I will try this... and yes I remember the mill scale comment. Thanks for the reminder I have used vinegar on galvanized items before painting. Its slow but maybe overnight would work well.
@@Hoaxer51 Sulfuric works just as fast removing zinc, but doesn't fume as much . Muriatic (HCL) is better for mill scale though, it's really fast.
Hi Mark, I think that if you remove the X table standard locking nuts and skim the face square to the thread, that you will eliminate the handle wobble. Generally massed produced standard nuts, especially if they are Foreign made, the tapped hole is often not square to the faces. Pop a bolt in the chuck / collet, screw on the nut and face it, you will probably need to do both nuts on both sides. Are you going to replace the X scale now you have the extra 5 to 6 inches of travel ? Great outcome. Regards from Australia.
I was thinking the same about the nut but I was going to make one with some hex stock. As for the DRO,.... well maybe, I have almost 4" more than I did before. Im sure there will be times when i want more but not very often. In hindsight I should have moved the X axis nut more toward the center of the table just in case I ever wanted to do this.
Dang, that is a sweet modification, kind of a fight but well worth it. Most don’t realize stainless typically is not as strong as steel. And stainless is very malleable compared to steel. So that may have some-thing to do with the problem in your application. I don’t like working with stainless because it is soooo “gummy”.
Thanks... yeah, stainless will also case harden very easy. I think I'll avoid it in the future.
I like it !!
:o)
I like it!😀
Thanks!
All stainless steel fastener websites should say that you should use lubricant on threads at all times but I assume you did that, so that is a bit odd that they would still bind. In my time, I've twisted M12 stainless bolts til they snap because a stainless Nyloc nut welded itself to the thread, same threading a bolt into aluminium castings. Once they have fused, you will definitely be binning one part or the other!!!
I'm pretty much done with stainless unless absolutely needed. Thanks
Stainless steel nuts are always tapped oversize to stop them binding/galling on stainless steel bolts. That’s why they’re so expensive, and it’s why you had binding between the threaded rod and the mild steel nuts. Lack of clearance. Nothing to do with the metals being incompatible.(At least, that’s what the cranky old engineer who taught me said.)😃
I've reached the same conclusion. Thanks
Yes the Gaulding issue I agree especially on Boats where salt water is involved Bad News 😮
Amazing... it was terrible
As a fan of round numbers, I might have chosen 7/16-20 for the screw pitch. A little more granular and .050 per rev. Nice job though, thanks for sharing.
From a machinist standpoint that would have been a good pick although the DROs made the choice less significant. I had some 3/8" acme that would have worked well too. Thanks
@@WinkysWorkshop 10 tpi Acme is favourite for lead screws. 1 turn equals 100 thou...10 turns 1 inch.
@@howardosborne8647 Yes and it works well with dials. I wanted to keep cost down and 3/4 ten is a tight fit. 3/8" is ideal and its 16 tpi. I do have some 3/8" acme but wanted to make the improvement cheap. I actually like it very well with DROs. Very easy to position. My wells Index mill has .200 per turn. I love the mill but I prefer the 10TPI I had on my chinese mill
It's a known characteristic of stainless that threads in it are prone to galling.
I thought that was with dissimilar metals, like steel and aluminum... Interesting that steel and stainless steel are different enough, if this is the case. Wonder if the simple solution would be anti-seize compound?
Yeah... not using it again, thanks
The anti-seize might work but the steel worked well.
Espescially so with the softer more gummy grades like 316. it does not make good material for transit threads or bushings.
Hello and congratulations on this wonderful work accomplished which must interest many and encourage them to do the same. I am in this situation but as I do not understand English, I would like to know the diameter of the threaded rods that you have mounted in X and Y. Thank you in advance for your feedback. P.K. (French)
I used 3/8" x 16 threads but if you are using DROs it doesn't matter. Of course the thrust bearings are also 3/8" but I'm sure you could use different thrust beings
I used three M12 stainless threaded rod to jack up a 300 kg heavy steel post through threaded holes in the steel base of the post and it galled in the threads. It was weird.
agree
How about a longer piece of that galvanised tube to put your bearing close to the hand crank ?
That would reduce your wobble.
Mind you, did you notice the wobble in the Vevor setup ?
That was 10 times worse.
Extending the tube would have been ideal. I like it! The wobble now doesn't seem to be a problem. I think the solid bar against the thrust bearing tends to keep the threads straight. Oh yeah, the original was terrible. The wobble was bad and it probably had .050"+ slop at the bearing!
What kind of stainless did you order? Over the years I have found 316 to be a bit less of a problem for friction problems with different metals. Also when they galvanize they sometimes enlarge the threads to take the coating. If the threads mismatch they can start giving problems with repeated use. I know that I have had 1/2" 316 ss bolts gall so badly with 316 ss nuts that I had to cut them off after only a few months when I went to take them apart (they had galled at first threading, most likely). Seems like some batches are worse than others, yet they are all supposed to be 316 ss. Might be the chinese as well because I never had this problem back twenty five years or so and previous to that. Even 304 ss worked very well back then. I would like to hear what a metallurgist's assessment is.
A drawing would be nice. I bought one of these tables when your first video modifying it came out but other things have put off my getting to it. Now I will do all the mods at the same time. Might have to add a DRO to the project. I am getting older but the lists just keep growing. Now it is a balancing act to see if I will live long enough to use all the projects!!
I suspect its 316 bit not really sure. I used it on my CNC wood lathe because the quality of the steel all thread I was getting was terrible. It worked perfect but I also used a brass nut. The steel all thread I bought for this x y table is much better than I have found before. I got it at TSC. I'll draw the plans and post a short video to announce the availability. I know what you mean about age. I look at life much different now. For instance, I've always wanted to expand my shop but then I think, I might only get 10 years of enjoyment from it and 2 yrs building and another 3 or 4 getting it organized leaves me with 4 or 5 years. I'm almost 68. I may live longer than 20 yrs but will I feel like working in the shop.
Stainless threads are not meant for continues motion they gall. Torque them down once and hope you never have to move them again.
Yeah... stainless has it's place but not for threaded rod... for me anyway.
where did the DRO come from...I have the Igaging ones which are similar but haven't seen these displays before
Amazon... amzn.to/4b8uVDh
amzn.to/3RZSeq5
Stainless is terrible about galling, especially soft stainless to stainless. It takes an interference fit to cause it, like a nick on a thread or just anything that gives you zero clearance in one spot. At least you didn't suffer thru the nightmare of not being able to get it back apart after it's stuck. Stainless threads need to be loose to keep you out of trouble, run a chasing die down the rod and I always put a little anti-seize on them. If it's a running thread, you can expect trouble down the road and you need to build in a way to get it apart. You can get some hardened stainless all thread that's better, but you're better off with carbon steel.
I really like the bigger handles. It turned out nice. Now that you've got it working, toss out a comment if anyone has some ground all-thread to contribute and the size you want. People save that stuff for future projects just like you do and never use it.
Ha... yep, I proved what you said, no more stainless for me.
I’m talking about the gilding of the stainless steel lead screw he had a problem with.
Right. Got it
What happened to the other table you had like this? Where you made new screws and dial and all that.. about a year ago??
I still have that on my other drill press. This newly restored drill press is nice to use but I keep the other around for drilling larger items.
@@WinkysWorkshop I bought this same vevor table.. and it came with a broken lead-nut, just like yours did. :(
Stainless seems to keep sharp peaks on the threads. It'll cut into unhardened steel. If you have to, knock the edge down a bit with a file.
Yeah... I think you are right. I'll stick to steel, thanks!
That’s because stainless steel threads will cold weld itself to stainless steel threads if under pressure because the pressure case hardens the surface then shears off like a cheese grater allowing for tiny hooks that grab and lock them in place it will still do the same with steel threads against stainless steel threads but only the stainless steel will react but it can still lock up just not as much
Interesting... I'm not using stainless again.
Those magnetic dro scales are pretty cheap anymore. Have you ever thought about adding a long one to your saw fence? You could even use it for layout on your saw table with a few attachments.
Yes I have. However I like the idea Jeremy Schmidt came up with. He used a threaded rod with 16 TPI and a clamp that meshed with the threads. So he could unclamp and move the fence and it would be dead on to 1/16" The he rotated the rod with a knob to micro adjust.
Yep, 1/16" per turn, that definitely works. I'm always looking at some way to use one of those long scales. They would have been great to use on a shear or something and they are plenty accurate for most stuff (even though some won't agree).
You have some very nice Craftsmanship .
Do u have any intrested in converting a mill to Cnc or do u prefer manual machines.
CNC is totally amazing but for making a couple parts here and there I'm not sure its the best option. I made a CNC wood lathe and after a few years I finally got the software figured out. For wood, feeds speed and rpm are super forgiving plus its only 2 axis.
I agree , i do enjoy my manual machines , and after 12 years still havnt built a cnc mill.
Maybe one day !
Enjoy your videos and learning from them.
Still so much to learn!
Thanks you sir@@thieltech1
I like it!
thanks
Another great shop improvement. Please copy me on the drawings
I'll draw them and post a sort video when they are available. Thanks
I'm thinking about getting one of these tables, great improvement! Maybe I missed it, but what was the travel before and after your modifications?
That's a really good question and no you didn't miss it. The current travel is 12 x 7 inch and Vevor lists it at 8.3 x 4.3 inches.
Wow! BIG DIFFERENCE! Great job!
Would it be possible to directly swap the stock lead screws for some quality SFU1604 or SFU1204 ball screws?
Probably, although directly? I guess that depends in a lot of things.
@WinkysWorkshop I would replace the nut with an anti backlash nut, throw away the cast one. The ends on the SFU1604 look similar to the ends on the stock leadscrew. I'm also tempted to order SFU1602 instead for greater resolution, more similar to your mod.
@@Phar2krazee Well, as long as the table locks and you have a DRO the backlash isn't an issue unless you are going to use it for CNC. No backlash is nice however
@WinkysWorkshop I'm using the table on a drill press that I am converting into a mini mill, and will eventually add stepper motors to CNC the thing.
@@Phar2krazee I have not had much luck milling with a drill press. It will work for wood but not many drill presses have the the rigidity needed to mill metal.
Have you seen the video that Matthias Wandel did on this table?
Yeah... he threw it under the bus. Ha. I think the table itself is okay but he was right about the lead screws.
Try a touch of moly based lube (bite the bullet and buy the good studs) and the steel/stainless issue goes away.
I'm done with stainless, it has good uses but not for a lead screw.
If you google stainless steel threads, you'll find that you should lubricate them first to stop them from galling. There is a nickle gel lube that they reccomend. Being in the comment section I can only tell you to look. As I don't want to fall foul of google's policies.
They were lubricated but not with the nickel gel. I think I'll just go with steel next time. I actually bought that stainless all thread for my CNC wood lathe. It has a brass nut and works perfect. Thanks for the info.
Because stainless steel stretches when under pressure, once it bends it lockes up,why do i know this from experience.
There was no load on the screw but whatever the reason, no more stainless for me.
For large moves of the table you can use your cordless drill power feed 😂
True but to be honest I never make many large moves. I like the slow movement.
Probably you need to scrape the ways on the saddle and table. There is no parallelism and there is twist as well. I have two sets of the same model an scraped them using a granite surface plate. I changed the nuts and the screws with ACME, what come with it is crap.
Yeah, crap is a good definition for the lead screws. I'm not too worried about scraping or a warp. This is for positioning on a drill press. If I'm within .003" to .004" thats usually good enough. If I need better I'll use my mill.
@@WinkysWorkshop Oh didn't know you have a mill. I though you wanted to mill with the drill press
@@car9167 I have a Wells Index model 40. Smaller than some but totally adequate for me.
You can use stainless but you need bronze nuts.
The problem surprised me. I used stainless on my CNC wood lathe cross slide with a brass nut and it worked great. The only reason I went with stainless on the lathe was that I could not find a good quality steel all thread. Fortunately I found some now. I won't be using stainless again.
Its called Spalling - utube went and edited my initial comment !!
Got it
The original leadscrew on your y axis had a left hand thread. This meant that both axes worked in the conventional direction (that's good), which is that clockwise turns on the feed handle move the work away from you. You seem to have used right handed thread on this axis which now means that it moves backwards. This is a recipe for disaster. I have used cheap x-y tables that actually come like like this, and I can tell you that it's not only bloody irritating, but one has to think very carefully each time the y axis is moved. I think you'll seriously regret that you didn't use LH studding the first time you bugger up a job by turning the handle the wrong way. Also, I don't understand why you got rid of the thrust bearings, and while you were at it, why didn't you make a split feed nut so you could adjust for backlash?
BTW stainless galling is thought to be due to the nickel content. We used silver plating and graphite lube to prevent threads siezing in aqueous environments. There are anti-sieze agents available for fresh-air use if you must use ss.
I just reprogrammed my brain on the RH screw, HA. Yeah, I agree LH would have been better. As for the back lash goes, 1) I have DROs so it doesn't really matter much and 2) standard thread have very little backlash, as long as they are not under load they do very well. In fact I have 3/8"-16 in my CNC wood lathe and it has maybe .006" even after many hours of use. The backlash on this table is about the same. That is better than both my South Bend lathe and my wells index mill.
i have the same chinese table and the same problem too, and i had to modify the play on the axis too. chinese tools are worthless, you always have to modify everything. these tables aren't even finished, I had to drill holes to let the coolant out....plus I don't have a lathe or milling machine, so it's hard to do machining.
To a point I agree. It always amazes me how most parts of the tools are good and then they totally mess up another aspect. The castings and machining on the table itself is fairly good but the lead screws are 100% junk. However, like I said at the beginning of the video, it's not really well suited for a mill table but fine for a drill press and drilling holes if you fix the lead screw and or add a DRO. It's super hard to find a good X Y Table for a drill press and if you do, it will be at least $600. The modifications I made were cheap so I guess I'll save money and do the labor.
@@WinkysWorkshop I have a much better one that cost me 250 dollars équivalent in euros and with 3 handles as opposed to 2 on this one. and the Chinese sellers often put 3 handles in the photo whereas when you ask around, it only has 2.
I take the view that, because Chinese stuff is cheap and cheerful, accept that you are buying a kit that needs fitting and finishing. Then it kind of makes sense.
@@passionbricolage712 Send me a link to the $250 table.
as others have already stated stainless steel is a terrible material for galling. It is useless for transit type threads or bushing/bearings or anything of that nature. It would be ok if acetal copolymer plastic or delrin leadscrew nuts were being used but put it through mild steel nuts or even stainless nuts and it will surface gall/tear and seize.
Yeah... I'll just forgo the stainless from now on
If you wont too use stainless you Will need too use. Brass As a nut. stainless Will ruin all ohter Steel typs.
Yeah, on my CNC lathe I used brass and it worked fine. No more stainless for me.
Nice work. Good move doing the Y screw while you had the table off. I like the simple DRO's. Cheers Tony
Nice improvment.
Can you explain why you think it is not a milling table but a positioning table., do you think the border is not rigid enough, or what is the problem?
Have seen this video( th-cam.com/video/k1iGxPwpzOc/w-d-xo.html) it looks like it is milling okay?
I probably should have elaborated on this. The mill table is probably strong enough for light milling but a drill press is not. You could probably bolt this table down to a mill table and use it to mill but why? You might do light milling on aluminum on a drill press and wood word fairy well but steel is not a good idea.
@@WinkysWorkshop The why is... 90 USD for a X and Y axis is impossible to beat , so you only have to build a Z-axis. Diy Z-axis could maybe been done for 100 to 150 usd . The video i link to is a DIY Z-axis.
@@larspetersen2688 Sorry I overlooked the link before. That guy did a nice job on both his mill and the table. He put an enormous amount of work into both. In my opinion, very admirable but not with his effort. Weight and rigidity are super important on a mill and that's hard to achieve in a home shop. My 1200 lb wells index is considered to be a very good mill but using anything over a 1/2" end mill is pushing it. I don't want to sound critical of the effort made on this mill, in fact it is impressive... just not a logical approach.