Cheap vs Expensive Red Dots: What's the Difference?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2024
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At SHOT Show this year I took some time to speak with Mike Branson of Gideon Optics (formerly of Primary ands and Swampfox). Mike's a friend and a true optics nerd, and I figured he could help give folks an understanding of some of the fundamentals of modern firearms optics. Today, we are going to talk about the differences between cheap and expensive red dots. Just what does a couple hundred bucks extra get you, and why?
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"They lie.
We know they are lying.
They know that we know they are lying.
But still they lie."
From politics to marketing, we are drowning in happy friendly little lies right to our face. I'm so happy to see these comments and know that everyone else is as tired with that as I am. What if one company said, "We don't need happy little white lies to be successful? We could just sell a good product at a good price and that would be enough." Be the change you want to see, I guess.
Thanks so much to Ian for giving me the opportunity to put our brand name in front of so many eyeballs. I'm hoping you'll see more from us on Forgotten Weapons soon! --Mike
I'll be a future customer because of this video. Well played.
Appreciate your honesty - very refreshing! I am glad you mentioned your Omega emitter is now S Korea sourced rather than PRC. It's a damn shame we can't get value optics like yours US made.
Definitely gotta look through your website. I've been wanting to try out a reddot on my carry gun for a while but not wanting to spend to much money on my first one I was unsure what to go with. That interview might have put Gideon at the top of the list for me
Mike this level of transparency and honesty makes me much more likely to consider buying one of your products. I found this interview very interesting and informative and I appreciate the time and effort you took to answer Ian's question.
@@dstark3383 The first step is to get a clean room and start repairing things here. Then you start assembling products here. Then you start sourcing THIS piece and THAT piece from inside CONUS instead of overseas. Probably you never get to a truly 100% USA manufactured product where the metals to make the aluminum were mined here inside the USA. But just because you never reach the unreachable star doesn't mean you shouldn't take steps to move in that direction.
That gentleman is refreshingly honest and BS free.
yea, the way how he speaks about his competition gives him a lot of credibility
Hes a buffoon
I have asked him questions on line about his last company and I got an answer right away. Honest.
I just sent the link to some buddies. I used the word “refreshing” also. Really enjoyed that quick interview
A vast wealth of knowledge and experience. What strikes me, this caliber of man is intentionally being prohibited and near impossible to achieve by the government. From poor education teaching to the lowest common denominator to incentivising companies to hire and promote by anything other then merit.
How do I teach my 5yo son to rise to this level as a man? This caliber of ability in our nation is a rapidly dieing breed, in 10 the AliExpress special will be all you can get.
The fact that he was so brutality honest and said "my product isn't as good as the aimpoint but for my application I don't need it to be" was very refreshing
It's realistic. I see people with tools all the time and they're all like I need the best. They're not operating in any rarefied environment where they need the best. But if you got too much cash and that's how you want to blow it then have at it.
Exactly.
There's a difference between "best quality" and "the right quality".
Most of the time civilians dont need the best quality.
@@1pcfredthat’s why tool companies have multiple brands within their company. You have a “I just need to put a screw in to hang this painting” brand, a DIY/weekend warrior brand, a non-professional regular user brand, and then you have the gucci professional / show-off / blow-hard / tox-tic-wannabe brand for 3x as much. It’s just a mix of marketing bullshit, brand recognition and price for purpose.
@@andrewallason4530 when I worked in a tool and die shop we only had the Gucci line. When this guy said 15% attrition I thought, as if. We threw stuff out like it was going out of style. With us on our flagship product it was more like 90%. But that shop was kind of a joke too. A really old guy owned the company and it was running down along with him. He was 84 when I worked there. So it was bizarro world.
@@andrewallason4530 actually true to a lot of industries. toyota vs lexus, dell vs alienware, etc.
“It’s not just as good” - I never thought id hear those words from a manufacturer. I appreciate the objectiveness
"Our optics does... optics stuff."
The guy's good at selling Aimpoints and Trijicons.
@@anteshell When are you going to jump out of a plane, into water, with your optic? Never.
You're exactly the guy he's making optics for...
@@anteshell The guy's good at selling his own product, actually. You buy what you need _and_ can afford. Don't be prissy.
The 2 degree tolerance might bug me, but the man already said I can call up for a new one, and I can set up three of my guns for the price of a single Aimpoint. They may not be able to withstand -40c to 40c to -40 temp cycles or salt water like the milspec Aimpoint, but then I don't need that kind of robustness in a weekend plinker *or* my EDC. I'm a civilian, not urban fucking Rambo.
@@Sun-ut9gr " They may not be able to withstand -40c to 40c to -40 temp cycles or salt water like the milspec Aimpoint"
Neither do I, so it doesn't matter
Guys, look up. The point I made is somewhere there way over your head. :D
The explanation between being a legit operator, and a casual competition shooter, was perfect.
Most red dot shooters are not even competition shooters. They are just Saturday shooters.
@@ZaypharOne Saturday a quarter shooters.
Yeah, good competition shooters put their gear through the paces.
Not the physical extremes, but it has to hold pinpoint accuracy.
I would be curious to see if it'd hold under those conditions as well.
@@ShrockWPShe just said he’s trying to make B class, and I assume he’s running his own brand, so he’s def putting his through his paces (I’m coming from holosun)
This is, by a wide margin, the most compelling sales pitch I have ever heard for an optics company. "Not the best but good enough for whatever YOU are going to do with it." Bravo to them, I'll remember this the next time I'm in the market.
Truly? I left thinking I'll get a Holosun. Did you actually leave feeling that you personally want to buy one? There are Holosuns in this price range, and he openly admitted his QC is not good.
Honesty is great, but business is business. I don't want to hear that your competitor is way more advanced than you.
@@geometerfpv2804 I'm not currently in the market for a new red dot, but I'm sure I will be at some point. When I am, I'll have a look and see how their prices compare. If I can get a holosun for the same price, I would get a holosun. If I can save a bit and still get the job I have for it done, why not?
@@geometerfpv2804 if it's not trijicon it's Chinese 💩 so take scoopful and eat like the rest of us I run primary arms knowing it's cheap Chinese doo doo but it survives torture tests.
@@geometerfpv2804 He didn't say that their QC is worse. He just said that their tolerances are not as tight.
@@geometerfpv2804 He didn't say it wasn't good, he just said it wasn't tight. He's not intentionally selling lemons he's just not being picky and if you get one you don't like he'll send you one that's more trammed up. And the price range is actually lower than holosun, I just picked up an Omega for $150 delivered and I can't find holosuns for under $200.
I love it when businesses are honest about their position relative to their competitors.
I dont expect a cheaper optic to give me top tier performance, we both know it won't, but if you help me set my expectations properly I'm going to be a lot happier with your product than if you promise me the moon and don't deliver.
Honesty is based
Or sell you a gigantic stereo system and your pregnant girlfriend walks in.
There's something noble about product that does what it says on the tin.
@@wurzel9671 Honesty is based? What does that even mean?
@@garywboisseau as in, “Honesty is awesome/something all should strive for”
My favorite part was when he admitted he didnt know how much the big brands upcharge because of brand recognition and in order to do so, he'd have to have access to thier books. That's the only truly correct answer to that question and he just said it plainly and openly, which i genuinely appreciate.
I want this guy to succeed
Me too. I want him to succeed and have this company grow. His honesty is appreciated and commendable. And, I learned some things from him that I previously didn’t know.
I worked for years in the luxury automotive market, and I can tell you that the more expensive a car is the higher the markup percentage is not in just total dollars. And you can sell a Toyota for example below what the dealer cost is, but if you give a discount at all on some high end Land Rover, you can lose your rights as a dealer.
I think a more interesting and informative question might be what his costs and markup might be if he were to make an optic aiming for similar quality to a trijicon or aimpoint
The better more economically sound wording is "How much of a premium are buyers putting on a brand's reputation?". No company can upcharge at will otherwise alliexpress would be selling $2000 red-dots.
It's super refreshing to hear someone from a budget brand admit they're a budget brand.
AND, explain why you may not honestly NEED the big name brand!😄😄😄
@@stephencolley334 yeah but you never really know when you have to halo jump and do an underwater insertion, now do you?
@@stephencolley334The same reason why people buy sportscars or tune a regular car when the majority of roads are 25-55mph.
I should have added this makes me more likely to buy their product, the fact that they're being honest about what it is
@@1pcfredYou just need one high end set for your competition/duty/carry. The rest can be lower end to fit/test on different builds.
Alternate Title:
Ian speaks with worlds most honest man
"It ain't much but it's honest work"
You really have to appreciate an honest man.
Being that much cheaper than his competition he can easily afford to be.
@@1pcfred About 80% quality for 30% of price.
Usually being cheap and avaible is far better thing to have than
best in class but because of price it is bit out of reach for many people.
There's a level of wisdom to admitting things that you don't know. I'd never heard of Gideon Optics before today, but I'd consider them in the future due to this gentleman's candor and honesty.
You are certainly not the only one. I still have at least a few more to buy and will definitely be investigating these.
Well said. I agree completely.
This man once again proves that the best and most refreshing thing a company owner/rep can be is honest and open.
Possibly the most refreshingly honest guy at shot show. And he's absolutely right. Is my vector optics red dot as good as an rmr? No. Do i need it to be for my use case? Also no. Just knowing that has saved me many hundreds of dollars
Vector is my favorite budget optic brand. My carry gun has a legit RMR on it but all of my range toys have various vector optics on them and not one is giving me any trouble.
Same here. I see absolutely no reason to pay the price of the gun for a dot that will only ever be used at a range.
When I started shooting over 20 years ago, it was either pay for the good stuff, or get burned on the cheap stuff. Things have improved so dramatically, from quality to choice, it's almost hard to buy a terrible optic today. Have to love the free market.
First red dot I bought was a Bulgarian open red dot sight. Every time I pulled the trigger (5.56), the recoil would kill the power. I'd have to turn it back on, cycle through the reticle options to get the one I wanted, then repeat the process. That was a $200 something dollar optic too, in early 2000s dollars.
Absolutely the best possible advertising Gideon could have done. Mike knows his value proposition and can articulate quickly and clearly without any hedging or weasel words.
I usually don’t like to watch those shot show floor interviews, but that was suuuuper interesting, that guy really knows his stuff, thanks for the great video Ian ! ❤
ditto!
Same. Everyone always speaks like a salesperson that thinks their product is the best shit since sliced bread, making the who ordeal unwatchable, but not this guy. Completely honest dude who knows his product isn't as good as those of top brands' but also has no reason to be because the average Joe will only ever use it at a range.
I like that Ian just let him talk, too. The guy was on a roll but he stayed on track.
This person perfectly understood what are the worst mistakes you can make in marketing: belittling good competitors and overvaluing your product. The example of the operator who jumps from a plane is "on target" to explain this.
Customers who can believe "My product is the best of the best and the cheapest" can only believe you once but time and reality are the enemy, especially today with the amount of information available. The truth pays.
By the way: I've seen the most expensive Aimpoints put on airsoft used only for plinking in the garden......... because it's the best. Some people have more money than brains.
"Some people have more money than brains."
Or as Grandma used to put it: "More dollars than sense."
I didn’t expect this interview to go this way it’s amazing to see the honesty here basically saying yah we’re the okest and that’s ok. This actually made me consider there optics
Same. I'd much rather buy an admittedly mid-grade optic from an honest company, than the "best" optic of unknown actual quality.
that little bit of info about holosun was REAALLY interesting.
Ditto !!!
That man is a business man and not just a seller with his mind on the bottom line.
And how nice that he in simple words can explain convoluted answers.
I wish for guys like him will do well in the industry
In todays market there is always place for thatkind of salesman who actually
knows their target audience.
Great to see Mike on your channel! Many years ago he and my wife and I and 10 others attended a carbine class together..in a corn field in Kansas with a torrential downpour of rain it was close to becoming a maritime event 🤣... good times were had that weekend!
Wait... were you and your wife running his-and-hers Kalashnikovs that weekend? If so, it's been over ten years but I still remember you!! I remember thinking you guys were "couple goals" and guess what, years later my amazing wife and I are becoming firearms instructors together, so I got my wish!
@GideonOptics2023 hahaha... yep we were running our 74's...
@@GideonOptics2023 my pp dont work ):
Gideon Optics is now a manufacturer I plan to keep strongly in mind. Great interview, and a very strong argument!
That is the best, most honest ad for both Aimpoint and Gideon I've ever heard. You've earned my business and respect. Hats off, sir.
But, do ALL RED DOTS mount to ANY PLATE? I have a Leupold still in a box, because it doesn't mount to the ONLY plate available to for my Ruger 5-7. I am still pissed 1000.00 Sitting on a shelf, for a gun, I never fired because there is NO STANDARDS in mounting. (The most basic problem-- has that been fixed)???
Q: Why did the pirate have a steering wheel in his pants?
A: It's driving me nuts!
@@jackdundon2261there are some standards, but its not universal, you need to still research whether it will fit your gun or not.
The most honest Shot Show interview I’ve ever seen. Kudos to the seller and for Ian for being cordial with his line of questions that manufactures usually are uncomfortable to answer.
Really appreciate the honesty in this video. Thanks Mike for being a straight shooter (pun intended)
Tactleneck and waistcoat. Archer would be proud.
Could give Lindy Beige a run for his money?
Just needs a timepiece on a chain...to improve those runs!
Rolled sleeves too. Now THIS is the 'smart but practical' look I need. Begone hoody and cargo pants!
These Odin dicks! "Where did you get your turtleneck, the turtleneck store?"
The fake mustache indicates a possible honey pot operation.
Mike is reason I bought into Swampfox. He was the oil that kept their social media running
Same. great dude and wouldn't have gotten my arrowheads if he wasn't there.
But, can I mount THEIR Red dot, to ANY PLATE? (THAT mounts to any pistol).
@@jackdundon2261 There is no red dot that fits any plate that mounts to any pistol. Don't be dumb.
I’ll probably buy an optic from them just to try out after this interview. Crazy how refreshing honesty is.
The MP5 being swiped from the table at 0:56 had me 😂
😂😂 I've had to replay that multiple times
I really respect the level of honesty this guy puts forward, very much makes me consider them ahead of peers
The zip neck long sleeve plus waistcoat is an epic combo 🔥🔥🔥
Wonder if Lindy Beige feels challenged?
I’d love to get a hold of a couple of those Aimpoints with the one degree cant that went trash
Great interview, this guys candor about what to realistically expect from their dots is refreshing.
The most honest public conversation at a company shotshow booth of all time? Probably... It's refreshing to hear such an experienced industry individual be so open and honest about insights of the optic market, of which basically nobody else will... Sounds like the type of business I'd like to support, well atleast when I don't HALO jump into an over the beach underwater insertion to access my local range where I blast away 100rds of the cheapest FMJ available at cardboard! 😂👍This was a great video.
Love how honest this guy is. Hope gideon optics is successful. With an owner like this they should be.
This is amazingly honest and informative.
I've heard of Mike in passing, but good to put a name to a face. Also, I appreciate the candid approach. Owning your product for what it is, what it can and can't do, is respectable.
Completely appreciate the honesty. Cool dude. Thanks for this video.
This might be the most honest sales pitch i have ever seen... bravo. I will check out his company for future optics purchases for sure. We have similar use cases
I love how authentic this guy is. I think I will be picking a Gideon up
I appreciate his honesty.
Thank You for just being honest, it's refreshing.
You'd think being too honest like that would be a problem, but I very much appreciated his openness.
UNFORTUNATELY, many/most companies will fire an employee for this kind of honesty!😪😪😪
As a practitioner of radical honesty, I deeply appreciate seeing others with similar core values. I don't generally expect others to embody my own beliefs, and I'm not going to hate others for failing to meet my admittedly high bar. But, when I DO occasionally see/encounter others practicing similar levels of honesty, it's incredibly endearing. I've been considering a red dot for my MP5K, and I'm now going to seriously consider his products as well. Primarily just because of this interview and what I saw in it.
Straight up honesty like that will always serve you well.
Until the company owner/CEO (aka money/profit/bonus hungry jerk) catches you and fires you!😥😥😥
@@stephencolley334If I was the CEO, I'd give this man a raise.
Why? Because he made it very clear why you don't need a 700$ optic if you just go plinking on the weekend. When your business focuses on budget solutions that are good enough, this is how you get new customers.
Cool. I'm a mechanical engineer with [mumble] years of experience. You just got the straight word. On my camera with the long lens, I don't use a Holosun or even an Olympus. I use $38 of Amazon sight + camera mount adapter. Reason? I don't jump out of C-17s & there is no firing shock from a camera shutter. If I wanted a pistol sight, I'd be looking at Gideon.
My man was like, “Quit buying Ferraris when you know you’re not a race car driver. Stick to the pickup because that’s what works for you.”
That's actually really good analogy. And you will be happier with the pickup. You have more money for other things etc. I usually have bought the "ferraris" just to impress friends and other nonsense reasons. Luckily I have matured a little in that sense. Just buy what works for you and your budget. And respect your buddies budgets also.
actually the analogy was about not buying the pick up, when you only need an sedan
This guy was very likeable and honest. The stark contrast between this owner interview talking about his products and TFB's interview with Kevin the owner of Q 🤣🤣
Amazing video. Mike Branson was so humble and appeared to be level headed and honest to a fault. I’d love to see more discussion with him or topics like this!
Awesome guy, awesome business ethics, awesome honesty
Roger that!😀
You hit the nail on the head!😀
ETHICS!!!😃😃
Sorely missed in todays world!
😢😢😢😢
Wow, a nice honest guy. Makes me want to buy something from him. Need more people like him.
Simple: if there is a US or European made alternative, buy that. I’m not going to put some Chinese made stuff on my fine German guns.
I cannot tell you how much I appreciated this interview. This guy is a RELIEF to hear from. Just because of this video I am now looking at Gideon.
Shooting straight and speaking the truth. What more can you ask for. That is why I love this channel.
Man, I RESPECT the honesty and transparency from this guy! Definitely gonna give his products a look!
WOW!! How refreshingly honest!! I will look at his products the next time I am looking for an optic, just based on his candid remarks in this video! 👍👍
I appreciate honesty and candor.
That level of honesty in the commercial world is quite refreshing. He's just won my respect and business.
This is the best 10 minutes on commercial optics I've ever seen. Thank you Mike!
WHOA!!! An honest, candid, extremely well informed vendor at an exhibition - leave it to Gun Jesus to find a breath of fresh air. I fall mostly into the "2 degree canted reticle is just fine" camp for recreational target shooting. I have a Leupold DPP on my Glock 34. It's great, but i also have a $59 Amazon reflex knock off on my plinking AR. The latter works just fine for my use.
Dude knows his stuff! Always thought holosun had the best looking dots but now I know why. Thanks!
Honest salesman! Wish him the best!
Good points all. A very respectable and sensible perspective.
i like this guys honesty and explanations.
Best of luck to this guy, I very much appreciate his candor.
Loving the honesty here.
Fantastically honest, informative and logical! Mission drives the gear. If you aren't doing SEAL missions, do you need their gear or do you just want it? Very refreshing. I also liked the point that when you buy the tier 1 optics, you aren't just paying for the one in your hand, you're also paying for the ones that would work, but those that for whatever reason didn't pass the specs (such as reticle cant).
What a delight that interview was. Honest and to the point. Thanks.
Outstanding candid, direct and fairly comprehensive answers! Much appreciated.
Fantastically interesting to hear someone being so honest about his products. I'm very curious to see his work now.
We need more honesty and straightforward facts from companies like this. These guys are awesome!
Nothing he said is anything anyone shouldn't already know. Specs is what drives costs up. Reaching specs is an exponential climb too. You're always getting diminishing returns. To make something twice as good it costs 10 times as much. Sometimes it's worse than that.
Good subject. It’s refreshing to hear such frank answers from a company. The shooting industry has way too much hype in marketing its products.
Definitely agree!🙂
Too much "we ARE the BEST"!
Honest comparison of features, with truth of WHY yours is better (for MY needs/application)!😯
Just might get you an on the spot sale!
😃😃😃
Cool and honest conversation bout the real world differences. Its refreshing to get a lil honesty
Thank you for honesty and being so down to earth! Having good enough stuff helps me invest more into other critical areas.
Excellent interview, THANKS IAN and the FW Team!
Appreciate the honesty...
Thank you.
Gideon Optics just sold me on making a few purchases from them on my next build.
The brutal honesty and focusing on the things that truly matter when producing optics to keep the cost down is definitely needed in the industry of optics.
I expect great things from this company in the future.
I'm willing to give them a shot.
Wow. I've never seen an interview/q&a like that before. I hope his honesty pays dividends.
It was an amazingly honest interview and I found it to be refreshing. I’m definitely going to check his stuff out.
In a sea of Shot Show pitches ... this was one of the most refreshing interviews I've heard from an equipment manufacturer in years!
This level of honesty in a world where deceit has become the standard is worth my support alone. Shoutout to Mike from Gideon Optics for being a man of integrity. I hope Gideon Optics experiences enormous growth and becomes the #1 brand for affordable quality optics.
Incredibly refreshing to see a "start-up" not blowing smoke up their own ass. He seemed genuinely excited and pleased to have a platform to talk about his company! Kudos! I am certainly going to buy one or more of these this year; just because I found this video by Ian.
Refreshingly honest and no BS. Can we have more of him on the channel please?
Thanks. Since I mostly plink in the back pasture his honesty has me now seriously looking into gideon for a few different firearms. Refreshing interview!
Wow, how honest was that explanation. I learnt a lot right there, thank you both.
What a decent guy, excellent interview. Lets hope the honest guy wins extra sales from this event and Ian's video.
Great interview. No BS just facts from a design expert. Refreshing to hear his honesty!!
I love that guy! Lmao by far the most honest & open optic conversation iv seen. The transparency makes me want to support the company by trying a dot on my next casual fun build
That explanation around minute 5: Excellent for information and entertainment.
Thank you for the interview and the honesty of Gideon. I did purchased a Swampfox LPVO because of Him and now I'll definitely be a costumer of Gideon. 100%
I really liked his no BS attitude and I hope I'll find some Gideon products in Sweden soon 😃
Wow! His honesty is refreshing. I'm going to check out his products just cause of it.
Love how he's refreshingly honest and free of all those marketing bs.
I have a Gideon Optics Alpha on my LTT M9A3 and I LOVE it.
Mike is an awesome guy and I wish nothing but the best for him and Gideon!
i really appreciate this guys honesty
I love this guys honesty! Big hand for the best sales pitch I ever heard!
This is the type of guy that is a pleasure to do business with.
He's refreshingly honest.
Love his honesty!
I've received a Gideon Optics Judge and it had served its purpose as the optic on my competition 22lr pistol and I've moved it over to my 22LR rifle.
Honesty is so underrated. Great video and explanation.
Fascinating how honest and clear he is. I would buy from him in a heart beat.