Breaking Down Cloud's Breakdown in FF7 Rebirth with Bio-Roxas | ProfNoctis Show Ep. 12

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 ธ.ค. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 76

  • @schrodingersbabyseal
    @schrodingersbabyseal 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +22

    Here to say that I love all of you

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      The feeling is mutual pal

  • @BioRoxas
    @BioRoxas 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +8

    Ahh thank you so much for having me on!! I had such a blast talking with y'all :>
    Sorry I yapped so much!! The nerves are showin

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      We could’ve listened to you for hours more. Incredibly conversation

  • @major_trenton
    @major_trenton 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +10

    This is such an interesting episode. When Bio mentioned how difficult it was for him to break down who Cloud is, it made me realize how hard that is to do. I don't think many people can actually say what kind of character the "true" Cloud is because fans have barely gotten to experience who Cloud actually is, and that's one of my most anticipated parts of the next game: getting to spend more time with the true Cloud. It's not until the last half of the final act of FFVII that we see who Cloud truly is, and it is not a long time you get to spend with him. Then we get Advent Children, showing a very depressed and different Cloud until the last 10-15 minutes. Then we get one scene with Cloud in Dirge, who acts how he did throughout most of the movie.
    People got to spend all this time with the party members like Aerith or Tifa and learn who they are in the OG, and their portrayals in Remake and Rebirth were still surprising. Because of this, I think people are going to be surprised how a modern, "true" Cloud is going to act because unlike the other party members, fans don't have much to go on. Sure you can say he's corny, or that he is completely selfless. But who is he really and how will he act in a modern game like Remake Part 3? I am not really sure, but I am super excited for it.

    • @UltimaLuminaire
      @UltimaLuminaire 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

      Ah, Nojima explained the creative process going into AC at that time. He had started writing the compilation elements under the lens of what fans thought these characters were instead of what he originally wrote them as. He doesn't regret this, but instead is using this realization to further his depiction of the characters. I think you being excited for the future, given what he's done with the interactions in Remake and Rebirth, is absolutely justified.

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

      This is a great observation. I hope we do get to spend a great deal of time with the real cloud. I imagine we will lose him in chapter 3 or 4. Then we will get the lifestream sequence somewhere around 8 or 9. I think that’ll be so interesting from that point forward to see how the bonds from rebirth are affected by his true personality.

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      Yeah I’m excited for it all to feel fully cohesive.

    • @SamuelSabharwal
      @SamuelSabharwal 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@UltimaLuminaire hopefully he doesn’t still do this because it kinda feels like he does

    • @InsightfulAU
      @InsightfulAU 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@profnoctis I actually hope they go the flashback route again and Cloud is already gone at the beginning. Tifa and Barrett are captured and looking out at Meteor figuring out how they got here.
      Everything from Rebirth up to Cloud giving Sephiroth the Black Materia and that shebang over maybe Chapter 1-2. Chapter 3 is escape from Junon with the Weapon attack and big Highwind escape scene.
      Then off to Return to each town looking for the Return of Cloud.

  • @Mog_the_Moogle7
    @Mog_the_Moogle7 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +5

    Thank you to all 3 of you Kupos ❤️ for this, FF7R came into my life at a very traumatik time in my life. The story of 7 is very powerful and resonates a lot with people because it is very much a human story at its core. I would love to join your conversations but unfortunately we are in different time zones. Thank you, thank Kupo ❤️

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      These aren’t actually live, we prerecorded them all. So you’re getting them the same as everyone else. :)

  • @Dustman1028
    @Dustman1028 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Another great one guys!
    Stretch break answer:
    I FFXV Prompto is always taking photos of the group and the adventure and at the very end you get to review the journey you’ve been on and take 1 with you. In life my wife used to be always on me about taking photos of our daughter and stuff as she grew up. I was always a bit stubborn and said I’d rather live in the moment. But once I played FFXV and saw the impact or looking back on the journey as you were living it my perspective was completely changed. Now I try to always snap photos when I can so I’ll always have those memories to look back on.

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      I love this so much. Great answer.

  • @royso5917
    @royso5917 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    Great talk, guys!
    I find it really interesting how people have so many different takes on whether this game is a sequel. After finishing it and looking at the same things Bio-Roxas did, my takeaway is that it's 101% a sequel, even though his interpretation is the complete opposite:
    1. If you look closely, Rebirth is structured very similarly to Remake: the first 85% is a mostly faithful retelling with some small changes, and then the final 15% introduces totally new and different elements. I don't think that Aerith's loss of foresight at the beginning of Rebirth is a "change of plans" from the devs, but rather what allows the game to fit right into that pattern.
    2. The game not only hints that the events from the OG are destined to happen, but even suggests that they already *have*. For example, in the first phase of the Jenova Lifeclinger fight, Cloud says, "You've done it before, you can do it again".
    3. Some of the "flash forwards" don’t perfectly align what eventually takes place in the trilogy. In Remake, we get a glimpse of Aerith's death when she and cloud first meet, and it does not look like her death in Rebirth. This could be an oversight but other "flashback" scenes that are expanded upon in Rebirth are *extremely* consistent (Tifa in the reactor, Aerith's separating from her mom, Cloud's conversation with his mom)
    Sure, it could still all lead to the same outcome as the OG, but right now I don’t see that as more likely than the trilogy going simply being a sequel. My current theory is that the story is kind of a "Groundhog Day" scenario where the characters are reliving the same events. Both Remake and Rebirth hint at this, and I think by the end of part 3, the characters will fully realize what’s going on and try to change things for a better outcome. That way, we get both a retelling and, essentially, a chronological sequel.

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      It really is the best of both worlds that way, isn’t it? I’m curious if we will know for sure or not by the end of part 3. Or if the ambiguity will continue

    • @royso5917
      @royso5917 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@profnoctis I really hope they do make it clear either way. Poor Zack deserves answers!

    • @productjoe4069
      @productjoe4069 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      This is one of the reasons I think the next part will be called ‘Return’. There’s a lot of the ‘eternal return’ to this story: Barrett can’t let go of Corel, Tifa can’t let go of her father, Cloud can’t let go of *anything* but especially Aerith and Zack (even though his tactic for handling this is avoidance in an extreme way). Even Sephiroth can’t let go; of Cloud and, to be honest, his own life. This also relates to a lot of the Buddhist symbolism with the lifestream and the different ‘worlds’.

  • @GetWiley
    @GetWiley 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    What a fantastic episode.
    There's so much I want to say, but words start to lose their meaning after a point. From one man to another, thank you for everything you're doing, Wade. Sincerely.
    Congrats on 10k, buddy.

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@GetWiley thanks man. It feels really special. I can’t believe anybody watches, and to see this outpouring of support is so meaningful. Thanks friend!

  • @materiahunter8443
    @materiahunter8443 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    When does the discussion about Cloud actually start?
    Edit: To answer my own question it starts at 1:03:23

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      About halfway through. We always start by talking about the creator’s credentials and history first :)
      We get into the lifestream scene stuff and other characters in the back half

  • @InsightfulAU
    @InsightfulAU 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Interesting convo.
    My take is that people tend to forget that Cloud is essentially a 14-15 year old kid that has put on a persona to deal with huge trauma.
    He left home to join Soldier, didn’t make it, got caught up in crazy events with Zack and Sephiroth that saw him seeing his childhood crush “killed”, his “hero” basically killed by himself, experimented on for years by a psycho, only to escape and have his only friend die saving him… and is currently being manipulated by his “dead” hero because of the experiments that were done to him.
    Y’all touched on it though… his catharsis is him regaining his AGENCY. That’s what ties his and Zack’s story together in Rebirth (to me anyway)

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Excellent observation.

  • @philiphall6351
    @philiphall6351 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

    Looking forward to this for the dog walk.
    Also. Chadli is Weiss calling it

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Whoaaaaa

    • @philiphall6351
      @philiphall6351 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @profnoctis also with Zack. No one is talking how if he "is" in the timeline with the crew. With jenova cells. Why is he not part of the discussion? As in part of the reunion

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@philiphall6351 what do you think that would mean for part 3? How would it play out?

    • @philiphall6351
      @philiphall6351 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @profnoctis I mean, I've already made the bold saying that Chadley is Weiss because of hojo holding people. Whether in death or not. But it is Weiss.
      With Zack, people forget that even though his existence is death, he still has jenova cells in his body that affect the lifestream. I don't know the story itself. It could be where he turns up with cloud handing the black materia but he can't help as he is suffering too. I'm.not sure but it helps the other characters than Tifa after mideel

    • @philiphall6351
      @philiphall6351 2 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Ok I've thought about it. Given Zack is dead throughout the timelines.......with him finally being alive i think he is the final piece to jenovas cycle to be complete. When the reunion happens he is sacrificed over cloud when he is at his worse. Double guilt

  • @cloud_sky7227
    @cloud_sky7227 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I loved the episode! My favorite parts were the discussion on whether remake is a sequel or not and the psychology of the lifestream scene, Advent Children and Dyne. I will definitely check out Bio-Roxas' psychology series when i get the chance!

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      You won’t regret it. Bio makes GREAT content

  • @LullyJo
    @LullyJo 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    This has been a lovely watch! I love hearing folks talk about this story in such a thoughtful way using different lenses to make sense of its messaging.

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      This has been such a fascinating series. Can’t wait to hear from you!

    • @LullyJo
      @LullyJo 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@profnoctis I'm really looking forward to it!!!

  • @xcom54
    @xcom54 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

    1:17:42 Motorcycle mentioned! Cloud & Roche are going to ride together in Hawaii during the end credit of part 3!

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      This is all I want

  • @thatstheway2429
    @thatstheway2429 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Great video, love these kinds of topics.
    One minor piece of feedback: I think you need more precise timestamps. The last timestamp made it sound like it would be diving into the psychology of Cloud, but it was probably 15-20 mins about other topics (like identity as a creator). It was interesting but slightly misleading.

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@thatstheway2429 yikes! Thanks for that- that definitely wasn’t intentional. I’ll get that fixed!

    • @thatstheway2429
      @thatstheway2429 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@profnoctis no worries, it was a minor thing and I still listened to the whole thing as it was a great convo!
      If you add in more timestamps, I think the Dyne portion would be another good section, as I wasn’t expecting that but it’s a fascinating topic as well.

  • @NathanGamerPlays
    @NathanGamerPlays 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    truly awesome job everyone!! loved every single moment of it!!

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Glad to hear it!

  • @Dracobyte
    @Dracobyte หลายเดือนก่อน

    What a great guests!

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  หลายเดือนก่อน

      Bio was awesome

  • @rowanmorris2187
    @rowanmorris2187 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Still catching up. I think you are on lecture part 18 now.
    I'm about to watch part 3.Great content once again and as always thanks for your time.

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Preciate you watching these

  • @ETHomerin
    @ETHomerin 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Like Bio-Roxas I also thought we were initially in Sequel territory. My perspective changed as I caught up on the remainder of the compilation. Time and time again I'd see something old that I thought was new in Remake or Rebirth. My impression with Aerith's memory lose by the events Rebirth is that by being fooled into Sephiroth's game, Aerith might have temporarily lost the Planet's trust to regain it at the beginning of Chapter 14 in the other worlds with Cloud during his dreams.
    By doing this I think the developers are allowing us to enjoy two versions of Aerith. One is an Aerith that fits the lore of the last Cetra. Her powers are as fleshed out and detailed as the Lifestream. The other is the ordinary person who is enjoying the time she spends with her friends and is as optimistic about the future as she is afraid of it. By Aerith losing and regaining her powers, we get the Aerith we knew and loved and also a new Aerith whose powers make a lot of sense in this retelling, and we get it in enhanced lore and storytelling fashion. Once again, I'm doubling down on the Planet is like a person.
    When I thought the story was a sequel, I also had something horribly dark and similar to what Bio-Roxas thought. I tell you more about it soon. I'm still working on that essay with the parentage theme I told you about, and it is growing into something more than just Nibelheim content. I've been having a lot of fun.

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      Great observations and ideas. I LOVE that we are enjoying two versions of Aerith. Neat way of thinking about it

  • @Niosai
    @Niosai 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    2 HOURS oh man I gotta buckle in

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      Yep! We decided not to split it up

  • @smithianum
    @smithianum 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I definitely feel what he's talking about at 58:54.

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      He was so, so good here

  • @jonathanalejandro7221
    @jonathanalejandro7221 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    1:17:07-1:17:15 that’s why I love Advent children

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      100%

  • @thatstheway2429
    @thatstheway2429 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    I like the point he makes about writers sticking to the story they want to write. However, I don’t think this needs to be a hard rule.
    Counterpoint: the creators of Breaking Bad had intended to kill of Jesse Pinkman early on. But he was so beloved by fans (and the staff themselves), that they made him a more integral part of the story.
    I think it’s safe to say that was the best decision there.

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      This is a good point. I think it’s an interesting dynamic to have a sense of collaboration between the viewer and the creator

  • @UltimaLuminaire
    @UltimaLuminaire 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    Therapist on the show? Oh my goodness I'm getting excited. Gonna grab a drink and relax to this before work.
    On the comment about people interpreting Sora as being happy-go-lucky. Unfortunately, I think it's more like kids leave with the Destiny Isle as their only sound impression of Sora, with a more cursory impression from the artwork featured in the instruction booklet and promo materials. I distinctly recall that after Destiny Isle, 90% of the game is Sora acting in desperation. On top of that, because KH1 ends on a cliff, and CoM shows that there's an abyss beneath that cliff, KH2 never resolves that desperation. In fact, it escalates to the point where even reunions finally realized were no longer victories (which they would have been in KH1's theming). Both the thematic and character writing evolved to make exactly what Bio-Roxas is explaining, though I'd argue that the mask isn't as omni-present as stated.
    46:05 Narratively it is tough because she's not the main character. If the story was centered around Aerith and her PoV/character arc, it wouldn't be tough. However, Cloud is the focal point, both as acknowledged by the developers/Nojima, and as structured within the themes of the story + systems within the game, some ludo narrative dissonance aside. Also, you run the risk of overlapping too much with Tidus from FFX in the eyes of fans. Maybe that would work out in her favor, though.
    52:31 My screenwriting mentor was extremely strict about prototyping. You absolutely should have an outline of your protagonist and antagonist's arcs, and the arcs of any secondary characters. Within that structure, between the elements of their arc, you have infinite freedom already, and doing this will save you time otherwise wasted on rewriting everything from scratch over and over w/o releasing your work. You also won't easily lose sight of your themes (which is what writers should care about the most and are the core things undermined in the examples Bio-Roxas is giving), as they are front and center in your screenplay outline. This was demonstrated both for short story and 100 page/minute movie format, and is immensely powerful before starting novel manuscripts as well. You can even write a screenplay that will expand into a manuscript. The structure of a screenplay is like the skeleton of a manuscript and can serve as a functional prototype. Of course, this is with a commercial mindset. The idea is that you MUST release something for your survival. If this isn't your job, or you are already filthy rich, you can take whatever route you wish, professionalism be damned haha.
    1:18:23 That's a misunderstanding or specific use-case of the hero's journey. When prototyping, you absolutely should experiment with creating characters with deep flaws and anchor them with a redeeming quality. Create the space for growth without negating the themes you intend for your story. If your goal is to achieve a sort of power fantasy, then of course you tailor the prototype to that end. You can evolve a character into Jesus, Batman, Goku, a combination of things, or whichever will serve the themes best. However, pure self actualization is not what defines the use of the hero's journey or the hero with a thousand faces (which compiles cultural commonalities, like the ubiquitous theme of determination, for academic vetting). That is defined by what aspect of culture/experience you channel and your goals; it's what you put into it. In other words, it's not that rigid.
    1:35:46 Ah yeah this (Cloud's "trial") is the expansion of what was implied in Advent Children, and like you guys discuss with the end of disc 3 highwind scene, it will permeate the construction of the next game's conclusion. Cloud's reason for fighting got intercepted/scrambled by Sephiroth. Even after Tifa's efforts and winning the mental battle in the OG, Cloud is still the country bumpkin influenced most by the ideal of Sephiroth. When Sephiroth jabs at Cloud in start of Remake, saying, "I am your everything," it wasn't superficial at all. It was a deep dig at Cloud's core memories. Trust Sephiroth to mock/distrort Cloud for wishing on a monkey's paw and becoming both tragically powerful and powerfully tragic.

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +3

      Bioroxas was an absolutely phenomenal guest. You’re in for a treat!

    • @Cheesepoop
      @Cheesepoop 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      The scene where Sora threatened the organization right after killing Demyx always stuck out to me about him as a kid and even now

    • @UltimaLuminaire
      @UltimaLuminaire 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@profnoctis Completed the show and it absolutely exceeded my expectations. I've edited to reflect my reactions because I was just that invested haha

  • @SamuelSabharwal
    @SamuelSabharwal 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Consider this they wanted it to be a sequel but got scared and backed out and now the trilogy was a bait in 2 ways. It baited us into thinking the story could be new and exciting but then they changed it again and made it more faithful. I’m worried this seems like it could be the case and is literally the worst possible outcome

    • @thatstheway2429
      @thatstheway2429 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      …what?

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      A lot of folks do think this. I don’t think this is the case, and would probably be pretty disappointed if it were

  • @Uhoh_itsAshley
    @Uhoh_itsAshley 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    Not to be rude or anything but the title to this video should probably not be Clouds Breakdown bc literally there was like 2 sentences discussing his breakdown and the rest was about the Bio Roxas guys life and Barret and Dynes breakdown. It was a good video I still watched it but probably wouldn’t have if it had been titled Dynes Breakdown or Intro to Bio Roxas 🤷🏻‍♀️

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      That’s fair! I felt like we talked about the lifestream moment a good deal, but we definitely leaned into these other things too

    • @Uhoh_itsAshley
      @Uhoh_itsAshley 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      @@profnoctis I’ll rewatch it

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@Uhoh_itsAshley oh you don’t have to do that! We probably didn’t emphasize it as much as I remembered. Appreciate your comment

    • @Uhoh_itsAshley
      @Uhoh_itsAshley 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      @@profnoctis nw I watched it twice already I don’t mind rewatching it again. I’m actually super interested in Clouds mental state at the end of rebirth bc it’s literally so hard to understand where he’s at bc he never talks to anyone about how or what he’s feelings. We just have to guess based off of his perception of events. Also Sephiroth tells him he’s emotionless and doesn’t feel anything so there’s that to go off of but I still don’t get it tbh.

  • @JessicaLynn-x6o
    @JessicaLynn-x6o 3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

    I think Bio-Roxus has a great hypothesis about the end of final fantasy 7 part 3. I think it makes a lot of sense that Aerith has to die for the planet to be saved. Sakaguchi’s mother died during the development of ff7 and he was trying to come to terms with his mother’s death. Whenever you lose someone you love, you often think of how life would be different if they were alive. Aerith being Aerith would always want to do the better good because she loves all her friends. Aerith is very selfless. The developers have said that they want all the characters to have a happy ending. I believe that Aerith’s happy ending would be to finally reunite with Zack in the life stream.

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +2

      I think that’s the best ending possible for her

  • @Drw-id-Kirin
    @Drw-id-Kirin 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    You know Aerith's "final" weapon in Rebirth, the one where she sacrifices herself *but doesn't really die* ?
    Just like how Zack and Biggs didn't really die...and Seph...and Red...and Cloud...and Nibelheim didn't really burn...and Midgar didn't really get tornadoed like a trailer park...?
    Don't worry. You're not being trolled.
    Here is a fish for you while you sail down De Nile: >

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      Best part 3 name yet

    • @thatstheway2429
      @thatstheway2429 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

      This just made me think…
      FFVII: Remember

  • @xcom54
    @xcom54 3 หลายเดือนก่อน

    1:01:50 if he is talking about the shippers 😂, my advice is always "let them fight!" as Ken Watanabe said. IMO FF7 creators' also intentionally flaming it and let it spread like a wild fire. All we have to do is sit back, enjoy the Kaiju battle that the FF7 creators have setup, and don't worry about the shippers when theory crafting or speculating about part 3 etc. (for example, I like Max Dood's Aerith Jenova theory that seem to piss off some shippers for some reason. And he had to walk back or appease them. No man, believe in your own theory, until Part 3 come out)

    • @profnoctis
      @profnoctis  3 หลายเดือนก่อน +1

      lol it is what it is.