This is great information. We are three: 260lbs, 205lbs and 140lbs. Weight difference is always a factor for us. I like the munter clove setup, especially on nice belay ledges. Lets you move around pretty safely and get out of the fall zone for the next leader. Have you ever checked out the Edelrid OHM device? We use it on the first clip (sport) or a directional gear piece. It takes about 60 lbs of heat off of a fall and works like a champ! Also lets a lighter belayer safely lower off a heavy dude on top rope. Awesome device but it is expensive, it is HEAVY and it twists the hell out of the rope, so you gotta reflake every climb.
Yeah, OHM is definitely an option. On multipitch I find it super cumbersome though so tend to avoid it. Yeah, in my opinion the munter clove set-up is the best option in most cases.
Great info, thank you! Terrain dependent idea is if you have an piece of pro available below the belayer, set up to lead belay as normal, tie the belayer to that lower pro piece using a super munter. It won’t catch the belayer, but it will add a lot of resistance in the event of a lead fall that pulls up the belayer.
In the first scenario why could you not use a grigri to belay directly off the anchor, clipped into the same spot? Similarly, in the second scenario, could you belay off that master point, rather than yourself? Today I was belaying in the gym and my partner fell not far above his last clip. There was very little slack in the system, he was high off the ground, and still ended up lower than me, and I was pulled up into the first draw. I had my hands back from the grigri (and a firm hold on the brake stand in case the grigri got caught in a way that it was no longer locked). But now I know that it would likely not be safe for me to belay him if he took any large fall unless I'm belaying him direct off an anchor, or I'm direct in to something if I'm belaying off myself. I've learned a lot from your videos, thanks for the information!
Thanks for checking out the content, glad you are finding it helpful. You really can't use a gri gri on the first method because the force during the fall could be up or down depending on if the climber gets something clipped in... and it doesn't blow when they fall. So you don't know if the gri gri will be pulled down like when belaying someone from below OR be pulled up (and potentially not work) so you can't arrange it properly to cam in the case of a fall. There is a method you can use an ATC which I did not cover because I really don't like it. But there are videos out there for it. My preferred method though is the second one as you can now use the gri gri AND absorb the shock of the fall, give it a try!
Another reason you don't want to belay with an auto assist device is that in this set up you need some play in the rope. It's been shown that with an assisted breaking device it will actually shear the rope, which is obviously a bad thing.
The fixed point belay you show is a great idea for belays where you don't want the belayer to fly up, say if the belay is in a small cave or under a roof. The way you show it setup, however, is quite different from what's discussed elsewhere as the standard. Figure 8 knots are not the best choice for ring-loading like this, generally the bowline on a bight is used. I also highly encourage using a locker on the loop that you do the FPLB off, and also to connect the anchor loop as high on the bolt/chain that you can so the whole system moves less before catching a lead fall.
Dyneema slings are rated for like 20 kN and a knot will roughly cut that in half so it's rated for 10 kN. Doing the math that's still roughly 2,000 lbs. Here's a video that practically gathers that data: th-cam.com/video/NwbMfh4FqT4/w-d-xo.html The only practical concern with this in mind is a Factor 2 fall uninhibited. Based on distances, it's hard to know if you could exceed 2000 lbs of force on a factor 2 fall given all the different scenarios, but if you start getting up to 2000 lbs of force you will be challenging many items in the system (ropes are only rated for like 8-10 kN, same with cams, etc... and your body. If you see a factor 2 fall likely, I'd recommend going with the second solution I showed which basically just increases the rope length to reduce the fall factor.
There is a more simple way of an effective fixed point belay (bolted anchors) used in germany, where you just use some biners and your rope and connect the bolts in a series connection instead of equalizing them. For when when you got absolutly bomber bolts.
How would I dynamic/soft belay a climber who is twice my body weight? Both SP and MP; 5'8" 130lbs against 6'4" 260lbs. I assume going with a extended anchor, but beyond that, I'm uncertain.
You should look into purchasing an Ohm. Additionally, you should have a ground anchor that will catch you after you go up a little ways. Connect a cam or two at your waiste or lower and attach it to your belay loop with a sling that will catch before you start pulling on the actual anchor where your masterpoint is. This will allow your weight to slow the fall but ultimately catch you. Note that there is some inherent risk with this amount of weight discrepancy.
@@summitseekersexperience I had a few concerns around the Ohm and using a ground anchor, primarily in regard to the forces applied to the climber. Mostly from the data from a "HowNot2" video with a 300lb climber. So I contacted the Technical Director of AMGA about this question. His response was: *For multipitch* the answer is fairly easy in that you should research fixed point lead belay. When using with a munter hitch the peak loads for the climber are not too high. For this belay set up you belay directly off the anchor so the belayer is not as affected with the violent upward pull. *For cragging*... use a weight bag that even’s out the difference just a bit. You don’t have to go overboard and if you can get the weight difference in the 50lb range it works very well. The belayer has to be aware of the bag and what happens with it during a fall but that is ok with a little practice. Make sure it’s attached to the belay loop and nowhere else on the harness. Thought you might be interested.🙂
If the belayer is concerned with not being able to hold the brake strand, extra friction can be added to the system right? Two ideas that I see are: Using a Monster Munter (Double Munter, Mega Munter). Running the brake strand through a remote tuber or eight on low friction mode. Maybe have that clipped to the master point or to the harness. Besides needing to escape the belay on the second idea, if there is an issue, do you foresee problems with those? I know one of the issues with the Monster Munter is the amount of rope it takes to flip and that it’s high friction, even without tension on the brake strand, so that might be enough to disqualify its use here.
Love your channel, looking forward to more!
For sure!!!
This is great information.
We are three: 260lbs, 205lbs and 140lbs. Weight difference is always a factor for us.
I like the munter clove setup, especially on nice belay ledges. Lets you move around pretty safely and get out of the fall zone for the next leader.
Have you ever checked out the Edelrid OHM device? We use it on the first clip (sport) or a directional gear piece. It takes about 60 lbs of heat off of a fall and works like a champ!
Also lets a lighter belayer safely lower off a heavy dude on top rope. Awesome device but it is expensive, it is HEAVY and it twists the hell out of the rope, so you gotta reflake every climb.
Yeah, OHM is definitely an option. On multipitch I find it super cumbersome though so tend to avoid it. Yeah, in my opinion the munter clove set-up is the best option in most cases.
Great info, thank you! Terrain dependent idea is if you have an piece of pro available below the belayer, set up to lead belay as normal, tie the belayer to that lower pro piece using a super munter. It won’t catch the belayer, but it will add a lot of resistance in the event of a lead fall that pulls up the belayer.
for sure, good add!
In the first scenario why could you not use a grigri to belay directly off the anchor, clipped into the same spot? Similarly, in the second scenario, could you belay off that master point, rather than yourself? Today I was belaying in the gym and my partner fell not far above his last clip. There was very little slack in the system, he was high off the ground, and still ended up lower than me, and I was pulled up into the first draw. I had my hands back from the grigri (and a firm hold on the brake stand in case the grigri got caught in a way that it was no longer locked). But now I know that it would likely not be safe for me to belay him if he took any large fall unless I'm belaying him direct off an anchor, or I'm direct in to something if I'm belaying off myself. I've learned a lot from your videos, thanks for the information!
Thanks for checking out the content, glad you are finding it helpful. You really can't use a gri gri on the first method because the force during the fall could be up or down depending on if the climber gets something clipped in... and it doesn't blow when they fall. So you don't know if the gri gri will be pulled down like when belaying someone from below OR be pulled up (and potentially not work) so you can't arrange it properly to cam in the case of a fall. There is a method you can use an ATC which I did not cover because I really don't like it. But there are videos out there for it. My preferred method though is the second one as you can now use the gri gri AND absorb the shock of the fall, give it a try!
@@summitseekersexperience Ahh that makes sense! Thanks, I'll try out the second method!
Another reason you don't want to belay with an auto assist device is that in this set up you need some play in the rope. It's been shown that with an assisted breaking device it will actually shear the rope, which is obviously a bad thing.
The fixed point belay you show is a great idea for belays where you don't want the belayer to fly up, say if the belay is in a small cave or under a roof. The way you show it setup, however, is quite different from what's discussed elsewhere as the standard. Figure 8 knots are not the best choice for ring-loading like this, generally the bowline on a bight is used. I also highly encourage using a locker on the loop that you do the FPLB off, and also to connect the anchor loop as high on the bolt/chain that you can so the whole system moves less before catching a lead fall.
I've learned that adding a knot to dyneema will reduce the force it can handle. Would this affect the setup? Would it matter in this case?
Dyneema slings are rated for like 20 kN and a knot will roughly cut that in half so it's rated for 10 kN. Doing the math that's still roughly 2,000 lbs. Here's a video that practically gathers that data:
th-cam.com/video/NwbMfh4FqT4/w-d-xo.html
The only practical concern with this in mind is a Factor 2 fall uninhibited. Based on distances, it's hard to know if you could exceed 2000 lbs of force on a factor 2 fall given all the different scenarios, but if you start getting up to 2000 lbs of force you will be challenging many items in the system (ropes are only rated for like 8-10 kN, same with cams, etc... and your body.
If you see a factor 2 fall likely, I'd recommend going with the second solution I showed which basically just increases the rope length to reduce the fall factor.
@@summitseekersexperience wow, thank you for the detailed reply!!
@@reidsadventures For sure!
How do you setup for the start of a climb when there are no trees nearby when you’re just with children
There is a more simple way of an effective fixed point belay (bolted anchors) used in germany, where you just use some biners and your rope and connect the bolts in a series connection instead of equalizing them. For when when you got absolutly bomber bolts.
Yeah, I've seen that method, I may redo this video and highlight that method.
How would I dynamic/soft belay a climber who is twice my body weight? Both SP and MP; 5'8" 130lbs against 6'4" 260lbs. I assume going with a extended anchor, but beyond that, I'm uncertain.
You should look into purchasing an Ohm. Additionally, you should have a ground anchor that will catch you after you go up a little ways. Connect a cam or two at your waiste or lower and attach it to your belay loop with a sling that will catch before you start pulling on the actual anchor where your masterpoint is. This will allow your weight to slow the fall but ultimately catch you. Note that there is some inherent risk with this amount of weight discrepancy.
@@summitseekersexperience Thanks for your reply 😊. I'll grab an Ohm before we head out next! Your explanation is helpful
@@summitseekersexperience I had a few concerns around the Ohm and using a ground anchor, primarily in regard to the forces applied to the climber. Mostly from the data from a "HowNot2" video with a 300lb climber. So I contacted the Technical Director of AMGA about this question. His response was:
*For multipitch* the answer is fairly easy in that you should research fixed point lead belay. When using with a munter hitch the peak loads for the climber are not too high. For this belay set up you belay directly off the anchor so the belayer is not as affected with the violent upward pull.
*For cragging*... use a weight bag that even’s out the difference just a bit. You don’t have to go overboard and if you can get the weight difference in the 50lb range it works very well. The belayer has to be aware of the bag and what happens with it during a fall but that is ok with a little practice. Make sure it’s attached to the belay loop and nowhere else on the harness.
Thought you might be interested.🙂
I ❤ed VBS also! Cheers!
Lol
If the belayer is concerned with not being able to hold the brake strand, extra friction can be added to the system right?
Two ideas that I see are:
Using a Monster Munter (Double Munter, Mega Munter).
Running the brake strand through a remote tuber or eight on low friction mode. Maybe have that clipped to the master point or to the harness.
Besides needing to escape the belay on the second idea, if there is an issue, do you foresee problems with those?
I know one of the issues with the Monster Munter is the amount of rope it takes to flip and that it’s high friction, even without tension on the brake strand, so that might be enough to disqualify its use here.