ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 15 มิ.ย. 2024
- In a round-table Q&A, Michael Jones (@InspiringPhilosophy) Braxton Hunter (@BraxtonHunter) and Jon McCray (@whaddoyoumeme) gave their thoughts about the popular atheist argument the Spider-Man fallacy. Popular counter apologist Paulogia (@PaulogiaLive) is a fan of the Spider-Man fallacy and does his best to save it. Is he successful?
Original video: • Does the Bible Prove t...
Help support me: / isjesusalive or paypal.me/isjesusalive for a one-time gift
Amazon wish list: www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls...
Join this channel to get access to perks:
/ @testifyapologetics
Visit my blog: isjesusalive.com
The Spider-Man fallacy, if accepted as true, becomes a universal acid against all written material. Anything presented as fact can just be dismissed and the historical consistency and accuracy of the writer doesn’t matter. Any modern biography can be dismissed. Any historical work can be dismissed, any scientific paper can be dismissed. So what if rows 1-55 in your data table are accurate, it has no bearing on whether row 56 is accurate. I can just dismiss it by saying Lol Spider-Man. Just another case of the skeptic-meter turned to 11 for the Bible.
“But it’s a scientific paper!” Lol appeal to genre.
“They wrote their instead of there” lol dismiss the whole paper as a fabrication
“The paper was attributed to Dr. W” lol other editors might have changed it or the journal only attributes it to him.
“The paper was published in English” lol Dr W speaks Hindi he could never have written in in English.
Their arguments against the Bible erode all human knowledge when applied consistently to other areas. That’s why I don’t take them seriously.
Brilliantly put
Dr. W is a W example name for sure
You know theres a difference between attribution of authorship to an ancient text is different than attribution of authorship by a public and contemporary scientific press that you can contact, right?
Well said! This kind of reasoning, if useful, would destroy historical knowledge writ large
@@Greyz174 what if the author of the paper is lying and it was ghost written?
You missed a golden opportunity to use the Tobey Maguire screaming "NOOOO!" meme in your refutation.
"Heads I win, tails you lose." Yes. That is exactly the way he was arguing. Great video.
Kind of a weird comparison considering we have video of Stan Lee detailing how he came up with Spider-Man and never once does he claim that Spider-Man is a real historical person
It seems we have more background information about the authorship of Spiderman than we do about the biblical authors.
Do we even know who they are?
@@SkepticalMantisCHANNEL10 We have the names of the authors, their professions, their stories of how they knew Jesus or how their sources knew Jesus, character witness accounts of the authors (to the point that we know they died painful and torturous deaths without recanting), as well as a lack of any competing claims of authorship. We don't have as many details as we have of Stan Lee, but neither do we have as much detail about, say, Xenophon. We obviously have an advantage with Stan Lee being in our era, and if we demand that level of background information we will have to throw out everything we know of ancient history, medieval history, the renaissance, and even a ton of the industrial revolution. On the other hand, I don't even need any details on Stan Lee or the making of Spiderman to know Spiderman is fiction, because the comics are stated to be fiction right in their pages.
Now, how much do we need to know about the authors of the Gospels before it is reasonable to think they were written as genuine histories by people involved in the events or on behalf of such people?
You're missing the point of the analogy.
@@StageWatcher No we don't.
@@Whatsisface4 Yes we do.
The BEST rebuttal to Spiderman is that Spiderman has multiple conflictng versions of the stories that cross different eras and ages. They're MUCH more like pagan stories where the key detains mutate. Also, Spiderman says its fiction. And it does NOT give the same level of location detail. Where did that robbery he stopped take place? Why is that police station fictional? Why is it referencing fake events that are huge? Why does nobody believe it at the time, and why is Jesus backed up external sources from the time but Spiderman not?
In a lose sense you can at least say the Spiderman comics can be used as a cultural reference for any historian analyzing it 300 years from now. In the same way we can use pottery, furniture, poetic writings and paintings, to analyze cultures that are no longer with us (i.e. Rome)
Also it has many more things that are provably wrong, like a giant green demon possessed goblin flying around on a metal saucer terrorizing NYC... oh wait that was Governor Andrew Cuomo
@@vohloo9797 the biggest issue with the Spiderman fallacy IMO is the fact that if it was fiction, people wouldn't have believed it bc who would believe in a god, who was a jewish carpenter, who was then crucified and they say he came back from the dead. If they wouldn't have had proof I would honestly laugh my ### off at such a story and tell them that's a good one. If it was fiction, people would have noticed or not believed it bc it's so stupid. And if it was Seen as fiction, when did it transition from fiction to historical beliefs. Along with that let's not Also forget the fact that there was a constant flow of information talking about Jesus Christ like he was real and even the biggest early skeptics of Rome didn't refute, that he did miracles and that he was real.
Kicking a dead horse at its finest.
Edit: “The Spider-Man fallacy should be more dead than Peter Park’s uncle Ben,” 😂 you didn’t have to do Peter like that.
The trend in the TH-cam Atheist Echo-chamber is to misrepresent apologist's arguments so that it makes the creator's argument seem like a big "gotcha". The reality is that it tends to just be click bait for that camp and they don't have to present opponents' arguments honestly, because they know their viewers won't actually pay any attention to the other side. This isn't an error; it's an intentionally misleading representation to make sure they get subscribers and viewers.
@@dachristiangamer I share your view, it is unreasonable to ponder the same subject every day and never come to a conclusion. So let me challenge you to consider this fact from your opponents' point of view: the evidence doesn't seem convincing to them, and when they hear stories about talking snakes, floods, towers, sun's stopping in the sky, dead people walking back into Jerusalem, etc. they don't want to wade through immense amounts of apologetics to try to explain and harmonize the bible stories. It seems almost elitist to ask the average person to be so studious. Yet they are damned to hell for their unbelief because they were satisfied with thinking these are just stories and not interested in studying theology or apologetics.
@@dachristiangamer You wrote a lot, which seems to mean you have thought a lot about this. Thanks for taking the time to do that. At this point, you and I disagree. I have read a lot on both sides, but I tend to agree with evolutionists because to me it seems more consistent with the evidence. In your opinion, I would assume I am wrong. Assuming I am just trying to make sense of all this information, should I be damned to hell for all eternity for coming to a different conclusion than you?
@@dachristiangamer It sounds convincing to those who believe, but can you step outside that for a minute and consider that to those who don't already believe expect it to mean what it plainly says? Should everyone who doesn't have this belief and who can't read Greek or study apologetics go to hell?
@@dachristiangamer I an not a scientist, so I won't waste time refuting your points with my opinion. I read a lot of science, and I think you are misinterpreting what has been established. If you are satisfied with your current understanding of evolutionary science, it's not my job to change your mind. But I would like to know how you explain the existence of endogenous retroviruses and Chromasone 2 apart from evolutionary processes.
Amen! So true
Testify knocks out Bible skeptics with yet another banger!
Every time I hear this I can’t help but wonder what other historical character we can apply this logic to.
Exactly. I care less that they would agree with me, than they would be consistent.
Some TH-camr does the skits "I'm an a-Lincolnist; Abraham Lincoln wasn't real, if you think about it. Let's break this down..." It's really funny.
@@fridge3489 I can’t find it, whats the name?
I'm fine with applying this logic to any other historical character because I approach historical characters with something between indifference and mild interest. Christians approach Jesus with a very different mindset.
@@UnconventionalReasoningformer atheist here, your wrong. And it only works if you assume what we are doing here is pure I BELIEVE SO we are litterraly comparing jesus to other historical figures, litterraly paulogia says well its different because its super natural ! It can be boiled down to that, its literraly being intelectual disonest, and some times he appeals to well it should be this way instead to be absolutely true, thus making criteries if applied to 9/11 no fireman would be an actual martyr or sacrifice, its like dude cmon what world you live in? If i applied the same criteria to anything ever i could "disprove" The whole world, and the only way to prove ir true us with a time machine and witnessing it, but it would be also proof of nothing, even apllying those criterias because he will say ofc i hallucinated! Time machines dont work, what is he gonna do next? Flat earth apologism?
So the extra-biblical content such as Josephus' writings should be regarded as fiction as well because we weren't there, so how could we know? The spider-man fallacy is such a bad argument, I thought atheists were supposed to be the "intellectuals"
It seems consistency isn't a commodity for them.
"I believe that the stories of spiderman were written closer to the year 2200 rather than the 1960s."
"Actually, there are many locations and people who would be relevant to the late 20th and early 21st centuries, so it's safe to say that the stories of spiderman *were* written in the 1960s."
If he admitted that the analogy was faulty, then why does he use it? My brain hurts.
Because it’s catchy enough for midwits to blindly repeat.
Paulogia should stick to the cartoon; I could see the tears well up as he hears how easy his spiderman analogy is to debunk. Something most people don't realize, but in order to appeal to the spiderman fallacy, the speaker assumes a state of illiteracy, that they don't know there are different genres or how to differentiate between them. If there was any legitimacy to the spiderman fallacy, then the Romances of Alexander should be considered historically accurate.
@@dachristiangamer I saw his video “refuting” the resurrection of Jesus. I didn’t realize how unconfident he was of his argument 😂 his face betrays a lot
He doesn't accept the gospels because they were written 40 years after the events? When something has impacted your life in such a tangible way, you're going to remember in detail. I guess this guy doesn't appreciate memoirs and other historical documents written about people in the past 🤷🏼♀️
They do seem determined to misunderstand our arguments at times, don't they?
The "Strawder-Man Fallacy" is when someone uses the Spider-Man analogy to debunk arguments noone ever makes, like "it contains verifiable details therefore the unverifiable details must be reliable no matter what".
The "Scarecrow Fallacy" if you will.
Spider-Man comics also include a TON of other fictional material.
The Daily Bugle, Oz Corp, specific types of technologies that couldn’t exist and STILL have not been developed yet. Not to mention MAJOR crimes that would be recorded in the annals of history through more reputable documents that aren’t comic books. Let’s also include the number of fictional characters and organizations of political significance. Different US Presidents, fictional nations, fictional wars, etc.
The Spider-Man analogy is absurd in every way.
@@authenticallysuperficial9874 hmmm.....I smell the rotting corpse of David Hume
@@authenticallysuperficial9874
Earthquake can definitely be a natural phenomena
Thallus in 50 AD reported the darkness at the time of the crucifixion though he insisted the timing was accidental and was natural phenomena
When atheists portray Matthew's account on saints rising in Jerusalem they misrepresent it in the manner of a World War Z scenario
No, what Matthew is most likely reporting is an undetermined number of recently passed godly saints rising from the dead and interacted with locals who didn't necessarily know them personally and the reason there appears to be a lack of extra biblical mention is because informations weren't spreading quickly and not many may have known about it
@@authenticallysuperficial9874 Surely you're not ignoring the VAST difference in the way people used to keep information and the availability of those ways. Are you really lowering your intellect to make this dumb argument work or do you really not see a problem with it?
And historical novels did not exist to be distributed and read to common people then. Writing a historical narrative meant to be read as fiction in Rome or Nazareth in 50 A. D. doesn't seem to make much sense. Dying by torture rather than admit you wrote fiction seems even more unlikely.
The contradictions of rulers are so strong, none of the early opponents to Christianity, who lived in the Roman Empire and outlawed the religion mentioned them? See, argument from silence goes both ways. For the record, that new objection about contradictions has been answered hundreds of times.
Uncle Ben!! 😢
Too soon, man
When atheists try to invent childish arguments against the existence of Jesus, I kindly remind them the same theories can be applied toward the existence of their own grandparents.
The fact is that the NT accounts for all the data we see in the historical record and no other hypothesis yet has. But for some reason I'm supposed to defer to other ad hoc hypotheses? No thanks.
The fact that Paul of all people is even using this argument shows just how terrible atheist arguments really are against Christian belief. Even what I was an agnostic I could see the problem with the use of this argument and especially the way that Paul particularly uses it. It's fallacious on both sides of its assumptions. This is why Christians all need to think these arguments through and not just accept that atheists have actually taken time to conceptualize these things properly to their fullest extent.
@Zheng Fuukusheng Destroyer of religions that's quite an irrational standard you have sir. You do know that Paul was himself a high pharisee named Saul prior to his conversion right? These are his own words. The only people contesting the validity of his words are only very recently. It seems to me like you have no problem with eye witness testimony until the person claims something that you don't agree could ever happen. That's a personal issue rather than an issue with the historical data.
@Zheng Fuukusheng Destroyer of religions when you have 2 witnesses or more to any event you can infer that where their testimony overlaps that the event played out as much. It appears that you are not dealing in the realm of historical science but in speculation and cynicism rather than skepticism. We have Roman authorities who wrote about many of the same things these individuals wrote about. They at the very least confirm that they existed and that they believed what they said because of their willingness to die for said belief. You need to rethink your epistemology concerning these accounts because by your standard we could never trust anything ever written even in scientific journals. After all, you and I are not the ones conducting these experiments and therefore cannot ever reproduce what is written in their accounts. Please stop undermining your position for your own sake.
@@pigzcanfly444 facts dude. I don’t think this zheng guy has a conscience any more he has fed himself lies for so long, it probably exploded
The verifiable mundane claims of an account don’t make the unverifiable magical claims of the account more likely to be true.
It’s a solid argument that all non-apologist historians agree with.
If you believe in magical claims that have not been demonstrated to be possible just because you want them to be true for emotional reasons then maybe your own standards are unreasonable.😉
@ramigilneas9274 your statements are patently false. It's a known fallacy to use fiction and equivocation it with historical events that were written down. You do realize that all of history is based upon testimony, and the vast majority of it isn't even from eye witnesses, right? So, if we can accept it for the rest of history, then we can accept it in the case of the gospels whose veracity has surpassed all historical documentation by far. If you can not understand the problem, then it may just be you.
I think this is one of your best videos in a while (that’s not to say your other recent videos have not been good). It’s just that this one was very satisfying because it got to the heart of what makes the Spider-Man fallacy such a weak and unconvincing argument. Great job!
I can’t believe you had to make an entire video about this…
"The Spiderman fallacy should be more dead than Peter Parker's Uncle Ben." LOL
It's not a fallacy & this is why it's so easy to laugh at theists. New York exists & that's where the story is set. The bible towns exist & that's where the stories are set. Christians using that because someone had geographical knowledge of the area adds credence to the truth of the Gospels is a very weak argument & this should be given the ridicule it deserves.. When Dillahunty first mentioned this he could have used Tolstoy, his knowledge of 19th Century Russia or Arthur Conlon Doyles knowledge of Victorian London, however given how the argument is so weak, Spiderman fits much better. A weak argument easily brushed away & the fact that it pisses off theists trying to convince people of their far fetched supernatural nonsense it's genius.
In the future people aren't even going to know what a fallacy is, let a lone a Spider-Man fallacy. We sure will know what glazed dounuts are Toy Story 15 are though!
Another great video! I've been thinking about making a video analyzing one of Paulogia's videos myself. I love how easily you disassemble the view and explain why it's flawed and then do a concise recap at the end.
Great video once again!
“Heads I win, tails you lose” Is Paulogias entire business model.
Not to mention the'fact that 'Spider-Man' is PRESENTED, REGARDED, and CALLED *'FICTION'* ALL the bleeding TIME..... 🙄😏
I completely agree that using the apocrypha is a much better comparison! Great job, Erik! 💪
6:04 totally underrated point that I find very convincing, the Spiderman fallacy feels like a damage control tactic, why can’t skeptics just argue on other grounds against the reliability of the Gospels instead of denying the basic reality that we have incredible documents in our hands that have marks of truth all over them???
Very good point
@@adamcosper3308 Ok so the synoptic problem is enough evidence for you to dismiss what exactly? The EVIDENCE of the content of the Gospels is quite impressive in my epistemic view. If you would like to elaborate, tell me how they are not good enough for your epistemic standard of truth and reliability.
@@adamcosper3308 give specific examples.
@@adamcosper3308 you should go into the Olympics the way you dodged that question.
@@adamcosper3308 Ahhh so you dont even care about the truth signs of the Gospels because you just a priori assume they are false due to your metaphysical commitments…looks like we are done here.
The point, it seems to me, is that the details in the Gospels are merely evidence of authorship by people who knew the time and place intimately. The details in Spiderman prove that Stan Lee knows New York City.
Thank you for responding to the analogy video.
Can you make a video on how exactly the early church navigated the different theological decisions? For example the unitarian view vs trinity, there were early debates on both sides.
9:00 the way he so smugly acts as if the late dating hypothesis is fact, in addition with not bothering to find out micheals actual position on the matter (that at least the synoptics were written before 70 A.D)
Thank you, brother
Kind regards Kim
This was helpful, Erik! Could you make a longer video explaining how a dis-unified or schizophrenic view doesn't make sense? I'm still thinking through this. What's to stop the gospel authors from mixing in nuggets of misinformation knowing that they've been pretty truthful for the most part? Or if you know a good article that covers this, I'd appreciate that too.
I've stated it elsewhere but I'll answer it briefly here. In short, if they're mixing in nuggets of misinformation it's going to be where there are miracles, right? That would be Jesus' resurrection and so forth. Well, if Luke is a traveling companion of Paul's (and I've argued at length that he is) then he must have some sort of willingness to suffer and be persecuted along with Paul. I mean, he's with him during a shipwreck and being chased from town to town. Mark is a companion of Peter, there's like a similar thing going on there as Peter was arrested, beaten, almost killed and eventually martyred. John and Matthew are apostles (and I'm happy to make a case for traditional authorship), and they were called on the carpet by the Jewish leaders and beaten. John's brother James was beheaded. Also the mixing in clever lies is just less unified, and more complicated. It's unlikely that they're going to be willing to suffer for things they know are false.
Misinformation doesn't have to be a conscious lie, they could just be mistaken.
7:52 "While there was fiction, it was often crudely written."
_Shows Homer's Iliad_
There are many things you can say about the Iliad. "Overly dramatic" could even be argued. But crudely written? The epic of Troy and Greece spanning 24 books? 15,693 lines in dactylic hexameter? This is crudely written?!
It certainly can't be classed as historical fiction. According to Chat GPT, while Homer's "The Iliad" is a work of epic poetry and mythology, it is not typically categorized as historical fiction in the modern sense. Historical fiction, as a distinct genre, involves the use of historical settings, events, or figures as a backdrop for fictional narratives. The term "historical fiction" is more commonly applied to novels or stories that are specifically created with the intention of blending fictional elements with historical facts.
"The Iliad" is an ancient Greek epic that centers around the mythical events of the Trojan War, featuring gods, heroes, and legendary figures. While it may contain elements inspired by historical events or cultural memories, its primary purpose is not to present a historically accurate account but rather to convey themes, values, and the heroic tradition of ancient Greece.
The concept of historical fiction, as a genre with a deliberate blending of history and fiction, developed much later in literary history. Some consider works like Sir Walter Scott's "Waverley" (1814) or Jane Porter's "Thaddeus of Warsaw" (1803) as early examples of historical fiction in the modern sense. These novels are set in historical contexts and feature fictional characters and events against a backdrop of real historical events.
While "The Iliad" may have historical elements, it is not typically classified as historical fiction because it lacks the intentional blending of historical facts with fictional narrative that characterizes the modern genre.
Nice one Testify, another straw-hair man defeated 🤙
Could they have gotten it from oral tradition coming from the area in which they supposedly happened
This is the argument I’m currently dealing with
If they did then it's some rock solid oral tradition that did not let many details slip through. At which point it hardly matters whether It was written right after, or 100 years after, if they're getting all these details right anyways.
Sorry, when you put up Toby Macguire on the screen, I laughed so much I had to rewind the video to catch what you actually said 😂
But even if you use the specific names & places as your case in 2000 years no one will find any evidence for JJ, MJ, & PP (Peter Parker). But there is evidence for the characters in the gospels.
Bottom line getting those mundane historical details correct lends to the timeliness and credibility of the New Testament and its authors, not count against - as they try in vain to do.
Some people are always going to argue that if it involves a miracle or something supernatural then no amount of evidence or accounts or logic or reasoning will ever suffice. And, I can't say that's a totally insane position. It isn't really. Which makes my next point even more salient: why do these people make an entire career or persona around not believing in something? It's so odd to spend so much of your life and your thinking life on stating in 1,000 different ways how and why you don't believe something. It's so strange. Even when they don't believe in it, they still have to have it in their lives. Kind of telling.
Ad hominem.
But interesting question, most of them see christianity as a kinda hurtfull ideology and are fighting a cultural battle, it has a lot of power over peoples lives, others have more personal reasons againts christianity and because its a hot topic that gets a lot of views (it applies to both sides). But still funny, something that you dont see as truthful to play such a big role in your life...in my case, i consume a lot of this class of theological and skeptic content because i am very skeptic my self but it's still very dificult to drop something as influential in my life and enviorioment as christianity, i just dont want to blindly believe or not believe... probably just my undecisive personality...
Idk I’ve always regarded the Spider-Man analogy and others like it as intending to show that an author’s familiarity with the setting of the story (whether firsthand, sources, etc.) doesn’t necessarily indicate familiarity/ accuracy with/ of the details of the story themselves.
I understand the counter is something like “but it should raise our credence with respect to the details,” to which I think the response is “perhaps, but how much?” I certainly grant that someone with knowledge on the details of the story is more likely to have knowledge of the setting, but is someone with knowledge of the setting significantly more likely to have access to accurate narrative details? Especially when we’re talking about a story (at least initially) as eyebrow raising as the gospels from the atheist perspective? I’m not so sure. Probably should go up a little, but not much for someone with the worldview of a non-Christian.
I think this is tangentially related to the point Eric made when eluding to a potential inconsistency in evaluating accuracies v inaccuracies (heads I win, tails you lose). A piece of evidence may count in favor of one position if present, but not count equally against it if absent. An example might be if I said a prayer and Jesus appeared in front my me, shook my hand, and then wrote down a 100 digit decimal expansion of pi. Surely this would be incredible evidence that Christianity is true (at least for the witness), but I don’t think we’d want to say that the fact this did not occur when I said my prayer just now means that Christianity is almost definitely false.
Yeah, but Christians aren't basing their conclusions entirely on these accurate details like many skeptics dishonesty imply. I couldn't make sense of ur pi prayer analogy, but at any rate I doubt that alone would be conclusive either way. The Bible is deemed reliable because of the evidence that is stacked in its favor vs the evidence stacked against it. The documents still stand the test of time, and anti theists 2000 years later are still looking for a silver bullet. Since they can't find one, all they can do is dismiss, which is exactly how they use the spider man fallacy.
@@arcguardian Well the spider-man analogy is intended as a response to appeals to accurate geographical/ cultural/ broad historical details as reason for regarding the gospels as reliable with respect to the Jesus narrative. So if we have independent reasons for trusting this narrative that's fine, but it doesn't really support the idea that the spider-man analogy is flawed. In my experience people seem to think the analogy is meant as a rebutting defeater as opposed to an undercutting defeater. I largely agree with the thrust of the analogy was my only point, whether the gospels are reliable is a separate question.
@@chipperhippo the analogy seems to be completely flawed in this context. To bring it up as something to nullify the credibility of documents listing accurate things seems a bit absurd, seeing as if it were absolutely it would still have to pass those tests lol. Not to mention the genre of scripture, you'd have to assume the Bible was hundreds of years ahead of its time in literature genre, but then again the skeptic is willing to go anywhere that isn't toward God. It's as credible as suggesting the disciples maybe made it up yet were still willing to die for it. The other reasons for why it's flawed in this context are already covered in the video.
@@arcguardian I don't know if you're understanding what I'm saying, as you seem to have done the thing I warned against in my previous message.
Also I think it's just kind of lame to accuse an entire group of people of delusion and/or dishonesty for arriving at a different conclusion than you; just as shallow as asserting the disciples were simply lying imo. I'm just talking about the application of this analogy, idk why you keep bringing up "skeptics" to disparage them.
@@chipperhippo you make a good point here. It all comes down to the way the analogy is applied. The analogy itself is sound, but it has unfortunately been misrepresented and misused to defend a position that was never under attack.
The truth of the supernatural elements of the gospel narratives is not strengthened by the accuracy of the historical detail contained within those narratives. They are part of a standalone category. That's the crux. That's the point of the analogy. It's been blown out of proportion to look like something it was never intended to be.
I have that exact Bible shown on the left in the thumbnail. It’s the Douay Rheims translation.
As a Christian who loves the Spiderman comics, I'm kinda upset to see them being used to "debunk" Christianity like this.
Glad to see the debunking be debunked, though.
Well Stan Lee wasn't a European, if you get my meaning...
"You could fill up a book..." PLEASE DO (or direct me to one that already exists)
check out testimonies to the truth by lydia mcgrew, or can we trust the gospels? by peter j. williams, or living footnotes in st luke by luuk van de weghe
Seeing Paul’s face without his cartoon makes him more enjoyable and easier to listen to for some reason lol
I enjoy talking to the guy face to face. He's kind of got a different persona with the cartoon, more edgy. I like the chill Paul better.
I wouldnt exactly call the illiad crudely written its not a modern novel but it is really good
Other than that its really good and historians use acts as a historical source all the time.
Hmm, you are wrong. According to Chat GPT, Homer's "The Iliad" is a work of epic poetry and mythology, it is not typically categorized as historical fiction in the modern sense. Historical fiction, as a distinct genre, involves the use of historical settings, events, or figures as a backdrop for fictional narratives. The term "historical fiction" is more commonly applied to novels or stories that are specifically created with the intention of blending fictional elements with historical facts.
"The Iliad" is an ancient Greek epic that centers around the mythical events of the Trojan War, featuring gods, heroes, and legendary figures. While it may contain elements inspired by historical events or cultural memories, its primary purpose is not to present a historically accurate account but rather to convey themes, values, and the heroic tradition of ancient Greece.
The concept of historical fiction, as a genre with a deliberate blending of history and fiction, developed much later in literary history. Some consider works like Sir Walter Scott's "Waverley" (1814) or Jane Porter's "Thaddeus of Warsaw" (1803) as early examples of historical fiction in the modern sense. These novels are set in historical contexts and feature fictional characters and events against a backdrop of real historical events.
While "The Iliad" may have historical elements, it is not typically classified as historical fiction because it lacks the intentional blending of historical facts with fictional narrative that characterizes the modern genre.
Bottom line, its a silly analogy: comic books don't claim to be true, in fact quite the contrary. It is a very unserious rhetorical device. I honestly can't fathom how its survived this long.
Ironically by using this argument they are proving the Bible is true where by proclaiming to be wise they became fools.
Eric, idk if you've already talked about this, but are there any counter-apologists or skeptics you have respect for? People not like Ehrman, Paulogia, Genetically Damaged Skeptic, etc
Wouldn't there be evidence that Spider-Man was created by Stan Lee?
Spider-Man is a stated fiction. It's written in a fictional genre. But most importantly, there's so much counter-evidence against Marvel Comics being an accurate representation of reality that it's not a comparable situation to the Gospels.
Also, as Erick points out, the particulars of the situations are important here. Spider-Man authors referring to a well-known fact like New York's existence doesn't mean much, unlike the subtle historical confirmations of the Gospels. And the motive is different. The Gospels were written as tools of evangelism in a context where they could have been easily refuted. A better comparison would be to something like the "Hitler Diaries" which ended up being exposed for the fraud it was in a relatively short time.
It is amazing when adults men and women say stupid things like comparing biblical historical facts with fiction.
Their stupidity is intolerable.
If we are taking the entirety of the spiderman series into account, textual criticism would show that spiderman was indeed fiction, even if we didn't have the knowledge that spiderman is intended to be fiction. For example, Kingpin and his businesses in spiderman would not be reflected in business records in NYC (the setting of spiderman) during the time, nor the heavy power draw on the grid when he opened the doorway to the multiverse in Into the Spiderverse. Older Spiderman comics that make mention of the Twin Towers, or the Empire State building being the tallest, would be only applicable at their time, but other spiderman comics set contemporaneously after such locations and information being valid.
0:06 out of concern I have to ask; Is Paulogia transitioning?
Idk if you take video requests, but I'd love one about non-resistant non-believers.
Like a thief in the night
He arrives just in time.
Spiderman! Spiderman! ... Here comes the Sliderman!
(I had to add that. Now we can go back to being serious.)
Fallacies, 'fore your eyes,
He's just runs on thin ice,
Sliderman! Sliderman! etc.
Thank you
SMH my head cognitive dissonance.
IKR right?
@@MatthewFearnley you picking up on my sarcasm isn’t fair since you know who I am 😂
The Spider-man fallacy is one of those that immediately falls when you think about it for a bit. First of all, the genres are different, one is being passed off as a historical biography the other as fiction. Spider-man's contents while having some elements grounded reality have far more fictitious elements where our non oral culture would have recorded them as newspapers, videos, books etc. Also outside material for NT confirms SOME historical aspects of the material, (e.g. Romans confirming the crucifixion, Jewish sources claiming that Jesus learned magic in Egypt), while outside material for spider-man all show that it is a deliberate work of fiction.
A better analogy would be historical fiction, as a writer would want to ground their story in history, however the surrounding context of the work would still show its fiction. Unless somehow all documentation about the work are lost to time, which is unlikely.
It's so nonsensical, especially when you consider that the person that CREATED the stories existed during our life time and that in every comic book ever made there is the credits of the people that comprised it. Essentially making it so that we can obviously say it's a work of fiction.
As you said there is historicity for the existence of Jesus in different historical sources, that prove his influence was so great that he had a multitude of people following him and the people that knew him/believed in him were willing to risk their lives so other people learned of his message. Even non christian sources talk about his miracles, though attributing it to magic, since they don't want say it's from his divinity. At best what you can say about the web slinger is that they are great stories that talk about the human condition, but the writing can easily be attributed to Stan Lee or whoever wrote that issue/run.
@Voh Loo yeah exactly, I don't understand how skeptics don't see this.
I think that even to take the example of spider man at face value it does help the apologists case because it establishes Stan Lees knowledge of New York from his firsthand experiences of having lived there and being familiar with the setting. This corroborates with the Christian claim that the gospel authors, or their sources were familiar with the region and time that they were writing about.
It’s so exhaustive that Paulogia really doesn’t see his error in using the Spider-Man fallacy. At like 10:28 he says, “it’s simply to say, that if you think because it gets names and places right, the stories must be true, I think that’s why it works” it’s like, no one is saying that?? In fact apologists aren’t even remotely close to claiming that. It’s simply just to say, this is evidence that the gospel writers were likely very close to the facts, even eye witnesses, and this is what they’re claiming actually happened. Of course that doesn’t mean this is proof that the claims are true. But it’s an evidential chip in favor of christianity, specifically of the reliability and eye witness nature of the gospels. I just don’t get why that’s so hard to grasp.
well said.
I think that is the problem for Paulogia though. He said that he presents a view that the accounts were embellished over time into legend. I think it is hard to keep that view and admit that the historical details are right there next to the miracles.
@Zheng Fuukusheng Destroyer of religions in case you didn't know this papyrus was very difficult to come by back then and it took weeks to make by hand. Only knowledgeable people skilled in doing such would have done so let alone write because not many people were educated in writ. We would expect someone like Luke a physician and historian to be able to. We would expect Matthew the Tax collector to be able to and of course Paul who was once a high pharisee to be trained on this. It's also possible that the method was taught and passed to John or he grew up in such circumstances that he knew how to do it himself. The 500 witnesses were contemporary and obviously christianity spread like wildfire across the Roman empire during a period when people had every reason to reject it unless what was written about it was true. Can you point to a single religion that has survived massive persecution to its original followers that has survived to this day? I'm not aware of any. Can you explain how so many people concluded that Jesus was God, including his mother and half-brother James? What would it take to convince you that your family member was God in the flesh? Please think more carefully about this than it appears you have.
@@zhengfuukusheng9238 it’s almost comical that you could comment such a thing.
Could I have the contact details of Alexander the Great’s Greek soldiers? I’d like to interview them myself, oh I can’t interview them?? They must not have existed.
^^ that’s what your comment sounds like
//1:08 "... because everyone knows that Ironman is a fictional character ..."//
In 500 years though, many people might be claiming that Ironman was a real character while many others may deny it. If the supporters of 'real character' Ironman in that 500 year future claim that the use of real names, real dates, and real places are evidences for the reality of Ironman, then the deniers in that future time will point to fictional literature of their own day in 500 years time to make the obvious point. The obvious point will be that real names, dates and places mean nothing, and they will point to the fictional literature of their own time to demonstrate that this is so.
In both fiction and non fiction, real names, places and dates are easily used, just as in both fiction and non fiction, false names, dates and places can be used.
The deniers are simply showing how real names, places and dates can be useless as evidence when context is not considered.
Maybe we should invent a few new fallacies.
For example:
The "undesigned coincidence“ fallacy… or the "verifiable mundane claims of an account make the unverifiable magical claims of the account more likely to be true“ fallacy.
Maybe a little bit long.😂
Has Paulogia ever responded to any of your videos?
We've talked in his live channel and on MythVision
I think the writings of einstine are false. Not because they can be proven incorrect but because spiderman could potentially be interperated in the future as earths history.
I liked this video, but Testify you seem to make one big error here about 4:40 in. You say that "you're not saying that because the Gospel authors got a lot of difficult things right that therefore the miracles are true. That definitely would be silly." And then the funny clip saying "Ah, nobody says that". Love that clip btw. So maybe YOU'RE not saying that, but I hear it a lot. There are definitely A LOT of Christians out there that say that exact thing. A lot of them. To say "nobody says that" is to completely ignore why the Spiderman analogy is used in the first place. It's used for these people. And you seem to agree that it's a good argument against people who say that. You're simply just denying that there are Christians that say that.
And that is simply not true. I know I only use it against people who say that. And contrary to what you say there are a lot of them. I have no doubt that there are atheists out there that misuse the Spiderman analogy. Probably a lot of them. But for you to claim that there are NO Christians out there that use the factual things in the Bible as evidence for the miraculous things is just being disingenuous. Atheists can make mistakes here, but "nobody" on your side does. This is where your argument fails here.
So, anyone willing to die because read Spiderman comic books ?
Are you suggesting that if there were it would somehow make them more true? Is there some connection between the truth and the amount of people willing to die for it? You wouldn’t want to start keeping score with Islam if you are...
@@mookiewilson4166 yup,
So u willing to die for Spiderman comic books ? And why ?
@@insanelogical8996 Sure, I’ll play. Yes, because it’s true, just like Islam. Because as you said, a willingness to die for a belief is a reliable indicator of how true that belief is.
@@mookiewilson4166 and why u don't willing to die for moslem book or Bible if u willing to die for Spiderman comic book ?
Is it mr. Dillahunty argues that Bible or moslem book are same with Spiderman comic book ?
@@insanelogical8996 I am willing to die for Islam, because it’s true. It’s true because there are so many people willing to die for it, like you said.
Glory To The Triune God
You did not have to say that about Uncle Ben 😭
11:10 You are leaving out that satire actually does mime history.
Lucian whom you mentioned was in fact a satirist.
When it comes to Josephus, his being a historian for Antiquities is because he reformulates with explanations to a Roman audience the Biblical history, and with his Jewish war, he tells a history which Jews up to this day commemorate by a glass being shattered at weddings, to mourn for the shattered temple.
If Lucian's biography of Demonax is a biography or a satire is difficult to know. For _Walden_ being bona fide autobiographic, we have the testimony of the Transcendentals. Thoreau knew Emerson.
We probably to this day have people intellectually in a straight lineage of discipleship from Thoreau and Emerson. We certainly have a tradition by editors.
the analogy really doesn't make sense and the fact he has to switch to the criminal analogy defeats his main point that the author wasn't contemporary or local to the time and place.
simply put the authors of Spiderman have easy access to data on new York, he is proposing that the authors did not. so yes using the Quran as an analogy would be a sustainably better choice for what he is arguing. heck even Josephus gets facts wrong, facts he lived though but he knew details that only a person who lived though it would have known. yet to my knowledge he nor anyone else really argues that Josephus wasn't a native to Israel, or didn't live though the revolt. But it would make much more sense for him to argue that the Gospels were written by people who lived though those events but are propagandistic in nature.
Right. The entire point of these videos is not "because of these historical details the Gospels are completely true" but rather "this particular argument that the Gospels aren't credible because they were written decades later doesn't hold water.
It's kind of like how Thor Heyerdahl sailed across the pacific on an ancient-Peruvian-make raft to prove ancient Peruvians could have populated Polynesia. His theory wasn't completely correct, but not for the reason of Peruvians COULDN'T have make the voyage.
0:00, 0:07, 0:08, 0:12, 3:51 Spiderman Fallacy*
Any plans to make a video about the lost gospel Q? (Q source)
Ow, it hurts me when you said ancient fiction was a thing but it was… poorly written and you had image of the Iliad. Oof, right in my feels.
The thing is Spider Man was made by one person that's favorable to him. While King Jesus' existence was proven by even those who are not Christians like Josephus and Tacitus
Question I as a theist that’s deconstructing pray that God would make these miracles like in the book of acts. Occur as frequently to where we could start seeing this happen in everywhere. Do you?
The only time miracles occured "frequently" at least in an obtuse obvious way; was when during Jesus ministry, and resurrection, and the years of his apostles spreading the story. As his apostles were distinctly given God given ability to perform miracles in Jesus name.
Outside of that Stent you would mabey get a prophet here, and there who performed miracles from God, but these instances would be separated by tens if not hundreds of years, and located in distinct geographical locals. Wasn't happening everywhere when. It did happen. The only other large concentration of miracles in the Bible in a relatively short timeframe was during the exodus. And the subsequent wandering for 40 years.
Outside of that time, most people, even isrealites didn't witness a distinct obvious supernatural miracle from God in their lifetimes.
Now I make the point of distinct because things like miraculous healings occure even today under religious experience/contexts, but it's not as obtuse in your face like a wall of fire raining down from heaven to stop an army, or Jesus outright curing blindness, or paralysis with a touch and claiming it from his own authority.
Most of the modern miracles are more like a person prays to God, and has a experience with him, and is healed from some given infirmity. I think that regular occurrence of stuff like that is proof enough, but since it's a personal experience with either no, or small amounts of witnesses for any given 1 miracle, then skeptics can take that amount of ambiguity and run with it claiming that it's not supernatural. We may not know what it 3xactly was. But couldn't be supernatural. The person only thought that it was.
@@anthonypolonkay2681 So what I struggle with is how inconsistent God is if you are correct. God stopped a lot of miracles outside of the apostolic age why? If miracles help people believe why not continue it?
The idea that God stopped them makes no sense. The God of the Bible is a scientific God who used physics, biology, and chemistry when making the first cell. So why stop the miracles?
@@omnikevlar2338 he didn't though? Did you read my whole comment? Throughput the recorded history of the Bible there are hundreds of years were God is just not actively performing these types of miracles.
Based on the bibles records of miracles you are overwhelmingly more likly to live in a time, or place where these miracles are not occurring than in a place where they are.
Which is probably the case for most of us right now.
As for why doesn't God just do miraculous things at every turn possible to help people, there's a simple answer, because it would largely get rid of the consiquence of our actions as beings with free will.
Part of free will is that our actions and choices affect us, and the world, and others around us. If God just healed every single person who was harmed in any kind of accident, or whatever that would largely destroy consiquence as a realized force in the world, which significantly diminishes the significance of free will, just like how being able to respon in games nullify any consiquence death has in said games.
Now this kinda comes with the stipulation that in perfected creation God likly would actively correct any kind of injury or whatever that occurs to people, this would not destroy consiquence in this instance since if the creation was perfect it means nobody had yet sinned to cause it to fall. As a consiquence for not sinning creation remains perfected, and good things in plenty are able to come from that. The only reason horrible things are possible at all is because we're sinfull and in active rebellion against God. That point becomes mute if everyone gets miracles out of anything bad that ever happens to them.
@@anthonypolonkay2681 So this idea that we would have 100s of years of no miracles in the new covenant theologically makes no sense. If people have authority by the billions for believing in Jesus I would predict more miracles.
Now in terms of God giving us free will. By that logic God took away the free will of the people walking in the public streets of Palestine in the 1st century. God took away Paul’s free will. This idea that God has favorites when He desires us all to be saved (2 Peter 3:9) makes no sense.
@@omnikevlar2338 Jesus didn't promis every person who believed in him miraculous capabilities. Some twist it into that. But the only individuals Jesus guaranteed miraculous capability to were his apostles,
Also there aren't no miracles since christ, there's been plenty, they just get written off by materialists as "well it's just a coincident and while we may not understand what happened yet, someday we wil"
Even though the track record of that is very poor.
And free will is only diminished when there is a constant guaranty of freedom from consiquence. It's not diminished if someone here and there is healed by God for whatever reason he deems. It is diminished if all it took was becoming a Christian and now every time you broke your arm, or got sick God healed you. Because then your faith is for service reasons, and not for the reasons it should be. And Jesus performing miracles and feats of power to prove he is God to the people of the first century was not taking away free will, because he wasn't giving people get out of bad situation/circumstances free cards with it. He healed people for only 2 reasons, as a response to faith, and to prove he was who he said he was in times it was needed.
11:46 Here is the exact point. For Justin martyr's testimony to be valid argument, we need to rely on _tradition_ since he was born around when the last apostle died. And not in the same place.
Paulogia can't even get the basic facts right like the dating of the writing of the Gospels, why does he think he has anything of substance to say?
wait I know this is tongue in cheek so i don't know how serious you are on all of this, but do you think the dating of the gospels is a basic fact?
@@Greyz174 the basic time period is a fact. From whatever decade to whatever decade. 🤷♂
@@Swiftninjatrev what basic time period are you referring to? do you mean the 70s for Mark, 80s for Matthew, etc?
@@Greyz174 I left it blank cuz I don't remember at the moment lol. But if that's the dates historians talk about yes.
@@Swiftninjatrev okok, if you're on the same page about what most historians say then yeah and Paul isn't wrong because he's going with the consensus here. looks like the original commenter is saying he's wrong though, I was wondering if he thinks it's obvious they were written before or something
Another thing to point out, is that Legends and myths form and evolve over hundreds of years. Even if we go with the latest dating of the Gospels, that would put them around 40 years after the events... That timespam is hardly enough to allow some myths and legends to develop in such a rich and detailed way. And if we go with the conservative dating of the Gospels, such as Mark being written only around 20 years after the events, the odds of everything being just a legend become even less likely.
Toby!!! Lol
9:44 Legends usually _are_ anchored in actual events - of the same type.
is the flood global or regional?
I believe we have good evidence it was regional. Watch the mini-series inspiring philosophy made on the issue
Regional
This kind of thing is why I have little to no respect for most if not all TH-cam atheists.
Always discussing in bad faith with bad arguments
@@adamcosper3308 Interesting. I don't tend to find it of the ones I watch, but there are definitely some I don't watch specifically because I feel the same way about them as I do about every atheist TH-camr I have come across.
If I looked like Paulogia I would be an atheist too. Poor guy.
please don't insult the people whose I am criticizing.
Wow this was funny. Clever insult. Ik it's wrong but this was great
Why don't the apocryphal writings steal facts from the Gospels?
Because people weren’t writing thinking, “Man, I sure need to include accurate details from the first century so that people almost 2,000 years in the future will be fooled into thinking that I was writing in the first century!” Rather, they were writing to make theological points. The point is that they were simply writing from what they knew. Thus, while the pseudepigraphical writings betray their late date via their lack of accurate knowledge of the 1st-century Meditteranean world and more specifically the culture and geography of 1st-century Judea and Galilee, the canonical Gospel authors betray accurate knowledge of meticulous details of that subject matter. At the very least, that paints a picture of the canonical Gospel authors as men who lived in the first century and as men who knew enough to report accurate information about the area and time period.
Funny, but if the atheist multiverse theory is true, then maybe there is a universe with Spider-Man in it.
I would have to ask the person talking about the Spider-Man theory or thought experiment ... Did the producer or writer of Spider-Man have to then spend the rest of his life running from the authorities that were going to kill him because he wrote it, did he spend the rest of his life persecuted and condemned over it, was he in fact in the end killed because he wrote Spider-Man???? The answer is no. The next question is do you think the writer of Spider-Man would have written Spider-Man had he known he would be killed for it? And if you say it's possible then I would say is it possible that every single person involved with making the movie Spider-Man would have chosen to be killed for it? So now you have the principal I just brought up times let's say a hundred. The end you can throw that Spider-Man crap in the garbage. That is a terrible counter. However it is very interesting when you link it to how historians get things wrong. That much is true. This is not a new concept there's a book called hotel mysteries that touches on it. In the book in one part they talk about archaeologists finding a toilet which apparently in this future world there is no such thing as toilets. The scientists then go on a rant about how it was used for worshiping gods, maybe some sacrifices, and often used as a prayer altar. Lol However that kind of obscurity has no place in apologetics. No one is debating daft things like that.
Using these criteria an atheist would have to discount every single other historical sources existence. Just say rewrite history so often in their own heads, I wonder if that's the goal. Never assume someone who uses the Spider-Man analogy is arguing in good faith.
The Quirinius comment is ambiguous, leading to incorrect translations. The proper translation is "directly before" not "at the very beginning of" Quirinius' governance.
Thank you for making these videos! It seems like Paulogia and his comrades make their arguments in a bubble, ignoring the mountains of actual evidence and the CONTEXT of Christianity (Hebrew and Greek law, culture, etc.)
@@adamcosper3308 we can agree to disagree, but honestly, most of what we believe is so distorted and twisted to fit the assumption that we Christians are so dumb and you Atheists/Agnostic are so super smart. We are not the brain numbed idiots we are portrayed in most movies and TV shows (Righteous Gemstones, Big Bang Theory, even The Last of Us ep 1). While I may watch and even enjoy some of these shows it is VERY CLEAR that Atheists/Agnostics have no idea why we believe so they resort to insults and mischaracterizations. Hey, we Christians can do this as well with some of our lame movies when we portray non-Christians as 1 dimensional "sinners" with no redeeming values.
☀️ 😊
The only way the spider man situation would be = the gospel is, if people said: Stan Lee most likely didn't exist, didn't live in New York, and wrote spider man 60 years after its publication.
Thank God for the videos you put out Testify. Edit: Paulogia should have just stuck with his cartoon instead of showing his actual face. He looked more intimidating with his cartoon while he looks sad and depressed with his real face. Anyways nice video as always Paulogia.
Paul really shows a lack of knowledge here with regards to a number of things, not least the qur'an. The qur'an is not a historic document. It is a document of nonsense crap cobbled together in a way that makes no sense. If you actually read it, there is nothing that makes sense and it makes the Gospels look like the amazing work they are.
If you want the history of Islam you have to go to the sunnah and haddith. They are equally bad being a random collection of sayings compiled about 200 years later. Again, the Gospels look absolutely great in comparison.
Perhaps Paul really needs to learn about things before spouting nonsense abiut stuff he clearly does not understand.
Ironically Atheists arguing for an infinite multiverse to refute fine tuning DOES imply spider man in some tiny tiny portion of them. Also pink unicorns in some of them...and since we can't see these other universes Atheist's are thus proving the existence of Invisible Pink Unicorns with this supposed rebuttal against fine tuning.
Never thought of it that way
@@grubblewubbles Not surprising. The polemics of Atheism requires two distinct systems of Epistemology. One system to debunk what they don't like and in this system they can use absurd techniques like appeals to multiverses to explain observations in this universe. But the other system is just to assume they are right for being the "null hypothesis". If any grounds is asked them they will appeal to bucket 1 to debunk alternatives.
...oh forgot to bring my point home. Its not surprising because we are used to only Atheists using such absurd kinds of arguments. But it is a fun game to use their own system of debunking on them.
Coming back to this comment, I realized an issue. If there are infinite multiverses, then Spiderman or unicorns wouldn't exist in a "tiny portion" of them, because you can't take a portion out of infinity (i.e infinity-10= infinity). They would just exist in a vast number of them. Minor nitpick about the wording
@@grubblewubbles Suppose there was a Hilbert's Casino next to Hilbert's Hotel. In this casino a black jack dealer shuffles an infinite number of decks together. You are at his black jack table and get a king and a queen such that you are at 20. Would you take another hit because there are an infinite number of aces or would you stay at 20 because those aces are only a small portion of the cards left to deal?
❤🙏❤🙏❤🙏❤