This was driven home to me in Afghanistan during Operation Anaconda. I had a poor trooper from the 101st come up to me and ask if I had seen an ACOG lying around anywhere. He was about to hop on a helicopter and head back downrange and at some point his sight got loose and went missing. The poor guy was about to head into a full on battle with no sites. I will never have a defensive firearm without a set of irons just in case...
How did he lose that, we always had all sights, peq2A, lights, Nods, etc... all had to be tied down, pretty sure was not just unit SOP either, and that was 20yrs+ ago
@@RLBvkjf dummycording is SOP if I recall for nearly all line units. Even in BCT they make you dummycord your CCO. Im having a hard time believing the story that his SL didn't do anything about his ACOG missing and it not being dummycorded to begin with
Pro tip, if you run a true co-witness height mount, you can go with a front sight only and use the Ring of your optic as a giant ghost ring if it gets broken or the battery dies. This works very well to about 50 yards.
That's how I have my SBR setup. With the RDS mounted as far forward on the receiver as possible, the ghost ring effect isn't much dissimilar as an A2 rear sight with the 0-2 aperture ring right up against your eye.
I believe Luck Gunner did a video were his red dot was drifting around because his emitter had come loose. With co-witness sights one can notice this more quickly than he was able to. This is also useful if your sight has come loose on its mounts. Which more likely to happen (than a malfunction on a sight) especially if your sights are easily removable.
"You've..cowitnessed..it?" 🤔 You guys kill me. 🤣 I never served, didn't hunt as a kid, and none of my friends were into guns. Needless to say, deciding that shooting sports, smithing/building was gonna be my new hobby, was a little intimidating. Your videos have proven to be invaluable, and I greatly appreciate the wealth of knowledge contained therein. Keep up the great work, guys!!!
When you create a weapon, it's owner's obligation to make it perfect and ready for action. It's like raising your child, you do your best to make them flawless.
I love the lower 1/3 co witness. I run an Eotech with a lower 1/3 mount in combination with fixed DD iron sights so I don’t have to flip up my sights if I need them in the heat of the moment, while also still getting the clear site picture when using the Eotech with the lower 1/3. Best of both worlds.
My dad pretty much instilled into me to have dual sights. He pretty much always had some form of backup site on his rifles. And he that was just hunting rifles. Even his old Remington 700 had dual sights. The scope mount was raised up and the rings have openings to look through. So, you could use both the scope and the iron sights with out having to change/remove anything.
I think absolute cowitness makes good sense when we're talking about flip up sights. If the sights are fixed, on the other hand, cowitness ruins the advantage of a dot optic for me which is mainly a less cluttered sight picture.
I use full cowitness. The rear peep sight helps people with astigmatism focus the dot. So if you don’t have your glasses on you get a better sight picture.
The answer to this question is simple. You can only rock back up sights if you have a qd mount or a high optic. I mount at 1.93 with my unity mount and can see my sights fully thought the middle of my mount.
All of my ARs, whether range guns, defensive, duty rifles when I was an LEO and my hunting guns all have a set of BUIS. At one of my previous jobs we were issued Bushmasters with the old AA EoTech on a GG&G extended rail riser to enable the attachment of our PVS-14's and it still had the front sight post, but no rear BUIS. We constantly had batteries going dead but the higher ups refused to just replace them on a schedule. they told us in an emergency you could use the EoTech as a large "ghost ring" sight if you needed it before a supervisor could get there with fresh batteries. Too bad the EoTech was on the riser so you would be shooting 20 feet above their heads at 50 yards!
On my CQB defense gun, I have back-up sights that are not co-witnessed. However the optic is on a quick detach mount so it can be jettisoned if it has any issues.
I always, always run BUIS and lights on everything. Even range toys have the potential to be a defensive weapon. In the heat of the moment (also a great song), so many things can happen and you grab what is convenient. All my firearms, even my little one’s 10/22, is put through the ringer to make sure they can fill any role at any time. That’s probably just my neurosis kicking in though.
My primary use of BUIS is for inclement weather. I live in the upper Midwest and like to shoot outdoors year-round. When shooting in below freezing temperatures lenses often fog and freeze/frost over or get snowed on. In the rain a red dot can be slower than irons depending on the optic design and how hard it's raining. For this reason, my primary focus is on having offset irons I can use without adjusting my primary optics. If I can mount an optic high enough to see irons under it like on a carry handle (master mount on AKs) or a unity style mount that is my preference. Elcans can be nice for this since they were designed with arctic considerations from my understanding, and the ACOG that has top mounted irons is useful too. If that is not an option, or practical on a build I will settle on 45-degree offset BUIS.
I have a HS-507C backed up by a viridian green laser on my HD AR. No irons. I also keep a spare battery for both Optics and my pistol grip storage compartment along with the wrenches to install them. On a range toy no need.
Several years back I was shooting in a local 3-gun match. When my turn came to do the RO duties I happened to get to run this guy that worked for Barrett firearms, he always had the coolest new equipment. The course started at one position and then about a 50 yard run shooting targets along the way. The shooter was much faster than I but in the middle of the run he stops for a few seconds then takes off again. When we got to the end and I had him clear I asked him what he stopped to do. He told me that his Eotech had died mid run and he had to flip up his back up's. I told him that was a pretty quick change and he said that he had practiced that. I told him that didn't shine a good light on his primary sight. In the last year I have had a H407c on a Taurus 22 competition die in the safe. And a brand new Trijicon S R O die on a 9mm pistol after the first round. So yeah I would recommend some form of back up sights.
For some of us iron sights are almost useless. Personally, I have to make the rear sight opening so small that it severely restricts the light passing through. So I use heavy prism sights combined with red dots.
I like an absolute co-witness. For me it's an either, or operation. I don't use my red dot and backup sights at the same time. If my red dot goes down I just turn it off and pop up my backups. Later if I replace my red dot I can use my backup sights to initially zero the new red dot. It works for me. Another benefit is I will buy a budget optic with features to decide whether or not I want to get a better optic with that feature. For instance, I bought a NC Star because it has a three color dot. Red, green and blue, I find that the green and blue dots don't Starburst as bad with my astigmatism. So now I am researching better optic options with multiple color dots and will try to find a local shop that may have one I can demo.
ALL of my AR's have backup sights. It's just too easy to have them, and no negatives. I have Holosuns (the "military" models with QD mounts) which are very reliable and very long battery operation. Still, something can go wrong, rain on the lenses, broken lens from a blow. I can always flip up the MBUS sights and even see through the red dot, or remove the red dot altogether. The height of the Holosun gives "lower 1/3 cowitness", but the MBUS, if sighted in, will be right with the dot. In fact, you can sight in the red dot, flip of the MBUS, adjust those to cowitness with the red dot, and they will be right on or very close, needing only a click or so adjustment after that. I have a few rifles with 1-4x scopes, but those have QD bases, so they can be removed quickly and the MBUS sights flipped up. I just can't think of a reason to not have the MBUS or other backup sights on the rifle.
I have back up sights for no particular reason. I use the Vortex units on my ARs that have a laser etched reticle, so in the event of battery failure, I got something to work with.
I use offset on my ar, I don't like the clutter of co witness, and never need to worry about the need to flip up my sights if I need them. Offset also works with magnified sights as the don't interact with each other.
I flip the front site backward on shorter barrel lengths to get top railstuff further forward ..and just a smidgen longer site radius ..the post lays just past the handguard..
Lower 1/3 if you have fixed would be my choice. Since I run only popup BUS they co-witness so my head, check well, etc doesn't change when presenting/looking down sites.
I disagree to some extent. There are plenty of optics out there now that have battery life beyond any length of time you would need. The Holosun optics have solar panels and work with no battery at all, and pretty well. Sure if you are going into a combat zone where you are not able to leave or be supplied for a while it would be good to have backup sights, but it doesnt specficially mean they have to be on the gun they could be in a spare pouch. It depends on their size and I find them to add clutter and snag points at times. For most civilian use they probably aren't ever going to be used, you can use the red dot tube as a makeshift peep sight with just a front sight and even possibly without it, or aim down the rail, your gun will still function to get you out of there in a defensive situation. If you are that worried about the optic being ripped off the gun then just run irons only to begin with, or practice more with no sights to get a feel for it. In the days of today with the tech we have I don't think they particularly need to be on the gun. A nice to have, sure, if you feel more comfortable that way then sure and if you like how that looks on the gun and doesn't add any extra weight or annoyance, some sleek small flip up sights might work. But some of the big beefy fixed sights and co-witness seem to me as something that wont ever get used in normal defensive applications unless you don't maintain your gun and inspect its status every so often. InRangeTV had some good points on this during their WWSD concept videos which I think are good points to make. Such as if they go down during a match your scores are likely screwed anyway having to go to irons regardless. All the points about the dot coming loose and falling off or being knocked off or broken could still happen to the iron sights as well. And if they are co-witnessed without a QD mount then your irons are totally blocked anyway if the red dot gets covered in mud or paint or cracks on the glass. For bombproof optics with solar I don't see a need for it other than a warzone where you cannot resupply.
I have one rifle with absolute co-witness, one with lower 1/3. Absolute is mission oriented to close distance (100-175ish yards), lower 1/3 is for longer distance (200-450 yards). Short distance rifle has 0 magnification red dot with flip magnifier, long distance rifle has LPVO with FSP and etched reticle (and 45° offset red dot as additional back up).
Offset vs. backup irons? I usually do the backup irons with red dots. I have an ACOG rifle with a 45 degree offset. Sometimes I'm tempted to go this route since canting the rifle is faster than flipping up a sight or two.
Education, Training, and Experience says Backup Sites are a must. Murphy Love's me so a backup to my backup is why my patrol vehicle has extra magazines and rounds for pistol, rifle, and shotgun. Everything has iron sights due to the Mk 1 Eyeball.
For everything needed and electronic, I think there should be a back-up, then there is glass which can get spotted (in rain) or fogged. As a former Infantry Marine, I only had iron sights '81-'85 and we shot in all conditions for the experience of knowing how to deal with them. As for fun guns, I still like etched reticles so if the batt fails, or a malfunction occurs, it still works. My go-to, has EOTech/G33 combo with flip-up Meprolight (Tritium at front post and four dots around rear peep sight) which work very good. I just flip the G33 out of the way, pop-up the back-ups and go to town, night or day.
I agree they are a "why not" kind of thing if you can cowitness with your optic without tools but i seen them on rifles with scopes with no qd mounts. If buis are for a defensive rifle, and that rifle has a non qd scope mount with a lpvo, is there a point to having buis? If you cant get the rear sight up without tools, isnt the buis basically useless in a gun fight?
The battery in my red dot died last week at USPSA and I learned that the Holosun solar panels are not entirely a gimmick. I did order batteries and put them in my range bag though.
Co-witness is great with folding sights just because if you need to deploy the irons the cheek weld doesn't change. Muscle memory. Especially important in a serious situation.
currently, I only have a indoor range of 25yds to shoot at, and can not justify the cost of scopes or these red dot sights... if my situation was to change, I'll adjust accordingly... but iron sights on a AR type rifle is all I know...the one thing I did invest in, was a standard carry handle that I am use too...other than that, its straight forward "peep and post" for my Colt...
I have a scope with an offset red dot, and no backup irons. If all my batteries die, I can still use the scope. Realistically, I will never be in a scenario where both optics are completely destroyed and unusable, so backup irons aren't practical. However, if I had a gun with just a red dot, I would put irons as well just in case.
For all of my combat/defensive burners I run BUIS. I have them co-witnessed with my optics. I run absolute because of my cheek bones. All of my rifles are set up the same way and I use a 36yd zero.
On the worksheet 4999 ATF for braced pistols, putting back up sights is a no no. From worksheet atf 4999. The final rule could come down next month. Presence of Rifle-type Back-up / Flip-up Sights / Or no sights 1 point Presence of Reflex Sight with FTS Magnifier w/ Limited Eye-Relief 2 points Presence of a Sight/Scope with Eye Relief Incompatible with one-handed fire 4 points = SBR
I have the Brownells Retro scope on the "carry handle" on a Stag 15 M4 carbine with the iron sites still on it. I then have a red dot reflex on a 45 degree offset for CQB. I set this up for anything but long range.
I set mine up for lower 1/3 for the same reason. Even better when you lay the front post down but it's nice to have a reference and a backup already there in your sight picture.
I have been flying to competitions for about 3 years now. The first 2 years I always had backup sights on my rifle. This year, my buddy had a very strange failure on his Aimpoint which ruined the whole competition for him. His aimpoint had shifted significantly. We still dont know why but we suspect that it happend somehow during the handling and transportation of the firearm during the flight (even though it has been in a very good hard case).
When traveling through any kind of luggage transition period where the firearm has to go through customs or whatever it may be.... ALWAYS witness mark your turrets and / or windage adjustment buttons/screws. Twice now I've had my firearms mucked with where whoever was storing my firearms thought it would be funny to twist my elevation and windage tabs.
I am working on 2 AR builds. My AR15 will have backup sights to increase its utility and versatility. My AR10, 7x62x51/308, will only have a LPVO for intermediate range shooting and will not be meant for CQC and home defense.
I was thinking about this the other day, my scope does not have quick detach mounts so i would need to go home and get a tool to take it off to use my Back up sights. Where I could just reach in my gun safe and pull out a gun with functioning sights.
I consider an etched reticle to be the backup, for most purposes. Never got backup sights on any of my issued firearms and don't feel like a second sighting system is really useful. Also, for most purposes, a little practice with occluded aiming will get you remarkably close to practical accuracy even with a dot sight that's gone out.
Hmmmm kind of makes the A-frame front sight worth having done it? You could always keep a Magpul site or a Ruger pop-up site or one of those Daniel defense A1 rear sights to stick on your flat top there in case the optic dies or falls off out the helicopter door
I do not run backups because I have no space. My PovertyPony only has the pic rail on the receiver...so it's a Vortex with the big ole battery or nuthin else.
If you only need a firearm for recreational use you might not need backups. In any other situation I would never trust batteries with my life. Especially in SHTF situation or just plain war.
Had a perfectly good red dot on a cold night and had to enter a building where hot water pipes had been shot. The red dot immediately fogged over, rendering itself and the cowitnessed irons useless. Learned a lesson about offsets.
You would be shocked at how many engagements involve someone's optic taking a hit. Half the time, the round doesn't even make contact with them, it just annihilated the sight and peaced out....
My rifle came with iron sights and I put a scope with red dot on it. If they fail then I still got the iron sights. I would not have a rifle without iron sights on it. My scope has no co-op so it has to be removed to use the iron sights but it is a quick release mount so no problems.
I have several with back up sites and a few without,my guns with prism optics that have etched reticle I don’t bother plus prism sites usually need to be mounted farther back for eye relief anyway
Backup sights are also good for zeroing without ammo when you switch optics. As in, absolute cowitness everything, switch optics, and adjust the new optic to match the irons. This may not be good enough for precision work, but it will get you on paper and should be good enough for plinking and tactical classes.
I have shot in 3 gun competitions for many years in a wide variety of conditions. I do not recommend backup sights if you use a LPVO. I works regardless of illumination as you always have the black cross hairs and it works at both short and long distances. Save your money on both the red dot and iron sights and go with a good quality LPVO like a Trijicon.
I served in the army when I was a kid. When I was in, we only had iron sights. Now, I'm not in the army. I'm okay with not having back up irons. I even went so far as to cut the sight post off the gas block to make way for a dedicated ACOG on an AR. I don't use it for combat.
I was told if your red dot goes down, for what ever reason, batteries dead or happens to break, switch to your iron sights. My personal favorite is expect it to fail and have switch to something else.
Tier one units don’t use backup irons…and most other people don’t either. It’s usually just old people and those who haven’t received proper training in the last 10 yrs
Hell, I still use the Carry handle and FSP but I LOVE the gooseneck mount lower one third cow-witness with my Meprolight M21. That set up is the bees knees.
There's a good ol saying, "It's better to have it and not need it than need them and not have them."
You beat me to it.
And it does seem to have been something to do with guns I just can’t remember how.
Ounces equal pounds and pounds equal pain.
the whole philosophy behind a self defense tool. baffling this is even considered.
@@M81_WOODLAND only if you’re a fat fck. Grammar on the other hand might be good for the other guy
Better to have it and not need it
Then need it & not have it
My thoughts exactly.
It’s the whole point in having a firearm (for self defense at least), why not apply it to the sights too?
@@ETHRON1 Mine too. They don't cost all that much, they add a tiny amount of weight, and they're not in the way.
100%
This was driven home to me in Afghanistan during Operation Anaconda. I had a poor trooper from the 101st come up to me and ask if I had seen an ACOG lying around anywhere. He was about to hop on a helicopter and head back downrange and at some point his sight got loose and went missing. The poor guy was about to head into a full on battle with no sites. I will never have a defensive firearm without a set of irons just in case...
His NCO should have inspected his equipment. A $.10 piece of 550 cord could have prevented that problem.
How did he lose that, we always had all sights, peq2A, lights, Nods, etc... all had to be tied down, pretty sure was not just unit SOP either, and that was 20yrs+ ago
@DV8 *** EVERYONE did that when in!!
@DV8 *** We tied down everything. You can tie it down around the mount. Wire also works really well and takes up less space if you have it available.
@@RLBvkjf dummycording is SOP if I recall for nearly all line units. Even in BCT they make you dummycord your CCO. Im having a hard time believing the story that his SL didn't do anything about his ACOG missing and it not being dummycorded to begin with
There's a reason those sights fold down, you don't use them unless you're primary optic goes out
When your electronic sight fails, you better have them.
It's a great day when a smithbusters video drops!!
Most definitely
I agree, love theseguys
Pro tip, if you run a true co-witness height mount, you can go with a front sight only and use the Ring of your optic as a giant ghost ring if it gets broken or the battery dies. This works very well to about 50 yards.
That's how I have my SBR setup. With the RDS mounted as far forward on the receiver as possible, the ghost ring effect isn't much dissimilar as an A2 rear sight with the 0-2 aperture ring right up against your eye.
probably more than 50 yards lol
I believe Luck Gunner did a video were his red dot was drifting around because his emitter had come loose. With co-witness sights one can notice this more quickly than he was able to. This is also useful if your sight has come loose on its mounts. Which more likely to happen (than a malfunction on a sight) especially if your sights are easily removable.
More importantly, do you need backup sideburns ?
so razor sharp you'd think they were done with a red dot
Angle mounted.....lol
Because he lost his chops in a losing battle against a razor...
Yes yes you do
"You've..cowitnessed..it?" 🤔
You guys kill me. 🤣
I never served, didn't hunt as a kid, and none of my friends were into guns. Needless to say, deciding that shooting sports, smithing/building was gonna be my new hobby, was a little intimidating.
Your videos have proven to be invaluable, and I greatly appreciate the wealth of knowledge contained therein. Keep up the great work, guys!!!
When you create a weapon, it's owner's obligation to make it perfect and ready for action. It's like raising your child, you do your best to make them flawless.
Keltec left the chat...
Well said brother
@@Iceaxehikes😂😂😂
I like the primary arms micropism cause the reticle is etched thus no need for back up sights, but if your glass is screwed then you’re screwed.
I love the lower 1/3 co witness. I run an Eotech with a lower 1/3 mount in combination with fixed DD iron sights so I don’t have to flip up my sights if I need them in the heat of the moment, while also still getting the clear site picture when using the Eotech with the lower 1/3. Best of both worlds.
My dad pretty much instilled into me to have dual sights. He pretty much always had some form of backup site on his rifles. And he that was just hunting rifles. Even his old Remington 700 had dual sights. The scope mount was raised up and the rings have openings to look through. So, you could use both the scope and the iron sights with out having to change/remove anything.
I like my prism optic…it has an etched reticle. I do however have iron sights as well.
I think absolute cowitness makes good sense when we're talking about flip up sights. If the sights are fixed, on the other hand, cowitness ruins the advantage of a dot optic for me which is mainly a less cluttered sight picture.
It's always special when Caleb presents
I use full cowitness. The rear peep sight helps people with astigmatism focus the dot. So if you don’t have your glasses on you get a better sight picture.
Yeo same here
The answer to this question is simple. You can only rock back up sights if you have a qd mount or a high optic. I mount at 1.93 with my unity mount and can see my sights fully thought the middle of my mount.
Smyth Busters is the best channel on TH-cam. Thank you
All of my ARs, whether range guns, defensive, duty rifles when I was an LEO and my hunting guns all have a set of BUIS. At one of my previous jobs we were issued Bushmasters with the old AA EoTech on a GG&G extended rail riser to enable the attachment of our PVS-14's and it still had the front sight post, but no rear BUIS. We constantly had batteries going dead but the higher ups refused to just replace them on a schedule. they told us in an emergency you could use the EoTech as a large "ghost ring" sight if you needed it before a supervisor could get there with fresh batteries. Too bad the EoTech was on the riser so you would be shooting 20 feet above their heads at 50 yards!
I was just pondering this question yesterday and here you guys are. No need to thank me anyone
On my CQB defense gun, I have back-up sights that are not co-witnessed. However the optic is on a quick detach mount so it can be jettisoned if it has any issues.
I always, always run BUIS and lights on everything. Even range toys have the potential to be a defensive weapon. In the heat of the moment (also a great song), so many things can happen and you grab what is convenient. All my firearms, even my little one’s 10/22, is put through the ringer to make sure they can fill any role at any time. That’s probably just my neurosis kicking in though.
In any tactical situation, redundancy is necessary; always have a backup, and if possible, a backup to your backup. Prepared for any situation 😎
Backups to my backups
My primary use of BUIS is for inclement weather. I live in the upper Midwest and like to shoot outdoors year-round. When shooting in below freezing temperatures lenses often fog and freeze/frost over or get snowed on. In the rain a red dot can be slower than irons depending on the optic design and how hard it's raining. For this reason, my primary focus is on having offset irons I can use without adjusting my primary optics. If I can mount an optic high enough to see irons under it like on a carry handle (master mount on AKs) or a unity style mount that is my preference. Elcans can be nice for this since they were designed with arctic considerations from my understanding, and the ACOG that has top mounted irons is useful too. If that is not an option, or practical on a build I will settle on 45-degree offset BUIS.
It's better to have and not need than to need and not have.
Engagement distance is the factor to decide whether and which about optics
For my 18" upper with a 1-8 LPVO I have 30 degree offset irons. For my red dot pistol, I don't have backup sights.
I have a HS-507C backed up by a viridian green laser on my HD AR. No irons. I also keep a spare battery for both Optics and my pistol grip storage compartment along with the wrenches to install them.
On a range toy no need.
Several years back I was shooting in a local 3-gun match. When my turn came to do the RO duties I happened to get to run this guy that worked for Barrett firearms, he always had the coolest new equipment. The course started at one position and then about a 50 yard run shooting targets along the way. The shooter was much faster than I but in the middle of the run he stops for a few seconds then takes off again. When we got to the end and I had him clear I asked him what he stopped to do. He told me that his Eotech had died mid run and he had to flip up his back up's. I told him that was a pretty quick change and he said that he had practiced that. I told him that didn't shine a good light on his primary sight. In the last year I have had a H407c on a Taurus 22 competition die in the safe. And a brand new Trijicon S R O die on a 9mm pistol after the first round. So yeah I would recommend some form of back up sights.
For some of us iron sights are almost useless. Personally, I have to make the rear sight opening so small that it severely restricts the light passing through. So I use heavy prism sights combined with red dots.
I had some sort of a brief malfunction with my red dot at the range, luckily I had my backup sights ready to flip up and get back on target.
I like an absolute co-witness. For me it's an either, or operation. I don't use my red dot and backup sights at the same time. If my red dot goes down I just turn it off and pop up my backups. Later if I replace my red dot I can use my backup sights to initially zero the new red dot. It works for me. Another benefit is I will buy a budget optic with features to decide whether or not I want to get a better optic with that feature. For instance, I bought a NC Star because it has a three color dot. Red, green and blue, I find that the green and blue dots don't Starburst as bad with my astigmatism. So now I am researching better optic options with multiple color dots and will try to find a local shop that may have one I can demo.
ALL of my AR's have backup sights. It's just too easy to have them, and no negatives. I have Holosuns (the "military" models with QD mounts) which are very reliable and very long battery operation. Still, something can go wrong, rain on the lenses, broken lens from a blow. I can always flip up the MBUS sights and even see through the red dot, or remove the red dot altogether. The height of the Holosun gives "lower 1/3 cowitness", but the MBUS, if sighted in, will be right with the dot. In fact, you can sight in the red dot, flip of the MBUS, adjust those to cowitness with the red dot, and they will be right on or very close, needing only a click or so adjustment after that. I have a few rifles with 1-4x scopes, but those have QD bases, so they can be removed quickly and the MBUS sights flipped up. I just can't think of a reason to not have the MBUS or other backup sights on the rifle.
I have back up sights for no particular reason. I use the Vortex units on my ARs that have a laser etched reticle, so in the event of battery failure, I got something to work with.
That cowitness dad joke got a genuine guffaw out of me lol
Two is one and one is none.
I use offset on my ar, I don't like the clutter of co witness, and never need to worry about the need to flip up my sights if I need them. Offset also works with magnified sights as the don't interact with each other.
BUIS with prism, piggyback red dot, off set BUIS, and then offset red dot. Just cover all your bases.
Bristling with sights!
I flip the front site backward on shorter barrel lengths to get top railstuff further forward ..and just a smidgen longer site radius ..the post lays just past the handguard..
Lower 1/3 if you have fixed would be my choice. Since I run only popup BUS they co-witness so my head, check well, etc doesn't change when presenting/looking down sites.
I disagree to some extent. There are plenty of optics out there now that have battery life beyond any length of time you would need. The Holosun optics have solar panels and work with no battery at all, and pretty well. Sure if you are going into a combat zone where you are not able to leave or be supplied for a while it would be good to have backup sights, but it doesnt specficially mean they have to be on the gun they could be in a spare pouch. It depends on their size and I find them to add clutter and snag points at times. For most civilian use they probably aren't ever going to be used, you can use the red dot tube as a makeshift peep sight with just a front sight and even possibly without it, or aim down the rail, your gun will still function to get you out of there in a defensive situation. If you are that worried about the optic being ripped off the gun then just run irons only to begin with, or practice more with no sights to get a feel for it. In the days of today with the tech we have I don't think they particularly need to be on the gun. A nice to have, sure, if you feel more comfortable that way then sure and if you like how that looks on the gun and doesn't add any extra weight or annoyance, some sleek small flip up sights might work. But some of the big beefy fixed sights and co-witness seem to me as something that wont ever get used in normal defensive applications unless you don't maintain your gun and inspect its status every so often. InRangeTV had some good points on this during their WWSD concept videos which I think are good points to make. Such as if they go down during a match your scores are likely screwed anyway having to go to irons regardless. All the points about the dot coming loose and falling off or being knocked off or broken could still happen to the iron sights as well. And if they are co-witnessed without a QD mount then your irons are totally blocked anyway if the red dot gets covered in mud or paint or cracks on the glass. For bombproof optics with solar I don't see a need for it other than a warzone where you cannot resupply.
I have one rifle with absolute co-witness, one with lower 1/3.
Absolute is mission oriented to close distance (100-175ish yards), lower 1/3 is for longer distance (200-450 yards).
Short distance rifle has 0 magnification red dot with flip magnifier, long distance rifle has LPVO with FSP and etched reticle (and 45° offset red dot as additional back up).
Excellent presentation, thank you for your time posting this interesting information.
Offset vs. backup irons? I usually do the backup irons with red dots. I have an ACOG rifle with a 45 degree offset. Sometimes I'm tempted to go this route since canting the rifle is faster than flipping up a sight or two.
Education, Training, and Experience says Backup Sites are a must. Murphy Love's me so a backup to my backup is why my patrol vehicle has extra magazines and rounds for pistol, rifle, and shotgun. Everything has iron sights due to the Mk 1 Eyeball.
For everything needed and electronic, I think there should be a back-up, then there is glass which can get spotted (in rain) or fogged. As a former Infantry Marine, I only had iron sights '81-'85 and we shot in all conditions for the experience of knowing how to deal with them.
As for fun guns, I still like etched reticles so if the batt fails, or a malfunction occurs, it still works.
My go-to, has EOTech/G33 combo with flip-up Meprolight (Tritium at front post and four dots around rear peep sight) which work very good. I just flip the G33 out of the way, pop-up the back-ups and go to town, night or day.
I agree they are a "why not" kind of thing if you can cowitness with your optic without tools but i seen them on rifles with scopes with no qd mounts.
If buis are for a defensive rifle, and that rifle has a non qd scope mount with a lpvo, is there a point to having buis? If you cant get the rear sight up without tools, isnt the buis basically useless in a gun fight?
I’ve had my main optic go down and had to use backups. I’ll always have them.
The battery in my red dot died last week at USPSA and I learned that the Holosun solar panels are not entirely a gimmick. I did order batteries and put them in my range bag though.
I’ve used a solar holosun without a battery in it at all. Worked fine during the day.
Co-witness is great with folding sights just because if you need to deploy the irons the cheek weld doesn't change. Muscle memory. Especially important in a serious situation.
currently, I only have a indoor range of 25yds to shoot at, and can not justify the cost of scopes or these red dot sights... if my situation was to change, I'll adjust accordingly... but iron sights on a AR type rifle is all I know...the one thing I did invest in, was a standard carry handle that I am use too...other than that, its straight forward "peep and post" for my Colt...
I have a scope with an offset red dot, and no backup irons. If all my batteries die, I can still use the scope. Realistically, I will never be in a scenario where both optics are completely destroyed and unusable, so backup irons aren't practical. However, if I had a gun with just a red dot, I would put irons as well just in case.
For all of my combat/defensive burners I run BUIS. I have them co-witnessed with my optics. I run absolute because of my cheek bones. All of my rifles are set up the same way and I use a 36yd zero.
The galils and south African R4 and R5 had back up night sights with tritium, these are very, very handy.
On the worksheet 4999 ATF for braced pistols, putting back up sights is a no no.
From worksheet atf 4999. The final rule could come down next month.
Presence of Rifle-type Back-up / Flip-up Sights / Or no sights 1 point
Presence of Reflex Sight with FTS Magnifier w/ Limited Eye-Relief 2 points
Presence of a Sight/Scope with Eye Relief Incompatible with one-handed fire 4 points = SBR
I have backup sights... I just like the redundancy.
Do I need them, no I don't think I need them... I just want them.
I would say Steve's shirt looks better today but I generally take points off for button-down collars.
Gotta give Caleb the win.
I have the Brownells Retro scope on the "carry handle" on a Stag 15 M4 carbine with the iron sites still on it. I then have a red dot reflex on a 45 degree offset for CQB. I set this up for anything but long range.
Went to the range. Forgot I took the batteries out of my EO Tech. Popped backup irons. Still had fun.
I set mine up for lower 1/3 for the same reason. Even better when you lay the front post down but it's nice to have a reference and a backup already there in your sight picture.
I have been flying to competitions for about 3 years now. The first 2 years I always had backup sights on my rifle. This year, my buddy had a very strange failure on his Aimpoint which ruined the whole competition for him. His aimpoint had shifted significantly. We still dont know why but we suspect that it happend somehow during the handling and transportation of the firearm during the flight (even though it has been in a very good hard case).
When traveling through any kind of luggage transition period where the firearm has to go through customs or whatever it may be.... ALWAYS witness mark your turrets and / or windage adjustment buttons/screws. Twice now I've had my firearms mucked with where whoever was storing my firearms thought it would be funny to twist my elevation and windage tabs.
@@TerminalM193 that's a very good advice. I will definitely do that next time I travel.
I am working on 2 AR builds. My AR15 will have backup sights to increase its utility and versatility. My AR10, 7x62x51/308, will only have a LPVO for intermediate range shooting and will not be meant for CQC and home defense.
I was thinking about this the other day, my scope does not have quick detach mounts so i would need to go home and get a tool to take it off to use my Back up sights. Where I could just reach in my gun safe and pull out a gun with functioning sights.
I consider an etched reticle to be the backup, for most purposes. Never got backup sights on any of my issued firearms and don't feel like a second sighting system is really useful.
Also, for most purposes, a little practice with occluded aiming will get you remarkably close to practical accuracy even with a dot sight that's gone out.
Hmmmm kind of makes the A-frame front sight worth having done it? You could always keep a Magpul site or a Ruger pop-up site or one of those Daniel defense A1 rear sights to stick on your flat top there in case the optic dies or falls off out the helicopter door
I do not run backups because I have no space. My PovertyPony only has the pic rail on the receiver...so it's a Vortex with the big ole battery or nuthin else.
What about a LPVO with an etched reticle, battery goes you still have an old-fashioned scope???
Have etched reticle and still have ofsets.
You do what you want.
If you only need a firearm for recreational use you might not need backups. In any other situation I would never trust batteries with my life. Especially in SHTF situation or just plain war.
Had a perfectly good red dot on a cold night and had to enter a building where hot water pipes had been shot. The red dot immediately fogged over, rendering itself and the cowitnessed irons useless. Learned a lesson about offsets.
Or a lesson about QD mounts
@@woffoj another option.
@@novicereloader2 is 1, 1 is none or something like that. Have a good st pattys day!
You would be shocked at how many engagements involve someone's optic taking a hit.
Half the time, the round doesn't even make contact with them, it just annihilated the sight and peaced out....
Dang. The more you know...
My rifle came with iron sights and I put a scope with red dot on it. If they fail then I still got the iron sights. I would not have a rifle without iron sights on it. My scope has no co-op so it has to be removed to use the iron sights but it is a quick release mount so no problems.
I have several with back up sites and a few without,my guns with prism optics that have etched reticle I don’t bother plus prism sites usually need to be mounted farther back for eye relief anyway
Like all things, it's mission dependent.
No it's not. There isn't one situation military personnel walk into where they wouldn't benefit from iron sights.
@@printingwithpeek4897 rifles are used in more situations than only by military personnel.
@@cmtptr When someone says mission dependent, they're referring to rough use.
You got it! Defensive, go-to-war guns all get backup sights. Range guns, plinkers is optional.
Putting the stop sign on top of the sign post, make the game fun.
Fixed or folding, all the important ones have something.
I really like these guys! They are part of my new gun watching rotation and im a new sub!
You could always get optics with etched reticle most of mine do so that would solve some of that
That doesn't matter. You can still have your glass break, and having iron sights that are machined instead of etched always are superior for backups.
Backup sights are also good for zeroing without ammo when you switch optics. As in, absolute cowitness everything, switch optics, and adjust the new optic to match the irons. This may not be good enough for precision work, but it will get you on paper and should be good enough for plinking and tactical classes.
With a cowitness optic your hold/check weld is the same. All your prior training is the same. It’s best that way nothing changes but the sight.
I have shot in 3 gun competitions for many years in a wide variety of conditions. I do not recommend backup sights if you use a LPVO. I works regardless of illumination as you always have the black cross hairs and it works at both short and long distances. Save your money on both the red dot and iron sights and go with a good quality LPVO like a Trijicon.
I served in the army when I was a kid. When I was in, we only had iron sights. Now, I'm not in the army. I'm okay with not having back up irons. I even went so far as to cut the sight post off the gas block to make way for a dedicated ACOG on an AR. I don't use it for combat.
What is that slick looking carbine in the front? I really like that upper.
Id like to see a Smyth buster episode addressing this:
Do you need ginormous ears to be on Smyth busters?
All you veterans, thank you for your service.
I was told if your red dot goes down, for what ever reason, batteries dead or happens to break, switch to your iron sights. My personal favorite is expect it to fail and have switch to something else.
Tier one units don’t use backup irons…and most other people don’t either. It’s usually just old people and those who haven’t received proper training in the last 10 yrs
A Aimpoint with a Front sight is useful. With the Aimpoint turned off it acts like a large Ghost Ring sight. If you don't believe it, try it.
And just leave the rear sight down of course makes it fun to shoot that way even for just practice !!!
Next Smythbusters idea: Do your backup sights need backup sights?
Laser?
I always try and have a set of backup irons. Never know when you might need them.
Great video guys! Information and fun. Always enjoy your videos
Imo yes, went to the range and for some reason my scope got loose. I didnt have back up irons. I bought some the next day
I mounted the MBUS 3 sights. They are low profile, and there just in case. Do whatever is best for you.
I have an Aimpoint t2 also Magpul pro backup sights.Its better to have backups than not have them if you need them.Its a small price to pay.
Topic suggestion: etched reticles. A whole lot of people misunderstand what they are and what they aren’t.
Hell, I still use the Carry handle and FSP but I LOVE the gooseneck mount lower one third cow-witness with my Meprolight M21. That set up is the bees knees.
I would love to hear steve and calab in a podcast just talking about random stuff 😊
Yes. Always backup sights