Theodore Roszak, 1933-2011 - Cult of Information (complete) - Thinking Allowed w/ Jeffrey Mishlove
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This program is being posted in its entirety to honor the memory of Theodore Roszak, who passed away on July 5, 2011.
Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge?
Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?
--T.S. Elliott
Our real educational and cultural needs are in danger of becoming lost in the erroneous fascination with the information processing model of the mind. One of America's foremost social critics, Theodore Roszak, Ph.D., author of The Making of the Counter-Culture, Eco-Psychology and The Cult of Information, delivers a scathing indictment of the over-selling of computer and high-tech ideology to the American public. - วิทยาศาสตร์และเทคโนโลยี
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The program was recorded November 19, 1986 -- our first year.
The distinctions that late Dr. Roszak is making are the bedrocks to build upon.
This is pure literacy.
Astonishing. Ever more vital, with every passing year. Thank you Mr. Mishlove.
this conversation was so ahead of it's time for most of the population ,in matter of fact still comtemporary!
Yeah this is timeless, seems more important today since widespread adoption of internet
@@hud86 At the end he even starts talking about AI, what a visionary.
Published in Italy in '72, read his 'counterculture', read it over and over again... incredible that he seemed to me to be the only one in the world to understand most of the social unrest (it had such a influence on my young mind that three months later i left home, not to go away, just to have my rights recognized in my family; anyway, his extraordinary book changed my life, i still can remember many of his sentences).
To distinguish information and experience. I am a 22 year old who gave myself epilepsy from a self induced TBI. I lost so much memory/information of best friendships, romance and comedy, but in what I lost I earned myself an experience that made me more experienced to approach the world. I wish I could take it back, but it really shows u the matrix we live in and how language defines and manipulates idea like sophistry. Love you all
Great interview, thanks God we still have such good recording about real thoughts.
Read in the early 80's Roszak's 'The Making of a Counter Culture'...and this prescient 1986 interview speaks volumes.
Imagination can take one further than information. Theodore was a visionary.
What a thrill to find this! I imagined Dr Roszak a bearded elder when I read his brilliant "Where The Wasteland Ends" all those years ago (1973), inveighing, with Blake, against "single vision & Newton's sleep". I'm going to dig the book out and get inspired again. How we need it in these shallow vulgar opportunist Nero-Lib times! 🌈🦉(And, how right he was to foresee the confusing of "information" as in AI, with knowledge in humankind. So eloquent & wise,, so sad he's now gone from us.)
"The mind is vastly larger than its information processing level." (at 18 min 36 sec) This was one of the key insights I took from this interview.
What a beautiful mind and illuminating talk!
My paradox is without this information I would not be looking back in time and watching this awesome discussion....
+Neale Fitzpatrick Wha?? He didn't say information should be ignored!
THIS is not Information. It is a presentation or representation of ideas.
Why don't anybody watching this videos. You cannot get this in schools collages or classes. We are getting here for free, even though there are very few who are watching. I appreciate those people who are watching, listening and understanding also what one is saying. And also appreciating the content.
Amazing conversation, what a brilliant mind he was, Theodore Roszak.
teaching is so often directed at following rather than discovering.
So true. 18th Century industrial, machine learning. The best teachers are those that provide good information, but also teach a people to think rationally for themselves.
I say this to my wife and she calls me a conspiracy theorist. I grew up with old people and was taught the value of wisdom and tradition. She says she can't argue with me because I use "logical fallacies", anecdotal information, to support my ideas. If she can't read it online she doubts it's real. The internet seems like the biggest mind control tool ever invented. Remember what the radio did to germans in the 1930's
Completely agree with Theodore's sentiments. Excellent discussion!
Love listening to people that have something interesting to say
Theodore Roszak is such a wise and eloquent person. We are swimming in information and data but you wonder if all this information overload doesn't just lead to a kind of analysis paralysis where coupled with our self-reflective machine algorithms we think ourselves to death.
that's not THINKING, which is his point...
So frightening, Mr. Roszak is touching up on what we are experiencing today. Thank you, sir. RIP Theodore
Wow. These IDEAS have got me thinking differently already! Thanks for the upload :-)
This was good, really superb
i like the interviewer
"Where is the wisdom we have lost in
knowledge?
Where is the knowledge we have lost in
information?"
--T.S. Eliot
Im buying his book!!!
never has this important talk about the cult of information been more relevant as in this era of Fake News.
Excellent video.
Damn, would've loved to hear so much more from this fascinating woman, who's apparently since left us. Though fortunately now in the age of the interwebs I can seek out more of her... thank you for the 'discovery'!
''when you control the mail, you control....information! '' : newman
computers have data, people have ideas.
this is why we should encourage our children to be creative and play with their ideas.
algorithms are only a fragment of all the entire complex process of thinking. in other words, the art of thinking vastly trancends the programmed mind of artificial intelligence, a by-product of it.
and now i'm quoting because it's just too good: "how much of anybody's mind can indeed be encompassed by, mimicked by, matched by the operations of a computer?'
...
"in the field of education i would simply plunk for a curricullum that was a little more traditional, that stayed closer to old-fashioned forms of literacy and sought to put children as gracefully and as early in touch with the great ideas on which their culture is based. Ask them to probe those ideas, discuss those ideas, compare them with one another and reach personal judgments about the great ideas of the culture they live in. I don't see that computers have any role whatsoever to play in that. What you need are teachers, sensitive teachers, great books, great art, great science. All of these things play a role in teaching children how to cope with the richness of the ideas they inherit out of their tradition".
Wow, very good talk...liked his IDEA (and yes its one) of how much ideas and information and not only information matters
What an insightful and thought provoknig interview...what a pity we cannot yet bottle some of the amazing minds who come into this world and give each of us a drop now and then. I suppose like everything scientific this little idea of mine could be used both for good and evil....information is only as good as the giver of the infomation and the receiver. We each perceive "stuff" in different ways anyway. Who decides what is good anyway. One person's culture is another's anathema.
Amazing thinker. Very VERY relevant for the current world situation
Great video. Right in the spot about the industrialization of information and education paradigms. Way ahead of its time which can be attributed to his knowledge, intelligence and psychosis. Admirable way of expressing his thoughts. By the way Dr. Roszak was acting like if he wanted people to know that he was on coke there. Loved the video.
Great elaboration
Techies an Developers might wanna listen to this.
There is already a related (though with different focus) long and well-established field actually called Ecological Psychology,
that is largely due to the insights of James J. Gibson (eg, 1979 book -
"The ecological approach to visual perception") - that extends back to
his work in the 60s on perception and action. It focuses on perception
and how animals are RECIPROCAL to their environments and the old
dualism of mind and body is wrong-headed, but it is the best way to
address knowledge from within academic perceptual theory (yet remains a
minority perspective). More clips to be found on my channel.
Roszak plays a crucial role in how we might extend Gibson's scientific, experimental psychology approach. It is complementary and important.
First class thinking.
Such genius!
Reduction is incredibly powerful logic that helps cognitively narrow the scope of reasoning for effective processing. The error lies in assuming that one knows what something ontologically truly *is*, by simply applying a model of reality. One can reduce things to information, ideas, spirit or matter -- these are all idealistic interpretations.
Computational metaphors of mind are incredibly useful for a reason, and computers practically sold themselves. Computers are like any other tool created by humanity, and anything bad or good is a reflection of how we use and create them.
Check out the documentary called 'Manufacturing Consent' based on the book by Noam Chomsky. You can find it on TH-cam. Very similar ideas and parallels to this interview
This is all entirely dependent on how one defines “information” which is far too vague to pin down with ‘anti-information’ maxims.
Bestess video i love to share 😊
People still sleeping on Jeffrey Mishlove🧐
how long more are we going to wait before you show them all as full shows? lol ;)
We have replaced vision with information, and in so doing, obliterated vision.
He seems to describing a diminished expectation for what we call "being human"..merely information processers....
the ego doesn't want to see anything greater than itself, any machine greater than its machines.
In the 18th century, man was proud of his watch mechanisms, so God was a watchmaker. Now we are proud of our computers, so God is a programmer.
exactly. was just thinking this about the simulation theory, how it's such a hollow obvious techno cult that seems to think itself more grand in its scope of a decade of mesmerism than ten thousand years of refined wisdom
"Pride goeth before destruction, And a haughty spirit before a fall. Better it is to be of a lowly spirit with the poor, Than to divide the spoil with the proud." Proverbs 16: 18-19
.... but some are more equal than others !
❤❤❤
another interesting debate.
i often wonder how the world would look today had the computer not been invented.
Peace.
“DATA” now is the new “Information”... more salient than ever in 2020!!
very few would remember the statue the thinker nor mr ed the horse series.
when was this talk happened?
He said there’s no “information” in the phrase “All men are created equal” … Is there any information in 1+1=2 ?? Am I off here? Isn’t there information in both of those statements? One is more general than the other but both statements are identical in the abstract and both are information right? 1=1 is information right? Because 1 what is equal to 1 of what? In the abstract, 1 = 1 … but one cat does not equal 1 dog… so as the context gathers more distinction, the less true 1=1 becomes.
In the general sense all men should be treated the same in each context until you start adding more distinction… One guy steals a candy bar from a store, the punishment is the same as any other man who steals a candy bar… Until that same guy steals another candy bar…. so as you add more distinction to the context, doesn’t it change? However, the general sense of “all men are created equal” is an idea that holds a lot of information. I think this guy is saying logic is not information and I disagree.
Fuck me....... I wonder how many times his book mentions 'ideas'
This show used too be on PBS 1980's.
Phenomenon transitory illusionary and beyond our control....
The treacherous sea of words created by the Canninites and Phoenicians
The phony phoeneticians of phoenicia
In-form-ation formulae are process and processions? Not only coherent objectives that appear to be objects/things. Values are higher order composites.., of style and content.
This universe is definitely a self-defining modulation program spectra of Quantum Fields Modulation Mechanism "Computing", so it's the correct mental model of the culture, modified from cultish digital to quantum analog since the 1950s.
Philosophy of qualitative reasoning is unavoidably abstract detail-contents without the cause-effect cohesion and coordination modulation of Time Timing quantization.
The research required to attempt Artificial Intelligence will coordinate and align real values of the perceptions and labels in terms of overall principle.
@David Wilkie: blablabla
If you're still waiting for The Singularity, watch this! 😉
@Garrettthief
Rest in peace
Existantialism is humanism
Well, nothing's changed much
He fell into a loop of b/g ideas. Is that an pessimistic idea, that earth is a cut-throat competition for quite large part of we called universe?
A.i. has been achieved but that line of tech will never be unleashed in the public forum unless to destroy it.But the cash never stops no one gets that funding unless they are making it back 100 times over selling it as weapon systems.
next week my kids cars are going to drive themselves. a fully developed human mind is one who has the body to plant corn seeds or sunflowers
The strategic defence mechanism is so wrong . Jidu krishnamurti spoke of this
how do you translate pedicogical to every language?
bty living this close sitting thing.
bury our heads in the sand. a few good people.
Pearl.
Data isn't Knowledge isn't Wisdom.
Who said that ?
not greatly heeded it seems , this warning
Truth...
10:24 The inaccurate, imperfect, and sometimes highly pervasive modes of unfair and sometimes seemingly delusional social interactions that people demonstrate are often fueled by fulfilling a role that does not necessitate much beyond the incentives which motivated them and allowed them to embody and become part of that social niche. For instance, pretty much nobody who stalks a target is going to think "I am wrong for doing this", nor are they going to lack the motivation to engage in that stalking. Those criteria are representative of what allows social dysfunctions to promulgate with large scale groups of people (ie political groups like countries, religions, or any perceived in-group role). However, many times these dysfunctions are perpetrated under the bizarre belief that it is some sort of necessary evil. These kinds of actions seem to be shrouded in some sort of participation mystique which does not permit the elucidation, fixing, or bettering of the flawed social interactions. I guess that is nearly always the case with people who are in positions of dominant exploitation. Normal legal processes, professional process, and individual standards get thrown by the way for a feeling of social significance, causing individual traits to be diverted into group oriented controls. Ethnocentric? No. Just unconsciously ethnocentric.
Note: he said "there's one god and Allah is his prophet" , that's wrong. the correct sentence is "there's one god and Mohammad is his prophet (among other prophets like Jesus for example)" , Allah means god in Arabic
Obviously a mistake, I'm sure he knows this full well. :)
thats fully irrelevant
did you see a blooming sunflower today?
I saw a guy make sunflower candy on youtube. Does that count?
here here develop opport i nities for students to discover.
learn it on land. yes we create it by over talking big data.
Sandwich breath
bytes
The interviewer - prods & detours but lacks ‘warmth’ - which is needed here. Cold
human evaluation, is a idea,,, relativity is a idea,, most think are facts. 99% of all science if proven wrong to make way for new science.
DANTHETUBEMAN I think your percentages are made up. 99% of all science has not been proven wrong. Science is constantly building off of previous revelations but that doesn't mean the original science was wrong. It means that most science is incomplete, like a puzzle, and more pieces are added each generation to create a more complete picture. To say that 99% of science is flat out wrong is just a false statement. In contrast, religion is largely given a pass even though there are no facts ever provided to support its claims. We are just supposed to fill the gaps with faith and accept it. For some reason, science isnt given the same treatment in society. In some ways, im glad science is held to a higher standard, but it is hypocritical to say that science should be disregarded because it turns out to be wrong every now and then while at the same time you are shamed if you try to point out that religion is a ridiculous thing to accept because it is so lacking in facts and reason.
ABC 123
This guy has no clue to the level of AI and the Singularity that has been put into place.
yes even the ideas of the master is wrong there is only one teacher and the teacher is found by natural ontrospective analysis. bread? rice? water?.
here is a fact. you can take from me something i do not own. its simple
pedicogical?
resciprocity yes. in other words dont fall for fake news . learn every language Jiddu Krisnsmurti spoke about the computer
Kind of looks like two gay dudes flirting? Seriously though, in 2021, information from the Internet is GOD, ignites the imagination and creates reality, while it should be the other way around. “Imagination is more important than knowledge.” Albert Einstein