@@rodneyjamesmcguireLatter-day Saints are not henotheists. Henotheism allows for the legitimate worship of other gods, whereas Latter-day Saints reserve true worship for "the only true God" (John 17:3). We believe in what I would call "kingship monotheism"-a monotheism that recognizes that no other divine beings (those who partake of the divine nature [2 Pet 1:3-4]) would exist without the Supreme Being-God the Father-ruling over them. They are subject to him and do only those things that God wills them to do.
What other issues would need to be overcome for Evangelicals and Latter-day Saints to merge??? Well... all EV's would have to admit what God the Father really is or... Hell would have to freeze over first. 😇
My favorite example of the coolest interfaith interaction (in my opinion) is the story of the first temple built in Las Vegas. A Baptist church in Las Vegas experienced a fire and burned almost completely down. A nearby LDS congregation spent years helping the Baptists clean up the rubble, fund raise and rebuild their church. When the first temple in Las Vegas was announced there were some zoning issues (I believe) and many people were NOT happy about a temple being built in their neighborhood. Well, the entire Baptist church showed up at the city meetings and basically told everyone “Yes, our Mormon brothers and sisters are getting their temple built!” That’s what true interfaith love and respect looks like, to me! If we are truly followers of Christ then we mourn with those whose church just burnt to the ground and help them rebuild it, and we advocate for other people’s righteous desire to build something that’s of worth to them and their faith. Love others and treat others the way you’d like to be treated. ❤ And yes, one day we will all come together. Christ has told us that we have to be unified to be HIS people, and we unite through love.
My parents helped with the tabernacle choir touring in Mexico and one of the locations they sang at was a Catholic church and the priest came out and basically said he was so happy to help build a relationship between the two faiths (I summed up what he actually said.) Really cool experience though that my parents got to be a part of.
Wow!. That was amazing. What a cool experience!!! The world would be a much more beautiful place if we could all treat each other that way. This is the the purpose of Christ's message and teachings.
I will amend that only with 'as attested by the Holy Ghost'. For though an angel or even Christ himself were to appear before us, without the witness of the Holy Ghost to accompany the experience, we will not see or retain its reality..
@@BGCflyer He who suffered and was crucified for all mankind, that by him, and through him all mankind will be resurrected, and that by adhering to the Gospel, we may be redeemed and receive glory, even as Christ recieved glory from Father.
Well, correct in a way. 39,999 will just cease to exist. They wont merge, they either join His Kingdom or wander off to the other side to lessor degrees of glory
Ironically, they seem to be merged in committing the evils, in other words, they commit to uniting in opposing the fruits of the spirit, and the top commands of Christ.
I no longer worry whether people call me a Christian. I call myself a “follower of Christ”. Can’t tell me I’m not. And I have to choose each day to be a follower of Christ, regardless of what faith I was baptized into. Keep being a light for Him - both of you!
Dear Jeff from Hello Saints. You started your channel 4 months before I met the missionaries. You helped guide me through my 'conversion . I was trusted for a year about being baptized because I was afraid of all the denominations actually not having the "full gospel" as the many churches I hop through, I can see that most of the congregations are not actually receiving the blessings that pastor promises. And its because most churches I have seen there is zero accountability and personal council. Everytime you read the book of Mormon it paced up with my reading. You were a study partner for me. And July 1st I will start my mission. I will be a missionary in reno nevada speaking Spanish. I get to go the Mexico mtc, I have been told there are way to many wild parrots that fly around
I come from a family of cousins of many different Christian faiths(those who worship and follow Jesus Christ). We love, respect and enjoy our relationships with each other. We pray with and for each other. I'm so grateful. Pastor Jeff, I sure appreciate you and your respect and perspective. About temples, we go there to learn, to worship Christ, to commitment to keeping God's commandments, to love and serve everyone. Also to connect families together forever.
Very well said, and I have the same situation in my family....I can't ever express my love for my Evangelical Christian in laws, they are the greatest example of what Christianty is to me. I love them as I love anyone on this earth and I know they are my brother and sister's in the gospel of Jesus Christ and I will see them in Heaven, they are Heavenly Fathers choice servents on this earth.
@susiesmith2052 Masonic ceremonies teach to love others? So why have the Lds constantly fight against the rights of women, LGBTQ+ community and ethnic minorities? Why did its leaders command and commit abuse of women and children? Families are already connected in heaven without the abusive behaviour of the Mormon church.
@@TheIceMan44 as a born-again Christian, that would be fine assuming we work towards helping those that need our physical support. However, we would have to agree that teaching those that need spiritual support, then we will begin to fall apart.
As a Latter-Day Saint, it hurts a little when those not of our faith say that we are not Christians. It's not because we want a "seat at the lunch table" with mainstream Christianity. It's because we actually love Jesus Christ more than anything else. Christ is at the center of ALL we do in the church. Jesus Christ is in the name of the church. The Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ. We pray in the name of Jesus Christ. I can go on and on. Everything we "do" in the church points to Jesus Christ and helps people develop a close and lasting relationship with Him.
Jesus Christ is God! Book of Mormon Title page: And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting Himself unto all nations. Mosiah 5:44 (7:27 LDS) And because he said unto them, that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; Mosiah 8:13 (13:34 LDS) Have they not said that God himself should come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth? 3 Nephi 5:14 RLDS (11:14 LDS) And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them, saying, Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands, and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world. 3 Nephi 9:19 RLDS (19:18 LDS) And behold they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.
Joseph Smith said . . . (Regarding Joseph Smith’s alleged first vision where celestial personages appeared to him) . . . “My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right - and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . .” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 5-6). “What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, p. 270). (In questions directed to Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism . . . ). First-“Do you believe the Bible?” If we do, we are the only people under heaven that do, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do.” Third-“Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?” Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness.” (Teachings, page 119). Brigham Young said. . . “But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong,” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, 1855, p. 171). John Taylor said . . . “We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsens . . . Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, 1858, p. 167).
@@rodbrannon1647 There is only one God. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost is one God. LDS leaders teach contrary to the Book of Mormon and the Bible. Alma 8 79-82, 104 RLDS (11:26-29 LDS) And Zeezrom saith unto him: "Thou sayest there is a true and a living God?" And Amulek saith: "Yea, there is a true and a living God." Now Zeezrom saith: "Is there more than one God?" And he answered: "No." And shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son and God the Father and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, To be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. 2 Nephi 13:32 (31:21 LDS) And now behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, And the only and true doctrine of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God without end. Amen. Mormon 3:29 And He hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, Whereby he that is found guiltless before Him at the judgment day hath it given unto them to dwell in the presence of God in His kingdom, To sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above unto the Father and unto the Son and unto the Holy Ghost, which is one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end. D&C LDS 20:28, RLDS 17:5h Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. Book of Mormon - Testimony of the Three Witnesses And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen. Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Martin Harris. Luke 10:23 Inspired Version (Joseph Smith Translation) All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it. Mosiah 8:28-32 RLDS (15:1-5 LDS) And now Abinadi saith unto them: "I would that ye should understand that God Himself shall come down among the children of men and shall redeem His people; And because He dwelleth in flesh, He shall be called the Son of God; And having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son - The Father, because He was conceived by the power of God, and the Son, because of the flesh, thus becoming the Father and Son, And They are one God, yea, the Very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth - And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation and yieldeth not to the temptation, But suffereth Himself to be mocked and scourged and cast out and disowned by His people.
@@joesimpson9230 So you misunderstand? Maybe 🤔. They are separate beings. One in purpose. Long B4 I joined the LDS Church, they appeared to me. I don't need other accounts when I have seen for, myself. If I had such an encounter, as a little child, I'm sure many others have. I am a nothing individual, unimportant in my mind. You can find out for yourself, and should, if you care to know. Knowledge I have gained comes through to me personally. Reading scriptures is a good way to open the windows of Heaven. At times I've read, but received different information than was written on the page. I was given knowledge of what Heaven wanted me to receive, not necessarily what I was looking for. It isn't about who is right or wrong. Truth, doesn't change because we experience or understand differently.
I've always found it interesting that everyone wants to defend themselves as Christian, when in reality, when everything is said and done, there is one individual who will make that judgement. We are all out here judging each other on who is 'Christian' when in reality we need to be asking ourselves that question, "Would Christ consider me Christian?"
I'm talking about the one who exemplifies sacrifice for humanity, the one who loves more than himself, the one who seeks to do good. That Christ is found in the literature of all the faiths of those speaking in this video, and those aspects are what matters most. And if one is looking beyond that, we truly are looking beyond the mark as what matters most. Everything else is secondary to his goodness and grace. @@dnzswithwombats
@@jaredhutchinson4629 Are you LDS, if you don't mind me asking? Either way., what you do there in what you wrote is put platitudes above Jesus and above God as some standard God conforms to. God is the standard.
@@dnzswithwombatsI think we are making this more complicated. At least more complicated than what I find in the scriptures and I assume what Christ wanted it to be for us. All I know is when it comes to being Christian, Christ said: "Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
I really appreciate the way you model how to talk with people you don't necessarily agree with. I tend to think that the societal policies the last few decades of "dont talk about religion or politics!" has let to a society that no longer has the skills to respectfully do either. It is always so refreshing to see positive behavior modeled! Thank you!
Amen! It would be even better if @hellosaints were willing to accept that we’re NOT a cult and actually admit that we’re Christian too though it would probably kill him to do so. 😉 We love you Jeff! Eventually you’ll learn…
When evangelicals tell me that I am not a Christian, they are telling me I don’t love and follow and believe in Jesus Christ. Can they see how insulting that is? Can they imagine how they would feel if I were to tell them that they aren’t Christians?
@@ackhakJoseph Smith said that all the creeds of Christianity were an abomination. Christians are deceived by Satan, anti Christ, have the spirit of the devil in them and are all wrong.
The issue is that the Jesus that you follow and the Jesus that Christians follow are fundamentally different things. The law of non contradiction tells us that something cannot be and not be at the same time. So, the Jesus that Christian’s follow cannot be the Jesus that you follow. The two fundamentally different Jesuses cannot both be the actual Jesus. You can be right or I can be right, but we cannot both be right about Jesus. I would say that a Christian wouldn’t care if you told them they weren’t a Christian because you are a non Christian telling them that.
@@michaelsterling2650 Although LDS may teach a different Jesus, the Jesus Christ of the Book of Mormon is the same as the Jesus Christ of the Bible. Book of Mormon Title page: And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting Himself unto all nations. Mosiah 5:44 (7:27 LDS) And because he said unto them, that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; Mosiah 8:13 (13:34 LDS) Have they not said that God himself should come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth? 3 Nephi 4:42-44 RLDS (9 LDS) Yea, verily I say unto you, If ye will come unto me, ye shall have eternal life. Behold, mine arm of mercy is extended towards you, and whosoever will come, him will I receive; and blessed are those who come unto me. Behold I am Jesus Christ, the son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. 2 Nephi 11 RLDS (2 Nephi 25 LDS) "Yea, behold, I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven, save it be this Jesus Christ of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved."
Great conversation and an admirable friendship. As a Latter-day Saint living in the Midwest, I am so thankful for my friends of other faiths. For me: It hard to hear that someone thinks I am not a Christian because I love and follow Christ. He is my Savior. I am redeemed through Him. I haven’t given up on the word Christianity in my life. But I also learning to not be bothered at all when someone disagrees with how I see myself and my religion. People disagree. Some are right and some are wrong. It’s between me and God to find His ways. I also don’t like to hear that others consider us a cult because that is a negative term. There is nothing negative about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am learning that it is His bride. I love it and accept it and all of us as we make our way through life doing our best. I adore our Church and it really stinks to have someone talk down or negatively towards something I love and admire. The Church is lead by a living prophet and full of the best people on earth that I have ever met. It just feels rude to speak down towards our Church. It is good to hear that a class on Mormonism in an Evangelical Church isn’t a bash because growing up I always heard that it was. For six months in math class every single day the boy that sat in front of me came and told me all sorts of ridiculous lies about myself and my family and my church, that his father was teaching from the pulpit on a weekly basis in a Mormonism class. He pulled my hair looking for my horns, he said vile things about my parents, and had a spirit of the devil about him as he spoke. For this reason I only speak in kindness about other churches. It’s hard as a child to attend your extended family’s children’s Sunday School class and hear your religion bashed. It is awful. I never let other churches be spoken down about at church in my presence.
12:15 - 13:01 "One of the misperceptions I've been able to jettison as a result of our friendship is this line that I'd been fed that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints don't know their scriptures, they don't read the Bible, they don't think about what they believe, they are told not to think about what they believe. Most of the Latter-Day Saints, though, that I've engaged (which is a lot of Latter-Day Saints) are very well informed about their scriptures, about the Bible, about why they believe different things. You guys have very strong convictions and rallying points of truth, and though it is different, I've grown to respect how informed Latter-Day Saints are about their own faith." -- Pastor Jeff Yes! This! Thank you!
Weather or not we ever come to a complete agreement on how the scriptures should be interpreted, we still need each other in the fight against our true enemies who want to see the world controlled by unrighteous influences.
1 Nephi 3:219-225 RLDS (1 Nephi 14: 9-10 LDS) And it came to pass that he saith unto me: "Look and behold that great and abominable church which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil." And he saith unto me: "Behold, there are save it be two churches - The one is the church of the Lamb of God, And the other is the church of the devil; Wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations, And she is the whore of all the earth." And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth; And she sat upon many waters; And she had dominion over all the earth among all nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
The abominable church consists of all organizations, both known and secret, across the globe, that serve Satan's aims. We can clearly see it has infiltrated highest levels of government, industry, and education in many lands. To be clear, it does not consist of one "church" or denomination as we know them today.
@@joesimpson9230 , That Scripture means that the earth is being ran by wicked forces and the only way to escape their influences is by coming to Jesus.
@@explorerofmind True. And to come to Christ's true church...which is NOT just some 501c3 sect or denomination (i.e. LDS). D&C 10:67-68 LDS (D&C 3 RLDS) Behold, this is my doctrine: Whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church; whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me but is against me; therefore, he is not of my church.
@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr Right? Imagine a doctrine that says certain people are condemned to hell prior to birth, and then everyone that doesn’t make a nonsensical confession is condemned to hell. Your god doesn’t seem like a nice guy or have a very nice doctrine.
I’m a 66 year old lifelong multi-generation LDS member. Concerning this faith vs. works non-controversy, I have never at any time been taught or misunderstood that there is *anything* I can do to earn admission to heaven, or that any “works” are sufficient to be worthy, in the sense of “earning” Christ’s grace, or forgiveness of sin. In fact, such thinking seems to me to be an abomination, suggesting someone should approach Christ in some form of negotiation. This is offensive and sinful thinking. Neal A. Maxwell expressed it best, “Any assessment of where we stand in relation to Christ tells us we do not stand at all. We kneel.” With the exception of my college years at BYU, I have lived my entire life in Texas, outside the context of my faith being the prevalent religious culture. In other words, almost all my friends and co-workers are non-LDS, almost any denomination you can name. The faith vs. works discussion always devolves into a chicken-and-egg conjecture about which comes first. The faith side of the discussion always centers on a personal transformation of being “saved” and transformed from a worldly, sin-seeking person into someone who manifests better conduct because of their newfound relationship with Christ. LDS teaching, which is sometimes derided as “works” emphasizes approaching Christ as a self-aware sinner, broken in heart and contrite in spirit, pleading for forgiveness and redemption. We all fall short, and make no mistake, nothing in LDS doctrine contradicts. When Latter-day Saints quote the Book of Mormon, “It is by faith ye are saved after all ye can do,” this is by no means - in no form - an expression that supposes “works” are sufficient in any way. It simply means that true followers of Christ have fully, without reservation, committed themselves to following the Master, including keeping his commandments, imperfect though we all are. LDS people are taught by our leaders to strive to continually learn and repent, meaning to change for the better by forsaking bad behaviors and bad thoughts. In this way, through learning and growth, we hold to the path of become perfected in Christ. To a Latter-day Saint, knowing we all fall short, we acknowledge that the Grace of Christ is foundation of our faith, the Rock. There is no other path, no other way. No one who has ever lived or who will ever live compares to Christ. He is alpha and omega. No Latter-day Saint has ever been taught anything contrary to this.
The Bible and the Book of Mormon agree regarding faith and works. A lot of the sequel stuff that would be hard for Evangelicals to accept are from teachings that were adopted by the LDS sect after Joseph Smith were murdered. Things that are both contrary to the doctrines of the Bible and the doctrines of the Book of Mormon. Things such as: 1.God once being a man (other than as manifested in flesh as Jesus Christ) 2. Men becoming Gods 3. A Heavenly Mother 4. God as three beings 5. Penal Oath temple rituals (Joseph Smith and BoM warn against them) 6. Temple recommends/requirements for the kingdom 7. Polygamy (Joseph Smith was not a polygamist, Brigham Young was) 8. Emphasis on expensive temples while there are poor among us. 9. Emphasis on following a false prophet / man, should only follow Jesus Christ 10. Definition of God's true church. (D&C 10:67-68) 11: “Covenant Path” rather than Doctrine of Christ 3 Nephi 5:32 RLDS (3 Nephi 11 LDS) 12. secret societies (Skull & Bones, Freemasonry)
Also the Angel Gabriel being Noah. Not once in the Bible did an Angel become a human for that amount of time. Just messengers for a short period. Humans and angels are separate created beings
@@joesimpson9230 you wrote, "Bible and the Book of Mormon agree regarding faith and works" NO. Not at all. Read Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 10:9, John 3:16, Galatians 2:16, Romans 5:1, Romans 4:4-5 and Titus 3:4-5 to see just how wrong that statement really is. Incidentally, Joseph Smith WAS a polygamist. History reveals that so well.
@@georgebauerschmidt5289 Read these scriptures and see how the Book of Mormon does agree with the Bible on grace: 2 Nephi 11 RLDS (2 Nephi 25 LDS) "Yea, behold, I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven, save it be this Jesus Christ of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved." 2 Nephi 7:42 RLDS And remember after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved. Mosiah 1:108 (3:12 LDS) But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God; for salvation cometh to none such, except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ. Mosiah 1:116-118 (3:17-18) And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given, nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent. For behold, he judgeth, and his judgment is just, and the infant perisheth not, that dieth in his infancy; But men drink damnation to their own souls, except they humble themselves, and become as little children, and believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent: 2 Nephi 1:69 RLDS And by the law, no flesh is justified, or, by the law, men are cut off. 2 Nephi 13:28 RLDS Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far, save it were by the word of Christ, with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save; Mni 6:5 And their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith. 1 Nephi 3:193 And shall make known to all kindreds, tongues and people, that the Lamb of God is the son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him or they can not be saved; 1N 5:135 And the labor which they had to perform was to look! and because of the simpleness of the way, or the easiness of it, there were many who perished. Mosiah 1:122 RLDS And behold, when that time cometh, none shall be found blameless before God, except it be little children, only through repentance and faith on the name of the Lord God Omnipotent;
@@georgebauerschmidt5289 True history, including court decision, confirms that Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy. It is only the corrupted, edited and false version of history from Brigham Young and his LDS sect that pretends otherwise. “One of the last things which Brigham Young had done before leaving Iowa, was to appear in the pulpit dressed to personate the worshiped and lamented prophet Smith, and confer the prophetic succession, with all its dignities, emoluments, and authorities, upon "President Brigham Young"! The people accepted the pious fraud with the maddest enthusiasm, and Brigham's power was sealed and secured for all time. Within five years after- ward he openly added polygamy to the tenets of the church by authority of a "revelation" which he pretended had been received nine years before by Joseph Smith, albeit Joseph is amply on record as denouncing polygamy to the day of his death.” Mark Twain (Roughing it, pgs. 307)
Jesus Christ died for our Sins according to the scriptures and that he was Buried and that he Rose Again the third day praise God praying for everyone everyday God bless you all......
14:54 - the problem isn't acknowledging that we are different; the problem is that Evangelicals claiming they are Christian and Latter-day Saints are not. Evangelicals and Latter-day Saints are both Christian--Evangelicals do not get to own and gate-keep that identity. Their creeds to not create the boundaries of Christendom. Latter-day Saints are not Evangelicals, but Latter-day Saints are certainly Christians. Any attempt to avoid this acknowledgement or gate-keep Christianity is offensive and childish.
I always liked the duck analogy. Its like all "other Christian denominations" wont recognize us as a duck because we have different color feathers, even though we are a duck! However clearly, this is one of the instances where the Lord says, "blinded by the craftiness of men" and the adversary. And yet, they try to pin that on us!!
@@calblue95482 The table analogy they used bothered me. We don't want to sit at their table because it isn't their table. It is Jesus' table. It bothers me when they try to act like the gate-keepers when they don't have that authority.
If you had a friend that you knew really well and someone came up to you and said He’s my friend too and then you get to talking about this friend that you have in common and it doesn’t sound like the same person at all would it be fair to assume that you’re are not talking about the same person? Would I get mad at that person for saying I don’t think your friends with the guy I’m talking about.
@@annvanwest9822 that’s not what is happening here. We are talking about the same guy; we just know more stuff about him. You’re like, He never visited the Americas, and we are saying, yes He did; ask Him about it! It is offensive for you to claim to know the real Jesus and then say we know a false Jesus. It comes from recycled anti-Mormon tropes among evangelicals and is a way to scare evangelicals from taking the restored truth seriously. Any free thinking well informed evang will see past that framework given to you by your pastor. Plus it is just childish to hold someone’s Christianity hostage.
I have thought a lot about the end goal in society between the two groups. We may see it differently, but we want the same things. Good fathers, good mothers, raising good children in the glorious light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The outcomes have some profound similarities.
I have to say, I'm left feeling a bit angry after this episode. Kurt is so friendly and gracious and willing to grant that Evangelicals are Christian and a good alternative for ex-Mormons. Pastor Jeff, as friendly as he comes across, is still unwilling to grant that LDS are Christian, that involvement in Latter-day Saint Christianity is a good alternative to atheism, or that Latter-day Saints are not a cult. I don't expect that Evengelicals concede on "deal breakers", but to have any true mutual respect, Jeff would need to let down his pride and grant Latter-day Saints their Christianity. Maintaining this gate-keeping posture is a deal breaker for me--I can't engage with people like that. @HelloSaints - talk me down.
As a non denomination Christian, I have not considered LDS to be Christian due to the difference of how he's viewed. Christians do not believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers as procreated sons of Elohim. Rather, traditional Christians interpret the Bible to proclaim Jesus as King of kings and Lord of lords manifested as the Son form of a triune God. Jesus is not just viewed as savior in traditional Christianity, He is Lord. That's why Pastor Jeff won't refer to the LDS as Christian versus other denominations. It's a major theological difference
@@vanishingsoon Your view of Mormonism seems to be closer to the anti-Mormon cartoon from the 80s called the Godmakers than to actual Mormonism. Title page of the Book of Mormon: “And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations.” Alma 11:34: “…and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God.” 3 Nephi 11:27: “verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.” Doctrine & Covenants 38:1-3: “1 Thus saith the Lord your God, even Jesus Christ, the Great I Am, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the same which looked upon the wide expanse of eternity, and all the seraphic hosts of heaven, before the world was made; 2 The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes; 3 I am the same which spake, and the world was made, and all things came by me.” Mosiah 3: “5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases. 6 And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men. 7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people. 8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary. 9 And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him. 10 And he shall rise the third day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men. 11 For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.” Alma 42:15 “15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.” Mosiah 15:1-4 “1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. 2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son- 3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son- 4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.”
Never heard of it. My viewpoint of LDS just comes from conversations with LDS friends after living in Utah for nearly 20 years. I can only go off of what I'm told by it's members
@@TheMightyJor truth be told, I had never heard of the term Godmakers. I have seen some cartoons that were labelled under a Mormon name. Nevertheless, I've had discussions about these topics with local Utah LDS and they would not deny these points. Therefore, as I said, I can only go off what your congregation members tell me. I even asked these questions as I toured the Church History museum in Salt Lake and had the same results. There's no condemnation here. Some of my greatest friends are LDS and we have these discussions all the time
(35:20) Jeff, can you clarify when you say "not many but some evangelicals" would say that the LDS church is a "false religion" please? Because I know of no evangelical Christian pastor, or individual Christian I have come across within my own family, the different churches I have ever attended my entire life (48 years young), the Christian school I went to, who does not believe Mormonism is a false religion. When you said that only "some" evangelical Christians believe Mormonism is a false religion, I think you are very wrong in your assessment.
Much better format than previous videos. I appreciated this far better, it seemed more like you were talking on even ground rather than proselyting to the person you are talking with/at/ and vice versa (let this be a neutral territory of mutual expression). If you stick to this format, you will assuage fears of your intent far better. I want to coexist with Evangelicals, I genuinely having nothing against them, I basically was one for a time. I want us to work together to better help the rest of mankind. The amount of humanitarian effort we could provide from an interfaith perspective would be amazing. Just remember, you are always welcome at our lunch table ;) Perhaps we can agree on the concept of being a 'Restorationist' denomination of Christianity. Nomenclature of that nature might be more easily accepted on both fronts. It still allows Reformationists and Protestants to 'other' us all they want, while still being acknowledged as at least the weirdo cousins to Christianity. . .
@@kevins4254And what of Christ's command to His apostles saying ,"Go ye forth unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, teaching them and baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."?
Joseph Smith hated the Christian and Catholic Church. I'm not sure why the LDS church is so eager to want to be called Christian. It has me scratching my head.
😂😂😂😂 nobody cares to be called Christian because the saints are more Christian than those claiming to be Christians. We are saints as in the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints and if you read the Bible they only talk about saints not Christians.
@@utimakasini7176 What do you have against taking on the name of Christ and being called a Christian? They didn't in the Book of Mormon. Alma 46:15-16 Yea, all those who were the true believers in Christ, took upon them, gladly, the name of Christ, or Christians, as they were called, because of their belief in Christ, who should come; and therefore, at this time, Moroni prayed that the cause of the Christians, and the freedom of the land might be favored.
@@utimakasini7176 Joseph Smith said . . . (Regarding Joseph Smith’s alleged first vision where celestial personages appeared to him) . . . “My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right - and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . .” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 5-6). “What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, p. 270). (In questions directed to Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism . . . ). First-“Do you believe the Bible?” If we do, we are the only people under heaven that do, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do.” Third-“Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?” Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness.” (Teachings, page 119).
Dear Jeff, I love how you think and how you articulate your thought processes. You and Joy would make such awesome members of our community!!! You would bring a very needed balance and moderation to our efforts. I love the sweet spirit of love and acceptance that I feel from most evangelicals. As a Latter Day Saint I try to emit that kind of love to others regardless of their faith tradition because Jesus Christ loves all of us and He wants us to love one another. I am amazed at how open you are about our doctrine even though you can't subscribe to it. But what puzzles me is your faith tradition's inability to accept continuing revelation, modern prophets and additional scriptures. I joined the church when I was 16. I was raised Methodist but my parents weren't church goers so we didn't have conversations about God, ever, til I wanted to become a member of the LDS faith. Then all hell broke loose in our family. Anyway...apart from the Spirit I felt, what I found so logical and natural about the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the LDS tradition is the doctrine of ongoing revelation. It makes so much sense to me that God would and does continue to speak to His children today just like He did in the past and that provides for the possibility and necessity of modern revelation, modern prophets, and additional scriptures today and in the future. God is not mute. He loves His children today as much as He loved them when He called Moses to lead the children of Israel. He is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. He is unchanging. So He will continue to communicate with us today. It just makes so much sense to me and I just don't understand why you guys can't see that. Apart from that, I can see our two faith communities merging. I could happily link arms with my evangelical friends in the love and spirit of the Lord. For we love the same God and our God is my best friend and He loves you, so I love you! Be blessed, Jeff.
The Bible is the reason. Evangelicals must pin everything on it because it provides a comfortable static base. It is a standard which allows them to claim authority rather than the priesthood as given in the early church.
if everyone just focused on ONE thing only, and that is the knowledge of Jesus death, burial and resurrection and put our faith and trust in Him as our God and Savior, then we can set aside any other differences and ideas. That core should be the one thing that keeps us all together.
I get frustrated and upset (though less so the older I get) when people tell me I’m not Christian. I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior. I love Him. I’m trying to follow Him. I repent in His name when I fall short. I don’t think it’s complicated. People who believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior are Christian. Period. The other differences in scriptural interpretation are significant to distinguish between denominations but NOT who’s Christian and who’s not. I absolutely consider Evangelicals, Methodists, Catholics, Baptists, Amish, Seventh Day Adventists, and Jehovah’s Witnesses and ALL the others who believe in Christ as their Savior Christian. Even though all of those denominations have pretty significant differences of opinion on interpretation of scripture. I also have a problem with it, because people who don’t know much about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or worse, who only know us by the “Mormon” nickname) hear, “They’re not Christian.” And then they might not realize that we do believe in Christ. There are a LOT of people who believe we worship Mormon or Joseph Smith and have no idea we believe in Jesus Christ and worship Him. Because others outside our faith get so hung up on our belief in living prophets, people hear more about Joseph Smith and Mormon in connection to the church than Jesus. But that’s only something people outside our faith could be confused about. Every member of the church understands that Jesus is our Savior and The One we’re following. He is the head of this church. The prophets are just His servants on earth to keep the doctrine pure, warn us of dangers unique to our time, and lead God’s work on the earth. Saying we worship Joseph Smith or Mormon or getting hung up on our belief in them as prophets is like saying any Christian worships Peter, James, John, Moses, Noah, or Isaiah. Joseph Smith and Mormon were prophets, just like those men. We do not worship them, but we do regard their teachings as coming from God and having authority from God, just as we do the words of Peter, James, John, Isaiah, Moses and Noah. If you believe in ancient prophets, it really shouldn’t be that much of a stretch to understand our regard for Joseph Smith or any other modern prophet or any of the ancient prophets of the Book of Mormon. One can think they’re NOT true prophets of God, but it should be easy to understand how we regard them and not confuse it for worship. We worship Christ. We are Christian.
Thank you for writing this Becci. I’ve spent the past defending Mormons because I did not actually look into what the LDS church teaches. I have read the book of Mormon, the doctrines and covenants, pearl of great price, I’ve also studied Joseph Smith, translation and rewriting of the Bible, the seer. If you change, who Jesus really was then, it doesn’t matter if you worship him or not. Fundamentally as Christians we are believe in core doctrine, there is only one. God, who manifested in the flesh, died for the sins of the world. You do have to understand that I am not trying to be mean, I love you, and I don’t know you. Orthodox Christianity is not works based. It’s not polytheism. read your own Bible and do your own homework. Walk away from organized religion. I stopped following denominations once I really understood Christianity. True Christianity is not a religion. It’s the way. If you understand the separation of sheep and goat’s judgment of the Bible, you will understand why you can call yourself a Christian and then Christ will say I knew you’re not. Please! Come home.
@@dfoster4234 The Book of Mormon is true, and another witness of the same gospel of Jesus Christ as the Bible. Joseph Smith was a true prophet who worshipped Jesus Christ. The church was infiltrated by wicked men. When Joseph Smith was murdered, Brigham Young usurped control of the church and led some of the saints to SLC, Utah (many refused to follow him). Brigham Young introduced many false doctrines into that denomination including polygamy, men becoming Gods, Adam God, blood atonement of men, penal oath temple rituals, a Heavenly Mother, Lucifer being Jesus' brother, incorrect definition of Christ’s church, etc. None of that is in the Book of Mormon or teachings of Joseph Smith, but Brigham Young and the wicked leaders under and after him have pretended that it came from Joseph Smith in order to gain acceptance for their own evil and lustful desires. The LDS church of today is Brigham Young's denomination and is apostate from the teachings of the church under Joseph Smith. Mosiah 5:44 (7:27 LDS) And because he said unto them, that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; Mosiah 8:13 (13:34 LDS) Have they not said that God himself should come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth? Alma 8 79-82, 104 RLDS (11:26-29 LDS) And Zeezrom saith unto him: "Thou sayest there is a true and a living God?" And Amulek saith: "Yea, there is a true and a living God." Now Zeezrom saith: "Is there more than one God?" And he answered: "No." And shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son and God the Father and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, To be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. 2 Nephi 11 RLDS (2 Nephi 25 LDS) "Yea, behold, I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven, save it be this Jesus Christ of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved."
@@dfoster4234 I have read the Bible many, many times, and I will continue to read it. I love the Bible. I don’t see anything in it that contradicts the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Further, I have tried to understand the Trinity. Even before responding, I Googled again so as not to misrepresent it, but it is SO confusing and seems more a stretch to say Jesus was referring to Himself as The Father (multiple times) than to just accept that there is God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ (a separate being) and the Holy Spirit (a third being). The Bible makes SO much more sense to me through a Godhead lens than a Trinitarian one. It’s interesting to me that you (and so many other Christians) reduce identity as “Christian” to belief in this specific definition of Christ’s relationship to The Father. If in the Second Coming, Christ tells me He really is The Father as well as The Son and there is no other being who’s The Father, that all this time I’ve been praying to Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus, it was really just Jesus listening and there is no second Heavenly Father being, you think He’ll reject me because of that? Even though all this time I’ve been praying in the name of Jesus Christ, reading the Bible (yes, and other scriptures) and trying to follow the example He set during His mortal life as recorded in the New Testament? Personally, I feel much more strongly (even though we believe certain ordinances performed with legitimate authority are important) that all who believe in Christ and are trying to follow Him will be counted His in the Second Coming. I personally feel that scripture refers to those who say they’re Christian but don’t follow the gospel path or keep the commandments, or in other words, people who profess belief but actually are hypocrites. I don’t feel that applies to any particular denomination. But it could include people who attend any church, including the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The works hang-up is also one I don’t understand. Even after listening to Pastor Jeff for at least four months now, I still don’t really get this obsession with nitpicking works vs Grace. Christ told people to follow Him. He taught the commandments and a higher law, a code of conduct that would mark His followers as His. “If you love me, keep my commandments.” “Go and sin no more.” That’s literally all we’re trying to do. But of course, no person will be able to follow Christ perfectly. Even after our conversion and baptism, we’ll continue to fall short of His perfection. So we repent and try again to “sin no more”. And repent again. And again. And again… But every time, we don’t just sit down there in our sin and say, “Oh well. We’re imperfect creatures. It’s not possible for us to follow Christ. And it doesn’t matter what we do anyway, because Christ atoned for our sins.” I don’t believe that’s what you’re saying or what Pastor Jeff means either. So I’m still so confused about this “nuance” he tries to explain about what it is that we’re supposedly getting wrong about Grace. Or you including that in your comment. Anyway, I appreciate your concern for my eternal welfare and your love for Christ. I absolutely consider myself Christian, and I’m comfortable with leaving my judgement up to Him.
@@joesimpson9230 Joseph Smith absolutely taught that the Father and the Son were two separate beings. That was one of his key takeaways from the First Vision. Trying to present these scriptures as evidence that he believed otherwise is either confusion or disingenuous.
@@BecciBuck Try looking at his 1832 First Vision account...the only one actually written by Joseph Smith. In it you will read that he saw Jesus Christ. That account was torn from its journal and hid in the safe of Joseph Fielding Smith for decades while they taught plurality of Gods...and only returned after word of it got out.
I’m happily an evangelical convert to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I bristle when I hear the Church referred to as a cult. I’ve lost evangelical friends because of their view of the Church. I’m glad that evangelicals are (some at least) becoming more open to dialogue and look for the heart of the matter in Saints-Jesus is the heart!
I believe some view the requirement to pay money and interview in order to qualify for going to fine sanctuaries to perform secret rituals in special garments to obtain promises of exaltation as cultish. Also direction to follow a man called the living prophet can be viewed as cultish. I understand from others that leaving can be quite a process, and certainly viewed as apostasy...breaking up eternal families, losing exaltation, etc.
Those two different religions will not merge in the way you think, we have a lot of different beliefs that evangelicals will never agree with so we will never merge in that way
Pastor Jeff…love your thoughts surrounding the conversation and friendships. We’re disciples of Christ he is our Lord and master…let’s start there and work toward validating the good in each other and the love we each have for our Savior. Keep on keeping on my man. Kurt, love you too…long time participant to Leading Saints.
Why should God have to continue to add? We have 2k years worth of scripture, of his Word to follow. Everything is laid out for us. God can't possibly make it any more clear. God does not change. We are also not within his time frame. 1 years for us could be 1 Day for him. Jesus Christ finished it. Jesus is enough. He is all sufficient. He is the last high priest. We have all We need through Christ alone
A bible we have. That is all we need. Well, God is a living God. He teaches us line upon line. Precept upon precept. If we tried to teach the Bible to the Israelites out of Egypt, they would not be ready for that. The same goes today. Satan wants you to believe that a Bible is all you need.
@@montiraruba2831 the Bible is all you need. Where else can we get truth from besides the Bible? As Allison Nicole stated, the Bible is all we need, it contains everything we need to develop our faith with Jesus. We can read just Romans 10:9 and have everything we need in one verse. The rest is just there to help us cope with life. If you have some other way to get Jesus 2.0 from someone else, then that is what Jesus warned us about in Matthew 24:26
@@georgebauerschmidt5289 no need to throw scriptures at me. All I am saying is that we need a second witness testifying the teachings of Jesus Christ. Having only one witness, The Bible, you can see how people interprets scriptures differently resulting many different churches. A second witness will shed light unto the scriptures. The Book of Mormon stands as a second witness that testifies that Jesus is the Christ.
@@montiraruba2831 no need to throw scripture at you? Do you fear it? Does it bother you? If you read it instead of ignoring it, you'll see why you only need the Bible and not some fictional book masquerading as another scripture book. The b/M has no value to any Christian.
"To keep the conversation going, and allow the Lord to be in that space as we desire to see Him more clearly and walk in the path of truth." There’s your mission statement, Jeff. You ought to consider quoting yourself with that in every video you make. What a love and hope filled mission. God bless you and the rest of us in that pursuit.
I loved this! I grew up in the Midwest, and had many many evangelicals as friends. Often they would invite me to their activities, and I would invite them to mine. Many years ago, I am 57 years old now, I remember being invited to watch some movies that were made about our faith, and they were grotesque and horrible. And they broke my heart. I knew that what I was watching was not true about my LDS faith. I remember my mom teaching me not to worry, but to love my friends, no matter what. I am ever grateful to you, Pastor Jeff, for opening the dialogue, and allowing our two faiths to learn from each other and do what Christ is asking us to do.
The Book of Mormon is true, and another witness of the same gospel of Jesus Christ as the Bible. Joseph Smith was a true prophet who worshipped Jesus Christ. The church was infiltrated by wicked men. When Joseph Smith was murdered, Brigham Young usurped control of the church and led some of the saints to SLC, Utah (many refused to follow him). Brigham Young introduced many false doctrines into that denomination including polygamy, men becoming Gods, Adam God, blood atonement of men, penal oath temple rituals, a Heavenly Mother, Lucifer being Jesus' brother, incorrect definition of Christ’s church, etc. None of that is in the Book of Mormon or teachings of Joseph Smith, but Brigham Young and the wicked leaders under and after him have pretended that it came from Joseph Smith in order to gain acceptance for their own evil and lustful desires. The LDS church of today is Brigham Young's denomination and is apostate from the teachings of the church under Joseph Smith.
@joesimpson9230, we don't agree with your assessment of Brigham Young, obviously, but we are soooooo grateful to the Community of Christ Church for preserving the JST and the sacred restoration sites and for their loving and loyal defense of the prophet Joseph Smith and the book of Mormon. ❤
@juliegreenman, your mother sounds like a wonderful woman. A true saint. Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God. ❤ Bryce Dunford has a wonderful series of lessons and in one of them he talks about the differences between how a telestial type person would act versus a terrestrial type person, and how a terrestrial person would act versus a celestial type person. Basically, a telestial person just hurts others. A terrestrial person will only hurt another if they are hurt. In defense. A celestial person hurts no one. They love when love isn't deserved. They do good to all. Even their enemies.
@@gwengold8154 Emma Smith preserved the JST...and testified as Joseph did that Joseph never practiced polygamy. LDS make Emma and Joseph out to be liars, and instead believe polygamist Brigham Young and his gang. "At one time my husband came to me and asked me if I had heard certain rumors about spiritual marriages, or anything of the kind; and assured me that if I had, that they were without foundation; that there was no such doctrine, and never should be with his knowledge, or consent. I know that he had no other wife or wives than myself, in any sense, either spiritual or otherwise." Emma Smith, 1879 “What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery and having seven wives when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago, and I can prove them all perjurers.” - Jospeh Smith Jr. May 26, 1844 "Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned; and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given, and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned." (Brigham Young - July 14, 1855 - Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266).
@@joesimpson9230We do not think that Joseph Smith was a liar. We are very grateful to Emma for preserving the JST and for all she did in the persecution days of the church. I leave all the sorting out of who supposedly said what to God.
A denomination of Christianity is simply a group of Christians who have been denominated (i.e., named) with a particular name to distinguish them from other Christians with different beliefs. The denomination Latter-day Saints belong to is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
I would argue that Christians and mormons have a fundamental difference in their respective belief systems, and that is the nature of Jesus. The chasm between the two beliefs about the nature of Jesus is insurmountable and enough to show that there are actually two separate religions. This isn’t a comment to denigrate or elevate either side, only to show that the two religions, by definition, worship different gods.
What a peculiar question-at least, from an LDS perspective. Why on earth would we *want* to merge? Certainly we think our perspective of divinity and theology is the right one; and we’d like for individuals of good faith from all backgrounds to join us. But institutionally-the ‘gellies just don’t have anything we want.
Maybe not what you want, but what is needed. Correcting false doctrines in LDS such as: 1.God once being a man (other than as manifested in flesh as Jesus Christ) 2. Men becoming Gods 3. A Heavenly Mother 4. God as three beings 5. Penal Oath temple rituals (Joseph Smith and BoM warn against them) 6. Temple recommends/requirements for the kingdom 7. Polygamy (Joseph Smith was not a polygamist, Brigham Young was) 8. Emphasis on expensive temples while there are poor among us. 9. Emphasis on following a false prophet / man, should only follow Jesus Christ 10. Definition of God's true church. (D&C 10:67-68) 11: “Covenant Path” rather than Doctrine of Christ 3 Nephi 5:32 RLDS (3 Nephi 11 LDS) 12. secret societies (Skull & Bones, Freemasonry)
@@joesimpson9230 I was wondering about the best way to address your gish-gallop technique in a limited format such as this, but your point #7 made that unnecessary. The historical record is overwhelming that JS was absolutely a polygamist, and the LDS Church doesn’t need “correction” from anyone dishonest enough to argue otherwise.
@@mgy401 That is false as confirmed in court decision. Joseph Smith was only ever married to Emma Smith...just as he and Emma proclaimed. TEMPLE LOT SUIT Beyond all cavil, if human testimony is to place any matter for ever at rest, this church was one in doctrine, government, and purpose from 1830 to June, 1844, when Joseph Smith, its founder, was killed. It had the same federal head, governing bodies, and faith. During this period there was matter fundamental, or affecting its oneness. The only authorized and recognized books of doctrine and laws for the government of the church from 1830 to 1846 were the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. The Book of Doctrine and Covenants, which consisted principally of claimed divine revelations to Joseph Smith, was the edition published atKirtland, Ohio, in 1835, and at Nauvoo in 1845.... There can be no question of the fact that Brigham Young's assumed presidency was a bold and bald usurpation. The Book of Doctrine and Covenants (printed in 1846) page 411, containing a revelation to Joseph Smith, January 19, 1841, gave unto them "my servant Joseph, to be a presiding elder over all my church, to be a translator, a revelator, a seer, and a prophet." ... The book clearly taught that the succession should descend lineally and go to the first-born. Joseph Smith so taught, and, before his taking off, publicly proclaimed his son Joseph, the present head of Complainant Church, his successor, and he was so anointed.... The Book of Mormon itself inveighed against the sin of polygamy.... Conformably to the Book of Mormon, the Book of Doctrine and Covenants expressly declared "that we believe that one man should have but one wife, and one woman but one husband." And this declaration of the church on this subject reappeared in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, editions of 1846 and 1856. Its first appearance as a dogma of the church (the dogma of polygamy) was in the Utah Church in 1852. Claim is made by the Utah Church that this doctrine is predicated of a revelation made to Joseph Smith in July, 1843. No such revelation was ever made public during the life of Joseph Smith, and under the law of the church it could not become an article of faith and belief until submitted to and adopted by the church. This was never done .... The Utah Church further departed from the principles and doctrines of the original church by changing in their teaching the first statement in the Article of Faith, which was, "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost," and in lieu thereof taught the doctrine of "Adam-god worship." ... It has introduced societies of a secret order, and established secret oaths and covenants, contrary to the book of teachings of the old church. It has changed the duties of the President, and of the Twelve, and established the doctrine to "Obey Counsel," and has changed the order of the "Seventy, or Evangelists." ... A considerable number of the officers and members of the church at Nauvoo did not ally themselves with any of the factions, and wherever they were they held onto the faith, refused to follow Brigham Young to Utah, and ever repudiated the doctrine of polygamy, which was the great rock of offense on which the church split after the death of Joseph Smith. In 1852 the scattered fragments of the church, the remnants of those who held to the fortunes of the present Joseph Smith, son of the so-called "Martyr," gathered together sufficiently for a nucleus of organization. They took the name of "The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints," and avowed their allegiance to the teachings of the ancient church; and their epitome of faith adopted, while containing differences in phraseology, in its essentials is but a reproduction of that of the church as it existed from 1830 to 1844. To-day they are twenty-five thousand strong. [At present, 1911, the membership is about sixty thousand. -- E. A. S.] It is charged by the Respondents, as an echo of the Utah Church, that Joseph Smith, "the Martyr," secretly taught and practiced polygamy; and the Utah contingent furnishes the evidence, and two of the women, to prove this fact. It perhaps would be uncharitable to say of these women that they have borne false testimony as to their connection with Joseph Smith; but, in view of all the evidence and circumstances surrounding the alleged intercourse, it is difficult to escape the conclusion that at most they were but sports in "nest hiding." In view of the contention of the Salt Lake party, that polygamy obtained at Nauvoo as early as 1841, it must be a little embarrassing to President Woodruff of that organization when he is confronted, as he was in the evidence in this case, with a published card in the church organ at Nauvoo in October, 1843, certifying that he knew of no other rule or system of marriage than the one published in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and that the "secret wife system," charged against the church, was a creature of invention by one Doctor Bennett, and that they knew of no such society. That certificate was signed by the leading members of the church, including John Taylor the former President of the Utah Church. And a similar certificate was published by the Ladies' Relief Society of the same place, signed by Emma Smith, the wife of Joseph Smith, and Phoebe Woodruff, wife of the present President Woodruff. No such marriage ever occurred under the rules of the church, and no offspring came from the imputed illicit intercourse, although Joseph Smith was in the full vigor of young manhood, and his wife Emma, was giving birth to healthy children in regular order, and was enciente at the time of Joseph's death.But if it were conceded that Joseph Smith, and Hyrum, his brother, did secretly practice concubinage, is the church to be charged with those liaisons, and the doctrine of polygamy to be predicated thereon of the church? If so, I suspect the doctrine of polygamy might be imputed to many of the Gentile churches. Certainly it was never promulgated, taught, nor recognized, as a doctrine of the church prior to the assumption of Brigham Young. -- Decision of Judge Philips in Temple Lot Case, pp. 20-26.
Agreed. The two beliefs systems are not the same religion. Why would a “merger” between mormons and Christians ever be considered? Ultimately we follow different gods. Pretty simple, right?
@@michaelsterling2650 God of the Book of Mormon is same as God of the Bible. 2 Nephi 13:32 (31:21 LDS) And now behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, And the only and true doctrine of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God without end. Amen. 3 Nephi 4:42-44 RLDS (9 LDS) Yea, verily I say unto you, If ye will come unto me, ye shall have eternal life. Behold, mine arm of mercy is extended towards you, and whosoever will come, him will I receive; and blessed are those who come unto me. Behold I am Jesus Christ, the son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. Mosiah 1:102 (3:8 LDS) 'And He shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; And His mother shall be called Mary; Mosiah 5:44 (7:27 LDS) And because he said unto them, that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; Mosiah 8:13 (13:34 LDS) Have they not said that God himself should come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth? 2 Nephi 11 RLDS (2 Nephi 25 LDS) "Yea, behold, I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven, save it be this Jesus Christ of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved." 2 Nephi 7:42 RLDS And remember after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved. Mosiah 1:108 (3:12 LDS) But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God; for salvation cometh to none such, except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.
but let's be honest, the group is a cult. ANY organization that identifies their religion as the "only true church" can be counted among the JW's, Catholics, Seventh-day Adventists, Unitarians, Worldwide/Restored Church of God and Family International. Church never means building or organization and the 'church' is the identity of the body of believers, not a congregation or denomination. Those that try to stake the claim they are the only one that God approves automatically reveals they are a cult.
@@HelloSaintsI don’t think Martin Luther would have enjoyed the connotation of being called a cult leader. If you respect Martin Luther, you accept that he wanted glory for God, not himself. If you don’t respect Martin Luther, you call him a cult leader who wanted glory for himself. People don’t generally tell their friends how excited they are about this new cult they have joined. The word ‘cult’ is used by people on the outside who worry about the excessive, misplaced, and harmful worshipping of the cultists. People who call Christianity a cult in general aren’t generally talking about it favorably. The word ‘cult’ is usually negative, rarely neutral, and never positive.
@@HelloSaintsAlso your exact words in the video were “Is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints a cult? I personally don’t think there is a yes or no answer.” You didn’t say “you won’t call it a cult.” You left it open as if you might call it a cult, but you are undecided because of the complexity.
The doctrinal exclusion This type of argument claims that since the Latter-day Saints do not always interpret the Bible as other Christians do, we must not be Christians. But, in fact, other denominations also differ among themselves doctrinally, and it is unreasonable to demand that Latter-day Saints conform to a single standard of “Christian” doctrine when no such single standard exists. For example, the Latter-day Saints are accused of worshiping a “different god” because we do not believe in the traditional Trinity. “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost” (A of F 1:1) as taught in the New Testament. What Latter-day Saints do not believe is the non-Biblical doctrine formulated by the councils of Nicaea (A.D. 325) and Chalcedon (A.D. 451) centuries after the time of Jesus-the doctrine that God is three coequal persons in one substance or essence. We do not believe it because it is not scriptural. As Harper’s Bible Dictionary states: “The formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.” Jesus didn’t teach the Nicene doctrine of the Trinity. The New Testament writers didn’t have any idea of it. The doctrine itself wasn’t invented until centuries later. So one can’t say the Latter-day Saints are not true Christians for not accepting it, unless one also excludes Jesus, his disciples, and the New Testament Church, who similarly did not know or teach it. Latter-day Saints do believe that God the Father has a physical body. This view is attacked as “non-Christian” by critics who often cite John 4:24, which states in the King James version that “God is a spirit.” However, since there is no indefinite article (a, or an) in the Greek language from which this verse is translated, the consensus among biblical scholars is that there should not be an indefinite article at John 4:24. It should simply read “God is spirit.” In other words, this scripture does not limit God to being only a spirit, but merely includes spirit as one of his attributes. After all, we also read that “God is light” (1 Jn. 1:5) and “God is love” (1 Jn. 4:8), and yet no one interprets these verses to mean that God is only light, or God is only love. Certainly, the member of the Godhead called the Holy Ghost is spirit, but that fact tells us nothing about whether or not God the Father has a physical body. Finally, quite often we hear that Latter-day Saints are not Christians because true Christians believe in salvation by grace, while the Latter-day Saints believe in salvation through our own good works. But this is a misunderstanding. Yes, Latter-day Saints do believe we must serve God with all our “heart, might, mind, and strength” (D&C 4:2). But the Book of Mormon makes perfectly clear that it is impossible for us to completely earn or deserve our blessings from God (Mosiah 2:21, 24); that redemption can never come through individual effort alone, but only through the Atonement of Jesus Christ (2 Ne. 2:3, 5-8); and that-after all we can do (Alma 24:11)-we are saved by grace (2 Ne. 10:24; 2 Ne. 25:23).
@allysonrk You do know that the doctrine and concept of the trinity was not invented at Nicea, it was a doctrine long before by the early church fathers you don’t trust me look it up and do your own research. Church fathers from the 2nd and 3rd century believed it and taught it and the concept of the trinity is found both in the old and New Testament so it is not something man made. Please research this before blindly listening to what someone else said. I mean this with all due respect I love you guys and your community but I strongly disagree with your statement and I say that with respect. God bless you
Yet, instead of looking at it through the lens of which group is correct or incorrect on this topic, isn’t it more prudent to recognize that the two groups actually aren’t the same and actually do worship different gods. It isn’t a “who is right” scenario, rather a “we can’t both be right” scenario.
if you just read 2 Ne. 25:23 and compare that to Ephesians 2:8-9 you'll see why we differ. They both start out exactly the same, but then the second part says "after all you can do" in one book and "not of works" in the other. Polar opposites.
I say this with respect and no ill will against you or any other Latter Day Saint, but the bible is clear that here is only one God read the Old Testament and see for yourself and the New Testament claim that Jesus is God and the father is God and that the holy spirit is God not gods but the true living God YHWH (Jehovah) and that proves the trinity and the early church fathers taught this and believed it long before the council of Nicaea. Do your own research please and don’t listen to anyone blindly not me neither for that matter. Do your research and you will see that Christianity comes out on top and that the Bible and the early church confirms the trinity and all other mainstream Christian doctrines. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. I say this with respect and love and God bless you and take care of yourself my friend.
When Evangelicals ask “Are LDS members Christians or is the LDS church a Christian church? what they are actually asking is “Are they going to heaven?” I’m saying this as someone who grew up as a very committed evangelical. That is the foundation of the question. I think the idea that as an evangelical we were so obsessed with deciding whose faith met the theological standard of making it to heaven is ridiculous. I am now Catholic and the understanding is so different. I’m so happy to be freed from the idea that we have to give a theological litmus test for heaven.
This is an excellent point. I think that is what the label connotes for Protestants and Evangelicals. It is why they can't say that latter-day saints are Christians because they don't think that we are "saved."
@@gwengold8154 yes this is exactly why! It’s sad. If a Catholic says the LDS church is not Christian, they mean that their baptism does not meet the trinitarian requirement to officially count for membership in the catholic (meaning universal Christian) church. All LDS people I’ve met would agree with this statement (same reason why converts to the LDS church from other Christian traditions have to be re-baptized). They do not mean they aren’t going to heaven as we don’t believe that only people who believe exactly as we do go to heaven. I would say that LDS people are Christians meaning people who follow Jesus even if their baptism doesn’t match our requirements.
@saralyg That's lovely. And I learned something. I didn't realize that Catholics are so open-minded about who might inherit heaven. Yes, latter-day saints are the same concerning baptism. We require other Christian converts to be re-baptized. I don't lose any sleep over the fact that other Christian churches require latter-day saint converts to be re-baptized. ;-)
I haven’t watched yet, so I’m anxious to see. When Christ comes to reign, He will have His church. I would have to do more research on the topic, but will Christ’s church be set up like when he was on the earth? Or will it look different? All I know is I’m following Him. I imagine anyone who loves Him will do the same.
When Jesus Christ returns everything is going to come together for all those that love Christ and seek to be His disciples. In the meantime, it is important to reach out to our brothers and sisters of other faiths with love. Most followers of Jesus Christ want to be included together, so to be told we don’t fit in sometimes hurts, however, we need to find our own seat in the cafeteria and invite others to sit with us. Be okay with being excluded, and just start inviting! I love the friendship I see between Jeff and Kurt. I’m doing my own exploring with curiosity in Judaism. I’m making friends with some in my local synagogue. I’ve come to better understand my own LDS faith and to get an entirely fresh understanding on the importance of having modern-day prophets. I thought I appreciated President Nelson before, but never as much as I do now. Also, imagining a world without acknowledging and loving Jesus Christ? No. I’d never want that. To no longer have the New Testament and the Book of Mormon and the D&C, etc? have such a new appreciation for these precious things. Some will feel the Holy Spirit testify of the truths of The Book of Mormon in this life, and some will not, but it will be. We just need to be patient and invite others to our table. Thank you Kurt and Jeff. This was great and I loved this!
I have been a member of the LDS faith since I was 1 (that's when my parents joined the church). After 67 years I can't even think about not being LDS. I have also watched many of the Helo Saints videos. If I am honest with my feelings, I (and probably many other LDS viewers) hope that the end result of all of this exploration ends in Pastor Jeffs conversion to our faith. As to a possible merge (before the return of the Savior) it would basically mean that the Evangelical church would have to change their beliefs and accept ours, or we would basically have to give up many of ours. Think of Temple ordinances, Prophets, the condition of heaven and most importantly the three separate personages of God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. These (and many more) make up the basic foundation of our church, and something that I for one would not let go of. So until the Savior returns and explains to all people the truth and creates or expands His church - I could see a simpler church that follows the teachings of the living Christ - based on His teachings of love and repentance, there cannot be a merger, only conversion.
I believe there will be a merger just as Jesus Christ prayed for His church to be one. But both denominations will have to abandon falsehoods first. The Book of Mormon is true, and another witness of the same gospel of Jesus Christ as the Bible. Joseph Smith was a true prophet who worshipped Jesus Christ. The church was infiltrated by wicked men. When Joseph Smith was murdered, Brigham Young usurped control of the church and led some of the saints to SLC, Utah (many refused to follow him). Brigham Young introduced many false doctrines into that denomination including polygamy, men becoming Gods, Adam God, blood atonement of men, penal oath temple rituals, a Heavenly Mother, Lucifer being Jesus' brother, incorrect definition of Christ’s church, etc. None of that is in the Book of Mormon or teachings of Joseph Smith, but Brigham Young and the wicked leaders under and after him have pretended that it came from Joseph Smith in order to gain acceptance for their own evil and lustful desires. The LDS church of today is Brigham Young's denomination and is apostate from the teachings of the church under Joseph Smith.
I love the questions at the end. If my daughter left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and became an Evangelical... yes, I would love that so much more than her becoming an atheist. A comparison would be my daughter leaving the Evangelical tradition to become a Catholic Nun. I would see it as sad that she would no longer enjoy the blessing of marriage and having her own children, but I would be happy she still had dedication to Jesus.
Hebrews 1:1-4 The Supremacy of God’s Son [1] Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, [2] but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. [3] He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, [4] having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. (ESV)
@@BrendonKing yes , God spoke through his son Jesus Christ when he was on the earth. When Jesus left, communication was through Peter the chief apostle (prophet) and the other apostles.
Loved this 2-way conversation. I think many appreciate hearing honest opinions and differences said in respectful and kind ways. We have so much in common, and I love feeling a little more connected regardless of differences in our faiths. Wonderful. ❤️ thank you Pastor Jeff.
This question was answered a long time ago. JSH 1: 18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)-and which I should join. 19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” 20 He again forbade me to join with any of them… D&C 1:30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually
I love you, guys! Thank you so much!!! I am so amazed by how honestly and truly you look for the truth and love, Jeff! We really need more people like you, and you are doing so much to help others understand better and show more love towards one another ❤ Thanks again to both of you ❤❤
No, I don't think so unless they accept that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God - and that we have a revelation today through a LIVING PROPHET that talks to God… but we are all children of God.
Um CIRobite, even if people believed Joseph smith is a prophet that still doesn’t mean the Brighamite church is that church LOL Brigham young was a horrible evil man in some ways worse than Joseph smith
I came across Hello Saints channel last year when experiencing a faith crisis in the LDS church. I have been an active follower since. This poscast was phenomenal. You are both great examples and I love the WE attitude vs US and THEM.
It is hard for many Christians to come to the realization that God is bigger than 66 scrolls of the Bible. It is hard for many in the LDS denomination to come to the realization that God is bigger than their denomination. When growing up RLDS, I heard the "we are the one true church" often...although not as often I think as it is repeated in the LDS. One thing that I have gained from leaving that denomination (after they became CoC and way leftist and somewhat abandoned roots) was a realization that God was bigger than the box I had put Him in. He was present in the first congregation (Evangelical) that I started attending. He was also present in the next congregation (Evangelical) I went to also. They absolutely missed on the clarity of the scriptures of the Book of Mormon and they are far from perfect, but God still moves there regularly. One day (I believe soon) I know that God will bring His church together and I believe He is starting to bring down some man-made denominational walls even now. He is a big big God. He is a good good God. Looking forward to Zion!
I enjoyed the discussion. I'm wondering, Pastor Jeff, what you have learned about your own faith by studying the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
I myself learn so much about my faith when I review other religions like Mormons, JW's, Catholics and Seventh-day Adventists. It helps me understand the Bible more because I need to come up with answers to the questions they have about our differences.
I wish it was like that, Kurt. I've not experienced any LDS parents who are totally cool with a kid leaving the church for any reason to go anywhere else. If you believe the doctrine that is taught, it literally means their kid just broke up their eternal family.
No. There are too many differences. I know you want to say what do we have in common, but every lds belief that is the same as Christianity is twisted in some way. Nothing is exactly the same.
I think it’s amazing what Pastor Jeff is doing here. Thank you so much for what you are trying to do. This is such a sensitive topic. It’s so hard to talk about differences in our religions while being fully respectful, as Jesus would have us be. In the episode of ‘The Chosen’ where Jesus goes back to Nazareth and says “I am the law of Moses”, that passage of scripture shows, (and in the series it becomes so clear) how hard it must have been for people to accept Jesus. We think that people were so blind and hard hearted, that they didn’t see the Christ in front of them, despite all the miracles. But now we know that he was the Messiah, it’s easy for us to judge the Pharisees. The things that He taught were so ‘provocative’ or ‘offensive’ to what the people believed then, “contradicting” the law of Moses, that it was in fact very hard for them to accept it. Now, we have the same sensitive situation, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believes in continuous revelation with living prophets. The Bible is the word of God, but, there are more nations than one, God also spoke to other nations, hence the Book of Mormon, and that God still speaks today, “God is the same yesterday today and forever”. For other Christians this will be very hard to believe… to accept there is more scripture revealed by God, and, without receiving a testimony of themselves, how could they believe? We (members of the church of Jesus Christ) cannot judge who doesn’t believe, it is completely understandable, they can’t just accept something new as truth, or as a true prophet, you must learn about it, ask, and receive from God. A testimony is something personal. For an evangelical, somethings may sound (forgive me the term) ‘a bit crazy’, but it’s because they are new - if God did speak to prophets in other parts of the world, it would be normal (or at least logical) that there will be doctrines that were revealed more clearly to some prophets and not to others. The amazing thing is that the Book of Mormon doesn’t contradict the Bible in anything, it’s just that somethings are clearer in the Book of Mormon and others are clearer in the Bible. But in summary we cannot judge people by what we think or believe... We just need to be humble and value what other people believe in even if we don’t understand it.
As a member of the Church, us and evangelicals and another faiths have a lot to learn from each other to be better worshipers of God. From my perspective the Church especially our general culture could use a lot of improving by being more accepting of Christ's Grace instead of being so anxious about our salvation or even exaltation. It's about a balance of Grace vs works. Being "anxiously engaged in a good cause" absolutely does not mean having anxiety about whether you're good or not. I had a brother commit suicide recently and I strongly believe that if he leaned/believed more on Christ's Grace, things could have been different.
14:49 this is exactly where I've come to with us being called "Christian" or not. I don't need to sit at the Christian lunch table to have my relationship with God and Jesus Christ.
My husband and I served a mission in Jacksonville Florida. We had so many people see the name of Jesus Christ on our name badge and wanted to talk about how great Jesus was in our lives and we loved that. We would never say that other religions are Christians so I don’t know why other Christian’s feel it is right to pass judgement. That is for God and Christ to do.
We really need to combine, not by organizational but to strengthen each other to withstand what is coming in the world to protect our Christian rights.
Such a strange conversation. What I have learned about evangelicals from Pastor Jeff is that they don’t believe in ordinances, priesthood authority, or a physical Godhood. They don’t believe in the Book of Mormon as scripture or the importance of living prophets. These differences are real doctrinal differences and there is absolutely no way to “merge” the beliefs. We already have salvation by accepting Christ as the evangelicals require. Our belief reinforces the idea that each person has a right to choose what they want to believe. We already focus on commonality. But merging, diluting our doctrine? Absolutely NO. The restoration is not the same as the reformation. These podcasts tend to present The Church of Jesus Christ in the Evangelical light rather than its own light. The title of this podcast is designed to grab your attention and is rather tongue in cheek.
"Following the living prophet" is not scriptural. Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon teach to follow Jesus Christ only. Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon also teach that there is only one God. Much reconciliation could be made if denominations would take a look again at what the scriptures teach, and abandon the contrary doctrines of man that have been adopted.
In the New Testament, all believers, men, women, children and even black people have been priests now for 2,000 years. It is not a position in a church. It is who we are in Christ. The true and living God never banned anyone from the priesthood until 1978. I Peter 2:5, 9 Revelation 1:6; 5:10; The Aaronic priesthood belongs only to the descendants of Levi. No man from any other tribe ever had the Aaronic priesthood. Only men from the ages of 25-50 had the Aaronic priesthood. Twelve year old's were not slaughtering animals. Jesus Christ, his disciples, and the men in the BOM never had the Aaronic priesthood. They were not from the tribe of Levi. The Melchizedek priesthood belongs exclusively to Jesus Christ. Only Christ is without mother and father, King of Salem and King of righteousness. Hebrews 7
Evangelicals and Latter day Saints will never merge. We worship different God's. The true and living God the Father is invisible and a spirit. I Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. Moses endured, as seeing him who is invisible.-Hebrews 11:27. Col. 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
I’m guessing that you believe in Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit. So do we. There is no one else we worship. Prophets and apostles encourage us to follow Christ as our Savior and Exempler. And prophets and apostles are found in the scriptures. Abraham, Noah, and Moses were all prophets. Christ picked 12 apostles to lead the church and guide it after he was crucified.
We worship Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit and no one else. We believe in prophets and apostles. Abraham, Noah, and Moses were all prophets. Jesus chose apostles to lead the church after he died. Modern prophets encourage us to be diligent in following Christ.
The gospel of the church is actually much easier to comprehend than what Jeff teaches.the Godhead that he teaches is mind blowing to me. Makes no sense at all to me. To me the bible teaches the God head as the church teaches it. Even than Jeff does not understand Christ as I do . I know He is a Christian. And wish they would give us the same treatment. Christ is vital to our Faith. Without the Atonement all would be lost. But we believe He expects much of us. faith without works is dead. If ye love me keep my commandments. What manner of man aught ye to be, even as I am. grace has always been vital to us. The scriptures say we must become of one . Carol
Au contror mon frere, the lds view of the god head is sooooo confusing. Trinitarianism makes so much more sense. Even if it doesn't make any sense sometimes. The lds view just doesn't make any sense. God being a man of flesh and bones, becoming exalted, residing in a star near Kolob, having a heavenly wife named heavenly mother, making babies in spirit heaven, jesus christ being created, the holy spirit being a personage, and how all 3 persons are 3 separate beings. Its just such a different religion from Christianity. Glory to Jesus Christ 🙏☦️♥️
The Godhead described in the Book of Mormon is true. Sadly, the LDS don't really teach that. Trinitarians also teach a falsehood pretending that God is "3 persons". There is only one God and there will ever only be one God. Jesus Christ is God. Jesus Christ is both the Father (because of His Spirit) and the Son (because of His flesh). Father and Son and Holy Spirit are different manifestations / characters / titles of the one God. Mosiah 8:28-32 RLDS (15:1-5 LDS) And now Abinadi saith unto them: "I would that ye should understand that God Himself shall come down among the children of men and shall redeem His people; And because He dwelleth in flesh, He shall be called the Son of God; And having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son - The Father, because He was conceived by the power of God, and the Son, because of the flesh, thus becoming the Father and Son, And They are one God, yea, the Very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth - And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation and yieldeth not to the temptation, But suffereth Himself to be mocked and scourged and cast out and disowned by His people. Mosiah 5:44 (7:27 LDS) And because he said unto them, that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; Mosiah 8:13 (13:34 LDS) Have they not said that God himself should come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth? Alma 8 79-82, 104 RLDS (11:26-29 LDS) And Zeezrom saith unto him: "Thou sayest there is a true and a living God?" And Amulek saith: "Yea, there is a true and a living God." Now Zeezrom saith: "Is there more than one God?" And he answered: "No." And shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son and God the Father and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, To be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. Alma 8 (11:38-39 LDS) 93 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: "Is the Son of God the Very Eternal Father?" 94 And Amulek saith unto him: "Yea, He is the Very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth and all things which in them is; 95 He is the beginning and the end, the first and the last; Mosiah 8:91 (16:15 LDS) Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, which is the Very Eternal Father. Amen.
@@Compulsive-Elk7103 Lookup the word "person" in a dictionary. It is defined as a being. God is not 3 beings. The Book of Mormon is true. 2 Nephi 13:32 (31:21 LDS) And now behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, And the only and true doctrine of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God without end. Amen.
@@joesimpson9230 “I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods,” (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370).
I appreciate this respectful dialog. Thank you! Now more than ever, we need all Christian denominations to rally and combine efforts to fight against evil that is so prevalent in today’s world.
Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, “I will dwell in them and walk among them; And I will be their God, and they shall be My people. “Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,” says the Lord. “And do not touch what is unclean; And I will welcome you. “And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,” Says the Lord Almighty. - 2 Corinthians 6:14-18
3 Nephi 4:42-44 RLDS (9 LDS) Yea, verily I say unto you, If ye will come unto me, ye shall have eternal life. Behold, mine arm of mercy is extended towards you, and whosoever will come, him will I receive; and blessed are those who come unto me. Behold I am Jesus Christ, the son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
@@joesimpson9230 why are you spamming the board by using some obscure passage from a book written by some guy that plagiarized most of it and then tried to get it copyrighted as his own original work?
@@georgebauerschmidt5289 You're on the wrong channel if you can't bear to hear about the Book of Mormon. What specifically of that scripture offends you? That Jesus Christ is the way to eternal life? Does His gospel offend you? 3 Nephi 12 25 "Behold, I have given unto you My gospel, And this is the gospel which I have given unto you - That I came into the world to do the will of My Father because My Father sent Me; 26 And My Father sent Me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; And after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, I might draw all men unto Me; 27 That as I have been lifted up by men, even so should men be lifted up by the Father to stand before Me to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil; 28 And for this cause have I been lifted up; Therefore, according to the power of the Father, I will draw all men unto Me, that they may be judged according to their works. 29 "And it shall come to pass that whoso repenteth and is baptized in My name shall be filled; And if he endureth to the end, Behold, him will I hold guiltless before My Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world; 30 And he that endureth not unto the end, The same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire from whence they can no more return because of the justice of the Father. "And this is the word which He hath given unto the children of men; 31 And for this cause He fulfilleth the words which He hath given, And He lieth not, but fulfilleth all His words; And no unclean thing can enter into His kingdom; 32 Therefore, nothing entereth into His rest, Save it be those who have washed their garments in My blood because of their faith and the repentance of all their sins and their faithfulness unto the end. 33 "Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth! and come unto Me! and be baptized in My name! That ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, That ye may stand spotless before Me at the last day! 34 "Verily, verily I say unto you, this is My gospel. "And ye know the things that ye must do in My church, For the works which ye have seen Me do, that shall ye also do; 35 For that which ye have seen Me do, even that shall ye do; Therefore, if ye do these things, blessed are ye, For ye shall be lifted up at the last day.
@@joesimpson9230 I can read the gospel in the Bible, organized does that offend you? You don't read the q'ran why not? And Joey wasn't a prophet, just someone that used a trick to find lost treasures and copy it as a new religion
@@georgebauerschmidt5289 I can read the gospel of Jesus Christ is the Bible too. And from the Bible I see that it never mentions the word "Bible" nor does it pretend that all of God's words would be limited to a Bible...or limited at all. Jesus Christ was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and that certainly included the lost sheep of the 10 lost tribes of Israel scattered across the earth. They too heard His voice. Matthew 15:24 “But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
John 21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."
2Esdras 13:40-45 Those are the ten tribes, which were carried away prisoners out of their own land in the time of Osea the king, whom Salmanasar the king of Assyria led away captive, and he carried them over the waters, and so came they into another land. But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt, That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land. And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river. For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over. For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
My Ward Council (the leaders of each organization of the ward) in California was just sharing about how helpful the "Leading Saints" podcast has been for certain of them, and then, in an answer to prayer, I was led back into watching "Hello Saints" and come across this episode. I think the Lord might be using your channel to help me get to "Leading Saints" because there must be something I should be learning.
God didn't add another day in your life because you need it he gave it because someone out there needs you praise God praying for Everyone everyday God bless you all.
I have been saying this for years. We are on the same team when it comes to good and evil, morals, families, etc. Just think of the amount of influence we could have on the world if we worked together, and ignored our minor differences. We don't have to merge to work together. Even the Jews who don't believe that Christ is our savior are on our side.
Is the major differences that these two faiths can ever come together. They are fundamental different beliefs on the nature of God, the mission of Jesus, and what it means to receive eternal life.
From what I know, people can become angels when they die in the LDS faith. So, it’s entirely bonkers for Noah to be Gabriel, though I don’t see anything biblically that would suggest people become angels.
How can two different faiths merge or join one into the other to become one church, when the God head of the two faiths are so very different. LDS believe God the father is one and Jesus Christ the son is two and the holy Ghost is three without body.The evangelical believe the father and the son and the holy spirit are one and the same.
But many Christian denominations teach that God is "3 persons" and a person is a being according to dictionary definitions. That is contrary to both the scriptures of the Bible and the Book of Mormon which teach that there is only one God, and that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is one God. I agree that the LDS don't teach that. 2 Nephi 13:32 (31:21 LDS) And now behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, And the only and true doctrine of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God without end. Amen. Mormon 3:29 And He hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, Whereby he that is found guiltless before Him at the judgment day hath it given unto them to dwell in the presence of God in His kingdom, To sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above unto the Father and unto the Son and unto the Holy Ghost, which is one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end. D&C LDS 20:28, RLDS 17:5h Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen. Book of Mormon - Testimony of the Three Witnesses And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen. Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Martin Harris.
I respectfully disagree if I'm right in understand the context you are referencing. do you believe or understand that LDS faith teaches that Jesus Christ because of his infinite atonement is the God of this universe. His father "Elohim" is the God of everything as far as we know in this estate or dispensation. We are taught that there will be many Gods throughout the eternities. @@joesimpson9230
@@patriot8087 Yes, the LDS are taught the falsehood of many Gods despite what the scriptures of the Bible and the Book of Mormon say. The scriptures teach that: 1. there is only one God, and will only ever be one God 2. the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one God 3. Jesus Christ is God 4. Jesus Christ is both the Father (because of His Spirit in Him) and the Son (because of His flesh). LDS don't teach that because the leaders are apostate from the truth.
@@patriot8087 The Son (humanness) of Jesus praying to the Father (Spirit and God). That same Spirit of God dwells in Jesus Christ. Luke 10:23 Inspired Version (Joseph Smith Translation) All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it. Mosiah 8:28-32 RLDS (15:1-5 LDS) And now Abinadi saith unto them: "I would that ye should understand that God Himself shall come down among the children of men and shall redeem His people; And because He dwelleth in flesh, He shall be called the Son of God; And having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son - The Father, because He was conceived by the power of God, and the Son, because of the flesh, thus becoming the Father and Son, And They are one God, yea, the Very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth - And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation and yieldeth not to the temptation, But suffereth Himself to be mocked and scourged and cast out and disowned by His people. Mosiah 5:44 (7:27 LDS) And because he said unto them, that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; Mosiah 8:91 (16:15 LDS) Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, which is the Very Eternal Father. Amen. Alma 8 (11:38-39 LDS) 93 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: "Is the Son of God the Very Eternal Father?" 94 And Amulek saith unto him: "Yea, He is the Very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth and all things which in them is; 95 He is the beginning and the end, the first and the last; Alma 8 79-82, 104 RLDS (11:26-29 LDS) And Zeezrom saith unto him: "Thou sayest there is a true and a living God?" And Amulek saith: "Yea, there is a true and a living God." Now Zeezrom saith: "Is there more than one God?" And he answered: "No." And shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son and God the Father and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, To be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. 3 Nephi 1 LDS 12 “And it came to pass that he cried mightily unto the Lord all that day; and behold, the voice of the Lord came unto him, saying: 13 Lift up your head and be of good cheer; for behold, the time is at hand, and on this night shall the sign be given, and on the morrow come I into the world, to show unto the world that I will fulfil all that which I have caused to be spoken by the mouth of my holy prophets. 14 Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son-of the Father because of me and of the son because of my flesh. And behold, the time is at hand, and this night shall the sign be given.” Ether 1 (3 LDS) 72 And the Lord said unto him: "Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon Me flesh and blood; 77 Behold I Am He which was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem My people Behold I Am Jesus Christ I Am the Father and the Son. 80 "Seest thou that ye are created after Mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after Mine own image; 81 Behold, this body which ye now behold is the body of My Spirit; And man have I created after the body of My Spirit; And even as I appear unto thee to be in the Spirit, will I appear unto My people in the flesh." 101 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in Me, " saith the Lord, "even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in Me, Then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all My revelations, " saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth and all things that in them is. 107 And I Am the same that leadeth men to all good."He that will not believe My words will not believe Me, that I Am; And he that will not believe Me will not believe the Father which sent Me; 108 For behold, I Am the Father; I Am the light and the life and the truth of the world. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. John 14:8-11 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
I'm not so sure this is true, even. God doesn't force either moral or intellectual assent. But, praise God, I DO believe we will live closer to one another, as brothers and sisters in Christ. And it will be so with many other honorable people of many other faiths who are humble and willing to receive all the light God, in his wisdom, is willing to dispense to each of us.
Its true "for those WHO CHOOSE" to merge! Its correct The Lord "will not force anyone's hand or feet to move if they dont want to". But, If the Lord says, move your feet, will you be willingly obedient to do so??@@towardcivicliteracy
Love the conversation. I think the perspective on if the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints is Christian comes down to how different ones beliefs can be especilly beliefs about Jesus Christ and still be considered christian. There is variation within the christian Faith's about Jesus Christ and his mission. I don't see the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints as being too far away from the christian beliefs to not be Christian. I think the real issue is that latter day saints core doctrine is a belief in Jesus Christ so labeling us not christian can come across as denial of our most central doctrine.
Mormonism teaches a different Jesus, Jesus is not created, he was not born to a Father and Mother God in heaven, Jesus is our creator, he cannot create himself. you must have the biblical Jesus to be a Christian.
@@hollayevladimiroff131 Mormonism does not teach that Jesus was created. And does teach that Jesus is the creator. You seem to have knowledge of some of our teachings but clearly not all.
@@justjamie7577 perhaps you are new the organization, but yes, Mormonism not only teaches that Jesus was created and brother to lucifer, but also that He is very limited with forgiving sins.
@@georgebauerschmidt5289 no, we are coeternal with the father. We existed in some form or fashion before becoming spirit children. It's a hard concept to get your head around and it's not talked about often. There was never a time when Jesus Christ or any of us didn't exist. We teach that Lucifer, Jesus, you, me and everyone are spirit children of God the Father. Lucifer and a third of the spirit children rebelled. Cain and Abel were brothers. Good people can have evil brothers, it doesn't make them any less good. And no, we do not teach that Jesus will forgive a Very limited number of people. We believe that Christ is just and merciful. Where most religions teach God will send people to hell, we teach that they will go to the tellestrial kingdom of heaven which is glorious. Glory instead of hell sounds like forgiveness to me.
Sure they could merge as long as the evangelical church agrees to forsake all of its previous teachings, change its name to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, aligns all of its doctrines, policies, and and teachings to be identical to the LDS church, agrees to follow each and every single rule, policy, and doctrine of the LDS church. That includes all leadership and all members to get baptized and pay 10% tithing to the LDS church. As long as they do all that and more, than sure they could merge.
Interesting chat, Jeff, but it is absolutely impossible for the two churches to merge. EV's seem to have a yuge problem admitting that since Adam to the second coming... prophets have always been in the plan. As well, the knowledge that Jesus Christ is a Spirit who is a perfect heavenly man ... just like His Father is. Together, they are one LORD. One church, one Godhead and one doctrine. :>) Ephesians 4 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,... ... 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, *PROPHETS* ; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the *knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man* , unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
@@BrendonKing ... Can you be more specific, Brendon? Surly you can't be referring to the part where it says Jesus, being a spirit who is an eternal heavenly man, is the spitt'in image of His Father. In fact it says Jesus is the EXPRESS image of His Father. Both perfect heavenly Beings. I am very aware of that in Hebrews 1 and how much it supports my original comment. Other than that you might have to help me out some. Thanks.
@@godsoffspring4195 Hebrews 1:1-4 The Supremacy of God’s Son [1] Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, [2] but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. [3] He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, [4] having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. (ESV) Very clearly there is a shift from prophetic instruction. "BUT IN THESE LAST DAYS".
@@godsoffspring4195 Hebrews 1:1-4 The Supremacy of God’s Son [1] Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, [2] but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. [3] He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, [4] having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. (ESV)
@@godsoffspring4195Hebrew talks about how Jesus fulfilled all the OT commandments and ordinances and covenants necessary to be in full relationship with God. Because of this, there is no more need for a temple, or ongoing revelation, because Jesus has provided full access to the Father through his shed blood
I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed this format much better than some of the others on this channel. It was less preachy and more like friends of different faiths talking. Kurt is awesome and he was a great pick to have on the program. 😊 Lastly, I gotta say that my opinion of you went way up upon hearing that you wrote in Mitt Romney for president. ❤
Great discussion - it would be wonderful if all evangelical and LDS people could do the same. Unfortunately PGP (pride, greed, or power) somehow enter into many of those conversations and they end up being a debate or worse. I understand where Pastor Jeff is coming from to some degree but find it difficult to understand why God would not want to communicate through modern prophets and apostles. He did so after Christ for a while until the apostles were killed off. Why call Paul and not latter-day apostles? Why rely on historical documents collected and canonized during the Council of Nicaea as your sole source of understanding? The prophetic words of the Bible haven’t all been fulfilled yet but evangelicals who claim they are the ones who have the correct interpretations of those are no different than the Pharisees of the Jewish Old Testament who refused to accept that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah. I think the real answer lies in humble prayer. Are you willing to be teachable? Are you seeking real answers or justification for your current beliefs? My personal experience with prayer and being willing to accept things that I disagreed with when I received an answer to the contrary have opened my mind/heart in ways I could never have imagined. There are those who might say I’m being deceived by Satan - but can you show me anywhere that he entices someone to do good or be helpful? Personal revelation is critical to understanding Christ and your relationship with Him. Without personal revelation you will be ever learning but never come to an understanding of the truth. Setting aside personal beliefs is difficult but how else does one become teachable as a small child? Perhaps my biggest concern are those who tell me that I believe in a different Christ than they do. The Christ of the New Testament is my Christ. The Christ of the Book of Mormon is my Christ. They are the same Christ. The only difference I see is that I have more information about Christ because of the Book of Mormon and modern Apostles and Prophets.
Great conversation! I really appreciate Kurt’s approach. I completely agree with Jeff about all the doctrines of the LDS church cluttering up a relationship with Jesus. (Don’t come at me LDS members…I’m stating this is how it was for me.) Since leaving the LDS faith and joining mainstream Christianity I would say my understanding of who Christ is and my relationship with him have greatly improved. I don’t see any successful merging of LDS and EV because there would have to be way too many concessions made on one side or the other.
The Book of Mormon is true, and another witness of the same gospel of Jesus Christ as the Bible. Joseph Smith was a true prophet who worshipped Jesus Christ. The church was infiltrated by wicked men. When Joseph Smith was murdered, Brigham Young usurped control of the church and led some of the saints to SLC, Utah (many refused to follow him). Brigham Young introduced many false doctrines into that denomination including polygamy, men becoming Gods, Adam God, blood atonement of men, penal oath temple rituals, a Heavenly Mother, Lucifer being Jesus' brother, incorrect definition of Christ’s church, etc. None of that is in the Book of Mormon or teachings of Joseph Smith, but Brigham Young and the wicked leaders under and after him have pretended that it came from Joseph Smith in order to gain acceptance for their own evil and lustful desires. The LDS church of today is Brigham Young's denomination and is apostate from the teachings of the church under Joseph Smith.
John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.” To worship in Spirit means that we need to have been moved from spiritual death to spiritual life; done so by repentance of sins and confessed belief in God’s provision of salvation through Jesus Christ. To Worship in truth means that one must understand the truth of God’s revealed character and nature. If one’s understanding (theology) of God’s character and nature does not align with what has been revealed by the Holy Spirit in The Bible, one has not been Born Again and God’s truth is not in him; therefore worship of Him is not possible.
I love having the knowledge that we have all been saved through the atonement of Jesus Christ. As I understand the difference comes when we believe that the portion of exaltation we will receive depends on our obedience to God's commandments that we are willing to accept and live. And for Latter-day Saints, that includes the ordinances that we do or do not accept. But yes, we will all have eternal life because of our Savior.
As an evangelical Christian, it’s more differences than just levels of heaven. LDS and mainstream Christianity disagree on fundamental doctrines of the Nature of God, the mission of Jesus, and who will receive eternal life. Mainstream Christian’s believe more people will go to hell than be saved/get eternal life as revealed in the Bible. That’s why we’re so passionate about explaining the gospel simple and clear
All life is eternal, but without excepting Christ as God and your personal savior, then you will go to hell. Hell was not meant for humans, but that’s where the unbeliever goes. Study your king James, without the lens of a 14-year-old boy, and he will get a better picture of what really happens. God bless, I’m praying for you.
ordinances don't save or add to your blessings or forgiveness. you do them because you want to, not for the 'work' they provide. our works are filthy rags to the lord. We are saved by faith from His grace, not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 2:16)
I like the Saints being called "Restorationists". Accurate. Jesus confirmed that to the survivors in His American visit in 3Nephi 27 (5-10) 9"Verily I say unto you, ...ye shall call whatsoever things ye do call, in my name; therefore if ye call upon the Father, for the church, if it be in my name the Father will hear you; 10 And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it." Are we following His map, so we don't wander off course and get lost? If we follow God's spiritual GPS (Holy Ghost) we will. If we just don't turn off our signal!
The biggest reason it can't work is one i never knew before listening to Hello Saints. Pastor Jeff believes that the Garden of Eden was perfection and we are striving to return to that type of existence. We believe the Garden was only the beginning of the journey on Earth and we are trying to ascend to a whole different and more exalted place. That is such a different focus and mindset, even if we both believe Christ is our Savior.
But isn’t it more about how different the two systems view the nature of Jesus? Don’t those differences show that, in fact, the two groups are following different gods?
@@michaelsterling2650 exactly. One groups thinks Jesus was created, a brother to an angel and limited in His ability to forgive others because they must fill in the gap of what the cross does not provide. The other group knows Jesus is God, an eternal and infinite being that died so that all sins are forgiven by our faith in Him and that none of our works can ever be used towards our justification because of the magnitude of our sins.
Who do you say Jesus is? Assurance of salvation is only afforded to those who know Jesus as Yahweh (Rom 10:9-10). Reference Deut 6:4; Isa 45:23; Phil 2:10-11. That is what it means to be a Christian. You cannot be saved unless Jesus is Yahweh. A finite, created man can not appease the infinite wrath of the infinite God. This message of merging, while I am sure you are sincere, lacks accuracy. I want the LDS to be saved. I want them to know the assurance of salvation that is found in Christ alone. You do not do it by leading them to believe something that simply is not true. If you are LDS, search these Scriptures. Read the New Testament. Jesus has to be God. Jesus has to be Yahweh or we are all still in our sins.
An amazingly wise and intelligent interfaith discussion. Just respect, love and not accusatory. Kind of a rare thing. Very refreshing. Christlike. Wonderful.
The deity of Christ is a fundamental belief in most churches is beyond dispute and non negotiable. I think everyone who has read the bible needs to read the Book of Mormon to know the differences.
I don't need to read the b/M or the q'ran or any other book to know the truth from the Bible that Jesus is God and our faith in Him is where we received our salvation.
@@georgebauerschmidt5289 I was directing that to those who might think Mormons could be right or considering the Book of Mormon is of God which if anyone reads it would know it's not and conflicts with the Bible
Nothing, per D&C 10:67-68. We both work diligently to keep all of His commandments. And we both to come to Christ with all our hearts. Our approaches may differ some but we’re both doing these things. This is very comforting to me because it means there are many, many of us together. We never need feel alone.♥️
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect. God requires perfection to get into heaven. You need the righteousness of God. Have you kept the commandments perfectly?
@@Elizabeth-rk3do of course not, but that’s what repentance and coming to Christ are for: forgiveness and spiritual rebirth so that I am clean before the final judgment bar. I need this forgiveness over and over and over, but I can work at repenting every day.
@duane9166 Repentance won't be enough. Imagine someone guilty of serious crimes standing before a judge and saying, "I know that I broke the law, but I'm sorry, I won't do it again." The judge is still going to sentence him.
What other issues would need to be overcome for Evangelicals and Latter-day Saints to merge?
Christian and Jewish churches all merge together when Jesus Christ comes down again. Or he creates a new church.
The truth must be revealed that's all. It can't be a merger as much as it just will be Christ continuing to reveal the truth
The anthropomorphic God of the LDS faith, and the henotheism of the LDS faith would seem to forever preclude any joining of the two faiths.
@@rodneyjamesmcguireLatter-day Saints are not henotheists. Henotheism allows for the legitimate worship of other gods, whereas Latter-day Saints reserve true worship for "the only true God" (John 17:3). We believe in what I would call "kingship monotheism"-a monotheism that recognizes that no other divine beings (those who partake of the divine nature [2 Pet 1:3-4]) would exist without the Supreme Being-God the Father-ruling over them. They are subject to him and do only those things that God wills them to do.
What other issues would need to be overcome for Evangelicals and Latter-day Saints to merge???
Well... all EV's would have to admit what God the Father really is or... Hell would have to freeze over first. 😇
My favorite example of the coolest interfaith interaction (in my opinion) is the story of the first temple built in Las Vegas. A Baptist church in Las Vegas experienced a fire and burned almost completely down. A nearby LDS congregation spent years helping the Baptists clean up the rubble, fund raise and rebuild their church. When the first temple in Las Vegas was announced there were some zoning issues (I believe) and many people were NOT happy about a temple being built in their neighborhood. Well, the entire Baptist church showed up at the city meetings and basically told everyone “Yes, our Mormon brothers and sisters are getting their temple built!” That’s what true interfaith love and respect looks like, to me! If we are truly followers of Christ then we mourn with those whose church just burnt to the ground and help them rebuild it, and we advocate for other people’s righteous desire to build something that’s of worth to them and their faith. Love others and treat others the way you’d like to be treated. ❤ And yes, one day we will all come together. Christ has told us that we have to be unified to be HIS people, and we unite through love.
What a great story! I didn't know this. ❤
Beautiful story!
Yes; that is a perfect example.
My parents helped with the tabernacle choir touring in Mexico and one of the locations they sang at was a Catholic church and the priest came out and basically said he was so happy to help build a relationship between the two faiths (I summed up what he actually said.) Really cool experience though that my parents got to be a part of.
Wow!. That was amazing. What a cool experience!!! The world would be a much more beautiful place if we could all treat each other that way. This is the the purpose of Christ's message and teachings.
+
In the end, Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is the Christ.
Amen 🙏🏾
And, really, what else matters? Doctrines are developed by man, faith is from God🙏 better to bend the knee on this side of the veil…
I will amend that only with 'as attested by the Holy Ghost'. For though an angel or even Christ himself were to appear before us, without the witness of the Holy Ghost to accompany the experience, we will not see or retain its reality..
...what is the Christ? what is the "anointed one"?
@@BGCflyer He who suffered and was crucified for all mankind, that by him, and through him all mankind will be resurrected, and that by adhering to the Gospel, we may be redeemed and receive glory, even as Christ recieved glory from Father.
There will never be a merger, but there can be civil discourse and respect.
Hopefully entering into the realm of cooperation and unified action.
What do you suppose the Millennium is for?
Well, correct in a way. 39,999 will just cease to exist. They wont merge, they either join His Kingdom or wander off to the other side to lessor degrees of glory
@@calblue95482 39 999 denominations? That's a false claim. The real answer is that there is much less th-cam.com/video/7Vw1KFwETbo/w-d-xo.html
The Savior prayed that his apostles to be one as you and I are one. In other words in full unity.not conflict
Not a merger in terms of theology, but perhaps in partnership against the obvious evils that we all face.
Soooooo True!
Ironically, they seem to be merged in committing the evils, in other words, they commit to uniting in opposing the fruits of the spirit, and the top commands of Christ.
I no longer worry whether people call me a Christian. I call myself a “follower of Christ”. Can’t tell me I’m not. And I have to choose each day to be a follower of Christ, regardless of what faith I was baptized into. Keep being a light for Him - both of you!
Respect
I stop using that word years ago. I am just a child of God.
Christian literally means follower of Christ
Dear Jeff from Hello Saints. You started your channel 4 months before I met the missionaries. You helped guide me through my 'conversion . I was trusted for a year about being baptized because I was afraid of all the denominations actually not having the "full gospel" as the many churches I hop through, I can see that most of the congregations are not actually receiving the blessings that pastor promises. And its because most churches I have seen there is zero accountability and personal council.
Everytime you read the book of Mormon it paced up with my reading. You were a study partner for me. And July 1st I will start my mission. I will be a missionary in reno nevada speaking Spanish. I get to go the Mexico mtc, I have been told there are way to many wild parrots that fly around
What a cool story. You will have a great perspective on a mission because of your conversion. Thanks for sharing.
That is awesome, and welcome to the fold. I hope you’ve recognized Gods hand as he’s guided you. Thanks for sharing!
Jeff was an on-ramp for you. Awesome 🙏💟 share this with David Alexander 😅
Amazing story!
Yes let David know this!!!@@zionmama150
I come from a family of cousins of many different Christian faiths(those who worship and follow Jesus Christ). We love, respect and enjoy our relationships with each other. We pray with and for each other. I'm so grateful. Pastor Jeff, I sure appreciate you and your respect and perspective.
About temples, we go there to learn, to worship Christ, to commitment to keeping God's commandments, to love and serve everyone. Also to connect families together forever.
Very well said, and I have the same situation in my family....I can't ever express my love for my Evangelical Christian in laws, they are the greatest example of what Christianty is to me. I love them as I love anyone on this earth and I know they are my brother and sister's in the gospel of Jesus Christ and I will see them in Heaven, they are Heavenly Fathers choice servents on this earth.
@susiesmith2052 Masonic ceremonies teach to love others? So why have the Lds constantly fight against the rights of women, LGBTQ+ community and ethnic minorities? Why did its leaders command and commit abuse of women and children? Families are already connected in heaven without the abusive behaviour of the Mormon church.
Thanks Pastor Jeff and Kurt. I was raised Methodist! So neither evangelical or LDS. I'm LDS now! Loved the conversation!
My point exactly!!!
Do you have somewhere I can hear your conversion story? That’d be complete awesomeness.
While we can't merge, I think we should be able to mutually support issues of morals and values as well as freedom of religion & freedom of speech.
Agreed as a lds memeber I think it would be great if we could work with other churches even if we have diffrent beliefs
@@TheIceMan44 as a born-again Christian, that would be fine assuming we work towards helping those that need our physical support. However, we would have to agree that teaching those that need spiritual support, then we will begin to fall apart.
Evangelicals and lds are both notorious for fighting AGAINST freedom of religion…
As a Latter-Day Saint, it hurts a little when those not of our faith say that we are not Christians. It's not because we want a "seat at the lunch table" with mainstream Christianity. It's because we actually love Jesus Christ more than anything else. Christ is at the center of ALL we do in the church. Jesus Christ is in the name of the church. The Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ. We pray in the name of Jesus Christ. I can go on and on. Everything we "do" in the church points to Jesus Christ and helps people develop a close and lasting relationship with Him.
Jesus Christ is God!
Book of Mormon Title page:
And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting Himself unto all nations.
Mosiah 5:44 (7:27 LDS)
And because he said unto them, that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning;
Mosiah 8:13 (13:34 LDS)
Have they not said that God himself should come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth?
3 Nephi 5:14 RLDS (11:14 LDS)
And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto them, saying, Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands, and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.
3 Nephi 9:19 RLDS (19:18 LDS)
And behold they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God.
Joseph Smith said . . .
(Regarding Joseph Smith’s alleged first vision where celestial personages appeared to him) . . . “My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right - and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . .” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 5-6).
“What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, p. 270).
(In questions directed to Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism . . . ).
First-“Do you believe the Bible?”
If we do, we are the only people under heaven that do, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do.”
Third-“Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?”
Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness.” (Teachings, page 119).
Brigham Young said. . .
“But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong,” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, 1855, p. 171).
John Taylor said . . .
“We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsens . . . Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century,” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, 1858, p. 167).
The son of GOD, still a GOD himself, as is the Holy Ghost. Three entities, one in purpose.@@joesimpson9230
@@rodbrannon1647 There is only one God. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost is one God. LDS leaders teach contrary to the Book of Mormon and the Bible.
Alma 8 79-82, 104 RLDS (11:26-29 LDS)
And Zeezrom saith unto him: "Thou sayest there is a true and a living God?"
And Amulek saith: "Yea, there is a true and a living God."
Now Zeezrom saith: "Is there more than one God?"
And he answered: "No."
And shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son and God the Father and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, To be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.
2 Nephi 13:32 (31:21 LDS)
And now behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, And the only and true doctrine of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God without end. Amen.
Mormon 3:29
And He hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, Whereby he that is found guiltless before Him at the judgment day hath it given unto them to dwell in the presence of God in His kingdom, To sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above unto the Father and unto the Son and unto the Holy Ghost, which is one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.
D&C LDS 20:28, RLDS 17:5h
Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.
Book of Mormon - Testimony of the Three Witnesses
And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Martin Harris.
Luke 10:23 Inspired Version (Joseph Smith Translation)
All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it.
Mosiah 8:28-32 RLDS (15:1-5 LDS)
And now Abinadi saith unto them: "I would that ye should understand that God Himself shall come down among the children of men and shall redeem His people; And because He dwelleth in flesh, He shall be called the Son of God; And having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son - The Father, because He was conceived by the power of God, and the Son, because of the flesh, thus becoming the Father and Son, And They are one God, yea, the Very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth - And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation and yieldeth not to the temptation, But suffereth Himself to be mocked and scourged and cast out and disowned by His people.
@@joesimpson9230
So you misunderstand? Maybe 🤔.
They are separate beings.
One in purpose.
Long B4 I joined the LDS Church, they appeared to me. I don't need other accounts when I have seen for, myself. If I had such an encounter, as a little child, I'm sure many others have. I am a nothing individual, unimportant in my mind. You can find out for yourself, and should, if you care to know. Knowledge I have gained comes through to me personally. Reading scriptures is a good way to open the windows of Heaven. At times I've read, but received different information than was written on the page. I was given knowledge of what Heaven wanted me to receive, not necessarily what I was looking for. It isn't about who is right or wrong. Truth, doesn't change because we experience or understand differently.
I've always found it interesting that everyone wants to defend themselves as Christian, when in reality, when everything is said and done, there is one individual who will make that judgement. We are all out here judging each other on who is 'Christian' when in reality we need to be asking ourselves that question, "Would Christ consider me Christian?"
Love this so much! Live so he says well done thou good and faithful servant! Not running up and saying Lord Lord! And him saying I know you not!
Which "Christ" ? The LDS brother of Lucifer one?
I'm talking about the one who exemplifies sacrifice for humanity, the one who loves more than himself, the one who seeks to do good. That Christ is found in the literature of all the faiths of those speaking in this video, and those aspects are what matters most. And if one is looking beyond that, we truly are looking beyond the mark as what matters most. Everything else is secondary to his goodness and grace. @@dnzswithwombats
@@jaredhutchinson4629 Are you LDS, if you don't mind me asking? Either way., what you do there in what you wrote is put platitudes above Jesus and above God as some standard God conforms to. God is the standard.
@@dnzswithwombatsI think we are making this more complicated. At least more complicated than what I find in the scriptures and I assume what Christ wanted it to be for us. All I know is when it comes to being Christian, Christ said: "Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
I really appreciate the way you model how to talk with people you don't necessarily agree with.
I tend to think that the societal policies the last few decades of "dont talk about religion or politics!" has let to a society that no longer has the skills to respectfully do either. It is always so refreshing to see positive behavior modeled! Thank you!
Amen! It would be even better if @hellosaints were willing to accept that we’re NOT a cult and actually admit that we’re Christian too though it would probably kill him to do so. 😉 We love you Jeff! Eventually you’ll learn…
When evangelicals tell me that I am not a Christian, they are telling me I don’t love and follow and believe in Jesus Christ. Can they see how insulting that is? Can they imagine how they would feel if I were to tell them that they aren’t Christians?
@@brendachild8685 You just restated the exact problem @ackhak expressed.
@@brendachild8685 Thanks for proving my point
@@ackhakJoseph Smith said that all the creeds of Christianity were an abomination. Christians are deceived by Satan, anti Christ, have the spirit of the devil in them and are all wrong.
The issue is that the Jesus that you follow and the Jesus that Christians follow are fundamentally different things. The law of non contradiction tells us that something cannot be and not be at the same time. So, the Jesus that Christian’s follow cannot be the Jesus that you follow. The two fundamentally different Jesuses cannot both be the actual Jesus. You can be right or I can be right, but we cannot both be right about Jesus.
I would say that a Christian wouldn’t care if you told them they weren’t a Christian because you are a non Christian telling them that.
@@michaelsterling2650 Although LDS may teach a different Jesus, the Jesus Christ of the Book of Mormon is the same as the Jesus Christ of the Bible.
Book of Mormon Title page:
And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting Himself unto all nations.
Mosiah 5:44 (7:27 LDS)
And because he said unto them, that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning;
Mosiah 8:13 (13:34 LDS)
Have they not said that God himself should come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth?
3 Nephi 4:42-44 RLDS (9 LDS)
Yea, verily I say unto you, If ye will come unto me, ye shall have eternal life. Behold, mine arm of mercy is extended towards you, and whosoever will come, him will I receive; and blessed are those who come unto me. Behold I am Jesus Christ, the son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
2 Nephi 11 RLDS (2 Nephi 25 LDS)
"Yea, behold, I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven, save it be this Jesus Christ of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved."
Great conversation and an admirable friendship. As a Latter-day Saint living in the Midwest, I am so thankful for my friends of other faiths.
For me: It hard to hear that someone thinks I am not a Christian because I love and follow Christ. He is my Savior. I am redeemed through Him. I haven’t given up on the word Christianity in my life. But I also learning to not be bothered at all when someone disagrees with how I see myself and my religion. People disagree. Some are right and some are wrong. It’s between me and God to find His ways.
I also don’t like to hear that others consider us a cult because that is a negative term. There is nothing negative about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I am learning that it is His bride. I love it and accept it and all of us as we make our way through life doing our best. I adore our Church and it really stinks to have someone talk down or negatively towards something I love and admire. The Church is lead by a living prophet and full of the best people on earth that I have ever met. It just feels rude to speak down towards our Church.
It is good to hear that a class on Mormonism in an Evangelical Church isn’t a bash because growing up I always heard that it was. For six months in math class every single day the boy that sat in front of me came and told me all sorts of ridiculous lies about myself and my family and my church, that his father was teaching from the pulpit on a weekly basis in a Mormonism class. He pulled my hair looking for my horns, he said vile things about my parents, and had a spirit of the devil about him as he spoke. For this reason I only speak in kindness about other churches. It’s hard as a child to attend your extended family’s children’s Sunday School class and hear your religion bashed. It is awful. I never let other churches be spoken down about at church in my presence.
12:15 - 13:01 "One of the misperceptions I've been able to jettison as a result of our friendship is this line that I'd been fed that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints don't know their scriptures, they don't read the Bible, they don't think about what they believe, they are told not to think about what they believe. Most of the Latter-Day Saints, though, that I've engaged (which is a lot of Latter-Day Saints) are very well informed about their scriptures, about the Bible, about why they believe different things. You guys have very strong convictions and rallying points of truth, and though it is different, I've grown to respect how informed Latter-Day Saints are about their own faith." -- Pastor Jeff
Yes! This! Thank you!
Weather or not we ever come to a complete agreement on how the scriptures should be interpreted, we still need each other in the fight against our true enemies who want to see the world controlled by unrighteous influences.
1 Nephi 3:219-225 RLDS (1 Nephi 14: 9-10 LDS)
And it came to pass that he saith unto me: "Look and behold that great and abominable church which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil." And he saith unto me: "Behold, there are save it be two churches - The one is the church of the Lamb of God, And the other is the church of the devil; Wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations, And she is the whore of all the earth." And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth; And she sat upon many waters; And she had dominion over all the earth among all nations, kindreds, tongues and people.
The abominable church consists of all organizations, both known and secret, across the globe, that serve Satan's aims. We can clearly see it has infiltrated highest levels of government, industry, and education in many lands. To be clear, it does not consist of one "church" or denomination as we know them today.
@@joesimpson9230 , That Scripture means that the earth is being ran by wicked forces and the only way to escape their influences is by coming to Jesus.
@@explorerofmind True. And to come to Christ's true church...which is NOT just some 501c3 sect or denomination (i.e. LDS).
D&C 10:67-68 LDS (D&C 3 RLDS)
Behold, this is my doctrine: Whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church; whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me but is against me; therefore, he is not of my church.
@@joesimpson9230, To come unto Christ includes following him, his teachings, and keeping his sayings.
I’m a Christian and I love the Mormon ❤
@@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr
Right? Imagine a doctrine that says certain people are condemned to hell prior to birth, and then everyone that doesn’t make a nonsensical confession is condemned to hell. Your god doesn’t seem like a nice guy or have a very nice doctrine.
@@Kapayapaanman yall still talking about the Latter-Day Saints right? I don't know where you heard that but that's not any doctrine I know of.
@@Kapayapaanman your god will pretend you can, but reserves the right to change its mind at any time.
@@daydeer9912 I’m speaking to evangelical ideas
.....ooooohhh they're not going to like it when you call them Mormon!!!
YES! At the second coming of Christ all believers of any denomination will be of one fold with Jesus as their Lord!
Which "Jesus" ?
Only if they believe in the true biblical Jesus, Mormonism is not biblical. Different Jesus, different gosple.
@@hollayevladimiroff131 Different god too.
@@hollayevladimiroff131Thank you!
@@dnzswithwombats not the trinity jesus the bibical jesus
I’m a 66 year old lifelong multi-generation LDS member. Concerning this faith vs. works non-controversy, I have never at any time been taught or misunderstood that there is *anything* I can do to earn admission to heaven, or that any “works” are sufficient to be worthy, in the sense of “earning” Christ’s grace, or forgiveness of sin. In fact, such thinking seems to me to be an abomination, suggesting someone should approach Christ in some form of negotiation. This is offensive and sinful thinking. Neal A. Maxwell expressed it best, “Any assessment of where we stand in relation to Christ tells us we do not stand at all. We kneel.”
With the exception of my college years at BYU, I have lived my entire life in Texas, outside the context of my faith being the prevalent religious culture. In other words, almost all my friends and co-workers are non-LDS, almost any denomination you can name.
The faith vs. works discussion always devolves into a chicken-and-egg conjecture about which comes first. The faith side of the discussion always centers on a personal transformation of being “saved” and transformed from a worldly, sin-seeking person into someone who manifests better conduct because of their newfound relationship with Christ. LDS teaching, which is sometimes derided as “works” emphasizes approaching Christ as a self-aware sinner, broken in heart and contrite in spirit, pleading for forgiveness and redemption.
We all fall short, and make no mistake, nothing in LDS doctrine contradicts. When Latter-day Saints quote the Book of Mormon, “It is by faith ye are saved after all ye can do,” this is by no means - in no form - an expression that supposes “works” are sufficient in any way. It simply means that true followers of Christ have fully, without reservation, committed themselves to following the Master, including keeping his commandments, imperfect though we all are. LDS people are taught by our leaders to strive to continually learn and repent, meaning to change for the better by forsaking bad behaviors and bad thoughts. In this way, through learning and growth, we hold to the path of become perfected in Christ.
To a Latter-day Saint, knowing we all fall short, we acknowledge that the Grace of Christ is foundation of our faith, the Rock. There is no other path, no other way. No one who has ever lived or who will ever live compares to Christ. He is alpha and omega. No Latter-day Saint has ever been taught anything contrary to this.
The Bible and the Book of Mormon agree regarding faith and works.
A lot of the sequel stuff that would be hard for Evangelicals to accept are from teachings that were adopted by the LDS sect after Joseph Smith were murdered. Things that are both contrary to the doctrines of the Bible and the doctrines of the Book of Mormon. Things such as:
1.God once being a man (other than as manifested in flesh as Jesus Christ)
2. Men becoming Gods
3. A Heavenly Mother
4. God as three beings
5. Penal Oath temple rituals (Joseph Smith and BoM warn against them)
6. Temple recommends/requirements for the kingdom
7. Polygamy (Joseph Smith was not a polygamist, Brigham Young was)
8. Emphasis on expensive temples while there are poor among us.
9. Emphasis on following a false prophet / man, should only follow Jesus Christ
10. Definition of God's true church. (D&C 10:67-68)
11: “Covenant Path” rather than Doctrine of Christ 3 Nephi 5:32 RLDS (3 Nephi 11 LDS)
12. secret societies (Skull & Bones, Freemasonry)
Also the Angel Gabriel being Noah. Not once in the Bible did an Angel become a human for that amount of time. Just messengers for a short period. Humans and angels are separate created beings
@@joesimpson9230 you wrote, "Bible and the Book of Mormon agree regarding faith and works"
NO. Not at all. Read Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 10:9, John 3:16, Galatians 2:16, Romans 5:1, Romans 4:4-5 and Titus 3:4-5 to see just how wrong that statement really is.
Incidentally, Joseph Smith WAS a polygamist. History reveals that so well.
@@georgebauerschmidt5289 Read these scriptures and see how the Book of Mormon does agree with the Bible on grace:
2 Nephi 11 RLDS (2 Nephi 25 LDS)
"Yea, behold, I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven, save it be this Jesus Christ of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved."
2 Nephi 7:42 RLDS
And remember after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.
Mosiah 1:108 (3:12 LDS)
But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God; for salvation cometh to none such, except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Mosiah 1:116-118 (3:17-18)
And moreover, I say unto you, that there shall be no other name given, nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent. For behold, he judgeth, and his judgment is just, and the infant perisheth not, that dieth in his infancy; But men drink damnation to their own souls, except they humble themselves, and become as little children, and believe that salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent:
2 Nephi 1:69 RLDS
And by the law, no flesh is justified, or, by the law, men are cut off.
2 Nephi 13:28 RLDS
Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for ye have not come thus far, save it were by the word of Christ, with unshaken faith in him, relying wholly upon the merits of him who is mighty to save;
Mni 6:5 And their names were taken, that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word of God, to keep them in the right way, to keep them continually watchful unto prayer, relying alone upon the merits of Christ, who was the author and the finisher of their faith.
1 Nephi 3:193
And shall make known to all kindreds, tongues and people, that the Lamb of God is the son of the Eternal Father, and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto him or they can not be saved;
1N 5:135 And the labor which they had to perform was to look! and because of the simpleness of the way, or the easiness of it, there were many who perished.
Mosiah 1:122 RLDS
And behold, when that time cometh, none shall be found blameless before God, except it be little children, only through repentance and faith on the name of the Lord God Omnipotent;
@@georgebauerschmidt5289 True history, including court decision, confirms that Joseph Smith did not practice polygamy. It is only the corrupted, edited and false version of history from Brigham Young and his LDS sect that pretends otherwise.
“One of the last things which Brigham Young had done before leaving Iowa, was to appear in the pulpit dressed to personate the worshiped and lamented prophet Smith, and confer the prophetic succession, with all its dignities, emoluments, and authorities, upon "President Brigham Young"! The people accepted the pious fraud with the maddest enthusiasm, and Brigham's power was sealed and secured for all time. Within five years after- ward he openly added polygamy to the tenets of the church by authority of a "revelation" which he pretended had been received nine years before by Joseph Smith, albeit Joseph is amply on record as denouncing polygamy to the day of his death.” Mark Twain (Roughing it, pgs. 307)
Nope! We can merge in service to each other, but not in doctrines!
Agreed. There will always be a disconnect between the two because they offer polar opposites of truth.
Jesus Christ died for our Sins according to the scriptures and that he was Buried and that he Rose Again the third day praise God praying for everyone everyday God bless you all......
Fr we love yall
14:54 - the problem isn't acknowledging that we are different; the problem is that Evangelicals claiming they are Christian and Latter-day Saints are not. Evangelicals and Latter-day Saints are both Christian--Evangelicals do not get to own and gate-keep that identity. Their creeds to not create the boundaries of Christendom.
Latter-day Saints are not Evangelicals, but Latter-day Saints are certainly Christians. Any attempt to avoid this acknowledgement or gate-keep Christianity is offensive and childish.
You rejected identity in this community when you called all churches abominable. Live with it.
I always liked the duck analogy. Its like all "other Christian denominations" wont recognize us as a duck because we have different color feathers, even though we are a duck! However clearly, this is one of the instances where the Lord says, "blinded by the craftiness of men" and the adversary. And yet, they try to pin that on us!!
@@calblue95482 The table analogy they used bothered me. We don't want to sit at their table because it isn't their table. It is Jesus' table. It bothers me when they try to act like the gate-keepers when they don't have that authority.
If you had a friend that you knew really well and someone came up to you and said He’s my friend too and then you get to talking about this friend that you have in common and it doesn’t sound like the same person at all would it be fair to assume that you’re are not talking about the same person? Would I get mad at that person for saying I don’t think your friends with the guy I’m talking about.
@@annvanwest9822 that’s not what is happening here. We are talking about the same guy; we just know more stuff about him. You’re like, He never visited the Americas, and we are saying, yes He did; ask Him about it!
It is offensive for you to claim to know the real Jesus and then say we know a false Jesus. It comes from recycled anti-Mormon tropes among evangelicals and is a way to scare evangelicals from taking the restored truth seriously. Any free thinking well informed evang will see past that framework given to you by your pastor. Plus it is just childish to hold someone’s Christianity hostage.
I have thought a lot about the end goal in society between the two groups. We may see it differently, but we want the same things. Good fathers, good mothers, raising good children in the glorious light of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The outcomes have some profound similarities.
I have to say, I'm left feeling a bit angry after this episode. Kurt is so friendly and gracious and willing to grant that Evangelicals are Christian and a good alternative for ex-Mormons. Pastor Jeff, as friendly as he comes across, is still unwilling to grant that LDS are Christian, that involvement in Latter-day Saint Christianity is a good alternative to atheism, or that Latter-day Saints are not a cult.
I don't expect that Evengelicals concede on "deal breakers", but to have any true mutual respect, Jeff would need to let down his pride and grant Latter-day Saints their Christianity. Maintaining this gate-keeping posture is a deal breaker for me--I can't engage with people like that.
@HelloSaints - talk me down.
As a non denomination Christian, I have not considered LDS to be Christian due to the difference of how he's viewed. Christians do not believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers as procreated sons of Elohim. Rather, traditional Christians interpret the Bible to proclaim Jesus as King of kings and Lord of lords manifested as the Son form of a triune God. Jesus is not just viewed as savior in traditional Christianity, He is Lord. That's why Pastor Jeff won't refer to the LDS as Christian versus other denominations. It's a major theological difference
@@vanishingsoon Your view of Mormonism seems to be closer to the anti-Mormon cartoon from the 80s called the Godmakers than to actual Mormonism.
Title page of the Book of Mormon: “And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations.”
Alma 11:34: “…and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God.”
3 Nephi 11:27: “verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.”
Doctrine & Covenants 38:1-3: “1 Thus saith the Lord your God, even Jesus Christ, the Great I Am, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the same which looked upon the wide expanse of eternity, and all the seraphic hosts of heaven, before the world was made;
2 The same which knoweth all things, for all things are present before mine eyes;
3 I am the same which spake, and the world was made, and all things came by me.”
Mosiah 3: “5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.
6 And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.
7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.
8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.
9 And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.
10 And he shall rise the third day from the dead; and behold, he standeth to judge the world; and behold, all these things are done that a righteous judgment might come upon the children of men.
11 For behold, and also his blood atoneth for the sins of those who have fallen by the transgression of Adam, who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them, or who have ignorantly sinned.”
Alma 42:15 “15 And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself atoneth for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of mercy, to appease the demands of justice, that God might be a perfect, just God, and a merciful God also.”
Mosiah 15:1-4 “1 And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people.
2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son-
3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son-
4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.”
Never heard of it. My viewpoint of LDS just comes from conversations with LDS friends after living in Utah for nearly 20 years. I can only go off of what I'm told by it's members
@@vanishingsoon You're quoting it almost verbatim, referring to Jesus and Satan being brothers, for example.
@@TheMightyJor truth be told, I had never heard of the term Godmakers. I have seen some cartoons that were labelled under a Mormon name. Nevertheless, I've had discussions about these topics with local Utah LDS and they would not deny these points. Therefore, as I said, I can only go off what your congregation members tell me. I even asked these questions as I toured the Church History museum in Salt Lake and had the same results. There's no condemnation here. Some of my greatest friends are LDS and we have these discussions all the time
I don’t know, there are a lot of different beliefs that are non negotiable for both churches
LDS does not believe in the Trinity
(35:20) Jeff, can you clarify when you say "not many but some evangelicals" would say that the LDS church is a "false religion" please? Because I know of no evangelical Christian pastor, or individual Christian I have come across within my own family, the different churches I have ever attended my entire life (48 years young), the Christian school I went to, who does not believe Mormonism is a false religion. When you said that only "some" evangelical Christians believe Mormonism is a false religion, I think you are very wrong in your assessment.
Agreed, what an absurd statement. The entirety of Christendom recognizes mormonism as a false religion.
Most evangelicals think the BOM is false.
Your complaint is akin to an Muslim asking why Christians don’t believe in the Quran 😂
Much better format than previous videos. I appreciated this far better, it seemed more like you were talking on even ground rather than proselyting to the person you are talking with/at/ and vice versa (let this be a neutral territory of mutual expression). If you stick to this format, you will assuage fears of your intent far better. I want to coexist with Evangelicals, I genuinely having nothing against them, I basically was one for a time. I want us to work together to better help the rest of mankind. The amount of humanitarian effort we could provide from an interfaith perspective would be amazing.
Just remember, you are always welcome at our lunch table ;)
Perhaps we can agree on the concept of being a 'Restorationist' denomination of Christianity. Nomenclature of that nature might be more easily accepted on both fronts. It still allows Reformationists and Protestants to 'other' us all they want, while still being acknowledged as at least the weirdo cousins to Christianity. . .
It would help relations between all religious groups if they would all stop proselytizing. That includes going door-to-door.
@@kevins4254 We actually would rather not go door to door sometimes that is the only option. If we could come together more that would be ideal.
@@kevins4254And what of Christ's command to His apostles saying ,"Go ye forth unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, teaching them and baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."?
Totally agree. I felt this was much better than many of the other videos.
@@solomoncasilen7362with the technology we have nowadays I’m sure there are other ways.
Joseph Smith hated the Christian and Catholic Church. I'm not sure why the LDS church is so eager to want to be called Christian. It has me scratching my head.
😂😂😂😂 nobody cares to be called Christian because the saints are more Christian than those claiming to be Christians. We are saints as in the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day saints and if you read the Bible they only talk about saints not Christians.
@@utimakasini7176 What do you have against taking on the name of Christ and being called a Christian? They didn't in the Book of Mormon.
Alma 46:15-16 Yea, all those who were the true believers in Christ, took upon them, gladly, the name of Christ, or Christians, as they were called, because of their belief in Christ, who should come; and therefore, at this time, Moroni prayed that the cause of the Christians, and the freedom of the land might be favored.
@@joesimpson9230 you're just like the adversary, making up accusations.
@@utimakasini7176 I shared a scripture from the Book of Mormon where they were gladly called Christians. Do you reject that scripture?
@@utimakasini7176 Joseph Smith said . . .
(Regarding Joseph Smith’s alleged first vision where celestial personages appeared to him) . . . “My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right - and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . .” (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 5-6).
“What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, p. 270).
(In questions directed to Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism . . . ).
First-“Do you believe the Bible?”
If we do, we are the only people under heaven that do, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do.”
Third-“Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?”
Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness.” (Teachings, page 119).
Dear Jeff, I love how you think and how you articulate your thought processes. You and Joy would make such awesome members of our community!!! You would bring a very needed balance and moderation to our efforts. I love the sweet spirit of love and acceptance that I feel from most evangelicals. As a Latter Day Saint I try to emit that kind of love to others regardless of their faith tradition because Jesus Christ loves all of us and He wants us to love one another. I am amazed at how open you are about our doctrine even though you can't subscribe to it. But what puzzles me is your faith tradition's inability to accept continuing revelation, modern prophets and additional scriptures. I joined the church when I was 16. I was raised Methodist but my parents weren't church goers so we didn't have conversations about God, ever, til I wanted to become a member of the LDS faith. Then all hell broke loose in our family. Anyway...apart from the Spirit I felt, what I found so logical and natural about the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught in the LDS tradition is the doctrine of ongoing revelation. It makes so much sense to me that God would and does continue to speak to His children today just like He did in the past and that provides for the possibility and necessity of modern revelation, modern prophets, and additional scriptures today and in the future. God is not mute. He loves His children today as much as He loved them when He called Moses to lead the children of Israel. He is the same, yesterday, today, and forever. He is unchanging. So He will continue to communicate with us today. It just makes so much sense to me and I just don't understand why you guys can't see that. Apart from that, I can see our two faith communities merging. I could happily link arms with my evangelical friends in the love and spirit of the Lord. For we love the same God and our God is my best friend and He loves you, so I love you! Be blessed, Jeff.
I was charismatic and we believe that God still speaks. I now attend the assemblies of God Church
The Bible is the reason. Evangelicals must pin everything on it because it provides a comfortable static base. It is a standard which allows them to claim authority rather than the priesthood as given in the early church.
if everyone just focused on ONE thing only, and that is the knowledge of Jesus death, burial and resurrection and put our faith and trust in Him as our God and Savior, then we can set aside any other differences and ideas. That core should be the one thing that keeps us all together.
I get frustrated and upset (though less so the older I get) when people tell me I’m not Christian. I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior. I love Him. I’m trying to follow Him. I repent in His name when I fall short. I don’t think it’s complicated. People who believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior are Christian. Period. The other differences in scriptural interpretation are significant to distinguish between denominations but NOT who’s Christian and who’s not. I absolutely consider Evangelicals, Methodists, Catholics, Baptists, Amish, Seventh Day Adventists, and Jehovah’s Witnesses and ALL the others who believe in Christ as their Savior Christian. Even though all of those denominations have pretty significant differences of opinion on interpretation of scripture.
I also have a problem with it, because people who don’t know much about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (or worse, who only know us by the “Mormon” nickname) hear, “They’re not Christian.” And then they might not realize that we do believe in Christ. There are a LOT of people who believe we worship Mormon or Joseph Smith and have no idea we believe in Jesus Christ and worship Him. Because others outside our faith get so hung up on our belief in living prophets, people hear more about Joseph Smith and Mormon in connection to the church than Jesus. But that’s only something people outside our faith could be confused about. Every member of the church understands that Jesus is our Savior and The One we’re following. He is the head of this church. The prophets are just His servants on earth to keep the doctrine pure, warn us of dangers unique to our time, and lead God’s work on the earth.
Saying we worship Joseph Smith or Mormon or getting hung up on our belief in them as prophets is like saying any Christian worships Peter, James, John, Moses, Noah, or Isaiah. Joseph Smith and Mormon were prophets, just like those men. We do not worship them, but we do regard their teachings as coming from God and having authority from God, just as we do the words of Peter, James, John, Isaiah, Moses and Noah. If you believe in ancient prophets, it really shouldn’t be that much of a stretch to understand our regard for Joseph Smith or any other modern prophet or any of the ancient prophets of the Book of Mormon. One can think they’re NOT true prophets of God, but it should be easy to understand how we regard them and not confuse it for worship.
We worship Christ. We are Christian.
Thank you for writing this Becci. I’ve spent the past defending Mormons because I did not actually look into what the LDS church teaches. I have read the book of Mormon, the doctrines and covenants, pearl of great price, I’ve also studied Joseph Smith, translation and rewriting of the Bible, the seer.
If you change, who Jesus really was then, it doesn’t matter if you worship him or not.
Fundamentally as Christians we are believe in core doctrine, there is only one. God, who manifested in the flesh, died for the sins of the world.
You do have to understand that I am not trying to be mean, I love you, and I don’t know you.
Orthodox Christianity is not works based. It’s not polytheism.
read your own Bible and do your own homework. Walk away from organized religion. I stopped following denominations once I really understood Christianity. True Christianity is not a religion. It’s the way.
If you understand the separation of sheep and goat’s judgment of the Bible, you will understand why you can call yourself a Christian and then Christ will say I knew you’re not.
Please! Come home.
@@dfoster4234 The Book of Mormon is true, and another witness of the same gospel of Jesus Christ as the Bible. Joseph Smith was a true prophet who worshipped Jesus Christ. The church was infiltrated by wicked men. When Joseph Smith was murdered, Brigham Young usurped control of the church and led some of the saints to SLC, Utah (many refused to follow him). Brigham Young introduced many false doctrines into that denomination including polygamy, men becoming Gods, Adam God, blood atonement of men, penal oath temple rituals, a Heavenly Mother, Lucifer being Jesus' brother, incorrect definition of Christ’s church, etc. None of that is in the Book of Mormon or teachings of Joseph Smith, but Brigham Young and the wicked leaders under and after him have pretended that it came from Joseph Smith in order to gain acceptance for their own evil and lustful desires. The LDS church of today is Brigham Young's denomination and is apostate from the teachings of the church under Joseph Smith.
Mosiah 5:44 (7:27 LDS)
And because he said unto them, that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning;
Mosiah 8:13 (13:34 LDS)
Have they not said that God himself should come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth?
Alma 8 79-82, 104 RLDS (11:26-29 LDS)
And Zeezrom saith unto him: "Thou sayest there is a true and a living God?"
And Amulek saith: "Yea, there is a true and a living God."
Now Zeezrom saith: "Is there more than one God?"
And he answered: "No."
And shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son and God the Father and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, To be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.
2 Nephi 11 RLDS (2 Nephi 25 LDS)
"Yea, behold, I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven, save it be this Jesus Christ of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved."
@@dfoster4234 I have read the Bible many, many times, and I will continue to read it. I love the Bible. I don’t see anything in it that contradicts the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Further, I have tried to understand the Trinity. Even before responding, I Googled again so as not to misrepresent it, but it is SO confusing and seems more a stretch to say Jesus was referring to Himself as The Father (multiple times) than to just accept that there is God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ (a separate being) and the Holy Spirit (a third being). The Bible makes SO much more sense to me through a Godhead lens than a Trinitarian one.
It’s interesting to me that you (and so many other Christians) reduce identity as “Christian” to belief in this specific definition of Christ’s relationship to The Father. If in the Second Coming, Christ tells me He really is The Father as well as The Son and there is no other being who’s The Father, that all this time I’ve been praying to Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus, it was really just Jesus listening and there is no second Heavenly Father being, you think He’ll reject me because of that? Even though all this time I’ve been praying in the name of Jesus Christ, reading the Bible (yes, and other scriptures) and trying to follow the example He set during His mortal life as recorded in the New Testament? Personally, I feel much more strongly (even though we believe certain ordinances performed with legitimate authority are important) that all who believe in Christ and are trying to follow Him will be counted His in the Second Coming. I personally feel that scripture refers to those who say they’re Christian but don’t follow the gospel path or keep the commandments, or in other words, people who profess belief but actually are hypocrites. I don’t feel that applies to any particular denomination. But it could include people who attend any church, including the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The works hang-up is also one I don’t understand. Even after listening to Pastor Jeff for at least four months now, I still don’t really get this obsession with nitpicking works vs Grace. Christ told people to follow Him. He taught the commandments and a higher law, a code of conduct that would mark His followers as His. “If you love me, keep my commandments.” “Go and sin no more.” That’s literally all we’re trying to do. But of course, no person will be able to follow Christ perfectly. Even after our conversion and baptism, we’ll continue to fall short of His perfection. So we repent and try again to “sin no more”. And repent again. And again. And again… But every time, we don’t just sit down there in our sin and say, “Oh well. We’re imperfect creatures. It’s not possible for us to follow Christ. And it doesn’t matter what we do anyway, because Christ atoned for our sins.” I don’t believe that’s what you’re saying or what Pastor Jeff means either. So I’m still so confused about this “nuance” he tries to explain about what it is that we’re supposedly getting wrong about Grace. Or you including that in your comment.
Anyway, I appreciate your concern for my eternal welfare and your love for Christ. I absolutely consider myself Christian, and I’m comfortable with leaving my judgement up to Him.
@@joesimpson9230 Joseph Smith absolutely taught that the Father and the Son were two separate beings. That was one of his key takeaways from the First Vision. Trying to present these scriptures as evidence that he believed otherwise is either confusion or disingenuous.
@@BecciBuck Try looking at his 1832 First Vision account...the only one actually written by Joseph Smith. In it you will read that he saw Jesus Christ. That account was torn from its journal and hid in the safe of Joseph Fielding Smith for decades while they taught plurality of Gods...and only returned after word of it got out.
I’m happily an evangelical convert to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I bristle when I hear the Church referred to as a cult. I’ve lost evangelical friends because of their view of the Church. I’m glad that evangelicals are (some at least) becoming more open to dialogue and look for the heart of the matter in Saints-Jesus is the heart!
I believe some view the requirement to pay money and interview in order to qualify for going to fine sanctuaries to perform secret rituals in special garments to obtain promises of exaltation as cultish. Also direction to follow a man called the living prophet can be viewed as cultish. I understand from others that leaving can be quite a process, and certainly viewed as apostasy...breaking up eternal families, losing exaltation, etc.
Those two different religions will not merge in the way you think, we have a lot of different beliefs that evangelicals will never agree with so we will never merge in that way
What a wonderful and refreshing dialogue! No contentions and just brotherly love ❤️!! You guys slayed it 🤩🙌🏻🫶🏻 Thank you so much!
Pastor Jeff…love your thoughts surrounding the conversation and friendships.
We’re disciples of Christ he is our Lord and master…let’s start there and work toward validating the good in each other and the love we each have for our Savior.
Keep on keeping on my man.
Kurt, love you too…long time participant to Leading Saints.
Thinks keeps on adding because God is a living God and He is teaching us step by step. Line upon line.
Why should God have to continue to add? We have 2k years worth of scripture, of his Word to follow. Everything is laid out for us. God can't possibly make it any more clear. God does not change. We are also not within his time frame. 1 years for us could be 1 Day for him. Jesus Christ finished it. Jesus is enough. He is all sufficient. He is the last high priest. We have all We need through Christ alone
A bible we have. That is all we need. Well, God is a living God. He teaches us line upon line. Precept upon precept. If we tried to teach the Bible to the Israelites out of Egypt, they would not be ready for that. The same goes today. Satan wants you to believe that a Bible is all you need.
@@montiraruba2831 the Bible is all you need. Where else can we get truth from besides the Bible? As Allison Nicole stated, the Bible is all we need, it contains everything we need to develop our faith with Jesus. We can read just Romans 10:9 and have everything we need in one verse. The rest is just there to help us cope with life. If you have some other way to get Jesus 2.0 from someone else, then that is what Jesus warned us about in Matthew 24:26
@@georgebauerschmidt5289 no need to throw scriptures at me. All I am saying is that we need a second witness testifying the teachings of Jesus Christ. Having only one witness, The Bible, you can see how people interprets scriptures differently resulting many different churches. A second witness will shed light unto the scriptures. The Book of Mormon stands as a second witness that testifies that Jesus is the Christ.
@@montiraruba2831 no need to throw scripture at you? Do you fear it? Does it bother you? If you read it instead of ignoring it, you'll see why you only need the Bible and not some fictional book masquerading as another scripture book. The b/M has no value to any Christian.
"To keep the conversation going, and allow the Lord to be in that space as we desire to see Him more clearly and walk in the path of truth." There’s your mission statement, Jeff. You ought to consider quoting yourself with that in every video you make. What a love and hope filled mission. God bless you and the rest of us in that pursuit.
Once Christ comes again, all who follow Him will follow Him, regardless of their current sect, so it will happen. Gonna be cool!
True!!! And I believe that in the end, God is not going to punish someone for being under false pretenses.
I loved this! I grew up in the Midwest, and had many many evangelicals as friends. Often they would invite me to their activities, and I would invite them to mine. Many years ago, I am 57 years old now, I remember being invited to watch some movies that were made about our faith, and they were grotesque and horrible. And they broke my heart. I knew that what I was watching was not true about my LDS faith. I remember my mom teaching me not to worry, but to love my friends, no matter what. I am ever grateful to you, Pastor Jeff, for opening the dialogue, and allowing our two faiths to learn from each other and do what Christ is asking us to do.
The Book of Mormon is true, and another witness of the same gospel of Jesus Christ as the Bible. Joseph Smith was a true prophet who worshipped Jesus Christ. The church was infiltrated by wicked men. When Joseph Smith was murdered, Brigham Young usurped control of the church and led some of the saints to SLC, Utah (many refused to follow him). Brigham Young introduced many false doctrines into that denomination including polygamy, men becoming Gods, Adam God, blood atonement of men, penal oath temple rituals, a Heavenly Mother, Lucifer being Jesus' brother, incorrect definition of Christ’s church, etc. None of that is in the Book of Mormon or teachings of Joseph Smith, but Brigham Young and the wicked leaders under and after him have pretended that it came from Joseph Smith in order to gain acceptance for their own evil and lustful desires. The LDS church of today is Brigham Young's denomination and is apostate from the teachings of the church under Joseph Smith.
@joesimpson9230, we don't agree with your assessment of Brigham Young, obviously, but we are soooooo grateful to the Community of Christ Church for preserving the JST and the sacred restoration sites and for their loving and loyal defense of the prophet Joseph Smith and the book of Mormon. ❤
@juliegreenman, your mother sounds like a wonderful woman. A true saint. Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God. ❤
Bryce Dunford has a wonderful series of lessons and in one of them he talks about the differences between how a telestial type person would act versus a terrestrial type person, and how a terrestrial person would act versus a celestial type person. Basically, a telestial person just hurts others. A terrestrial person will only hurt another if they are hurt. In defense. A celestial person hurts no one. They love when love isn't deserved. They do good to all. Even their enemies.
@@gwengold8154 Emma Smith preserved the JST...and testified as Joseph did that Joseph never practiced polygamy. LDS make Emma and Joseph out to be liars, and instead believe polygamist Brigham Young and his gang.
"At one time my husband came to me and asked me if I had heard certain rumors about spiritual marriages, or anything of the kind; and assured me that if I had, that they were without foundation; that there was no such doctrine, and never should be with his knowledge, or consent. I know that he had no other wife or wives than myself, in any sense, either spiritual or otherwise." Emma Smith, 1879
“What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery and having seven wives when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago, and I can prove them all perjurers.” - Jospeh Smith Jr. May 26, 1844
"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned; and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given, and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned." (Brigham Young - July 14, 1855 - Journal of Discourses, vol. 3, p. 266).
@@joesimpson9230We do not think that Joseph Smith was a liar. We are very grateful to Emma for preserving the JST and for all she did in the persecution days of the church. I leave all the sorting out of who supposedly said what to God.
A denomination of Christianity is simply a group of Christians who have been denominated (i.e., named) with a particular name to distinguish them from other Christians with different beliefs. The denomination Latter-day Saints belong to is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints."
I would argue that Christians and mormons have a fundamental difference in their respective belief systems, and that is the nature of Jesus. The chasm between the two beliefs about the nature of Jesus is insurmountable and enough to show that there are actually two separate religions. This isn’t a comment to denigrate or elevate either side, only to show that the two religions, by definition, worship different gods.
The love we have for each other will merge in fellowship but organizationally it cannot merge. These are two very different organizational structures.
This is probably the closest to reality
What a peculiar question-at least, from an LDS perspective. Why on earth would we *want* to merge?
Certainly we think our perspective of divinity and theology is the right one; and we’d like for individuals of good faith from all backgrounds to join us. But institutionally-the ‘gellies just don’t have anything we want.
Maybe not what you want, but what is needed.
Correcting false doctrines in LDS such as:
1.God once being a man (other than as manifested in flesh as Jesus Christ)
2. Men becoming Gods
3. A Heavenly Mother
4. God as three beings
5. Penal Oath temple rituals (Joseph Smith and BoM warn against them)
6. Temple recommends/requirements for the kingdom
7. Polygamy (Joseph Smith was not a polygamist, Brigham Young was)
8. Emphasis on expensive temples while there are poor among us.
9. Emphasis on following a false prophet / man, should only follow Jesus Christ
10. Definition of God's true church. (D&C 10:67-68)
11: “Covenant Path” rather than Doctrine of Christ 3 Nephi 5:32 RLDS (3 Nephi 11 LDS)
12. secret societies (Skull & Bones, Freemasonry)
@@joesimpson9230 I was wondering about the best way to address your gish-gallop technique in a limited format such as this, but your point #7 made that unnecessary.
The historical record is overwhelming that JS was absolutely a polygamist, and the LDS Church doesn’t need “correction” from anyone dishonest enough to argue otherwise.
@@mgy401 That is false as confirmed in court decision. Joseph Smith was only ever married to Emma Smith...just as he and Emma proclaimed.
TEMPLE LOT SUIT
Beyond all cavil, if human testimony is to place any matter for ever at rest, this church was one in doctrine, government, and purpose from 1830 to June, 1844, when Joseph Smith, its founder, was killed. It had the same federal head, governing bodies, and faith. During this period there was matter fundamental, or affecting its oneness. The only authorized and recognized books of doctrine and laws for the government of the church from 1830 to 1846 were the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. The Book of Doctrine and Covenants, which consisted principally of claimed divine revelations to Joseph Smith, was the edition published atKirtland, Ohio, in 1835, and at Nauvoo in 1845....
There can be no question of the fact that Brigham Young's assumed presidency was a bold and bald usurpation.
The Book of Doctrine and Covenants (printed in 1846) page 411, containing a revelation to Joseph Smith, January 19, 1841, gave unto them "my servant Joseph, to be a presiding elder over all my church, to be a translator, a revelator, a seer, and a prophet." ... The book clearly taught that the succession should descend lineally and go to the first-born. Joseph Smith so taught, and, before his taking off, publicly proclaimed his son Joseph, the present head of Complainant Church, his successor, and he was so anointed....
The Book of Mormon itself inveighed against the sin of polygamy.... Conformably to the Book of Mormon, the Book of Doctrine and Covenants expressly declared "that we believe that one man should have but one wife, and one woman but one husband." And this declaration of the church on this subject reappeared in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, editions of 1846 and 1856. Its first appearance as a dogma of the church (the dogma of polygamy) was in the Utah Church in 1852.
Claim is made by the Utah Church that this doctrine is predicated of a revelation made to Joseph Smith in July, 1843. No such revelation was ever made public during the life of Joseph Smith, and under the law of the church it could not become an article of faith and belief until submitted to and adopted by the church. This was never done ....
The Utah Church further departed from the principles and doctrines of the original church by changing in their teaching the first statement in the Article of Faith, which was, "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in his Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost," and in lieu thereof taught the doctrine of "Adam-god worship." ...
It has introduced societies of a secret order, and established secret oaths and covenants, contrary to the book of teachings of the old church. It has changed the duties of the President, and of the Twelve, and established the doctrine to "Obey Counsel," and has changed the order of the "Seventy, or Evangelists." ...
A considerable number of the officers and members of the church at Nauvoo did not ally themselves with any of the factions, and wherever they were they held onto the faith, refused to follow Brigham Young to Utah, and ever repudiated the doctrine of polygamy, which was the great rock of offense on which the church split after the death of Joseph Smith.
In 1852 the scattered fragments of the church, the remnants of those who held to the fortunes of the present Joseph Smith, son of the so-called "Martyr," gathered together sufficiently for a nucleus of organization. They took the name of "The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints," and avowed their allegiance to the teachings of the ancient church; and their epitome of faith adopted, while containing differences in phraseology, in its essentials is but a reproduction of that of the church as it existed from 1830 to 1844. To-day they are twenty-five thousand strong. [At present, 1911, the membership is about sixty thousand. -- E. A. S.]
It is charged by the Respondents, as an echo of the Utah Church, that Joseph Smith, "the Martyr," secretly taught and practiced polygamy; and the Utah contingent furnishes the evidence, and two of the women, to prove this fact. It perhaps would be uncharitable to say of these women that they have borne false testimony as to their connection with Joseph Smith; but, in view of all the evidence and circumstances surrounding the alleged intercourse, it is difficult to escape the conclusion that at most they were but sports in "nest hiding."
In view of the contention of the Salt Lake party, that polygamy obtained at Nauvoo as early as 1841, it must be a little embarrassing to President Woodruff of that organization when he is confronted, as he was in the evidence in this case, with a published card in the church organ at Nauvoo in October, 1843, certifying that he knew of no other rule or system of marriage than the one published in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and that the "secret wife system," charged against the church, was a creature of invention by one Doctor Bennett, and that they knew of no such society. That certificate was signed by the leading members of the church, including John Taylor the former President of the Utah Church. And a similar certificate was published by the Ladies' Relief Society of the same place, signed by Emma Smith, the wife of Joseph Smith, and Phoebe Woodruff, wife of the present President Woodruff.
No such marriage ever occurred under the rules of the church, and no offspring came from the imputed illicit intercourse, although Joseph Smith was in the full vigor of young manhood, and his wife Emma, was giving birth to healthy children in regular order, and was enciente at the time of Joseph's death.But if it were conceded that Joseph Smith, and Hyrum, his brother, did secretly practice concubinage, is the church to be charged with those liaisons, and the doctrine of polygamy to be predicated thereon of the church? If so, I suspect the doctrine of polygamy might be imputed to many of the Gentile churches. Certainly it was never promulgated, taught, nor recognized, as a doctrine of the church prior to the assumption of Brigham Young. -- Decision of Judge Philips in Temple Lot Case, pp. 20-26.
Agreed. The two beliefs systems are not the same religion. Why would a “merger” between mormons and Christians ever be considered? Ultimately we follow different gods. Pretty simple, right?
@@michaelsterling2650
God of the Book of Mormon is same as God of the Bible.
2 Nephi 13:32 (31:21 LDS)
And now behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, And the only and true doctrine of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God without end. Amen.
3 Nephi 4:42-44 RLDS (9 LDS)
Yea, verily I say unto you, If ye will come unto me, ye shall have eternal life. Behold, mine arm of mercy is extended towards you, and whosoever will come, him will I receive; and blessed are those who come unto me. Behold I am Jesus Christ, the son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
Mosiah 1:102 (3:8 LDS)
'And He shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; And His mother shall be called Mary;
Mosiah 5:44 (7:27 LDS)
And because he said unto them, that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning;
Mosiah 8:13 (13:34 LDS)
Have they not said that God himself should come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth?
2 Nephi 11 RLDS (2 Nephi 25 LDS)
"Yea, behold, I say unto you, that as these things are true, and as the Lord God liveth, there is none other name given under heaven, save it be this Jesus Christ of which I have spoken, whereby man can be saved."
2 Nephi 7:42 RLDS
And remember after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved.
Mosiah 1:108 (3:12 LDS)
But wo, wo unto him who knoweth that he rebelleth against God; for salvation cometh to none such, except it be through repentance and faith on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Jeff says he won’t call the LDS church a cult because it will end the conversation and the guest completely ignores it.
I said I won’t call it a cult because everyone defines “cult” differently. At one time, some called Protestantism a cult of Martin Luther.
but let's be honest, the group is a cult. ANY organization that identifies their religion as the "only true church" can be counted among the JW's, Catholics, Seventh-day Adventists, Unitarians, Worldwide/Restored Church of God and Family International. Church never means building or organization and the 'church' is the identity of the body of believers, not a congregation or denomination. Those that try to stake the claim they are the only one that God approves automatically reveals they are a cult.
@@HelloSaintsI don’t think Martin Luther would have enjoyed the connotation of being called a cult leader. If you respect Martin Luther, you accept that he wanted glory for God, not himself. If you don’t respect Martin Luther, you call him a cult leader who wanted glory for himself. People don’t generally tell their friends how excited they are about this new cult they have joined. The word ‘cult’ is used by people on the outside who worry about the excessive, misplaced, and harmful worshipping of the cultists. People who call Christianity a cult in general aren’t generally talking about it favorably. The word ‘cult’ is usually negative, rarely neutral, and never positive.
@@HelloSaintsAlso your exact words in the video were “Is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints a cult? I personally don’t think there is a yes or no answer.”
You didn’t say “you won’t call it a cult.” You left it open as if you might call it a cult, but you are undecided because of the complexity.
The doctrinal exclusion
This type of argument claims that since the Latter-day Saints do not always interpret the Bible as other Christians do, we must not be Christians. But, in fact, other denominations also differ among themselves doctrinally, and it is unreasonable to demand that Latter-day Saints conform to a single standard of “Christian” doctrine when no such single standard exists.
For example, the Latter-day Saints are accused of worshiping a “different god” because we do not believe in the traditional Trinity. “We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost” (A of F 1:1) as taught in the New Testament. What Latter-day Saints do not believe is the non-Biblical doctrine formulated by the councils of Nicaea (A.D. 325) and Chalcedon (A.D. 451) centuries after the time of Jesus-the doctrine that God is three coequal persons in one substance or essence. We do not believe it because it is not scriptural. As Harper’s Bible Dictionary states: “The formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament.”
Jesus didn’t teach the Nicene doctrine of the Trinity. The New Testament writers didn’t have any idea of it. The doctrine itself wasn’t invented until centuries later. So one can’t say the Latter-day Saints are not true Christians for not accepting it, unless one also excludes Jesus, his disciples, and the New Testament Church, who similarly did not know or teach it.
Latter-day Saints do believe that God the Father has a physical body. This view is attacked as “non-Christian” by critics who often cite John 4:24, which states in the King James version that “God is a spirit.” However, since there is no indefinite article (a, or an) in the Greek language from which this verse is translated, the consensus among biblical scholars is that there should not be an indefinite article at John 4:24. It should simply read “God is spirit.” In other words, this scripture does not limit God to being only a spirit, but merely includes spirit as one of his attributes. After all, we also read that “God is light” (1 Jn. 1:5) and “God is love” (1 Jn. 4:8), and yet no one interprets these verses to mean that God is only light, or God is only love. Certainly, the member of the Godhead called the Holy Ghost is spirit, but that fact tells us nothing about whether or not God the Father has a physical body.
Finally, quite often we hear that Latter-day Saints are not Christians because true Christians believe in salvation by grace, while the Latter-day Saints believe in salvation through our own good works. But this is a misunderstanding. Yes, Latter-day Saints do believe we must serve God with all our “heart, might, mind, and strength” (D&C 4:2). But the Book of Mormon makes perfectly clear that it is impossible for us to completely earn or deserve our blessings from God (Mosiah 2:21, 24); that redemption can never come through individual effort alone, but only through the Atonement of Jesus Christ (2 Ne. 2:3, 5-8); and that-after all we can do (Alma 24:11)-we are saved by grace (2 Ne. 10:24; 2 Ne. 25:23).
@allysonrk
You do know that the doctrine and concept of the trinity was not invented at Nicea, it was a doctrine long before by the early church fathers you don’t trust me look it up and do your own research. Church fathers from the 2nd and 3rd century believed it and taught it and the concept of the trinity is found both in the old and New Testament so it is not something man made. Please research this before blindly listening to what someone else said. I mean this with all due respect I love you guys and your community but I strongly disagree with your statement and I say that with respect. God bless you
Yet, instead of looking at it through the lens of which group is correct or incorrect on this topic, isn’t it more prudent to recognize that the two groups actually aren’t the same and actually do worship different gods.
It isn’t a “who is right” scenario, rather a “we can’t both be right” scenario.
if you just read 2 Ne. 25:23 and compare that to Ephesians 2:8-9 you'll see why we differ.
They both start out exactly the same, but then the second part says "after all you can do" in one book and "not of works" in the other. Polar opposites.
I say this with respect and no ill will against you or any other Latter Day Saint, but the bible is clear that here is only one God read the Old Testament and see for yourself and the New Testament claim that Jesus is God and the father is God and that the holy spirit is God not gods but the true living God YHWH (Jehovah) and that proves the trinity and the early church fathers taught this and believed it long before the council of Nicaea. Do your own research please and don’t listen to anyone blindly not me neither for that matter. Do your research and you will see that Christianity comes out on top and that the Bible and the early church confirms the trinity and all other mainstream Christian doctrines. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. I say this with respect and love and God bless you and take care of yourself my friend.
When Evangelicals ask “Are LDS members Christians or is the LDS church a Christian church? what they are actually asking is “Are they going to heaven?” I’m saying this as someone who grew up as a very committed evangelical. That is the foundation of the question. I think the idea that as an evangelical we were so obsessed with deciding whose faith met the theological standard of making it to heaven is ridiculous. I am now Catholic and the understanding is so different. I’m so happy to be freed from the idea that we have to give a theological litmus test for heaven.
This is an excellent point. I think that is what the label connotes for Protestants and Evangelicals. It is why they can't say that latter-day saints are Christians because they don't think that we are "saved."
@@gwengold8154 yes this is exactly why! It’s sad. If a Catholic says the LDS church is not Christian, they mean that their baptism does not meet the trinitarian requirement to officially count for membership in the catholic (meaning universal Christian) church. All LDS people I’ve met would agree with this statement (same reason why converts to the LDS church from other Christian traditions have to be re-baptized). They do not mean they aren’t going to heaven as we don’t believe that only people who believe exactly as we do go to heaven. I would say that LDS people are Christians meaning people who follow Jesus even if their baptism doesn’t match our requirements.
@saralyg That's lovely. And I learned something. I didn't realize that Catholics are so open-minded about who might inherit heaven.
Yes, latter-day saints are the same concerning baptism. We require other Christian converts to be re-baptized. I don't lose any sleep over the fact that other Christian churches require latter-day saint converts to be re-baptized. ;-)
I haven’t watched yet, so I’m anxious to see. When Christ comes to reign, He will have His church. I would have to do more research on the topic, but will Christ’s church be set up like when he was on the earth? Or will it look different? All I know is I’m following Him. I imagine anyone who loves Him will do the same.
When Jesus Christ returns everything is going to come together for all those that love Christ and seek to be His disciples. In the meantime, it is important to reach out to our brothers and sisters of other faiths with love.
Most followers of Jesus Christ want to be included together, so to be told we don’t fit in sometimes hurts, however, we need to find our own seat in the cafeteria and invite others to sit with us. Be okay with being excluded, and just start inviting!
I love the friendship I see between Jeff and Kurt. I’m doing my own exploring with curiosity in Judaism. I’m making friends with some in my local synagogue. I’ve come to better understand my own LDS faith and to get an entirely fresh understanding on the importance of having modern-day prophets. I thought I appreciated President Nelson before, but never as much as I do now. Also, imagining a world without acknowledging and loving Jesus Christ? No. I’d never want that. To no longer have the New Testament and the Book of Mormon and the D&C, etc? have such a new appreciation for these precious things.
Some will feel the Holy Spirit testify of the truths of The Book of Mormon in this life, and some will not, but it will be. We just need to be patient and invite others to our table.
Thank you Kurt and Jeff. This was great and I loved this!
I have been a member of the LDS faith since I was 1 (that's when my parents joined the church). After 67 years I can't even think about not being LDS. I have also watched many of the Helo Saints videos. If I am honest with my feelings, I (and probably many other LDS viewers) hope that the end result of all of this exploration ends in Pastor Jeffs conversion to our faith.
As to a possible merge (before the return of the Savior) it would basically mean that the Evangelical church would have to change their beliefs and accept ours, or we would basically have to give up many of ours. Think of Temple ordinances, Prophets, the condition of heaven and most importantly the three separate personages of God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. These (and many more) make up the basic foundation of our church, and something that I for one would not let go of. So until the Savior returns and explains to all people the truth and creates or expands His church - I could see a simpler church that follows the teachings of the living Christ - based on His teachings of love and repentance, there cannot be a merger, only conversion.
I believe there will be a merger just as Jesus Christ prayed for His church to be one. But both denominations will have to abandon falsehoods first. The Book of Mormon is true, and another witness of the same gospel of Jesus Christ as the Bible. Joseph Smith was a true prophet who worshipped Jesus Christ. The church was infiltrated by wicked men. When Joseph Smith was murdered, Brigham Young usurped control of the church and led some of the saints to SLC, Utah (many refused to follow him). Brigham Young introduced many false doctrines into that denomination including polygamy, men becoming Gods, Adam God, blood atonement of men, penal oath temple rituals, a Heavenly Mother, Lucifer being Jesus' brother, incorrect definition of Christ’s church, etc. None of that is in the Book of Mormon or teachings of Joseph Smith, but Brigham Young and the wicked leaders under and after him have pretended that it came from Joseph Smith in order to gain acceptance for their own evil and lustful desires. The LDS church of today is Brigham Young's denomination and is apostate from the teachings of the church under Joseph Smith.
And the corporate church once taught that Adam was God…but not anymore.
Wow! I just looked that up. that's amazing.
A merger would be great! The extra tithing money could buy a lot of shopping malls.
i spit out my coffee after reading that
I love the questions at the end. If my daughter left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and became an Evangelical... yes, I would love that so much more than her becoming an atheist. A comparison would be my daughter leaving the Evangelical tradition to become a Catholic Nun. I would see it as sad that she would no longer enjoy the blessing of marriage and having her own children, but I would be happy she still had dedication to Jesus.
Exactly. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Yesterday god called prophets so today and tomorrow he must call prophets.
Hebrews 1:1-4
The Supremacy of God’s Son
[1] Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, [2] but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. [3] He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, [4] having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. (ESV)
@@BrendonKing yes , God spoke through his son Jesus Christ when he was on the earth. When Jesus left, communication was through Peter the chief apostle (prophet) and the other apostles.
@@justjamie7577 you miss the point of Hebrews then. Christ is the completion of all things.
@@BrendonKingpertaining to the Mosaic Law, yes, but not the prophetic tradition.
@@BrendonKing yes Christ did. And when he left the earth God still spoke to the apostles who then spoke to the people.
Loved this 2-way conversation. I think many appreciate hearing honest opinions and differences said in respectful and kind ways. We have so much in common, and I love feeling a little more connected regardless of differences in our faiths. Wonderful. ❤️ thank you Pastor Jeff.
This question was answered a long time ago.
JSH 1: 18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)-and which I should join.
19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
20 He again forbade me to join with any of them…
D&C 1:30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually
I love you, guys! Thank you so much!!!
I am so amazed by how honestly and truly you look for the truth and love, Jeff!
We really need more people like you, and you are doing so much to help others understand better and show more love towards one another ❤
Thanks again to both of you ❤❤
No, I don't think so unless they accept that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God - and that we have a revelation today through a LIVING PROPHET that talks to God… but we are all children of God.
Or if Evangelicals came to recognize that Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, and LDS came to recognize the Brigham Young and Russell Nelson are not.
Um CIRobite, even if people believed Joseph smith is a prophet that still doesn’t mean the Brighamite church is that church LOL Brigham young was a horrible evil man in some ways worse than Joseph smith
I came across Hello Saints channel last year when experiencing a faith crisis in the LDS church.
I have been an active follower since.
This poscast was phenomenal. You are both great examples and I love the WE attitude vs US and THEM.
It is hard for many Christians to come to the realization that God is bigger than 66 scrolls of the Bible. It is hard for many in the LDS denomination to come to the realization that God is bigger than their denomination. When growing up RLDS, I heard the "we are the one true church" often...although not as often I think as it is repeated in the LDS. One thing that I have gained from leaving that denomination (after they became CoC and way leftist and somewhat abandoned roots) was a realization that God was bigger than the box I had put Him in. He was present in the first congregation (Evangelical) that I started attending. He was also present in the next congregation (Evangelical) I went to also. They absolutely missed on the clarity of the scriptures of the Book of Mormon and they are far from perfect, but God still moves there regularly. One day (I believe soon) I know that God will bring His church together and I believe He is starting to bring down some man-made denominational walls even now. He is a big big God. He is a good good God. Looking forward to Zion!
I enjoyed the discussion. I'm wondering, Pastor Jeff, what you have learned about your own faith by studying the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
I myself learn so much about my faith when I review other religions like Mormons, JW's, Catholics and Seventh-day Adventists. It helps me understand the Bible more because I need to come up with answers to the questions they have about our differences.
I wish it was like that, Kurt. I've not experienced any LDS parents who are totally cool with a kid leaving the church for any reason to go anywhere else. If you believe the doctrine that is taught, it literally means their kid just broke up their eternal family.
Please don't judge. Just love them and respect their agency. You are discounting the doctrine of repentance, restoration and redemption.
No. There are too many differences. I know you want to say what do we have in common, but every lds belief that is the same as Christianity is twisted in some way. Nothing is exactly the same.
the entirety of Mormonism is based on the assumption that all other evangelical churches are corrupt.
Twisted lol
I think it’s amazing what Pastor Jeff is doing here. Thank you so much for what you are trying to do. This is such a sensitive topic. It’s so hard to talk about differences in our religions while being fully respectful, as Jesus would have us be.
In the episode of ‘The Chosen’ where Jesus goes back to Nazareth and says “I am the law of Moses”, that passage of scripture shows, (and in the series it becomes so clear) how hard it must have been for people to accept Jesus. We think that people were so blind and hard hearted, that they didn’t see the Christ in front of them, despite all the miracles. But now we know that he was the Messiah, it’s easy for us to judge the Pharisees.
The things that He taught were so ‘provocative’ or ‘offensive’ to what the people believed then, “contradicting” the law of Moses, that it was in fact very hard for them to accept it.
Now, we have the same sensitive situation, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believes in continuous revelation with living prophets. The Bible is the word of God, but, there are more nations than one, God also spoke to other nations, hence the Book of Mormon, and that God still speaks today, “God is the same yesterday today and forever”.
For other Christians this will be very hard to believe… to accept there is more scripture revealed by God, and, without receiving a testimony of themselves, how could they believe?
We (members of the church of Jesus Christ) cannot judge who doesn’t believe, it is completely understandable, they can’t just accept something new as truth, or as a true prophet, you must learn about it, ask, and receive from God. A testimony is something personal.
For an evangelical, somethings may sound (forgive me the term) ‘a bit crazy’, but it’s because they are new - if God did speak to prophets in other parts of the world, it would be normal (or at least logical) that there will be doctrines that were revealed more clearly to some prophets and not to others. The amazing thing is that the Book of Mormon doesn’t contradict the Bible in anything, it’s just that somethings are clearer in the Book of Mormon and others are clearer in the Bible.
But in summary we cannot judge people by what we think or believe... We just need to be humble and value what other people believe in even if we don’t understand it.
This was such a great conversation. I enjoyed this episode quite a bit!
As a member of the Church, us and evangelicals and another faiths have a lot to learn from each other to be better worshipers of God. From my perspective the Church especially our general culture could use a lot of improving by being more accepting of Christ's Grace instead of being so anxious about our salvation or even exaltation. It's about a balance of Grace vs works. Being "anxiously engaged in a good cause" absolutely does not mean having anxiety about whether you're good or not. I had a brother commit suicide recently and I strongly believe that if he leaned/believed more on Christ's Grace, things could have been different.
14:49 this is exactly where I've come to with us being called "Christian" or not. I don't need to sit at the Christian lunch table to have my relationship with God and Jesus Christ.
My husband and I served a mission in Jacksonville Florida. We had so many people see the name of Jesus Christ on our name badge and wanted to talk about how great Jesus was in our lives and we loved that. We would never say that other religions are Christians so I don’t know why other Christian’s feel it is right to pass judgement. That is for God and Christ to do.
We really need to combine, not by organizational but to strengthen each other to withstand what is coming in the world to protect our Christian rights.
I love Hello Saints and Leading Saints, so this was a great collaboration!
No, and this is from a Catholic
Such a strange conversation. What I have learned about evangelicals from Pastor Jeff is that they don’t believe in ordinances, priesthood authority, or a physical Godhood. They don’t believe in the Book of Mormon as scripture or the importance of living prophets. These differences are real doctrinal differences and there is absolutely no way to “merge” the beliefs. We already have salvation by accepting Christ as the evangelicals require. Our belief reinforces the idea that each person has a right to choose what they want to believe. We already focus on commonality. But merging, diluting our doctrine? Absolutely NO. The restoration is not the same as the reformation. These podcasts tend to present The Church of Jesus Christ in the Evangelical light rather than its own light. The title of this podcast is designed to grab your attention and is rather tongue in cheek.
"Following the living prophet" is not scriptural. Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon teach to follow Jesus Christ only. Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon also teach that there is only one God. Much reconciliation could be made if denominations would take a look again at what the scriptures teach, and abandon the contrary doctrines of man that have been adopted.
In the New Testament, all believers, men, women, children and even black people have been priests now for 2,000 years. It is not a position in a church. It is who we are in Christ. The true and living God never banned anyone from the priesthood until 1978.
I Peter 2:5, 9
Revelation 1:6; 5:10;
The Aaronic priesthood belongs only to the descendants of Levi. No man from any other tribe ever had the Aaronic priesthood. Only men from the ages of 25-50 had the Aaronic priesthood. Twelve year old's were not slaughtering animals.
Jesus Christ, his disciples, and the men in the BOM never had the Aaronic priesthood. They were not from the tribe of Levi.
The Melchizedek priesthood belongs exclusively to Jesus Christ. Only Christ is without mother and father, King of Salem and King of righteousness. Hebrews 7
Evangelicals and Latter day Saints will never merge.
We worship different God's.
The true and living God the Father is invisible and a spirit.
I Timothy 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
Moses endured, as seeing him who is invisible.-Hebrews 11:27.
Col. 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
I’m guessing that you believe in Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit. So do we. There is no one else we worship. Prophets and apostles encourage us to follow Christ as our Savior and Exempler. And prophets and apostles are found in the scriptures. Abraham, Noah, and Moses were all prophets. Christ picked 12 apostles to lead the church and guide it after he was crucified.
We worship Jesus Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit and no one else. We believe in prophets and apostles. Abraham, Noah, and Moses were all prophets. Jesus chose apostles to lead the church after he died. Modern prophets encourage us to be diligent in following Christ.
The gospel of the church is actually much easier to comprehend than what Jeff teaches.the Godhead that he teaches is mind blowing to me. Makes no sense at all to me. To me the bible teaches the God head as the church teaches it. Even than Jeff does not understand Christ as I do . I know He is a Christian. And wish they would give us the same treatment. Christ is vital to our Faith. Without the Atonement all would be lost. But we believe He expects much of us. faith without works is dead. If ye love me keep my commandments. What manner of man aught ye to be, even as I am. grace has always been vital to us. The scriptures say we must become of one . Carol
Au contror mon frere, the lds view of the god head is sooooo confusing. Trinitarianism makes so much more sense. Even if it doesn't make any sense sometimes.
The lds view just doesn't make any sense. God being a man of flesh and bones, becoming exalted, residing in a star near Kolob, having a heavenly wife named heavenly mother, making babies in spirit heaven, jesus christ being created, the holy spirit being a personage, and how all 3 persons are 3 separate beings. Its just such a different religion from Christianity.
Glory to Jesus Christ 🙏☦️♥️
The Godhead described in the Book of Mormon is true. Sadly, the LDS don't really teach that. Trinitarians also teach a falsehood pretending that God is "3 persons". There is only one God and there will ever only be one God. Jesus Christ is God. Jesus Christ is both the Father (because of His Spirit) and the Son (because of His flesh). Father and Son and Holy Spirit are different manifestations / characters / titles of the one God.
Mosiah 8:28-32 RLDS (15:1-5 LDS)
And now Abinadi saith unto them: "I would that ye should understand that God Himself shall come down among the children of men and shall redeem His people; And because He dwelleth in flesh, He shall be called the Son of God; And having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son - The Father, because He was conceived by the power of God, and the Son, because of the flesh, thus becoming the Father and Son, And They are one God, yea, the Very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth - And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation and yieldeth not to the temptation, But suffereth Himself to be mocked and scourged and cast out and disowned by His people.
Mosiah 5:44 (7:27 LDS)
And because he said unto them, that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning;
Mosiah 8:13 (13:34 LDS)
Have they not said that God himself should come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth?
Alma 8 79-82, 104 RLDS (11:26-29 LDS)
And Zeezrom saith unto him: "Thou sayest there is a true and a living God?"
And Amulek saith: "Yea, there is a true and a living God."
Now Zeezrom saith: "Is there more than one God?"
And he answered: "No."
And shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son and God the Father and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, To be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.
Alma 8 (11:38-39 LDS)
93 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: "Is the Son of God the Very Eternal Father?"
94 And Amulek saith unto him: "Yea, He is the Very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth and all things which in them is;
95 He is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;
Mosiah 8:91 (16:15 LDS)
Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, which is the Very Eternal Father. Amen.
@@joesimpson9230no
@@Compulsive-Elk7103 Lookup the word "person" in a dictionary. It is defined as a being. God is not 3 beings. The Book of Mormon is true.
2 Nephi 13:32 (31:21 LDS)
And now behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, And the only and true doctrine of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God without end. Amen.
@@joesimpson9230 “I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods,” (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370).
I appreciate this respectful dialog. Thank you! Now more than ever, we need all Christian denominations to rally and combine efforts to fight against evil that is so prevalent in today’s world.
Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
“I will dwell in them and walk among them;
And I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
“Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,” says the Lord.
“And do not touch what is unclean;
And I will welcome you.
“And I will be a father to you,
And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,”
Says the Lord Almighty.
- 2 Corinthians 6:14-18
3 Nephi 4:42-44 RLDS (9 LDS)
Yea, verily I say unto you, If ye will come unto me, ye shall have eternal life. Behold, mine arm of mercy is extended towards you, and whosoever will come, him will I receive; and blessed are those who come unto me. Behold I am Jesus Christ, the son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are.
@@joesimpson9230 why are you spamming the board by using some obscure passage from a book written by some guy that plagiarized most of it and then tried to get it copyrighted as his own original work?
@@georgebauerschmidt5289 You're on the wrong channel if you can't bear to hear about the Book of Mormon. What specifically of that scripture offends you? That Jesus Christ is the way to eternal life? Does His gospel offend you?
3 Nephi 12
25 "Behold, I have given unto you My gospel, And this is the gospel which I have given unto you - That I came into the world to do the will of My Father because My Father sent Me;
26 And My Father sent Me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; And after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, I might draw all men unto Me;
27 That as I have been lifted up by men, even so should men be lifted up by the Father to stand before Me to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil;
28 And for this cause have I been lifted up; Therefore, according to the power of the Father, I will draw all men unto Me, that they may be judged according to their works.
29 "And it shall come to pass that whoso repenteth and is baptized in My name shall be filled; And if he endureth to the end, Behold, him will I hold guiltless before My Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world;
30 And he that endureth not unto the end, The same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire from whence they can no more return because of the justice of the Father. "And this is the word which He hath given unto the children of men;
31 And for this cause He fulfilleth the words which He hath given, And He lieth not, but fulfilleth all His words; And no unclean thing can enter into His kingdom;
32 Therefore, nothing entereth into His rest, Save it be those who have washed their garments in My blood because of their faith and the repentance of all their sins and their faithfulness unto the end.
33 "Now this is the commandment: Repent, all ye ends of the earth! and come unto Me! and be baptized in My name! That ye may be sanctified by the reception of the Holy Ghost, That ye may stand spotless before Me at the last day!
34 "Verily, verily I say unto you, this is My gospel. "And ye know the things that ye must do in My church, For the works which ye have seen Me do, that shall ye also do;
35 For that which ye have seen Me do, even that shall ye do; Therefore, if ye do these things, blessed are ye, For ye shall be lifted up at the last day.
@@joesimpson9230 I can read the gospel in the Bible, organized does that offend you? You don't read the q'ran why not? And Joey wasn't a prophet, just someone that used a trick to find lost treasures and copy it as a new religion
@@georgebauerschmidt5289 I can read the gospel of Jesus Christ is the Bible too. And from the Bible I see that it never mentions the word "Bible" nor does it pretend that all of God's words would be limited to a Bible...or limited at all. Jesus Christ was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel and that certainly included the lost sheep of the 10 lost tribes of Israel scattered across the earth. They too heard His voice.
Matthew 15:24
“But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Luke 19:10
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
John 21:25
"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."
2Esdras 13:40-45
Those are the ten tribes, which were carried away prisoners out of their own land in the time of Osea the king, whom Salmanasar the king of Assyria led away captive, and he carried them over the waters, and so came they into another land.
But they took this counsel among themselves, that they would leave the multitude of the heathen, and go forth into a further country, where never mankind dwelt,
That they might there keep their statutes, which they never kept in their own land.
And they entered into Euphrates by the narrow places of the river.
For the most High then shewed signs for them, and held still the flood, till they were passed over.
For through that country there was a great way to go, namely, of a year and a half: and the same region is called Arsareth.
My Ward Council (the leaders of each organization of the ward) in California was just sharing about how helpful the "Leading Saints" podcast has been for certain of them, and then, in an answer to prayer, I was led back into watching "Hello Saints" and come across this episode. I think the Lord might be using your channel to help me get to "Leading Saints" because there must be something I should be learning.
God didn't add another day in your life because you need it he gave it because someone out there needs you praise God praying for Everyone everyday God bless you all.
Latter-day Saints don't believe we are a denomination of Christianity. We believe we are the nomination of Christianity.
I have been saying this for years. We are on the same team when it comes to good and evil, morals, families, etc. Just think of the amount of influence we could have on the world if we worked together, and ignored our minor differences. We don't have to merge to work together. Even the Jews who don't believe that Christ is our savior are on our side.
Amen-well said!
Is the major differences that these two faiths can ever come together. They are fundamental different beliefs on the nature of God, the mission of Jesus, and what it means to receive eternal life.
When Jesus comes again, we will all come together! We all just need to follow God the best we know how for now.
Gabriel is Noah? What?!?! Yea no...
I was wondering about that statement myself. Did some magic happen? LOL
Joseph Smith said people lived on the moon.
@@jlewis8145i thought that was brigham young?!
From what I know, people can become angels when they die in the LDS faith. So, it’s entirely bonkers for Noah to be Gabriel, though I don’t see anything biblically that would suggest people become angels.
@@Compulsive-Elk7103 Brigham Young said that people lived on the moon and the sun.
How can two different faiths merge or join one into the other to become one church, when the God head of the two faiths are so very different. LDS believe God the father is one and Jesus Christ the son is two and the holy Ghost is three without body.The evangelical believe the father and the son and the holy spirit are one and the same.
But many Christian denominations teach that God is "3 persons" and a person is a being according to dictionary definitions. That is contrary to both the scriptures of the Bible and the Book of Mormon which teach that there is only one God, and that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is one God. I agree that the LDS don't teach that.
2 Nephi 13:32 (31:21 LDS)
And now behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, And the only and true doctrine of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God without end. Amen.
Mormon 3:29
And He hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, Whereby he that is found guiltless before Him at the judgment day hath it given unto them to dwell in the presence of God in His kingdom, To sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above unto the Father and unto the Son and unto the Holy Ghost, which is one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.
D&C LDS 20:28, RLDS 17:5h
Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.
Book of Mormon - Testimony of the Three Witnesses
And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Martin Harris.
I respectfully disagree if I'm right in understand the context you are referencing. do you believe or understand that LDS faith teaches that Jesus Christ because of his infinite atonement is the God of this universe. His father "Elohim" is the God of everything as far as we know in this estate or dispensation. We are taught that there will be many Gods throughout the eternities. @@joesimpson9230
@@patriot8087 Yes, the LDS are taught the falsehood of many Gods despite what the scriptures of the Bible and the Book of Mormon say. The scriptures teach that:
1. there is only one God, and will only ever be one God
2. the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one God
3. Jesus Christ is God
4. Jesus Christ is both the Father (because of His Spirit in Him) and the Son (because of His flesh).
LDS don't teach that because the leaders are apostate from the truth.
When Jesus was on the cross, and he said father forgive them they know what they do. who was he talking too? himself. @@joesimpson9230
@@patriot8087 The Son (humanness) of Jesus praying to the Father (Spirit and God). That same Spirit of God dwells in Jesus Christ.
Luke 10:23 Inspired Version (Joseph Smith Translation)
All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it.
Mosiah 8:28-32 RLDS (15:1-5 LDS)
And now Abinadi saith unto them: "I would that ye should understand that God Himself shall come down among the children of men and shall redeem His people; And because He dwelleth in flesh, He shall be called the Son of God; And having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son - The Father, because He was conceived by the power of God, and the Son, because of the flesh, thus becoming the Father and Son, And They are one God, yea, the Very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth - And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation and yieldeth not to the temptation, But suffereth Himself to be mocked and scourged and cast out and disowned by His people.
Mosiah 5:44 (7:27 LDS)
And because he said unto them, that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning;
Mosiah 8:91 (16:15 LDS)
Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, which is the Very Eternal Father. Amen.
Alma 8 (11:38-39 LDS)
93 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: "Is the Son of God the Very Eternal Father?"
94 And Amulek saith unto him: "Yea, He is the Very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth and all things which in them is;
95 He is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;
Alma 8 79-82, 104 RLDS (11:26-29 LDS)
And Zeezrom saith unto him: "Thou sayest there is a true and a living God?"
And Amulek saith: "Yea, there is a true and a living God."
Now Zeezrom saith: "Is there more than one God?"
And he answered: "No."
And shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son and God the Father and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, To be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.
3 Nephi 1 LDS
12 “And it came to pass that he cried mightily unto the Lord all that day; and behold, the voice of the Lord came unto him, saying:
13 Lift up your head and be of good cheer; for behold, the time is at hand, and on this night shall the sign be given, and on the morrow come I into the world, to show unto the world that I will fulfil all that which I have caused to be spoken by the mouth of my holy prophets.
14 Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfil all things which I have made known unto the children of men from the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son-of the Father because of me and of the son because of my flesh. And behold, the time is at hand, and this night shall the sign be given.”
Ether 1 (3 LDS)
72 And the Lord said unto him: "Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon Me flesh and blood;
77 Behold I Am He which was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem My people Behold I Am Jesus Christ I Am the Father and the Son.
80 "Seest thou that ye are created after Mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after Mine own image;
81 Behold, this body which ye now behold is the body of My Spirit; And man have I created after the body of My Spirit; And even as I appear unto thee to be in the Spirit, will I appear unto My people in the flesh."
101 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in Me, " saith the Lord, "even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in Me, Then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all My revelations, " saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth and all things that in them is.
107 And I Am the same that leadeth men to all good."He that will not believe My words will not believe Me, that I Am; And he that will not believe Me will not believe the Father which sent Me;
108 For behold, I Am the Father; I Am the light and the life and the truth of the world.
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 14:8-11
Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Yes, we will merge at the Savior's second coming. 🙂
I'm not so sure this is true, even. God doesn't force either moral or intellectual assent. But, praise God, I DO believe we will live closer to one another, as brothers and sisters in Christ. And it will be so with many other honorable people of many other faiths who are humble and willing to receive all the light God, in his wisdom, is willing to dispense to each of us.
Its true "for those WHO CHOOSE" to merge! Its correct The Lord "will not force anyone's hand or feet to move if they dont want to". But, If the Lord says, move your feet, will you be willingly obedient to do so??@@towardcivicliteracy
This was a great conversation between you two and a great example of how people of different faiths can communicate together. Thank you
Love the conversation. I think the perspective on if the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints is Christian comes down to how different ones beliefs can be especilly beliefs about Jesus Christ and still be considered christian. There is variation within the christian Faith's about Jesus Christ and his mission. I don't see the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints as being too far away from the christian beliefs to not be Christian.
I think the real issue is that latter day saints core doctrine is a belief in Jesus Christ so labeling us not christian can come across as denial of our most central doctrine.
Exactly. Don't let us sit at your table if you don't want us there But don't deny our most core belief.
Mormonism teaches a different Jesus, Jesus is not created, he was not born to a Father and Mother God in heaven, Jesus is our creator, he cannot create himself. you must have the biblical Jesus to be a Christian.
@@hollayevladimiroff131 Mormonism does not teach that Jesus was created. And does teach that Jesus is the creator. You seem to have knowledge of some of our teachings but clearly not all.
@@justjamie7577 perhaps you are new the organization, but yes, Mormonism not only teaches that Jesus was created and brother to lucifer, but also that He is very limited with forgiving sins.
@@georgebauerschmidt5289 no, we are coeternal with the father. We existed in some form or fashion before becoming spirit children. It's a hard concept to get your head around and it's not talked about often. There was never a time when Jesus Christ or any of us didn't exist. We teach that Lucifer, Jesus, you, me and everyone are spirit children of God the Father. Lucifer and a third of the spirit children rebelled. Cain and Abel were brothers. Good people can have evil brothers, it doesn't make them any less good. And no, we do not teach that Jesus will forgive a Very limited number of people. We believe that Christ is just and merciful. Where most religions teach God will send people to hell, we teach that they will go to the tellestrial kingdom of heaven which is glorious. Glory instead of hell sounds like forgiveness to me.
Sure they could merge as long as the evangelical church agrees to forsake all of its previous teachings, change its name to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, aligns all of its doctrines, policies, and and teachings to be identical to the LDS church, agrees to follow each and every single rule, policy, and doctrine of the LDS church. That includes all leadership and all members to get baptized and pay 10% tithing to the LDS church. As long as they do all that and more, than sure they could merge.
Interesting chat, Jeff, but it is absolutely impossible for the two churches to merge. EV's seem to have a yuge problem admitting that since Adam to the second coming... prophets have always been in the plan. As well, the knowledge that Jesus Christ is a Spirit who is a perfect heavenly man ... just like His Father is. Together, they are one LORD.
One church, one Godhead and one doctrine. :>)
Ephesians 4
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,...
... 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, *PROPHETS* ; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the *knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man* , unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Way to miss Hebrews 1 there.
@@BrendonKing ... Can you be more specific, Brendon? Surly you can't be referring to the part where it says Jesus, being a spirit who is an eternal heavenly man, is the spitt'in image of His Father. In fact it says Jesus is the EXPRESS image of His Father. Both perfect heavenly Beings.
I am very aware of that in Hebrews 1 and how much it supports my original comment. Other than that you might have to help me out some.
Thanks.
@@godsoffspring4195
Hebrews 1:1-4
The Supremacy of God’s Son
[1] Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, [2] but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. [3] He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, [4] having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. (ESV)
Very clearly there is a shift from prophetic instruction. "BUT IN THESE LAST DAYS".
@@godsoffspring4195
Hebrews 1:1-4
The Supremacy of God’s Son
[1] Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, [2] but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. [3] He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, [4] having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. (ESV)
@@godsoffspring4195Hebrew talks about how Jesus fulfilled all the OT commandments and ordinances and covenants necessary to be in full relationship with God. Because of this, there is no more need for a temple, or ongoing revelation, because Jesus has provided full access to the Father through his shed blood
I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed this format much better than some of the others on this channel. It was less preachy and more like friends of different faiths talking. Kurt is awesome and he was a great pick to have on the program. 😊
Lastly, I gotta say that my opinion of you went way up upon hearing that you wrote in Mitt Romney for president. ❤
Eternal Progression is The Issue
Great discussion - it would be wonderful if all evangelical and LDS people could do the same. Unfortunately PGP (pride, greed, or power) somehow enter into many of those conversations and they end up being a debate or worse. I understand where Pastor Jeff is coming from to some degree but find it difficult to understand why God would not want to communicate through modern prophets and apostles. He did so after Christ for a while until the apostles were killed off. Why call Paul and not latter-day apostles? Why rely on historical documents collected and canonized during the Council of Nicaea as your sole source of understanding? The prophetic words of the Bible haven’t all been fulfilled yet but evangelicals who claim they are the ones who have the correct interpretations of those are no different than the Pharisees of the Jewish Old Testament who refused to accept that Jesus was the prophesied Messiah. I think the real answer lies in humble prayer. Are you willing to be teachable? Are you seeking real answers or justification for your current beliefs? My personal experience with prayer and being willing to accept things that I disagreed with when I received an answer to the contrary have opened my mind/heart in ways I could never have imagined. There are those who might say I’m being deceived by Satan - but can you show me anywhere that he entices someone to do good or be helpful? Personal revelation is critical to understanding Christ and your relationship with Him. Without personal revelation you will be ever learning but never come to an understanding of the truth. Setting aside personal beliefs is difficult but how else does one become teachable as a small child? Perhaps my biggest concern are those who tell me that I believe in a different Christ than they do. The Christ of the New Testament is my Christ. The Christ of the Book of Mormon is my Christ. They are the same Christ. The only difference I see is that I have more information about Christ because of the Book of Mormon and modern Apostles and Prophets.
Joseph Smith said that Jesus Christ was the brother of Satan.
The Bible says that Jesus Christ created Satan.
Great conversation! I really appreciate Kurt’s approach. I completely agree with Jeff about all the doctrines of the LDS church cluttering up a relationship with Jesus. (Don’t come at me LDS members…I’m stating this is how it was for me.) Since leaving the LDS faith and joining mainstream Christianity I would say my understanding of who Christ is and my relationship with him have greatly improved.
I don’t see any successful merging of LDS and EV because there would have to be way too many concessions made on one side or the other.
The Book of Mormon is true, and another witness of the same gospel of Jesus Christ as the Bible. Joseph Smith was a true prophet who worshipped Jesus Christ. The church was infiltrated by wicked men. When Joseph Smith was murdered, Brigham Young usurped control of the church and led some of the saints to SLC, Utah (many refused to follow him). Brigham Young introduced many false doctrines into that denomination including polygamy, men becoming Gods, Adam God, blood atonement of men, penal oath temple rituals, a Heavenly Mother, Lucifer being Jesus' brother, incorrect definition of Christ’s church, etc. None of that is in the Book of Mormon or teachings of Joseph Smith, but Brigham Young and the wicked leaders under and after him have pretended that it came from Joseph Smith in order to gain acceptance for their own evil and lustful desires. The LDS church of today is Brigham Young's denomination and is apostate from the teachings of the church under Joseph Smith.
John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
To worship in Spirit means that we need to have been moved from spiritual death to spiritual life; done so by repentance of sins and confessed belief in God’s provision of salvation through Jesus Christ.
To Worship in truth means that one must understand the truth of God’s revealed character and nature.
If one’s understanding (theology) of God’s character and nature does not align with what has been revealed by the Holy Spirit in The Bible, one has not been Born Again and God’s truth is not in him; therefore worship of Him is not possible.
I love having the knowledge that we have all been saved through the atonement of Jesus Christ. As I understand the difference comes when we believe that the portion of exaltation we will receive depends on our obedience to God's commandments that we are willing to accept and live. And for Latter-day Saints, that includes the ordinances that we do or do not accept. But yes, we will all have eternal life because of our Savior.
As an evangelical Christian, it’s more differences than just levels of heaven. LDS and mainstream Christianity disagree on fundamental doctrines of the Nature of God, the mission of Jesus, and who will receive eternal life. Mainstream Christian’s believe more people will go to hell than be saved/get eternal life as revealed in the Bible. That’s why we’re so passionate about explaining the gospel simple and clear
All life is eternal, but without excepting Christ as God and your personal savior, then you will go to hell. Hell was not meant for humans, but that’s where the unbeliever goes. Study your king James, without the lens of a 14-year-old boy, and he will get a better picture of what really happens. God bless, I’m praying for you.
ordinances don't save or add to your blessings or forgiveness. you do them because you want to, not for the 'work' they provide. our works are filthy rags to the lord. We are saved by faith from His grace, not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Galatians 2:16)
I like the Saints being called "Restorationists". Accurate. Jesus confirmed that to the survivors in His American visit in 3Nephi 27 (5-10)
9"Verily I say unto you, ...ye shall call whatsoever things ye do call, in my name; therefore if ye call upon the Father, for the church, if it be in my name the Father will hear you;
10 And if it so be that the church is built upon my gospel then will the Father show forth his own works in it."
Are we following His map, so we don't wander off course and get lost? If we follow God's spiritual GPS (Holy Ghost) we will. If we just don't turn off our signal!
You lost me with Mittens.
I never liked that politician.
Based
The biggest reason it can't work is one i never knew before listening to Hello Saints. Pastor Jeff believes that the Garden of Eden was perfection and we are striving to return to that type of existence. We believe the Garden was only the beginning of the journey on Earth and we are trying to ascend to a whole different and more exalted place. That is such a different focus and mindset, even if we both believe Christ is our Savior.
But isn’t it more about how different the two systems view the nature of Jesus? Don’t those differences show that, in fact, the two groups are following different gods?
@@michaelsterling2650 exactly. One groups thinks Jesus was created, a brother to an angel and limited in His ability to forgive others because they must fill in the gap of what the cross does not provide.
The other group knows Jesus is God, an eternal and infinite being that died so that all sins are forgiven by our faith in Him and that none of our works can ever be used towards our justification because of the magnitude of our sins.
Who do you say Jesus is? Assurance of salvation is only afforded to those who know Jesus as Yahweh (Rom 10:9-10). Reference Deut 6:4; Isa 45:23; Phil 2:10-11. That is what it means to be a Christian. You cannot be saved unless Jesus is Yahweh. A finite, created man can not appease the infinite wrath of the infinite God.
This message of merging, while I am sure you are sincere, lacks accuracy. I want the LDS to be saved. I want them to know the assurance of salvation that is found in Christ alone. You do not do it by leading them to believe something that simply is not true.
If you are LDS, search these Scriptures. Read the New Testament. Jesus has to be God. Jesus has to be Yahweh or we are all still in our sins.
Jesus Christ is Yahweh, GOD made flesh! Praise HIS Holy Name!❤️🔥🙏✝️🕊
God Bless you! Thank you for the courage to say the real gospel! ❤
Thanks for introducing me to ‘Leading Saints!’ And I will continue to watch your awesome channel as well!
Great conversation and great topics!
An amazingly wise and intelligent interfaith discussion. Just respect, love and not accusatory. Kind of a rare thing. Very refreshing. Christlike. Wonderful.
The deity of Christ is a fundamental belief in most churches is beyond dispute and non negotiable. I think everyone who has read the bible needs to read the Book of Mormon to know the differences.
Nature of God, nature of man, scripture as an authority, how we are reconciled to God. All of these are non-negotiables.
I don't need to read the b/M or the q'ran or any other book to know the truth from the Bible that Jesus is God and our faith in Him is where we received our salvation.
@@georgebauerschmidt5289 I was directing that to those who might think Mormons could be right or considering the Book of Mormon is of God which if anyone reads it would know it's not and conflicts with the Bible
@@roughcollielover1784 anyone except for those in the cult that can't ever use critical thinking and logic anymore that is
Nothing, per D&C 10:67-68.
We both work diligently to keep all of His commandments.
And we both to come to Christ with all our hearts.
Our approaches may differ some but we’re both doing these things.
This is very comforting to me because it means there are many, many of us together. We never need feel alone.♥️
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect.
God requires perfection to get into heaven. You need the righteousness of God.
Have you kept the commandments perfectly?
@@Elizabeth-rk3do of course not, but that’s what repentance and coming to Christ are for: forgiveness and spiritual rebirth so that I am clean before the final judgment bar. I need this forgiveness over and over and over, but I can work at repenting every day.
@duane9166 Repentance won't be enough.
Imagine someone guilty of serious crimes standing before a judge and saying, "I know that I broke the law, but I'm sorry, I won't do it again."
The judge is still going to sentence him.
When the Evangelicals accept Joseph Smith as a modern-day prophet then a chance would be possible.
will 'pedo' suffice?
Never going to happen, we won’t bow a knee to the pope nor the LDS corporation