Also to add to a great video is make sure you keep your head up and looking down the track, it’s very easy to look down at the curbs during slow hairpins.
I've started my track riding and learning on small tracks - thus I feel pretty confident even in tight harpins. But I fully understand that it takes time to overcome the feeling of "falling". Good idea is to practice tight corners with open throttle through whole corner - its slower (you need to brake more) but it gives You extra stability. As you fell more confident you just take a next step and trailbrake. Cheers.
After doing 3000+ miles of hairpin corners in the Pyrenees I now feel at ease in really slow corners. The skills I learned in the mountains translated very nicely on track. Increasing core body strength also helps massively.
Here in Ukraine, there are about 4 go kart tracks where motorcycle riders can train, and only one "big" track, but with horrible pavement and rare track days schedule. So I learned to love low speed corners and small tracks :) I'd like to add, that at slow corners, if you hang your butt off too much, not only it will be physically demanding, you will also loose a lot of time in hairpins and chicanes, since getting back up and ready for the next corner takes more time compared to a more conservative body position.
This is truly one of your best videos. You have explicitly targeted so many of us whose main issue is really core strength in low speed corners. You’ve honestly given me my focus area for next season. Well done.
Another great video Dan, useful not just for the track! I just returned from the mountains of my home state of VA. It was my 1st motorcycle ride on what may be Virginia’s best sports car/motorcycle road - Route 16 between Marion and Tazewell - they call it The Back of The Dragon: 32 miles, up and over 3 mountains, through 2 valleys (be sure to stop at The BOTD store in Tazewell and say hi to Larry!). In 32 miles you’ll find every sort of curve you can think of - slow, fast, uphill, downhill, constant radius, decreasing radius, etc., mostly well banked, all laid out on a delicious, well maintained asphalt. Oh, and the speed limit is 55! Keith Code’s CSS , taken in Mar. of this year, and your training videos all year long, enhanced the experience riding very technical mountain roads!! Props for all you do!!!
Yes! Excellent observations! I too am challenged in slower corners for all the mentions in the video. I'm thinking high speed sweeping corners are much more enjoyable due to stability and the feel of the suspension, tires and road surface truly working in concert. Love the feel of a planted bike!
Good points that the bike will be more stable at high speed. That gives a rider more confidence when riding through a faster turn. Slower speed corners require more precision because the bike is more sensitive, especially if the rider changes body position mid-corner or isn't smooth with the throttle. Being smooth means setting your line and body position. Small bobbles are much more noticeable in slower corners. However, you haven't mentioned that lower gear require better throttle control, and some slower corners require heavier braking on entry. Those add to the complexity of slower corners. Track day riders should be reminded that the slower corners are where you can learn the most to clean up your riding mistakes.
Good observations as usual. By now they should be obvious but often aren't, so thanks Dan :-) My home track is relatively slow & technical (~210kph straight) so I now find the slow corners more comfortable. When I attend a flowing track like Phillip Island, I am swamped by most riders on the fast corners only to peel past 2-4 riders at a time entering Turn 5 (Honda) and 10 (MG)...the two slowest corners at the track. I need to spend more time at some fast tracks to improve my confidence I think.
I would add one other reason. Perception. We tend to get into a rhythm on track and that rhythm stays, for the most part, consistent through the various corners. While going through the faster corners we’ve conditioned ourselves to hit an entry window approaching the turn at a certain speed and approach angle with little to no room to adjust that line once set. In the slower turns it seems to take FOREVER to get through it which leads to multiple opportunities to change lines, intentional or not, all the while with the sense of urgency screaming in the back of our head that this is taking to long and get back on the throttle already. Our brain has problems with the different relative times between the very fast and the very slow. Some turns just can’t be taken fast no matter how much we want too and we need to learn to control that clock in our head.
Good tips. I tend to like slow turns because they're so challenging and the downside of messing up is far less. This is especially true on the street. The most extreme track example I've encountered are turns 13 and 14 at the Streets (Willow Springs, CA), which are 180 degree turns only about 75 feet apart, and where I can't get above about 25mph. If you go into 13 just 1 mph too hot, you go wide and that exaggerates your miss on 14, which screws you up going into the long straight. I can never get the super-quick change in body position complete and so don't bother - I'm just not that good and my 6'2" large build doesn't help. It boils down to getting smooth and somewhat relaxed, which is hard enough.
For racing slow corners are crucial to master, you can dive into a tight corner and park it in front of another rider and once you are in front it will be as hard for them to pass is it was for you to pass them leading up to that point and if you do it on the last 2 laps it may be enough of a buffer the keep the place gained before thew flag. Likewise in the first lap getting around as many as you can in the first tight corner can give you clean air to get away from the pack who will continue to slow each other down behind you. Passing on long corners is the same as passing on straight in that both are a drag race and if you do not have more power to win the drag race then tight corners are the best option to get a pass in.
I feel more happy on slow and technical tracks. It makes you commit to your lines more strictly therefore transferring that discipline to fast and sweeping tracks as well.
Just have to say I watch all you vids and always excited to see new one. Your very good at explaining sometimes very difficult things remarkably well. Always learning from you. Cheers :)
As usual excellent advice. Practice slow corner style on the road, simply because you are there more often. Although track is focused on speed the slower corners on the road can teach you control. Okay that may be obvious but hey worth your time.
fantastic topic Dan, slow, at times “parking lot” speed corners are definitely a struggle especially if you want to keep your line, while trying to go as fast as you can. But in all fairness, that’s not where people can make up time.. i struggle with such corners.
For me, the added difficulty of slow corners is related with my difficulty in doing an effective quick flick and "falling" into the lean angle that would be ideal or desirable... And then once I've turned in, it's as if I feel that there's nothing I can really do or change... On faster more flowing corners, I still do a quick (ish) flick but just feels slower tipping in, which makes it easier to gauge and control... At least that's kinda how I feel.
I think that the timing aspect and patience needed tend to also add to the challenge, we’re riding to go fast and suddenly we’re required to slow it down. It’s definitely a place where counterintuitive actions need to be executed.
I feel more comfortable in slow corners than in fast ones, and that because I don't have access to a large racetrack. Majority of my riding happens on narrow twisty roads, parking lots (gymkhana) and karting tracks. I can easily scrape pegs in a mountain hairpin when going like 30-50kph, but everything above 120kph is pretty scary. Another interesting thing is that suspension is usually set up for faster speeds and when going slower frontend feels twitchy.
Funny you show the hairpin at Snetterton. That the only corner I really feel uncomfortable on. That is appart from the long sweeping right hander before the start finish straight. I find myself starting the corner at a good pace, but slowly slowing down through out it an dtjen braking. Rather than keeping a good consistent speed and then braking at the braking point.
Coram (penultimate corner) is BALLS OUT fast, so always going to create issues for riders. And being so long it can make lines and throttle timing tricky too.
I definitely prefer slow corners rather than heart in your mouth wide open fast turns. I've often wondered why I make up so much time in slow turns. I didn't realise so many people struggled with them.
Damn it! I got rid of my ZX6R about five years ago and bought a KLR. Never had much fun on the KLR and now it just sits and I never ride. After watching this video, I'm shopping for ratty track bikes. Thanks. lol
A bike is less stable in a slow corner because the wheels are acting as gyroscopes. The faster they spin, the more resistant they are to changing their angle of lean. This is why racers need to hang themselves further off the bike in faster corners; getting more of their weight off the seat applies a greater amount of force to lean the bike over.
I rode a kart track a couple weeks ago on a Grom. That bike is great in tight slow stuff. My Tuono, not so much. I think the bike you ride makes a big difference. Taking my Tuono to Buttonwillow Monday which is said to be technical. I've never been so we shall see. I know the steering lock on the Tuono is very narrow so some mountain roads are no fun at all because I have to use all the lane and then some to get through some switchbacks. Moving that slow on a V4 is awful because she needs to move to stay cool.
My dear friend as I had Tuono it is a blast in the mountain roads and in slow corners on the track, when I started to ride more on the track, you just have to use the rear brake. I got past so many riders on the slow corners with my Tuono. You just have to get accustomed to full lean angle and do fast transitions and bike will follow. It is so planted in the corners and what I liked is the return of info from the front wheel. Phenomenal chassis.
Really enjoy your videos. Keep it up. Many of your videos (like this one) show the rider from a chase motorcycle. This is a really excellent way to show proper body position. However, I notice that many riders when videoed from behind appear crossed up...that is, their head is over the tank while their butt is hanging off.
Im suprised you didnt mention the (imagininary) centrifigual force. This helps provide support for your body during higher speed corners but falls off during lower speed ones.
I’ve always enjoyed slow corners. It’s because where I live is full of tight slow bend after bend. I’m a novice rider but still pass most in slow corners
I actually LOVE slow corners, they do require a lot more technique and feel, and if you make a blunter the consequences are not as high =P... I mean fast corners are suuuuper fun! But given that my mindset is not in refining my technique, slow corners are the best for me
Please make one video on counter steering Like how does counter steering helps and all the technical terms about it. Thank you and you are doing a great job, keep it up👌👌😁♥️
Interesting, I find the tighter corners easiest and gain the most ground. Especially breaking into them, most chicken out as they don't have the confidence in breaking. One of my weaknesses is high speed corners where speed is in excess of 200kmh or 240kmh. I find these more demanding physically due to the forces. Have you got any tips in that area?
this is kinda surprising and weird to find out because Indonesian roadrace scene is very heavy on technical slow corners, the drag occuring on high speed corners mentioned in the video is actually scarier for me
Not much, very similar. I was a regular mountain roads rider when I started riding on the track, and I adored slow corners. However, as I am riding more and more on the track I prefer now faster corners because of the flow. I am still very good at slower corners, but that is not the place where you will gain seconds on the track.
Yep, I'm way more comfortable on slow corners. Fast corners I have timing issues (could be lack of track experience) and tend to miss apexes. I do ride a supermoto and it seems like those things excel at slower speed maneuvers.
3:58 incorrect. The feeling of falling over is actually you beginning to fall over. This is because you're nearing the point when your speed will be too low to force your body and bike outward enough to counteract gravity and pivot you upward to keep you from falling. Though it is true that the bike gets more sensitive to outward forces at lower speeds, it does not explain what you're trying to make it explain here. Sorry if I'm curt but this wasn't the only time I got annoyed at your explanations. They're factually substandard. This video sounds like someone who is familiar with something in practice try to explain it in theory, when really he doesn't understand it. But I guess you're helping others who will accept any explanation as long as results are what they are.
"Focus on being comfortable so you can do your job" is the mantra I'll be taking to my next TD Saturday. As always thanks for the vids.
Also to add to a great video is make sure you keep your head up and looking down the track, it’s very easy to look down at the curbs during slow hairpins.
I've started my track riding and learning on small tracks - thus I feel pretty confident even in tight harpins. But I fully understand that it takes time to overcome the feeling of "falling". Good idea is to practice tight corners with open throttle through whole corner - its slower (you need to brake more) but it gives You extra stability. As you fell more confident you just take a next step and trailbrake. Cheers.
After doing 3000+ miles of hairpin corners in the Pyrenees I now feel at ease in really slow corners. The skills I learned in the mountains translated very nicely on track.
Increasing core body strength also helps massively.
Here in Ukraine, there are about 4 go kart tracks where motorcycle riders can train, and only one "big" track, but with horrible pavement and rare track days schedule. So I learned to love low speed corners and small tracks :) I'd like to add, that at slow corners, if you hang your butt off too much, not only it will be physically demanding, you will also loose a lot of time in hairpins and chicanes, since getting back up and ready for the next corner takes more time compared to a more conservative body position.
This is truly one of your best videos. You have explicitly targeted so many of us whose main issue is really core strength in low speed corners. You’ve honestly given me my focus area for next season. Well done.
Losing sooo much time in the slow corners.. finding these kind of video's will help eventually :)
Another great video Dan, useful not just for the track! I just returned from the mountains of my home state of VA. It was my 1st motorcycle ride on what may be Virginia’s best sports car/motorcycle road - Route 16 between Marion and Tazewell - they call it The Back of The Dragon: 32 miles, up and over 3 mountains, through 2 valleys (be sure to stop at The BOTD store in Tazewell and say hi to Larry!). In 32 miles you’ll find every sort of curve you can think of - slow, fast, uphill, downhill, constant radius, decreasing radius, etc., mostly well banked, all laid out on a delicious, well maintained asphalt. Oh, and the speed limit is 55! Keith Code’s CSS , taken in Mar. of this year, and your training videos all year long, enhanced the experience riding very technical mountain roads!! Props for all you do!!!
Yes! Excellent observations! I too am challenged in slower corners for all the mentions in the video. I'm thinking high speed sweeping corners are much more enjoyable due to stability and the feel of the suspension, tires and road surface truly working in concert. Love the feel of a planted bike!
Good points that the bike will be more stable at high speed. That gives a rider more confidence when riding through a faster turn. Slower speed corners require more precision because the bike is more sensitive, especially if the rider changes body position mid-corner or isn't smooth with the throttle. Being smooth means setting your line and body position. Small bobbles are much more noticeable in slower corners. However, you haven't mentioned that lower gear require better throttle control, and some slower corners require heavier braking on entry. Those add to the complexity of slower corners. Track day riders should be reminded that the slower corners are where you can learn the most to clean up your riding mistakes.
Good observations as usual. By now they should be obvious but often aren't, so thanks Dan :-) My home track is relatively slow & technical (~210kph straight) so I now find the slow corners more comfortable. When I attend a flowing track like Phillip Island, I am swamped by most riders on the fast corners only to peel past 2-4 riders at a time entering Turn 5 (Honda) and 10 (MG)...the two slowest corners at the track. I need to spend more time at some fast tracks to improve my confidence I think.
I would add one other reason. Perception. We tend to get into a rhythm on track and that rhythm stays, for the most part, consistent through the various corners. While going through the faster corners we’ve conditioned ourselves to hit an entry window approaching the turn at a certain speed and approach angle with little to no room to adjust that line once set. In the slower turns it seems to take FOREVER to get through it which leads to multiple opportunities to change lines, intentional or not, all the while with the sense of urgency screaming in the back of our head that this is taking to long and get back on the throttle already. Our brain has problems with the different relative times between the very fast and the very slow. Some turns just can’t be taken fast no matter how much we want too and we need to learn to control that clock in our head.
Good tips. I tend to like slow turns because they're so challenging and the downside of messing up is far less. This is especially true on the street.
The most extreme track example I've encountered are turns 13 and 14 at the Streets (Willow Springs, CA), which are 180 degree turns only about 75 feet apart, and where I can't get above about 25mph. If you go into 13 just 1 mph too hot, you go wide and that exaggerates your miss on 14, which screws you up going into the long straight. I can never get the super-quick change in body position complete and so don't bother - I'm just not that good and my 6'2" large build doesn't help. It boils down to getting smooth and somewhat relaxed, which is hard enough.
I'd rather wreck on a really really tight hairpin on the street compared to wrecking on a flatout kink lol
For racing slow corners are crucial to master, you can dive into a tight corner and park it in front of another rider and once you are in front it will be as hard for them to pass is it was for you to pass them leading up to that point and if you do it on the last 2 laps it may be enough of a buffer the keep the place gained before thew flag.
Likewise in the first lap getting around as many as you can in the first tight corner can give you clean air to get away from the pack who will continue to slow each other down behind you.
Passing on long corners is the same as passing on straight in that both are a drag race and if you do not have more power to win the drag race then tight corners are the best option to get a pass in.
I feel more happy on slow and technical tracks. It makes you commit to your lines more strictly therefore transferring that discipline to fast and sweeping tracks as well.
Just have to say I watch all you vids and always excited to see new one. Your very good at explaining sometimes very difficult things remarkably well. Always learning from you. Cheers :)
As usual excellent advice. Practice slow corner style on the road, simply because you are there more often. Although track is focused on speed the slower corners on the road can teach you control. Okay that may be obvious but hey worth your time.
This hit the nail on the head for me! ❤
fantastic topic Dan, slow, at times “parking lot” speed corners are definitely a struggle especially if you want to keep your line, while trying to go as fast as you can. But in all fairness, that’s not where people can make up time.. i struggle with such corners.
For me, the added difficulty of slow corners is related with my difficulty in doing an effective quick flick and "falling" into the lean angle that would be ideal or desirable... And then once I've turned in, it's as if I feel that there's nothing I can really do or change... On faster more flowing corners, I still do a quick (ish) flick but just feels slower tipping in, which makes it easier to gauge and control... At least that's kinda how I feel.
John Barroso Pereira gyro effect on the high speed corners makes them feel easier
I think that the timing aspect and patience needed tend to also add to the challenge, we’re riding to go fast and suddenly we’re required to slow it down. It’s definitely a place where counterintuitive actions need to be executed.
I feel more comfortable in slow corners than in fast ones, and that because I don't have access to a large racetrack. Majority of my riding happens on narrow twisty roads, parking lots (gymkhana) and karting tracks. I can easily scrape pegs in a mountain hairpin when going like 30-50kph, but everything above 120kph is pretty scary.
Another interesting thing is that suspension is usually set up for faster speeds and when going slower frontend feels twitchy.
Funny you show the hairpin at Snetterton. That the only corner I really feel uncomfortable on. That is appart from the long sweeping right hander before the start finish straight. I find myself starting the corner at a good pace, but slowly slowing down through out it an dtjen braking. Rather than keeping a good consistent speed and then braking at the braking point.
Coram (penultimate corner) is BALLS OUT fast, so always going to create issues for riders. And being so long it can make lines and throttle timing tricky too.
I definitely prefer slow corners rather than heart in your mouth wide open fast turns. I've often wondered why I make up so much time in slow turns. I didn't realise so many people struggled with them.
Damn it! I got rid of my ZX6R about five years ago and bought a KLR. Never had much fun on the KLR and now it just sits and I never ride. After watching this video, I'm shopping for ratty track bikes. Thanks. lol
A bike is less stable in a slow corner because the wheels are acting as gyroscopes. The faster they spin, the more resistant they are to changing their angle of lean. This is why racers need to hang themselves further off the bike in faster corners; getting more of their weight off the seat applies a greater amount of force to lean the bike over.
I rode a kart track a couple weeks ago on a Grom. That bike is great in tight slow stuff. My Tuono, not so much. I think the bike you ride makes a big difference. Taking my Tuono to Buttonwillow Monday which is said to be technical. I've never been so we shall see. I know the steering lock on the Tuono is very narrow so some mountain roads are no fun at all because I have to use all the lane and then some to get through some switchbacks. Moving that slow on a V4 is awful because she needs to move to stay cool.
My dear friend as I had Tuono it is a blast in the mountain roads and in slow corners on the track, when I started to ride more on the track, you just have to use the rear brake. I got past so many riders on the slow corners with my Tuono. You just have to get accustomed to full lean angle and do fast transitions and bike will follow. It is so planted in the corners and what I liked is the return of info from the front wheel. Phenomenal chassis.
Faster are more my thing “Ramshoek” at Assen, love it💪🏼💪🏼
Great advice, as always. Thank you!
Really enjoy your videos. Keep it up. Many of your videos (like this one) show the rider from a chase motorcycle. This is a really excellent way to show proper body position. However, I notice that many riders when videoed from behind appear crossed up...that is, their head is over the tank while their butt is hanging off.
Not everyone takes the time to learn, so often riders just don't know any different.
Yes I like the slow corners, but indeed I'm not hanging off that much. More neutral bodyposition and concentrating on loose on the bars
Im suprised you didnt mention the (imagininary) centrifigual force. This helps provide support for your body during higher speed corners but falls off during lower speed ones.
I’ve always enjoyed slow corners. It’s because where I live is full of tight slow bend after bend. I’m a novice rider but still pass most in slow corners
Maybe practising motogymkhana would be beneficial for riders who want to improve their slow corner skills ;-).
I actually LOVE slow corners, they do require a lot more technique and feel, and if you make a blunter the consequences are not as high =P... I mean fast corners are suuuuper fun! But given that my mindset is not in refining my technique, slow corners are the best for me
What's your thoughts on the use of Ohvale bikes among professionals? What's the benefit?
Another great video
Please make one video on counter steering
Like how does counter steering helps and all the technical terms about it.
Thank you and you are doing a great job, keep it up👌👌😁♥️
Countersteering is how we steer bikes, so it helps a lot 😁, but seriously though it is a topic I'd like to cover.
Great
Would love to watch that video 👍👍
10 months later @@
Man you are telepatic some kind, yeah there is struggle in slow speed corner, training in cart track hepls, byt its a hard work on superbike
Interesting, I find the tighter corners easiest and gain the most ground. Especially breaking into them, most chicken out as they don't have the confidence in breaking. One of my weaknesses is high speed corners where speed is in excess of 200kmh or 240kmh. I find these more demanding physically due to the forces. Have you got any tips in that area?
@Sunyata Thanks, Thats good advice. Next time I'll work with this and try to expand my limits. Small steps might be best. Thanks
For me i prefer "old school" hand off for tight or slow hairpins and elbow down for high speed corners 😂just my two cents cheers yall
this is kinda surprising and weird to find out because Indonesian roadrace scene is very heavy on technical slow corners, the drag occuring on high speed corners mentioned in the video is actually scarier for me
Another reason I hate slow corners: I can't guess the grip level I got. I can't load the front tyre properly.
I'm the one who likes slow corners then fast ones :)
How different is slow corners on track than on twisty mountain roads?
Not much, very similar. I was a regular mountain roads rider when I started riding on the track, and I adored slow corners. However, as I am riding more and more on the track I prefer now faster corners because of the flow. I am still very good at slower corners, but that is not the place where you will gain seconds on the track.
Its because sportbike frame geometry is suited for high speed sweepers on car racing tracks. Supermotos fucking shred tight technical tracks.
Yep, I'm way more comfortable on slow corners. Fast corners I have timing issues (could be lack of track experience) and tend to miss apexes. I do ride a supermoto and it seems like those things excel at slower speed maneuvers.
I prefer slow corners rather than high speed corner because it is easier to steer but if there are multiple slow corners in a row..:(
Best place to pass.
Thankfully, i've subscribed motojitsu channel. He's teaching for become a rider
I allsow find the slow cornes more difficult at the streets
No I do not really care for them I am always all over the place never hit that Apex right.
If something goes wrong in a 100+ MPH fast corner it's more likely to go very wrong so I prefer slow corners.
Someone buy a ZX-10R!?!?
I did!
3:58 incorrect. The feeling of falling over is actually you beginning to fall over. This is because you're nearing the point when your speed will be too low to force your body and bike outward enough to counteract gravity and pivot you upward to keep you from falling. Though it is true that the bike gets more sensitive to outward forces at lower speeds, it does not explain what you're trying to make it explain here.
Sorry if I'm curt but this wasn't the only time I got annoyed at your explanations. They're factually substandard. This video sounds like someone who is familiar with something in practice try to explain it in theory, when really he doesn't understand it.
But I guess you're helping others who will accept any explanation as long as results are what they are.