TABLE OF CONTENTS 00:00 - Buffer Conversation Overview 02:42 - Are Boss Buffers Sufficient? 06:16 - Brian Wampler's Buffered vs. True Bypass Test (th-cam.com/video/-oxBlWmeGE0/w-d-xo.html) 10:30 - Differences between an Input Buffer, Output Buffer, And The Role Of Impedance 18:40 - Bad Buffers In Disguise 25:03 - Pedals With Good Quality Built-In Buffers 33:35 - Pedals That Aren't Buffered Or True Bypass 36:37 - Stinkfoot Mods To Vintage SPDT Switches 37:47 - Pedals That Don't Work After A Buffer 38:55 - What Is A "Fuzz Friendly" Wah Or "Buffered" Wah? 42:15 - Un-Buffer 43:00 - Fuzzes That Work With Buffered Signals 44:05 - Buffers And Active Pickups 53:19 - Testing The Quality Of Your True Bypass Pedal 55:35 - Pedalboard Building Strategy For Low Noise *NOTE* From 35:13 - 40:21 there is some glitchy video, however the audio quality is not impacted.
I've watched ALL of Dr. Marangella videos. This channel is the single best A-Z source for understanding what really goes into pedals/pedalboards. Much more content/informative when Mason flies solo. At the risk of alienating many of you out there, this video was a relief. I didn't have to fast forward through the other two being "curious" or "you wanna take this one Mason". I understand Brian Omilion has a couple of famous client's, but my god his lack of knowledge is stunning.
Thanks for watching. We all bring a unique perspective to the table, normally I wouldn't fly solo but the conditions required it for this week. Looking forward to having Brian and Grant back next week!
Thank you Mason an awesome solo run. It was another advanced session on buffers, a real on going clarity seminar and compliment to your existing videos on the subject. I've enjoyed learning about the importance of a quality signal path and setting up a proper rig, awesome. There are but a handful of quality, generous and knowledgeable individuals out there available to us internet guitar rookies and aspiring tone snobs, I wish you the best ongoing success and MaxRespect! Fan and customer for life!
Excellent 1 hour video of fantastic useful information Mason! I got a year ago the Mesa Boggie high wire dual buffer following your advice and it was the best decision i ever did in terms of pedalboard tone improve and also low noise solution. Thanks for always helping us!!!
Wahzon, Wahzoff! LOL >> 40:40 There's one thing us seasoned pros know that nobody has pointed out. Some guitars just love high Z. In one word, Hendrix. I embrace the noise. hehehe. Great work man
Thanks for this video. Very informative! I have recently added a Digitech Ricochet as first in chain, mostly for its buffered bypass. It's not the ideal buffer - 1MΩ on the input but 1kΩ on the output - but it did improve a lot my sound compared to not having a buffer.
The output impedance of your first pedal in the chain (if buffered) may not be as critical if you're turning a lot of pedal on/off after it which is changing the impedance again after the input buffer anyway. However, you're probably just hearing more of what happens when you load the guitar properly with the 1M more than any line driving on the output of the Ricochet. It's better than nothing, but could be better overall if you wanted.
DUDE You're a genius...I wish I knew half as much as you do! Thank you for the info...hoping to excel my brain cells into knowing all things electrical current
have had good success with using an opa2134 in place of a TL072/1. Good cross talk protection between the two op amps so you can even use one side for your input buffer circuit and the other for the output, if you've making a buffered loop interface.
The BB OPA2134 is what we've used in our Boosts and Buffers for many years. It's a quality choice and for the purposes of a buffer lightyears a head of the TL0 series.
@@VertexEffectsInc fantastic, good to hear that. I make the odd pedal myself and my research led me to the OPA2134 as a good option for a buffer. low noise, FET based, crosstalk protection. That really reassures me I did good! :D
@@VertexEffectsInc As always thank you for the solid information. I meet with the Chairmen every Monday and always enjoy the topic banter. In the thread above the mention replacement of the TL072/1 with the opa2134. Would this be a direct swap out in the circuit? The reason I'm curious, is after viewing this cast I discovered that both my input and output buffers (little black ones😮) happen to use that very OPA. Please advise you buffer bad A** you! Thx for all the info.
Great video.Thank you. I am currently looking into buffers (I have 3 pedalboards on the go - electric, acoustic and bass) and the timing for this was perfect... So much work to do to sort this out! Lots of 'bodies' surfacing on my pedalboards hahah! Great stuff! Thanks again
Just ordered all of the parts for your DIY 4CM buffer interface, including three 1Mohm buffers from Creation Audio Labs. Just a thought, both buffers for the FX both send/return, are spec'd to use 1Mohm buffers. Will this negatively impact the signal being that they're both 1Mohm? Or, should I try to find a 100 ohm buffer for the in (send from amp) and use the 1Mohm out back to the FX return?
Hi Mason, thanks for all the knowledge and experience shared - the passion and amount of information you put into your content is really appreciated. I've been following your buffer inspired talks for some time now, and I can't remember seeing you taking a look at IK multimedia Z-tone boost/buffer pedal. Any thoughts on the pedal? Regards from Croatia.
Never heard of it but even if it's great you'd still need two of them, one for input buffer one for output buffer. Why not just get something that does it all in one like our Vertex Buffer Interface or Goodwood Audio Interfacer.
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks for your reply! I believe those are made by an Italian manufacturer (allegedly at some point used by Satriani, for what its worth). I did, honestly thought about getting goodwood, but I need a boost pedal and already have TC electronic polytune bonafide on my board....
This video is amazing and full of useful info. Even when pedals are off, you hear huge differences and I have spent hours doing so. For some reason, Fulltone and Wampler pedals seem to fight one another depending on where they are in the chain. Idk what it is. I find the Wamplers kind of 'shear' off some extension of my tone. The top end is there but not extended like it was without it. Idk what it is. Metaverse Delay pedal did it and the Ratsbane is not friendly at all with other pedals.
I went down the buffer rabbit hole a few months ago after seeing some of your other videos. I now run a Jackson Prism at the start of my chain into my ES8 with the buffers off and then have the BigSky at the end of the chain. switching to better buffers at the input and making sure all the buffering in the ES8 made a big difference. I think there was a bit more clarity from my signal but the 'feel' and 'response' of the guitar improved drastically. Not really sure how to describe it - it's almost like it was experiencing some dodgy compression maybe? In any case thanks for these videos!
I don't know the spec of the Prism so I can't speak to how it loads the guitar, but the Strymon is good quality for an output buffer and is 100 ohms output impedance (a good spec).
@@VertexEffectsInc Not sure about the specs on the input, but they specify it's meant to run first in the chain, particularly the treble boost circuit. Output is 100ohm... And it's at least passed my ear test.
(1) Watch 12:25. I provide the "ideal specs" for a quality buffer. (2) Then look up where the Peterson Buffer sits (www.petersontuners.com/media/pdf/StroboStompHD_Specifications_rev1.0.pdf). Given this information is this a spec that would indicate a quality/transparent buffer?
Any wireless devices act like buffers as well. So, if your guitar is using a wireless connection to your effects unit or pedalboard, then the wireless device is acting like a buffer. Same goes for the output of the pedalboard into the mixer board or amp. The 2015 Les Paul Classic has a buffer / boost built in, it's amazing to hear what the pickups sound like when you match the high impedance of the pickups to the low impedance cable at the guitar.
Yes, wireless is low impedance, so it could replace an input buffer if you only used a wireless rig. Once you got cabled however, you'll need an input buffer. You still need output buffers however even with the wireless.
Good for bass, but too unloaded for guitar. Look at the specs, the input impedance is like 3 or 5M input impedance so 3-5x more unloaded than any guitar tube amp.
I have an RMC10 wah and a dunlop oc1 Octavio. I also have a polytune and a strymon blue sky. I’m planning on moving my strymon behind my boss looper at the end of the chain to be the output buffer and moving my polytune behind my wah and Octavio to be the input buffer. Not sure if this is correct or not?
Thank you so much for your videos! I have a few questions though if you'd be so kind… This is my signal chain: Shure GLXD16 Wireless System, then a Wah (Morley Mark Tremonti) and a Fuzz Factory Probe (then MXR Poly Blue Octave, BOSS SY 1, Whammy IV, Super Clean Xotic, Mini Ego Compressor, Browne Protein, and TC Bonafide Buffer) before everything else (ODs, Distors, Fuzzes, Booster, Phaser, Harmonist, and Echorec Delay… all these in these parentheses controlled by a Voodoo Lab Ground Control Pro via 2 HEX units). As far as I know, these would be the buffers I'm adding to my whole signal chain (of course, I might be wrong): Shure GLXD16, Wah (Morley MT), BOSS SY1, Xotic Super Clean, and inside the GCP-controlled pedals would also be a BOOS BD-2 (NOT Waza), KHDK Scuzz Box, BOSS NS-2, and a BOSS PS-6. So, where would you recommend to add my Buffers (I currently own a TC Bonafide and a JHS Buffer)? Right now I have the Bonafide right after the Protein since it's a long cable to go to the send of the GCP-controlled pedals… is that the right place? Would you recommend to add a second one (JHS) right after the OUT of the GCP-controlled pedals or would it be too much? Is the Fuzz Factory Probe sensitive to buffers? How do I know that? Thank you soooo much in advance!
@VertexEffectsInc Thanks for the reply. Never really looked into the values before. Actually, now thinking of it, I own a Visual Sound volume pedal. I think it's 1M ohm input and 50k ohm output in terms of impedances? Also, never thought of putting a buffer last in the pedalboard chain. Might experiment with that
is there such thing as over doing the buffers in a rig? I have a peterson strobostomp tuner in the display mode which activates the buffer going into lehle volume pedal . Is it bad to have back to back buffers , even if they are high quality ?
In my personal experience I cannot tell there is any signal loss on my board (13 pedals) using the ES-5. It sounds the same to me as plugging straight in. However that being said, I do have some good quality buffered pedals after the switcher.
Looks like i missed the boat, i asked on a Sweetwater bass video but was told DI's are not balanced or buffered ?!?!?!...the manual says different, Laney Digbeth 660ohm XLR output My NU-X is 75ohm XLR output...i thought a preamp DI pedal with XLR output is low impedence & buffered ? but Sweetwater says no ?!?! My original question was do i need a seperate Bonafide buffer on my Pre-amp's jacksocket return to my bass amp & cab, i play only passive bass's..now very confused as buffered Polytune 3 first pedal, bass DI pre-amp last in series ,the MLD has some clever switching options....says XLR output 75ohm but no mention of DI's jacksocket output to bass amps input...do i need another buffer after my DI back to my bass amp ? Thank you...fingers crossed this time
Hi Mason, my bass pre-amp DI pedals have 75ohm output impedence stated in manuals but no mention if the jackplug ouput to bass amp is buffered or not...i use a choice of pre-amp DI pedals...NU-X MLD Bass pre-amp/DI (75ohm)...Laney Digbeth bass pre-amp/DI (output impedence 660ohm) or Shift Line Bass Cab Zone X amp & cab ir box (75ohm output) again no mention if jackplug output is buffered or not...if the XLR output is 75ohm will the jackplug output to bass amp be the same ? Thank you for your time....
Interesting about the Boss Buffers. I note that the input buffer on the ES8 switcher is 1m but the output buffer is 1k. So the output one is not great- you mentioned that impedance is not the be all and end all of buffers Mason, I wonder if you have a view on the ES8 buffers. Are they any better than the pedal versions?
All buffers from Boss are 1K on the output (10x worse than recommended). The input impedance is variable on the pedals depending on what they are, but still the circuit is the same and you can change the input impedance value with resistors. The ES-8 is the same circuit type as any other Boss effect. That's consistent on all their pedals.
VERTEX, you should make a video lesson about using booster pedals, preamp pedals, overdrive pedals, distortion pedals going straight into the FX return port because the FX Return Port mostly have buffer circuits which will overload the buffers input causing a nasty harsh overload harmonics. This is using buffers wrong and also its recommend to use special EQ pedals with the preamp pedals when going direct into the FX return port. The problem is that the amplifiers FX return port has a buffer circuit.
Nice video, very instructive, thanks! And what about having a Tech21 Sansamp Bass Driver DI at the end of the chain? I can't find much information about its buffer...
This was a great video! One question: I have a Lekato Looper at the end of one of my boards. Should I put my end buffer (TC Bonafide) before or after this looper pedal? I was going to put it before to enhance tone to the recorded loops. Would that be correct? Thanks if you're able to answer Mason!
I feel like a buffer helps with maintaining the high end and the life of sound. Bass player here who uses lots of pedals. If there is no good input buffer I feel like my top end is rolled off even with an active bass. I don’t use an output buffer because I use an active direct box out. I want to hear the doctors thoughts though!
On your DIY Buffer Interface page, you call out Creation Audio Labs Buffer PCB in the B.o.M.. It doesn't look like you can order that anymore. Is there another source for a DIY buffer?
Let's say you do want to have a bunch of BOSS pedals in your pedalboard. Would it be best case senario to have the BOSS pedals in a true bypass loop switcher?
Got to ask.. so if I've got a top notch input and output buffer, and I put 10 boss pedals in between them, I'm still going to get extra noise and volume loss, right?
Yes, there is a point where too many lower quality buffers will impact the tone negatively. You can deal with the capacitance and some of the roll off to a degree with the buffer but you can't fix the noise floor or the volume loss.
I tried this out on my pedalboard by putting just ONE Boss pedal in the chain. Instantly ruined my tone. Straight up took it out and all is good again XD
Curious what would happen if I ran a series of Boss pedals into the loop of a noise gate? Like, if I went from a Polytune 3 in buffer mode into an NS-2, had multiple Boss dirt pedals in the Send/Return of that pedal, but then the out of the gate went to some true bypass modulation and ending with a Flashback. Would the pedals in the loop create the kind of tone suck you talk about with multiple Boss pedals in a row?
I’m curious about your thoughts on the 29 Pedals Euna and Oamp which take input and output buffers to the extreme for your pedalboard. Interesting multifunction utility pedals. Are they overkill or essential?
Toby - they're well built without a doubt. From a pedalboard perspective, however, they have some impracticalities in that: 1) You have to get at least two of them in order to condition your pedalboard from end to end and even more if you run stereo or have an amp with an effects loop. 2) They offer no isolation. 3) They're not true buffers in the sense that they are supposed to have a color by design and offer several EQ options. 4) They unload the guitar - as I recall they're 2M input impedance with is 2x the loading of any tube amp. This is a design decision, but I disagree with it. To summarize, a buffer, in the true sense of what it does, has not color, has no EQ, has no shape other than what comes in, goes out with no change to the signal. I look at these pedals more like high quality EQ's with low output impedances, not so much as a buffer. To condition your mono pedalboard with an input and output buffer from 29 Pedals, it's about $550, maybe $600+ with taxes/shipping. They're separate units, require separate power and take up two pedal spots on your board. I don't see the advantage to make it a better choice than say a Vertex Buffer Interface, Goodwood Audio Interfacer, or any number of buffer/interfaces that exist with high quality buffer circuits. You could say, of course, that I have my own personal bias to favor my own products, but even so, 29 Pedals aren't rig builders that have done it hundreds of times to have a clear understanding of what's the most streamlined way to build and condition a rig from A-Z. They built a high quality product that's got some buzz for sure, but I don't think you'll see these devices in their current form picked up by rig builders because it creates unnecessary issues on the board that still require supplementation to make it work properly in the context of a pro level pedalboard.
Thanks Mason for an excellent explanation on impedance matchups throughout the chain. Do you have any experience with/opinions on the Alembic Stratoblaster onboard buffer? Also, was mildly surprised you didn't recognize "Stinkfoot" as the title of a classic Zappa song.
My TC electronic polytuner 3 has a buffer that I put AFTER my Dunlop crybaby. I did order a pure buffer to go at the end. I hope that saves my signal bc I noticed my signal is partially lost.
Hey Mason, So I have the Empress buffer for my front end & Suhr Buffer on the FX loop. With the Empress I notice that there is a element of compression introduced that doesnt let my volume knob interact the same as it does plugged straight into amp. Will usng the Suhr at the front end @18V give me the additional headroom needed and restore that volume knob response. The guitar has 50s wiring and the amp is a cranked 50 W JMP
To be clear, the Empress Buffer is doing input buffer and output buffer in front of the amp, and the Suhr is buffering the FX Return at the end of the FX Loop chain before going back the amp? If the Suhr for some reason is on the send, it's already too late and not effective to use there, and should be after the last pedal in the effects loop before heading back to the FX Loop Return. It might no be the Empress but any number of pedals on the board that are buffered/not buffered the change the input impedance as it goes or create irregular dynamics between pedals. The best test would be guitar, Empress Input Buffer, Amp and see if it does the same thing. You could also consider going with the Vertex Buffer Interface (www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/VBuffInt--vertex-effects-pedalboard-buffer-interface) which basically puts all the buffers under one roof and has the isolation, etc. The Suhr Buffer and being 18V won't resolve this issue I suspect. I don't think it's a headroom thing and the design of the Empress runs at a higher voltage internally as I recall (as our buffer does as well). I think this is an impedance thing or a grounding thing.
Yup, so the chain is. 2 fuzzes, Wah and then the Empress input then amp The fx loop is send > TC Corona> delay Reverb and then the Suhr buffer I have no issues on the fx loop However I do find that the front is losing that direct to amp response with the volume knob. On 10 it’s sounds pretty identical. But not at 7 🧐
Mason, i currently have a Lehle Sunday Driver for my bass pedalboard as input buffer and going DI out at the end, so no output buffer. I had heard you mention before that the Peterson Strobostomp was a good buffer for bass. Is that still the case? And if so, can i replace the Sunday Driver and just use a strobostomp tuner and get good results?
It's good for a lot of basses because it's so unloaded. Depended on your bass amp it might be a good fit. I think it's around 5M or something like that.
Hi Mason... i always follow your videos so rich of useful and complete information for us tone seekers... i would like to know what do you think about the TC electronic bonafide buffer embedded in the polytune v3... thank you!
It's the same as the stand-alone version. Definitely one of the better ones out there for buffers built into tuners. You'd still need an output buffer however.
I have a pretty small board and usually have the TC Polytuner at the front with the buffer turned on and the Strymon Flint at the end with Trails turned on. Supposedly the buffer is only on if trails is on. Although sometimes I put the TC Ditto Looper at the end of the chain, but I assume the Analog Dry through does not negate the buffer from the Flint?
The TC Polytune (with Bona Fide) and the Flint last should be fine if both are in buffered mode or turned on (any pedal "ON" is a buffer true bypass or not). The TC Looper at the end having analog dry means nothing as it relates to this, however when it's on it has a 100 ohm output impedance I think so it's fine to use as well in that place.
Great video! I have 7 pedals on my board, I have the Polytune 3 2nd in the chain (Boss FZ 1-W 1st in the chain) then I have a TC PlethoraX3 2nd to last in the chain (Boss RC10R Looper last). Would you suggest putting the Polytune 3 1st in the chain? I tend to go with never putting anything in front of a fuzz pedal, just curious if anyone had a thought on this. Love the channel!
Hey I had a couple questions. I have a euna on the input that I love, but would a keeley hydra on the output be any good as a buffer? I want a stereo rig but there’s no stereo cleanboost/buffer I can find. I also wanted to ask if the J Rockett Uni-verb is true bypass if you know? I feel like it might make the signal darker by being in it and If I get the guitar somewhat close to it I can hear the power buzz fluctuating (dunno if that’s just the magnets of my guitar tho)
What's the output impedance? I provided a criteria in the video for what constitutes a quality buffer. How about the Vertex Buffer Interface? It has stereo outputs and transformer isolation: www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/VBuffInt--vertex-effects-pedalboard-buffer-interface
Very helpful. If you had a very high quality clean boost pedal at unity gain first in chain, always on, doesn’t that load the guitar and act as a buffer?
Well...some people confuse price and pedigree with high quality. It means nothing unless it spec'd out at 1M input impedance and 100 ohm output impedance as a rough baseline. If it meets that spec and is always on, it could be your input buffer, but you'd still need an output buffer last.
Thanks Mason. So I heard from manufacturer here is what he said. “ Thank you for your inquiry. Input impedance:1MΩ Output impedance:100kΩ Consumption current:5mA Thank you, Yusaku @ Shin’s Music”. I have a Shin’s Music Clean Boost. So I am guessing you think this would be a good front end buffer for my chain. Thanks again. By the way I love your patch cables. I probably own about 50 of them.
Thanks for the info. I use an tc bonafide as an input buffer and have my big sky as my output buffer (four pedals inbetween). Do I need to consider getting another tc bonafide to go after the big sky?
Thoughts on the Friedman buffer bay? Picked it up years ago with one of their boards before I even understood buffers and haven’t been able to find any specs for it. I believe only one of the 5 or 6 lines is buffered so I’ll still need another buffer anyway, but was curious if you happened to know the specs?
It only has one buffer (an input buffer) and is similar to the Pete Cornish LD-1 which I know a lot of people like, but I don't find it particularly transparent (it has a definitive sound to be sure). My attitude was always to make everything neutral and then you could add color as needed with other pedals or even your input cable from guitar to pedalboard to get more EQ shaping to your taste. It also seems to have some capacitive coupling (resulting in oscillation) if you use jacks that are close together for something like an FX Loop or a Stereo Rig because of the PCB layout. It can be resolved by just using a different set of jacks further apart so isn't too big a deal, but just something I noticed. There is also no isolation in this box either so you'd need your own ISO transformers for multi-amp set ups. I think it's 1M input impedance/1K output impedance.
Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for! Appreciate you taking the time to explain things in a clear and easily understandable way, love tuning into your vids!
Everything we stated here would line up for bass. The only variable can be the input impedance on bass amps is much more dependent and can fluctuate from 500K to 10M in some cases.
Any thoughts on using a Providence System Tuner first, then about 4 true bypass pedals and ending the chain with the Chrono Delay? (Or a Free The Tone Flight Time) Would I still need a buffer?
If the UA pedal is on the board and you're going DI to the DAW/Mixer, you should be fine as far as output buffers. Input buffer will still be needed. Your pedalboard isn't running Bluetooth so there is still cable capacitance and the normal factors you'd see with an amp.
Thanks for all the tips! couple of Questions: -How do you feel about a pedal like the 29 pedals Euna, which is not a buffer, but is supposed to replace one? -What do pedals that feature AD-DA with no analog dry through (example source audio eq2) do in terms of impedance and should we treat them differently? Cheers!
Drey - 29 Pedals are well built without a doubt. From a pedalboard perspective, however, they have some impracticalities in that: 1) You have to get at least two of them in order to condition your pedalboard from end to end and even more if you run stereo or have an amp with an effects loop. 2) They offer no isolation. 3) They're not true buffers in the sense that they are supposed to have a color by design and offer several EQ options. 4) They unload the guitar - as I recall they're 2M input impedance with is 2x the loading of any tube amp. This is a design decision, but I disagree with it. To summarize, a buffer, in the true sense of what it does, has not color, has no EQ, has no shape other than what comes in, goes out with no change to the signal. I look at these pedals more like high quality EQ's with low output impedances, not so much as a buffer. To condition your mono pedalboard with an input and output buffer from 29 Pedals, it's about $550, maybe $600+ with taxes/shipping. They're separate units, require separate power and take up two pedal spots on your board. I don't see the advantage to make it a better choice than say a Vertex Buffer Interface, Goodwood Audio Interfacer, or any number of buffer/interfaces that exist with high quality buffer circuits. You could say, of course, that I have my own personal bias to favor my own products, but even so, 29 Pedals aren't rig builders that have done it hundreds of times to have a clear understanding of what's the most streamlined way to build and condition a rig from A-Z. They built a high quality product that's got some buzz for sure, but I don't think you'll see these devices in their current form picked up by rig builders because it creates unnecessary issues on the board that still require supplementation to make it work properly in the context of a pro level pedalboard. The Analog Dry Path thing I think is overstated for most and as far as any impedance interaction isn't a concern. Most of the Source Audio stuff is maybe 300 ohms or so output impedance so it's pretty good, but not perfect. The lack of analog dry is pretty overstated I think, and if people are really concerned about it you can always through the pedal in a mixer (to give you the analog dry) and compare what it does or if the impacts of the digital bypass (DSP Bypass) are consequential. Many brands, including Eventide, Line 6, and others don't offer an analog dry path and sell well. Their shortcomings (if any) aren't specifically related to having an analog dry. Bottom line, if you like the functions and sound, I would give it a try. Otherwise you can try the Boss EQ-200 which has similar features and programmability and I think has an analog dry.
On my large pedalboard, I use a Radial/Tonebone PZ-Select as my input buffer and utility pedal for handling incoming magnetic/electric and piezo/acoustic signals. The literature states that the magnetic/electric channel uses, "Radial's award-winning class A buffering circuit," that can drive long cable runs and true-bypass pedals up to 50 feet without appreciable noise. However, the electric/magnetic channel output impedance is listed as 10k ohms, and you're saying a high quality buffer should have an output impedance of 200 ohms or less. Whatup wit dat?
Jackson, the drag thing could be cool I guess, but really 99.9% of tube amps are all 1M on the input so loading the guitar down is going to get you further away from neutral unless you don't prefer the sound of your guitar plugged into your amp alone. Furthermore, it looks like the output impedance is 10K (that's 100x worse than ideal output impedance a 100-200 ohms). I wouldn't recommend this for a quality line driver that won't suffer significant loss to whatever it's driving on the output (whether that be cables, pedals, or otherwise). www.radialeng.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/PZ-Select-UserGuide.pdf
What do you think of a Boss DD 500 as the last pedal - would you use the buffered out or true bypass with a stand alone buffer - or just buy a Timeline?
Can I use Protein as a buffer? 🤔 Jokes and puns aside, I have followed your other buffer tips and have definitely maintained my tone quality. Thanks for another great episode!
@Max Iokua and @Michael Clark - There is no buffer in it as it relates to a buffer bypass pedal. When you select the "buffer on" on the Clyde it's only active when the pedal is on for the purposes of pairing better with a Fuzz where the sweep of the wah might otherwise be impacted. When the Wah is off, the buffer is off. It does nothing to condition your signal whatsoever. See 38:55 in this video
Look at the specs. I provide a criteria for quality buffers. You tell me. What do you see on their spec sheet versus what I recommend? Also, remember on these types of single buffers you need two (one first as the input buffer, one last for the output buffer) even if it does meet the specs criteria.
So BOSS came out with a pretty amazing new analog delay workstation. DM-101. But the specs show 1M ohm input impedance and 1k output. So my question is, this is perhaps one of BOSS's most state of the art pedals. Why would they put such a "crappy" buffer on it? They (Roland) are one of the most pre-eminent manufacturers in history of effects pedals. Why would they do this if it is so bad, on such an expensive pedal?
Boss has been around for a long time, and their pedals have been used by millions, including plenty of notable rockstars. I’m just going to assume they know what they are doing, and continue buying Boss.
I love boss pedals,I've been using them for many years,only problem is they can be hissing or kinda noisy but they are as useful if not more useful than other clones of the same pedal.affordable.reliable.replacable.
Hi Mason. Thanks for another incredibly informative video. I have a question regarding this subject and would be very grateful for your feedback. I am running a board with 15 pedals. 3 are buffered; Polytune, Waza FZ-1w, and HOF 2 Reverb. I was happy to hear that those TC pedals have adequate buffers and that FZ pedals handle buffers before ok. Should I place my Polytune before or after my FZ-1w fuzz? If I place my tuner before the fuzz, would the benefits of it’s buffer be negated by the FZ-1w buffer? Or, do you recommend using a true bypass fuzz that is not impedance sensitive in this case?
Depends on what the input impedance of the FZ-1W is, if it's 1M it might be fine first and then put the tuner after and make sure it's in true bypass mode. If the FZ is more loaded down (which is typical of many fuzzes) then you can leave the Polytune first and experiment with buffered/unbuffered mode to see how much it impacts the Fuzz sound.
Ron and I hear things differently. Their buffer is high quality but I disagree with the input impedance specs (their output impedance specs are great). They chose 500K for the input impedance, but no amps are 500K so they're deliberating loading the guitar down 50% more than what any tube amp is that a guitar player would use.
Okay so I'm down. Lets get that out of the way. And also, I own every Digitech and Boss Pedal as of 2023. Now heres the big divulge: Buffers are trial and error. Proximity matters, order matters, buffers matter, and your willingness to adapt to the technique for your setup matters. There. I said it. I wish I could say to my past self and tell him to scream it from the rooftops that I should play what I own awesomely. Yes. Play it awesomely instead of acquiring more gear. You've been buying gear for 5 years? Get a Zoom Multieffects for 50 bucks and dont tell anyone. Profit.
maybe because I’m old school. I’m not saying better or worse. I can’t compare a tube amp to class d amp as they are two different beasts. Likewise I have owned so many brands of pedals in my repair life which is over 40 years. And have repaired many collector pedals. I have to remove my technical hat and use my ears to make my final judgement. You mentioned strymon which I have owned many. For me they are to sterile. Awesome company but for my tastes not for me. A lossy buffer is also a creation of sound. I personally love jfet buffers. I still own many boutique pedals, but funny as it may seem I always go back to my boss pedals, and Into a tube amp where the noise floor already sucks it doesn’t matter. A clinically correct buffer may not achieve the tone you desire. As for buffers yes they are essential for large pedal boards.
I only mentioned Strymon buffers, because they are better than most of what is out there, in terms of properly, treating the impedance. The JFET stuff is going to change the tone no matter what, that may be what you like, however. Yet, if you have a well-built buffer, it should be totally neutral, and have no artifact whatsoever and you shouldn’t have to resort to using an inferior buffer just to get something that feels good.
The Empress? I think it's OK, but there are better options out there now including our Vertex Buffer Interface, so I tend to recommend that as it has a lot more features and better quality buffers in my mind. I think for it's day it was great and unique, but as better stuff came to the market, like the Mesa Boogie Highwire, it became less viable.
Mason was charitable and somehow found something nice to say about those awful Archetype plugins. They are bland and sterile, just terrible. But I get how you could put a sound like that through a bunch of effects and get something useful. It's also kind of embarrassing how bad those plugins are, yet people acting like they are somehow amazing.
TABLE OF CONTENTS
00:00 - Buffer Conversation Overview
02:42 - Are Boss Buffers Sufficient?
06:16 - Brian Wampler's Buffered vs. True Bypass Test (th-cam.com/video/-oxBlWmeGE0/w-d-xo.html)
10:30 - Differences between an Input Buffer, Output Buffer, And The Role Of Impedance
18:40 - Bad Buffers In Disguise
25:03 - Pedals With Good Quality Built-In Buffers
33:35 - Pedals That Aren't Buffered Or True Bypass
36:37 - Stinkfoot Mods To Vintage SPDT Switches
37:47 - Pedals That Don't Work After A Buffer
38:55 - What Is A "Fuzz Friendly" Wah Or "Buffered" Wah?
42:15 - Un-Buffer
43:00 - Fuzzes That Work With Buffered Signals
44:05 - Buffers And Active Pickups
53:19 - Testing The Quality Of Your True Bypass Pedal
55:35 - Pedalboard Building Strategy For Low Noise
*NOTE* From 35:13 - 40:21 there is some glitchy video, however the audio quality is not impacted.
I've watched ALL of Dr. Marangella videos. This channel is the single best A-Z source for understanding what really goes into pedals/pedalboards.
Much more content/informative when Mason flies solo.
At the risk of alienating many of you out there, this video was a relief.
I didn't have to fast forward through the other two being "curious" or "you wanna take this one Mason".
I understand Brian Omilion has a couple of famous client's, but my god his lack of knowledge is stunning.
Thanks for watching. We all bring a unique perspective to the table, normally I wouldn't fly solo but the conditions required it for this week. Looking forward to having Brian and Grant back next week!
@@VertexEffectsInc ok man.
Sorry if I compelled you to smooth that out.
I'll keep such thoughts to myself. ✌️
Interesting..
Thank you Mason an awesome solo run. It was another advanced session on buffers, a real on going clarity seminar and compliment to your existing videos on the subject. I've enjoyed learning about the importance of a quality signal path and setting up a proper rig, awesome. There are but a handful of quality, generous and knowledgeable individuals out there available to us internet guitar rookies and aspiring tone snobs, I wish you the best ongoing success and MaxRespect! Fan and customer for life!
Wow, thanks Karl!
Excellent 1 hour video of fantastic useful information Mason! I got a year ago the Mesa Boggie high wire dual buffer following your advice and it was the best decision i ever did in terms of pedalboard tone improve and also low noise solution. Thanks for always helping us!!!
I was going to ask specifically about the poly tune with the bonafide buffer, so thank you for touching on that!
Glad to help!
Wahzon, Wahzoff! LOL >> 40:40 There's one thing us seasoned pros know that nobody has pointed out. Some guitars just love high Z. In one word, Hendrix. I embrace the noise. hehehe. Great work man
Thanks for this video. Very informative! I have recently added a Digitech Ricochet as first in chain, mostly for its buffered bypass. It's not the ideal buffer - 1MΩ on the input but 1kΩ on the output - but it did improve a lot my sound compared to not having a buffer.
The output impedance of your first pedal in the chain (if buffered) may not be as critical if you're turning a lot of pedal on/off after it which is changing the impedance again after the input buffer anyway. However, you're probably just hearing more of what happens when you load the guitar properly with the 1M more than any line driving on the output of the Ricochet. It's better than nothing, but could be better overall if you wanted.
DUDE You're a genius...I wish I knew half as much as you do! Thank you for the info...hoping to excel my brain cells into knowing all things electrical current
Glad to help!
"vintage pervs" LOL, fantastic!
Ha!
have had good success with using an opa2134 in place of a TL072/1. Good cross talk protection between the two op amps so you can even use one side for your input buffer circuit and the other for the output, if you've making a buffered loop interface.
The BB OPA2134 is what we've used in our Boosts and Buffers for many years. It's a quality choice and for the purposes of a buffer lightyears a head of the TL0 series.
@@VertexEffectsInc fantastic, good to hear that. I make the odd pedal myself and my research led me to the OPA2134 as a good option for a buffer. low noise, FET based, crosstalk protection. That really reassures me I did good! :D
@@VertexEffectsInc As always thank you for the solid information. I meet with the Chairmen every Monday and always enjoy the topic banter. In the thread above the mention replacement of the TL072/1 with the opa2134. Would this be a direct swap out in the circuit? The reason I'm curious, is after viewing this cast I discovered that both my input and output buffers (little black ones😮) happen to use that very OPA. Please advise you buffer bad A** you! Thx for all the info.
lol, beautiful tone day, that was good humor and on target!
Great show Mason. So much useful info. I’ve been playing my 56 Custom shop strat through the ultra phonix and it sounds killer.
Amazing! Thanks for the support!
Great video.Thank you. I am currently looking into buffers (I have 3 pedalboards on the go - electric, acoustic and bass) and the timing for this was perfect... So much work to do to sort this out! Lots of 'bodies' surfacing on my pedalboards hahah! Great stuff! Thanks again
Glad to help!
Just ordered all of the parts for your DIY 4CM buffer interface, including three 1Mohm buffers from Creation Audio Labs. Just a thought, both buffers for the FX both send/return, are spec'd to use 1Mohm buffers. Will this negatively impact the signal being that they're both 1Mohm? Or, should I try to find a 100 ohm buffer for the in (send from amp) and use the 1Mohm out back to the FX return?
1M on the input is fine in all locations.
Hi Mason, thanks for all the knowledge and experience shared - the passion and amount of information you put into your content is really appreciated. I've been following your buffer inspired talks for some time now, and I can't remember seeing you taking a look at IK multimedia Z-tone boost/buffer pedal. Any thoughts on the pedal? Regards from Croatia.
Never heard of it but even if it's great you'd still need two of them, one for input buffer one for output buffer. Why not just get something that does it all in one like our Vertex Buffer Interface or Goodwood Audio Interfacer.
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks for your reply! I believe those are made by an Italian manufacturer (allegedly at some point used by Satriani, for what its worth). I did, honestly thought about getting goodwood, but I need a boost pedal and already have TC electronic polytune bonafide on my board....
This video is amazing and full of useful info. Even when pedals are off, you hear huge differences and I have spent hours doing so. For some reason, Fulltone and Wampler pedals seem to fight one another depending on where they are in the chain. Idk what it is. I find the Wamplers kind of 'shear' off some extension of my tone. The top end is there but not extended like it was without it. Idk what it is. Metaverse Delay pedal did it and the Ratsbane is not friendly at all with other pedals.
Awesome knowledge bruh ! Cheers from Toronto !
Wahz on Wahz off. Thanks for an excellent class.
Wow, thanks!
MXR M300 reverb as last pedal also works at 100 ohms output.
I went down the buffer rabbit hole a few months ago after seeing some of your other videos. I now run a Jackson Prism at the start of my chain into my ES8 with the buffers off and then have the BigSky at the end of the chain. switching to better buffers at the input and making sure all the buffering in the ES8 made a big difference. I think there was a bit more clarity from my signal but the 'feel' and 'response' of the guitar improved drastically. Not really sure how to describe it - it's almost like it was experiencing some dodgy compression maybe? In any case thanks for these videos!
I don't know the spec of the Prism so I can't speak to how it loads the guitar, but the Strymon is good quality for an output buffer and is 100 ohms output impedance (a good spec).
@@VertexEffectsInc Not sure about the specs on the input, but they specify it's meant to run first in the chain, particularly the treble boost circuit. Output is 100ohm... And it's at least passed my ear test.
Within the ES8 are you using Boss's true bypass or the ES8 buffers?
@@weareyouthere ES8 buffers off. Running true bypass
I was wondering about Peterson Strobostomp tuners with the selectable buffer, I never hear you mention them?
(1) Watch 12:25. I provide the "ideal specs" for a quality buffer. (2) Then look up where the Peterson Buffer sits (www.petersontuners.com/media/pdf/StroboStompHD_Specifications_rev1.0.pdf). Given this information is this a spec that would indicate a quality/transparent buffer?
Any wireless devices act like buffers as well. So, if your guitar is using a wireless connection to your effects unit or pedalboard, then the wireless device is acting like a buffer. Same goes for the output of the pedalboard into the mixer board or amp. The 2015 Les Paul Classic has a buffer / boost built in, it's amazing to hear what the pickups sound like when you match the high impedance of the pickups to the low impedance cable at the guitar.
Yes, wireless is low impedance, so it could replace an input buffer if you only used a wireless rig. Once you got cabled however, you'll need an input buffer. You still need output buffers however even with the wireless.
Maybe I missed it but how do you check the quality of a buffer specification? Where is that information often found? Sorry I'm a noob😅
Lol first thing crossed my mind when I started this vid.
Me too I want to in know. Maybe ask ai?
Normally stamped beside output on Buffers, the Bonafide buffer has it printed on side of the standalone Bonafide buffer
Input 1K, output 70ohms
Excellent info.
Thanks for listening!
I think the Peterson Strobostomp HD tuner has a really good buffer 🤘
Yes, 100 ohm output in buffered bypass mode, according to Peterson's specs.
What’s your opinion of the Peterson strobo stomp buffers
Good for bass, but too unloaded for guitar. Look at the specs, the input impedance is like 3 or 5M input impedance so 3-5x more unloaded than any guitar tube amp.
I have an RMC10 wah and a dunlop oc1 Octavio. I also have a polytune and a strymon blue sky. I’m planning on moving my strymon behind my boss looper at the end of the chain to be the output buffer and moving my polytune behind my wah and Octavio to be the input buffer. Not sure if this is correct or not?
Very Helpful!
Thank you so much for your videos! I have a few questions though if you'd be so kind…
This is my signal chain: Shure GLXD16 Wireless System, then a Wah (Morley Mark Tremonti) and a Fuzz Factory Probe (then MXR Poly Blue Octave, BOSS SY 1, Whammy IV, Super Clean Xotic, Mini Ego Compressor, Browne Protein, and TC Bonafide Buffer) before everything else (ODs, Distors, Fuzzes, Booster, Phaser, Harmonist, and Echorec Delay… all these in these parentheses controlled by a Voodoo Lab Ground Control Pro via 2 HEX units).
As far as I know, these would be the buffers I'm adding to my whole signal chain (of course, I might be wrong): Shure GLXD16, Wah (Morley MT), BOSS SY1, Xotic Super Clean, and inside the GCP-controlled pedals would also be a BOOS BD-2 (NOT Waza), KHDK Scuzz Box, BOSS NS-2, and a BOSS PS-6.
So, where would you recommend to add my Buffers (I currently own a TC Bonafide and a JHS Buffer)? Right now I have the Bonafide right after the Protein since it's a long cable to go to the send of the GCP-controlled pedals… is that the right place?
Would you recommend to add a second one (JHS) right after the OUT of the GCP-controlled pedals or would it be too much?
Is the Fuzz Factory Probe sensitive to buffers? How do I know that?
Thank you soooo much in advance!
I'm not sure if it's purely what I am hearing, but the buffer on my Eventide Pitchfactor works pretty good too
I'm pretty sure they're 500 ohms output impedance, not bad, but not great either.
@VertexEffectsInc Thanks for the reply. Never really looked into the values before. Actually, now thinking of it, I own a Visual Sound volume pedal. I think it's 1M ohm input and 50k ohm output in terms of impedances? Also, never thought of putting a buffer last in the pedalboard chain. Might experiment with that
Mason
Thanks for the vendor info. I guess switchcraft is not the only supplier for some time now.
is there such thing as over doing the buffers in a rig?
I have a peterson strobostomp tuner in the display mode which activates the buffer going into lehle volume pedal .
Is it bad to have back to back buffers , even if they are high quality ?
Are the buffers any better in the Boss Waza craft pedals? Or How about the Boss Switchers like the ES5?
In my personal experience I cannot tell there is any signal loss on my board (13 pedals) using the ES-5. It sounds the same to me as plugging straight in. However that being said, I do have some good quality buffered pedals after the switcher.
They are the same buffers with just tighter tolerances, and may be a little bit better, quality part overall, but the same spec
Hello rig doctor. Is it necessary a buffer for an amp loop effect (i.e. after preamp and before amp effects)?
Looks like i missed the boat, i asked on a Sweetwater bass video but was told DI's are not balanced or buffered ?!?!?!...the manual says different, Laney Digbeth 660ohm XLR output
My NU-X is 75ohm XLR output...i thought a preamp DI pedal with XLR output is low impedence & buffered ? but Sweetwater says no ?!?!
My original question was do i need a seperate Bonafide buffer on my Pre-amp's jacksocket return to my bass amp & cab, i play only passive bass's..now very confused as buffered Polytune 3 first pedal, bass DI pre-amp last in series ,the MLD has some clever switching options....says XLR output 75ohm but no mention of DI's jacksocket output to bass amps input...do i need another buffer after my DI back to my bass amp ?
Thank you...fingers crossed this time
Hi Mason, my bass pre-amp DI pedals have 75ohm output impedence stated in manuals but no mention if the jackplug ouput to bass amp is buffered or not...i use a choice of pre-amp DI pedals...NU-X MLD Bass pre-amp/DI (75ohm)...Laney Digbeth bass pre-amp/DI (output impedence 660ohm) or Shift Line Bass Cab Zone X amp & cab ir box (75ohm output) again no mention if jackplug output is buffered or not...if the XLR output is 75ohm will the jackplug output to bass amp be the same ?
Thank you for your time....
Interesting about the Boss Buffers. I note that the input buffer on the ES8 switcher is 1m but the output buffer is 1k. So the output one is not great- you mentioned that impedance is not the be all and end all of buffers Mason, I wonder if you have a view on the ES8 buffers. Are they any better than the pedal versions?
All buffers from Boss are 1K on the output (10x worse than recommended). The input impedance is variable on the pedals depending on what they are, but still the circuit is the same and you can change the input impedance value with resistors. The ES-8 is the same circuit type as any other Boss effect. That's consistent on all their pedals.
Great content Mason...thank you
Thanks for watching!
@@VertexEffectsInc I just ordered your buffer from Sweetwater
VERTEX, you should make a video lesson about using booster pedals, preamp pedals, overdrive pedals, distortion pedals going straight into the FX return port because the FX Return Port mostly have buffer circuits which will overload the buffers input causing a nasty harsh overload harmonics. This is using buffers wrong and also its recommend to use special EQ pedals with the preamp pedals when going direct into the FX return port. The problem is that the amplifiers FX return port has a buffer circuit.
Nice video, very instructive, thanks! And what about having a Tech21 Sansamp Bass Driver DI at the end of the chain? I can't find much information about its buffer...
This was a great video! One question: I have a Lekato Looper at the end of one of my boards. Should I put my end buffer (TC Bonafide) before or after this looper pedal? I was going to put it before to enhance tone to the recorded loops. Would that be correct? Thanks if you're able to answer Mason!
Hope you see this what’s your opinion on the newer 29 Euna pedal in place of a buffer ?
Is it a necessity to have an buffer set up for active bass guitars using multiple pedals?
I feel like a buffer helps with maintaining the high end and the life of sound. Bass player here who uses lots of pedals. If there is no good input buffer I feel like my top end is rolled off even with an active bass. I don’t use an output buffer because I use an active direct box out.
I want to hear the doctors thoughts though!
Input buffer, no, output buffer, yes. The "ACTIVE" Bass means that the buffer is basically inside your bass instead of on the pedalboard input.
On your DIY Buffer Interface page, you call out Creation Audio Labs Buffer PCB in the B.o.M.. It doesn't look like you can order that anymore. Is there another source for a DIY buffer?
Suhr Koko boost is a killer dual boost pedal that doesn't alter the tone whatsoever that has a great buffer.
Let's say you do want to have a bunch of BOSS pedals in your pedalboard. Would it be best case senario to have the BOSS pedals in a true bypass loop switcher?
Yes, switcher or true bypass looper or you can mod them to true bypass.
Got to ask.. so if I've got a top notch input and output buffer, and I put 10 boss pedals in between them, I'm still going to get extra noise and volume loss, right?
Yes, there is a point where too many lower quality buffers will impact the tone negatively. You can deal with the capacitance and some of the roll off to a degree with the buffer but you can't fix the noise floor or the volume loss.
I tried this out on my pedalboard by putting just ONE Boss pedal in the chain. Instantly ruined my tone. Straight up took it out and all is good again XD
Curious what would happen if I ran a series of Boss pedals into the loop of a noise gate? Like, if I went from a Polytune 3 in buffer mode into an NS-2, had multiple Boss dirt pedals in the Send/Return of that pedal, but then the out of the gate went to some true bypass modulation and ending with a Flashback. Would the pedals in the loop create the kind of tone suck you talk about with multiple Boss pedals in a row?
I’m curious about your thoughts on the 29 Pedals Euna and Oamp which take input and output buffers to the extreme for your pedalboard. Interesting multifunction utility pedals. Are they overkill or essential?
Toby - they're well built without a doubt. From a pedalboard perspective, however, they have some impracticalities in that: 1) You have to get at least two of them in order to condition your pedalboard from end to end and even more if you run stereo or have an amp with an effects loop. 2) They offer no isolation. 3) They're not true buffers in the sense that they are supposed to have a color by design and offer several EQ options. 4) They unload the guitar - as I recall they're 2M input impedance with is 2x the loading of any tube amp. This is a design decision, but I disagree with it. To summarize, a buffer, in the true sense of what it does, has not color, has no EQ, has no shape other than what comes in, goes out with no change to the signal. I look at these pedals more like high quality EQ's with low output impedances, not so much as a buffer. To condition your mono pedalboard with an input and output buffer from 29 Pedals, it's about $550, maybe $600+ with taxes/shipping. They're separate units, require separate power and take up two pedal spots on your board. I don't see the advantage to make it a better choice than say a Vertex Buffer Interface, Goodwood Audio Interfacer, or any number of buffer/interfaces that exist with high quality buffer circuits. You could say, of course, that I have my own personal bias to favor my own products, but even so, 29 Pedals aren't rig builders that have done it hundreds of times to have a clear understanding of what's the most streamlined way to build and condition a rig from A-Z. They built a high quality product that's got some buzz for sure, but I don't think you'll see these devices in their current form picked up by rig builders because it creates unnecessary issues on the board that still require supplementation to make it work properly in the context of a pro level pedalboard.
Thanks Mason for an excellent explanation on impedance matchups throughout the chain. Do you have any experience with/opinions on the Alembic Stratoblaster onboard buffer?
Also, was mildly surprised you didn't recognize "Stinkfoot" as the title of a classic Zappa song.
Great video Mason. I have a question, I have a Peterson tuner, does that have the type of buffer you’re talking about thanks.
No
My TC electronic polytuner 3 has a buffer that I put AFTER my Dunlop crybaby. I did order a pure buffer to go at the end. I hope that saves my signal bc I noticed my signal is partially lost.
Hey Mason, So I have the Empress buffer for my front end & Suhr Buffer on the FX loop. With the Empress I notice that there is a element of compression introduced that doesnt let my volume knob interact the same as it does plugged straight into amp. Will usng the Suhr at the front end @18V give me the additional headroom needed and restore that volume knob response. The guitar has 50s wiring and the amp is a cranked 50 W JMP
Also, I use only 3 pedals so I’m not looping them through the Empress and they are all true bypass. 2 are fuzzes and a wah
To be clear, the Empress Buffer is doing input buffer and output buffer in front of the amp, and the Suhr is buffering the FX Return at the end of the FX Loop chain before going back the amp? If the Suhr for some reason is on the send, it's already too late and not effective to use there, and should be after the last pedal in the effects loop before heading back to the FX Loop Return. It might no be the Empress but any number of pedals on the board that are buffered/not buffered the change the input impedance as it goes or create irregular dynamics between pedals. The best test would be guitar, Empress Input Buffer, Amp and see if it does the same thing. You could also consider going with the Vertex Buffer Interface (www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/VBuffInt--vertex-effects-pedalboard-buffer-interface) which basically puts all the buffers under one roof and has the isolation, etc. The Suhr Buffer and being 18V won't resolve this issue I suspect. I don't think it's a headroom thing and the design of the Empress runs at a higher voltage internally as I recall (as our buffer does as well). I think this is an impedance thing or a grounding thing.
@@karantaktawala86 Also remember that Fuzz and Wah should be before the buffer, not after it.
Yup, so the chain is. 2 fuzzes, Wah and then the Empress input then amp
The fx loop is send > TC Corona> delay Reverb and then the Suhr buffer
I have no issues on the fx loop
However I do find that the front is losing that direct to amp response with the volume knob. On 10 it’s sounds pretty identical. But not at 7 🧐
Mason, i currently have a Lehle Sunday Driver for my bass pedalboard as input buffer and going DI out at the end, so no output buffer. I had heard you mention before that the Peterson Strobostomp was a good buffer for bass. Is that still the case? And if so, can i replace the Sunday Driver and just use a strobostomp tuner and get good results?
It's good for a lot of basses because it's so unloaded. Depended on your bass amp it might be a good fit. I think it's around 5M or something like that.
Hi Mason... i always follow your videos so rich of useful and complete information for us tone seekers... i would like to know what do you think about the TC electronic bonafide buffer embedded in the polytune v3... thank you!
It's the same as the stand-alone version. Definitely one of the better ones out there for buffers built into tuners. You'd still need an output buffer however.
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks... at this point getting a stand alone bonafide at the end of the chain would be the obvious choice i guess...
I have a pretty small board and usually have the TC Polytuner at the front with the buffer turned on and the Strymon Flint at the end with Trails turned on. Supposedly the buffer is only on if trails is on.
Although sometimes I put the TC Ditto Looper at the end of the chain, but I assume the Analog Dry through does not negate the buffer from the Flint?
The TC Polytune (with Bona Fide) and the Flint last should be fine if both are in buffered mode or turned on (any pedal "ON" is a buffer true bypass or not). The TC Looper at the end having analog dry means nothing as it relates to this, however when it's on it has a 100 ohm output impedance I think so it's fine to use as well in that place.
In the future, should all pedals come with in & out buffer/true bypass switches or would that overkill? I'm sure that would make them cost more.
Great video! I have 7 pedals on my board, I have the Polytune 3 2nd in the chain (Boss FZ 1-W 1st in the chain) then I have a TC PlethoraX3 2nd to last in the chain (Boss RC10R Looper last). Would you suggest putting the Polytune 3 1st in the chain? I tend to go with never putting anything in front of a fuzz pedal, just curious if anyone had a thought on this. Love the channel!
Great video! Do the wazacraft pedals have improved buffer?
The buffers are the same circuit however they use better versions of the same parts with tighter tolerances.
Hey I had a couple questions. I have a euna on the input that I love, but would a keeley hydra on the output be any good as a buffer? I want a stereo rig but there’s no stereo cleanboost/buffer I can find.
I also wanted to ask if the J Rockett Uni-verb is true bypass if you know? I feel like it might make the signal darker by being in it and If I get the guitar somewhat close to it I can hear the power buzz fluctuating (dunno if that’s just the magnets of my guitar tho)
What's the output impedance? I provided a criteria in the video for what constitutes a quality buffer. How about the Vertex Buffer Interface? It has stereo outputs and transformer isolation: www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/VBuffInt--vertex-effects-pedalboard-buffer-interface
For the Uni-Verb, power it on and maybe sure the footswitches are in bypass, then unplug power. If it still passes signal in bypass, it's true bypass.
Does my TC Hall Of Fame Reverb have to be on to act as a buffer?
Very helpful. If you had a very high quality clean boost pedal at unity gain first in chain, always on, doesn’t that load the guitar and act as a buffer?
Well...some people confuse price and pedigree with high quality. It means nothing unless it spec'd out at 1M input impedance and 100 ohm output impedance as a rough baseline. If it meets that spec and is always on, it could be your input buffer, but you'd still need an output buffer last.
Thanks Mason. So I heard from manufacturer here is what he said. “ Thank you for your inquiry.
Input impedance:1MΩ
Output impedance:100kΩ
Consumption current:5mA
Thank you,
Yusaku @ Shin’s Music”.
I have a Shin’s Music Clean Boost.
So I am guessing you think this would be a good front end buffer for my chain.
Thanks again. By the way I love your patch cables. I probably own about 50 of them.
Thanks for the info.
I use an tc bonafide as an input buffer and have my big sky as my output buffer (four pedals inbetween). Do I need to consider getting another tc bonafide to go after the big sky?
No, this is sufficient if the Big Sky is in buffered mode or always on.
hello, I have a whammy dt and a wha wha Dimebag where should I put the buffer, before them or after?
Thoughts on the Friedman buffer bay? Picked it up years ago with one of their boards before I even understood buffers and haven’t been able to find any specs for it. I believe only one of the 5 or 6 lines is buffered so I’ll still need another buffer anyway, but was curious if you happened to know the specs?
It only has one buffer (an input buffer) and is similar to the Pete Cornish LD-1 which I know a lot of people like, but I don't find it particularly transparent (it has a definitive sound to be sure). My attitude was always to make everything neutral and then you could add color as needed with other pedals or even your input cable from guitar to pedalboard to get more EQ shaping to your taste. It also seems to have some capacitive coupling (resulting in oscillation) if you use jacks that are close together for something like an FX Loop or a Stereo Rig because of the PCB layout. It can be resolved by just using a different set of jacks further apart so isn't too big a deal, but just something I noticed. There is also no isolation in this box either so you'd need your own ISO transformers for multi-amp set ups. I think it's 1M input impedance/1K output impedance.
Thank you, this is exactly what I was looking for! Appreciate you taking the time to explain things in a clear and easily understandable way, love tuning into your vids!
What should i take for bass ?
Everything we stated here would line up for bass. The only variable can be the input impedance on bass amps is much more dependent and can fluctuate from 500K to 10M in some cases.
Any thoughts on using a Providence System Tuner first, then about 4 true bypass pedals and ending the chain with the Chrono Delay? (Or a Free The Tone Flight Time)
Would I still need a buffer?
What about a Univibe? Should that be before a buffer?
Rockboard by warwick offers an Op Amp buffer with an input impedance of 2.2MOhm and an output kmpedance of 1kOhm. what's the sense behind that?
Is the boss waza tuner good enough buffer to start with?
… looks like its a no… answered my question 30 secs after I posted it.
Any idea what buffers are in the Boss 200 series units?
How’s the one in Peterson tuners?
It matches his preferred specs perfectly
Would the Wampler db with buffer at the end of the chain work?
I'm running an ampless rig, going from my ua dream into an apogee symphony usb audio interface. Are there any buffer issues there?
If the UA pedal is on the board and you're going DI to the DAW/Mixer, you should be fine as far as output buffers. Input buffer will still be needed. Your pedalboard isn't running Bluetooth so there is still cable capacitance and the normal factors you'd see with an amp.
What about a digital rig with a DISO+ at the end? Does the DISO+ count as a buffer?
That's a DI, not a buffer.
Thanks for all the tips! couple of Questions:
-How do you feel about a pedal like the 29 pedals Euna, which is not a buffer, but is supposed to replace one?
-What do pedals that feature AD-DA with no analog dry through (example source audio eq2) do in terms of impedance and should we treat them differently?
Cheers!
Drey - 29 Pedals are well built without a doubt. From a pedalboard perspective, however, they have some impracticalities in that: 1) You have to get at least two of them in order to condition your pedalboard from end to end and even more if you run stereo or have an amp with an effects loop. 2) They offer no isolation. 3) They're not true buffers in the sense that they are supposed to have a color by design and offer several EQ options. 4) They unload the guitar - as I recall they're 2M input impedance with is 2x the loading of any tube amp. This is a design decision, but I disagree with it. To summarize, a buffer, in the true sense of what it does, has not color, has no EQ, has no shape other than what comes in, goes out with no change to the signal. I look at these pedals more like high quality EQ's with low output impedances, not so much as a buffer. To condition your mono pedalboard with an input and output buffer from 29 Pedals, it's about $550, maybe $600+ with taxes/shipping. They're separate units, require separate power and take up two pedal spots on your board. I don't see the advantage to make it a better choice than say a Vertex Buffer Interface, Goodwood Audio Interfacer, or any number of buffer/interfaces that exist with high quality buffer circuits. You could say, of course, that I have my own personal bias to favor my own products, but even so, 29 Pedals aren't rig builders that have done it hundreds of times to have a clear understanding of what's the most streamlined way to build and condition a rig from A-Z. They built a high quality product that's got some buzz for sure, but I don't think you'll see these devices in their current form picked up by rig builders because it creates unnecessary issues on the board that still require supplementation to make it work properly in the context of a pro level pedalboard. The Analog Dry Path thing I think is overstated for most and as far as any impedance interaction isn't a concern. Most of the Source Audio stuff is maybe 300 ohms or so output impedance so it's pretty good, but not perfect. The lack of analog dry is pretty overstated I think, and if people are really concerned about it you can always through the pedal in a mixer (to give you the analog dry) and compare what it does or if the impacts of the digital bypass (DSP Bypass) are consequential. Many brands, including Eventide, Line 6, and others don't offer an analog dry path and sell well. Their shortcomings (if any) aren't specifically related to having an analog dry. Bottom line, if you like the functions and sound, I would give it a try. Otherwise you can try the Boss EQ-200 which has similar features and programmability and I think has an analog dry.
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks for the detailed reply! I appreciate what you do 🙏
So...would that mean that active pick ups could drive a certain amount of through bypass pedals without suffering signal loss?
On my large pedalboard, I use a Radial/Tonebone PZ-Select as my input buffer and utility pedal for handling incoming magnetic/electric and piezo/acoustic signals. The literature states that the magnetic/electric channel uses, "Radial's award-winning class A buffering circuit," that can drive long cable runs and true-bypass pedals up to 50 feet without appreciable noise. However, the electric/magnetic channel output impedance is listed as 10k ohms, and you're saying a high quality buffer should have an output impedance of 200 ohms or less. Whatup wit dat?
Jackson, the drag thing could be cool I guess, but really 99.9% of tube amps are all 1M on the input so loading the guitar down is going to get you further away from neutral unless you don't prefer the sound of your guitar plugged into your amp alone. Furthermore, it looks like the output impedance is 10K (that's 100x worse than ideal output impedance a 100-200 ohms). I wouldn't recommend this for a quality line driver that won't suffer significant loss to whatever it's driving on the output (whether that be cables, pedals, or otherwise). www.radialeng.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/PZ-Select-UserGuide.pdf
I was today years old when I learnt that the output buffer in my Neunaber is not low impedance enough.
What do you think of a Boss DD 500 as the last pedal - would you use the buffered out or true bypass with a stand alone buffer - or just buy a Timeline?
I run my dd500 last in my chain set to buffered. Seems to work well for me. That being said I do not run 15 pedals on my board either.
I checked spec'ed out impedance on my EHX 1440 looper, 370 ohms.....which is higher than my UA Golden Reverberator (spec'ed @ 500).
Lower than.
@@VertexEffectsInc lol yes! Lower! I shouldn't TH-cam comment right after waking up 😂
The fulltone enhanced bypass often use high quality buffers
They're not. Not at all close to what I recommend. They're actually not far off from the input section of a Boss buffer in fact.
Is the hotone fat buffer boost pedal any good ?
Can I use Protein as a buffer? 🤔 Jokes and puns aside, I have followed your other buffer tips and have definitely maintained my tone quality. Thanks for another great episode!
The Protein Pedal by Brown Amplification? I wouldn't. It's an overdrive, I wouldn't count on it as a buffer.
I would recommend using Pre-Workout as the input buffer
Do buffer pedals make noise?
How good is the buffer in the fulltone Clyde deluxe wah.
@Max Iokua and @Michael Clark - There is no buffer in it as it relates to a buffer bypass pedal. When you select the "buffer on" on the Clyde it's only active when the pedal is on for the purposes of pairing better with a Fuzz where the sweep of the wah might otherwise be impacted. When the Wah is off, the buffer is off. It does nothing to condition your signal whatsoever. See 38:55 in this video
Didn’t Prince use all Boss pedals?
Yes, (maybe not all, but certainly a lot of) and so does Johnny Marr
Anyone know if a big muff green russian will be fine after a buffer?
What about the boss es8 buffer? Still bad?
Boss is Boss. No “what abouts”
Hey there! I was looking at Xotic's Super Clean Buffer. Give me your honest opinion...
Look at the specs. I provide a criteria for quality buffers. You tell me. What do you see on their spec sheet versus what I recommend? Also, remember on these types of single buffers you need two (one first as the input buffer, one last for the output buffer) even if it does meet the specs criteria.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thank you very much Mason !
then what is a good buffer name?
You already know, Vertex Buffer Interface: www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/VBuffInt--vertex-effects-pedalboard-buffer-interface
So BOSS came out with a pretty amazing new analog delay workstation. DM-101. But the specs show 1M ohm input impedance and 1k output. So my question is, this is perhaps one of BOSS's most state of the art pedals. Why would they put such a "crappy" buffer on it? They (Roland) are one of the most pre-eminent manufacturers in history of effects pedals. Why would they do this if it is so bad, on such an expensive pedal?
Boss has been around for a long time, and their pedals have been used by millions, including plenty of notable rockstars. I’m just going to assume they know what they are doing, and continue buying Boss.
I love boss pedals,I've been using them for many years,only problem is they can be hissing or kinda noisy but they are as useful if not more useful than other clones of the same pedal.affordable.reliable.replacable.
Hi Mason. Thanks for another incredibly informative video. I have a question regarding this subject and would be very grateful for your feedback.
I am running a board with 15 pedals. 3 are buffered; Polytune, Waza FZ-1w, and HOF 2 Reverb. I was happy to hear that those TC pedals have adequate buffers and that FZ pedals handle buffers before ok. Should I place my Polytune before or after my FZ-1w fuzz? If I place my tuner before the fuzz, would the benefits of it’s buffer be negated by the FZ-1w buffer? Or, do you recommend using a true bypass fuzz that is not impedance sensitive in this case?
Depends on what the input impedance of the FZ-1W is, if it's 1M it might be fine first and then put the tuner after and make sure it's in true bypass mode. If the FZ is more loaded down (which is typical of many fuzzes) then you can leave the Polytune first and experiment with buffered/unbuffered mode to see how much it impacts the Fuzz sound.
Thanks for your help! I really value your insight. Fascinating. Looking forward to future videos. All the best!
I have an RJM Effect Gizmo with a built-in buffer, but the specs aren't listed in the manual... it just says "high quality buffer"
Ron and I hear things differently. Their buffer is high quality but I disagree with the input impedance specs (their output impedance specs are great). They chose 500K for the input impedance, but no amps are 500K so they're deliberating loading the guitar down 50% more than what any tube amp is that a guitar player would use.
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks for that info, I might try bypassing it's buffer and using one you recommended.
@@sqlb3rn I don't think it's worth doing that, you can also modify it to 1M easily with a resistor change.
Okay so I'm down. Lets get that out of the way. And also, I own every Digitech and Boss Pedal as of 2023.
Now heres the big divulge:
Buffers are trial and error. Proximity matters, order matters, buffers matter, and your willingness to adapt to the technique for your setup matters. There. I said it. I wish I could say to my past self and tell him to scream it from the rooftops that I should play what I own awesomely. Yes. Play it awesomely instead of acquiring more gear. You've been buying gear for 5 years? Get a Zoom Multieffects for 50 bucks and dont tell anyone. Profit.
maybe because I’m old school.
I’m not saying better or worse. I can’t compare a tube amp to class d amp as they are two different beasts.
Likewise
I have owned so many brands of pedals in my repair life which is over 40 years. And have repaired many collector pedals.
I have to remove my technical hat and use my ears to make my final judgement.
You mentioned strymon which I have owned many. For me they are to sterile. Awesome company but for my tastes not for me. A lossy buffer is also a creation of sound. I personally love jfet buffers.
I still own many boutique pedals, but funny as it may seem I always go back to my boss pedals, and Into a tube amp where the noise floor already sucks it doesn’t matter.
A clinically correct buffer may not achieve the tone you desire.
As for buffers yes they are essential for large pedal boards.
I only mentioned Strymon buffers, because they are better than most of what is out there, in terms of properly, treating the impedance. The JFET stuff is going to change the tone no matter what, that may be what you like, however. Yet, if you have a well-built buffer, it should be totally neutral, and have no artifact whatsoever and you shouldn’t have to resort to using an inferior buffer just to get something that feels good.
Surprised you don’t really mention the buffer + anymore, as far as I know it has all the features you suggest, yet no mention
The Empress? I think it's OK, but there are better options out there now including our Vertex Buffer Interface, so I tend to recommend that as it has a lot more features and better quality buffers in my mind. I think for it's day it was great and unique, but as better stuff came to the market, like the Mesa Boogie Highwire, it became less viable.
@@VertexEffectsInc cheers Mason!
Mason was charitable and somehow found something nice to say about those awful Archetype plugins. They are bland and sterile, just terrible. But I get how you could put a sound like that through a bunch of effects and get something useful. It's also kind of embarrassing how bad those plugins are, yet people acting like they are somehow amazing.
The TC pedals buffered bypass has to be turned on through software.. Fyi
Depends on which model it is. Most of them have internal or external dip switches that don't require USB or software.
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks... I have been using the tone print software and never looked inside.. Thanks for letting me know!