I think the different types of resurrected bodies would be a great topic. Russel Nelson brought that back to the forefront of doctrinal consideration last October.
Hi Rodney, we do believe in different resurrected bodies. Not sure if that was a redundant question on your part? There are different degrees of glory that resurrected bodies can inherit, based on the kind of life an individual led and their adherence to God’s commandments. These degrees of glory are referred to as the Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial kingdoms, as well as outer darkness, where only the most wicked are said to reside. This concept is derived from visions recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, one of the church’s scriptures, particularly in section 76.
Pastor Jeff did you discuss what happens when a LDS passed away? I know they go to a place and do “work” until I’m not sure when. Can you help clarify that part?
No one likes to talk about this. D&C 132 is supposed to be the revelation on how to get to the celestial kingdom. It's all about polygamy/ marriage the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. being the only way to get to the celestial kingdom. It's essential to understand LDS beliefs in heaven. It's also a lot of big problems for the LDS church. They have taught very different things depending on what time to are getting instructions on it. It was taught differently from the 70ies to the 90ies then now. And much different from Joseph smith's time. But if you look into the core doctrine it's there. All you have to do is read all of D&C 132 to get a perspective of the doctrine. Joseph Smith and Brigham Youngs teachings have been changed very much overtime. But it used to be one of the core doctrine of the church but now the church has tried to become more mainstream Christian and those things are not talked about as much. One big thing even most members of the LDS church don't like or really know me included growing up LDS. a lot about is polygamy and polyandry that Joseph started before the revelation D&C 132 that was given to Emma. If you read D&C 132 it talks about the new and everlasting covenant of marriage or the law of polygamy. That was a law given to Emma and condemned her if she didn't except Joseph doing polygamy. He was excused of all his sins and Emma condemned even though Joseph had married almost 20 women in secret that Emma didn't know about before he even gave the revelation D&C132. He even remarried a few of them because they were approved of be Emma just to get her to go a long with it.
Latter-Day Saint "Heaven" is deep down the heaven that everyone hopes for. No on wants to admit it because no one wants the "Mormons" to be right but literally no one wants to play a harp, or trumpet, or just sing for eternity. Everyone's soul longs for eternal progression, eternal family, and a relationship with our Heavenly Father where he teaches us to become more and more like him and reach perfection just as he promised many times throughout the OT, NT, BOM & D&C.
I don't know about that, but I will say I don't care for many mainstream Christian doctrines about Hell, especially the Calvinists who believe God predestined people for Hell and they get no say in it. I don't think people should be tortured for all eternity because they just believed the wrong religion, and likely because they were raised in it. Of course, there's a lot of debate and complex doctrine around that, but, at least for a lot of Christians, that's how it is.
This was such a great discussion. As a Latter Day Saint who grew up with evangelical friends in Missouri, it’s so nice that we are finally having these discussions instead of just jumping to conclusions about one another. Thank you Pastor Jeff! You are doing an important work.
I love your conversations. Thank you so much for the spirit you approach all of these questions so that we can all be better and understand each other greater. Much love!! Thank you Jeff!!
Thanks for bridging our worlds. I often get defensive automatically when people start asking about my beliefs and it ends up with both of us feeling misunderstood and hurt. Thank you for being a good example. I'm very grateful. God is good and He loves us all
I believe that the best and highest aspirations about Heaven is to progress to the point we desire to do God's work ourselves, not just live with him. That requires giving life to others and shepherding them through the long developmental process of growth.
@@jeffwaterhouse1116 I actually worry about this too. Pastor Jeff has said that he doesn’t want to get into it with some LDS scholar and I thought that was odd. Why not? Why not speak with someone who is so well versed in ALL scriptures like Halverson? It would be amazing bc Halverson is so thoughtful but yet kind and patient with people as well. It would be absolutely incredible!!
I remember Halverson said that he was all about teaching people who have sincere questions they are wrestling with, but not interested in trying to answer questions that are asked in order to point out disparities or create doubt; pretty much the essence of Jeff's channel. Jeff's not wrestling with questions that he's having a desire to gain more doctrinal understanding about. He's much more interested in pointing out the differences, which to be honest, aren't that big of differences when they're all boiled down. Listening to 52 Churches in 52 Weeks, there was a STARK contrast in desire to learn for the sake of exploring truth in openness.
10:27 it’s not necessarily those who have completed the ordinances like some sort of check box. It’s that the ordinances show us the pattern of what following Christ looks like, and teaches us how to become more like him. As we strive to then keep those covenants to live a particular type of life - ie. a celestial life, doing what Christ would do, we are essentially choosing a celestial glory. And everyone will have a chance to choose that - here or hereafter. Let’s drop the check boxes thing - that’s not what an ordinance is.
No, the ordinances must be done by divine authority and the covenants entered into and fulfilled in order to be prepared to enter into eternal life. A covenant parallel path isn't the same. We want the name brand, not the knockoff brand. The name brand is Jesus and we take his name upon us through His ordinances. We become like him by fulfilling our covenants with him. Elder Christopherson said: "Some might say, “I can make good choices with or without baptism; I don’t need covenants to be an honorable and successful person.” Indeed, there are many who, while not on the covenant path themselves, act in a way that mirrors the choices and contributions of those who are on the path. You might say they reap the blessings of walking a “covenant-consistent” path. What, then, is the difference of the covenant path? Actually, the difference is uniquely and eternally significant. It includes the nature of our obedience, the character of God’s commitment to us, the divine help we receive, the blessings tied to gathering as a covenant people, and most importantly, our eternal inheritance." Why the Covenant Path www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2021/04/54christofferson?id=p8-p9&lang=eng#p8
@@Jdoggyification great comment. The minor point I would add for @maxstooksberry is that someone with autonomy choosing to enter the celestial kingdom will choose to participate in ordinances and make covenants (however that is worked out in the eternal world) and to live a celestial type of life. The scriptures teach us that unless we choose to be transformed into becoming like him, we won’t be able to, nor will we want to behold his glory. There isn’t one without the other.
@@maxstooksberry9458those who had the opportunity to perform the ordinances in this life and chose to do that can be in the celestial kingdom as they continue to choose that quality of life. Those who didn't have the opportunity to perform the ordinances in their life on earth and want to choose to accept them as done by someone else on their behalf can also be in the celestial kingdom. Everyone who is in the celestial kingdom will have done everything God ever told them to do, and if that includes ordinances (which it does) then they will have had those completed one way or another, as ordinances are the sign and proof of the commitment to the relationship on the part of both God and the person or couple. One other way to say it is, no one will be in the celestial kingdom by accident.
@@skylerreddy5436 not just the next life, but this life. The temple pattern is the same pattern that the prophets followed - they entered the presence of the Lord in the flesh and then their objective was to bring the people into the presence of the Lord here and now - think Moses and the children of Israel; Enoch etc. That joy can be here and now, I believe.
Pastor Jeff great job in bridging the divide among the Church and the Protestant doctrines, keep it up, You are a true peacemaker as Pres Nelsons request for all be become: a peace maker a true disciple
I am a practicing Latter Day Saint. This channel has helped me understand Evangelical's point of view, although I haven't had good experiences in the past with them. Which actually caused me great pain as they were close friends of mine. This channel has helped me realize that there is considerable differences but we can respect each other and admire the deep passion for truth and following our faith to draw closer to our Heavenly Father.
I am sorry that you have had so many negative experiences with Evangelicals . Unfortunately the ones that are negative evangelicals makes the rest too f the evangelicals caps look bad. I like this channel very much and has given me hope that there are still people in this earth that can talk and deal gue decently
Well, the eternally pregnant comment, I feel like I can answer that, ask yourself who had the billions of children that have been here and will still come to the earth? I’m not asking that to look down on you. I’m asking you to open up your mind to greater understanding, I would’ve loved to of had 50 children, while I was here upon the Earth, but it was not given to me to do that, children are a blessing, not a curse. Have a beautiful life.
GEOGRAPHY: There can place it on earth. You see maps in the Bible and geography can be placed and documented. You don’t have geography for the Book of Mormon because there is no real-world setting. It cannot be placed. PEOPLES & EMPIRES: The peoples and Empires listed in the bible have been well established by archaeology, written records and history but there is no evidence of the peoples and empires listed in the Book of Mormon. There is simply no trace anywhere. Is it possible for the three enormous empires that flourished in the America’s to leave absolutely no trace? Any Archaeologist will say this is not possible. CITIES: Thirty-eight cities mentioned-none have ever been found. No Mormon cities have been located by using the Book of Mormon as a guide. Archaeologists have never successfully used the Book of Mormon as a guide in locating any ancient ruins. Leading archeological researchers not only have repudiated the claims of the Book of Mormon as to the existence of those civilizations, but have amassed much evidence to show the impossibility of the accounts given in the Mormon bible. Many times, Mormons will cite how the Smithsonian Institute backs up their claims. The following is an official statement made by the Smithsonian in 1979: "The Smithsonian Institution has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archaeologists see no connection between the archaeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book." PLANTS & ANIMALS: We see the wrong types of plants and animals in the Book of Mormon. For example, the Book of Mormon states horses were used in great battles involving chariots, yet horses were never in the America’s at this time. There is no evidence of horses in Central and North America before the Spaniards arrived (hundreds of years after the Book of Mormon). METALLURGY & WRITINGS: "Steel" and "iron" are mentioned several times in the Book of Mormon. No evidence has been found in the Americas of iron being hardened to make "steel" in ancient times. Even though ancient Andean people smelted some metals, such as copper, they never smelted iron like they did in the Old World .... Metals were used for a variety of tools in the Old World, such as weapons, while in the Americas, metals were used as prestige goods for the wealthy elite. It is said the Nephites were a culture of writings. Now a culture with writings leaves records, yet there is zero evidence of any writings. An empire that last 1,000 years and claims to be a culture of writings that produced thousands of plates and records should easily be found via archaeology, yet nothing has been found. DNA EVIDENCE: The Mormon church claims that the ancient inhabitants of the Americas (Indians) descended from the Jews. Genetic evidence shows the Indians can be traced exclusively to Asia. ANCIENT MANUSCRIPTS: To support the bible, there are over 40,000 ancient manuscripts to support it. There is manuscript evidence almost 2,000 years old supporting the New Testament and over 2,000 years old supporting the Old Testament. The Book of Mormon has ZERO ancient manuscripts to back it up, yet it is criticizing the bible as being unreliable when the bible has over 40,000 ancient manuscripts to support it. LANGUAGES: According to the Book of Mormon, the languages spoken by the first people to live in the America’s were Hebrew and Egyptian. If this were true, at least some of the native American languages should contain words which clearly show this origin. English has thousands of words which contain Greek and Latin roots. After two thousand years these roots still show the influences of Greek and Latin. If the Book of Mormon is correct, many Indian words should contain Hebrew and Egyptian roots. Many English words come to us from Spanish, French and Germanic languages. Hebrew and Egyptian words, however, are not found in any of the Indian languages. REFORMED EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPHICS: Any linguist other than Mormon linguist will tell you they never heard of Reformed Egyptian. The reason any mainstream linguist doesn’t have anything to say about it is because it is a fictional language. Book of Mormon was supposedly translated from "reformed Egyptian." Nothing on the western hemisphere has ever been found that even remotely resembles Egyptian. Officially "reformed Egyptian" doesn't exist. Think about it: the LDS church says that these ancient people in middle America were Jews who came over from Palestine. The last language that any Jew would write in would be Egyptian. The Hebrew language is one of the purest languages of all time. They surely would have written any of their history in Hebrew as they did in the Old Testament. Dr. A. H. Sayce of Oxford, England wrote: "It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith's impudent fraud. His facsimile from the Book of Abraham No. 2 is an ordinary hypocephalus, but the hieroglyphics upon it have been copied so ignorantly that hardly one of them is correct". James H. Breasted, Ph.D., Egyptologist, Haskell Oriental Museum, University of Chicago wrote: “These three facsimiles of Egyptian documents in the ‘Pearl of Great Price' depict the most common objects in the Mortuary religion of Egypt. Joseph Smith's interpretations of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization.” COINS: The Bible and the Book of Mormon describe a coinage system. There have been thousands of coins to support the bible dating back to the 1st century. Nothing has ever been found to support the Book of Mormon. Also, metallic coins were never used in ancient America. PLAGIARISM: The Book of Mormon Contains plagiarism from King James Version-25,000 words taken verbatim from the King James Version of the Bible. There are 19 complete chapters copied word-for-word from the Bible. The Book of Mormon was supposedly written 1,200 years before the King James Version was published, so how is this possible? WARFARE: The bible gives numerous accounts of battles involving spears, chariots and places these battles took places and evidence, written records and artifacts have proven these battles to be true. There is zero evidence to support the Book of Mormon. TEMPLES: Lehi stated he built a temple and constructed it after the manner of King Solomon. Temples in the bible have been found to support the bible and no temple has ever been found to support the Book of Mormon. Jews are not allowed to erect a temple anywhere other than Mount Moriah. The Book of Mormon clearly identifies Lehi as a descendent of Joseph and he appoints his two sons to serve in the Temple they had built. The men who serve in the Holy Temple are all dependents of Aaron. The Book of Mormon claim poses a problem because appointing priest who are not Aaronic Levites was expressly forbidden in the Old Testament and yet the Book of Mormon claims to uphold the Old testament laws. HISTORICAL FIGURES: In the bible we have evidence to support that ancient historical figures existed like Jesus, Daniel, Moses, Peter, Isaiah, Paul, King David, etc., but there is no evidence that any Mormon prophet ever existed. There is no evidence that Jesus Christ of the bible is the Jesus Christ of the Book of Mormon. I cannot understand how archaeological evidence and textual evidence would point in the historical reality of Christ in Palestine and yet be entirely lost in the Book of Mormon. THE HILL OF CUMORAH: The biggest evidence against the Mormon Church is that is does not have a major archaeological dig at the current Hill Cumorah in New York state. Today Archaeologists use some of the most cutting-edge techniques before they even get out their shovels. Remote-sensing methods have allowed scientists to find hidden sites and objects, from Egyptian pyramids to the burial site of Richard III. We have Hi-Tech Mapping using Ground-Penetrating radar, high-resolution magnetometers, and other state-of-the-art remote-sensing equipment can find anything if it is under the dirt! The Book of Mormon claims that there were STEEL swords, spears, shields, armor, horses etc. in abundance present in this great battle. According to the Book of Mormon, at least 230,000 men died in battle at the Hill Cumorah. Also, this battle was about 1/10 the size of the battle which took place at the same location approximately 1,000 years earlier when, according to Ether 15:2 "nearly two million" of the Jaredites had their last great battle. In theory this site should be a gold mine of easy-to-find archaeological evidence. Don’t you think if the Mormon Church or any Professional Archaeological Organization that was heavily funded with the most modern technology in the world, could find at least one little archaeological find at the Hill Cumorah?
Pastor Jeff's description starting at the 19:28 of Moses entering back into the covenant relationship with God that was established with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is exactly what we as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do. Pastor Jeff explains, "Moses went up to Mt. Sinai. He is experiencing the presence of God. He (God) establishes His laws with His people. He wants Moses to build a place where His presence will dwell, because He desires to be with us." As saints, going to the House the Lord (the temple) is exactly as Pastor Jeff describes. We go there to enter into and remember our convenantal relationship with Him (His laws) and to be in His presence and build our relationship with Him.
This is the first video that I have seen where Pastor Jeff finally expresses himself in a Christlike manner. I really like the patience He displayed towards his guest. I enjoyed his explanation of his understanding of the scriptures. Which is so close to the beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I have often watched his videos and been truly frustrated at his lack of understanding when it comes to LDS cultural beliefs versus revealed doctrine. Many Christians, Catholics and even members of the church of Jesus Christ have their own guesses about things that have never been revealed. These things cannot not be viewed or understood as our doctrine unless they are written into our scriptures or spoken by more than one prophet at a General Conference. Or signed as a declaration by the current apostles, and the first presidency of the church. Everything else that one hears about our beliefs or culture is just a group interpretation of or individuals interpretation of those statements or scriptures.
I’m a Latter-day Saint and I feel like David is playing down our unique doctrines to make us more in line with mainstream Christianity. We need to embrace what makes us different
Just a quick comment on a statement from David about God letting us have a thrill from mortality in heaven (in the form of marriage) I think it’s the other way around. Family and marriage is the order, societal organization, of heaven. So, to prepare us for that and to give us a taste of its sweetness, He organizes us in families here.
I loved Randy Acorn’s book *Heaven*. I read it before I converted from an evangelical to a Latter-day Saint. It actually opened my mind up to some of the possibility that are out of the conventional “Heaven” box as understood by mainstream Christian’s. I think it dovetails beautifully with my Latter-day Saint beliefs.
I thought this was a good conversation. As a Latter-day Saint I am so thankful to know that my marriage will last forever. It is partly through God-ordained marriage that we practice being one, and it is meant to last forever. There is a reason the endowment is similar to a coronation. It's interesting that Russian Orthodox weddings hold crowns over the heads of those being married. When we are married and having children we are trying to be like our Heavenly Father.
Luke 20:28-36 [28] They posed this question: “Teacher, Moses gave us a law that if a man dies, leaving a wife but no children, his brother should marry the widow and have a child who will carry on the brother’s name. [29] Well, suppose there were seven brothers. The oldest one married and then died without children. [30] So the second brother married the widow, but he also died. [31] Then the third brother married her. This continued with all seven of them, who died without children. [32] Finally, the woman also died. [33] So tell us, whose wife will she be in the resurrection? For all seven were married to her!” [34] Jesus replied, “Marriage is for people here on earth. [35] But in the age to come, those worthy of being raised from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. [36] And they will never die again. In this respect they will be like angels. They are children of God and children of the resurrection.
Your marriage won't last forever. If you want your own planet, you will have to accept lots of other women to be wives of your husband. Sure, you will probably continue to be merely one of them. Is that OK with you?
We have definitely been taught by “prophets” that we will have powers, principalities, & dominions. And yes we have been told we would create worlds. And polygamy IS a MUST in the celestial realm. Please know this coming from a life long member. But that’s ending for me. 🎉 Jesus Saves! NOT TEMPLES like we are taught, I mean this is an addition to the atonement which we do believe in, but the temple is an addition which is explicitly stated by Jesus as a warning. I’m team listen and believe Jesus’s words.
“As man now is, God once was: “As God now is, man may be.” -Lorenzo Snow You could extrapolate this into Godhood, and that makes a lot of sense to me, but either way it's gonna be great.
"Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life." Athanasius also observed: "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." An early trinitarian father used to have more sense than the trinnies today. :>)
@@godsoffspring4195 Way to take Athanasius out of context there, chief. The Greek word that is used in the catechism for "deified" is "theopoiethomen", meaning participation. You would have to show the early church fathers consistently taught that man could become God in the sense that Mormonism believes. You simply can't.
@@BrendonKing ... All the Gods participate perfectly. They are ONE. In fact... the Godhead is the perfect example of that. So... when we too become one with them... just like Jesus is one with His Father( see John 17:21-23).. we become the gods we were created to be in the eternal Family of God. Got milk Brendon?? :>)
I welcome Pastor Jeff sharing his beliefs with the LDS audience. I don't see his vlog as insincere; rather, he genuinely seeks to understand Latter-day Saint perspectives before sharing his own. His honest effort to grasp our views is rare among Evangelicals, who often remain firmly entrenched in their own beliefs. It's fair to allow him to share his beliefs once he has demonstrated genuine understanding of ours.
Then why did Jeff say on another video that he is not looking to know if The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS is true or not...that he is not going to pray to receive a confirmation of it's veracity? What then is the point of trying to understand the Church?
@@yunginspirit3162I think he also believes that that’s not how you receive truth. And he’s backed up his belief with scripture. I appreciate him wanting to befriend LDS for the sake of knowing and loving the people
The main thing people need to remember with this and all videos is this is a Pastor talking to a member of the church who does podcasts and write books but is NOT a spokesman for the church. It is his opinions. And if he wants to word stuff to make him feel less peculiar thats fine. However, the scriptures are plain. We will be joint heirs with Christ. We will have ALL the Father has.
David Butler is my favorite!! He teaches the scriptures in a way that really resonates with my way of learning!! I am on my 5th year of following his TH-cam Channel, "Don't Miss This"!! I started watching "Don't Miss This" the last time we were studying The Book of Mormon as a Church. Then I went through The Doctrine & Covenants, The Old Testament, and then The New Testament last year, and now this year back to The Book of Mormon. Jeff, I really still wish that you would continue to read & PRAY about The Book of Mormon, and start watching David's videos about it!! I learn so much from David's videos!! But the ONLY way you will ever know if it is true is through The Holy Ghost, who bears witness of all truth!! And the only way that will happen is through SINCERE READING & PRAYER & ASKING!! It starts with a desire to want to know!!!
...it makes sense that you would feel this way as you are coming form an LDS view. Outside of the LDS belief system, Christians don't pray to know if a book or artifact is true. They pray for wisdom! James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." James encourages us to pray for wisdom! If you continue reading in James he says, "...the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy." James 3:17 We do pray of course for guidance and wisdom, but we always cross check our feelings with the Bible. If we only go on our feelings only, we might be mislead. "The heart is deceitful above all things..." Jeremiah 17:9 For example, if a couple said they prayed and felt the spirit tell them they should start having sex before they are married, you might say no! that's not the Holy Spirit. How would you know this? Because it is contrary to what the Bible/scriptures teaches us. But if they prayed and the Spirit told them, shouldn't they do it? Most Christians would reference the Bible as their source for God's truth. So, how do we know the Bible is true? We believe the Bible because it is a reliable collection of historical documents, written by eye witnesses and other witnesses of eye witnesses of the supernatural events that took place in fulfillment of prophecy. How do we know it's a reliable collections of historical documents? There are over 5,000 Greek manuscripts and 10,000 Latin manuscripts of the New Testament, . The Tanakh (Old Testament) we have hundreds of manuscripts, the Dead Sea Scrolls being the most commonly sited. With all of these manuscripts, we can see with amazing clarity what words were used and determine their accuracy. This is why no one prays to know if the Bible is true. I hope this might shed some light as to why someone outside of your church might not feel it necessary to just pray about the Book of Mormon.
@@BGCflyerWe pray for wisdom as well?😊 James 1:5 as you know is "our scripture " that is loved most dearly by our people. It leads us to seek for wisdom always. It would lead someone like Joseph Smith to do that very thing. But anyone seeking to know if The Book of Mormon were a second witness of Jesus Christ would have to be humble and child-like enough in spirit to seek and find out for themselves.
Is not wisdom found in ALL subjects of Gods scriptures? each of us have gifts that many others don’t, just as the body has arms, legs, head, feet, belly.. wisdom is a gift from God, yet only Father, Christ and Holy Ghost are all encompassing of wisdom, we as mortals are given parts, our part, like the feet, like the hands, like the head, yet here again Ppl limit Gods ability for us to understand his blessing and knowledge he’s prepared for us, if we are true and faithful. Job 37: 16 16 Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?
I have been a Hello Saints follower from rhe beginning. I enjoy these videos a lot. However, I have realized there is a growing frustration in me as I continue to watch. I now realize that the frustration comes from the format. Pastor Jeff, it is one thing to ask a Latter-day Saint about what we believe about heaven and a completely different thing to read the source. We believe that Jesus Christ spoke through Joseph Smith as a prophet. Please read the words of an all knowing all powerful God and then discuss that. I now get anxious with every video where the ideas are discussed and (what we consider) the words of God are ignored. Please read D&C 76 and see what God had to say on this subject. Go to D&C 88 and see what God said about how the law we live affects the kingdom we inherit. The people you talk with may have good explanations and may state things well, but I don't think they would even want to compare their explanations to God's. Please please please adapt your format to go back to reading the scriptures. Then discuss after.
...so I agree that I liked it when he was reading the scriptures and then commenting. Would you say the final authority of God's truth is in the scriptures? or in Church leadership?
@@BGCflyer Wow. This is interesting for me. I have rarely (maybe 3 times) commented online. And I have never had someone move the conversation forward. So BGCflyer I think this is a great and insightful question. I think it is asking at the root of what this channel is about. And why I have watched every video. Where do we find God's truth? And how you asked it was really good as well, where is the "final authority" on God's truth? So here is my humble opinion: There are a few core beliefs that all of this is built on. First, that there is a God. Second, that he knows all things. Third, that he is good/righteous; specifically, the belief that he would/could never lie. So, if God actually knows all things and would/could never lie then anything that he says can be trusted 100%. It has to be truth. And a person can build the best life on that truth, so it is vital to learn it. So, to specifically answer your question I would say that anything we have that has God’s actual words is the final authority of God’s truth (known as the Word of God or God's Word). Now this is easy when the words are coming out of God’s mouth. That is obviously his words and can be relied on 100% as truth. But can he also send an angel to speak exactly the words God would say or wants said? Or can he have a prophet say his words? Can he have someone like Moses tell a story like the freeing of the children of Israel and that story be what he wants to tell us? There are lots of scriptures that indicate that the answer is Yes. But this is where it gets more difficult and this is where people get divided. And in the end, this is where many will find out that they have been deceived. This will be the ultimate blind-side hit that will take place for many. Many will be beyond shocked and stunned and will be in disbelief that what they thought, No, what they KNEW was true, was not. Christ himself explains this in the Sermon on the Mount (God’s own words out of his mouth). Matthew 7:22:23 “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me ye that work iniquity.” This is why this is the most serious of topics. Christ is saying there will be many who thought they were doing his work and serving him but he will show them that they were leading people astray and what they were actually doing was taking people away from him. So, we will all be held accountable, in the most ultimate of ways, for what we believe is truth and is the Word of God. Some will find out that they succeeded and actually knew God and he knew them. Others will find out that they were wrong and deceived. This is where the final component comes in: The spirit. I think the spirit makes all the difference. If you read something that claims to be the Words of God and you will be held accountable for how you receive it, then you have to follow the spirit. That is why I think it is more important for them to read the scriptures than to discuss the beliefs found in those scriptures. We will all stand before God one day and be held accountable for everything we did in this life. If someone reads D&C 76 or D&C 88 instead of just talking about the concepts held in them, they have to determine if they believe that these are actually words of God or not. They have to listen to the spirit and follow it or not. That is the essence of our religion. We believe these things not because someone taught us the doctrine but because we believe they are the Word of God. Because we read them and the spirit told us of their truth. And in the end, we will stand before God and find out if we followed the spirit and what it told us was truth or if we were deceived. So to answer your question more precisely: I think the final authority on God’s Truth is God’s Word confirmed to us by his spirit. (Wow, that ended up as a little discourse. I thought I was just going to hurry and reply.)
@@ryanegbert ...Ryan, that was an excellent reply. Very thoughtful and sincere. I would agree with you that scripture confirmed by the Holy Spirit is the final authority as to God's truth. So how do we determine that a writing is scripture? How do we know what we are reading is reliable and historical?
@@BGCflyer Again, an excellent question. I am fascinated with this discussion. And again, here is my opinion. I think (as crazy as it might sound to some) that something being reliable and historical doesn’t matter at all. This is a matter of faith. Evidence is not required. Does something from God have to have historical and reliable evidence for its existence? What if there is no reliable and historical evidence, does that mean that it is no longer of or from God? Does God have to provide and maintain historical and reliable evidence along with his word to verify it? So, I think it is up to us, through using the spirit, to determine whether something is of God or not. And in the end, we will all be judged on how we did. In the end, we will all find out whether what we believed was the word of God (and our interpretation of it) was actually his words or whether we deceived ourselves. light knows light. Truth knows truth. I think of the story of Vincenzo Di Francesca. He found a book with no name. He knew of no evidence of its historical veracity or the reliability of it. But he read it. Felt it was of God. Then prayed and felt that the spirit confirmed it was of God. Then acted in accordance with that belief that he had found new scripture. You can see his story here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincenzo_Di_Francesca (I highly recommend it). In the end, if I believe God has confirmed to me that something is scripture or of him I don’t need evidence from man that it is historically accurate or reliable. If I had an answer through the spirit from God what more evidence do I need?
Ryan, your thoughts are absolutely profound. At this point in time very little is known about what actually takes place in the three heavens. Let's stick with what has been revealed and not get caught up in wild imaginations.
There’s a great LDS Author who used to be a devout Baptist. His Book “Mr Mormon” John S Pennington Uses a great analogy. Of a Football field and 3 degrees of glory. He suggests that anyone on the field is in heaven. There are different parts of the field though. A quarterback is going to be spending a lot of time and have more responsibility than some other players on the field. How much time and responsibility you want dictates where you are on the field. Not completely a “apples to apples” comparison but it’s a decent one.
26:49 reminds me of one of my favorite song "Jesus, joy of man's desiring", from my favorite musician Johann Sebastian Bach who one said: "The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul."
I’m sorry to say this, but as a Latter Day Saint, I don’t think our follow brother David did a great job of representing church teachings on these subjects. There isn’t as much uncertainty and division as he would make it seem. Although we know very little still of the afterlife, the gospel is very clear in these matters for what we do know, and the prophets and apostles have given additional clarification which can be viewed as scripture.
I agree! I think Pastor Jeff should now have this same conversation with Emily Freeman or Brad Wilcox. I think they can explain much more clearly the Church's stand on these gospel truths!
Listen to Pres Oaks recent talk on what defines core doctrine. You may realize it’s not nearly as descriptive nor prescriptive as you may perceive. David distinguished well between what may be scripture vs what may be doctrine. They are not one and the same.
@@marnold2777not all scripture necessarily constitutes as doctrine, but all doctrine is addressed in one way or another in the scriptures, i.e. the standard works. As members of the Church, we tend to use the word scripture almost as vaguely as we use the word heaven.
Agreed. David is playing his part of LDS TH-cam apologist well by avoiding and deflecting hard questions like men becoming gods, polygamy in heaven, and other harder topics. The church is trying to become just another denomination of Christianity and is distancing itself from what it teaches. However growing up these were things taught openly and proudly. I was told I would become a god. Period. This is doctrine because it was taught by prophets. Stop denying this is what is taught.
@@stephtimms1776 Yeah, but the scientist and the scholars aren’t saying they’re getting their wisdom from God and claiming that God told them. A prophet and a scientist or two different things.
Adam and Eve were joined in marriage before they fell. Would that not indicate the intended purpose for an eternal marriage? Why not join them after the fall if marriage was only a temporally ordained union? Adam and Eve freely enjoyed God’s presence *while* being married prefall. Marriage will not replace a fulfilling relationship with God. It’s not a replacement, it’s a *gift* from Him for our enjoyment, and growth.
It seems strange that we would follow a pattern of family here, but not in heaven. I do not lose anything between my parents and I because I got married. It enriches our family. The furtherance of the family brings joy and glory. My kids are my glory, my grandkids will be additional glory.
...that's a valid point that they were man and wife in the Garden of Eden. Coming from an Evangelical perspective here. When we look at the truths taught in the Bible, they need to be consistently true throughout the entire Bible, not just in one verse here or there. So, I think the problem is that Jesus said there will be no marriage after this life in the resurrection, "Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." Matt 22:28-30 Jesus was answering the question: to whom will the woman be married? There is no differentiating between sealing for eternity. Even Jesus says, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the POWER of GOD. So, it wouldn't be consistent with the Bible to say there is marriage after this life, since, we will ALL be resurrected right! That doesn't mean we won't be with our loved ones. If I'm in the presence of God and so is my wife and children, then we ARE together!
Jesus Christ said that no one will be married in heaven. The only marriage will be that of Christ to his bride the church. Revelation 19:6-9 Are you looking forward to being married to Christ?
@@BGCflyer I’ll explain how I read this chapter… The Sadducees didn’t believe in a Resurrection… they didn’t know the power of God (nor the scriptures) because they denied this very crucial aspect of the Plan of Redemption. Even by saying people “die” they were missing the point. Jesus says that God is a God of the living, not the dead. They haven’t died. They have merely crossed the veil. Because the Sadducees didn’t believe in this very fundamental aspect, their level of questioning was insincere.. They were trying to trip Jesus up. They didn’t care about the nature of marriage in an afterlife because from where they stood, there was no afterlife. If we reread the verses just prior to this when the Sadducees were pulling apart the levirate marriage contract (when a woman is passed from brother to brother when one of them dies… thus providing her with protection when her primary husband has died. This being a cultural practice)… the verbiage indicates no new contracts are made in the Resurrection. It doesn’t actually say marriage won’t exist. It’s saying no future unions will occur. “Neither marry nor given in marriage.” The sealing keys given to Peter bind that which is on earth in heaven. That which is bound can also be unbound by that same priesthood power. Eternal marriages need to be bound by God’s authority before the Resurrection. When they are bound under this proper authority, they will be recognized in heaven. For Latter-day Saints, these sealing keys are given to God’s living Prophet today (as they were given to Peter in Christ’s day) and are utilized in the Lord’s Holy house-the temple. I understand why Matthew 22 is a sticking point for evangelicals on this issue. To ignore the union of Adam and Eve pre-fall, however, is just de-emphasizing what God originally did. I don’t think Adam and Eve’s transgression was enough to thwart God’s intended will. I believe God made a way for it to be a possibility despite their transgression and subsequent transition into a fallen world. He made it possible through the sealing keys! I don’t disagree with the deeply intimate relationship we will have with Christ as the bridegroom and we, the Church, as His bride. The symbolism is impactful and powerful… especially for those who suffer in marriages where abuse occurs. We are assured that not even Christ will commit such atrocities, nor will He ever abandon us. And that our union with Him will be incredibly fulfilling. 100% I believe this. I don’t view eternal marriages as something to replace this relationship at all. Just as much as I don’t think my current marriage is a replacement for my personal relationship with Christ now. I believe marriage is a *gift* given by God to help us progress and become what He knows we can become.
@@jlewis8145 I wrote a comment above. Eternal marriage with a spouse doesn’t replace our eternal marriage to Christ (which is incredibly symbolic of the type of relationship we will have with Him in the eternities). It’s not a replacement nor really a direct comparison. Eternal marriage is a gift. My marriage now doesn’t replace my relationship with Christ today any more than it will in heaven.
We are looking forward to Christ's return in glory and dwelling with Him on earth in the New Jerusalem (Zion). Heaven is the firmament/dome above us...and actually there are heavens.
In the LDS community, we’re still navigating how to balance embracing new revelations in this restoration era while staying true to the core doctrines largely shared amongst Christianity. Sometimes, we can get overly enthusiastic about modern revelations, which if we’re not careful, we may overextend beyond our foundational doctrine in Christ. I agree with David, that it’s more the cultural mythology/zeitgeist that causes this to happen both inside and outside the church. Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon suggests that prophets might be limited in the revelations they share because we haven’t fully grasped what we’ve already been given. These respectful interfaith discussions encourage us to solidify our shared beliefs and unite across denominations in unexpected ways. I personally didn’t realize that the promised gathering of Israel would be such an interdenominational endeavor but now it seems obvious that it would be that way. Keep up the great work Pastor Jeff!
Building bridges between happy Christians! Jesus Christ is thrilled, I’m sure! All done in love, charity, and genuine integrity. Walk across the Bridge of humanity and engage, be friends and enjoy one another’s company! There is much to be gained for all concerned. Amen!
@@Sirach144 Would you then say that what pastor Jeff is doing is mixing with false believers by having these discussions? And that this is going against the bible? It just seems to me this is a good thing. I have a hard time believing that this isn't something that God would want to see his children doing. Perhaps you could expound more on your biblical understanding on this.
@@kenhuntley6575 Discussion isn’t the same thing as worshipping together and just trying to be harmonious. Paul and Jesus called out false religions and even debated people.
@@Sirach144 - do you mind sharing your faith or denomination of religion? Are you a Latter Day Saint?? Just curious, for the record. You see, I am a Christian. I have been all my life. Yes, I was baptized at 3 weeks old (that’s a BIG CLUE!). I was raised in a Christian household, was taught to pray, to read the Bible, and to imitate Jesus Christ on this earth. My parents raised me to respect others: people of different ethnic backgrounds, different religions, different socio-economic status, babies, children, elders, the aged and afflicted, physically challenged, all of humanity! They taught me ALL of the commandments, especially to love my neighbor as myself. Just what does that mean to you??? They taught me to be charitable to my neighbors and to those I do not know! What does that mean to you??? What Bible do you read? What scripture teaches you to separate yourselves from others??? Gosh, even Mother Theresa (a Catholic Nun!), gave food, love, dignity and shelter to the suffering and dying (most of which were Hindus!). Do you believe Mother Theresa was imitating Jesus and His commandment? So what again is your definition of a Christian??? Let’s get it right, okay?!
@@kenhuntley6575 - unless otherwise noted, and I am proud to acknowledge, I am Christian (my belief) and I am Catholic (means universal) which is my faith. In my church, I am allowed to partake of the Sacrament of Communion (the Eucharist). In my faith, I am allowed to go to other churches, and denominations, to visit and to worship, but I’m not allowed to take the Sacrament of Communion except in a Catholic Church. I honor that. Likewise anyone is welcome to come to a Catholic Church to visit and experience the worship style (called the Liturgy), but cannot take the Holy Communion unless a confirmed, professed Catholic. People are often born into a faith, whether Jew, Christian, etc., or they convert. We all have the right to our preferred faith, our professed belief and still want to be friends with those that might worship, pray, believe slightly differently than we do. The greatest thing is to be able to sit down at a table, share a meal and break bread together with respect for others. It’s called loving one another!
This guy laughing off the doctrine of becoming a god over other planets is sad. That is what we've all been taught. He's afraid of what we actually believe, trying to soften our doctrine.
What!? Idk what you’ve been taught lol but the exaltation doctrine is not so cut & dry and there’s much speculation that we don’t definitively know / and will not know until we receive the rest of it on the Lord’s timing. However , I do think this brother beat around the bush instead of being truthfully honest/blunt
I liked David’s response when asked about saving ordinances. Saving ordinances mean nothing if not preceded by faith and repentance. David also alluded to Christ’s atonement being the foundation of our salvation. It is tiresome to hear people accuse us of being a works-based religion.
@@natedawg2020 I have heard Christians accuse members of the COJCOLDS of believing in works-based salvation, and as I have studied with the elders and sisters missionaries, I can see that this is an unfair accusation. However, what the missionaries have described to me is a works-based righteousness, as in: one’s own obedience makes one righteous. I asked them point blank, and they said your righteousness is based on your own work of obedience. Is that what you are saying? Do you understand it differently? As an orthodox Christian, I believe that it was *Jesus’** obedience that makes me righteous, and He offers me His righteousness as a free gift. It’s called “imputed righteousness” and is based on belief. The missionaries have described to me an analogy that we will go to the heaven that we are appropriately dressed for, we would not feel comfortable being over- or under-dressed. I believe Jesus has gifted me His own righteous attire, Isaiah 61:10 says “10I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness” When I say that I trust in Jesus, I mean that I trust not only His example of how to live, but I also trust in the work He did for me vicariously as my substitute. It’s called “The Great Exchange” - he took my sin and gave me His righteousness. Romans 5:17-19, 9:30-10: 17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so **by the obedience of one** shall many be made righteous. 30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about ** to establish their own righteousness** have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 2 Corinthians 5:21 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. Does that help you understand at all what a Christian might mean by “works-based religion”? Is there a better way we could say the same thing, but cause less offense? Is there anything you’d like me to understand better or differently about this topic from the perspective of a member of the COJCOLDS?
Pastor Jeff…i would love to see you speak to converts to the Church. My family were generational Methodists. We were ready for the Gospel restoration story and immediately embraced it when I was 16. I would love give you the converts perspective and understanding of the Church
When the Latter Day Saint person talked about the celestial room in the temple where we have pierced the veil and get a taste of gods presence. When I went through the temple to receive my endowments in 1999 I thought the celestial room was pretty but I didn’t feel this overwhelming sense of Gods presence, it just felt like any other room.
I’m always interested in these types of persecution comments when every single LDS missionary tells me to my face that my faith is inferior to their faith. Please I’m suggesting that you have respect for the beliefs of others.
@@Zeett09 i don’t think you understand what I was trying to say, what I meant is that whenever someone not of my religion (LDS) finds out I’m LDS they make assumptions and judge based on media and false information. I respect all beliefs and don’t look down on other religions.
@@Strawberry_shark don’t get me wrong I think highly of LDS people in general but every single LDS person tells me my Catholic baptism is invalid and “unauthorized”. I would never say that about any other faith. I get it you believe my faith is inferior to your faith. I just do not believe that. I have never thought nor will I ever think that the LDS faith is inferior to my faith. I wish the LDS faith would be equally respectful.
Please let those in the Middle East today. Know how you were persecuted. You don’t know what persecution is. Have you ever seen someone’s head cut off? That’s persecution. Not calling out false beliefs. I guess Jesus was a persecutor of false believes and Paul.
This was a great conversation. One thing I would humbly add is that the idea of heaven being a restoration of the Garden conditions where humans were in the presence of God is correct, but in Evangelical views this is ignoring the simple fact that when God created that initial place, he placed man and woman together in an immortal state, or in other words to live together forever because it was not good for man (or woman) to be alone. They are meant to be one. We are so sure of our individuality that we don't understand that the greatest reward of Heaven is not meant for individuals, but for unions... for individuals that are able to reach past their selfish, ego centered boundary of existence to unify with others. A couple like Adam and Eve are the prototype of the unit that presents itself as a selfless being (two made one) into the presence of God. The eternal companionship of sealed couple is not two people, but one in Christ.
Latter-day Saints: (5 - Heavenly Kingdoms of Glory) ☀️ Celestial (high) ☀️ Celestial (mid) ☀️ Celestial (low) 🌙 Terrestial ✨ Telestial Other Christians: (5 - Heavenly Crowns of Glory) 👑 Incorruptible 👑 Rejoicing 👑 Glory 👑 Righteousness 👑 Life Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Just as other Christians believe we will receive 5 heavenly crowns of glory at the Judgment Seat of Christ, Latter-day Saints believe we will receive 5 heavenly kingdoms of glory. Whether we view these awards Kingdoms, Crowns, Mansions, Inheritance, or our glory that glorifies the Father. We are really talking about variance of the same thing. Latter-day Saints and Christians can come together as one when we can open our minds to the reality that everyone is just trying to make sense out of all these things. Joseph Smith revealed that our awards will be based on the condition of ones heart, opening the door to all mankind.
Only one kingdom. Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Speaking to the idea of traditional Christianity having a 'truncated' view or understanding of what comes after (or even before) this mortal life, I like an analogy of maps of the world from Europeans before they learned about the American continent - not necessarily inaccurate for what it shows, but not the whole picture. And that by missing the whole picture, it leads to applying aspects of the plan that are about parts beyond the map, to parts that are on this incomplete map. And that may also affect the way we interpret aspects of what we do see, because we don't have the full context
…I like your analogy using maps. I think truth is when the actual earth and the map are in complete agreement. So, how do you know if a map is accurate?
Please elaborate. Your view of heaven doesn’t align with what Jesus said. Anything in your religion necessarily has to 100% be supported by the Bible. You believe you will be with not just your earthly wife and family but potentially many more (because that’s how Joseph’s Myth liked to roll) and rule over kingdoms. Jesus said in Matthew 22:30 “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." Please make this make sense. Two completely incongruent statements. One from the Bible, the second completely opposed to it.
when the Bible says "God created the heavens and the earth," the reason they used that phrase is that there is no Hebrew word for universe. It's NOT establishing demarcation of what we think of as heaven (where God is and where we are) , but it basically means everything in the universe that is NOT earth.
@kylehansen639 There is nothing in the Bible that differentiates heaven in the context of everything above earth and the heaven where God dwells except for expressions such as "heaven heaven" and the "third heaven", only non Biiblical interpretations exist to suggest that the heaven God exists in is different from the one we refer to as "outer space" in modern terms. As for your other question about matter being eternal, that is supported by the law of Conservation of Matter, which teaching that matter can not be created nor destroyed but changed from one form to another. The law of Conservation of Energy is the same but applies to energy. As for the question of whether God has a body of flesh and bones, yes, did you not read the New Testament? Jesus has a body of flesh and bones. I'm confused as to how you find that confusing if you believe Jesus is God.
Your guest is being dishonest about LDS beliefs and teachings . When pushed , Mormons often tend to back away from their positions , because even they are every uncomfortable with them . “ Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000.” LDS prophet Spencer W Kimball 1975 general conference
This is the best you can find for someone from the Church to explain heaven, he was clueless. One who knows will not track from one thought to another so incoherently. When I was reading Peter and Peter wrote about the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and this was before I had read the Doctrine and Covenants, I received the revelation at that time that was revealed to Joseph Smith in the 88th section of the Doctrine and Covenants
He's not clueless. He may have interpreted the question differently initially, explaining the variety of possible answers instead of just the afterlife kind of heaven, but he's not wrong (except we do believe we can literally become like God: becoming gods ourselves, creating worlds, eternal posterity). He has also mentioned he has ADHD, and at least for me, that involves some difficulty keeping your thoughts straight, especially when being asked questions on the fly with answers expected immediately. Not everybody is polished and perfect, and that's important to recognize. It doesn't diminish the accuracy of his explanations. If you watch his Don't Miss This podcast, he's more polished and I love how he explains things and teaches them.
I evacuated the lds church because nobody could answer the real questions. The answers I did receive did not provide any assurance. I am still finding all the puzzle pieces in the Bible, which completely checks out btw. I recommend that pastor Jeff and any person from the mormon church he interviews should read James R Spencer's books, whether on mormonism or the temple. The truth is childlike simple. Truth without love is too hard but love without truth is too soft. My dear brothers and sisters still in the lds church, l love you and I encourage you, you must be born again to enter heaven... The holy spirit comes by faith. He cannot be confirmed on you with false authority. Read God's word, which is only the Bible, no disrespect ment. Time is short and the Lord is not coming to Missouri.. And to pastor Jeff, you brother know time is short and you do love the saints, please stand firm telling them the truth so they will be with us in heaven.
I’m a never Mormon, these thoughts are interpretation not what I have learned from other LDS members. The three tiers of heaven is not scriptural. You either accept Jesus as your savior or you do not, there is no, “you were good but not good enough for the highest level of heaven”. I’ve also heard from many LDS members, “as man is God was, as God is man can become”, have I been lied too? My God was never a man, He has always been God. Here is my thoughts only, many of Joseph Smith’s revelations were self serving. It seems as if he made it up as he went along. I can be tolerant of all others faiths but I am uncomfortable encouraging or giving credence to false teachings.
I watch this video and was disappointed in the guests behavior. He had a real opportunity to share simple truth and came across as timid and hesitant. At one point I was not sure if he was indeed Latter Day Saint. I’ve never heard of him and I can’t say for sure. I understand he was probably trying to diminish the possibility of information shock value of his statements or answers to questions but he didn’t do anyone justice by it. The gospel is absolutely firm on doctrine. The next steps are building on those precepts and having the understanding deepen. Some of the things he said were off, or it was one of the times he was being hesitant. The three degrees of glory is spoken about in the Bible, baptisms for the dead are mentioned in the Bible. Many things and details were lost either in translation or on purpose of by people in the past trying to guide doctrine. The spirit is much more likely to testify truth when it is presented fully and in confidence. It is nice to see such civil discussion between different faiths.
I don't think he was being timid at all but simply demonstrating our beliefs in a fellowshipping tone. There is no need to double down on certain doctrinal points that have different perspectives. He's absoulutely correct to take caution on specific detailing of degrees of glory because a lot of the cultural beliefs that get passed around are tied to heavy speculation and not rooted in the scripture. We can have different opinions of what it may be but the doctrine is absolutely what we should stick to when sharing the gospel with others.
@@Vetionarian thank you, I understand your point. I think we can agree it’s best to use the spirit to guide our words. I don’t believe the spirit was able to be present during their interview. I rarely share gospel doctrine unless I’m asked or urged by the spirit. I tend to just focus on being a example and it brings out people with a prepared heart and questions. Either way, it was good to see civil discussion
Apples and Oranges in beliefs and opinion which is excellent. We don’t just believe in the Bible and I constantly try to explain that to my Christian friends that want me to prove my belief within the Bible. The point of this life is to be happy and to glorify God. We’re all very blessed to be here and to have the atoning sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ. In the end, I want to be just like our Heavenly Father. When and how that happens or how long it takes doesn’t matter. My goal is constant progression via the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and I hope we can all take that approach on a daily basis in our daily repentance.
You need visuals for this discussion so everyone can understand. As a Latter Day Saint I find this discussion to be vague and confusing for anybody new to these concepts. That being said, it’s amazing this conversation even happened! I applaud 👏 all efforts for genuine understanding between faiths ❤
I'm a Latter-day Saint and I don't know who he is, but I'm also not in the Utah Bubble. I'm in SE Tennessee. I wish Pastor Jeff would talk with Hank Smith or John Bytheway.
The way I think of it is that the degrees of glory are like colleges or universities. The Celestial Kingdom is the greatest space for learning, for creation, and for joy. The other degrees of glory are good, but not as expansive and exhilarating at the Celestial Kingdom. I think we will be where we're ready to be.
A person who lives in Utah, was/is a seminary teacher and does the Don’t Miss This youtube videos with the now young woman’s president Emily Freeman. Her daughter took over with David on that
David does well in Come Follow Me lessons, however, I think Greg Matsen could field your questions with much better detail and reasoning in this situation. My $0.02 worth....
For Latter-day Saints, heaven isn't about "getting our own planet" (which isn't actually taught by the church)-nothing we inherit as heirs of God is "our own," as if we go off to a corner of the universe where God is absent and we start doing our own thing. As exalted beings, we are in the eternal service of God, following the Father's will in all that we do, having become one with him (John 17:20-23). Exaltation means we are in eternal service to others. It's not about our own personal egos-it's exactly the opposite.
The problem with your statement is that it actually was taught by the church. Maybe it isn’t now but it was. You can’t just brush that aside. Why did they teach that? Is that wrong? If so, why was it wrong? If so, how could “a prophet of god” teach something so dastardly wrong and wicked? These aren’t just to be brushed aside in parentheses. These are doctrines your leaders have taught and mormons have to reconcile why these unbiblical ideas were (and some that continue to be) taught by men who supposedly “talked to god.” That also opens up the question “well, shoot, if our past leaders were so wrong about so much, what is our religion actually based on? Polygamy? Racism? Hmm, what else were they wrong about? If they weren’t actually speaking to god, but our leaders today say they speak to god, are they lying? How do we know they’re speaking to god? What could they be lying about? Is this whole thing actually just a fantastical story made up by a swindler and con man?
Pastor Jeff always seems to imply that marriage and being in the presence of God have to be mutally exclusive. Why is it so hard to think that both can be true simultaneously?
Because Jesus clearly says we won't be married in heaven Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." Christians actually follow the Bible not create their own beliefs out kf whole cloth. The mormon ides of heaven is completely unbiblical.
@@kurtbradwill You (and all of mainstream Christianity) misunderstand this scripture. You are the ones who are trying to give meaning to it without proper authority to decipher it's true meaning. This scripture is saying that once the "resurrection occurs" at that point, there won't be any marriages that are happening. In other words your "marriages" that you enter into while in this life, that are performed by the proper priesthood authority held by Peter, ie the authority to (bind on earth and in heaven) and need to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, then those marriages (unions) will be honored for all eternity. These need to take place before the resurrection, because you're right, once the resurrection happens there won't be any new marriages taking place. At that time, it will be too late. The final resurrection is like that last thing to occur before one enters into their eternal glory. You need to have all your relationships secured before the resurrection takes place.
@@jeremytpaul the only problem with your defense is the hypothetical posed by the Pharisees right before. The woman was married, multiple times, even. Who would she be the spouse to?
@@kurtbradwill yeah, that’s kind of the nature of prophets. They have been called by God to speak FOR Him! God reveals to his prophets what he wants them to teach to the world at any given time. They are called of God, doesn’t matter if you like it or not, or if it goes against your preconceived thoughts about any particular matter.
Paraphrasing "God will fulfill our needs in His Presence" We just believe that part of that is the institution of Marriage that He has given us, that His commandments have always mattered becuase they will always matter, from the beginning, to the eternities to come.
Two areas of discussion here seem superficial. 1/ Deification. There is no question earlier Church material teaches the idea we will be procreating Gods over our own creations. See Lorenzo's Snow poem, for starters. 2 / Polygamy in Heaven. The last couple of prophets have had plural wives, for heaven's sake. And that leads to a hugely uncomfortable topic: LDS belief in "Heavenly Parents" and heavenly mothers. Avoiding these topics makes the widespread evangelical apprehension about LDS theology seem strange, whereas there are reasons for it. I applaud the project of establishing Biblical commonality between LDS and evangelicals. But the conversation needs to stay true to be helpful. Press on!
I always say that heaven is any place where you love everyone and everyone loves you. One of the other things I hear is that mortal life is designed for conversion, and heaven is designed for perfection. When we talk about God completing and fulfilling us in the hereafter, who’s to say that the ‘mysterious means’ he uses aren’t our earthly relationships? Does that perfection happen all at once or are we continually refined by our interactions with the people who know and love us?
Christ has given to me his perfection as a gift. I have been made perfect. Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering Christ hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.
@@jlewis8145 That perfection meaning saved or sanctified, then I agree with you. We do not need to be without flaw or sin in order to be saved. It is a free gift available to all. I also believe discipleship is a process by which remove our desire to sin by drawing nearer to Christ and his nature. Does this process happen instantaneously when we shed the mortal body? Or do we cultivate that spiritual nature throughout our lives and the hereafter? Honest question.
@@TheBluebayooWhen I repented of my sins and put my faith in Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ forgave me of all my sins and imputed to me his righteousness, which is the righteousness of God. God now sees me as perfect and I can walk out of God's court room free on judgment day because Christ has paid the penalty for my sins in full with his life's blood. It's called justification where God declares the sinner not guilty. It's how Abraham and King David made it into heaven. Romans 4 2 Cor. 5:21 God made Jesus, who knew no sin, to be sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. I have peace with God by faith. Romans 5: 1 Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God. 🕊 There are no levels of heaven for the believer. When I die, I will immediately be with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor. 5:8 💖 Sanctification is a life long process of being conformed to his image.
Do you believe what Jesus Christ said about God and marriage? "What God has joined together, let not man put asunder." And what are we told about what God does? "I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it that men should fear before him." Ecclesiastes 3: 14. So that means all the marriages that God has put together shall be for ever, according to the Bible.
@@maxstooksberry9458 Correction, Jesus Christ himself said that there would be no marriages performed in the Resurrection, which for most doesn't happen until after the 1,000 years raign of Jesus Christ on earth. Plenty of time for people to be married before that. Look at the wording, "In the Resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage." No mention about them not staying married, especially if that marriage was bound on earth and in heaven using the power Jesus Christ gave his Apostles. As Paul said, "The Man is not without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord."
@@kurtbradwill Exactly, "in the resurrection", which for most doesn't happen until the end of the thousand years raign of Jesus Christ on earth, plenty of time for marriages to be bound on earth and in heaven by those Jesus Christ gave this authority Mathew 18: 18. People are always ignoring the qualifiers in the Bible. Like in Ephesians 2: 8, "by grace ye are saved THROUGH FAITH.", "Faith worketh by love." Galatians 5: 6, and "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14: 15 also "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loves me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him." John 14: 21 and finally "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Galatians 5: 14.
The gospel is the means of salvation and the source of priesthood power, atoning grace, revelation, and blessings. It does not require a church organization or mortals to make it true. It is eternal in nature and derives it's truth and power from the Atonement of Christ. The gospel is a divine system of powers, priesthood, and principles that are indeed flawless and can never err. The gospel embraces all truth, and if we understood it fully and flawlessly, we would understand the mind of God and would share His eternal understanding of all things. The gospel can never falter or fail to deliver the promised blessings because the gospel and Jesus Christ are inseparably intertwined.
Actually the heaven that pastor Jeff described in being in God's presence (or Christ's) presence and having a relationship with his wife but not married and without procreating is essentially what the terrestrial kingdom is described as. "In my father's house are many mansions" and you can choose or deside by the desires of your heart and how you choose to live and accept or reject Christ or the truths of his gospel and how you live them and keep your covenants with him. These all determine which kingdom of glory you will obtain. The celestial kingdom is where God the father and Jesus Christ dwell. It is to dwell with God and to become like him. The terrestrial kingdom will receive visits from Christ and be able to be in his presence at times but cannot see the father. In a way they reject the Father but they still believe in Christ. This is the type of heaven that is typical of most evangelical Christian belief and understanding. The telestial kingdom is those who reject Christ but are still good and descent.....although they may be liers and adulters etc. They are not satanists and they may believe in different Gods, Buddhists, Hindu, Gods etc. Some in Paul and some in Appollos etc. They are unable to see Christ or be in his presence. But they will have the ministration of the Holy Ghost there. So every will receive what they are willing to receive. Everyone will have a just and beautiful kingdom to dwell in save the extremely wicked who love satan and are cast out into outter darkness and receive no kingdom due to the darkness of their hearts.
Revelation 21 and 22 tell us what heaven will be like. Believers will be all together on the new earth and new heaven serving God and Christ. God does not separate his children on different levels or planets. No one will be married. Women will not be sharing their husbands with other women for all eternity. The 'other women' will not be separated from their families so they can serve as part of a man's harem of women. The true and living God doesn't damn people who deny the eternal principle of polygamy. (D&C 132) Heaven is a world of love. God loves everyone, including women.
There is no telestial level of heaven. No terrestrial or celestial level either! ❤ When I die, I will immediately be with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." 💕
My husband and I both grew up in the LDS faith. I grew up in Utah and my husband in Arizona. We were both HEAVILY taught that our ultimate goal in this life was to get married in the temple, have lots of kids(that we would get to still be parents to in the next life, somehow?🧐), all while being gods and creating worlds together. You are preaching false doctrine David. I really don’t know what you feel like your purpose is in doing that because every LDS person knows you’re lying and if you got someone to join the LDS church through doing this they would eventually find out it was a lie.
I have been a member for 43 years and never was taught I would have my own planet. Please give me a quote reference stating this, I am not sure there is one?
Mormon and the Bible believers believe in different Heaven. Mormon's Heaven had at least one Heavenly Mother. the Bible believers' Heaven simply just one eternal God. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew7:21
Wow. He is very careful to describe and answer the questions without saying fully. This conversation would look so different with someone else that is "in the wool" of believers.
My best friend in the entire world is Presbyterian. She told me she doesn't need a temple sealing with her husband because her pastor said the word 'eternity' when they got married, therefore they will be married forever according to her belief. Pastor Jeff, I think you've got to acknowledge that not every congregation in the Christian realm of denominations believes as you do that peeps will just exist as children of God without noted family relationships existing in heaven as they do on earth.
Jesus Christ said that no one will be married in heaven. In fact, Jesus Christ said that he would divide people and families. Matthew 10:34-37; Luke 12:51-53; The truth naturally divides people. To be worthy of Jesus and eternal life one must side with God's truth even if it divides his own family.
Isn’t it in harmony with the grander and the majesty and the beauty and the glory honor we owe to truest of love for it to be eternal in a marriage, to me, it is the most glorious part of a place called Heaven with God and your family
@@heathermcdougall8023 ok Terrestrial Kingdom is a good place too Jesus visits but those who choose to go there don’t choose to live with Heavenly Father there. That’s your choice. God is just and faithful and righteous and he doesn’t just have two places for the absolute worst and one for everyone else who is mediocre to the absolute best. There are three degrees for reason he won’t make you go anywhere you don’t wanna be. but I testify we have a father in heaven Jesus wasn’t talking to himself. His father in heaven is the father of our spirits and he wants us to come home.
@@heidilehew8264 I'm jut saying that I know you will find lots of other people and of other religions in the very highest level of the celestial kingdom, as it would be totally unjust and God isn;t unjust.
@@heathermcdougall8023 I don’t disagree that there are a lot of people in heaven that didn’t join the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints in this life. That’s what the temple is for to give them that chance. As Jesus Christ was baptized, we all need to be baptized to enter the kingdom of heaven by his authority. and you won’t find any other religion that believes that they all think you have to join their church only to be saved, but what we say is that they need to be baptized by his authority, and I testify that Joseph Smith was visited by angels, and that authority was restored to the Earth, and that is the mission that we have to share Jesus Christ with everyone because we want everyone to have that opportunity to accept a baptism by his authority and be with their families forever
@@heidilehew8264 I don't believe anybody needs baptism to be with the timeless God in the highest levels of heaven. My God is far more powerful than that, and doesn't demand baptism. I respect the fact that you disagree and that your god is a god of flesh and blood and bone and is only eternal. My God is literally timeless, with perfect justice. It would be totally immoral of God to refuse access to HIM, when somebody has lived a truly excellent, loving life of goodness.
The time between individual physical death, the Second Coming, the Millennium, and Final Judgment aren’t given proper attention when discussing Heaven. Paradise is the state of one’s spirit after death who loved God. Heaven is participation in Christ’s Millennial reign on a purified Earth (celestial and terrestrial bodies, but not telestial, participate). Heaven is after final judgment abiding the presence of God the Spirit (telestial glory), or God the Son (terrestrial glory), or God the Father (celestial glory). Heaven is many things at particular moments in time. LDS fully believe in the Christian concept of union with Jesus. The Terrestrial Kingdom. But because we have such a robust and integrated belief system around priesthood, ordinances, and family, we believe there’s much more involved when it comes to inheriting what God has to offer His children.
At 16:42 in my opinion no matter if there is a sealing to a marriage or not, even regardless of what religious affiliations one might have, if a person is going to marry a widow or widower who dearly loved their first spouse, they have to accept the fact they are sharing that person's heart with someone else. I'm one of those jealous types.I couldn't marry someone who was married previously regardless of how that marriage ended, so I tried to avoid dating women I knew were in those situations.
Well then they won't be with their family will they? They will be far to busy running a planet and even a universe. So mormon theology is self-contradictory.
@@heathermcdougall8023in the most narrow read, I suppose. Then again, that's true if parents live in a house in the neighborhood with their adult children. They are separate houses, and yet they would tell you they feel like they are "with" their kids. Attempts to place our concepts of space and time certainly seems pretty thin when we talk about omnipotence.
We all as Christians need to unite together to combat the combined forces against all of us and stop fighting amongst ourselves..A house divided cannot stand!
It is interesting to note that if our mutual agreement on Heaven is being in the presence of our Father in Heaven, LDS doctrine requires one's tithing to even qualify for the privilege and blessing. I suppose that is why the LDS Church is the most wealthiest American church in the land... and most politically powerful as well. I guess you can buy anything in this world with money. As for heavenly parents, I believe there are now liberal progressive LDS members who wish to pray to their heavenly mother. It is also LDS doctrine that heavenly father has a plurality of wives. Even so, it seems if an outsider like Pastor Jeff really wants to know about what the LDS faithful believe regarding heaven, then I would highly encourage him to have a conversation with an LDS apostle. Although, I must admit, Pastor Jeff did a good job of briefly summarizing the Evangelical perspective on heaven and marriage.
It’s not about the tithing that saves us, it’s the obedience to the law. If you do not follow Gods commandments, do you really believe Him? Do you think you will be able to be in His presence if you do not follow Him? Also, even if you do not pay your tithing and other offerings, you will still be in heaven, just not in the presence of the Father. Maybe in the presence of Christ though
@kennunez5927- Hello. You misunderstand Latter-day Saint doctrine. There are no scriptures or teachings that say God has more than 1 wife. We believe that marriage is ordained of God since the Old Testament in Genesis teaches that God joined Adam and Eve and ordained marriage while they were in the Garden before the Fall. 1 Corinthians in the New Testament teaches that "neither is the man without the woman nor the woman without the man in the Lord." As to your other point, tithes are not a requirement to be in God's presence after death. If tithing were required, living Latter-Day Saints would pay tithing by proxy for deceased persons the same way that we perform other ordinances in the temples for people who have passed away that we believe are required.
@@joeshriver778 Since even Adam and Eve (God's most perfect creatures) could not even keep a simple commandment, I believe it is clear that keeping commandments (perfectly, all the time) isn't what saves us unto Eternal Life. I believe God saves us. It is our faith in what He has done for us, through Jesus Christ, that saves us... and allows us to return to His presence. As for still being in His presence if one does not pay their tithes and offerings, that was not really discussed in this video... although I agree it should have. My sense is that both of them were skirting the doctrine on the lower degrees of glory. Perhaps they will address it in a follow up video.
@@micheleh3851 The doctrine on plural marriage is found in D&C132... and is also a part of the New and Everlasting Covenant. 19th century LDS apostles taught this doctrine often. However, since the practice of polygamy ceased, it is no longer brought up. While the physical reality of the practice has ceased, the spiritual reality was still being verbalized in the temple as of recent years. In fact, even the Proclamation on the Family does not state marriage is between "one" man and "one" woman. It is purposely vague on that "monogamy" point. However, I do appreciate you quoting the Holy Bible.
@kennunez5927 - Polygamy is not a requirement in Heaven. As the guest stated on this video, no one will have more than 1 spouse in the eternities if they choose not to. That is our doctrine. I personally believe very few will choose that, as the majority of Church members have never been in polygamist relationships. Even at the height of polygamy during the time of Brigham Young, about 80% of the population of the Church were in non-polygamist households.
I think the statements from the official LDS website is pretty clear”As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be” If God was a man then he once was a liar, thief, adulterer, etc. And so a good Mormon that does all the right Temple acts etc, can become a God, just as their God did. I say “their God” because my God is not a liar, thief, adulterer etc. He was never a man. He never sinned. This is one of many doctrines that make LDS a different religion based on a different God and Christ. Not a continuation of the Jewish, and then main stream Christianity.
Jesus Christ came to this earth as a baby, innocent as all new born nannies. Although He was perfect and remained perfect, He, in a way like us trying to become perfect(not attainable for us in this life) but Jesus had to prove Himself PERFECT IN EVERY WAY, in order to pay the price He and He ALONE PAID in the Garden, then on the Cross and with His Resurrection, broke the bands of death and made it possible for all mankind to be Resurrected as well. He was sinless, but even so, He could have fallen, and I am forever grateful for His sinless, righteous example! Agency is a gift to all mankind and Jesus Christ choose to be sinless. Heavenly Father knew Jesus would make the right choice always, but Father left that choice to His Only Begotten Son to make. I'm so grateful that He lived His life sinless and was willing to go through that terrible suffering for you and me, and all mankind!
This is a strawman. Latter-Day Saints believe that Christ never sinned. We also never claimed any details about God the Father’s life as a man. It is possible that when God the Father was a mortal, he never lied, stole, or committed adultery. I don’t know why you believe being a man necessitates lying, stealing, and committing adultery. You don’t have to persecute us for believing in an absolute atonement.
@@natedawg2020 the last thing I would do is persecute anyone. I’m just trying to get to the truth. Let me leave you with this. I find most people only relate when it hits real close to home. Joseph Smith said he would be a God one day. And let’s face it, if he doesn’t achieve godhood then what LDS member can? Now I’m not going to lay into the 14 year old girls he married, or the other 7 teenagers. I’m not going to talk another the 34 wives in total. Let’s just agree that Joseph smith was a sinner like all of us. He lied at some point. Lusted at some point. And so on. He believed with all his heart he was going to be exalted to godhood and have his own planet. So tell me again how our God in heaven right now is perfect in the eyes of the LDS church. What would lead you to that? Jesus was just the brother of Satan. A created being. Why would you think he wasn’t a sinner prior to coming to the Earth?
@@johnstark-StarkAvionics I said I didn’t know any details about the life of God the Father other than he lived as a man. If you believe in absolute atonement, then you believe in absolute new birth and that sins are literally remembered no more. After becoming God, God has no beginning due to omnipotence over time. The appeals to ridicule are unnecessary. I’m not going to talk about how ridiculous your beliefs are either.
Im 72 and when I was in the church it wasnt maybe you could become a God and Goddess it was you will become a God and Goddess if you follow the covenant path. It wasn't called covenant path back then. That is a Russell M Nelson phrase. 😂 And there would be polygamy and the women would be having babies to populate your new world. Always sounded more like hell than heaven to me.🤣 But I was told I got to pick the future wives for my husband so I had a few in mind that he wasnt so wild about. 🤣 Now under Pres. Nelson I've noticed the church is trying to come across more mainline Christian. I think that is great because my kids and grandkids are still in. I believe Joseph Smith took the idea of different heavenly kingdoms from Emmanuel Swedenborg. Im sure his books were very popular during Joseph Smiths time. I do believe in total reconciliation so I have NO problem with that. GOD IS LOVE so I do not believe He would torture people for eternity. He expects us to forgive and love our enemies and those that persecute us just as Jesus did on the cross. He will ALWAYS go after His lost sheep and welcome the prodigals home. That is justice and LOVE. ❤
Seems that over the past 50 plus years church leaders have danced around hoping people see the LDSchurch more christian like. In essence trying to fool people. @saralyg
@@saralyg I've heard they have made lots of changes but I don't talk to my kids about it. When you leave the church people in the church do not want to know why or talk about it. You can lose family relationships if you do. We all live in Utah except my daughter. My kids love the Mormon culture of Utah. It is VERY organized and Mormons are very friendly. I don't think God gives a hoot what church you go to. There are soooo many to choose from. It's about relationship not religion. Jesus is the WAY (LOVE) the TRUTH ( Love God, Love Others), and the LIFE (he defeated death on the cross for ALL of Humanity) so we can ALL spend eternity in a pain free, peaceful over the top beautiful place. It's hard for me to imagine a more beautiful place than this AMAZING earth.❤️
Brother Jeff, a very cool thing to do would be to tour Welfare Square in Salt Lake City. Pleeeeeeseee, for all the feels, grab David Boice and Steve with MBR and have a tour.
We don't know if anyone will be eternally sealed to multiple spouses or not. The purpose of being sealed to another spouse may have just been so their kids be born under the covenant in this life and so the spouse could enter the patriarchal priesthood in this life. Polygamy could be only a mortal practice when allowed by God for His reasons. In other words, it hasn't been revealed if there is ANY polygamy in the eternities. Another note, a woman can be sealed to another man after she dies so that she can choose in the next life. There is even a church history story of a woman who became a plural wife (and had children with the husband) after her fiancé died crossings the plains, and the prophet allowed her to be sealed to her fiancé after she passed away. Any church member who claims we will have polygamy in the next life is stating their opinion, not doctrine.
I guess you could say it’s my opinion that the sealing ordinance states that man and wife will be sealed for time and eternity. No mental gymnastics or opinions are required when it’s explicit in the definition. It seems more correct to believe that eternal polygamy is more likely possible than impossible. I think polygamy sounds terrible. The part I always come back to is unless there is an exactly equal number of males and females who qualify for exaltation, someone is going to have to be discriminated against unless there is polygamy in the next life. Maybe there will be an equal number of males and females though and all of them will be monogamous. You are correct that I don’t know that.
I think we will have choice if we would like to continue on with that sealing in the next life. I'll share my experience. I was sealed to my first husband. We were happily married for 27 years and then he fell away. He not only lost his testimony, but completely gave himself over to an evil lifestyle. He wanted out of our marriage & after some feeble attempts at couseling on his part, I gave in & signed divorce papers. I was single for about 8 yrs & dated off & on but still healing. After a horrible date, I told the Lord that if He wanted me to remarry, he ( the man), would have to find me and I stopped dating. I had a dream that summer & I don't usually remember my dreams very well, but this seemed more like a message: I was sitting in a chair with 5 or more ladies dressed in white surrounding me. One of the ladies I remembered vividly. She had blondish hair & bright blue sparkling eyes & she said my name & very joyfully said "the Lord is just waiting to bless you!" And that was it. Odd, I thought. And I tucked that little dream away in my heart & went on with my life. About three months later I met a wonderful man online & we made arrangements to meet, though three states away from each other. We ended up getting married civilly after a short courtship. As I got to know his children and he mine, we both felt like we were each other's kids' parents! As I was going through his wallet one day, looking for something he had asked me to find for him (as he was driving), I ran across an old family photo of his late wife & kids. His wife was the woman dressed in white in my dream! Her face & countenance was just the same and I can't wait to meet her! True story. My husband and I were sealed in the Salt Lake Temple after my sealing to my first husband was broken. Shortly thereafter I received a letter from the First Presidency of the Church signed by Pres. Monson & his counselors saying that my sealing to my first husband had been nullified and that my children (born in the covenant) are entitled to "Celestial Parentage in the Celestial Kingdom" if they remain true and faithful.. I think that if we are to be found worthy to dwell with our Heavenly Father and His Son someday, that emotions like jealousy, competition, possessiveness and such will not be found. How could they be? Part of our progress here on Earth is to rid ourselves of these evil tendencies that we all feel from time to time.
Meaning that after this life (after we are resurrected) there will be no more new marriages. Thosr who have not found a spouse, and been sealed to them, will not be paired as spouses in the hereafter, but will be ministering angels to those that are husband and wife.
It has been said that we would have all that God Has. What that could mean is that we get a planet/universe/dimension of our own. Is it true, maybe, should that be our focus, no. Our focus is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Repentance, and Following Him, be a neighbor, visit the sick, inflicted, in jail, the widows and widowers, the orphans and so forth. Doing His will with an eye single to His glory.
Regarding eternal marriage, I'd like to quote Romans 1:19 in the New Testament: "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"
I may be wrong about this, but my understanding is that in order to enter into the kingdom where God the Father dwells we must be willing to exercise sufficient faith in Jesus to do ALL that the Father asks of us. In exercising that faith I am redeemed through the grace of Christ and eventually sanctified. If we truly have faith in Christ, we will not shy away from sacrificing or doing whatsoever he requires. To do otherwise is not faith. God should see that I have faith by my obedience/works. Even if that thing means great personal sacrifice of status or position. If "Heaven" is defined as being in God the Father's presence/kingdom then only those willing to exercise faith and do His will will be allowed into "Heaven". All others will be somewhere else.
What other questions do you have about the afterlife that we did NOT discuss?
I think the different types of resurrected bodies would be a great topic.
Russel Nelson brought that back to the forefront of doctrinal consideration last October.
And, to clarify, those who have multiple wives, like Russel Nelson, or Dalin Oaks, will have them in the next life.
Hi Rodney, we do believe in different resurrected bodies. Not sure if that was a redundant question on your part? There are different degrees of glory that resurrected bodies can inherit, based on the kind of life an individual led and their adherence to God’s commandments. These degrees of glory are referred to as the Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial kingdoms, as well as outer darkness, where only the most wicked are said to reside. This concept is derived from visions recorded in the Doctrine and Covenants, one of the church’s scriptures, particularly in section 76.
Pastor Jeff did you discuss what happens when a LDS passed away? I know they go to a place and do “work” until I’m not sure when. Can you help clarify that part?
No one likes to talk about this.
D&C 132 is supposed to be the revelation on how to get to the celestial kingdom. It's all about polygamy/ marriage the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. being the only way to get to the celestial kingdom.
It's essential to understand LDS beliefs in heaven. It's also a lot of big problems for the LDS church.
They have taught very different things depending on what time to are getting instructions on it.
It was taught differently from the 70ies to the 90ies then now. And much different from Joseph smith's time. But if you look into the core doctrine it's there. All you have to do is read all of D&C 132 to get a perspective of the doctrine.
Joseph Smith and Brigham Youngs teachings have been changed very much overtime. But it used to be one of the core doctrine of the church but now the church has tried to become more mainstream Christian and those things are not talked about as much.
One big thing even most members of the LDS church don't like or really know me included growing up LDS. a lot about is polygamy and polyandry that Joseph started before the revelation D&C 132 that was given to Emma. If you read D&C 132 it talks about the new and everlasting covenant of marriage or the law of polygamy. That was a law given to Emma and condemned her if she didn't except Joseph doing polygamy.
He was excused of all his sins and Emma condemned even though Joseph had married almost 20 women in secret that Emma didn't know about before he even gave the revelation D&C132.
He even remarried a few of them because they were approved of be Emma just to get her to go a long with it.
Latter-Day Saint "Heaven" is deep down the heaven that everyone hopes for. No on wants to admit it because no one wants the "Mormons" to be right but literally no one wants to play a harp, or trumpet, or just sing for eternity. Everyone's soul longs for eternal progression, eternal family, and a relationship with our Heavenly Father where he teaches us to become more and more like him and reach perfection just as he promised many times throughout the OT, NT, BOM & D&C.
No! That is NOT the heaven I want , nor envisage.
I don't know about that, but I will say I don't care for many mainstream Christian doctrines about Hell, especially the Calvinists who believe God predestined people for Hell and they get no say in it. I don't think people should be tortured for all eternity because they just believed the wrong religion, and likely because they were raised in it. Of course, there's a lot of debate and complex doctrine around that, but, at least for a lot of Christians, that's how it is.
@@James_WisniewskiI think people should be brave enough to seek out the truth even if it is not found in the religion one is raised in.
@@James_WisniewskiI begged God that I would not be an object of His wrath 😔 He is giving me hope ❤
Jesus said the Kingdom of God is within us. But it's a place too?
I'm so impressed with how well prepared Pastor Jeff is to have this discussion with David
This was such a great discussion. As a Latter Day Saint who grew up with evangelical friends in Missouri, it’s so nice that we are finally having these discussions instead of just jumping to conclusions about one another. Thank you Pastor Jeff! You are doing an important work.
I love your conversations. Thank you so much for the spirit you approach all of these questions so that we can all be better and understand each other greater. Much love!! Thank you Jeff!!
Thanks for bridging our worlds. I often get defensive automatically when people start asking about my beliefs and it ends up with both of us feeling misunderstood and hurt. Thank you for being a good example. I'm very grateful. God is good and He loves us all
I believe that the best and highest aspirations about Heaven is to progress to the point we desire to do God's work ourselves, not just live with him. That requires giving life to others and shepherding them through the long developmental process of growth.
I’d really love to see Pastor Jeff in a conversation with Jared Halverson from Unshaken Saints. Please 🙏🏼 😊
This would be epic.
That would be awesome. Seeing him with David was great!!
@@jeffwaterhouse1116 I actually worry about this too. Pastor Jeff has said that he doesn’t want to get into it with some LDS scholar and I thought that was odd. Why not? Why not speak with someone who is so well versed in ALL scriptures like Halverson? It would be amazing bc Halverson is so thoughtful but yet kind and patient with people as well. It would be absolutely incredible!!
Yes, yes, yes. I comment this all the time!! It would be incredible!! But he’d have to carve out at least 2hrs. Haha! 😂
I remember Halverson said that he was all about teaching people who have sincere questions they are wrestling with, but not interested in trying to answer questions that are asked in order to point out disparities or create doubt; pretty much the essence of Jeff's channel. Jeff's not wrestling with questions that he's having a desire to gain more doctrinal understanding about. He's much more interested in pointing out the differences, which to be honest, aren't that big of differences when they're all boiled down. Listening to 52 Churches in 52 Weeks, there was a STARK contrast in desire to learn for the sake of exploring truth in openness.
I'm a very active Latter-Day Saint, and this is my first time hearing from David Butler. He seems like a pretty great guy.
His podcast is great!
His podcast is called "Don't Miss This"
He also does a podcast with Stephan Taeger called RVVL (Revival) and it’s amazing 🔥
He is amazing! You should check out his other podcasts! :)
10:27 it’s not necessarily those who have completed the ordinances like some sort of check box. It’s that the ordinances show us the pattern of what following Christ looks like, and teaches us how to become more like him. As we strive to then keep those covenants to live a particular type of life - ie. a celestial life, doing what Christ would do, we are essentially choosing a celestial glory. And everyone will have a chance to choose that - here or hereafter. Let’s drop the check boxes thing - that’s not what an ordinance is.
can someone with autonomy choose to live in the celestial kingdom without performing all the LDS covenants?
No, the ordinances must be done by divine authority and the covenants entered into and fulfilled in order to be prepared to enter into eternal life. A covenant parallel path isn't the same. We want the name brand, not the knockoff brand. The name brand is Jesus and we take his name upon us through His ordinances. We become like him by fulfilling our covenants with him. Elder Christopherson said:
"Some might say, “I can make good choices with or without baptism; I don’t need covenants to be an honorable and successful person.” Indeed, there are many who, while not on the covenant path themselves, act in a way that mirrors the choices and contributions of those who are on the path. You might say they reap the blessings of walking a “covenant-consistent” path. What, then, is the difference of the covenant path? Actually, the difference is uniquely and eternally significant. It includes the nature of our obedience, the character of God’s commitment to us, the divine help we receive, the blessings tied to gathering as a covenant people, and most importantly, our eternal inheritance."
Why the Covenant Path
www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2021/04/54christofferson?id=p8-p9&lang=eng#p8
@@Jdoggyification great comment. The minor point I would add for @maxstooksberry is that someone with autonomy choosing to enter the celestial kingdom will choose to participate in ordinances and make covenants (however that is worked out in the eternal world) and to live a celestial type of life. The scriptures teach us that unless we choose to be transformed into becoming like him, we won’t be able to, nor will we want to behold his glory. There isn’t one without the other.
@@maxstooksberry9458those who had the opportunity to perform the ordinances in this life and chose to do that can be in the celestial kingdom as they continue to choose that quality of life. Those who didn't have the opportunity to perform the ordinances in their life on earth and want to choose to accept them as done by someone else on their behalf can also be in the celestial kingdom. Everyone who is in the celestial kingdom will have done everything God ever told them to do, and if that includes ordinances (which it does) then they will have had those completed one way or another, as ordinances are the sign and proof of the commitment to the relationship on the part of both God and the person or couple. One other way to say it is, no one will be in the celestial kingdom by accident.
@@skylerreddy5436 not just the next life, but this life. The temple pattern is the same pattern that the prophets followed - they entered the presence of the Lord in the flesh and then their objective was to bring the people into the presence of the Lord here and now - think Moses and the children of Israel; Enoch etc. That joy can be here and now, I believe.
Pastor Jeff great job in bridging the divide among the Church and the Protestant doctrines, keep it up, You are a true peacemaker as Pres Nelsons request for all be become: a peace maker a true disciple
I’m glad you are taking a time to know about us and what we believe 🎉. Glad you are doing this.
I am a practicing Latter Day Saint. This channel has helped me understand Evangelical's point of view, although I haven't had good experiences in the past with them. Which actually caused me great pain as they were close friends of mine. This channel has helped me realize that there is considerable differences but we can respect each other and admire the deep passion for truth and following our faith to draw closer to our Heavenly Father.
And always keep in mind the possibility of hypocrisy. Just because someone claims to Know Him, doesn't mean they've even begun their journey with Him.
I am sorry that you have had so many negative experiences with Evangelicals . Unfortunately the ones that are negative evangelicals makes the rest too f the evangelicals caps look bad. I like this channel very much and has given me hope that there are still people in this earth that can talk and deal gue decently
Does David's wife look forward to being eternally pregnant? I would love to hear her opinion.
Well, the eternally pregnant comment, I feel like I can answer that, ask yourself who had the billions of children that have been here and will still come to the earth? I’m not asking that to look down on you. I’m asking you to open up your mind to greater understanding, I would’ve loved to of had 50 children, while I was here upon the Earth, but it was not given to me to do that, children are a blessing, not a curse. Have a beautiful life.
GEOGRAPHY: There can place it on earth. You see maps in the Bible and geography can be placed and documented. You don’t have geography for the Book of Mormon because there is no real-world setting. It cannot be placed.
PEOPLES & EMPIRES: The peoples and Empires listed in the bible have been well established by archaeology, written records and history but there is no evidence of the peoples and empires listed in the Book of Mormon. There is simply no trace anywhere. Is it possible for the three enormous empires that flourished in the America’s to leave absolutely no trace? Any Archaeologist will say this is not possible.
CITIES: Thirty-eight cities mentioned-none have ever been found. No Mormon cities have been located by using the Book of Mormon as a guide. Archaeologists have never successfully used the Book of Mormon as a guide in locating any ancient ruins. Leading archeological researchers not only have repudiated the claims of the Book of Mormon as to the existence of those civilizations, but have amassed much evidence to show the impossibility of the accounts given in the Mormon bible. Many times, Mormons will cite how the Smithsonian Institute backs up their claims. The following is an official statement made by the Smithsonian in 1979: "The Smithsonian Institution has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archaeologists see no connection between the archaeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book."
PLANTS & ANIMALS: We see the wrong types of plants and animals in the Book of Mormon. For example, the Book of Mormon states horses were used in great battles involving chariots, yet horses were never in the America’s at this time. There is no evidence of horses in Central and North America before the Spaniards arrived (hundreds of years after the Book of Mormon).
METALLURGY & WRITINGS: "Steel" and "iron" are mentioned several times in the Book of Mormon. No evidence has been found in the Americas of iron being hardened to make "steel" in ancient times. Even though ancient Andean people smelted some metals, such as copper, they never smelted iron like they did in the Old World .... Metals were used for a variety of tools in the Old World, such as weapons, while in the Americas, metals were used as prestige goods for the wealthy elite. It is said the Nephites were a culture of writings. Now a culture with writings leaves records, yet there is zero evidence of any writings. An empire that last 1,000 years and claims to be a culture of writings that produced thousands of plates and records should easily be found via archaeology, yet nothing has been found.
DNA EVIDENCE: The Mormon church claims that the ancient inhabitants of the Americas (Indians) descended from the Jews. Genetic evidence shows the Indians can be traced exclusively to Asia.
ANCIENT MANUSCRIPTS: To support the bible, there are over 40,000 ancient manuscripts to support it. There is manuscript evidence almost 2,000 years old supporting the New Testament and over 2,000 years old supporting the Old Testament. The Book of Mormon has ZERO ancient manuscripts to back it up, yet it is criticizing the bible as being unreliable when the bible has over 40,000 ancient manuscripts to support it.
LANGUAGES: According to the Book of Mormon, the languages spoken by the first people to live in the America’s were Hebrew and Egyptian. If this were true, at least some of the native American languages should contain words which clearly show this origin. English has thousands of words which contain Greek and Latin roots. After two thousand years these roots still show the influences of Greek and Latin. If the Book of Mormon is correct, many Indian words should contain Hebrew and Egyptian roots. Many English words come to us from Spanish, French and Germanic languages. Hebrew and Egyptian words, however, are not found in any of the Indian languages.
REFORMED EGYPTIAN HIEROGLYPHICS: Any linguist other than Mormon linguist will tell you they never heard of Reformed Egyptian. The reason any mainstream linguist doesn’t have anything to say about it is because it is a fictional language. Book of Mormon was supposedly translated from "reformed Egyptian." Nothing on the western hemisphere has ever been found that even remotely resembles Egyptian. Officially "reformed Egyptian" doesn't exist. Think about it: the LDS church says that these ancient people in middle America were Jews who came over from Palestine. The last language that any Jew would write in would be Egyptian. The Hebrew language is one of the purest languages of all time. They surely would have written any of their history in Hebrew as they did in the Old Testament.
Dr. A. H. Sayce of Oxford, England wrote: "It is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith's impudent fraud. His facsimile from the Book of Abraham No. 2 is an ordinary hypocephalus, but the hieroglyphics upon it have been copied so ignorantly that hardly one of them is correct". James H. Breasted, Ph.D., Egyptologist, Haskell Oriental Museum, University of Chicago wrote: “These three facsimiles of Egyptian documents in the ‘Pearl of Great Price' depict the most common objects in the Mortuary religion of Egypt. Joseph Smith's interpretations of them as part of a unique revelation through Abraham, therefore, very clearly demonstrates that he was totally unacquainted with the significance of these documents and absolutely ignorant of the simplest facts of Egyptian writing and civilization.”
COINS: The Bible and the Book of Mormon describe a coinage system. There have been thousands of coins to support the bible dating back to the 1st century. Nothing has ever been found to support the Book of Mormon. Also, metallic coins were never used in ancient America.
PLAGIARISM: The Book of Mormon Contains plagiarism from King James Version-25,000 words taken verbatim from the King James Version of the Bible. There are 19 complete chapters copied word-for-word from the Bible. The Book of Mormon was supposedly written 1,200 years before the King James Version was published, so how is this possible?
WARFARE: The bible gives numerous accounts of battles involving spears, chariots and places these battles took places and evidence, written records and artifacts have proven these battles to be true. There is zero evidence to support the Book of Mormon.
TEMPLES: Lehi stated he built a temple and constructed it after the manner of King Solomon. Temples in the bible have been found to support the bible and no temple has ever been found to support the Book of Mormon. Jews are not allowed to erect a temple anywhere other than Mount Moriah. The Book of Mormon clearly identifies Lehi as a descendent of Joseph and he appoints his two sons to serve in the Temple they had built. The men who serve in the Holy Temple are all dependents of Aaron. The Book of Mormon claim poses a problem because appointing priest who are not Aaronic Levites was expressly forbidden in the Old Testament and yet the Book of Mormon claims to uphold the Old testament laws.
HISTORICAL FIGURES: In the bible we have evidence to support that ancient historical figures existed like Jesus, Daniel, Moses, Peter, Isaiah, Paul, King David, etc., but there is no evidence that any Mormon prophet ever existed. There is no evidence that Jesus Christ of the bible is the Jesus Christ of the Book of Mormon. I cannot understand how archaeological evidence and textual evidence would point in the historical reality of Christ in Palestine and yet be entirely lost in the Book of Mormon.
THE HILL OF CUMORAH: The biggest evidence against the Mormon Church is that is does not have a major archaeological dig at the current Hill Cumorah in New York state. Today Archaeologists use some of the most cutting-edge techniques before they even get out their shovels. Remote-sensing methods have allowed scientists to find hidden sites and objects, from Egyptian pyramids to the burial site of Richard III. We have Hi-Tech Mapping using Ground-Penetrating radar, high-resolution magnetometers, and other state-of-the-art remote-sensing equipment can find anything if it is under the dirt!
The Book of Mormon claims that there were STEEL swords, spears, shields, armor, horses etc. in abundance present in this great battle. According to the Book of Mormon, at least 230,000 men died in battle at the Hill Cumorah. Also, this battle was about 1/10 the size of the battle which took place at the same location approximately 1,000 years earlier when, according to Ether 15:2 "nearly two million" of the Jaredites had their last great battle. In theory this site should be a gold mine of easy-to-find archaeological evidence. Don’t you think if the Mormon Church or any Professional Archaeological Organization that was heavily funded with the most modern technology in the world, could find at least one little archaeological find at the Hill Cumorah?
Pastor Jeff's description starting at the 19:28 of Moses entering back into the covenant relationship with God that was established with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is exactly what we as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do. Pastor Jeff explains, "Moses went up to Mt. Sinai. He is experiencing the presence of God. He (God) establishes His laws with His people. He wants Moses to build a place where His presence will dwell, because He desires to be with us." As saints, going to the House the Lord (the temple) is exactly as Pastor Jeff describes. We go there to enter into and remember our convenantal relationship with Him (His laws) and to be in His presence and build our relationship with Him.
This is the first video that I have seen where Pastor Jeff finally expresses himself in a Christlike manner. I really like the patience He displayed towards his guest. I enjoyed his explanation of his understanding of the scriptures. Which is so close to the beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
I have often watched his videos and been truly frustrated at his lack of understanding when it comes to LDS cultural beliefs versus revealed doctrine. Many Christians, Catholics and even members of the church of Jesus Christ have their own guesses about things that have never been revealed. These things cannot not be viewed or understood as our doctrine unless they are written into our scriptures or spoken by more than one prophet at a General Conference. Or signed as a declaration by the current apostles, and the first presidency of the church. Everything else that one hears about our beliefs or culture is just a group interpretation of or individuals interpretation of those statements or scriptures.
Christian beliefs are nothing close to mormon doctrine. Like not close at all.
That's interesting. I didn't see any different attitude here than I have always seen. He seems sincere and polite and basic friendly.
I’m a Latter-day Saint and I feel like David is playing down our unique doctrines to make us more in line with mainstream Christianity. We need to embrace what makes us different
Hmm. I’m an evangelical and I feel like Jeff is doing the same. At least he did so about hell in this video.
...I was thinking the same thing actually
That's not how understanding works. One finds areas of agreement.
Just a quick comment on a statement from David about God letting us have a thrill from mortality in heaven (in the form of marriage) I think it’s the other way around. Family and marriage is the order, societal organization, of heaven. So, to prepare us for that and to give us a taste of its sweetness, He organizes us in families here.
I loved Randy Acorn’s book *Heaven*. I read it before I converted from an evangelical to a Latter-day Saint. It actually opened my mind up to some of the possibility that are out of the conventional “Heaven” box as understood by mainstream Christian’s. I think it dovetails beautifully with my Latter-day Saint beliefs.
So much respect to you Pastor Jeff! Non-contentious discussion and understanding. So amazing. Thank you both.
I thought this was a good conversation. As a Latter-day Saint I am so thankful to know that my marriage will last forever. It is partly through God-ordained marriage that we practice being one, and it is meant to last forever. There is a reason the endowment is similar to a coronation. It's interesting that Russian Orthodox weddings hold crowns over the heads of those being married. When we are married and having children we are trying to be like our Heavenly Father.
Luke 20:28-36
[28] They posed this question: “Teacher, Moses gave us a law that if a man dies, leaving a wife but no children, his brother should marry the widow and have a child who will carry on the brother’s name. [29] Well, suppose there were seven brothers. The oldest one married and then died without children. [30] So the second brother married the widow, but he also died. [31] Then the third brother married her. This continued with all seven of them, who died without children. [32] Finally, the woman also died. [33] So tell us, whose wife will she be in the resurrection? For all seven were married to her!” [34] Jesus replied, “Marriage is for people here on earth. [35] But in the age to come, those worthy of being raised from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage. [36] And they will never die again. In this respect they will be like angels. They are children of God and children of the resurrection.
Your marriage won't last forever. If you want your own planet, you will have to accept lots of other women to be wives of your husband. Sure, you will probably continue to be merely one of them. Is that OK with you?
You must have an awesome marriage to want to be married for eternity ❤
We have definitely been taught by “prophets” that we will have powers, principalities, & dominions. And yes we have been told we would create worlds. And polygamy IS a MUST in the celestial realm. Please know this coming from a life long member. But that’s ending for me. 🎉
Jesus Saves! NOT TEMPLES like we are taught, I mean this is an addition to the atonement which we do believe in, but the temple is an addition which is explicitly stated by Jesus as a warning. I’m team listen and believe Jesus’s words.
What a sweet conversation!!!! I have been following Hello Saints for a while, I am LDS, but I have found SO MUCH TRUTH IN SO MANY FAITHS!
“As man now is, God once was:
“As God now is, man may be.”
-Lorenzo Snow
You could extrapolate this into Godhood, and that makes a lot of sense to me, but either way it's gonna be great.
"Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life." Athanasius also observed: "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."
An early trinitarian father used to have more sense than the trinnies today. :>)
@@godsoffspring4195 Way to take Athanasius out of context there, chief. The Greek word that is used in the catechism for "deified" is "theopoiethomen", meaning participation.
You would have to show the early church fathers consistently taught that man could become God in the sense that Mormonism believes. You simply can't.
@@BrendonKing ... All the Gods participate perfectly. They are ONE. In fact... the Godhead is the perfect example of that. So... when we too become one with them... just like Jesus is one with His Father( see John 17:21-23).. we become the gods we were created to be in the eternal Family of God.
Got milk Brendon?? :>)
@@godsoffspring4195 nice change of subject. Show me where Athanasius consistently teaches that mankind can become God AS UNDERSTOOD by the LDS faith.
I welcome Pastor Jeff sharing his beliefs with the LDS audience. I don't see his vlog as insincere; rather, he genuinely seeks to understand Latter-day Saint perspectives before sharing his own. His honest effort to grasp our views is rare among Evangelicals, who often remain firmly entrenched in their own beliefs. It's fair to allow him to share his beliefs once he has demonstrated genuine understanding of ours.
Then why did Jeff say on another video that he is not looking to know if The Church of Jesus Christ of LDS is true or not...that he is not going to pray to receive a confirmation of it's veracity? What then is the point of trying to understand the Church?
@@yunginspirit3162The point is Jeff wants to build a friendship and respectful relationship with you. He doesn’t have to marry you to be your friend.
@@yunginspirit3162I think he also believes that that’s not how you receive truth. And he’s backed up his belief with scripture. I appreciate him wanting to befriend LDS for the sake of knowing and loving the people
Best comment I've seen a while on this channel
@@yunginspirit3162that’s an interesting point.
The main thing people need to remember with this and all videos is this is a Pastor talking to a member of the church who does podcasts and write books but is NOT a spokesman for the church. It is his opinions. And if he wants to word stuff to make him feel less peculiar thats fine.
However, the scriptures are plain. We will be joint heirs with Christ. We will have ALL the Father has.
David Butler is my favorite!! He teaches the scriptures in a way that really resonates with my way of learning!! I am on my 5th year of following his TH-cam Channel, "Don't Miss This"!! I started watching "Don't Miss This" the last time we were studying The Book of Mormon as a Church. Then I went through The Doctrine & Covenants, The Old Testament, and then The New Testament last year, and now this year back to The Book of Mormon. Jeff, I really still wish that you would continue to read & PRAY about The Book of Mormon, and start watching David's videos about it!! I learn so much from David's videos!! But the ONLY way you will ever know if it is true is through The Holy Ghost, who bears witness of all truth!! And the only way that will happen is through SINCERE READING & PRAYER & ASKING!! It starts with a desire to want to know!!!
...it makes sense that you would feel this way as you are coming form an LDS view.
Outside of the LDS belief system, Christians don't pray to know if a book or artifact is true. They pray for wisdom! James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." James encourages us to pray for wisdom!
If you continue reading in James he says, "...the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy." James 3:17
We do pray of course for guidance and wisdom, but we always cross check our feelings with the Bible. If we only go on our feelings only, we might be mislead. "The heart is deceitful above all things..." Jeremiah 17:9
For example, if a couple said they prayed and felt the spirit tell them they should start having sex before they are married, you might say no! that's not the Holy Spirit. How would you know this? Because it is contrary to what the Bible/scriptures teaches us. But if they prayed and the Spirit told them, shouldn't they do it? Most Christians would reference the Bible as their source for God's truth.
So, how do we know the Bible is true? We believe the Bible because it is a reliable collection of historical documents, written by eye witnesses and other witnesses of eye witnesses of the supernatural events that took place in fulfillment of prophecy.
How do we know it's a reliable collections of historical documents? There are over 5,000 Greek manuscripts and 10,000 Latin manuscripts of the New Testament, . The Tanakh (Old Testament) we have hundreds of manuscripts, the Dead Sea Scrolls being the most commonly sited. With all of these manuscripts, we can see with amazing clarity what words were used and determine their accuracy. This is why no one prays to know if the Bible is true.
I hope this might shed some light as to why someone outside of your church might not feel it necessary to just pray about the Book of Mormon.
@@BGCflyerWe pray for wisdom as well?😊 James 1:5 as you know is "our scripture " that is loved most dearly by our people. It leads us to seek for wisdom always. It would lead someone like Joseph Smith to do that very thing. But anyone seeking to know if The Book of Mormon were a second witness of Jesus Christ would have to be humble and child-like enough in spirit to seek and find out for themselves.
Is not wisdom found in ALL subjects of Gods scriptures? each of us have gifts that many others don’t, just as the body has arms, legs, head, feet, belly.. wisdom is a gift from God, yet only Father, Christ and Holy Ghost are all encompassing of wisdom, we as mortals are given parts, our part, like the feet, like the hands, like the head, yet here again Ppl limit Gods ability for us to understand his blessing and knowledge he’s prepared for us, if we are true and faithful. Job 37: 16 16 Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?
@@hearviewb123ontarget yes!! Exactly
Wait a minute. The guest chose to take the easy out on progression. The church clearly claims we go to the temple to be like God. It's doctrine
I have been a Hello Saints follower from rhe beginning. I enjoy these videos a lot. However, I have realized there is a growing frustration in me as I continue to watch. I now realize that the frustration comes from the format. Pastor Jeff, it is one thing to ask a Latter-day Saint about what we believe about heaven and a completely different thing to read the source. We believe that Jesus Christ spoke through Joseph Smith as a prophet. Please read the words of an all knowing all powerful God and then discuss that. I now get anxious with every video where the ideas are discussed and (what we consider) the words of God are ignored. Please read D&C 76 and see what God had to say on this subject. Go to D&C 88 and see what God said about how the law we live affects the kingdom we inherit. The people you talk with may have good explanations and may state things well, but I don't think they would even want to compare their explanations to God's. Please please please adapt your format to go back to reading the scriptures. Then discuss after.
...so I agree that I liked it when he was reading the scriptures and then commenting. Would you say the final authority of God's truth is in the scriptures? or in Church leadership?
@@BGCflyer Wow. This is interesting for me. I have rarely (maybe 3 times) commented online. And I have never had someone move the conversation forward. So BGCflyer I think this is a great and insightful question. I think it is asking at the root of what this channel is about. And why I have watched every video. Where do we find God's truth? And how you asked it was really good as well, where is the "final authority" on God's truth? So here is my humble opinion: There are a few core beliefs that all of this is built on. First, that there is a God. Second, that he knows all things. Third, that he is good/righteous; specifically, the belief that he would/could never lie. So, if God actually knows all things and would/could never lie then anything that he says can be trusted 100%. It has to be truth. And a person can build the best life on that truth, so it is vital to learn it. So, to specifically answer your question I would say that anything we have that has God’s actual words is the final authority of God’s truth (known as the Word of God or God's Word). Now this is easy when the words are coming out of God’s mouth. That is obviously his words and can be relied on 100% as truth. But can he also send an angel to speak exactly the words God would say or wants said? Or can he have a prophet say his words? Can he have someone like Moses tell a story like the freeing of the children of Israel and that story be what he wants to tell us? There are lots of scriptures that indicate that the answer is Yes. But this is where it gets more difficult and this is where people get divided. And in the end, this is where many will find out that they have been deceived. This will be the ultimate blind-side hit that will take place for many. Many will be beyond shocked and stunned and will be in disbelief that what they thought, No, what they KNEW was true, was not. Christ himself explains this in the Sermon on the Mount (God’s own words out of his mouth). Matthew 7:22:23 “Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me ye that work iniquity.” This is why this is the most serious of topics. Christ is saying there will be many who thought they were doing his work and serving him but he will show them that they were leading people astray and what they were actually doing was taking people away from him. So, we will all be held accountable, in the most ultimate of ways, for what we believe is truth and is the Word of God. Some will find out that they succeeded and actually knew God and he knew them. Others will find out that they were wrong and deceived. This is where the final component comes in: The spirit. I think the spirit makes all the difference. If you read something that claims to be the Words of God and you will be held accountable for how you receive it, then you have to follow the spirit. That is why I think it is more important for them to read the scriptures than to discuss the beliefs found in those scriptures. We will all stand before God one day and be held accountable for everything we did in this life. If someone reads D&C 76 or D&C 88 instead of just talking about the concepts held in them, they have to determine if they believe that these are actually words of God or not. They have to listen to the spirit and follow it or not. That is the essence of our religion. We believe these things not because someone taught us the doctrine but because we believe they are the Word of God. Because we read them and the spirit told us of their truth. And in the end, we will stand before God and find out if we followed the spirit and what it told us was truth or if we were deceived. So to answer your question more precisely: I think the final authority on God’s Truth is God’s Word confirmed to us by his spirit. (Wow, that ended up as a little discourse. I thought I was just going to hurry and reply.)
@@ryanegbert ...Ryan, that was an excellent reply. Very thoughtful and sincere. I would agree with you that scripture confirmed by the Holy Spirit is the final authority as to God's truth.
So how do we determine that a writing is scripture? How do we know what we are reading is reliable and historical?
@@BGCflyer Again, an excellent question. I am fascinated with this discussion. And again, here is my opinion. I think (as crazy as it might sound to some) that something being reliable and historical doesn’t matter at all. This is a matter of faith. Evidence is not required. Does something from God have to have historical and reliable evidence for its existence? What if there is no reliable and historical evidence, does that mean that it is no longer of or from God? Does God have to provide and maintain historical and reliable evidence along with his word to verify it? So, I think it is up to us, through using the spirit, to determine whether something is of God or not. And in the end, we will all be judged on how we did. In the end, we will all find out whether what we believed was the word of God (and our interpretation of it) was actually his words or whether we deceived ourselves. light knows light. Truth knows truth. I think of the story of Vincenzo Di Francesca. He found a book with no name. He knew of no evidence of its historical veracity or the reliability of it. But he read it. Felt it was of God. Then prayed and felt that the spirit confirmed it was of God. Then acted in accordance with that belief that he had found new scripture. You can see his story here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincenzo_Di_Francesca (I highly recommend it). In the end, if I believe God has confirmed to me that something is scripture or of him I don’t need evidence from man that it is historically accurate or reliable. If I had an answer through the spirit from God what more evidence do I need?
Ryan, your thoughts are absolutely profound. At this point in time very little is known about what actually takes place in the three heavens. Let's stick with what has been revealed and not get caught up in wild imaginations.
There’s a great LDS Author who used to be a devout Baptist. His Book “Mr Mormon” John S Pennington Uses a great analogy. Of a Football field and 3 degrees of glory. He suggests that anyone on the field is in heaven. There are different parts of the field though. A quarterback is going to be spending a lot of time and have more responsibility than some other players on the field. How much time and responsibility you want dictates where you are on the field.
Not completely a “apples to apples” comparison but it’s a decent one.
I love David Butler. He is such a positive human being. I wish I could emulate.
26:49 reminds me of one of my favorite song "Jesus, joy of man's desiring", from my favorite musician Johann Sebastian Bach who one said: "The aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul."
Amen to that!
I’m sorry to say this, but as a Latter Day Saint, I don’t think our follow brother David did a great job of representing church teachings on these subjects. There isn’t as much uncertainty and division as he would make it seem. Although we know very little still of the afterlife, the gospel is very clear in these matters for what we do know, and the prophets and apostles have given additional clarification which can be viewed as scripture.
I agree! I think Pastor Jeff should now have this same conversation with Emily Freeman or Brad Wilcox. I think they can explain much more clearly the Church's stand on these gospel truths!
Listen to Pres Oaks recent talk on what defines core doctrine. You may realize it’s not nearly as descriptive nor prescriptive as you may perceive. David distinguished well between what may be scripture vs what may be doctrine. They are not one and the same.
I disagree. I think David was spot on. I would elaborate, but David put it into words better than I can.
@@marnold2777not all scripture necessarily constitutes as doctrine, but all doctrine is addressed in one way or another in the scriptures, i.e. the standard works. As members of the Church, we tend to use the word scripture almost as vaguely as we use the word heaven.
Agreed. David is playing his part of LDS TH-cam apologist well by avoiding and deflecting hard questions like men becoming gods, polygamy in heaven, and other harder topics. The church is trying to become just another denomination of Christianity and is distancing itself from what it teaches. However growing up these were things taught openly and proudly. I was told I would become a god. Period. This is doctrine because it was taught by prophets. Stop denying this is what is taught.
“Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject.”
-Joseph Smith
Joseph also said the Book of Abraham papyrus was true. And that turned out to be false.
@@Sirach144 Have you ever known scientist and scholars to be wrong?
We do not care about Joseph smith
@@Sirach144 That's not the slam dunk statement you think it is.
@@stephtimms1776
Yeah, but the scientist and the scholars aren’t saying they’re getting their wisdom from God and claiming that God told them. A prophet and a scientist or two different things.
Adam and Eve were joined in marriage before they fell. Would that not indicate the intended purpose for an eternal marriage? Why not join them after the fall if marriage was only a temporally ordained union? Adam and Eve freely enjoyed God’s presence *while* being married prefall. Marriage will not replace a fulfilling relationship with God. It’s not a replacement, it’s a *gift* from Him for our enjoyment, and growth.
It seems strange that we would follow a pattern of family here, but not in heaven. I do not lose anything between my parents and I because I got married. It enriches our family. The furtherance of the family brings joy and glory. My kids are my glory, my grandkids will be additional glory.
...that's a valid point that they were man and wife in the Garden of Eden.
Coming from an Evangelical perspective here. When we look at the truths taught in the Bible, they need to be consistently true throughout the entire Bible, not just in one verse here or there. So, I think the problem is that Jesus said there will be no marriage after this life in the resurrection, "Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?”Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven." Matt 22:28-30
Jesus was answering the question: to whom will the woman be married? There is no differentiating between sealing for eternity. Even Jesus says, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the POWER of GOD. So, it wouldn't be consistent with the Bible to say there is marriage after this life, since, we will ALL be resurrected right!
That doesn't mean we won't be with our loved ones. If I'm in the presence of God and so is my wife and children, then we ARE together!
Jesus Christ said that no one will be married in heaven.
The only marriage will be that of Christ to his bride the church.
Revelation 19:6-9
Are you looking forward to being married to Christ?
@@BGCflyer I’ll explain how I read this chapter… The Sadducees didn’t believe in a Resurrection… they didn’t know the power of God (nor the scriptures) because they denied this very crucial aspect of the Plan of Redemption. Even by saying people “die” they were missing the point. Jesus says that God is a God of the living, not the dead. They haven’t died. They have merely crossed the veil. Because the Sadducees didn’t believe in this very fundamental aspect, their level of questioning was insincere.. They were trying to trip Jesus up. They didn’t care about the nature of marriage in an afterlife because from where they stood, there was no afterlife.
If we reread the verses just prior to this when the Sadducees were pulling apart the levirate marriage contract (when a woman is passed from brother to brother when one of them dies… thus providing her with protection when her primary husband has died. This being a cultural practice)… the verbiage indicates no new contracts are made in the Resurrection. It doesn’t actually say marriage won’t exist. It’s saying no future unions will occur. “Neither marry nor given in marriage.”
The sealing keys given to Peter bind that which is on earth in heaven. That which is bound can also be unbound by that same priesthood power. Eternal marriages need to be bound by God’s authority before the Resurrection. When they are bound under this proper authority, they will be recognized in heaven. For Latter-day Saints, these sealing keys are given to God’s living Prophet today (as they were given to Peter in Christ’s day) and are utilized in the Lord’s Holy house-the temple.
I understand why Matthew 22 is a sticking point for evangelicals on this issue. To ignore the union of Adam and Eve pre-fall, however, is just de-emphasizing what God originally did. I don’t think Adam and Eve’s transgression was enough to thwart God’s intended will. I believe God made a way for it to be a possibility despite their transgression and subsequent transition into a fallen world. He made it possible through the sealing keys!
I don’t disagree with the deeply intimate relationship we will have with Christ as the bridegroom and we, the Church, as His bride. The symbolism is impactful and powerful… especially for those who suffer in marriages where abuse occurs. We are assured that not even Christ will commit such atrocities, nor will He ever abandon us. And that our union with Him will be incredibly fulfilling. 100% I believe this. I don’t view eternal marriages as something to replace this relationship at all. Just as much as I don’t think my current marriage is a replacement for my personal relationship with Christ now. I believe marriage is a *gift* given by God to help us progress and become what He knows we can become.
@@jlewis8145 I wrote a comment above. Eternal marriage with a spouse doesn’t replace our eternal marriage to Christ (which is incredibly symbolic of the type of relationship we will have with Him in the eternities). It’s not a replacement nor really a direct comparison. Eternal marriage is a gift. My marriage now doesn’t replace my relationship with Christ today any more than it will in heaven.
We are looking forward to Christ's return in glory and dwelling with Him on earth in the New Jerusalem (Zion). Heaven is the firmament/dome above us...and actually there are heavens.
In the LDS community, we’re still navigating how to balance embracing new revelations in this restoration era while staying true to the core doctrines largely shared amongst Christianity.
Sometimes, we can get overly enthusiastic about modern revelations, which if we’re not careful, we may overextend beyond our foundational doctrine in Christ. I agree with David, that it’s more the cultural mythology/zeitgeist that causes this to happen both inside and outside the church.
Both the Bible and the Book of Mormon suggests that prophets might be limited in the revelations they share because we haven’t fully grasped what we’ve already been given. These respectful interfaith discussions encourage us to solidify our shared beliefs and unite across denominations in unexpected ways. I personally didn’t realize that the promised gathering of Israel would be such an interdenominational endeavor but now it seems obvious that it would be that way. Keep up the great work Pastor Jeff!
Building bridges between happy Christians! Jesus Christ is thrilled, I’m sure! All done in love, charity, and genuine integrity. Walk across the Bridge of humanity and engage, be friends and enjoy one another’s company! There is much to be gained for all concerned. Amen!
Actually the Bible tells us not to mix with false believers. He says to coke out from among them and be ye seperate.
@@Sirach144
Would you then say that what pastor Jeff is doing is mixing with false believers by having these discussions? And that this is going against the bible? It just seems to me this is a good thing. I have a hard time believing that this isn't something that God would want to see his children doing. Perhaps you could expound more on your biblical understanding on this.
@@kenhuntley6575
Discussion isn’t the same thing as worshipping together and just trying to be harmonious. Paul and Jesus called out false religions and even debated people.
@@Sirach144 - do you mind sharing your faith or denomination of religion? Are you a Latter Day Saint?? Just curious, for the record. You see, I am a Christian. I have been all my life. Yes, I was baptized at 3 weeks old (that’s a BIG CLUE!). I was raised in a Christian household, was taught to pray, to read the Bible, and to imitate Jesus Christ on this earth. My parents raised me to respect others: people of different ethnic backgrounds, different religions, different socio-economic status, babies, children, elders, the aged and afflicted, physically challenged, all of humanity! They taught me ALL of the commandments, especially to love my neighbor as myself. Just what does that mean to you??? They taught me to be charitable to my neighbors and to those I do not know! What does that mean to you??? What Bible do you read? What scripture teaches you to separate yourselves from others??? Gosh, even Mother Theresa (a Catholic Nun!), gave food, love, dignity and shelter to the suffering and dying (most of which were Hindus!). Do you believe Mother Theresa was imitating Jesus and His commandment? So what again is your definition of a Christian??? Let’s get it right, okay?!
@@kenhuntley6575 - unless otherwise noted, and I am proud to acknowledge, I am Christian (my belief) and I am Catholic (means universal) which is my faith. In my church, I am allowed to partake of the Sacrament of Communion (the Eucharist). In my faith, I am allowed to go to other churches, and denominations, to visit and to worship, but I’m not allowed to take the Sacrament of Communion except in a Catholic Church. I honor that. Likewise anyone is welcome to come to a Catholic Church to visit and experience the worship style (called the Liturgy), but cannot take the Holy Communion unless a confirmed, professed Catholic. People are often born into a faith, whether Jew, Christian, etc., or they convert. We all have the right to our preferred faith, our professed belief and still want to be friends with those that might worship, pray, believe slightly differently than we do. The greatest thing is to be able to sit down at a table, share a meal and break bread together with respect for others. It’s called loving one another!
This guy laughing off the doctrine of becoming a god over other planets is sad. That is what we've all been taught. He's afraid of what we actually believe, trying to soften our doctrine.
What!? Idk what you’ve been taught lol but the exaltation doctrine is not so cut & dry and there’s much speculation that we don’t definitively know / and will not know until we receive the rest of it on the Lord’s timing. However , I do think this brother beat around the bush instead of being truthfully honest/blunt
Being a God of other planets is reductive of what exaltation is understood to be in our doctrine.
@@markstenquist2315 reductive, and simply stated. Don't beat around the bush.
I liked David’s response when asked about saving ordinances. Saving ordinances mean nothing if not preceded by faith and repentance. David also alluded to Christ’s atonement being the foundation of our salvation. It is tiresome to hear people accuse us of being a works-based religion.
@natedawg2030 how do you believe you become righteous?
@@tatiakey2735 Through the atonement and obedience to the gospel. Next question
@@natedawg2020 I have heard Christians accuse members of the COJCOLDS of believing in works-based salvation, and as I have studied with the elders and sisters missionaries, I can see that this is an unfair accusation.
However, what the missionaries have described to me is a works-based righteousness, as in: one’s own obedience makes one righteous. I asked them point blank, and they said your righteousness is based on your own work of obedience. Is that what you are saying? Do you understand it differently?
As an orthodox Christian, I believe that it was *Jesus’** obedience that makes me righteous, and He offers me His righteousness as a free gift. It’s called “imputed righteousness” and is based on belief.
The missionaries have described to me an analogy that we will go to the heaven that we are appropriately dressed for, we would not feel comfortable being over- or under-dressed. I believe Jesus has gifted me His own righteous attire, Isaiah 61:10 says “10I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness”
When I say that I trust in Jesus, I mean that I trust not only His example of how to live, but I also trust in the work He did for me vicariously as my substitute. It’s called “The Great Exchange” - he took my sin and gave me His righteousness.
Romans 5:17-19, 9:30-10:
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so **by the obedience of one** shall many be made righteous.
30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
1Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about ** to establish their own righteousness** have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
2 Corinthians 5:21 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
Does that help you understand at all what a Christian might mean by “works-based religion”? Is there a better way we could say the same thing, but cause less offense? Is there anything you’d like me to understand better or differently about this topic from the perspective of a member of the COJCOLDS?
Pastor Jeff…i would love to see you speak to converts to the Church. My family were generational Methodists. We were ready for the Gospel restoration story and immediately embraced it when I was 16. I would love give you the converts perspective and understanding of the Church
THIS!
When the Latter Day Saint person talked about the celestial room in the temple where we have pierced the veil and get a taste of gods presence. When I went through the temple to receive my endowments in 1999 I thought the celestial room was pretty but I didn’t feel this overwhelming sense of Gods presence, it just felt like any other room.
Oh I love this ! Love David Butler ❤. Glad you guys got together !
I’m LDS and I’m glad someone is experiencing what our religion instead of persecuting us 🙃
I’m always interested in these types of persecution comments when every single LDS missionary tells me to my face that my faith is inferior to their faith. Please I’m suggesting that you have respect for the beliefs of others.
@@Zeett09 i don’t think you understand what I was trying to say, what I meant is that whenever someone not of my religion (LDS) finds out I’m LDS they make assumptions and judge based on media and false information. I respect all beliefs and don’t look down on other religions.
@@Strawberry_shark don’t get me wrong I think highly of LDS people in general but every single LDS person tells me my Catholic baptism is invalid and “unauthorized”. I would never say that about any other faith. I get it you believe my faith is inferior to your faith. I just do not believe that. I have never thought nor will I ever think that the LDS faith is inferior to my faith. I wish the LDS faith would be equally respectful.
Please let those in the Middle East today. Know how you were persecuted. You don’t know what persecution is. Have you ever seen someone’s head cut off? That’s persecution. Not calling out false beliefs. I guess Jesus was a persecutor of false believes and Paul.
@@Strawberry_shark
Media? Your own church says that the book of Abraham doesn’t say what it says on the papyrus.
This was a great conversation. One thing I would humbly add is that the idea of heaven being a restoration of the Garden conditions where humans were in the presence of God is correct, but in Evangelical views this is ignoring the simple fact that when God created that initial place, he placed man and woman together in an immortal state, or in other words to live together forever because it was not good for man (or woman) to be alone. They are meant to be one. We are so sure of our individuality that we don't understand that the greatest reward of Heaven is not meant for individuals, but for unions... for individuals that are able to reach past their selfish, ego centered boundary of existence to unify with others. A couple like Adam and Eve are the prototype of the unit that presents itself as a selfless being (two made one) into the presence of God. The eternal companionship of sealed couple is not two people, but one in Christ.
Latter-day Saints:
(5 - Heavenly Kingdoms of Glory)
☀️ Celestial (high)
☀️ Celestial (mid)
☀️ Celestial (low)
🌙 Terrestial
✨ Telestial
Other Christians:
(5 - Heavenly Crowns of Glory)
👑 Incorruptible
👑 Rejoicing
👑 Glory
👑 Righteousness
👑 Life
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Just as other Christians believe we will receive 5 heavenly crowns of glory at the Judgment Seat of Christ, Latter-day Saints believe we will receive 5 heavenly kingdoms of glory. Whether we view these awards Kingdoms, Crowns, Mansions, Inheritance, or our glory that glorifies the Father. We are really talking about variance of the same thing.
Latter-day Saints and Christians can come together as one when we can open our minds to the reality that everyone is just trying to make sense out of all these things. Joseph Smith revealed that our awards will be based on the condition of ones heart, opening the door to all mankind.
Only one kingdom.
Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
I can see David from Don’t miss this is holding back. A lot to be said here about family. Some people are not ready to hear. Great convo though!
Why hold back? Is it shame? Uncertainty? Fear of rejection?
Speaking to the idea of traditional Christianity having a 'truncated' view or understanding of what comes after (or even before) this mortal life, I like an analogy of maps of the world from Europeans before they learned about the American continent - not necessarily inaccurate for what it shows, but not the whole picture. And that by missing the whole picture, it leads to applying aspects of the plan that are about parts beyond the map, to parts that are on this incomplete map. And that may also affect the way we interpret aspects of what we do see, because we don't have the full context
…I like your analogy using maps.
I think truth is when the actual earth and the map are in complete agreement.
So, how do you know if a map is accurate?
Please elaborate. Your view of heaven doesn’t align with what Jesus said. Anything in your religion necessarily has to 100% be supported by the Bible.
You believe you will be with not just your earthly wife and family but potentially many more (because that’s how Joseph’s Myth liked to roll) and rule over kingdoms.
Jesus said in Matthew 22:30 “For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."
Please make this make sense. Two completely incongruent statements. One from the Bible, the second completely opposed to it.
when the Bible says "God created the heavens and the earth," the reason they used that phrase is that there is no Hebrew word for universe. It's NOT establishing demarcation of what we think of as heaven (where God is and where we are) , but it basically means everything in the universe that is NOT earth.
Do you have any proof to back that statement up?
@kylehansen639 There is nothing in the Bible that differentiates heaven in the context of everything above earth and the heaven where God dwells except for expressions such as "heaven heaven" and the "third heaven", only non Biiblical interpretations exist to suggest that the heaven God exists in is different from the one we refer to as "outer space" in modern terms.
As for your other question about matter being eternal, that is supported by the law of Conservation of Matter, which teaching that matter can not be created nor destroyed but changed from one form to another. The law of Conservation of Energy is the same but applies to energy.
As for the question of whether God has a body of flesh and bones, yes, did you not read the New Testament? Jesus has a body of flesh and bones. I'm confused as to how you find that confusing if you believe Jesus is God.
There is a place that God dwells, but it is more about a relationship
Your guest is being dishonest about LDS beliefs and teachings . When pushed , Mormons often tend to back away from their positions , because even they are every uncomfortable with them .
“ Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000.”
LDS prophet Spencer W Kimball 1975 general conference
This is the best you can find for someone from the Church to explain heaven, he was clueless. One who knows will not track from one thought to another so incoherently. When I was reading Peter and Peter wrote about the resurrection of Jesus Christ, and this was before I had read the Doctrine and Covenants, I received the revelation at that time that was revealed to Joseph Smith in the 88th section of the Doctrine and Covenants
He's not clueless. He may have interpreted the question differently initially, explaining the variety of possible answers instead of just the afterlife kind of heaven, but he's not wrong (except we do believe we can literally become like God: becoming gods ourselves, creating worlds, eternal posterity).
He has also mentioned he has ADHD, and at least for me, that involves some difficulty keeping your thoughts straight, especially when being asked questions on the fly with answers expected immediately. Not everybody is polished and perfect, and that's important to recognize. It doesn't diminish the accuracy of his explanations. If you watch his Don't Miss This podcast, he's more polished and I love how he explains things and teaches them.
I evacuated the lds church because nobody could answer the real questions. The answers I did receive did not provide any assurance. I am still finding all the puzzle pieces in the Bible, which completely checks out btw. I recommend that pastor Jeff and any person from the mormon church he interviews should read James R Spencer's books, whether on mormonism or the temple. The truth is childlike simple. Truth without love is too hard but love without truth is too soft. My dear brothers and sisters still in the lds church, l love you and I encourage you, you must be born again to enter heaven... The holy spirit comes by faith. He cannot be confirmed on you with false authority. Read God's word, which is only the Bible, no disrespect ment. Time is short and the Lord is not coming to Missouri.. And to pastor Jeff, you brother know time is short and you do love the saints, please stand firm telling them the truth so they will be with us in heaven.
I’m a never Mormon, these thoughts are interpretation not what I have learned from other LDS members. The three tiers of heaven is not scriptural. You either accept Jesus as your savior or you do not, there is no, “you were good but not good enough for the highest level of heaven”. I’ve also heard from many LDS members, “as man is God was, as God is man can become”, have I been lied too? My God was never a man, He has always been God.
Here is my thoughts only, many of Joseph Smith’s revelations were self serving. It seems as if he made it up as he went along.
I can be tolerant of all others faiths but I am uncomfortable encouraging or giving credence to false teachings.
...wait what? The Lord is NOT coming to Missouri?.....ahhh dang it!
❤
Fantastic thoughtful conversation. Loved every minute of it.
I watch this video and was disappointed in the guests behavior. He had a real opportunity to share simple truth and came across as timid and hesitant. At one point I was not sure if he was indeed Latter Day Saint. I’ve never heard of him and I can’t say for sure. I understand he was probably trying to diminish the possibility of information shock value of his statements or answers to questions but he didn’t do anyone justice by it. The gospel is absolutely firm on doctrine. The next steps are building on those precepts and having the understanding deepen. Some of the things he said were off, or it was one of the times he was being hesitant. The three degrees of glory is spoken about in the Bible, baptisms for the dead are mentioned in the Bible. Many things and details were lost either in translation or on purpose of by people in the past trying to guide doctrine. The spirit is much more likely to testify truth when it is presented fully and in confidence. It is nice to see such civil discussion between different faiths.
We didn’t get to see the whole presentation. It was cut off so you don’t know what else David said.
He is a member of the church. He and Emily Freeman did come follow me podcasts.
I don't think he was being timid at all but simply demonstrating our beliefs in a fellowshipping tone. There is no need to double down on certain doctrinal points that have different perspectives. He's absoulutely correct to take caution on specific detailing of degrees of glory because a lot of the cultural beliefs that get passed around are tied to heavy speculation and not rooted in the scripture. We can have different opinions of what it may be but the doctrine is absolutely what we should stick to when sharing the gospel with others.
@@Vetionarian thank you, I understand your point. I think we can agree it’s best to use the spirit to guide our words. I don’t believe the spirit was able to be present during their interview. I rarely share gospel doctrine unless I’m asked or urged by the spirit. I tend to just focus on being a example and it brings out people with a prepared heart and questions. Either way, it was good to see civil discussion
Apples and Oranges in beliefs and opinion which is excellent. We don’t just believe in the Bible and I constantly try to explain that to my Christian friends that want me to prove my belief within the Bible. The point of this life is to be happy and to glorify God. We’re all very blessed to be here and to have the atoning sacrifice of His Son Jesus Christ. In the end, I want to be just like our Heavenly Father. When and how that happens or how long it takes doesn’t matter. My goal is constant progression via the sacrifice of Jesus Christ and I hope we can all take that approach on a daily basis in our daily repentance.
You need visuals for this discussion so everyone can understand. As a Latter Day Saint I find this discussion to be vague and confusing for anybody new to these concepts. That being said, it’s amazing this conversation even happened! I applaud 👏 all efforts for genuine understanding between faiths ❤
Dave Butler and Pastor Jeff??? YES!!!
Best conversation on this channel so far. Loved it!
This summer you should do a video about FSY. Its a church camp for LDS youth and its really cool!
This was so great!! Thank you!!
It is not good that man should be alone. I feel this applies to Heaven also.
and we won't be in relationship with God. We will never lack for, or want for, anything else. We will be made whole.
The Celestial Kingdom will be wonderful indeed.
We will be Christ’s Bride. We won’t be alone.
I'm a Latter-day Saint and I don't know who he is, but I'm also not in the Utah Bubble. I'm in SE Tennessee. I wish Pastor Jeff would talk with Hank Smith or John Bytheway.
David Butler does Don't Miss This, a podcast like Hank Smith's, focusing on Come Follow Me. He's not just Utah saint.
The way I think of it is that the degrees of glory are like colleges or universities. The Celestial Kingdom is the greatest space for learning, for creation, and for joy. The other degrees of glory are good, but not as expansive and exhilarating at the Celestial Kingdom. I think we will be where we're ready to be.
Been LDS my whole life. I have no idea who David Butler is.
A person who lives in Utah, was/is a seminary teacher and does the Don’t Miss This youtube videos with the now young woman’s president Emily Freeman. Her daughter took over with David on that
David does well in Come Follow Me lessons, however, I think Greg Matsen could field your questions with much better detail and reasoning in this situation. My $0.02 worth....
For Latter-day Saints, heaven isn't about "getting our own planet" (which isn't actually taught by the church)-nothing we inherit as heirs of God is "our own," as if we go off to a corner of the universe where God is absent and we start doing our own thing. As exalted beings, we are in the eternal service of God, following the Father's will in all that we do, having become one with him (John 17:20-23). Exaltation means we are in eternal service to others. It's not about our own personal egos-it's exactly the opposite.
The problem with your statement is that it actually was taught by the church. Maybe it isn’t now but it was. You can’t just brush that aside. Why did they teach that? Is that wrong? If so, why was it wrong? If so, how could “a prophet of god” teach something so dastardly wrong and wicked? These aren’t just to be brushed aside in parentheses. These are doctrines your leaders have taught and mormons have to reconcile why these unbiblical ideas were (and some that continue to be) taught by men who supposedly “talked to god.”
That also opens up the question “well, shoot, if our past leaders were so wrong about so much, what is our religion actually based on? Polygamy? Racism? Hmm, what else were they wrong about? If they weren’t actually speaking to god, but our leaders today say they speak to god, are they lying? How do we know they’re speaking to god? What could they be lying about? Is this whole thing actually just a fantastical story made up by a swindler and con man?
This member has a different take … th-cam.com/video/_Kv-sbEF6Jc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=545HfXYxBp9fNXjL
Pastor Jeff always seems to imply that marriage and being in the presence of God have to be mutally exclusive. Why is it so hard to think that both can be true simultaneously?
Because Jesus clearly says we won't be married in heaven
Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."
Christians actually follow the Bible not create their own beliefs out kf whole cloth. The mormon ides of heaven is completely unbiblical.
@@kurtbradwill You (and all of mainstream Christianity) misunderstand this scripture. You are the ones who are trying to give meaning to it without proper authority to decipher it's true meaning. This scripture is saying that once the "resurrection occurs" at that point, there won't be any marriages that are happening. In other words your "marriages" that you enter into while in this life, that are performed by the proper priesthood authority held by Peter, ie the authority to (bind on earth and in heaven) and need to be sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, then those marriages (unions) will be honored for all eternity. These need to take place before the resurrection, because you're right, once the resurrection happens there won't be any new marriages taking place. At that time, it will be too late. The final resurrection is like that last thing to occur before one enters into their eternal glory. You need to have all your relationships secured before the resurrection takes place.
@@jeremytpaul the only problem with your defense is the hypothetical posed by the Pharisees right before. The woman was married, multiple times, even. Who would she be the spouse to?
@@jeremytpaul 😂😂😂 OK sure we'll just throw away 2,000 years of Christian doctrine because Joseph said so
@@kurtbradwill yeah, that’s kind of the nature of prophets. They have been called by God to speak FOR Him! God reveals to his prophets what he wants them to teach to the world at any given time. They are called of God, doesn’t matter if you like it or not, or if it goes against your preconceived thoughts about any particular matter.
Paraphrasing "God will fulfill our needs in His Presence" We just believe that part of that is the institution of Marriage that He has given us, that His commandments have always mattered becuase they will always matter, from the beginning, to the eternities to come.
Two areas of discussion here seem superficial.
1/ Deification. There is no question earlier Church material teaches the idea we will be procreating Gods over our own creations. See Lorenzo's Snow poem, for starters.
2 / Polygamy in Heaven. The last couple of prophets have had plural wives, for heaven's sake. And that leads to a hugely uncomfortable topic: LDS belief in "Heavenly Parents" and heavenly mothers.
Avoiding these topics makes the widespread evangelical apprehension about LDS theology seem strange, whereas there are reasons for it. I applaud the project of establishing Biblical commonality between LDS and evangelicals. But the conversation needs to stay true to be helpful.
Press on!
Plural???
@@reneestewart7977 sealed to more than one woman
@@josephmartin6945 Plural wives means married in mortality to 2 or more wives.... (at the same time) They were not living in a plural relationship.
Thank you! Yes this is so important to speak about.
I always say that heaven is any place where you love everyone and everyone loves you. One of the other things I hear is that mortal life is designed for conversion, and heaven is designed for perfection.
When we talk about God completing and fulfilling us in the hereafter, who’s to say that the ‘mysterious means’ he uses aren’t our earthly relationships? Does that perfection happen all at once or are we continually refined by our interactions with the people who know and love us?
Christ has given to me his perfection as a gift. I have been made perfect.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering Christ hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.
@@jlewis8145 That perfection meaning saved or sanctified, then I agree with you. We do not need to be without flaw or sin in order to be saved. It is a free gift available to all.
I also believe discipleship is a process by which remove our desire to sin by drawing nearer to Christ and his nature. Does this process happen instantaneously when we shed the mortal body? Or do we cultivate that spiritual nature throughout our lives and the hereafter? Honest question.
@@TheBluebayooWhen I repented of my sins and put my faith in Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ forgave me of all my sins and imputed to me his righteousness, which is the righteousness of God. God now sees me as perfect and I can walk out of God's court room free on judgment day because Christ has paid the penalty for my sins in full with his life's blood.
It's called justification where God declares the sinner not guilty.
It's how Abraham and King David made it into heaven. Romans 4
2 Cor. 5:21 God made Jesus, who knew no sin, to be sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
I have peace with God by faith.
Romans 5: 1
Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God. 🕊
There are no levels of heaven for the believer.
When I die, I will immediately be with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor. 5:8 💖
Sanctification is a life long process of being conformed to his image.
Do you believe what Jesus Christ said about God and marriage? "What God has joined together, let not man put asunder." And what are we told about what God does? "I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it that men should fear before him." Ecclesiastes 3: 14. So that means all the marriages that God has put together shall be for ever, according to the Bible.
Jesus himself said that there will be no marriage in heaven. Mtt. 22:23
@@maxstooksberry9458 Correction, Jesus Christ himself said that there would be no marriages performed in the Resurrection, which for most doesn't happen until after the 1,000 years raign of Jesus Christ on earth. Plenty of time for people to be married before that. Look at the wording, "In the Resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage." No mention about them not staying married, especially if that marriage was bound on earth and in heaven using the power Jesus Christ gave his Apostles. As Paul said, "The Man is not without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord."
Matthew 22:30
“For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."
@@kurtbradwill Exactly, "in the resurrection", which for most doesn't happen until the end of the thousand years raign of Jesus Christ on earth, plenty of time for marriages to be bound on earth and in heaven by those Jesus Christ gave this authority Mathew 18: 18. People are always ignoring the qualifiers in the Bible. Like in Ephesians 2: 8, "by grace ye are saved THROUGH FAITH.", "Faith worketh by love." Galatians 5: 6, and "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14: 15 also "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loves me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him." John 14: 21 and finally "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Galatians 5: 14.
Perhaps we should stop dividing the "kingdoms of glory" as place vs place, but think of them as states of being or mind and of association.
The gospel is the means of salvation and the source of priesthood power, atoning grace, revelation, and blessings. It does not require a church organization or mortals to make it true. It is eternal in nature and derives it's truth and power from the Atonement of Christ. The gospel is a divine system of powers, priesthood, and principles that are indeed flawless and can never err. The gospel embraces all truth, and if we understood it fully and flawlessly, we would understand the mind of God and would share His eternal understanding of all things. The gospel can never falter or fail to deliver the promised blessings because the gospel and Jesus Christ are inseparably intertwined.
Actually the heaven that pastor Jeff described in being in God's presence (or Christ's) presence and having a relationship with his wife but not married and without procreating is essentially what the terrestrial kingdom is described as. "In my father's house are many mansions" and you can choose or deside by the desires of your heart and how you choose to live and accept or reject Christ or the truths of his gospel and how you live them and keep your covenants with him. These all determine which kingdom of glory you will obtain. The celestial kingdom is where God the father and Jesus Christ dwell. It is to dwell with God and to become like him. The terrestrial kingdom will receive visits from Christ and be able to be in his presence at times but cannot see the father. In a way they reject the Father but they still believe in Christ. This is the type of heaven that is typical of most evangelical Christian belief and understanding.
The telestial kingdom is those who reject Christ but are still good and descent.....although they may be liers and adulters etc. They are not satanists and they may believe in different Gods, Buddhists, Hindu, Gods etc. Some in Paul and some in Appollos etc. They are unable to see Christ or be in his presence. But they will have the ministration of the Holy Ghost there.
So every will receive what they are willing to receive. Everyone will have a just and beautiful kingdom to dwell in save the extremely wicked who love satan and are cast out into outter darkness and receive no kingdom due to the darkness of their hearts.
Revelation 21 and 22 tell us what heaven will be like. Believers will be all together on the new earth and new heaven serving God and Christ.
God does not separate his children on different levels or planets. No one will be married. Women will not be sharing their husbands with other women for all eternity. The 'other women' will not be separated from their families so they can serve as part of a man's harem of women. The true and living God doesn't damn people who deny the eternal principle of polygamy. (D&C 132)
Heaven is a world of love. God loves everyone, including women.
There is no telestial level of heaven. No terrestrial or celestial level either! ❤
When I die, I will immediately be with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord." 💕
Brilliant! Brilliant! Brilliant!
My husband and I both grew up in the LDS faith. I grew up in Utah and my husband in Arizona. We were both HEAVILY taught that our ultimate goal in this life was to get married in the temple, have lots of kids(that we would get to still be parents to in the next life, somehow?🧐), all while being gods and creating worlds together. You are preaching false doctrine David. I really don’t know what you feel like your purpose is in doing that because every LDS person knows you’re lying and if you got someone to join the LDS church through doing this they would eventually find out it was a lie.
I have been a member for 43 years and never was taught I would have my own planet. Please give me a quote reference stating this, I am not sure there is one?
David is a great down to earth Christ Like Man! 😊
I always love David Buttler, her spirit is always superchraged. 🎉😂
Boy you need to review
Doctrine and Covenants 76
Still reading the Book of Mormon? It’s been 4 months since your last post on your progress Jeff…
@hellosaints I really want to hear about ETHER!! It's pretty epic!
He said in a recent video post with Greg Matsen from CWIC show that he is still reading, but won’t be posting any more videos about it. Not sure why.
Mormon and the Bible believers believe in different Heaven. Mormon's Heaven had at least one Heavenly Mother. the Bible believers' Heaven simply just one eternal God. "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Matthew7:21
Wow. He is very careful to describe and answer the questions without saying fully. This conversation would look so different with someone else that is "in the wool" of believers.
Heaven is a way of life!
My best friend in the entire world is Presbyterian. She told me she doesn't need a temple sealing with her husband because her pastor said the word 'eternity' when they got married, therefore they will be married forever according to her belief. Pastor Jeff, I think you've got to acknowledge that not every congregation in the Christian realm of denominations believes as you do that peeps will just exist as children of God without noted family relationships existing in heaven as they do on earth.
Jesus Christ said that no one will be married in heaven. In fact, Jesus Christ said that he would divide people and families. Matthew 10:34-37; Luke 12:51-53;
The truth naturally divides people. To be worthy of Jesus and eternal life one must side with God's truth even if it divides his own family.
Isn’t it in harmony with the grander and the majesty and the beauty and the glory honor we owe to truest of love for it to be eternal in a marriage, to me, it is the most glorious part of a place called Heaven with God and your family
No!
@@heathermcdougall8023 ok Terrestrial Kingdom is a good place too Jesus visits but those who choose to go there don’t choose to live with Heavenly Father there. That’s your choice. God is just and faithful and righteous and he doesn’t just have two places for the absolute worst and one for everyone else who is mediocre to the absolute best. There are three degrees for reason he won’t make you go anywhere you don’t wanna be. but I testify we have a father in heaven Jesus wasn’t talking to himself. His father in heaven is the father of our spirits and he wants us to come home.
@@heidilehew8264 I'm jut saying that I know you will find lots of other people and of other religions in the very highest level of the celestial kingdom, as it would be totally unjust and God isn;t unjust.
@@heathermcdougall8023 I don’t disagree that there are a lot of people in heaven that didn’t join the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints in this life. That’s what the temple is for to give them that chance. As Jesus Christ was baptized, we all need to be baptized to enter the kingdom of heaven by his authority. and you won’t find any other religion that believes that they all think you have to join their church only to be saved, but what we say is that they need to be baptized by his authority, and I testify that Joseph Smith was visited by angels, and that authority was restored to the Earth, and that is the mission that we have to share Jesus Christ with everyone because we want everyone to have that opportunity to accept a baptism by his authority and be with their families forever
@@heidilehew8264 I don't believe anybody needs baptism to be with the timeless God in the highest levels of heaven. My God is far more powerful than that, and doesn't demand baptism. I respect the fact that you disagree and that your god is a god of flesh and blood and bone and is only eternal. My God is literally timeless, with perfect justice. It would be totally immoral of God to refuse access to HIM, when somebody has lived a truly excellent, loving life of goodness.
The time between individual physical death, the Second Coming, the Millennium, and Final Judgment aren’t given proper attention when discussing Heaven.
Paradise is the state of one’s spirit after death who loved God.
Heaven is participation in Christ’s Millennial reign on a purified Earth (celestial and terrestrial bodies, but not telestial, participate).
Heaven is after final judgment abiding the presence of God the Spirit (telestial glory), or God the Son (terrestrial glory), or God the Father (celestial glory).
Heaven is many things at particular moments in time. LDS fully believe in the Christian concept of union with Jesus. The Terrestrial Kingdom. But because we have such a robust and integrated belief system around priesthood, ordinances, and family, we believe there’s much more involved when it comes to inheriting what God has to offer His children.
At 16:42 in my opinion no matter if there is a sealing to a marriage or not, even regardless of what religious affiliations one might have, if a person is going to marry a widow or widower who dearly loved their first spouse, they have to accept the fact they are sharing that person's heart with someone else. I'm one of those jealous types.I couldn't marry someone who was married previously regardless of how that marriage ended, so I tried to avoid dating women I knew were in those situations.
If humans are the children of God. It makes sense that humans would one day grow up to be like God then have their own worlds and universes.
God is the Father of our spirits. You came from your parents. Human beings were made in the likeness of Adam. Genesis 5:3
Well then they won't be with their family will they? They will be far to busy running a planet and even a universe. So mormon theology is self-contradictory.
@@heathermcdougall8023in the most narrow read, I suppose. Then again, that's true if parents live in a house in the neighborhood with their adult children. They are separate houses, and yet they would tell you they feel like they are "with" their kids. Attempts to place our concepts of space and time certainly seems pretty thin when we talk about omnipotence.
I have no idea who David is…
We all as Christians need to unite together to combat the combined forces against all of us and stop fighting amongst ourselves..A house divided cannot stand!
It is interesting to note that if our mutual agreement on Heaven is being in the presence of our Father in Heaven, LDS doctrine requires one's tithing to even qualify for the privilege and blessing. I suppose that is why the LDS Church is the most wealthiest American church in the land... and most politically powerful as well. I guess you can buy anything in this world with money.
As for heavenly parents, I believe there are now liberal progressive LDS members who wish to pray to their heavenly mother. It is also LDS doctrine that heavenly father has a plurality of wives.
Even so, it seems if an outsider like Pastor Jeff really wants to know about what the LDS faithful believe regarding heaven, then I would highly encourage him to have a conversation with an LDS apostle.
Although, I must admit, Pastor Jeff did a good job of briefly summarizing the Evangelical perspective on heaven and marriage.
It’s not about the tithing that saves us, it’s the obedience to the law. If you do not follow Gods commandments, do you really believe Him? Do you think you will be able to be in His presence if you do not follow Him?
Also, even if you do not pay your tithing and other offerings, you will still be in heaven, just not in the presence of the Father. Maybe in the presence of Christ though
@kennunez5927- Hello. You misunderstand Latter-day Saint doctrine. There are no scriptures or teachings that say God has more than 1 wife. We believe that marriage is ordained of God since the Old Testament in Genesis teaches that God joined Adam and Eve and ordained marriage while they were in the Garden before the Fall. 1 Corinthians in the New Testament teaches that "neither is the man without the woman nor the woman without the man in the Lord." As to your other point, tithes are not a requirement to be in God's presence after death. If tithing were required, living Latter-Day Saints would pay tithing by proxy for deceased persons the same way that we perform other ordinances in the temples for people who have passed away that we believe are required.
@@joeshriver778 Since even Adam and Eve (God's most perfect creatures) could not even keep a simple commandment, I believe it is clear that keeping commandments (perfectly, all the time) isn't what saves us unto Eternal Life. I believe God saves us. It is our faith in what He has done for us, through Jesus Christ, that saves us... and allows us to return to His presence. As for still being in His presence if one does not pay their tithes and offerings, that was not really discussed in this video... although I agree it should have. My sense is that both of them were skirting the doctrine on the lower degrees of glory. Perhaps they will address it in a follow up video.
@@micheleh3851 The doctrine on plural marriage is found in D&C132... and is also a part of the New and Everlasting Covenant. 19th century LDS apostles taught this doctrine often. However, since the practice of polygamy ceased, it is no longer brought up. While the physical reality of the practice has ceased, the spiritual reality was still being verbalized in the temple as of recent years. In fact, even the Proclamation on the Family does not state marriage is between "one" man and "one" woman. It is purposely vague on that "monogamy" point. However, I do appreciate you quoting the Holy Bible.
@kennunez5927 - Polygamy is not a requirement in Heaven. As the guest stated on this video, no one will have more than 1 spouse in the eternities if they choose not to. That is our doctrine. I personally believe very few will choose that, as the majority of Church members have never been in polygamist relationships. Even at the height of polygamy during the time of Brigham Young, about 80% of the population of the Church were in non-polygamist households.
I think the statements from the official LDS website is pretty clear”As man now is, God once was: As God now is, man may be” If God was a man then he once was a liar, thief, adulterer, etc. And so a good Mormon that does all the right Temple acts etc, can become a God, just as their God did. I say “their God” because my God is not a liar, thief, adulterer etc. He was never a man. He never sinned. This is one of many doctrines that make LDS a different religion based on a different God and Christ. Not a continuation of the Jewish, and then main stream Christianity.
Jesus Christ came to this earth as a baby, innocent as all new born nannies. Although He was perfect and remained perfect, He, in a way like us trying to become perfect(not attainable for us in this life) but Jesus had to prove Himself PERFECT IN EVERY WAY, in order to pay the price He and He ALONE PAID in the Garden, then on the Cross and with His Resurrection, broke the bands of death and made it possible for all mankind to be Resurrected as well. He was sinless, but even so, He could have fallen, and I am forever grateful for His sinless, righteous example! Agency is a gift to all mankind and Jesus Christ choose to be sinless. Heavenly Father knew Jesus would make the right choice always, but Father left that choice to His Only Begotten Son to make. I'm so grateful that He lived His life sinless and was willing to go through that terrible suffering for you and me, and all mankind!
This is a strawman. Latter-Day Saints believe that Christ never sinned. We also never claimed any details about God the Father’s life as a man. It is possible that when God the Father was a mortal, he never lied, stole, or committed adultery. I don’t know why you believe being a man necessitates lying, stealing, and committing adultery. You don’t have to persecute us for believing in an absolute atonement.
@@natedawg2020 the last thing I would do is persecute anyone. I’m just trying to get to the truth. Let me leave you with this. I find most people only relate when it hits real close to home. Joseph Smith said he would be a God one day. And let’s face it, if he doesn’t achieve godhood then what LDS member can? Now I’m not going to lay into the 14 year old girls he married, or the other 7 teenagers. I’m not going to talk another the 34 wives in total. Let’s just agree that Joseph smith was a sinner like all of us. He lied at some point. Lusted at some point. And so on. He believed with all his heart he was going to be exalted to godhood and have his own planet. So tell me again how our God in heaven right now is perfect in the eyes of the LDS church. What would lead you to that? Jesus was just the brother of Satan. A created being. Why would you think he wasn’t a sinner prior to coming to the Earth?
@@johnstark-StarkAvionics I said I didn’t know any details about the life of God the Father other than he lived as a man. If you believe in absolute atonement, then you believe in absolute new birth and that sins are literally remembered no more. After becoming God, God has no beginning due to omnipotence over time.
The appeals to ridicule are unnecessary. I’m not going to talk about how ridiculous your beliefs are either.
Im 72 and when I was in the church it wasnt maybe you could become a God and Goddess it was you will become a God and Goddess if you follow the covenant path. It wasn't called covenant path back then. That is a Russell M Nelson phrase. 😂 And there would be polygamy and the women would be having babies to populate your new world. Always sounded more like hell than heaven to me.🤣 But I was told I got to pick the future wives for my husband so I had a few in mind that he wasnt so wild about. 🤣 Now under Pres. Nelson I've noticed the church is trying to come across more mainline Christian. I think that is great because my kids and grandkids are still in. I believe Joseph Smith took the idea of different heavenly kingdoms from Emmanuel Swedenborg. Im sure his books were very popular during Joseph Smiths time. I do believe in total reconciliation so I have NO problem with that. GOD IS LOVE so I do not believe He would torture people for eternity. He expects us to forgive and love our enemies and those that persecute us just as Jesus did on the cross. He will ALWAYS go after His lost sheep and welcome the prodigals home. That is justice and LOVE. ❤
Have the beliefs changed or just now people don’t want to talk about the specifics?
Seems that over the past 50 plus years church leaders have danced around hoping people see the LDSchurch more christian like. In essence trying to fool people. @saralyg
@@saralyg I've heard they have made lots of changes but I don't talk to my kids about it. When you leave the church people in the church do not want to know why or talk about it. You can lose family relationships if you do. We all live in Utah except my daughter. My kids love the Mormon culture of Utah. It is VERY organized and Mormons are very friendly. I don't think God gives a hoot what church you go to. There are soooo many to choose from. It's about relationship not religion. Jesus is the WAY (LOVE) the TRUTH ( Love God, Love Others), and the LIFE (he defeated death on the cross for ALL of Humanity) so we can ALL spend eternity in a pain free, peaceful over the top beautiful place. It's hard for me to imagine a more beautiful place than this AMAZING earth.❤️
Amen and amen. Trying to hide and obfuscate from their own doctrine and history.
Brother Jeff, a very cool thing to do would be to tour Welfare Square in Salt Lake City. Pleeeeeeseee, for all the feels, grab David Boice and Steve with MBR and have a tour.
We don't know if anyone will be eternally sealed to multiple spouses or not. The purpose of being sealed to another spouse may have just been so their kids be born under the covenant in this life and so the spouse could enter the patriarchal priesthood in this life. Polygamy could be only a mortal practice when allowed by God for His reasons. In other words, it hasn't been revealed if there is ANY polygamy in the eternities. Another note, a woman can be sealed to another man after she dies so that she can choose in the next life. There is even a church history story of a woman who became a plural wife (and had children with the husband) after her fiancé died crossings the plains, and the prophet allowed her to be sealed to her fiancé after she passed away. Any church member who claims we will have polygamy in the next life is stating their opinion, not doctrine.
I guess you could say it’s my opinion that the sealing ordinance states that man and wife will be sealed for time and eternity. No mental gymnastics or opinions are required when it’s explicit in the definition. It seems more correct to believe that eternal polygamy is more likely possible than impossible.
I think polygamy sounds terrible. The part I always come back to is unless there is an exactly equal number of males and females who qualify for exaltation, someone is going to have to be discriminated against unless there is polygamy in the next life. Maybe there will be an equal number of males and females though and all of them will be monogamous. You are correct that I don’t know that.
I think we will have choice if we would like to continue on with that sealing in the next life. I'll share my experience. I was sealed to my first husband. We were happily married for 27 years and then he fell away. He not only lost his testimony, but completely gave himself over to an evil lifestyle. He wanted out of our marriage & after some feeble attempts at couseling on his part, I gave in & signed divorce papers. I was single for about 8 yrs & dated off & on but still healing. After a horrible date, I told the Lord that if He wanted me to remarry, he ( the man), would have to find me and I stopped dating. I had a dream that summer & I don't usually remember my dreams very well, but this seemed more like a message: I was sitting in a chair with 5 or more ladies dressed in white surrounding me. One of the ladies I remembered vividly. She had blondish hair & bright blue sparkling eyes & she said my name & very joyfully said "the Lord is just waiting to bless you!" And that was it. Odd, I thought. And I tucked that little dream away in my heart & went on with my life. About three months later I met a wonderful man online & we made arrangements to meet, though three states away from each other. We ended up getting married civilly after a short courtship. As I got to know his children and he mine, we both felt like we were each other's kids' parents! As I was going through his wallet one day, looking for something he had asked me to find for him (as he was driving), I ran across an old family photo of his late wife & kids. His wife was the woman dressed in white in my dream! Her face & countenance was just the same and I can't wait to meet her! True story. My husband and I were sealed in the Salt Lake Temple after my sealing to my first husband was broken. Shortly thereafter I received a letter from the First Presidency of the Church signed by Pres. Monson & his counselors saying that my sealing to my first husband had been nullified and that my children (born in the covenant) are entitled to "Celestial Parentage in the Celestial Kingdom" if they remain true and faithful..
I think that if we are to be found worthy to dwell with our Heavenly Father and His Son someday, that emotions like jealousy, competition, possessiveness and such will not be found. How could they be? Part of our progress here on Earth is to rid ourselves of these evil tendencies that we all feel from time to time.
Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."
Meaning that after this life (after we are resurrected) there will be no more new marriages. Thosr who have not found a spouse, and been sealed to them, will not be paired as spouses in the hereafter, but will be ministering angels to those that are husband and wife.
@@nancylowe2692 This is a lovely headcanon with no basis in scripture.
It has been said that we would have all that God Has. What that could mean is that we get a planet/universe/dimension of our own. Is it true, maybe, should that be our focus, no. Our focus is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Repentance, and Following Him, be a neighbor, visit the sick, inflicted, in jail, the widows and widowers, the orphans and so forth. Doing His will with an eye single to His glory.
To your question at 11 minute mark. Yes it is true that only some will be able to progress. It is only those who have eternal marriage.
Regarding eternal marriage, I'd like to quote Romans 1:19 in the New Testament: "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse"
How does that relate to marriage?
@@BGCflyer Man is made for the woman and the woman for the man. The invisible things of God can be understood by His creations, and are clearly seen.
@@SeanLayton I would agree with that
Matthew 22:30
For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."
@@kurtbradwill th-cam.com/video/6Gxbo2npvp4/w-d-xo.htmlsi=SKJCuUuf_DkYCQhH
I may be wrong about this, but my understanding is that in order to enter into the kingdom where God the Father dwells we must be willing to exercise sufficient faith in Jesus to do ALL that the Father asks of us. In exercising that faith I am redeemed through the grace of Christ and eventually sanctified.
If we truly have faith in Christ, we will not shy away from sacrificing or doing whatsoever he requires. To do otherwise is not faith.
God should see that I have faith by my obedience/works. Even if that thing means great personal sacrifice of status or position.
If "Heaven" is defined as being in God the Father's presence/kingdom then only those willing to exercise faith and do His will will be allowed into "Heaven". All others will be somewhere else.