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You say that those things happen to people all the time in certain places. I assume that you are talking about your time in Africa. Could you share some stories? I also believe that I saw miracles more than once in my life. I just didn't realise it at the time.
I loved your explanation. Back in 2017 I attended a peacful rally for family values in my Mexican hometown. We faced a lot of backlash for it, but, by the end of the rally, while we were being dismissed, a massive amount of butterflies passed trough the sky above us. I took it as God nodding at us for standing up for freedom and family. It was July, so it is common to see butterflies, but it was a miracle that there was such a massive amount of them exactly above us as we were wraping up the event.
I was unknowingly involved in a lot of new age practices when I started listening to you. Was baptised a year and a half ago. So much scary activity happened once I started to read the bible. It made me a believer. Thank you Jonathan for being a huge stepping stone on my journey to Christ ❤️
Keep looking, Christisnity is just the beginning of the search. Now its time to dive further, and understand the origins. Time to read Plato. Look to the Dionysian cults and why he was depicted riding a donkey. Why he was a virgin birth of Zeus. Why the worshippers used the Eucharist in their rituals. Why they considered the wine they consumed as “his blood.” Look up Judaism and its ties to Platos “noble lie.” Look into Socrates and how he and many greeks agreed there is a monotheistic representation of God known as “The Monad” which christians lie about being the first progenitors of monotheism. Look into St. Peter and how the Jews consider him a secret agent jew masterfully infiltrating the christians and establishing a Judiasm based religion crafted specifically for Goyim (non jews) in order to normalize the idea of the messiah. This rabbit hole goes much much deeper.
@@BasedRootsSorry, but none of this is in any way related to whether or not Christianity, particularly Orthodox Christianity has the fullness of the truth… just because there are mythological symmetries, or ritualistic symmetries, or whether or not Jews think X, y, or z about Peter or Paul, has absolutely zero to do with whether or not Christianity is true or false.
@@Demetra719he's also just sadly mistaken or purposely lying lol the "monad" isn't Jewish and the Jews of Jesus time didn't believe in that, they had a Single God with Multiple Persons just like God is. Plato is a retard, kabbalists are just neoplatonist Jews, and the enlightenment is based off Gemistos Plethon spreading his nonsense to Italy during Florence council times.
I once had a dream in which a police officer asked to pray for me. But as soon as he put his hand on my left shoulder I became sick to my stomach and buckled to my knees and the police officer's face turned a sickly, obviously demonic green color. I managed to escape him, but then I was aware that I was supposed to have wings. My left wing had been torn off. I woke up feeling very strange and shortly after that I developed something called "axillary web syndrome" or lymphatic cording under my left armpit and up to my elbow. It became extremely painful and nearly impossible to lift my left arm. The thing is, this condition is extremely rare for men to develop and usually only happens after breast cancer operations in women. After researching, I learned that this "cording," which strangely felt something like a guitar string inside my arm, could be broken with quick upward jerking motions and would naturally dissolve once it broke. This method worked and the condition has never returned. So needless to say, you don't have to try to hard to convince me that this stuff happens.
That’s a remarkable story, which I have no difficulty believing. I’m glad it was resolved. I had a friend who was blinded in a car wreck. He always began the story with witnessing some workmen kill a rattlesnake the week before. From then until the accident he said he felt like his eyes were accursed by the sight. You couldn’t convince him otherwise.
“Quick upward jerking motions” sounds almost like flapping a wing…which sounds like something way more than a medical treatment; I would dare say you were breaking a curse and/or exercising some sort of divine healing (not dissimilar to Christ’s healings in the New Testament)
The idea of a disjunct between cause and effect is terrifying. A good horror story would be "The law was passed, but no one remembered signing it. By the time authorities realized that, it was too late..."
@@thebluedanis it possible that the gain being too high is a metaphor of the meaning of reaching to understand miracles? The symbolism of the distorted sound is the difficulty he is having in explaining the topic? Will adjusting a knob on a machine improve his life?
I am not surprised to hear your thoughts on meanings [directly] influencing the world. I see it aligning perfectly with what you’ve shared about your view on Angels and their consciousness (from your discussion of cities, in one of your videos with Dr. Petersson). While I am basically in the group of secular viewers you made reference to, I think it’s good to see you taking the risk of sharing this as I think it helps me see the world better as you see it, which I love. Thank you for sharing, looking forward to more Symbolism breakdowns in the future :)
I know someone who had a kind of similar experience after getting into the occult and learning "black magic". He started having nightmares and hearing scratches in the middle of the night and a breathing like that of a huge feline or something. One day he found huge scratches in the wood of his furniture. He basically converted to Christianity in that moment.
Pageau explaining things like this is why I keep coming here. He answers questions we didn't know we had! How the mundaine is more miraculous than we even WANT it to be...
Jonathan I have to say, this was unbelievable. Ive been an atheist my whole life, always giving a lot of value to the scientific-rationalistic way of thinking. That made me disregard religion as a whole. Theres a lot of value in thinking rationally, but a side of effect of this is usually being closed to the spiritual realm. The amazing thing is, and I have to say at first thanks to Jordan Peterson, I began to realize that the logic and rationale do not breakdown when exploring the metaphysical world, that there is a logic that is structured and can be explored and is real. Now, the old me watching this video would've been like "these are just coincidences'" and not given it second thought. But man, by explaining how the miracle IS the fact that all these "coincidences" care coming together at the same time just completely blew my mind. Thank you.
First comment! This is going to wild, possibly the best title since "Full Frontal Assault on the Enlightenment" which is possibly the best title of anything in centuries. I might nick it for an album title!
Why would we think that principalities cannot have direct physical effects on the world, or that they could not manifest bodies? In scripture angels take on human bodies that can physically eat. The egyptian sorcerers manifest a physical snake. seems to me that angels and demons can manifest body in the world
@@ChaseyBearMagnanimity This is a phenomenon Ive seen on a variety of online personalities, as if nudging is everywhere in those allowed to speak online now. With or without supernatural influences.. sucks, right?
@omalila7399 in the UK we have a governmental unit called the nudge unit otherwise known as the behavioural insights team. Their purpose to influence the public....
@@omalila7399 The US govt. and the globalists have what was informally called (by them) Nudge units. This is describing psychological operations, in this case it would be based in media, to propagandize the public. Online bots are an example of one technique. When Musk bought Twitter for example, influencers on the left lost millions of 'followers' while influencers on the right gained thousands over night. This is just a tip of a larger subject you can research easily... The US and the DoD spent billions in nudging the public to vaccination and lying about 'proven science' like the 6 ft rule being based in research, all disavowed by Fauci himself in following years. These are all verifiable at the simplest level...good luck to us.
Back in 2014, the week I was baptised, I experienced a demonic attack during the middle of the night. I woke up about 3 o’clock in the morning. My room was pitch black and ice cold, despite being summer. I felt a physical darkness looming over me, and it was pushing and crushing down on my chest. I tried to move and speak, but I felt as though my jaw was locked shut. Eventually, I was able to open my mouth and I said, “ in Jesus name, leave.” Instantly, the darkness lifted, and my room no longer felt cold. It was quite a disturbing experience, but I sang hymns to get myself back to sleep. After I was baptised, it never happened again.
@Pomazebog1389 fair question but I once experienced a sleep paralysis episode in which I felt something trying to pull me out of my body, all while lying on my side. It seems that sleeping on your back makes you more vulnerable to sleep paralysis but it's not a given that a different sleeping position protects you.
I had a similar experience: in the middle of the night, I could feel but not see a dark presence in the room, my body paralyzed... But I also began involuntarily and uncontrollably snarling and growling much like a cornered and dangerous wolf that was just about to enter a fight (or flight) scenario. This went on for several minutes as I tried to stand up out of bed, unsuccessfully. After several minutes of struggling to stand or speak, I heard a voice saying "only God can save you." Then shortly after, I was no longer snarling like a dog and I could finally stand up. I wasn't religious at the time, but it came after a night of me spending a couple of hours going over the story of Cain and Abel, trying to articulate all of the symbolism/metaphor I could find, feeling very moved by the story and every bit of motivated to change the way I engage with the world (since my life was currently a mess due to unconsciously acting out the spirit of Cain for years prior.)
That example of the person who is delusional and paranoid, seeing enemies which are not there. Isn’t that in a strange way, also an attack from a principality?
I was thinking the same. What I understand is that even if you can explain the mechanical causes of a phenomenon it doesn't mean that you can dismiss it as a ''non-miracle''. God's Providence made those mechanical causes happen at a certain place and time that was spiritually meaningfull to an individual. With that understanding, why would you dismiss mental illness as a source of ''revelation''? Most people are not mentally ill and most mentally ill people do not have spiritually meaningfull experiences. Even if you can understand the mechanical causes of your vision during your mental crisis I do not see why it should be dismissed as a ''non-miracle''.
@@LapinskasLukas Why not? People can lie to themselves without even realizing they're lying to themselves, so why can't they see things that aren't there by an analogous process?
@@LagMasterSam I’m unsure how to work with this particular analogy. But if you saw something, how can you say it wasn’t there? You just saw it with your own eyes. It might not be there anymore, sure, but it was there when you saw it. If it was not there then you would have never seem it. Jonathan has addressed this before in a podcast.
Pageau’s podcast is my favorite. He can hang with the best of them in a non-threatening and conversing way. Of which, I see Christ embodied within him and his work.
This reminds me of when I purchased a guitar 30 years ago and I said "Wait a minute, the strings are rusty". The salesmen replied "No, they've just got a bit of rust on them". I remember noticing hiw effective that was in neutralising my objection. I realise now he simply restated my meaningful value statement as an observable material fact.
@11:00 As Orson Scott Card writes in Xenocide, "There are always material explanations for the spiritual; never doubt the reality of the spiritual just because the explanations are material."
I'm interested in learning more about the Witch's Wind. I never heard of this before, but a few weeks ago a strong wind came out of nowhere and slammed into me while I was riding my bike, causing me to break my collarbone and suffer a concussion. The wind felt exactly like a large cold hand that literally lifted my bike off the ground and slammed me into the curb. Any information is appreciated. Thanks.
Jonathan, @2:30 it appears you are attempting to pass off scholastic categories through your own "symbolic" or "phenomenological" ontology. When you describe your son getting something from your room, or the example of the law and the judge acting on that law; this is referred to in scholastic terms as an "accidentally ordered causal series'" which is when the cause is not essential to the continuation of a series. This is distinct from an "essentially ordered causal series" which is when the cause is simultaneous with the effect - (eg. the firing of motor neurons which move the sculptors hand). In an essentially ordered series, each succeeding member has no causal power of its own, being mere instruments of the first/preceding member. In an accidentally ordered series, each member (your son or the judge for example) has their own causal power as the forms they instantiate (the form of a human being). You do not make this distinction... Secondary causes are "second” not in the sense of coming later in time or happening to come next in a sequence, but rather in the sense of having causal power only in a secondary or derivative way. This is the "Act and potency" distinction. What you're describing appears to be a muddled form of Thomism.
That’s awfully patronizing. Just because you presuppose Thomism doesn’t make it ‘the case’. By case meaning- the truth. Your framing of your point and your use of the word ‘muddled’ betrays you. Eastern Orthodoxy is a different theological system. If there’s similarities between certain portions of the argument and western Catholicism- it doesn’t necessarily mean he’s making a scholastic argument. It also doesn’t follow by that logic that scholasticism is somehow ‘superior’ or ‘less muddled’. That’s completely fallacious reasoning.
@cicerogsuphoesdown7723 @2:25 he references the video "did the witches win?" where he unpacks aspects of 'Malleus Maleficarum' and considers it through the authors' Thomistic/Aristotelian categories, specifically secondary causes - which he uses again here. His understanding of "Secondary cause" (which is a scholastic category) appears inconsistent with its intended meaning. I don't think Pageau should be considered an authority on these matters, and it's becoming apparent that his entire schtick as a TH-cam armchair "philosopher/theologian" seems to be derivative of other's scholarly and philosophical work without proper citation. He could at least qualify his opinions with a disclaimer before giving the impression that he knows what he's talking about. I'm also unqualified on these topics so consider my concerns as those of a wayward layman who's bullshit radar is pinging.
@@Greg-n I mean sure fair point. I haven’t seen the video referenced and I know way more about eastern theology than western. More of a Plato/orthodox theology guy than Aristotle/scholastic guy. So I won’t pretend I can defend when I don’t understand the context OR the arguments being referenced. That being said I feel like using terms like ‘passing off’ ‘muddled’ and ‘bullshit radar’ are a little excessive/unnecessarily harsh. I agree that IF what you say is true and he’s misunderstanding the scholastic paradigm and speaking as if he’s an authority- then that’s wrong. I would just insert that a healthy bit of skepticism should cut both ways. You admit you’re a layman. Maybe you’ve misunderstood his meaning or you yourself have an incomplete understanding of thomism. I don’t know. But it’s worth considering. One thing is forsure- I wouldn’t automatically assume that he’s some snake oil salesman- even if he is indeed ‘misrepresenting’ scholastic categories I don’t think it automatically follows that he’s doing it deliberately or with the intention of deceiving or misleading anyone. That’s seems like an excessively critical projection.
@@cicerogsuphoesdown7723 But he is making a point using that very system. Did you watch the video he referenced? He points out that in order to understand what the authors of Malleus Maleficarum were inferring you need to understand secondary cause; he then goes on to explain secondary cause in a way which is incorrect. I know this is TH-cam and citations aren't required, but these topics hold significant weight in the realm of faith and religion. When the platform is used to spread inaccurate information it becomes problematic. I would be lying if I said I wasn't beginning to question Pageau's integrity. I've recently read 'A Secular Age' by Charles Taylor (first published in 2007) and it appears a lot of Pageau's "insight" which I initially took as quite original and insightful is something I found presented in Taylor's writings in a much more systematic and scholarly way. I could be wrong but it reads almost verbatim to some of Pageau's online content and from the hours of videos and writings Pageau puts out, I've only found one reference to Taylor; in an interview he did with Michael Legaspi... and it was Legaspi who mentioned it!
@@Greg-n I deleted previous comment. Refer to new. I would also add having looked at some of your other comments on his channel thing that it seems this has less to do with ‘misusing scholastic categories’ and more of a Catholic apologist mad at orthodoxy type of thing. That seems like it’s more of the bone you’re really picking. Which again would make some of this back and forth a bit dishonest on your part.
This is a tough thing to explain to someone hung up on materialism, and often why atheists ostensibly win debates, but you explain it quite well here. Also your mic is sounding bad. A bit distorted.
I felt like Pageau here was holding back a bit to not scare off the secularists. If you are a guy who is pursuing chastity it wont take long for you to get attacked in your dreams. Yet over acknowledging this sort of thing is not good either. Christians have power through Christ. Cling to Christ and the attacks will try to get sneakier. Remember Christ, Call to Him. Everyone who calls on The Name of The Lord will be saved. Romans 10:13...
JD Vance reminded the audience at a Christian breakfast event at the last RNC, of a quote from Jules in Pulp Fiction. He’s arguing that he’s experienced a miracle and ends with the idea that it doesn’t matter whether the specific event was technically miraculous, what matters is that he “felt the hand of God”. I think God intervenes minimally in our affairs - but that He is always ready to speak to us given any opportunity that presents itself. Maybe Tucker’s dog laid on his chest and Tucker translated it into a dream of spiritual oppression and maybe he wriggled in response and some clawing happened… I suspect this is not overly likely, but it is possible - and then it’s also possible that with the omniscience and wisdom of God, the Spirit suggested an understanding to the waking Tucker that would help him to grow. It doesn’t matter whether it was technically miraculous, what matters is that he felt the hand of God.
Hi Jonathan, I wonder if you could review the symbolism of the recently released movie, Wicked? I think it would be interesting and relevant, especially in proximity to your recent critique of witches around the Halloween season. I would suspect the critical acclaim that the movie seems to be gaining would provide traction for good viewership as well. I think my curiosity is so piqued because of what seems like an increasing ability to be able to "see" these symbolic patterns come into sharper focus as you have brought them closer to conscious awareness. In light of that, my desire is to see if my 'sense-making' around these things is 'on point' or perhaps needs a little honing. Further, I wonder about what it is that I should do with this awareness as guidance for my life in a practical sense. I hope I can explain what I mean by the latter of those two aims. Let me try. I have NOT seen the movie Wicked. What I HAVE seen is, perhaps (and maybe you could help me to understand if this in fact true), a telegraphed message contained in the symbols used in one of the movie posters (specifically, the one with the statement, "Everyone deserves a chance to fly."). In a nutshell: Inversion. Firstly, that the image is one which imitates Michaelangelo's "Creation of Adam", yet male figures are inverted to female. Secondly, that the 'spaces' used for a more traditional construct of good and evil are inverted. Glinda (the 'good' witch) situated 'down and left', occupying the space of Adam, the fallen Man. Elphaba (the 'wicked' witch) situated 'up and right', occupying the space of God the Heavenly Father. So, the symbols read like "The good is fallen, and reaches up to the wicked." So here's how it feels on my end: Firstly, am I even accurate in my extrapolation, or am I just 'reaching' and seeing something that's not 'really' there? Secondly, if I am correct in my understanding, what then? Is it something I am to regard as somewhat insidious? If the symbols were to embed themselves--take root-- into someone less aware, do they have an implicit aim at sowing confusion into the one that imbibes them? Or do I just need to relax and appreciate artistic nuance? I will say that personally, despite the acclaim that it is receiving, I will be avoiding seeing this movie, and I think the reason is even somewhat interesting---it's because I don't know what I don't know, and it makes me hesitant to 'consume' the message of the story. I think I'm drawing the relationship between the ingestion of a nourishing food, and the reception of a nourishing idea and its opposite; the ingestion of an improper food, and the reception of an improper idea. The former facilitating proper digestion and assimilation toward health and well-being, the latter facilitating improper digestion and rejection toward ill health and sickness (or worse, death). Does one willingly and knowingly ingest improper (spoiled, rotten, toxic) food? Why then an improper idea or story? It's as if an apple telegraphed to me its rottenness in its color and smell. I don't need to consume its contents first in order to 'figure out' if it is healthful and nourishing--it has shown me on its face what it is. In the same way I am wondering about applying that approach to something like a movie, a story, a book. Is the symbolic 'confusion' in its marketing enough to telegraph what it is? Do I really need to 'consume' its contents in order to figure out if it is edifying, uplifting, and nourishing? I don't know. This is all pretty new abstract territory for me, and as far as receiving guidance, you're the only one I know who could answer with any authority Jonathan! I think anyone else would look at me with a blank stare. Whether or not this topic is responded to, I appreciate your time and effort on this channel. It is truly invaluable.
I agree it would be good if Jonathan could talk about Wicked. I have similar intuitions but they aren’t clear yet , though it is obviously full of inversions. Also they have inserted so called ‘Easter eggs’ into the film relating to the original story. It’s full of parasitic storylines twisted from Christianity.
My personal take: It happened and it didn't at the same time. Symbolic means smth like "things coming together". From a symbolic perspective, it happened, but from an asymbolic perspective (things moving apart), it didn't. From both perspectives married together, Tucker found some aspect of God's identity that he didn't have access to before. Regardless of whether he thought about it in exactly the same manner I just described. The "mechanical causes" is just studying how things move away from meaning. It's thinking about things by pointing downwards. In Jonathan's example of his son bringing him his shoes, if we were to think about the tiniest details of, I don't know, which muscle he moved, or which foot he used first, we would be thinking *specifically* about the details that matter as little as possible to the meaning of the event. The "meaning of it" is just studying how things come together toward meaning. Thinking about how things point upwards. In the same example with Jonathan's son, if you were to generalize the event as much as possible into the most basic and most encompassing elements possible, then you'd be thinking *specifically* about the general patterns that matter the most to the meaning of the event. "I told him to get me my shoes, but he sort of scoffed at me, and I looked at him dead in the eye, and he apologized and went for my shoes. He was pretty hungry at the moment, so everything around him annoyed him." From an asymbolic perspective, you'd be talking about which biochemicals were involved in his decision making, and which nervous system was responsible for the scoffing, etc. From a symbolic perspective, you'd be talking about the hierarchical position of the son and the father, about the meaning of hunger and how the pursuit of food can lead to sin, why scoffing at that moment would be a sin, why looking at him "dead" in the eye made the son reconsider his behavior, etc. If you try to "marry" both perspectives together, you'll understand the meaning of the story and the context from which the meaning arose from. If you try to "divorce" one perspective from the other, you'll miss the point of the story entirely, and will actually (in your mind) destroy it. And so, the people trying to *reduce* the Virgin Mary crying blood story to its mechanical causes are just trying to destroy the meaning of the story. It's normal in our culture to do that these days anyway, so I'd be careful with pointing fingers at anyone. But yeah, as far as I understand it, figuring out "what unites" both the symbolic and asymbolic perspectives for a specific event is how you get insight.
Or… maybe just maybe you don’t have to do mental-gymnastics and over-complicate things and instead we believe the Bible and understand that: it happened…
@@CedarloreForge Maybe your right, or maybe you don't care about what it means "to believe", or for something "to happen". I can explain what I think, but I can't make you care.
So I think ultimately this goes to the idea of prayer, regarding your thought about: "can telling a good thing about a person directly to them have a positive effect on them?", them more indirectly "can telling good things about a person to people of their social circle have a positive effect on them?". The further aspect would be "can praying in private for a person without them knowing about it from you have a positive effect on them?".
How come almost no one knows that "phenomena" is the plural of "phenomenon". People seem to think that phenomenon does not exist, therefore never use it.
22:25 The demons repeatedly raised St. Anthony the Great into the air and slammed him on the ground. St. Peter raised Tabitha from the dead as St. Paul raised Eutychus.
I'm a musician, this is exactly how music works. Especially in a good band and it's one of the few phenomena people still recognise in this way. There is no other way too see it! But I know plenty of musicians that will also deny it. People are weird 😂
@vincentraddclus9490 you can describe the mechanical causes of music like the vibration of a string, a stick sticking a drum, the slapping together of vocal folds or whatever frequency a particular note might be resonating at. But that is the secondary cause of the music. The first cause is higher, it is pure meanings and patterns that are non physical that are expressing themselves to the audience via the musicians. It's truly a spiritual activity
@@gourmetghost yeah, I love watching interviews of great writers. Bob Dylan says this exact thing. Paul McCartney wrote Yesterday after dreaming the melody
@@petemaguire8677 Oh I see... Of course! We could then say that human consciousness and experience is what facts and matter are subservient to, as the highest form of meaning in the world. And that this meaning resonates with a 'cosmic meaning' or, we could say, the heaven in Man reflects the heaven where God lives. Then we'd be like a beautiful/the right note in the cosmic harmony, receiving meaning from above and offering ours to the 'great orchestra'. I lamment being so extensive and just to finish: humankind should be appreciating human life and the gift of consciousness above anything else in the world.
My husband has had several incidents of the same and he never tried to explain it away. He has belief and love in God and is very pragmatic and will look at reasonable answers but with these, he just knew from the first one on that this was demonic.
I think the idea that the principalities dont have a physical influence on the world is wrong. Honestly, if the Saints, Angels, spiritual powers dont have a physical influence then it amounts to saying that they only exist as psychological archetypes or abstractions. When we look at physics, the core mystery is that material is actually formed by the interaction of fundamental forces, these forces obviously cannot originate from material because the material is made by the forces. Its entirely logical to assume that the fundamental forces originate from acts of will or mind. I find the attempt to remove the heavenly hosts from physical reality to be extremely disturbing, after all who does that serve except to make secular intellectuals to feel more comfortable? Material only exists in the mind as a way of categorizing or interpreting the physical world. The physical world is constituted by interaction of forces and forces don't originate from "material" but from mind. I feel that it is keeping with an Orthodox world view to see the physical world as the ordered application of forces by the heavenly hosts, carrying out Gods will, and the disordered forces of the demons disturbing that order to degree allowed by God. The materialist stops before they get to the bottom, they reduce things to lower level mechanisms and materials, but if they didn't stop they would arrive at forces that don't originate in material. For instance, gravity is not caused by material, but actually objects have mass/gravity based on interactions of fundamental forces. Literally, material does not cause anything, its a category of experience, its essentially "tangibility" or our ability to recognize something as an object. If we give up the ground of the physical world to materialists what do we have left? We give up the creation and fight over the validity of our abstract category, thats what "principality" becomes. I believe that principalities are mediators of Gods commandment, that their acts of will give rise to fundamental forces that int turn give presence and power to the physical world and ultimately form the qualities we call "material".
@@St.MartinofToursPrayToGodForUs Thanks, I guess the question would be what is matter then? If everything we see and interact with has some degree of matter or materiality/tangibility and that matter is not the result of spiritual forces, then essentially the vast majority of our existence has nothing to due with spiritual forces and it would be right to not think or care about spiritual forces. Which is the conclusion that materialism moves you towards and the bases of a secular world view. If these spiritual "powers" don't have power over the physical world, what power do they have? If God does not physically hold me in the palm of His hand then what does hold me? The physical belongs to the spiritual as the result of the spiritual will. Matter without ordered forces is nothingness. The ordering of forces is an action of mind. The spiritual powers having been given power by God, order the forces that make formless matter into recognizable objects or materials.
I've had this thought in my head for a while: this notion that God nudges people (through the angelic orders) and that the works of the demons and the devil, in which they are tempting man are through thoughts but are ultimately subsumed into the will of God (much like Joseph to his brothers: you meant for I'll, but God meant it for good). And so, everyone has these mechanical movements in the world, and God provides meaning to them through His will. And we attempt to understand that meaning, and make meaning out of our movements in the world too, and some of us see God in those movements. Others are blinded by the demons. Also, another thought I had is this idea of a miracle, and people trying to debunk it. That seems to be a post-modern approach to explaining away meaning. But, one example I always think of is when one loses something, and prays to St. Phanarious. It's not necessarily as though God makes that thing "appear out of thin air." He uses the mechanics of his creation (his people) to nudge them to place the lost thing in a prominent place. Don't forget to bake a cake St. Phanarious' mother!
This vision of miracles makes some sense on the one hand, but also raises some uncomfortable questions for me. For example, what were the "mechanical causes" for what we Christians call the Virgin Birth if this is how ALL miracles operate? Edit: Or is that just a question you're not supposed to ask, because it's supposed to be a mystery?
Ah ha! As a catholic I would say the story of the statue of the Virgin Mary here would be interpreted as certainly a sign from God. In order for the Church to authenticate it as a miracle, absolutely no mechanical causes should be found in the phenomena. The sign seen by the parishioners attending mass is for them specifically if they can see it meaningfully. But it wouldn't be adequate in itself to broadcast resulting in hundreds of people making a pilgrimage. So basically I'm saying your question is a good one, and as a catholic the consideration of it in no way touches on what I already believe about the Virgin Birth. Jonathan could open himself to the potentiality of miracles that are even more miraculous if that makes sense.
Of course we don’t know and there isn’t any way to know. Dawkins would like to study the Virgin Birth as a medical curiosity. Maybe try to reverse engineer it into a fertility treatment. I understand why talking about miracles in this way seems like half way to such an instrumentalizing reaction to miracles. However we can’t regard miracles as magic (pure spirit). Miracles have to be embodied things, it’s why we affirm so strongly that Christ’s human body and nature were fully human.
As a religious person, I can say he most likely had a sleep paralysis episode. It's happened to me. It is a perfectly understood phenomena. It is terrifying. But it doesn't signify a demonic attack. The scratch marks? Can't explain that one.
How could you make any choice if there wasnt a value hierarchy... so in a scorching desert, no water.. 3 days.... what do you think would rise to the highest point of reality for you as a human person?
You would know, Jonathan, but....I distinctly recall a Saint or maybe multiples of saint's, but the one I'm thinking of occurred in a cave and left the Saint bloodied and beaten. I don't think I dreamed this,
Padre Pio was tortured at night for a number of years. He also had decades of confirmed stigmata, and not just in his hands but also feet as well as shoulder, confirmed by multiple inspectors from Rome. So either dude was so profoundly ill that his mind could manifest wounds of terror as well as grace, or terror and grace have agency, and not just meaning. 'Meaning' is not imo the God of our fathers that just duped them.. sad..
40 comments total or solely on Pageau videos? I doubt the latter. How did you even find that number anyway? Counted them yourself? Isn’t investigating a stranger’s TH-cam profile a bit of pathetic behavior as well? What's the "symbolism" of my 40 comments though? That's the real question.
I am a bit surprised that people here do not seem to consider synchronicity as God and the spiritual realm in action. It's become second nature to me now, and has really calmed me down. Basically that there is some order to the randomness that happens. But I don't discount the possibility of direct interventions into the physical, that also has to be possible.
11:57 I have a story about rusty water coming down wires from the ceiling and appearing in another context. I had a roommate once who was having some emotional issues. We lived in a townhouse and the toilet upstairs was located over where the chandelier was downstairs. Apparently, there was a slow leak, and the water slowly leaked down the wires to the chandelier and into the gold round bulb of the chandelier eventually rusting. One day my roommate was screaming at me about something like I had never seen before, and I noticed her face looked demonic. Suddenly, that gold colored bulb broke off from the chandelier and flew across the room and as it did, it made a slash of rusty red orange colored water across her mouth and face. Needless to say, the shock on her face was unforgettable and she shut up immediately. She moved out a little while later, and I saw her again several years afterwards in Church and she looked much more settled and happier. I always wondered if that was the wake-up call that may have helped her.
Your video sounds like it's coming from a tin can, the audio quality is poor, with a noticeable metallic, tinny sound. It kind of hurts the ears 👂 At first, I thought maybe it was my phone, so I turned the podcast on the television, and the sound was still poor quality.i just thought you might want to know so you could fix it for the next podcast. God bless, I love watching your videos.
Grateful Pageau admitted he believes miracles are directly possible. Always wondered his viewpoint there, as I have wrestled with seeing them in my own life recently and wondering how.
Pentecostals have been doing this for a little over a century. Not saying we have it figured out to a point where it’s tom-fool-proof, but we’re not exactly starting from scratch with this type of organized supernatural thinking.
I recently woke up with 3 scratch marks on my back after having a vicious dream where I was physically fighting two women who had staffs and kept hitting me with them. I eventually grab the staff's and they started yelling at me, "Hate her!" and then ran off. But as I woke up I could hear them screaming the words as if they were in the room with me. I noticed the scratches after I had my shower. I think that it was a psychic attack rather than demonic, because the women are connected to an ex of mine, but why they'd attack is beyond me, I haven't seen him in years. Still, very freaky ... and nothing to do with Tucker, I just thought I'd share - lol.
They were making fun of him on Triggernometry that he had 4 dogs in his bed but thought it was a demon that scratched him. Ha ha. Anyway, I believe Tucker.
A real friend would have told Jonathan he’s just babbling at this point 😂 He was slashed or he wasn’t. The old Symbolic World jargon was groaning in this video. That was a stretch. Be honest 😂
I believe his point is that there's nothing about reverberations in someone's eardrums that mechanically forces them to do something for you. Yes, it is through soundwaves, reverberations, eardrums, the brain and more, that a person hears you and does what you ask, but it isn't clockwork and there's something beyond those mechanisms that allows for a person's will to be done at a distance.
@@geolazakis To add, since you grasp that first point, I think Jonathan is also trying to explain that the "thing" that is beyond those physical mechanisms are what ancient people and Orthodox Christians call Spirits. Spirits are the "thing" that is beyond the physical that calls a person to either listen to your request or not, or calls a worker to do the will of their boss or not. These Spirits are called "Demons" if these mechanisms move towards harming a person, making them insane, lead to strife amonst people or rebellion. They bring what are called "Curses" or "Reverse Miracles" as Jonathan says. These Spirits can also be identified as "Angels" if they call for reconciliation, heal a person, clears their mind, brings fellowship, brings them to Christ. They bring what are called "Blessings" or "Miracles" as Jonathan says. Now here is my personal notes: Sometimes a series of mechanistic events line up so well that the spiritual cause of them goes beyond merely an Angel, but rather to God himself as the events come together so "directly" you could say, in this category you have the incarnation (God who became man whilst still remaining God), the Virgin Birth, the ressurection, walking on water etc. I'd also like to add that "Saints" are in the role of "Angels" too. This is when a particular series of mechanistic events line up positively, similar to angels, but in a way that corresponds with a particular holy-person's life. For example, St Nicholas during his life is known to have helped guide people during they sea voyages. After his death, people over the centuries have reported St Nicholas (by the will of Christ) helping them miraculously from shipwreck and other travelling dangers. Lastly, from my own notes and insights, Since these Spirits, whether Angels & Saints or Demons, have a will and are the cause of these events, you are able to cultivate relationships with them. This is what prayer is and does. In Christian tradition though, you aren't meant to only direct your relationship to Spirits due to the temptation to Idolise them (lifting them higher than they should be in importance/power) and the risk of being decieved by demons, rather Christian tradition calls for a person to have a relationship with Christ as the most-high, source and meaning of life, then seeing the angels and saints lower down the hierarchy in relation to Christ, so that it is understood that Christ works through these Angels/Saints rather than them doing it of their own power or will alone. Hope that helps.
Demons exist. That aside, Tucker is a CIA plant and a bullshit artist. His job is to spread CIA directed messages to the population. For them, not for you.
No, because if you say that then modern people will think you’re crazy or stupid. For an example search TH-cam for “Tucker Carlson demon” and see all the reactions.
Good video Jonathan. I have encountered detractors both in the comments and on The Symbolic World Forum. I have always been respectful, but it’s obvious you are a Christian and many of your listeners are. Not that those who are not aren’t welcome. I had a conversation with one man and he thought I was being too religious. I just honestly asked him if he missed the fact that Jonathan is Christian. He changed the subject. So it is what it is. I don’t know how anyone tunes in and comes away with your not a Christian. 🤷🏼♂️
@@wilfriedvanleer585it's more like an application of Aristotle's four causes to an event/story instead of a being. It seems like he views the narrative/formal cause as just as real as the efficient cause. I'm not too sure Jung would do the same, but I also don't know him too well.
In Jonathan going so far to say every single miracle has a secondary cause? Atheists will say every miracle can be explained by some natural cause, wondering if Jonathan would agree with this
I'd say think of it this way. Take the statue of Mary crying blood. Yes, there was a mechanical explanation. But it is still a miracle that everything lined up perfectly. Well, it has to be this way. If God doesn't guide this miracle mechanically, you'd know it was God, and thus you no longer have free will. So the miracle must manifest in a way that allows an explanation that doesn't infringe on your free will. That's the way I've come to understand it.
@@GurrManagement Thanks, Gurr. That part, I did understand and it makes sense to me, too. My comment was meant to express my general frustration with Pageau and also with Jordan Peterson. Both of them seem to me to obfuscate, rather than enlighten on any given topic.
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You say that those things happen to people all the time in certain places. I assume that you are talking about your time in Africa. Could you share some stories? I also believe that I saw miracles more than once in my life. I just didn't realise it at the time.
A demon attacked your audio brother.
hahahaha
😂😂
But what does it mean?
I was laughing and then I noticed my sound was muted
😂
I loved your explanation. Back in 2017 I attended a peacful rally for family values in my Mexican hometown. We faced a lot of backlash for it, but, by the end of the rally, while we were being dismissed, a massive amount of butterflies passed trough the sky above us.
I took it as God nodding at us for standing up for freedom and family. It was July, so it is common to see butterflies, but it was a miracle that there was such a massive amount of them exactly above us as we were wraping up the event.
Feels like it’s been forever since we got another Symbolism Explained. Love these!
I was unknowingly involved in a lot of new age practices when I started listening to you. Was baptised a year and a half ago. So much scary activity happened once I started to read the bible. It made me a believer. Thank you Jonathan for being a huge stepping stone on my journey to Christ ❤️
Keep looking, Christisnity is just the beginning of the search. Now its time to dive further, and understand the origins. Time to read Plato. Look to the Dionysian cults and why he was depicted riding a donkey. Why he was a virgin birth of Zeus. Why the worshippers used the Eucharist in their rituals. Why they considered the wine they consumed as “his blood.”
Look up Judaism and its ties to Platos “noble lie.” Look into Socrates and how he and many greeks agreed there is a monotheistic representation of God known as “The Monad” which christians lie about being the first progenitors of monotheism.
Look into St. Peter and how the Jews consider him a secret agent jew masterfully infiltrating the christians and establishing a Judiasm based religion crafted specifically for Goyim (non jews) in order to normalize the idea of the messiah.
This rabbit hole goes much much deeper.
@@BasedRootsSorry, but none of this is in any way related to whether or not Christianity, particularly Orthodox Christianity has the fullness of the truth… just because there are mythological symmetries, or ritualistic symmetries, or whether or not Jews think X, y, or z about Peter or Paul, has absolutely zero to do with whether or not Christianity is true or false.
Shroud of Turin, real artifact or forgery? @@BasedRoots
@BasedRoots honestly....be quiet demon
@@Demetra719he's also just sadly mistaken or purposely lying lol the "monad" isn't Jewish and the Jews of Jesus time didn't believe in that, they had a Single God with Multiple Persons just like God is. Plato is a retard, kabbalists are just neoplatonist Jews, and the enlightenment is based off Gemistos Plethon spreading his nonsense to Italy during Florence council times.
I once had a dream in which a police officer asked to pray for me. But as soon as he put his hand on my left shoulder I became sick to my stomach and buckled to my knees and the police officer's face turned a sickly, obviously demonic green color. I managed to escape him, but then I was aware that I was supposed to have wings. My left wing had been torn off.
I woke up feeling very strange and shortly after that I developed something called "axillary web syndrome" or lymphatic cording under my left armpit and up to my elbow. It became extremely painful and nearly impossible to lift my left arm. The thing is, this condition is extremely rare for men to develop and usually only happens after breast cancer operations in women. After researching, I learned that this "cording," which strangely felt something like a guitar string inside my arm, could be broken with quick upward jerking motions and would naturally dissolve once it broke. This method worked and the condition has never returned.
So needless to say, you don't have to try to hard to convince me that this stuff happens.
That’s a remarkable story, which I have no difficulty believing. I’m glad it was resolved. I had a friend who was blinded in a car wreck. He always began the story with witnessing some workmen kill a rattlesnake the week before. From then until the accident he said he felt like his eyes were accursed by the sight. You couldn’t convince him otherwise.
“Quick upward jerking motions” sounds almost like flapping a wing…which sounds like something way more than a medical treatment; I would dare say you were breaking a curse and/or exercising some sort of divine healing (not dissimilar to Christ’s healings in the New Testament)
You've gone back to making these mini-subjects/ mini-analysis of particular events videos again. Glory be to God.
The idea of a disjunct between cause and effect is terrifying. A good horror story would be "The law was passed, but no one remembered signing it. By the time authorities realized that, it was too late..."
Some new mic wouldn't hurt
His gain is just to high. The input is clipping
@@thebluedanis it possible that the gain being too high is a metaphor of the meaning of reaching to understand miracles? The symbolism of the distorted sound is the difficulty he is having in explaining the topic? Will adjusting a knob on a machine improve his life?
A demon turned the gain to the maximum while he was sleeping.
@@carlotapuig it was…..his dog. You just can’t trust that breed.
Haha, 250k and not even invested in a smb7 or similar mic for like 300 USD. Thats my guy!
I am not surprised to hear your thoughts on meanings [directly] influencing the world. I see it aligning perfectly with what you’ve shared about your view on Angels and their consciousness (from your discussion of cities, in one of your videos with Dr. Petersson). While I am basically in the group of secular viewers you made reference to, I think it’s good to see you taking the risk of sharing this as I think it helps me see the world better as you see it, which I love.
Thank you for sharing, looking forward to more Symbolism breakdowns in the future :)
I know someone who had a kind of similar experience after getting into the occult and learning "black magic". He started having nightmares and hearing scratches in the middle of the night and a breathing like that of a huge feline or something. One day he found huge scratches in the wood of his furniture. He basically converted to Christianity in that moment.
Pageau explaining things like this is why I keep coming here. He answers questions we didn't know we had!
How the mundaine is more miraculous than we even WANT it to be...
Jonathan I have to say, this was unbelievable. Ive been an atheist my whole life, always giving a lot of value to the scientific-rationalistic way of thinking. That made me disregard religion as a whole. Theres a lot of value in thinking rationally, but a side of effect of this is usually being closed to the spiritual realm. The amazing thing is, and I have to say at first thanks to Jordan Peterson, I began to realize that the logic and rationale do not breakdown when exploring the metaphysical world, that there is a logic that is structured and can be explored and is real. Now, the old me watching this video would've been like "these are just coincidences'" and not given it second thought. But man, by explaining how the miracle IS the fact that all these "coincidences" care coming together at the same time just completely blew my mind. Thank you.
Yours is my favorite channel of all time, Jonathan. Thank you!
First comment! This is going to wild, possibly the best title since "Full Frontal Assault on the Enlightenment" which is possibly the best title of anything in centuries.
I might nick it for an album title!
You must mean 'Full frontal attack on the Copernican Revolution' 😂 great title indeed
@@selimhajali9007indeed! Silly me!
Why would we think that principalities cannot have direct physical effects on the world, or that they could not manifest bodies? In scripture angels take on human bodies that can physically eat. The egyptian sorcerers manifest a physical snake. seems to me that angels and demons can manifest body in the world
Ummm. Something isn't right. This isn't the same Pageau I started listening to years ago.
I don't believe they manifest like that - more that they possess , and through man as a vessel: they can "work"
@@ChaseyBearMagnanimity
This is a phenomenon Ive seen on a variety of online personalities, as if nudging is everywhere in those allowed to speak online now. With or without supernatural influences.. sucks, right?
@omalila7399 in the UK we have a governmental unit called the nudge unit otherwise known as the behavioural insights team. Their purpose to influence the public....
@@omalila7399 The US govt. and the globalists have what was informally called (by them) Nudge units. This is describing psychological operations, in this case it would be based in media, to propagandize the public. Online bots are an example of one technique. When Musk bought Twitter for example, influencers on the left lost millions of 'followers' while influencers on the right gained thousands over night. This is just a tip of a larger subject you can research easily... The US and the DoD spent billions in nudging the public to vaccination and lying about 'proven science' like the 6 ft rule being based in research, all disavowed by Fauci himself in following years. These are all verifiable at the simplest level...good luck to us.
Back in 2014, the week I was baptised, I experienced a demonic attack during the middle of the night.
I woke up about 3 o’clock in the morning. My room was pitch black and ice cold, despite being summer. I felt a physical darkness looming over me, and it was pushing and crushing down on my chest. I tried to move and speak, but I felt as though my jaw was locked shut. Eventually, I was able to open my mouth and I said, “ in Jesus name, leave.” Instantly, the darkness lifted, and my room no longer felt cold. It was quite a disturbing experience, but I sang hymns to get myself back to sleep. After I was baptised, it never happened again.
Were you sleeping on your back by any chance?
@Pomazebog1389 fair question but I once experienced a sleep paralysis episode in which I felt something trying to pull me out of my body, all while lying on my side. It seems that sleeping on your back makes you more vulnerable to sleep paralysis but it's not a given that a different sleeping position protects you.
I had a similar experience: in the middle of the night, I could feel but not see a dark presence in the room, my body paralyzed... But I also began involuntarily and uncontrollably snarling and growling much like a cornered and dangerous wolf that was just about to enter a fight (or flight) scenario. This went on for several minutes as I tried to stand up out of bed, unsuccessfully. After several minutes of struggling to stand or speak, I heard a voice saying "only God can save you." Then shortly after, I was no longer snarling like a dog and I could finally stand up.
I wasn't religious at the time, but it came after a night of me spending a couple of hours going over the story of Cain and Abel, trying to articulate all of the symbolism/metaphor I could find, feeling very moved by the story and every bit of motivated to change the way I engage with the world (since my life was currently a mess due to unconsciously acting out the spirit of Cain for years prior.)
Yup, doesn't matter the position. I've had it happen on my back, sleeping in my stomach, and sides@@gff.yu.
sounds like sleep paralysis
That example of the person who is delusional and paranoid, seeing enemies which are not there. Isn’t that in a strange way, also an attack from a principality?
I was thinking the same. What I understand is that even if you can explain the mechanical causes of a phenomenon it doesn't mean that you can dismiss it as a ''non-miracle''. God's Providence made those mechanical causes happen at a certain place and time that was spiritually meaningfull to an individual. With that understanding, why would you dismiss mental illness as a source of ''revelation''? Most people are not mentally ill and most mentally ill people do not have spiritually meaningfull experiences. Even if you can understand the mechanical causes of your vision during your mental crisis I do not see why it should be dismissed as a ''non-miracle''.
You can’t see something that’s not there.
@@LapinskasLukas but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t things there that you can’t see lol
@@LapinskasLukas Why not? People can lie to themselves without even realizing they're lying to themselves, so why can't they see things that aren't there by an analogous process?
@@LagMasterSam I’m unsure how to work with this particular analogy. But if you saw something, how can you say it wasn’t there? You just saw it with your own eyes. It might not be there anymore, sure, but it was there when you saw it. If it was not there then you would have never seem it. Jonathan has addressed this before in a podcast.
Some real guts even talking about this
Jonathan was never scared of being called "crazy" by his fellow westerners for acknowledging the existence of the spiritual.
Thank you for talking about. I kinda wish I could have seen a discussion between yourself and Dr. Michael Heiser.
Agree!
Jonathan is an underrated genius
And he is genuine and humble. Must be the Christian Orthodox influence;)☦️
The life of Saint Anthony the Great depicts him being physically attacked by demons.
Pageau could write hell of a horror movie script.
Pageau’s podcast is my favorite. He can hang with the best of them in a non-threatening and conversing way. Of which, I see Christ embodied within him and his work.
Amazingly explained. Thank you Jonathan for your love of materialist people and your care to try to help people understand better.
what about monks who've physically fought and seen demons?
Talk to a real exorcist if you don't believe demons exist
It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it
Talk to a real ornithologist if you don't believe birds exist
Talk to an addict if you believe they don’t
This reminds me of when I purchased a guitar 30 years ago and I said "Wait a minute, the strings are rusty". The salesmen replied "No, they've just got a bit of rust on them". I remember noticing hiw effective that was in neutralising my objection. I realise now he simply restated my meaningful value statement as an observable material fact.
All I know, is that Tuckers wife doesn’t buy the demon back scratching explanation
Yes but did you watch the video?
@ What is this question? Do I need to explain the joke?
@@roytore5062 oh lol I thought you were being serious lol
Lmao I was thinking the saaaaammmeee thing
Hahaha
@11:00 As Orson Scott Card writes in Xenocide, "There are always material explanations for the spiritual; never doubt the reality of the spiritual just because the explanations are material."
Would be very cool to hear you guys talk about this together.
Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me
Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me
Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me
I'm interested in learning more about the Witch's Wind. I never heard of this before, but a few weeks ago a strong wind came out of nowhere and slammed into me while I was riding my bike, causing me to break my collarbone and suffer a concussion. The wind felt exactly like a large cold hand that literally lifted my bike off the ground and slammed me into the curb. Any information is appreciated. Thanks.
Jonathan, @2:30 it appears you are attempting to pass off scholastic categories through your own "symbolic" or "phenomenological" ontology. When you describe your son getting something from your room, or the example of the law and the judge acting on that law; this is referred to in scholastic terms as an "accidentally ordered causal series'" which is when the cause is not essential to the continuation of a series. This is distinct from an "essentially ordered causal series" which is when the cause is simultaneous with the effect - (eg. the firing of motor neurons which move the sculptors hand). In an essentially ordered series, each succeeding member has no causal power of its own, being mere instruments of the first/preceding member. In an accidentally ordered series, each member (your son or the judge for example) has their own causal power as the forms they instantiate (the form of a human being). You do not make this distinction...
Secondary causes are "second” not in the sense of coming later in time or happening to come next in a sequence, but rather in the sense of having causal power only in a secondary or derivative way. This is the "Act and potency" distinction. What you're describing appears to be a muddled form of Thomism.
That’s awfully patronizing. Just because you presuppose Thomism doesn’t make it ‘the case’. By case meaning- the truth.
Your framing of your point and your use of the word ‘muddled’ betrays you. Eastern Orthodoxy is a different theological system. If there’s similarities between certain portions of the argument and western Catholicism- it doesn’t necessarily mean he’s making a scholastic argument. It also doesn’t follow by that logic that scholasticism is somehow ‘superior’ or ‘less muddled’.
That’s completely fallacious reasoning.
@cicerogsuphoesdown7723 @2:25 he references the video "did the witches win?" where he unpacks aspects of 'Malleus Maleficarum' and considers it through the authors' Thomistic/Aristotelian categories, specifically secondary causes - which he uses again here. His understanding of "Secondary cause" (which is a scholastic category) appears inconsistent with its intended meaning. I don't think Pageau should be considered an authority on these matters, and it's becoming apparent that his entire schtick as a TH-cam armchair "philosopher/theologian" seems to be derivative of other's scholarly and philosophical work without proper citation. He could at least qualify his opinions with a disclaimer before giving the impression that he knows what he's talking about. I'm also unqualified on these topics so consider my concerns as those of a wayward layman who's bullshit radar is pinging.
@@Greg-n I mean sure fair point. I haven’t seen the video referenced and I know way more about eastern theology than western. More of a Plato/orthodox theology guy than Aristotle/scholastic guy. So I won’t pretend I can defend when I don’t understand the context OR the arguments being referenced.
That being said I feel like using terms like ‘passing off’ ‘muddled’ and ‘bullshit radar’ are a little excessive/unnecessarily harsh.
I agree that IF what you say is true and he’s misunderstanding the scholastic paradigm and speaking as if he’s an authority- then that’s wrong.
I would just insert that a healthy bit of skepticism should cut both ways. You admit you’re a layman. Maybe you’ve misunderstood his meaning or you yourself have an incomplete understanding of thomism.
I don’t know. But it’s worth considering. One thing is forsure- I wouldn’t automatically assume that he’s some snake oil salesman- even if he is indeed ‘misrepresenting’ scholastic categories I don’t think it automatically follows that he’s doing it deliberately or with the intention of deceiving or misleading anyone.
That’s seems like an excessively critical projection.
@@cicerogsuphoesdown7723 But he is making a point using that very system. Did you watch the video he referenced? He points out that in order to understand what the authors of Malleus Maleficarum were inferring you need to understand secondary cause; he then goes on to explain secondary cause in a way which is incorrect.
I know this is TH-cam and citations aren't required, but these topics hold significant weight in the realm of faith and religion. When the platform is used to spread inaccurate information it becomes problematic.
I would be lying if I said I wasn't beginning to question Pageau's integrity. I've recently read 'A Secular Age' by Charles Taylor (first published in 2007) and it appears a lot of Pageau's "insight" which I initially took as quite original and insightful is something I found presented in Taylor's writings in a much more systematic and scholarly way. I could be wrong but it reads almost verbatim to some of Pageau's online content and from the hours of videos and writings Pageau puts out, I've only found one reference to Taylor; in an interview he did with Michael Legaspi... and it was Legaspi who mentioned it!
@@Greg-n I deleted previous comment. Refer to new. I would also add having looked at some of your other comments on his channel thing that it seems this has less to do with ‘misusing scholastic categories’ and more of a Catholic apologist mad at orthodoxy type of thing.
That seems like it’s more of the bone you’re really picking. Which again would make some of this back and forth a bit dishonest on your part.
This is a tough thing to explain to someone hung up on materialism, and often why atheists ostensibly win debates, but you explain it quite well here. Also your mic is sounding bad. A bit distorted.
I felt like Pageau here was holding back a bit to not scare off the secularists. If you are a guy who is pursuing chastity it wont take long for you to get attacked in your dreams. Yet over acknowledging this sort of thing is not good either. Christians have power through Christ. Cling to Christ and the attacks will try to get sneakier. Remember Christ, Call to Him. Everyone who calls on The Name of The Lord will be saved. Romans 10:13...
JD Vance reminded the audience at a Christian breakfast event at the last RNC, of a quote from Jules in Pulp Fiction. He’s arguing that he’s experienced a miracle and ends with the idea that it doesn’t matter whether the specific event was technically miraculous, what matters is that he “felt the hand of God”. I think God intervenes minimally in our affairs - but that He is always ready to speak to us given any opportunity that presents itself. Maybe Tucker’s dog laid on his chest and Tucker translated it into a dream of spiritual oppression and maybe he wriggled in response and some clawing happened… I suspect this is not overly likely, but it is possible - and then it’s also possible that with the omniscience and wisdom of God, the Spirit suggested an understanding to the waking Tucker that would help him to grow. It doesn’t matter whether it was technically miraculous, what matters is that he felt the hand of God.
dang I'm all up in my sound settings trying to reverse deep fry this audio.
when there is hard clipping, it's almost impossible to reverse. iZotope RX can do it with some fancy AI processing.
There's a difference between the miracles and signs. It is very well explained in the book On Miracles and Signs of Bishop Ignatius (Brianchaninov).
Hi Jonathan,
I wonder if you could review the symbolism of the recently released movie, Wicked?
I think it would be interesting and relevant, especially in proximity to your recent critique of witches around the Halloween season. I would suspect the critical acclaim that the movie seems to be gaining would provide traction for good viewership as well.
I think my curiosity is so piqued because of what seems like an increasing ability to be able to "see" these symbolic patterns come into sharper focus as you have brought them closer to conscious awareness. In light of that, my desire is to see if my 'sense-making' around these things is 'on point' or perhaps needs a little honing. Further, I wonder about what it is that I should do with this awareness as guidance for my life in a practical sense. I hope I can explain what I mean by the latter of those two aims. Let me try.
I have NOT seen the movie Wicked. What I HAVE seen is, perhaps (and maybe you could help me to understand if this in fact true), a telegraphed message contained in the symbols used in one of the movie posters (specifically, the one with the statement, "Everyone deserves a chance to fly."). In a nutshell: Inversion.
Firstly, that the image is one which imitates Michaelangelo's "Creation of Adam", yet male figures are inverted to female.
Secondly, that the 'spaces' used for a more traditional construct of good and evil are inverted. Glinda (the 'good' witch) situated 'down and left', occupying the space of Adam, the fallen Man. Elphaba (the 'wicked' witch) situated 'up and right', occupying the space of God the Heavenly Father. So, the symbols read like "The good is fallen, and reaches up to the wicked."
So here's how it feels on my end: Firstly, am I even accurate in my extrapolation, or am I just 'reaching' and seeing something that's not 'really' there? Secondly, if I am correct in my understanding, what then? Is it something I am to regard as somewhat insidious? If the symbols were to embed themselves--take root-- into someone less aware, do they have an implicit aim at sowing confusion into the one that imbibes them? Or do I just need to relax and appreciate artistic nuance?
I will say that personally, despite the acclaim that it is receiving, I will be avoiding seeing this movie, and I think the reason is even somewhat interesting---it's because I don't know what I don't know, and it makes me hesitant to 'consume' the message of the story. I think I'm drawing the relationship between the ingestion of a nourishing food, and the reception of a nourishing idea and its opposite; the ingestion of an improper food, and the reception of an improper idea. The former facilitating proper digestion and assimilation toward health and well-being, the latter facilitating improper digestion and rejection toward ill health and sickness (or worse, death). Does one willingly and knowingly ingest improper (spoiled, rotten, toxic) food? Why then an improper idea or story?
It's as if an apple telegraphed to me its rottenness in its color and smell. I don't need to consume its contents first in order to 'figure out' if it is healthful and nourishing--it has shown me on its face what it is. In the same way I am wondering about applying that approach to something like a movie, a story, a book. Is the symbolic 'confusion' in its marketing enough to telegraph what it is? Do I really need to 'consume' its contents in order to figure out if it is edifying, uplifting, and nourishing?
I don't know. This is all pretty new abstract territory for me, and as far as receiving guidance, you're the only one I know who could answer with any authority Jonathan! I think anyone else would look at me with a blank stare. Whether or not this topic is responded to, I appreciate your time and effort on this channel. It is truly invaluable.
I agree it would be good if Jonathan could talk about Wicked. I have similar intuitions but they aren’t clear yet , though it is obviously full of inversions. Also they have inserted so called ‘Easter eggs’ into the film relating to the original story. It’s full of parasitic storylines twisted from Christianity.
My personal take:
It happened and it didn't at the same time. Symbolic means smth like "things coming together". From a symbolic perspective, it happened, but from an asymbolic perspective (things moving apart), it didn't.
From both perspectives married together, Tucker found some aspect of God's identity that he didn't have access to before. Regardless of whether he thought about it in exactly the same manner I just described.
The "mechanical causes" is just studying how things move away from meaning. It's thinking about things by pointing downwards. In Jonathan's example of his son bringing him his shoes, if we were to think about the tiniest details of, I don't know, which muscle he moved, or which foot he used first, we would be thinking *specifically* about the details that matter as little as possible to the meaning of the event.
The "meaning of it" is just studying how things come together toward meaning. Thinking about how things point upwards. In the same example with Jonathan's son, if you were to generalize the event as much as possible into the most basic and most encompassing elements possible, then you'd be thinking *specifically* about the general patterns that matter the most to the meaning of the event.
"I told him to get me my shoes, but he sort of scoffed at me, and I looked at him dead in the eye, and he apologized and went for my shoes. He was pretty hungry at the moment, so everything around him annoyed him."
From an asymbolic perspective, you'd be talking about which biochemicals were involved in his decision making, and which nervous system was responsible for the scoffing, etc.
From a symbolic perspective, you'd be talking about the hierarchical position of the son and the father, about the meaning of hunger and how the pursuit of food can lead to sin, why scoffing at that moment would be a sin, why looking at him "dead" in the eye made the son reconsider his behavior, etc.
If you try to "marry" both perspectives together, you'll understand the meaning of the story and the context from which the meaning arose from.
If you try to "divorce" one perspective from the other, you'll miss the point of the story entirely, and will actually (in your mind) destroy it.
And so, the people trying to *reduce* the Virgin Mary crying blood story to its mechanical causes are just trying to destroy the meaning of the story. It's normal in our culture to do that these days anyway, so I'd be careful with pointing fingers at anyone.
But yeah, as far as I understand it, figuring out "what unites" both the symbolic and asymbolic perspectives for a specific event is how you get insight.
Or… maybe just maybe you don’t have to do mental-gymnastics and over-complicate things and instead we believe the Bible and understand that: it happened…
@@CedarloreForge Maybe your right, or maybe you don't care about what it means "to believe", or for something "to happen". I can explain what I think, but I can't make you care.
This is a highly underrated comment, I’m glad I scrolled to find it because it helped what I hear Jonathan say “click” into understanding.
@@CedarloreForge oops poopy
So I think ultimately this goes to the idea of prayer, regarding your thought about: "can telling a good thing about a person directly to them have a positive effect on them?", them more indirectly "can telling good things about a person to people of their social circle have a positive effect on them?". The further aspect would be "can praying in private for a person without them knowing about it from you have a positive effect on them?".
How come almost no one knows that "phenomena" is the plural of "phenomenon". People seem to think that phenomenon does not exist, therefore never use it.
I was hoping for a moment that someone was using "phenomena" correctly for once only to have my hopes dashed later in the video. But alas...
22:25 The demons repeatedly raised St. Anthony the Great into the air and slammed him on the ground. St. Peter raised Tabitha from the dead as St. Paul raised Eutychus.
It's not happening in every single case, but it is happening ALL THE TIME.
This is very interesting in a psychological view to understand self-harm.
21:48 - Speaking evil over a man repeatedly until there's an attempt on his life.
Anyone who has listened to an exorcist knows this is possible.
Insightful as always, thank you Jonathan.
I'm a musician, this is exactly how music works. Especially in a good band and it's one of the few phenomena people still recognise in this way. There is no other way too see it! But I know plenty of musicians that will also deny it.
People are weird 😂
How come, how does music relate to what he says?
@@vincentraddclus9490the songs often write themselves...hard to explain unless you've experienced. some authors have said things similar as well
@vincentraddclus9490 you can describe the mechanical causes of music like the vibration of a string, a stick sticking a drum, the slapping together of vocal folds or whatever frequency a particular note might be resonating at. But that is the secondary cause of the music. The first cause is higher, it is pure meanings and patterns that are non physical that are expressing themselves to the audience via the musicians. It's truly a spiritual activity
@@gourmetghost yeah, I love watching interviews of great writers. Bob Dylan says this exact thing. Paul McCartney wrote Yesterday after dreaming the melody
@@petemaguire8677 Oh I see... Of course! We could then say that human consciousness and experience is what facts and matter are subservient to, as the highest form of meaning in the world. And that this meaning resonates with a 'cosmic meaning' or, we could say, the heaven in Man reflects the heaven where God lives. Then we'd be like a beautiful/the right note in the cosmic harmony, receiving meaning from above and offering ours to the 'great orchestra'.
I lamment being so extensive and just to finish: humankind should be appreciating human life and the gift of consciousness above anything else in the world.
My husband has had several incidents of the same and he never tried to explain it away. He has belief and love in God and is very pragmatic and will look at reasonable answers but with these, he just knew from the first one on that this was demonic.
His eyes are an ocean of flames filled with love that have absorbed every pain of existence.
I think the idea that the principalities dont have a physical influence on the world is wrong. Honestly, if the Saints, Angels, spiritual powers dont have a physical influence then it amounts to saying that they only exist as psychological archetypes or abstractions. When we look at physics, the core mystery is that material is actually formed by the interaction of fundamental forces, these forces obviously cannot originate from material because the material is made by the forces. Its entirely logical to assume that the fundamental forces originate from acts of will or mind. I find the attempt to remove the heavenly hosts from physical reality to be extremely disturbing, after all who does that serve except to make secular intellectuals to feel more comfortable? Material only exists in the mind as a way of categorizing or interpreting the physical world. The physical world is constituted by interaction of forces and forces don't originate from "material" but from mind. I feel that it is keeping with an Orthodox world view to see the physical world as the ordered application of forces by the heavenly hosts, carrying out Gods will, and the disordered forces of the demons disturbing that order to degree allowed by God. The materialist stops before they get to the bottom, they reduce things to lower level mechanisms and materials, but if they didn't stop they would arrive at forces that don't originate in material. For instance, gravity is not caused by material, but actually objects have mass/gravity based on interactions of fundamental forces. Literally, material does not cause anything, its a category of experience, its essentially "tangibility" or our ability to recognize something as an object. If we give up the ground of the physical world to materialists what do we have left? We give up the creation and fight over the validity of our abstract category, thats what "principality" becomes. I believe that principalities are mediators of Gods commandment, that their acts of will give rise to fundamental forces that int turn give presence and power to the physical world and ultimately form the qualities we call "material".
I kinda wonder if they can't have influence on matter, but they can have influence on energy...
I generally agree with your point though.
@@St.MartinofToursPrayToGodForUs Thanks, I guess the question would be what is matter then? If everything we see and interact with has some degree of matter or materiality/tangibility and that matter is not the result of spiritual forces, then essentially the vast majority of our existence has nothing to due with spiritual forces and it would be right to not think or care about spiritual forces. Which is the conclusion that materialism moves you towards and the bases of a secular world view. If these spiritual "powers" don't have power over the physical world, what power do they have? If God does not physically hold me in the palm of His hand then what does hold me? The physical belongs to the spiritual as the result of the spiritual will. Matter without ordered forces is nothingness. The ordering of forces is an action of mind. The spiritual powers having been given power by God, order the forces that make formless matter into recognizable objects or materials.
Well said, great explanation.
you guys. please get off your fainting couches about the audio. you can still hear him. im sure he’ll fix it for next time. you will survive.
I wish Jonathan would do a video on symbols or geometrical shapes. This video was great tho thanks Jonathan.
I've had this thought in my head for a while: this notion that God nudges people (through the angelic orders) and that the works of the demons and the devil, in which they are tempting man are through thoughts but are ultimately subsumed into the will of God (much like Joseph to his brothers: you meant for I'll, but God meant it for good). And so, everyone has these mechanical movements in the world, and God provides meaning to them through His will. And we attempt to understand that meaning, and make meaning out of our movements in the world too, and some of us see God in those movements. Others are blinded by the demons.
Also, another thought I had is this idea of a miracle, and people trying to debunk it. That seems to be a post-modern approach to explaining away meaning. But, one example I always think of is when one loses something, and prays to St. Phanarious. It's not necessarily as though God makes that thing "appear out of thin air." He uses the mechanics of his creation (his people) to nudge them to place the lost thing in a prominent place. Don't forget to bake a cake St. Phanarious' mother!
Thank you for discussing this!
Good morning!!❤
This vision of miracles makes some sense on the one hand, but also raises some uncomfortable questions for me. For example, what were the "mechanical causes" for what we Christians call the Virgin Birth if this is how ALL miracles operate?
Edit: Or is that just a question you're not supposed to ask, because it's supposed to be a mystery?
Not only that. What about many orthodox monks or saints of recents years have *physically* fought with demons?
Ah ha!
As a catholic I would say the story of the statue of the Virgin Mary here would be interpreted as certainly a sign from God. In order for the Church to authenticate it as a miracle, absolutely no mechanical causes should be found in the phenomena. The sign seen by the parishioners attending mass is for them specifically if they can see it meaningfully. But it wouldn't be adequate in itself to broadcast resulting in hundreds of people making a pilgrimage.
So basically I'm saying your question is a good one, and as a catholic the consideration of it in no way touches on what I already believe about the Virgin Birth. Jonathan could open himself to the potentiality of miracles that are even more miraculous if that makes sense.
@@tekaneo absolutely.
Of course we don’t know and there isn’t any way to know.
Dawkins would like to study the Virgin Birth as a medical curiosity. Maybe try to reverse engineer it into a fertility treatment.
I understand why talking about miracles in this way seems like half way to such an instrumentalizing reaction to miracles. However we can’t regard miracles as magic (pure spirit). Miracles have to be embodied things, it’s why we affirm so strongly that Christ’s human body and nature were fully human.
As a religious person, I can say he most likely had a sleep paralysis episode. It's happened to me. It is a perfectly understood phenomena. It is terrifying. But it doesn't signify a demonic attack. The scratch marks? Can't explain that one.
4 dogs in the bed, 😂maybe?
Hi Jonathan. Is there a hierarchy of reality?
How could you make any choice if there wasnt a value hierarchy... so in a scorching desert, no water.. 3 days.... what do you think would rise to the highest point of reality for you as a human person?
Yep.
30 pieces of SILVER. Not 29, nor 31. "What is that to us? You see to that yourself.". ❌ 👀
You would know, Jonathan, but....I distinctly recall a Saint or maybe multiples of saint's, but the one I'm thinking of occurred in a cave and left the Saint bloodied and beaten. I don't think I dreamed this,
Padre Pio was tortured at night for a number of years. He also had decades of confirmed stigmata, and not just in his hands but also feet as well as shoulder, confirmed by multiple inspectors from Rome. So either dude was so profoundly ill that his mind could manifest wounds of terror as well as grace, or terror and grace have agency, and not just meaning. 'Meaning' is not imo the God of our fathers that just duped them.. sad..
Awesome, can't wait for that film
If I’m feeling a bit too smart I just listen to Jonathan Pageau to reorient myself 😵💫
Yeah, he'll dumb you down quite a bit.
@@Mr_M1dnightWow, you have posted 40 comments and actively follow a channel you hate. That's pathetic.
40 comments total or solely on Pageau videos? I doubt the latter. How did you even find that number anyway? Counted them yourself? Isn’t investigating a stranger’s TH-cam profile a bit of pathetic behavior as well?
What's the "symbolism" of my 40 comments though? That's the real question.
@@Mr_M1dnight On this channel. On the TH-cam app you can just click on a comment and it shows the amount
@@Mr_M1dnight No, on this channel alone. On the youtube app you can just click on a user and it shows the comment amount
Thank you Jonathan
Mathematician here. Excellent explanation.
I am a bit surprised that people here do not seem to consider synchronicity as God and the spiritual realm in action. It's become second nature to me now, and has really calmed me down. Basically that there is some order to the randomness that happens. But I don't discount the possibility of direct interventions into the physical, that also has to be possible.
Great intro I'm hooked
12:41 what is a mechanical cause?
If you can answer that, or try, you may begin to understand.
Abstraction vs experience.
11:57 I have a story about rusty water coming down wires from the ceiling and appearing in another context. I had a roommate once who was having some emotional issues. We lived in a townhouse and the toilet upstairs was located over where the chandelier was downstairs. Apparently, there was a slow leak, and the water slowly leaked down the wires to the chandelier and into the gold round bulb of the chandelier eventually rusting. One day my roommate was screaming at me about something like I had never seen before, and I noticed her face looked demonic. Suddenly, that gold colored bulb broke off from the chandelier and flew across the room and as it did, it made a slash of rusty red orange colored water across her mouth and face. Needless to say, the shock on her face was unforgettable and she shut up immediately. She moved out a little while later, and I saw her again several years afterwards in Church and she looked much more settled and happier. I always wondered if that was the wake-up call that may have helped her.
I dont know for others, but thank you and thank you again! ❤ This was really , very helpfull for us ( non secular types who follow you😊)
So has anything ever actually happened in reality tangibly/physically before Jonathan? Or is everything merely “symbolic” and metaphysical? 🙄
Consciousness is fundamental y'all.
This was good. Than your son for us for helping make this salient 😊
Your video sounds like it's coming from a tin can, the audio quality is poor, with a noticeable metallic, tinny sound. It kind of hurts the ears 👂 At first, I thought maybe it was my phone, so I turned the podcast on the television, and the sound was still poor quality.i just thought you might want to know so you could fix it for the next podcast. God bless, I love watching your videos.
Grateful Pageau admitted he believes miracles are directly possible. Always wondered his viewpoint there, as I have wrestled with seeing them in my own life recently and wondering how.
Many comments read as if he doesn’t say it.
His explanation seems to deny that miracles, conceived of in the classical manner, are real. His take on this did not sound Christian.
@@eafowler777yeah, this has always bothered me. 2 Timothy 3:5. But I keep listening, I'm not judging, but it is bothering me.
@eafowler777 he said the world of meaning/principalities can directly impact people sometimes
@@leondbleondb 25:15 you didn't listen closely. He even said he may be pushing the more "secular type" beyond his reach.
Sucks sometimes the most interesting discussions Jonathan has is ruined by tech issues.
Can we include this type of thought back into society without severe tomfoolery? It seems to be a tight rope activity
Pentecostals have been doing this for a little over a century. Not saying we have it figured out to a point where it’s tom-fool-proof, but we’re not exactly starting from scratch with this type of organized supernatural thinking.
I recently woke up with 3 scratch marks on my back after having a vicious dream where I was physically fighting two women who had staffs and kept hitting me with them. I eventually grab the staff's and they started yelling at me, "Hate her!" and then ran off. But as I woke up I could hear them screaming the words as if they were in the room with me. I noticed the scratches after I had my shower. I think that it was a psychic attack rather than demonic, because the women are connected to an ex of mine, but why they'd attack is beyond me, I haven't seen him in years. Still, very freaky ... and nothing to do with Tucker, I just thought I'd share - lol.
And do you think your own hands twisted backwards to create the scratches?
They were making fun of him on Triggernometry that he had 4 dogs in his bed but thought it was a demon that scratched him. Ha ha. Anyway, I believe Tucker.
Why would his beloved dogs scratch him?
Tucker got REEEEE-enchanted. 🐸 👌
Miracles can have mechanics for sure
My mechanic performs miracles
@@HubertofLiege They often perform miracles 😆
A real friend would have told Jonathan he’s just babbling at this point 😂
He was slashed or he wasn’t. The old Symbolic World jargon was groaning in this video. That was a stretch. Be honest 😂
4:27 What about the mechanical reverberations on his eardrums when you ask him to bring that to you?
I believe his point is that there's nothing about reverberations in someone's eardrums that mechanically forces them to do something for you. Yes, it is through soundwaves, reverberations, eardrums, the brain and more, that a person hears you and does what you ask, but it isn't clockwork and there's something beyond those mechanisms that allows for a person's will to be done at a distance.
@@olubunmiolumuyiwa Makes sense, thank you!
@@geolazakis To add, since you grasp that first point, I think Jonathan is also trying to explain that the "thing" that is beyond those physical mechanisms are what ancient people and Orthodox Christians call Spirits. Spirits are the "thing" that is beyond the physical that calls a person to either listen to your request or not, or calls a worker to do the will of their boss or not.
These Spirits are called "Demons" if these mechanisms move towards harming a person, making them insane, lead to strife amonst people or rebellion. They bring what are called "Curses" or "Reverse Miracles" as Jonathan says.
These Spirits can also be identified as "Angels" if they call for reconciliation, heal a person, clears their mind, brings fellowship, brings them to Christ. They bring what are called "Blessings" or "Miracles" as Jonathan says.
Now here is my personal notes:
Sometimes a series of mechanistic events line up so well that the spiritual cause of them goes beyond merely an Angel, but rather to God himself as the events come together so "directly" you could say, in this category you have the incarnation (God who became man whilst still remaining God), the Virgin Birth, the ressurection, walking on water etc.
I'd also like to add that "Saints" are in the role of "Angels" too. This is when a particular series of mechanistic events line up positively, similar to angels, but in a way that corresponds with a particular holy-person's life. For example, St Nicholas during his life is known to have helped guide people during they sea voyages. After his death, people over the centuries have reported St Nicholas (by the will of Christ) helping them miraculously from shipwreck and other travelling dangers.
Lastly, from my own notes and insights, Since these Spirits, whether Angels & Saints or Demons, have a will and are the cause of these events, you are able to cultivate relationships with them. This is what prayer is and does. In Christian tradition though, you aren't meant to only direct your relationship to Spirits due to the temptation to Idolise them (lifting them higher than they should be in importance/power) and the risk of being decieved by demons, rather Christian tradition calls for a person to have a relationship with Christ as the most-high, source and meaning of life, then seeing the angels and saints lower down the hierarchy in relation to Christ, so that it is understood that Christ works through these Angels/Saints rather than them doing it of their own power or will alone. Hope that helps.
Can‘t u just say: yes, demons exist.
Demons exist. That aside, Tucker is a CIA plant and a bullshit artist. His job is to spread CIA directed messages to the population. For them, not for you.
Indeed. A long convoluted answer
No, because if you say that then modern people will think you’re crazy or stupid. For an example search TH-cam for “Tucker Carlson demon” and see all the reactions.
@@angel97774 his answer bridges the gap to the secularist mind
And who would that help? Your protestantism is showing, Sir.
Are they actually real or just "symbolic"?
It's Plato vs. Aristotle. It's always been this.
What do words have in common with pictures? What does visual information in a moment have in common with both? Which of those three things are real?
How do we distinguish between delusions and so called real experiences?
Can we get a symbolic world vid on Wicked?? Pretty cut and dry, I know, but could expand the audience 😄
Good video Jonathan. I have encountered detractors both in the comments and on The Symbolic World Forum. I have always been respectful, but it’s obvious you are a Christian and many of your listeners are. Not that those who are not aren’t welcome. I had a conversation with one man and he thought I was being too religious. I just honestly asked him if he missed the fact that Jonathan is Christian. He changed the subject. So it is what it is. I don’t know how anyone tunes in and comes away with your not a Christian. 🤷🏼♂️
Ah, like a causal synchronicity
Right. I feel like he’s just trying to explain Jung’s theory of synchronicity.
@@wilfriedvanleer585it's more like an application of Aristotle's four causes to an event/story instead of a being. It seems like he views the narrative/formal cause as just as real as the efficient cause. I'm not too sure Jung would do the same, but I also don't know him too well.
Please invest in your producton. Lights, cameras, microphones
In Jonathan going so far to say every single miracle has a secondary cause? Atheists will say every miracle can be explained by some natural cause, wondering if Jonathan would agree with this
So what about the personality behind the will that it took to cause all those mechanical causes? Who is that?
The audio is so bad. The whole video is clipping. Sad, I wanted to hear your message.
But some miracles don’t have mechanical causes.
Cant wait
Your Microphone is overmodulating big time...
I will look forward to a revisit to this topic for added clarity. I get it and yet I don't still. Apologies.
Your mic input is being overdriven. Turn down the gain on your interface.
I could not understand a word of this.
I'd say think of it this way. Take the statue of Mary crying blood. Yes, there was a mechanical explanation. But it is still a miracle that everything lined up perfectly. Well, it has to be this way. If God doesn't guide this miracle mechanically, you'd know it was God, and thus you no longer have free will. So the miracle must manifest in a way that allows an explanation that doesn't infringe on your free will. That's the way I've come to understand it.
@@GurrManagement Thanks, Gurr. That part, I did understand and it makes sense to me, too. My comment was meant to express my general frustration with Pageau and also with Jordan Peterson. Both of them seem to me to obfuscate, rather than enlighten on any given topic.