P-51D Mustang vs BF-109K-4: Dogfight | DCS WORLD
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ก.ค. 2024
- We simulate dogfights between America's legendary P-51D Mustang and Germany's late war BF-109K-4.
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0:00 Overview
1:20 Statistics
2:45 Predictions
4:50 1 vs 1 Battles
21:57 3 vs 3 Battles
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#GRDogfight #DCSDogfight #Dogfight #WWII #WorldWar2 #P51 #Mustang #BF109 #GR #DCSWorld #Aviation #AviationGaming #FlightSimulators #Military - เกม
Cap, you are sounding better, hope you are feeling better as well. I totally appreciate the economic and logistical angles you bring to these match-ups. Hats off to everyone at GR for a great series!
Exactly what I was going to say.
I'd love to see a billion dollars worth of 1 fighter versus a billion dollars worth of another. Old fighter versus new.
Cool idea, I like it a lot
Although I don't think they server could handle the 5 F-22s vs 1000 P-51s (aka the tactical blob)
Adjusted for inflation of course though, right?
gotta say cap, you were flying the hell out of that P-51.
That was a GREAT dog fight until you unfortunately hit terrain. I think you had him if that wouldn't have happened.
OMG I was on the edge of my seat 😂, especially when he tried to force the overshoot
That was also the most passive flown 109 I have ever seen 😂, if he had pulled vertical once the mustang would have stalled and that would have been the fight. If yout not winning a turnfight DONT KEEP TURNFIGHTING
Cap - very fair competition, and the 109 K-4 won (as it should, IME). Have spent many hours flying warbirds in DCS, and the 109 K-4 -- as modeled in DCS -- is just superior to the P-51D. Interestingly, I've also flown them in IL-2, and there the D-model Mustang feels far more competitive to the 109 K-4, even without 150 octane fuel. In IL-2, the 109 K-4 feels like a monster bomber interceptor, but you feel much more of the 1930s airframe being pushed to its limits at the faster speeds and higher altitudes of late 1944. It doesn't have the sparkling high speed controllability and turn that DCS offers the Kurfurst. Not entirely clear which sim is modeling the K-4 better, but they certainly feel different.
great video! The 109K4 is just a monster of a plane. Frickin massive engine on a small plane, the Mustang's real advantage is performance at altitude and retention of energy in a dive which the 109 somewhat lacks/makes up for with its massive engine. I feel like the fight was pretty close, the Mustang much like the Dora requires a lot of experience to know where its limits are. Both also have that horrible wing tip stall. The 109 by comparison is easier to handle when you throw the stick around. Would be cool if you did a mixed battle! Maybe replicate a scenario with 109s and 190s attacking a group of P-51s and maybe P-47s. A WW2 campaign would be great as well.
Yeah!! That's my main right there - good to see it doing so well. I think popular history tends to have a distorted view of particularly the late 109s due to level of training in the German pilots during the late war. The 109 demands and richly rewards expertise, but from ~1944- it was being flown by guys with less than ten hours who were fully occupied just staying in the air.
One piece of advice: I noticed you all dropping flaps to pull harder in to turns. What you want to do in that situation is actually trim your stabilizer tail-heavy. That wheel actually moves the whole stabilizer, not just the elevator, so when you do that you actually get a little more turn rate in exchange for speed. That said, you're going to overshoot you might want to consider just taking your excess power and going into a climb - your enemy probably can't follow you if you're already that much faster, since the 109 climbs like a monster. You can then just drop down and achieve a perfect kill position at your leisure.
don't forget the 1944 109 was a plane being built on smashed production lines with sometimes slave labor. What we see in video games is an "on paper" 109.
and I'd also say that even DCS sufferers the .50 cal syndrome like Il2 does. Damage models just can't account for the critical systems a .50 could and did hit in real life with todays technology. with simple enough damage models a PC can calculate an AP reliant aircraft is always gonna be at a disadvantage
@@TheGimpy117 I feel like most of the time my .50 do a decent amount of damage when I hit vital parts. I think il2 does it a bit better then dcs with ID damage model but dcs has taken some steps in the right direction recently.
As for the k4 modelled in dcs I think it performs as it should have if it was manufactured correctly but you are correct in some regard. I feel like with the mustang they based it off it’s modern day stats then wartime stats. I don’t mind the k4 having its top trump stats as long as they make the other aircraft perform to wartime spec. I’ll be honest when the mosquito came out I was quite disappointed in its speed. The il2 version feels like a rocket in comparison but il2 allows you to configure the mosquito to wartime specs. 18 pounds of boost max in dcs 24 in il2 with wartime fuel being 150 octane. I don’t think dcs will ever rework there ww2 side because they just don’t make as much as there modern stuff which is fair enough dcs is a modern / Cold War over everything else which it does very well. But il2 is still THEE BEST ww2 sim out there
@@hasina1461 yeah, I dunno it's kind of a necessary to model late war 109's to design spec, or at least spec of the few "perfect" test aircraft they had...I suppose my point is to highlight the fact that there is a real chance that this is one of the reasons why the mustangs dominated the 109's over Europe. in games like IL2 and DCS (especially IL2) this kind of generous realism creates a situation where a lot of players have gravitated to planes like the 109 because of it's on paper advantages giving servers frequent imbalance
@@hasina1461 It was a great disadvantage in the war for the german planes to have to use low octane fuel and overcoming its limitations with stuff like MW50 injection and such... but its an advantage in games, as its performance on paper will allways be the same. With allied planes tho, they didn't have that "150 octane wartime fuel" all the time. If they ran with lesser fuel, their engines had to be tuned down. Specially early on there was shortage of high octane fuel, specially for the brits. The spitfires that flew during the battle of france for example often had no better fuel then their german counterparts and where outperformed massivley by 109's. Later during the battle of britain, they had high octane american fuel and performed so much better.
The Mustang was a larger airframe than either the 109 or Spit, it made it perfect to become a long range escort with large internal fuel. It's aerodinamics were top, so it was competitive against other fighters, but it paid the price with extra weight.
Altought the Merlin gave new life to the Mustang it still wasn't developed to the maximum capacity of it's airframe, like the 109K4 here or other late war Spits. The war ended before we saw these monsters, and jets were the future anyway.
The best 'real life' comparison against the 109K4 would be a P51-H, but I think that the most potential theoretical Mustang would have been ones powered by Grifon engines. I think ones with the counter-rotating props Grifons would have been 500mph/800kph+ jet killer monsters.
EDIT: Reference about weight and mission profile of the P-51D airframe: I don't have either aircraft in DCS, but I have them in IL-2 Great Battles. Neither aircraft has external drop tanks in that sim.
P-51D-15 max internal fuel: 1018 Liters
109 K-4 max internal fuel: 400 Liters
P-51D-15 30% fuel: 310 L
109 K-4 30% fuel: 120 L
The P-51D at 30 % fuel is carrying almost 3 times the fuel quantity of the 109 K-4. To fly with the same quantity of fuel as the 109K-4 at 30% the Mustang would have to be at 12%.
I'm always telling P-51 fans that the D model wasn't the final production variant, and that the F-82 "Twin Mustang" wasn't based on the D model, either. I think there's exactly one P-51H flying today. I forget how they said they got it.
@@rustyATV Even the Merlin powered P-51Ds could have faced the 109K-4 on more equal terms. By wars end the Merlins were doing more than 2000hp. Just reengine the latest series of P-51D airframes with the latest Merlins, no need for the P51H revised airframe.
Also, as a reference about weight and mission profile of the P-51D airframe: I don't have either aircraft in DCS, but I have them in IL-2 Great Battles. Neither aircraft has external drop tanks in that sim.
P-51D-15 max internal fuel: 1018 Liters
109 K-4 max internal fuel: 400 Liters
P-51D-15 30% fuel: 310 L
109 K-4 30% fuel: 120 L
The P-51D at 30 % fuel is carrying close to 3 times the fuel quantity of the 109 K-4. To fly with the same quantity of fuel as the 109K-4 at 30% the Mustang would have to be at 12%.
I think that the Bf-109 would have been even better if it were possible to replace the MK108 30mm cannon with a MG151/20, it would have better ballistics (almost identical to the 13mm MG ballistics) + more ammo + slightly higher ROF. The only negative is that the 20mm would have a lot less explosive than the 30mm (but the German 20mm still is strong, has Minengeschoss shells with a lot of explosive for a 20mm)
In IL-2 where we have the option, I tend to prefer the 20mm. It's much better against fighters and ground targets since you don't immediately run out of ammo. 30mm is the king of bomber-klling though.
@@hanswolfgangmercer what about the mg 131’s? for comparison are they basically equal in power to the us 50 cal m2 brownings?
@@nickrockz97 Yes, they're roughly the same caliber, but the fact of their being 50/50 explosive and AP makes them more effective imo.
In a dogfight I tend to use the 131s to reel a target in with hits to the control surfaces and then I finish it off with a round or two of 30mm.
I think the 30 mm is underpowered in DCS. Real-life data shows that it should kill with a single shot on a fighter. A single shot will blow off a wing or a tail. This just doesn't happen in DCS.
Hey Cap feel better. That 109 is really formidable. Hit with a 30mm is a bad day. I love the '51, but the 109 is really something.
Get well Cap.
Excellent, and particularly good analysis of the two types during the predictions section.
One possibility for a rematch. In this competition, you seemed to start your merge at ~10,000 ft. That's already playing in the 109's preferred envelope. Try starting the fight at 25,000 ft and see if it changes the results?
While I'm just a GR at heart (for now) I'd like to remind everyone in the US south east that the MCAS Beaufort air show is the weekend of April 22 in Beaufort South Carolina!
FWIW, the -109K4 wasn't so much a performance improvement over the myriad of -109Gs (in some ways it was a step back). It was a (failed) attempt to try and standardize on a single version to simplify production.
A-1 Skyraider VS F4U Corsair
F-86 Sabre VS A-10 Thunderbolt II
P-47 Thunderbolt VS SU-25 Frogfoot
MB-339 Aermacchi VS MIG-15
F-111 Aardvark VS MIG-27K
J-7 VS MIG-21
AV-8 Harrier VS F-35B
J-10 VS SU-27
Good morning, happy Easter GR!
You’re sounding much better! Have a great Easter!
Because the real scenario was not equal. Rookie pilots and beeing outnumbered dissolved any advantage in aircraft performance. A 1 vs. 1 dogfight between ace pilots was rare at this time of the war.
Very cool - love these comparisons.
When you get to choose the dynamic of the fight, that's what it will take. Whomever is more successful at fighting to their own strengths, who can coax the enemy to play into their strategy.
Great flying by Cap, not sure why he’s whiffing bullets by not using the gyro gun sight though. Yanking on the stick to guess at lead in a turn fight is a great way to drop a wing in a Mustang.
An adjustable bore sight would sure be nice. If you use the K14 properly in AA mode you get a far higher percentage of hits.
Ive done this dogfight many times and the stang on the deck with a notch of flaps almost always wins, unless I fly into the ground, lol.
all memes aside, Fly is quite good at this.
Thanks man
If you want to win the Bf-109K-4 in a dogfight when you are flying a P-51D, then try to meet it above 25.000 feet. The better two stage supercharger of the Merlin-66 engine ( Packard-V-1650 ) will give you superior thrust to weight and sustained turn advantage. The Bf-109K-4 entered service in October 1944 just seven months earlier than the end of the war and it has a high horsepower to weight ratio and superior speed due to its smaller wingspan, yet again on the other side especially when flying at high altitudes it must have issues with stalling at relatively small angles of attack.
Going vertical in this scenario only offers a target. I would suggest circling down to hedge hopping height to create a two dimensional fight scenario in which the mustang can best exploit its lighter wingloading. I would think at low level the mustang would have a minor advantage using landforms for hiding places.
@@squiremc I don't mean going vertical. I mean that one should at the mission builder adjust the encounter at 25.000 feet or even 30.000 feet. Then try to exploit the great output of the Packard-V-1650 engine at that altitudes. Turning a two circle dogfight and achieving small angular gains while spiralling downwards. After several circles ( one must be patient ) the Messerschmit will probably appear close to the HUD ( about 45 degrees ), then deploy flaps and pull lead. This is an admission of Erich Hartmann in one of his interviews on the question which aircraft was better : the P-51D or the Bf-109. He stated the Messerschmitt was better at medium to low altitudes whereas the P-51D dominated the high altitudes.
@@catfood_03_4stray The circumstances you have outlined would indeed provide an advantage to the mustang.
I think it would still rely somewhat on pilot expertise as this is pushing the envelope, but I see your point.
@@squiremc - It's also more realistic, since they were designed to beat the 109s and 190s at high altitude.
@@Max_Griswald Yes.
Before I go any further, I'm putting in my choice....
P-51D.
I would rather die in a mustang. Looks like I chosed the right plane....lol
It would be interesting to see the Bf-109K vs. The Corsair, if they had the F4U in DCS.
F4U European theatre in general would be interesting. I have heard said that if the P-51 hadn't been built, that the Corsair would have been used instead.
Heard someone is releasing one soon for DCS.
Corsair should win every time.
If you are interested in this topic, Gregs Airplanes and Automobiles has a video discussing this called "Corsair and Hellcat Vs. Bf 109 and Fw 190". US Navy fighters are unique in that the sights are very fitting for deflection shooting, as the navy/marines were the only flying forces of the time to train this form of gunnery.
Understanding WW2 aircraft fighters and how to get the advantage in a dogfight is a pilot skill and can be done regardless of aircraft... 👀
it's knowing the trix and trade of dogfighting how to use any aircraft to your advantage that's pure skill.😎
And that really got nothing to do with the aircraft performance thingy thing altho a good pilot in a well performance aircraft sure has a advantage etc...
( it also help knowing how to fly WW2 prop aircraft like ww2 aircrafts and not like they are jets )😜😂
Keep up the greatness! CHEERS!
Hi Mich! Welcome back.
@@grimreapers Thank you.. :D
Don't forget to go back into the map and paint a kill marking on that tree
What I find amazing is how well a 1930's original airframe stomps the snot out of what is cited by many as the best fighter aircraft of wwii,
on 87 octane
It's often cited that the 109 quickly became outdated, but I would contest it's one of the best fighters of the war if not THE best. It was fast enough to disengage from enemies that could out turn it and it could out turn everything else.
It was even produced after the war and served with israel and fought against egyptian spitfires.
Could you consider adding to your stats table rounds carried per weapon type ?
Bf-109k-4 only has that power for total of 20 minutes in 2 10 minutes, when it uses Water/Methanol is like an afterburn for a boost but it is limited. Due to cooling and boost in supercharging it added about 500 hp. Above 20,000 ft it added only 4% power. With the MW50 system in use you would have the 1825 hp. without it most information states the DB605 had 1600 hp.
2000 hp was only with WM-50 for 20 minutes. P-51 does have self sealing tanks and Bf-109 does not and very little armor.
Hhmm pretty sure the Bf109 had self sealing fuel tanks since the F variant... but regardless the Bf109 does not have fuel tanks in the wings, its only fuel tank is behind the pilot in the fuselage therefore it is less critical anyway.
Armour is mostly pointless on most of those aircraft. If the P-51 gets hit by just one shell from the MK 108 it is basically game over and nothing both sides could fit in those fighters would stop either the .50 cal or the 13mm machine gun from doing damage.
The Germans increased their armament of their fighters not because of the durability of allied fighters but because they had to face a lot of heavy bombers.
The MK 108 needed considerably less hits to take down a B17 than the MG 151. If I recall it correctly on average the MG 151 needed about 20 decent hits to take down a B17, the MK 108 only needed about 3...
Germany hardly had any heavy bombers and therefore the .50 cal was "good enough" and proven to be effective and reliable.
As for the MW50 it was ingenious idea to close a performance gap that could not be closed otherwise.
I'd love to see the map picture in picture for each fight, it would add a lot I feel. Great video awesome idea
I like the more modern stuff but there ain't nuthin' like a good warbirds session. Nice one guys.
If these americans get so mad. Tell them to get in and see if they can do any better.
I will, at 25,000 feet.
Manoeuvres forbidden in the P51 (according to the manual):
- Inverted flying must be limited to no more 10 seconds, otherwise it will lead to loss of oil pressure due to scavenger pump being unable to operate in the inverted position.
- Intentional "power on" spins and snap rolls are prohibited
What about pulling Gs while inverted?
You should do Zero vs me-109
Matrix vs Hasina was a satisfying watch. P-51 carried almost twice the amount of fuel, 60 - 70% more if compared to empty weight.
Ooh how cool! I just bought both in the sale but can't fly either yet.
Dang, I can see clear through that wing!
After frog say's nine,nine,nine... I see a certain kind of mustache on him...lol
Would love to see a historical reenactment of the US in WW2 the interception of admiral Yamamoto using P38 lightnings. No cheating and see if you could intercept him like it was done back then. Also would like to see the F6F Hellcat fighting the Zero as in pacific theater in WW2 the hellcat had a kill ratio over the zero 19.1
Thanks Cap,
cap, cap, watch out for that tree...lol
I hope everyone had of is having a wonderful and safe Easter.
I think everyone should put as many hours as possible in Warbirds as they can become a much better pilot in all aircraft IF they apply themselves. With that said I do wish ED and DCS would add more Warbirds to their inventory, I would like to see any of all of the HELLCATS, WILDCATS, CORSAIRS, as it would add great dynamics to naval battles and reenactments.
PLEASE LEAVE A COMMANT BELOW ON THE WARBIRDS YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE ADDED TO DCS AND AS CAP WOULD SAY " THAT IS ALL"
Remember the P51 wasn't used because it was the best plane. It was used because it was a good plane that could escort bombers all the way to the target and back. By the time the P51B showed up the British in their Spitfires and Americans in their P47s had killed the vast majority of the great, good, and decent German pilots. And the P51s got to shoot down the leftovers that bearly could take off(infact more Germans planes in the 1944 period were lost to takeoffs and landing than to allied bullets and shells.)
People keep talking about planes, and seemingly forgetting the tactics involved.
It wasn't until Jimmy Doolittle arrived in Europe did the Allies start to win the air war in the West.
"Doolittle's major influence on the European air war occurred late in 1943-and primarily after he took command of the Eighth Air Force on January 6, 1944
When he changed the policy of requiring escorting fighters to remain with their bombers at all times. Instead, he permitted escort fighters to fly far ahead of the bombers' combat box formations, allowing them to freely engage the German fighters lying in wait for the bombers.
Throughout most of 1944, this tactic negated the effectiveness of the twin-engined Zerstörergeschwader heavy fighter wings and single-engined Sturmgruppen of heavily armed Fw 190As by clearing the Luftwaffe's bomber destroyers from ahead of the bomber formations.
After the bombers had hit their targets, the American fighters were free to strafe German airfields, transportation, and other “targets of opportunity” on their return flight to base. These tasks were initially performed with Lockheed P-38 Lightnings and Republic P-47 Thunderbolts through the end of 1943. They were progressively replaced with the long-ranged North American P-51 Mustangs as the spring of 1944 wore on
Altitude makes all Uber difference, too.
If you've flown the Mustang between 10 and 15,000 feet, that's my least favorite place to start a fight. The supercharger isn't tuned for power at this altitude. Above this, maybe 17 or 18k when Stage 2 blower kicks in, it's a whole other animal. At 20k and above, I have had great success against the even the 109K. Haven't put much time into the Jug yet, but I'd bet it's even lot dominant up high, where the bombers lived.
Ive been flying the 51 on MP against dry and juiced 109s for 100s of hours. The 51 needs altitude and potential energy coming into that fight. A neutral merge like this is quite «unrealistic» in a sense. The dogfight starts way before the merge. Positioning yourself correctly at high altitude will make the fight more even. When defensive against a 109, make him overshoot with mid throttle OOP flat scissors maneuvers. Your roll rate will favor the 51 in such a situation. Knife fighting a 109 down low is basically asking for trouble, but as always - everything can happen - and its all about the pilot in control 😉(rudderwork and 1 notch of flap is key at rate fighting a 109. Keep the ball centered!)
Fliege ist ein Biest
Lmao, when he hit that freaking tree
I admit that the Mustang is the one aircraft that I am probably strongest with in DCS and I struggle to defeat the 109K. It comes down to the pilot here. And I always find that patience and simply maneuvering to survive is my best bet and I can wear down the 109 and let it make a mistake. Also, if I can wound it, from there it’s just a matter of waiting it out
We had some very nice and interesting fights
I need to do a 1vs1 with Hasina one day
Hi Fly
It’s definitely the best pilot who will win. A good Pilot will go into the merge reading the third circle and planning ahead
It certainly helps to be a good shot.
@@themchangesband not with warbirds. You basically want to saddle up (term) and then shoot them at very close range. A lot of players don’t even know a plane is on their six until it fires. Point being don’t shoot high off angle. Shoot as close as you can to the enemy directly on their six 😀
@@BitLeg Well, I haven't played that particular game, but I have done a lot of online aerial combat (even before the Jane's stuff), and I've flown just about every type of combat aircraft modeled, and I've found that not every pilot is that accommodating.
@@themchangesband For planes that have similar performance, especially warbirds, you ain’t usually going to win the fight in one or two circles because the turn rates and climb and dive rates are so evenly matched. That is what I meant about planning for a third circle (or more) solution. Certainly the bandit isn’t going to be accommodating but the dance is best done if you are planning ahead for the solution because often you won’t be able to force one after the merge very quickly. I hope that makes sense.
What are these little flaps doing on the 109 , on the wing tips . Same as the 262 it looks like , does it help against a wing drop ?
One thing I think is important to mention is the uncontrollable variable of pilot skill and fighting style. Since it's impossible to dogfight yourself, you can't control for variability in pilots. Also, even if you could, one aircraft might win solely because the pilot's style prioritizes it's strengths.
They need to make the P-51H-5-NA
Beat that fkn covid, man, get well soon!
Cracking patient flying by Matrix
I think that was the most genuine shout of ballocks I've ever heard on this channel! 🤣 I think it's just those slats though, it's just enough of an edge.
And damn, let's give a nod to Masena and Fly for that dual, holy crap good flying you guys.
“The good lord saw fit not to land any of my bullets.” - Cap
😂
Now at minute 15 and no one used WEP on the mustang. It is key-bindet to unlock the thrustlever to go further for more manifoldpressure and therefore more horses in the pony.
Whats the roll rate. think the 109 would have an sig adv
This format is pretty cool. Only thing I think it could be improved is to lower the sound of the aircraft a bit. Sometimes is hard to hear the comments.
Why do I never see any of the boys flying P-47Ds? I was just wondering. If I remember correctly (not saying I do), it was originally made as a dog fighter. Just the P-51 had a better range, so it took the bomber escort 😢 by the time the P-47s were inside their mission range, and all that was really left was ground pounding missions. But it was rumored to be a very good dogfighter
I want to do a p47 vs A8 which I put forward to Cap
Not really a good dogfighter at all in most situations except for it's higher energy at higher altitudes and that it beats a 109K4 in a turn at very slow speeds at very low altitude. Most shootdowns that occurred in real life were boom and zooms. The P-47 didn't need to be a good dogfighter because it had 8 .50's pointed down range purposefully spread-out with the idea of hits making it because of statistics. Fun fact the P-47 had the highest kill rate of allied fighter of the war, not per plane but as a whole since so many were escorting B-17's in 1943-44 before the P51 started escorting.
@@berenhamilton3321 Check outs Greg's Airplanes and Automibiles he has some vids featuring him fighting in a P47 and in good hands that thing can suprise you.
Great video hard part is I don’t know if you guys are wide-open like in the Mustang are you wide-open military power or are you saving a little bit when you’re going up I just curious would like to hear that part or at least see it in the video
Okay, all my pre Grim Reaper knowledge has been shattered. The P-51, The Mighty Mustang, The Escort that Won The War....DASHED, crushed, and thoroughly shattered today. The 109K-4 has broken me....Thank GR, I didn't know what I didn't know and now I do. Keep it up.
Irl the flight controls of the 109 got very heavy above 160 knots and made it very difficult to manuever at high speeds
So if that was modeled 109 would lose most foghts
Completely different fight in il2 Great battles p51 in dcs isn’t up to “wartime” specs
The Mustang is just such a hot plane. I wish it did better, but that's life!
Wow. The Mustang lost. And that wasn't M-109 dogfighter. It be interesting to see the P-38 lighting go against that M-109 heavy bomber destroy. I do have a request. If you got these aircraft. A dogfight with the 1st jet fighters. Like the American shooting star( 1945 ), British Gloster meteor ( 1944 ) ,the German Me-262( 1944 ). Frances Ouragan ( 1951 ). Basically. The 1st jet fighters in each country. Which were designed in the forty. Please. If you got them. 👍😊
Have you tried IL2 Cliffs of dover? Been playing GB for years and jus now went back to it - and forgot how enjoyable regular COD and Desert Wings was.
What does the wing loading metric mean?
How much weight the wings are carrying. The less the better.
I wish the Reapers would use one of the other flight sims. The P-51D is an earlier fighter than the Me109K.4, which didn't show up until 1945. As to guns, the 30mm cannon the 109 has, can down an aircraft with one hit. Not so, .50BMG. AN Me109G would be a more even match. But it isn't in DCS.
Trees are 90% air…. Guess you caught that 10
Fantastic flying Cap. I think that the Mustang (D) by the time it would encounter German aircraft it would already be at a very high altitude, in numbers. Possibly even back then US pilots would have used wingmen in fights. The Germans, even with an aircraft like the Kurfurst would would be outnumbered and trying to get to the bombers. The Messerschmidt like you briefly touched on could be deadly to an inexperienced pilot flying the dang thing, there were quite a few operational accidents with them.
Surely there was a model of Spit that could match the Kurfurst speed wise? Cool vid as always btw.
Yes like you say there were many such factors:
-German pilots had almost no fuel for training and had to abandon even basic fighter tactics like the schwarme (finger-four) formation because the rookies couldn't be trained in it fast enough.
-The Luftwaffe was under stringent orders to focus on bombers and fighter bombers and ignore enemy fighters. Obv not always possible.
There was a Spitfire that could just about catch the K-4: The Spitfire XIV. The K-4 was still faster, but many survivors of the Luftwaffe in this era list that as their most feared opponent.
@@hanswolfgangmercer I thought there was. From memory, in a book I have here, some of the merlins in the XIV were license built by Packard in the US. They made a fault with some of the bearing materials, hence some of those Spits engines would seize up. Not very convenient for them.
Spitfire MkXIV or later.
@@grmatrix6358 XIV was the last to actually see action in WWII iirc, but yes there were a few postwar marks as well.
@@Pablo668 Huh I didn't know that. Seems like anytime you build a plane around a super engine like that you tend to run into those issues.
I agree visibility is huge in the P-51D
According to pilots that have flown bf109 it's flight controls get very heavy above 160 knots which makes it very hard to manuever at high speeds also water methanol only lasts for about 10 minutes after which it's hp drops to about 1500
I'm gonna say this, and really don't care how many people I piss off. Going one v one in a turning fight against a kurfurst was frowned upon. The energy retention of the pony is its strong point. The moment you start turning, you open angles. In every dogfight, not just against the kurfurst. If you ended up with a kurfurst on your tail, or any other fighter for that matter, it was because you f'd up and forgot your training.
Hey grim, would it be possible to make a video explaining some of the terminology and mechanics of air combat? For example what does it mean to lose a wing? Thanks
P51 needs to make more use of flaps
It's unsurprising that in a close instant fight the BF would win since it has no weight or performance dedicated to extending range. Task a BF to travel 500+ miles and then dogfight all out then get home and it fails miserably. Aside from defending the airfields they took off from they were not much use once Germany was in retreat.
Some awesome flying here!
Did you guys ever try the same matchups, but starting at angels 20 or 25?
Starting at 15k is right about at the cusp of where the Mustang's 2nd stage kicks in and out. Any time I've started a fight in a Mustang between 10 and 15k, I get chewed up. 18k and even higher, the Mustang's advantage increases with altitude.
I'd hypothesize the odds would flip in favor of the Mustang above angels 20, right where the bombers would fly, where the Mustang and Jug have all the power they need and the 109k really starts struggling to gain and retain energy.
Worth a rematch, I think! Start at 25,000 feet and see what happens?
Maybe a ton more weight actually means something?
Hi Cap! Seeing as the Allies utilised high altitude and low altitude variants. Could you do a video of P51 staying high and Spitfire staying low vs 109 etc? 4 v 4 with 2 P51s high and 2 Spitfires low. Are there any specific tactical doctrines from the war for mixed fighter deployments?
Wouldn’t that just end up being 4v2 and 4v2… not a 4v4? Why would the Germans split up rather than just stay high and pick the separate duos apart?
BF-109K v Spitfire MK 14E would be interesting.
That's a P-51D Red Tailed Mustang
I want to see you try this again at the correct altitude for a P-51D.
P-51D eats 30mm (actually several) and keeps flying. Is DCS some kind of free to play early access, where all cannons use the samage damage model of "generic WW2 20mm cannon", or what?
The reality is that it wasn't the planes that were better for the Allies, it was the fuel. Germany didn't get high octane fuel they got dirty dirty low octane fuel. It wasn't the pilots or the planes or the other stuff rambled about, it was 1,000% the quality of fuel.
Well, an experienced corps and increasingly growing pool of experienced pilots also helped things . . .
@Tyvern Overlord well even by their own data what they is shady. The slide comparing the two at the beginning shows the HP of each and the type of engine with the fuel. The 109 has MW-50 as the fuel to reach those HP numbers. MW-50 wasn't a fuel it was a fuel additive meant to be used to compensate for the horrible fuel made from coal. They couldn't get the fuel they needed so they used 87 octane with methanol water mixture or mw-50 to be used like nitrous, in bursts to get 1785 HP, I don't know where they got the 1800+ number but regardless they would only have a few min of the boost of power that 1800+ wasn't sustainable. Using peak power vs sustainable power is kind of iffy. The DB 605 wasn't an 1800 hp motor very long only in bursts, otherwise it was more like a 1500hp motor. I don't recall the "experienced corp" hitting the juice while dog fighting.
@@ClericChris I don't pay attention to Cap & Co. blathering on, and they did get things wrong. I know a lot of this information.
*"It wasn't the pilots or the planes or the other stuff rambled about, it was 1,000% the quality of fuel"* I was more commenting on this statement.
Damn, you had that fight cap. There’s always some oversized tree hitbox to ruin the fun. I bet a replay would show you should have been fine.
I hate the dcs hit box you just spontaneously combust if you get close to a tree
Hello Cap! Now you have a proper Paris map, can you do Operation Squabble please? Take off from England, avoid fighter patrols, machine gun targets in Paris and return? Thanks a bunch and feel better!
109K is overall better performing in most of the dozen or so parameters of a dogfight over a P51
P-38 vs BF109 would be good!
Hello! Where is review of Iskander? His ballistic missiles very" good" intercepted patriot's missiles))
Some great dogfights but even I must admits I didn’t have high hopes going into this battle. The K4 “in DCs” is just far superior. The K4 out rates out climes and is faster as seen in our gr drag races. A fighter has be better at one of these traits to have a chance and the D30 has none of these over the K4. P51 has good high speed turn but that only works for so long.
Would like to talk a little about the version of the P51 we have in DCS the D30. Unlike in modern times where the higher the block number the better for example the F16 50 60 70 etc. this wasn’t the case for the P51.
The P51 had its main version example would be the B/C/D and of course the number after that. The D30 saw a wider combat in the pacific theatre and so didn’t have to compete with high speeds of the German fighters or worry about turn fighting as the best turn fighter of the war was on the enemy side in the A6M zero. The D25 is a little bit lighter due to it holding less equipment compared to the D30 you can see differences in the model between the 25 and the 30 in sim due to the two prong Antenna on the tail.
The D25 did see combat in Europe but would have had access to 150 grade fuel going back to earlier D model the D15 is even lighter the 150 grade fuel pushed the manifold up to 75 inches and bringing the Merlin to around 2000hp which I did go over briefly in mission.
I would like to see the mustang get a once over with it being a very old module. I feel like the K4 is very well made overall with it being one of the “newer” warbirds compared to the D9 and mustang.
Would love to do this in IL2 to see how the K4 compares to the lighter and “more powerful” mustang like they would have had them during war time.
Exactly. Was going to write the same, but Hasina beat me to it. By the time the 109 K-4 arrived in Oct 1944, many of the air-to-air Mustang squadrons were using 150 octane fuel. This equalizes the power difference and removes the 109's best feature vs the D. The 109 K-4 is definitely the better dogfighter in DCS at the moment.
Being one of the relatively newer wargamers to embrace the WW2 aircraft it was easy to see/feel the dominance of the 109k4 in these fights. I've got low hours in the p51 and even lower in the k4 and it just was easier to fly the k4. You could see me dropping my wing so quickly in the 51. It's not as easy to fly as it looks, but all that being said this was some of the most fun I've had in warlords to date. I hope we can continue to get good views so we can make more warlord content.
@@Firedad376 Hasina's really good at holding the Mustang at the ideal lift. Listen for that "whistle" over the gunports. That helps you get maximum turn from the Mustang without necessarily stalling it. I'm sure he could offer many more tips, but I've found the "gunport whistle" a useful guide for max lift. Remember too that while the 109 has significantly better horsepower/weight ratio, the Mustang was the slippierest (lowest drag) airframe of WWII. So it can accelerate well even with lower thrust, since it has lower drag. So you can extend away in a dive easier than you'd think, and I believe the Mustang is still faster than the 109K-4 down low near SL.
@@christopherjohnson529 unfortunately the BF109 in dcs is still faster at sea level. We have done multiple GR ww2 drag races where even with my amazing starts the BF109 and D9 were just faster. But yes you are correct about the gun port whistle some people have the misconception that the whistle is caused by speed but it’s due to AoA on the wing. It’s starts with the sound of the whistles increasing in like pitch/intensity before you get a slight shaking and then a wing stall but pull too hard to quickly and you skip the shaking part.
@@Firedad376 if you ever want to practice ww2 stuff you know where to find me haha
A suggestion: 100 P51s against 100 Me 262.
Go mustang!
Try the P51 with a Griffon engine.
Hey Cap!!
Could you guys do the Mustang vs Hellcat? They were the best 2 fighters of the war for the US
Sadly not, no Hellcat in game yet.
Actual pilots swore by the gyro sights yet you all purposefully don’t use the tech. Caps shooting in the 51 would have been easy if he’d learn to use the sight properly. By the way these fights should have wake turned on.
So I don't own the DCS but I still think my knowledge of these aircraft are sufficient enough to give some advice.
- You should never go vertical with the Bf-109 because it can climb better, has higher power to weight ratio and it simply behaves much better than the P-51 at low speeds. Pretty much the faster you go the better for the P-51. Mustang loves high speeds while 109 should start to compress more than the Mustang. You have more sleek airframe and laminar flow wing. Use it to your advantage and fighting at low speed is doing the exact opposite.
-Use flaps. I don't know how they are modeled in the game but flaps on the Mustang should be able to go down faster than the 109s and they should be able to be just fine even at high speeds.
Now this might be wrong but I think I've seen somewhere that 10 degrees of flaps can be used up to 400 mph.
So the tactic should be assuming you start at the same altitude with the same amount of energy. Get into a downward spiral at high speed, use flaps so you can get a tighter turn and in a few turns there should be a decent chance of turning into the 109. Once speed drops under 300-250 mph just dive and run because at that point you already lost. Starting a dogfight with a 109 if you are at the deck where you can't exchange altitude for speed is already lost too and trying to run away is the best option.
One more tip: P-51s optimal altitude for engine performance with WEP should be around 7000 ft with supercharger on stage 1.
P51 enters downward spiral, 109 pilot just stays high and scratches their head.
All jokes aside, there is so much at play... but mostly it comes down to the pilot in the box.
#6 wheeeee!
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Extremely unrealistic way of deciding which fighter is better...the results could easily be about the who's "flying" the plane and not the plane's capabilities.
When fighting a 109 with a P-51 its all about energy management. Keep your speed up, do not play to the advantage of the leading edge slats. Keep the advantage of the NLF airfoil. The truth about the 109 is it was NOT fast, it struggled to go over 400mph, it could only do that at a specific altitude on a hot day. Its True Airspeed was good in that condition, it did NOT fight at that speed you fly Indicated Airspeed not True. The Mustang cold dive to recover energy better than the 109 could. Think about Hoovs acrobatic routine he he did the same maneuvers with the engines on and off. Do not use flaps and get slow and cause an overshoot, Use a barrel roll to get behind him thus keeping your speed up. If the 109 gets slow don't play his game and extend and reengage on your terms. The truth about the slats on the 109 was they worked poorly and mechanics just wired them closed to prevent problems but if they were working they were not good but better than the NLF in a stall. The NLF airfoils will drop a wing hard so just keep your speed up.
That was one of the few comments I've read in this thread that seem grounded on facts. Check out that old "Dogfights" episode that featured Col. Bud Anderson's recollection of dogfighting a 109 Gustav in 1944. It demonstrates some of what you say here. Yes, it was a 109G, but the pilot was more than capable and I struggle to believe the outcome would have been different with a 109K.
@@LuisSoto-ho5fw Thanks. I'm retired now but I used to teach ACM/BFM at Luke AFB I built the sim center there. Hoove was one of my flight instructors and I Have a Ph.D in this stuff. I'm like Kelly McGillis in Top Gun but much sexier ;-). Most people here tell me I don't know what I'm talking about because "wikipedia says"
@@anthonyb5279 😁 That is simply awesome. Starstruck that you had "Pard Hoover" as one of your instructors. That's like having Joe Montana show you how to quarterback. I remember as a kid building a model kit of his Mustang, the one with the Rockwell paint scheme, all yellow. I did not know why the box depicted the aircraft with one wheel touching the ground, until some time later I saw a video of his routine. And then he did the same with a Shrike Commander, which became iconic. Some people are just flying creatures trapped in human bodies.
@@LuisSoto-ho5fw I learned to Fly Commanders setting up a sim center for Central Air Southwest. They actually owned and maintained Hoovs Commander's and P-51. I have been in the Commander 690A filming the glass of tea barrel roll demonstration.
make the opponent turn using your guns. an old trick to control sphere of combat