This happens in a lot of different industries, I was a paramedic for almost 20 years and there was always medics who would let their EMT’s (lower level of training) do advanced medical procedures that they were not licensed to do, it’s not so much them disregarding peoples lives but they feel they are helping teach and advance their skills, but it’s a bad idea, Im surprised the captain wasn’t on the controls ready to intervene.
I can see that, too. A qualified teacher is a teacher, the apprentice can never be a teacher before proper proof of qualification - you can see that with Obi Wan trying to teach Anakin whereas the Yedi-Council refused to teach him about the force. Results are known in the whole galaxy!
I remember when I took an Avionics class while working with UAL and the instructor had made a video of the flight using the Altimeter and the voices of the Flight Crew. Very disturbing to hear their demise. But it was used to push a point home. Always follow procedures and never deviate.
@@Chicken_Nugget1 The beginning you hear the flight engineer in the copilots seat saying “wow “” in reference to the steep take off” Then the cries PO their voices struggling to keep the aircraft from the eventual crash and their demise.
At least they ensured the Flight Recorder was turned on in order to document their demise. It's those small attentions to detail that separate the good pilots from the great pilots.
Quite a few years ago I heard a story about an airplane crash in southern Nevada. A guy took his girl friend out for a flight in his plane. The investigators couldn't figure out the cause of the crash. But they did find the guys bite off dick in the girl's mouth.
Retired UAL Captain here. What is not mentioned is the fact that the cargo was loaded aft of CG limits. The horizontal stabilizer trim was left where it was at from landing in Detroit on the leg from CLE. Aft of take off limits (missed after landing checklist item) At rotation the aircraft pitched up immediately and the Captain yelled “Get the nose down!” The F/E flying yelled back “I’m trying!” the aircraft stalled and crashed. On the CVR tape the Captain can be heard crying out “Oh God” knowing that they are about to die. I have listened to the entire CVR recording, it isn’t pleasant. United made a required viewing training video, the crash recreated in a DC-8 simulator with the actual CVR recording layered over the video. UAL mandated no F/E’s would fly the airplanes after that
The airplane was within CG limits according to the accident report. The planned CG was 29.8 MAC and the actual was 32.5 but the limit was 34.1 MAC. The planned STAB was 1.9 but the actual CG was 0.2. I don’t think I have ever seen a STAB setting as low as either. The accident happened because the STAB was never reset after the prior landing and was never set for the takeoff. Recovery was only possible if one of the pilots had immediately started nose down trim, plus some reduction of the power on all four engines.
Yea, the captain was a total moron for allowing the seat swap to happen at all at any time during the flight operations, especially at the last minute during the taxi for take off.
You would have thought that the Captain, not knowing the piloting ability of the Flight Engineer, would have been more vigilant about what was going on to his right than seemingly checking out (in this case, forever).
Don't even play music! Gen. Uzal Ent was gravely injured as a result of humming a tune during a takeoff in a B-25. He nodded his head as he did so, and his co-pilot thought Ent had given him a command. He carried it out, and wrecked the plane. Ent took a propeller in the back (props are very close to the fuselage in a B-25) and was paralyzed. Amazingly, he regained partial mobility but died a few years later from complications of his injuries.
What is it with pilots at DTW in the 80s forgetting to follow pretakeoff checklists? Flight engineer called for the trim to be checked but apparently no one checked it. Northwest 255 in 1987- pilots never set flaps/slats for takeoff resulting in the deaths of everyone except a 4 year old girl. DTW is my home airport and you don’t hear this one talked about but you definitely hear about northwest 255 every year. ALWAYS ensure your checklists are being followed. If you get interrupted partway through- run through the whole section again. Better safe than sorry
It all goes back to CRM and the sterile cockpit rule. I suppose it was more of a hypothetical question in the original comment and I was pointing out the similarities in the two accidents that should not have happened at DTW
No one remembers freight disasters. It's a matter of number of innocent souls on board. In cases like this, there are no innocents, they sealed their own faith.
My dad was a flight engineer working for united airlines he was on a plane going to new zealand It was a B747 KLM once he got to new zealand thankfully he didnt want to operate UN 2885
On the video the dialogue between pilots stops after the takeoff roll stops and it makes it seem like all the pilots went silent but it says the engineer was still calling for checklist items and other things must have been said.
NTSB report (found on-line) has whole CVR transcript. Flight engineer (the "pilot" flying) basically says nothing, or maybe few profanities (not everything on CVR could be attributed to actual speaker), captain said a few profanities and "push forward, push forward.". Given unsophistication of FDR in 1983 they couldn't tell if captain tried to over-ride FE's yoke position. The trim was totally wrong (was still set for landing an hour before, never changed) and unless a pilot had moved the yoke nose-down in seconds after take-off --- which the FE didn't know/remember to do == the plane was going to crash per NTSB report. Captain totally screwed up, not just letting FE do take off, but pressuring him; the FO also seemed to be pushing the FE to switch and do the take off, possibly he was tired. Apparently neither qualified pilot knew FE had flunked out of pilot training twice, and FE didn't say anything. Given FE's problems in pilot training (poor judgement, bad scanning abilities, failure to act, etc.), giving him a take off with incorrect trim setting was guarantee he'd crash. Also, the FO was not qualified to be a flight engineer so he was useless on that too.
Allen, you always do a great job on your videos, you will never going to pleased some people, just keep doing your videos the way you have been doing, I love them, your explanation of them are clear and understandable, that's what it count. Congratulations
If you're not qualified or capable of performing a certain task in any sensitive industry, you should not do it. The captain bears final responsibility here for allowing it, but the FE should not have presented himself as willing to conduct the takeoff given his record. So sad that all 3 had to die as a result of this error in judgment. Nice video, Allec...
Well, in this was more prevalent then, than now, but when the Captain, who is basically your boss and can get you fired, tells you to do something, it's hard to not just go along.
I live in Michigan, born and raised. I NEVER KNEW we had any other major disaster other than Northwest 355 and the runway incursion!! Thank you for this upload. Prayers 🙏😸 and the best to you in flight ✈️ school 🎒!! ❤️🙏
“There’s no evidence suggesting the captain knew of the flight engineers deficient flying skills, especially in light of his performance as a flight engineer.” What does one thing have to do with the other? I’m a surgical GI nurse and pretty darn good at my job. That doesn’t mean I’m proficient enough to take over for the lead surgeon and resect somebody’s colon.
I get that swapping seats is allowed but to do so while in take off mode is a recipe for disaster! I had a feeling that during take off the trim setting was going to be the issue. As always. Great video.
I saw a video recently where the captain swapped seats with the F/O. Then they swapped back. I don't recall the outcome, but I think the aircraft crashed. No passengers were on board. I don't understand why this was done. I always thought the controls on the right and left side in the cockpit were mirror images of each other, and the captain just sat in the left seat from tradition.
Well, most of the time, from my understanding, is that most 2nd officers were qualified pilots, just waiting to move up in the company if there were no 1st officer job openings when they hired in. So, most of the time, the 2nd officer would be competent to fly the airplane. That being said, you'd think the captain would of been ready to take over. But that's what being awake for 19 hours will do to a person.
I have asked if I could try flying the plane several times. The flight attendants always give me a dirty look and escort me to my seat though. One of these days.........
Yeah, this, seat swapping during taxiing, struck me as haphazard, this isn't a car, it's a plane, a complex machine requiring exact procedures, hardly trivial. I'm amazed at the cavalier attitudes some of these highly experienced pilots exhibit, in these accidents.
Tragic ! You just don't get a "Do Over" in a situation like this. Clearly the main pilots were overworked, tired and had NO idea they were handing off control to a highly unqualified "pilot". RIP to these 3 Souls in Jesus name !
One thing to add: I used to think most all pilots for a given airline knew each other. Not so. Most large carriers have hundreds to thousands and frequently they fly with each other w/o having met prior.
Jesus name? What if they were Jewish? "Virtue Signaling by posting RIP all over the internet while doing actually nothing to better the world. Social media narcissism at its finest." th-cam.com/video/PTmCxbcRXs4/w-d-xo.html
@@Capecodham Jesus was / is the Ultimate Jewish Prophet & Messiah. "There is Salvation ONLY in Jesus Christ...no other name under Heaven, given amongst men, whereby we must be saved" declares Gods infallible WORD. He fulfilled ALL that the Prophets declared. So yes Jesus is for Jews + Gentiles both. Why such snark for Jesus from you ? Sounds like Burt has an impasse with God. He died to make you & I HOLY - set apart for His purposes. Being that Jesus had ALL VIRTUE - "In Him, Christ, dwelt all the Fullness of the Godhead (Trinity) bodily" then yes to hold up the NAME of JESUS is the ULTIMATE Virtue Signaling.... When we Repent of our sins & God will Graciously pardon us....what are you waiting for Burt....Isaiah 55 & John 3:16-17
@@Capecodham PS: How do YOU know what any person is / is NOT doing to better the world ? What amazing assumtiveness you display. Narccistic arrogance ? Available in your nearest mirror. As the Word of God declares....NOW is the time to REPENT...you have the Blessing of time unlike many in these disasters....
@@psalm2forliberty577 The Jesus story is a fraud. You Jesus people would send people of other religions to hell. The most hateful people I know are devout Jesus freaks. The book you quoted was written as a fictional story. Amazon sells it under fiction.
I knew a guy who was a door gunner on a Huey during the Vietnam war. He said the pilot would let him fly sometimes. He also said that when he fired the machine gun he would turn the machine gun just right so that the hot spent brass would land on the pilot.
Wow, that seat swapping seems almost incomprehensible especially during taxi for takeoff. That an unqualified flight engineer suddenly becomes the pilot conducting the take off is simply unreal, regardless of his many hours on the flight deck. Yet another easily avoidable tragedy had strict cockpit discipline been maintained by the captain and aircraft commander.
Video: "the plane was a DC-8." McDonald-Douglas haters: "here we go!" Video: Plane takes off into a steep climb. Me: cargo placement error, here we go! Allec: nope.
Flight Engineer Lee shouldn't have agreed to the swap,bless his heart. The captain should have closely monitored him during take off. Also,Captains need to know the history of their cockpit crew.
i think the swapping thing is dumb. But if you absolutely MUST, I think that if you don't have a certain amount of training on the ground for either station, then you shouldn't be allowed to do the in-flight on-the-job stuff, even if you pass a test. I almost think someone should need to pass the same test a handful of times, to make sure they've got everything down-pat. since people's lives are at stake. Maybe I don't know what i'm talking about; who knows? lol Either way, in this case, if the FE didn't really want to fly and didn't feel comfy doing it, he should have had the boldness to speak up and say so even if it pissed off the captain, and held firm on his position despite whatever was said. You don't fly a huge metal can going hundreds of miles an hour in the air unless you have a LOT of training and are firm in your abilities....and CERTIFIED. Let people get pissed at you; better than dying.
I've heard takeoffs and landings are the most dangerous part of Flying. Perfect call on the crews responsibility for the death of all those poor victims.
I never realised that the CVR and Data recorders could be switched on or off? I always guessed they were hard wired in and tamperproof from the crew for obvious reasons.?You live and learn.
@@miragesmack007 That was news to me aswell.I do know however in Ww2 a flight engineer on a bomber either RAF or USAF was qualified to fly in an emergency.
Boy if passengers knew everything that went on up front I wonder how many would stop flying ?! I myself do not like to fly for my fear of heights, but have flown from SF, Ca to Newark, NJ after dropping off a new tractor and trailer to Oakland, California in 1981, I actually fell asleep on the flight for most of the trip back to NJ !
As stated below by others the Captain and F.O. were very tired and obviously weren't thinking about whether the F.E. was even qualified to fly. Maybe pilots flying for long durations was a thing but it seems like playing with fire to me. Condolences to their families.
I have seen other professions where an unqualified person is given more than they can handle. On "Oak Island" Jack Begley actually does something other than handle a shovel. if the American Shovel Handlers Association heard of this Jack would have been relieved of his boots, shovel and gloves then demoted to floor sweeper 2nd class.
It's different now with FADEC engines. On the old DC8, DC9, B727, etc you'd push em up a bit and let them stabilize. Once there you'd shove em up to the proper setting for that particular take off. Thrust should be set by 60 knots. Today's sloppy airmen just shove em up and plan on the electronics to work perfectly. Todays decent airmen still use the old technique. Few things in flying piss me off as much as guys just shoving the throttles up in one quick motion. Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy.
This is the reason why the FE is an FE and not a Cap or FO. What were they thinking? ...especially the captain for allowing this to happen. It is very disturbing to hear that this seat swapping was very common in those days.
All three people in the cockpit were pilots. It sounds like the FE had previously attempted to upgrade to F/O and did not make it. Promotion is governed by seniority. Some people never made it to F/O, and some F/Os never made it to Captain.Different airlines had different rules. Some allowed the pilot to return to his/her previous position and others would terminate the pilot.
It’s not musical chairs, but on long range flights, extra crew are carried and the crew swap to rest and ensure no one is fatigued fir the approach at the other end.
Interesting. This was a weird one. I never knew this practice went on. So back in the days of flight engineers, did they actually get any flight training (as being ATC of an aircraft)?
If I would've been the flight engineer, I would've called the Capt on his judgement and told him you are going against procedure. I'm a flight engineer, not a pilot.
Well, from my understanding, most flight engineers are pilots, so I could see why the captain would think that he was ok to fly the plane. Asto the fe, it's hard to go against your boss knowing that if you get fired your airline career could be over, given his notbgood flying skills and how airline companies operated in the 80s.
They didn’t pull any thing. With the trim set all the way back the airplane would just auto rotate. The only possible recovery is immediate nose down trim and reduce the power to counter the pitch up from the engines. There is a high probability that if they had not changed seats the accident still would have happened. There was an error on the weight and balance. They were more tail heavy than planned with a planned 1.9 ANU Stab settling when the actual corrected for the error was 0.2 ANU Stab. All three should have looked at the Stab setting when responding to the trim on the checklist.
Amazing and sad that they have trimmed the Stab so much nose-up, and didn't react immediately. Maybe they had an aft CG as well. Being tired is worse than being drunk. And this is why the B737 MAX needed the MCAS system, and needed it to remain active too. The stall margin needs to be as big and safe as possible. It is still a surprise to have seen so many educated people get this wrong and follow the Boeing party line to the letter. "Not for stall protection...". The JATR report has quieted them down though...check it out if you want to know the whole story. Also Bjorn Fehrm and Peter Lemme...experts like few others really.
Per the accident report a pallet of metal pellets was supposed to be loaded in position 3 (forward) and was not, resulting in aft CG beyond what was calculated. It was still within limits but near the allowable aft limit.
What Captain or Who does not closely supervise every takeoff. Even afterwards, if its going out of control, Should have taken over and save it. That is the problem- pilots becoming passengers in their duty station. One good example of an outstanding job by the FO, pilot monitoring duty, is a takeoff in NY by a 777 freighter who called "stall, stall, stall." and let ATC know of their situation to fly straight to recover. This Captain is just going along for the ride when on monitor duty. My guess but maybe more to the story.
The trim had not been reset from the previous leg. Most DC8 operator I flew the DC8 at reset the trim to 3deg ANU. Most carriers did this because it would be safe if it was forgotten to set T/O trim. If you set it to 0 and forgot the airplane would not rotate at all. The DC8 elevator has no hydraulic boost, just cables from the cockpit to the tail and when you pull back to rotate you are not moving the elevator. You are moving a flying tab on the elevator that forces the elevator to move in the desired direction. The engines on the DC8 are mounted under the wing. When landing a certain amount of power is required to hold the approach speed on the glide slope and the required elevator trim is fairly constant. As you start the flare and pull the power off the airplane becomes way out of trim nose heavy. Nose up trim during the flare could counteract this sudden nose heavy force. The end result would be the trim would be very nose up and if not reset you would get what this United DC8 had, very nose up trim with T/O Power which simply pushing would do little. Hydraulic forward trim would be the only thing that might have saved them. That would have been done with the left thumb of the Captain or the Right thumb of the man in the right seat.
I'm glad they didn't have any passengers. Cus If I were to board a plane and found out the engineer swapped with the captain or F/O, I'm getting the hell off. Like WTF stick to YOUR job?
This happens in a lot of different industries, I was a paramedic for almost 20 years and there was always medics who would let their EMT’s (lower level of training) do advanced medical procedures that they were not licensed to do, it’s not so much them disregarding peoples lives but they feel they are helping teach and advance their skills, but it’s a bad idea, Im surprised the captain wasn’t on the controls ready to intervene.
I can see that, too. A qualified teacher is a teacher, the apprentice can never be a teacher before proper proof of qualification - you can see that with Obi Wan trying to teach Anakin whereas the Yedi-Council refused to teach him about the force. Results are known in the whole galaxy!
@@m.d.5463 That is the coolest and nerdiest analogy I've ever read 😆
Paramedics are EMTs in some cases but not all. EMTs are paramedics
No. It's not the same.
@@bullseyes1983 thanks! And english is not even my native tongue.
I remember when I took an Avionics class while working with UAL and the instructor had made a video of the flight using the Altimeter and the voices of the Flight Crew. Very disturbing to hear their demise. But it was used to push a point home. Always follow procedures and never deviate.
What was said? As it wasn't really included in this beyond takeoff.
@@Chicken_Nugget1 The beginning you hear the flight engineer in the copilots seat saying “wow “” in reference to the steep take off” Then the cries PO their voices struggling to keep the aircraft from the eventual crash and their demise.
Had they survived, they were as good as gone from the airline.
At least they ensured the Flight Recorder was turned on in order to document their demise. It's those small attentions to detail that separate the good pilots from the great pilots.
Trim: check
Flaps: check
Cockpit voice recorder : check
PARTY TIME 🥳
@@MorganBrown As awful as it is for me to say this, you made me spit my dr.pepper out from laughing so hard.
@@MorganBrown Gotta give something for those grieving widows. The dating habits of our flight attendants. ENGINE FAILURE WE GOT AN ENGINE FAILURE
Quite a few years ago I heard a story about an airplane crash in southern Nevada. A guy took his girl friend out for a flight in his plane. The investigators couldn't figure out the cause of the crash. But they did find the guys bite off dick in the girl's mouth.
@@sd906238 Ouch!
Retired UAL Captain here. What is not mentioned is the fact that the cargo was loaded aft of CG limits. The horizontal stabilizer trim was left where it was at from landing in Detroit on the leg from CLE. Aft of take off limits (missed after landing checklist item) At rotation the aircraft pitched up immediately and the Captain yelled “Get the nose down!” The F/E flying yelled back “I’m trying!” the aircraft stalled and crashed. On the CVR tape the Captain can be heard crying out “Oh God” knowing that they are about to die. I have listened to the entire CVR recording, it isn’t pleasant. United made a required viewing training video, the crash recreated in a DC-8 simulator with the actual CVR recording layered over the video. UAL mandated no F/E’s would fly the airplanes after that
With the CG problem sounds like they would have crashed no matter who was flying.
The airplane was within CG limits according to the accident report. The planned CG was 29.8 MAC and the actual was 32.5 but the limit was 34.1 MAC. The planned STAB was 1.9 but the actual CG was 0.2. I don’t think I have ever seen a STAB setting as low as either. The accident happened because the STAB was never reset after the prior landing and was never set for the takeoff. Recovery was only possible if one of the pilots had immediately started nose down trim, plus some reduction of the power on all four engines.
Even if swapping is occasionally OK (which it probably isn't), you DON'T spring it on the crew unexpectedly during a takeoff roll & checklists!
It violated both United and FAA rules.
Yea, the captain was a total moron for allowing the seat swap to happen at all at any time during the flight operations, especially at the last minute during the taxi for take off.
Exactly this👏🏼
Americans are cowboys
You would have thought that the Captain, not knowing the piloting ability of the Flight Engineer, would have been more vigilant about what was going on to his right than seemingly checking out (in this case, forever).
As mentioned in the video, the Captain had been active for 19 hours. “Dead tired” it’s sometimes called.😕
Yeah, being awake for 19 hours straight probably clouded his judgment.
Man i wasnt aware that this kind of existed.. it makes these 3 deaths seem so pointless!
How does this have 31 likes and it's not a complete sentence? This kind of what?
Pro-Tip: Don't play musical chairs on the taxiway
This was a DIY flight. You any relation to D.B.?
Don't even play music!
Gen. Uzal Ent was gravely injured as a result of humming a tune during a takeoff in a B-25. He nodded his head as he did so, and his co-pilot thought Ent had given him a command. He carried it out, and wrecked the plane.
Ent took a propeller in the back (props are very close to the fuselage in a B-25) and was paralyzed. Amazingly, he regained partial mobility but died a few years later from complications of his injuries.
Cameras are everywhere nowadays...
Such a great channel. i look forward to every upload. Thank you!
What is it with pilots at DTW in the 80s forgetting to follow pretakeoff checklists? Flight engineer called for the trim to be checked but apparently no one checked it. Northwest 255 in 1987- pilots never set flaps/slats for takeoff resulting in the deaths of everyone except a 4 year old girl. DTW is my home airport and you don’t hear this one talked about but you definitely hear about northwest 255 every year.
ALWAYS ensure your checklists are being followed. If you get interrupted partway through- run through the whole section again. Better safe than sorry
They seem to be quite distracted for some reason
It all goes back to CRM and the sterile cockpit rule. I suppose it was more of a hypothetical question in the original comment and I was pointing out the similarities in the two accidents that should not have happened at DTW
No one remembers freight disasters. It's a matter of number of innocent souls on board. In cases like this, there are no innocents, they sealed their own faith.
@@bullseyes1983 *fate
DTW?
My dad was a flight engineer working for united airlines he was on a plane going to new zealand It was a B747 KLM once he got to new zealand thankfully he didnt want to operate UN 2885
Always get recommended these videos 1 day before I have to board a flight !
On the video the dialogue between pilots stops after the takeoff roll stops and it makes it seem like all the pilots went silent but it says the engineer was still calling for checklist items and other things must have been said.
NTSB report (found on-line) has whole CVR transcript. Flight engineer (the "pilot" flying) basically says nothing, or maybe few profanities (not everything on CVR could be attributed to actual speaker), captain said a few profanities and "push forward, push forward.". Given unsophistication of FDR in 1983 they couldn't tell if captain tried to over-ride FE's yoke position. The trim was totally wrong (was still set for landing an hour before, never changed) and unless a pilot had moved the yoke nose-down in seconds after take-off --- which the FE didn't know/remember to do == the plane was going to crash per NTSB report. Captain totally screwed up, not just letting FE do take off, but pressuring him; the FO also seemed to be pushing the FE to switch and do the take off, possibly he was tired. Apparently neither qualified pilot knew FE had flunked out of pilot training twice, and FE didn't say anything. Given FE's problems in pilot training (poor judgement, bad scanning abilities, failure to act, etc.), giving him a take off with incorrect trim setting was guarantee he'd crash. Also, the FO was not qualified to be a flight engineer so he was useless on that too.
Allen, you always do a great job on your videos, you will never going to pleased some people, just keep doing your videos the way you have been doing, I love them, your explanation of them are clear and understandable, that's what it count. Congratulations
Are you a pilot or a flight engineer?
I'm a flight engineer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Does Holiday Inn even still use that advertising gimmick? I don't think I have seen that commercial in 20 years.
that;s funny!
I’ve got it on very reliable information that this sort of seat swapping was very common, even routine in the 60’s and 70’s…
My father was a UAL DC-8 pilot in the '50s and '60s and I can't see him condoning seat swapping, sadly he's no longer around to ask about it.
Yup it was basically standard practice back in the day; however, the FE was usually a qualified pilot, but just too junior to hold the right seat.
It was definitely common practice…
If you're not qualified or capable of performing a certain task in any sensitive industry, you should not do it. The captain bears final responsibility here for allowing it, but the FE should not have presented himself as willing to conduct the takeoff given his record. So sad that all 3 had to die as a result of this error in judgment. Nice video, Allec...
Well, in this was more prevalent then, than now, but when the Captain, who is basically your boss and can get you fired, tells you to do something, it's hard to not just go along.
The crew played with peoples lives...this is scary to even imagine 🤦♀️ Have a safe weekend Allec👍Always respect !
This was a cargo flight. The cargo was destroyed, but in terms of human lives, they only subtracted themselves. Potential Darwin Award?
Never heard of a Flight Engineer fly as a first officer unless he qualifies. Not in my current airline . Ofcourse now there is no need of a FE .
I think it was a cargo flight only thing.^^
FE?
FE (Flight Engineer)
@@aroopghosh1381 Then why didn't you say that? What did you do with the time you saved not typing light ngineer
@@Capecodham what’s a light ngineer?
I live in Michigan, born and raised. I NEVER KNEW we had any other major disaster other than Northwest 355 and the runway incursion!! Thank you for this upload. Prayers 🙏😸 and the best to you in flight ✈️ school 🎒!! ❤️🙏
Heart Surgeon: " Here nurse Betty, take over for me"
Nurse: " Are you sure,now"?
Heart Surgeon: " Sure, it'll be fun"...
Nurse: "Is all that blood gushing out normal?"
Heart Surgeon: "Clamp, stat!!"
At least this was a cargo plane, meaning there were no passengers that they killed with their stupidity, only themselves.
They could have killed people on the ground.
But that's why my Sony Walkman never arrived...
Overworked pilots were eager to accept any help. RIP
Ayo nice to see he uploaded
At least there weren’t any passengers on board.
@Allec: not very much of flying this time, but still a good video, especially the research.
Amazing how much excitement can be packed into even a brief flight.
“There’s no evidence suggesting the captain knew of the flight engineers deficient flying skills, especially in light of his performance as a flight engineer.”
What does one thing have to do with the other? I’m a surgical GI nurse and pretty darn good at my job. That doesn’t mean I’m proficient enough to take over for the lead surgeon and resect somebody’s colon.
CAP: HEY YOU, FLY THIS PLANE!
FE: No thanks, I'm good.
CAP: NO, SIT HERE AND FLY THIS PLANE IT'LL BE GREAT!
FE: (sigh) O.k. ✈🔥
"You can doooo it......"
@@dangarrison3503 Paging Eldar! Here, handle the controls.
Three Stooges for sure!
Never heard of this incident thank you!
I get that swapping seats is allowed but to do so while in take off mode is a recipe for disaster! I had a feeling that during take off the trim setting was going to be the issue. As always. Great video.
It wasn’t allowed in this case since the SO wasn’t a qualified pilot.
As always another good video...
I am no pilot, but why would any Captain make a last minute switch like this?
All the times that he was able to get away with doing this swapping nonsense. I hope it's not even attempted today.
Flight engineers almost do not exist anymore, unless a cargo company using very old planes. Even a 747 F only needs a crew of 2.
I saw a video recently where the captain swapped seats with the F/O. Then they swapped back. I don't recall the outcome, but I think the aircraft crashed. No passengers were on board. I don't understand why this was done. I always thought the controls on the right and left side in the cockpit were mirror images of each other, and the captain just sat in the left seat from tradition.
Well, most of the time, from my understanding, is that most 2nd officers were qualified pilots, just waiting to move up in the company if there were no 1st officer job openings when they hired in. So, most of the time, the 2nd officer would be competent to fly the airplane. That being said, you'd think the captain would of been ready to take over. But that's what being awake for 19 hours will do to a person.
I have asked if I could try flying the plane several times. The flight attendants always give me a dirty look and escort me to my seat though. One of these days.........
At least they pulled this dumb shit without any passengers...
Why on earth would you allow or suggest a switch right before take off? Crazy. This is all on the captain.
Thanks Mr Ibay.
Again, I enjoy the 70’s British Rock style wailing guitars.
I saw a few BRock bands in the 70’s
Anyway, good review and video.
Robert Lee, 8.800 hours of flying time, 15.000 hours of Confederate Army Leadership.
Great video as always. Are you able to do the Yorba Linda crash of February 2019 ?
Yeah, this, seat swapping during taxiing, struck me as haphazard, this isn't a car, it's a plane, a complex machine requiring exact procedures, hardly trivial. I'm amazed at the cavalier attitudes some of these highly experienced pilots exhibit, in these accidents.
I like your videos!
Being friendly and good natured are weaknesses unless you know how to exercise those qualities appropriately.
Tragic !
You just don't get a "Do Over" in a situation like this.
Clearly the main pilots were overworked, tired and had NO idea they were handing off control to a highly unqualified "pilot".
RIP to these 3 Souls in Jesus name !
One thing to add: I used to think most all pilots for a given airline knew each other.
Not so. Most large carriers have hundreds to thousands and frequently they fly with each other w/o having met prior.
Jesus name? What if they were Jewish?
"Virtue Signaling by posting RIP all over the internet while doing actually nothing to better the world.
Social media narcissism at its finest."
th-cam.com/video/PTmCxbcRXs4/w-d-xo.html
@@Capecodham
Jesus was / is the Ultimate Jewish Prophet & Messiah.
"There is Salvation ONLY in Jesus Christ...no other name under Heaven, given amongst men, whereby we must be saved" declares Gods infallible WORD.
He fulfilled ALL that the Prophets declared.
So yes Jesus is for Jews + Gentiles both.
Why such snark for Jesus from you ?
Sounds like Burt has an impasse with God.
He died to make you & I HOLY - set apart for His purposes.
Being that Jesus had ALL VIRTUE - "In Him, Christ, dwelt all the Fullness of the Godhead (Trinity) bodily" then yes to hold up the NAME of JESUS is the ULTIMATE Virtue Signaling....
When we Repent of our sins & God will Graciously pardon us....what are you waiting for Burt....Isaiah 55 & John 3:16-17
@@Capecodham
PS: How do YOU know what any person is / is NOT doing to better the world ?
What amazing assumtiveness you display.
Narccistic arrogance ? Available in your nearest mirror.
As the Word of God declares....NOW is the time to REPENT...you have the Blessing of time unlike many in these disasters....
@@psalm2forliberty577 The Jesus story is a fraud. You Jesus people would send people of other religions to hell. The most hateful people I know are devout Jesus freaks. The book you quoted was written as a fictional story. Amazon sells it under fiction.
Hey alec,just a suggestion. Can you do eastern airline flight 212? If your busy in sorry. But if it takes a couple of days ill be wating. Thanks!
This needed The Price Is Right losing horns.
That’s not how we play it here holmes. Families were ripped to shreds. It will always be too soon, even if the comment is funny as hell.
With the crash...it should have been the buzzer and the loser horns! This is easily a Darwin Award candidate.
Never heard if this one
I knew a guy who was a door gunner on a Huey during the Vietnam war. He said the pilot would let him fly sometimes. He also said that when he fired the machine gun he would turn the machine gun just right so that the hot spent brass would land on the pilot.
The pilot probably let the him fly while he manned the M-60 and sent some hot brass his way!
My cockpit would be a fairly straightforward, fairly strict place. Nothing wrong with accumulating flight time, but...
Wow, that seat swapping seems almost incomprehensible especially during taxi for takeoff. That an unqualified flight engineer suddenly becomes the pilot conducting the take off is simply unreal, regardless of his many hours on the flight deck. Yet another easily avoidable tragedy had strict cockpit discipline been maintained by the captain and aircraft commander.
19 and 14 straight work hours. The crew was exhausted.
"I'm too good for a Cessna. I wanna learn to -fly- die on a DC-8."
Please change the NOISE that is part of the opening animation.
There seems to be a lackadaisical attitude during these cargo flights.
It was a ferry trip. "dead-head"
When being nice isn’t nice.
What kind of flight was this that only the pilots were on Board? Great video Allec!
Cargo
@@kirilmihaylov1934 Thanks!
The clue is in the aircraft type designator: the "F" in "DC-8-54F" stands for "freight".
@@GCarty80 Thanks!!
Was this a cargo flight
What’s the flight sim
How long does it take to make a video ?
Video: "the plane was a DC-8."
McDonald-Douglas haters: "here we go!"
Video: Plane takes off into a steep climb.
Me: cargo placement error, here we go!
Allec: nope.
Do you have the newest MS Flight Simulator? Would be MUCH better quality graphics.
now THAT was a tail strike!
that's what I was waiting for!
Flight Engineer Lee shouldn't have agreed to the swap,bless his heart. The captain should have closely monitored him during take off. Also,Captains need to know the history of their cockpit crew.
Very lucky that it was just a cargo flight.
Unknown, but terrible pilot error accident :(.
i think the swapping thing is dumb. But if you absolutely MUST, I think that if you don't have a certain amount of training on the ground for either station, then you shouldn't be allowed to do the in-flight on-the-job stuff, even if you pass a test. I almost think someone should need to pass the same test a handful of times, to make sure they've got everything down-pat. since people's lives are at stake. Maybe I don't know what i'm talking about; who knows? lol Either way, in this case, if the FE didn't really want to fly and didn't feel comfy doing it, he should have had the boldness to speak up and say so even if it pissed off the captain, and held firm on his position despite whatever was said. You don't fly a huge metal can going hundreds of miles an hour in the air unless you have a LOT of training and are firm in your abilities....and CERTIFIED. Let people get pissed at you; better than dying.
I've heard takeoffs and landings are the most dangerous part of Flying. Perfect call on the crews responsibility for the death of all those poor victims.
Only the crew died I think.
Which game is this?
MCAS would have been helpful here.
I really don't feel comfortable driving this jumbo jet. Welp gotta try anyway!
c'mon...what r, ya a chicken? What can happen?
@@MegaSunspark here goes nothin!
@@MegaSunspark don't put pressure on me, I don't do well under pressure
What's this? It is called a trim wheel!!!
I never realised that the CVR and Data recorders could be switched on or off? I always guessed they were hard wired in and tamperproof from the crew for obvious reasons.?You live and learn.
They should be tamper proof. No reason why they shouldn't be
This was 1983. Hell, I never realized they let unqualified non pilots take off in jet airliners.
@@miragesmack007 That was news to me aswell.I do know however in Ww2 a flight engineer on a bomber either RAF or USAF was qualified to fly in an emergency.
CVR?
@@Capecodham cockpit voice recorder
Ok why is a jet with no passengers flying DTW>LAX?
Cargo Flight
🎼🎶Night freight, night freight, always running late and going to places you hate, night freight!!🎵
Boy if passengers knew everything that went on up front I wonder how many would stop flying ?!
I myself do not like to fly for my fear of heights, but have flown from SF, Ca to Newark, NJ after dropping off a new tractor and trailer to Oakland, California in 1981, I actually fell asleep on the flight for most of the trip back to NJ !
2 pilots that did not want to be in the copilots seat?!?
As stated below by others the Captain and F.O. were very tired and obviously weren't thinking about whether the F.E. was even qualified to fly. Maybe pilots flying for long durations was a thing but it seems like playing with fire to me. Condolences to their families.
TAM flight 402 I'm waiting for it!
I have seen other professions where an unqualified person is given more than they can handle. On "Oak Island" Jack Begley actually does something other than handle a shovel. if the American Shovel Handlers Association heard of this Jack would have been relieved of his boots, shovel and gloves then demoted to floor sweeper 2nd class.
Switching seats like they are taking turns driving a Greyhound bus. Not good..
As soon as i heard, hey let's switch seats, I knew this was NOT going to end well.
Do you really go from idle to full power in one movement or is it gradual? In the animation it appears like they hit the gas in one fell swoop,
From watching in flight videos, seems to me its one motion, but done very slowly.
In flight sim, yeah, but in real life it ruins the longevity of the engines, especially with piston engines if you jam the throttle up like that.
It's different now with FADEC engines. On the old DC8, DC9, B727, etc you'd push em up a bit and let them stabilize. Once there you'd shove em up to the proper setting for that particular take off. Thrust should be set by 60 knots. Today's sloppy airmen just shove em up and plan on the electronics to work perfectly. Todays decent airmen still use the old technique. Few things in flying piss me off as much as guys just shoving the throttles up in one quick motion. Sloppy, sloppy, sloppy.
Damn shame. Someone forced out of their comfort zone or forced beyond their limits due to peer pressure. Looks avoidable to me.
This is the reason why the FE is an FE and not a Cap or FO. What were they thinking? ...especially the captain for allowing this to happen. It is very disturbing to hear that this seat swapping was very common in those days.
All three people in the cockpit were pilots. It sounds like the FE had previously attempted to upgrade to F/O and did not make it. Promotion is governed by seniority. Some people never made it to F/O, and some F/Os never made it to Captain.Different airlines had different rules. Some allowed the pilot to return to his/her previous position and others would terminate the pilot.
Nobody wins. Everybody dies and for no good reason in this one. Sad
1:00 Robert B Lee? Someone's parents were still pissed off about the Civil War.
Good thing no pax were onboard.
Never crictise people of things you also do in private , these type of things happen daily
whilst the captain seemed nice at letting a junior member of crew swap seats, this is one reason why they should stick to their own jobs I feel
Oh, I don't know. What is the worst that could happen?
Is it true that sometimes on long flights the flight crew plays musical chairs?
It’s not musical chairs, but on long range flights, extra crew are carried and the crew swap to rest and ensure no one is fatigued fir the approach at the other end.
Interesting. This was a weird one. I never knew this practice went on. So back in the days of flight engineers, did they actually get any flight training (as being ATC of an aircraft)?
From what I understand, yes, most, if not all were qualified pilots, normally with not a lot of experience.
If I would've been the flight engineer, I would've called the Capt on his judgement and told him you are going against procedure. I'm a flight engineer, not a pilot.
Well, from my understanding, most flight engineers are pilots, so I could see why the captain would think that he was ok to fly the plane. Asto the fe, it's hard to go against your boss knowing that if you get fired your airline career could be over, given his notbgood flying skills and how airline companies operated in the 80s.
Air Philippines flight 541 next please.
The flight recorder is automatically turned on and requires no effort from the flight crew.
On some older types it was required to be switched on.
It looks like they pulled the planes nose up too hi after take off
They didn’t pull any thing. With the trim set all the way back the airplane would just auto rotate. The only possible recovery is immediate nose down trim and reduce the power to counter the pitch up from the engines. There is a high probability that if they had not changed seats the accident still would have happened. There was an error on the weight and balance. They were more tail heavy than planned with a planned 1.9 ANU Stab settling when the actual corrected for the error was 0.2 ANU Stab. All three should have looked at the Stab setting when responding to the trim on the checklist.
Amazing and sad that they have trimmed the Stab so much nose-up, and didn't react immediately. Maybe they had an aft CG as well. Being tired is worse than being drunk. And this is why the B737 MAX needed the MCAS system, and needed it to remain active too. The stall margin needs to be as big and safe as possible. It is still a surprise to have seen so many educated people get this wrong and follow the Boeing party line to the letter. "Not for stall protection...". The JATR report has quieted them down though...check it out if you want to know the whole story. Also Bjorn Fehrm and Peter Lemme...experts like few others really.
Per the accident report a pallet of metal pellets was supposed to be loaded in position 3 (forward) and was not, resulting in aft CG beyond what was calculated. It was still within limits but near the allowable aft limit.
Go for it eh? Man it really gone right to their deaths. Smh
Let's go play cards while monkey handles the takeoff
What Captain or Who does not closely supervise every takeoff. Even afterwards, if its going out of control, Should have taken over and save it. That is the problem- pilots becoming passengers in their duty station. One good example of an outstanding job by the FO, pilot monitoring duty, is a takeoff in NY by a 777 freighter who called "stall, stall, stall." and let ATC know of their situation to fly straight to recover. This Captain is just going along for the ride when on monitor duty. My guess but maybe more to the story.
I think the fact that the captain had been up for 19 straight hours and the 1st officer had been up for 14, played a huge role in this crash.
The trim had not been reset from the previous leg. Most DC8 operator I flew the DC8 at reset the trim to 3deg ANU. Most carriers did this because it would be safe if it was forgotten to set T/O trim. If you set it to 0 and forgot the airplane would not rotate at all. The DC8 elevator has no hydraulic boost, just cables from the cockpit to the tail and when you pull back to rotate you are not moving the elevator. You are moving a flying tab on the elevator that forces the elevator to move in the desired direction. The engines on the DC8 are mounted under the wing. When landing a certain amount of power is required to hold the approach speed on the glide slope and the required elevator trim is fairly constant. As you start the flare and pull the power off the airplane becomes way out of trim nose heavy. Nose up trim during the flare could counteract this sudden nose heavy force. The end result would be the trim would be very nose up and if not reset you would get what this United DC8 had, very nose up trim with T/O Power which simply pushing would do little. Hydraulic forward trim would be the only thing that might have saved them. That would have been done with the left thumb of the Captain or the Right thumb of the man in the right seat.
I'm glad they didn't have any passengers. Cus If I were to board a plane and found out the engineer swapped with the captain or F/O, I'm getting the hell off. Like WTF stick to YOUR job?
Larry: "drive this truck", Moe: "how, I'm tired", Joe: "let's switch seats I'm the most experienced"
I'm sorry but I had to dislike this, you didn't use Shemp or Curly... Joe was the worst Stooge.
@@Scorpious187 your right I forgot their names 😉
@@melcocha61 All is forgiven... it's not like the Three Stooges were popular 80 years ago or something... Lol.
Juggling knives can do damage