with every video I watch I realize how little I actually know and how much enjoyment there is in learning new things! thanks Michael for all the effort and hard work you put into teaching or debating everything, cheers mate!
In a small club environment with only two subs (low stage so impractical to make a center cardioid array) would you bite the bullet and roll with the L/R spaced pair, or would you prefer, assuming it could be done without ruining the aesthetic or compromising stage space, to stack both (either in a cardioid array or in a simple omni stack) on one side of the stage?
I'm a DJ and I often have to do big school Grads with 1500 plus guests. Schools don't have huge budgets, so I can't charge them enough to allow me to rent extra gear and have to make the best of what I have. I can cover the mid/highs no problem but of course kids that age want lots of hip hop and lots of low end. I have 2 older QSC hpr181i subs that I usually put together side by side in front of center stage with the mid/high's at the left and right. It sounds OK (even though I have to spend all night removing peoples drinks from the subs). I also have 2 older Mackie SWA1501's. Is there any way I could incorporate those into the setup for a little more bass coverage or would that cause problems? Any feedback would be appreciated!
Hi, fantastic videos! With a traditional either side of stage LR 2sub 2 top config I normally just run a single L output to the `L sub and single high pass to my L top and vice versa for the R. However I recently started experimenting with cluster my 2 subs, with some cautious success; and now have bought a 3rd sub which I hope to try this weekend as a small outdoor festival. My question is how best to connect the subs from the desk when clustered. Is a L sub L top / then a R sub R top still best (with a full range pass through from one sub to the extra 3rd sub) or is it best to run dual L&R signals from the desk into one sub, high pass L & R to the tops but then pass through both L&R to the additional subs? I generally run mono mixes for the bands but if a stereo source (DJ) I guess the single to each subs could be different if only running a `L or R from the desk. I’m looking to get the subs to work in harmony together, take full advance of the clustering benefits which I guess is only really achieved if all subs are getting exactly the same signal? And that would mean both L&R in and more cables! Thanks in advance
Awesome video, I have 2 qsc la108 per side and one qsc ks118 preside, if I add another ks118 per side cardioid will that help me have more directional or separating them 5ft apart like you said, LR scenario
Hi Michael, I would be curious to know your opinion about "Dave Rat's technique" for LR subs, which consists of sending different signals to both sides (for instance kick in + bass DI to sub Left and kick out + bass cabinet to sub Right) to minimize the interactions between both stacks and so minimize power alleys and valleys. I personally use that when I have to go subs LR, and find it quite efficient concerning wide tonal inconsistencies, but I'd like your input about that. Thanks Louis
Hey, Louis. Great question. Yes I'm familiar with Dave's technique and I think there's some merit to it, but I usually don't have the luxury of being able to double mic or take two sources from everything. I also don't think the amount of de-correlation that happens is all that much, but i've never measured it so I could be wrong here : ) It also makes it tough to mix a program/record feed since your board mix has everything panned out to make the PA sound better, but will have to think and mix differently for every other destination. Just my two cents!
Yeah, I was going to bring that one up too! If you're sending subs via a matrix, you can do a L/R split as per Louis's post. You'd only need to set this up once on your console and could recall it every time. Just found your channel Michael. Great content!!
Like a comment in here already, I'm also a DJ. I have 4 18's 4 b52's. The subs are 2 each side stacked, along with the b52s, same stacking. They're right next to each other LR of me. I'd say they are 60 feet apart from each other. I've tinkered a lot with sound lately, and have them sounding pretty decent as far as coverage goes. What I'm not understanding is how I can create more bump towards the dance floor. I don't care about the sound hitting me on stage because I got mic adjustment down without any chance of feedback. Hours spent researching that and talking to people with 20+ yrs exp. IF you could relay any options please lmk. I've watched your videos on aux vs non-aux. I'm currently using aux. The settings on back of subs have 2 knobs for boosting 40-70hz i belive and 50-120? also there is a phase reverese and normal along with boost. THey are powered on their own, and I'm running aux into one of the subs left side, thru to top in, from there, thru to the other subs in, and thru from the sub with th at connection. In x-air there is a setting to enable "LR" .. and I notice a considerable jump in high end when I enable this. I"m assuming its pulling more sound that way, not sure. Any advice would help, if you need more info, just lmk. If you can't answer due to contract or obligations for money, I understand completely, but it doesn't hurt to ask. THanks man! Keep it going! Maybe I'll discover or understand what I'm looking for when I'm scouring through the MANY tutorials here
Hey. I was wondering... what manufacturer do you prefer if you have a choice to pick one to work with their sound system. I personally am fan of L'acoustics but never had a chance to actually find out which one is the better overral product... So top tear brand if you have a choice what ever you can choose... p.s. I do realise that top tear brands have fine margins against each other and picking one doesn't mean other brands are no good... just out of curiosity I want to hear opinion of an unbiast professional :) Cheers :) (sry for eventual typos, if you speak croatian it would be much easyer for me haha )
Do you have any info on distance from the back wall in L / R setups or in rooms without a flat back wall? I'm a mobile DJ with 2 KW181s and struggle with how far away from the wall to place them based on the room. It's almost always closer and often in a corner or non-flat wall.
If I'm playing an outdoor gig, or there's a stage that I can put the subs together in front of it, that's my favorite choice, small clubs where we're on the floor or real close to it, subs on the sides are just really convenient
Yes, convenience and aesthetic definitely play into sound system design choices, for sure. That's why it's so important to have several known setups in your arsenal so you can adapt to any show or venue.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio seeing the graphics really helps to illustrate what I've been told about sub placement for the years, appreciate your time putting this together
What setup do you suggest for 2 speakers and 1 sub or 2 subs when there is no stage but a dj booth facing the crowd and at the same dancefloor level, as you said people sometimes talks about what they see instead of what they hear, is it ok to setup 1 sub behind the dj booth or will it be messing the audio quality considering that the dj booth is a led display and putting a sub in front of it may not be a great idea for a visual quality-aestethic feel
Im very new to this but i have question. When you loop from the mid speakers to the sub, will you be able to dedicate lets say, sounds that you want to be heard from the subs exclusively like the kickdrum to the subs only? I was under the impression that you only loop same type/ use speakers eg Monitors,mids, subs..but not accross each other.
Would it be helpful, if we space the LR sub around 30 feet and change the croasover setting. L sub from 30hz to 50hz. R sub from 50hz to 80hz. Please enlighten, thanks
I've seen this done in a flown sub vs ground stacked situation, where the floor subs are "infra" subs (covering the very low frequencies), but not in a horizontal setting. Could be interesting, but the imagining of the low end would feel pretty weird. And those on the far left and right of your audience would feel a "hole" in the low end since they're far from the other sub dishing out that part of the spectrum.
Am wondering if using 2 Yamaha DXR 15's are better for outdoor gig rather than 2 QSC 12.2's since there may be better bass with larger speakers? Plan to use 2 QSC 118s center stage. Thanks!
Great tutorial Micheal, Thanks!!! I would like to know what is the best set up with 2 cardioids k212c mount with top on it. Is left right makes gaps also when it's cardioid? Also, I've heard you about phasing top with the sub. What should I look about to make sure my set up is phased? I have as top RCF art 932.
The best way would be to measure your setup and compare the phase traces of your mains and subs throughout their crossover region. And to your first point, yes you will still have power alleys an valleys with a left/right cardioid setup since they're still physically displaced.
Experiment with a stereo sub array. Insert 32 band graphic on each array and cut every other frequency on one graphic. On the other skip the cut frequencies and drop those. I believe this was known as Aardvarking back in the day.
I've heard of this technique, but have never tried it. From a "theoretical" standpoint I'm skeptical, but it may totally work! There's a research team (at some university I can't remember the name of) currently working on a proprietary decorrelation algorithm that can be undetectable on headphones and be applied to stereo sub setups. Last I heard they were close to having it done, but just had to get the latency down.
I've run that setup all the time and really like it! Even better if you can sneak a small front fill on top of the two center subs so you can get some HF localization there.
Love your channel very informative 👍. Let's us put this scenario together. Without the lighting company in the back and the stacked subs are in cardioid mode would that allow for less power alleys at 100hz and also less bass in the rear of the stage. At just looking at the image at 19:18 (I think that is the time reference) you have a power alley cardioid-ish shape turned sideways. So I am guessing if we where to cardioid the left and right subs would we get more low end frequency moving forward. Thank you for your time RobertJean-Louis aka Lordblanca
I'm not sure I 100% understand your question, but let me give it a shot! I think what you're referring to is me placing each of the subs in the L/R sub arrays 5ft apart from each other, which will narrow the pattern it creates, therefore making less overlap and interference between the two sub arrays. You could also do this with natively cardioid subs, or use four subs in stacked configuration to get both the cancellation in the rear AND the narrowing of the coverage pattern.
If the stage is narrow (12ft or less) I think that's a good idea. Any wider than that than the low end image starts to feel lop-sided. It also depends on your audience size. Best thing to do is to test on-site and so which set of tradeoffs you'd rather have.
What do you think of the approach of placing all subs on either the left or right side when placing them in the center is not an option as explained on the alpha sound TH-cam channel?
I'd definitely want to A/B it in that specific room if I went with that approach, but it's a valid one as long as the stage isn't super crazy wide. It's also helpful if the audience isn't super close to the stage, so the range range ratio isn't as bad.
Hello. I have an installation consisting of 2 dynacord fx20 horn loaded basses and 2 fx12 horn tops. in my installation they go L-R bass-top, bass-top. I mention that I don't have a suspension scaffold for tops and I use a spacer from the subwoofer to suspend the top. please help me with a layout of the speakers to avoid bass cancellations. at what distance is it best to put the collars between them to avoid frequency cancellations. thanks
Hi Mike, I have 4 Ekx 18sp, 2 Ekx 15p and 2 Etx 12p for 350 to max 500 people. What’s the best set up for these speakers i have…? 2 Ekx 18sp stack on top of each other with Ekx 15p on top on both sides, crossover to each other or 2 Ekx 18sp stack on top of each other with Etx 12p on top on both sides, crossover to 100hz
It depends on your audience shape and if you're able to place your subs in the center, but if you're covering a normal square dance floor I'd run your subs in the center. Do two of them right next to each other with the other two stacked on top. Very similar to this setup - th-cam.com/video/Q4ny703u-ks/w-d-xo.html Then have your EKX 15P speaker as your mains covering their half of the dance floor. Then use the ETX 12P's as front fills or outfills. Reference this video - th-cam.com/video/OeaMtRvIysM/w-d-xo.html
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thank you very much for your answer, I got the same answer too but your explanation is just better and i am definitely greatly for your time and idea.
Love your channel! Thank you for putting out all this info. I just purchased a budget mini line array system. It has two stacks of four top arrays with a 12” sub. The problem is that there is no crossover so all elements will be full range… is there a way to crossover with adding an external amp or another sub? Or anything else I can get? Or is there not something to even worry about? This will be mostly for dance music events less than 200 ppl. The RMS is supposably 1000 watts. The unit is called the Proreck AEF club system. Any info or advice is hugely appreciated.
Almost all of them are the GIK Acoustics Monster Bass Traps. - www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-monster-bass-trap-flexrange-technology/ I also have three of the freestanding versions that go in front of my closet doors and entrance door. In the front of the room I also have some soffit bass traps that line the floor and vertically stacked in the corners.
thanks for all your good teachings, keep up the good work, hopefully you can answer my question I have 2 RCF 8004 subs which I use mostly left right in line with my HDL 10A tops and when I walk the audience I can tell where the alleys and valleys are, my question is can I move them to the center and add a KW181 in between the 2 RCF's in cardioid mode even though they are different manufacturer subs, will that work thanks
Hey, Jose. Short answer - yes, it will work, but it's not optimal. The phase response of a KW181 and a 8004 are similar, but stay about 60-70° apart from each other throughout their operating range. I'd give it a shot and test to see how much rejection in the rear of the array you get.
Congratulations for your expertise, could you make a similar video regarding the tops? When the room is narrow and deep what configuration sounds best? For example, a room 10 meters wide 20 meters deep, console in the middle of the narrow part, pa on either side of the dj, would you choose dual mono or stereo? Already at 3 meters from the dj, the angle of emission of the 2 pa crosses. Wouldn't it be better to put the 2 pa stacked vertically? I use a column system that has 120 degrees of dispersion. I keep it to the right of the dj pointed slightly toward the opposite side at the back of the room to avoid the wall at the back being perpendicular.
If a single main is adequately able to cover the entire audience and it's not weird from a sight line or stage relationship, then I'll roll with that. If I need more SPL, then I'll roll with a LR setup and have overlap.
Most manufacturers out there make great stuff. It's more a matter of budget, rigging capabilities, power requirements, the rest of the product line etc.
I mix in a church, with JBL gear with left and right flown boxes and left and right subs tucked under the stage (behind a screen so I never even saw them might even be toed out). Rectangular shoe-box space seating about 500. Ceiling too low to fly the subs anyway. Overall the sound is pretty nice if you stay in one spot. However, as soon as you walk a step to left or right from FOH (which is dead center) you get these big fluctuations, valleys and peaks. Are these likely to come from the subs? And futhermore... I think we send stereo through the subs. It that right? Or should it be one mono signal going to both subs?
I'd still keep a LR feed to the subs to help with some of the power alleys and valleys. But yes, once you move laterally in the room you're moving through each of the alleys and valleys from having two low frequencies highly displacement from one another, not to mention the room modes. Both of those factors together create the variations in low end you're experiencing.
When I'm not on live audio gigs I master records out of this studio, so that's what all the sound damping is for. It also helps my mic sound nice and tight ; )
If you have Mapp XT or any other program like this, place two subs l/r and adjust the distance between them. You'll start to see the affects of comb filtering. That being said, from what ive seen on Mapp XT is that after about 9ft you start to lose that nice orb shape.
@@ZeeykRS It ultimately depends on what frequency you're looking at. Like I mentioned in my other comment reply, it's up to a 2/3 wavelength max offset before you start to see cancellation and get power alleys and valleys. A 31Hz wave is 36.45ft long vs a 100Hz wave is 11.3ft long. Each of those having different wavelengths will give you very different power valley/alley patterns over the same offset distance.
I am thoroughly enjoying your videos Michael thank you. Just referencing your video at about 12:40, I wanted to clarify are you saying 2 subwoofers not enough for any cardioid setups (including a 2 element centre cluster?) I am very keen to try a cardioid setup with 2 x HK L3 1500a subs out in front of the stage.
Thanks a ton, Peter. Thanks for clarifying, I was unclear. What I meant to say is that if you're forced to do a left/right setup (split up two subs) then you won't be able to do a cardioid pattern. The advantage of using a subwoofer that has a cardioid pattern natively, like the QSC KS212 that I mentioned, is that it already has a cardioid pattern, so you can split up subs if you're forced to and still get the cardioid benefits.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Wow thanks for the detailed and fast reply! This is great and completely clears up that grey area for me. Not too many descriptions refer to the similarities of using natively cardioid sources in a similar layout to omni so it is interesting to hear about both approaches. If I may, I was wondering about a centre placed cardioid gradient setup and if it will lose efficacy in front of my typical mobile stage setup? I understand the reflective properties of a stage vertical skirt negates the cardioid pattern: do you think the same problem will happen when the stage top (the horizontal 'floor') is only raised high enough to be level with the sub enclosure top? Despite there not being a hard vertical front immediately behind the enclosures, there certainly is just above and behind them. If this is a problem, will moving the subs away reduce this? (Subject to the physical limitations of the performance space of course!) Huge appreciations.
@@thepeteato You're very welcome! A good rule of thumb here is to have your cardioid sub array at least 3ft/1m in front of your stage if possible. You're right that the stage top will have some impact on the pattern, but you will still get rejection in the rear as long as you don't have a hard stage front. I've ran a few shows where I had a center sub setup, no hard stage front, but still had to put my subs right up against the front of it and it still performed great out front, just not quite as much cancellation on stage.
Hi Michael, first let me thank you for all the passion and the hard work you put into your videos! I spend a lot of time watching them these days and learn a lot !! I have a question about my L/R sub setup. I work in a small venue (500 audience) equipped with 2 subs (flown) each side of the stage in the same cluster as mains + I have one sub on the ground still on each side placed vertically at about the same position. I wonder about the routing of the stereo mix. Do you think it's better to feed left subs with Left source of the master and Right subs with right or is it a better choice to send a summation of L+R to both sides in the subs? Thanks in advance for your help
Great question. If your subs are positioned separately and will localize to the "left" and "right" of your audience I would run a stereo matrix to them.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Thanks for the answer. Sorry not sure about the answer...Do you mean by "stereo matrix" send the Left to left subs and Right to rights subs or feed both sides of subs with the L+R. cheers
Great stuff. LR stacked vs. side-by-side: Would it be fair to say that outdoor with no sidewalls is often better suited for side-by-side, and indoor, less? Of course, all venues are different from eachother. Better coverage with spacing can come with a bit more phase-smearing, i.e. Less precise dynamics, so it comes down to program material and the room to dictate what to choose.. Would you agree?
I think the changes in those two scenarios would be negligible. The acoustic centers, at least on a single 18" cabinet, would still be very similar positions. Side by Side would slightly narrow things horizontally, stacking would narrow them vertically.
Michael - Your videos are amazing and so so informative. Out of my DJ Controller (NS6II Numark), I typically go out of my master XLRs to the Subs, and then up to my tops. It sounds like you said we can also do that in reverse. Does it make any difference?
Thank you so much for your kind words! I'm so glad they're helpful. It depends on the speakers that you have. Some subs will take your main input, then apply a high pass filter on the output to your tops, taking care of the crossover between the two. Some speaker's passthrough lines don't have processing on them, but each of your mains and tops have processing. Which speakers are you currently using?
@@vasili55 For your setup I would run your main outputs into your subs, then loop out to your tops. Then choose the "100Hz crossover" on your K12 tops. If you have the K12.2, I'd do the 80Hz crossover.
Brilliant video, I play in a wedding band and it’s just not convenient to have my 2 subs in the centre. Tried it before and it sounds great but people just jump on them and it’s not ideal. If I was to go back to left and right subs what is the best distance in terms of feet to have them apart?. Thanks
Thanks, Jacob! Great question. The best distance in my opinion is to have them aligned vertically with your mains so you're at least eliminating that offset (the mains and subs will function more like a unit). Once you get beyond a half wavelength spacing (if your subs crossover was 100Hz, that'd be 6ft or so), there is not "perfect" distance to help reduce power alleys and valleys.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thanks for this. In regards to the left and right sub placement say for example if you had them 12ft-15ft apart would a boost in eq help? Say around the 63hz range to help combat this alley situation? Also, would turning up the subs help? Again, I suppose this is the same as turning up eq.
@@JacoBrownolymetal666 An EQ boost would turn up that frequency range everywhere, but would do nothing to help combat the inconsistencies due to comb filtering. Turning up the subs would not help that either.
My new gig is where it’s either my Yamaha 2 DXS15XLF subs or the bands two QSC 18 in subs. The subs are always on each side of the stage because aesthetics are more important that optimal audio. One time I went into ease focus and I modeled a room with the Yamaha subs. It showed that if I put a delay on one side I got a full coverage of low end. I personally own four dual 15 inch subwoofers. In the past I’ve used two dual driver subwoofers on each side stacked, and then spaced out single driver subs across the front. I was unable to do any kind of measuring with it, but with having single driver subs spaced across the front I had the best low-frequency coverage ever. It would be cool if you did a video about the two different ways. A pair of two drive subwoofers on each side of the stage with single driver subs space across the front, abs also using delay on a side to compare what the difference is.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio So this past month I did a show in a 55,000 sq ft room in Nashville. The stage is 63ft wide. No choice on that gig. I had to space the subs out. I had low frequency coverage throughout the room, except for the dance floor (esthetics). The room I was referring to where EASE Focus told me to delay a sub was a room where I think I entered a 30ft wide stage (I could be wrong on that number). As for the stages where I spaced the single driver subs between a pair of dual driver subs on each side of the stage, that was street dances where the band was on a flat bed semi trailer. Those stages are pretty typical in ND and MN, when I lived there.
One room we play is long and I stack my JBL SRX818SP(both forward) with a JBL SRX835P on top and JBL SRX835P on a tripod. It sounds great. I'm around 8' from the back and side walls with the stack(2 subs forward/top forward). Another room we just played was a nightmare. No stage so I L/R subs with LR SRX835P on top of poles on each sub(I used my short sub poles, it puts the horns just above heads, hind sight I should have used my longer sub poles). Both subs had at least 8 or more feet from rear wall, but the side of the subs were around 4' from the walls. Just way too much bass as the guitarist was stage left, Yet in another room we do this but the Stage left Sub is against the wall or 4-6" from the side and he doesn't get the bass on him(but I also use a longer pole and the SRX835P top is higher up(not sure if the distance of these tops off the subs helps decouple more? Nonetheless, the sound is usually best when I stack my subs on one side or both on the ground side-by-side center and strapped together. L/R subs give me the worst outcome with weird reflections/refractions. I'm sure Room EQing could help. I ended up moving High Pass on the kick drum and bass guitar channel. Now that I'm thinking of it, I should leave those alone and try over all mix EQing Mains/subs and cut the lows there or roll the knobs back a few db on the Sub boxes. Never enough time to do the set up and sound check. I only have time to step out front for our first song as I'm the bassist and singer in the band too. It would be nice to afford and sound engineer for our shows!!! lol This is us.... If you use headphones... We sound better than most. I hope lol In this video the subs are stacked stage right 8' from back and 8' from side and you can see the room is long on that side and then the other top Stage left shoots slightly angled inwards as the bar is only 10'. Copper ceiling, yet this Room we have been told we sound the best. I noticed that our voices and instruments are nicely separated and very intelligible. In other venues the lows are more washed and less tight. What can I pay attention to for tighter lows with less wash in the other rooms? th-cam.com/video/OCbnzcydaRc/w-d-xo.html
OMG.... I've been doing sound for 40 years... I just watched your MUDDY video. Although I have our male vocals High Pass rolled around 150-175 (3 males) and 125-150hz for our female. We use no Back Line Bass cabinets or Guitar Cabinets, But I never thought on the tight stage setups the cabinet proximity to the microphones Stage L/R. I feel like slapping myself right now lol Something I need to watch for. Grateful for your videos!!!
Sounds great, man! When working in rooms that have a longer/washier reverb time the tendency is to mix louder to try and "overcome" the lack of intelligibility. Be aware of that urge and still keep your mix at a comfortable level. Like you mentioned earlier, using a low shelf on the entire rig to fine tune the response will go a long way as well. It's a bummer that most performance venues don't have great acoustics, but it's something we've got to deal with!
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Thank you for your kind response :) I'll be 60 this year and my goal is to have my own live music venue with proper treatment and COVERAGE over Volume. Speakers around the room at specific points and time alignment. :) I live in St Augustine FL and there isn't a venue properly set up. I'm sure, Universe Willing, I will have "THE VENUE" lol Thank you once again for your content.
I feel like I've been asking a lot of questions lately and I don't want to abuse the privilege, so I'll keep this short. :-) I'd like to add a sub to a small PA (two powered 2-way 12" cabs on poles) and I'm considering either a single 18", or two 12". The efficiencies, max SPL, and frequency responses are within "tolerance" but beyond that, I'm at a bit of a loss. Any guidance would be most appreciated. Thank you, as always!
No abuse at all : ) I like the way 18" subs sound overall when compared to 12" subs. A bigger driver means higher SPL handling at lower frequencies. They just sound "deeper" to me and can typically go lower in frequency. As long as you're not trying to go crazy high in level, just one 18" sub should be plenty. There is a point to be made for symmetry, though. Many gigs you're not able to have a center sub setup, so you would have to put your single sub off to one side of the other of the stage, creating an imbalance. Having two subs would create symmetry (but you would also have power alleys and valleys since they're spaced apart). I'm willing to be you could get more total SPL out of putting two 12" subs right next to each other than one 18", but I don't think you'd be able to go as low in frequency. A single 18" will be big. Two 12"s will be smaller cabinets, but twice the volume. Might be easier to stack on the pack, though? Those are the things I think about!
@@MichaelCurtisAudioWe wen't half-way. We got a deal on a single used 15" powered sub and gigged with it for the first time last weekend. Ran it in the center, per your guidance, and the system sounded excellent! We even had time to do some testing with/without, and experiment with different placements. Surprise surprise, the center placement sounded best. So... yeah! Thanks again for your time and guidance.
@@smashogre4766 So glad to hear that, man! Way to test it out for yourself and not just take my word for it. Glad y'all are getting great results, happy to help.
Awesome channel! I plan to try cardioid for the first time this weekend with two KS118s centered. I’m favoring side by side in front of my booth covered with a cloth but I’ll probably try stacked turned sideways as well so it won’t be so tall. I’m also considering under my booth. As I’ll be right behind them, shouldn’t I be in the sweet spot for less bass?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio I'm SO excited to try this, as cardioid was one of the reasons to make it a pair of KS118s. I do love avoiding stands with split subs, but it's not as impactful or as consistent as a center sub. I'm planning to put the K10.2s on stands with an uplit totem in front of each to help with the look. Is there any energy loss when running in cardioid or is it all there, just re-directed?
This is an older video but hopefully someone sees my question. Would the cardioid setup be usable with two dual subwoofer boxes setup in a left/right configuration? My thinking; flip the lead wires to one driver inside the enclosures on either side.
Great question! There are some sub cabinets set up this way, but the internal driver displacement and porting is the secret sauce that makes a cardioid pattern work. If you did as you suggested and reversed the connections on one of your drivers in a typical dual 18" cabinet then you would just create complete cancellation at every frequency. The drivers would be "fighting themselves".
@@MichaelCurtisAudio ah okay. That makes sense since they usually share the same ports/face the same direction and are in line with each other. Thank you for the clarification. I will not blow up my drivers just yet then. Lol
@@MichaelCurtisAudio one more question. If placing these same dual cabinets both in the center were possible, would the horizontal cardioid setup work?
@@josechicas93 If you have the stage height I would do an inverted gradient stack. One cabinet in the center on bottom facing forward, the other on top of it facing backward. That gives you the driver displacement. Then place a mic behind the array (on stage) then delay the rear sub to match the front facing sub, then polarity invert the rear sub to get cancellation in the rear.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio we do not have the height to do so, so then I return to your recommendation in the video of comparing the trade offs. Our stage is fairly wide, with the subs underneath/inside the wooden framing at about 30-40ft apart. It sounds great on the sides but lacks punch and clarity towards the middle. Maybe if we were to just pair them both in the middle it would help. Or 3rd cabinet in center?
Question… with the left and right sub setup. What if you lower the volume of one sub let’s say half the volume of the other; would that reduce the comb filtering?
Also what are your thoughts on putting the pair of subs on one side of the stage instead of the center? Cause at some church they don’t like the look of the subs in the center.
Hey, Nario! Great question. Yes, you could turn one sub down, but you're trading one problem for another. You'd have less comb filtering, but now one half of your audience has 6dB less low end than the other half. So, it's just a different type of tonal imbalance issue you've created.
As long as your stage is too crazy wide when compared to the rest of the room I think that's a viable option! The best way to know is to try it out on a Sunday and walk the room and listen to see if one side of your audience feels "too" lopsided.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio I will try it out this Sunday to have a listen. Don’t know if it matters but the dimensions of my church is 12ft high 34ft wide and 57ft long concrete structure…
Fantastic video! Been trying to learn more in depth about this placement style for some time. Question though! Is there a way to calculate the distance from the left and right sub to minimize the power alleys/power valleys for a specific frequency or octave?
Thank you so much! Yes there is. You want to stay within 2/3 wavelength of the frequency in question. That's the maximum amount of offset (+-120°) you can get before you start to see cancellation. For example, a 100Hz wave (the very top of most sub ranges) is 11.3ft. 11.3ft x 2/3 = 7.45ft That would make the sub coverage much narrower (suited for a long, narrow room/audience) with no power alleys or valleys. It is better to have overlap and power alleys/valleys, but cover your whole audience than have a sub array that's to narrow, but no power alleys and valleys.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thanks for this great video Michael! I play in a wedding band with R and L set up and during sound check I walk out with my wireless and also feel a lack of bass in the middle. Normally they are 15-20ft apart. Would you say the most I could have them apart would around 12ft? Thanks
@@JacoBrownolymetal666 I'd say best case scenario is placing your Mains speakers L and R for the best high frequency coverage, then if you're able to move your subs to the center, have them right next to each other in the center for even low end throughout. If you can't put your subs in the center, I'd just stick with having them paired with your mains speakers so those are coupled together.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio hi, thanks for this. If placing them in the centre is not an option and I have to go with R and L how far apart/how close would you say that both sides need to be to make it work best ? 12ft?
@@JacoBrownolymetal666 Best case scenario if you're spacing them is to have them 5.5ft apart of less so you don't get any side lobes, but most stages are wider than that. Just get them as close as you can given the stage width you have.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Just discovered your channel a week ago, still asn't got the time to watch all your videos as work is coming back after covid here.. Always interesting to observe other's workflow and point of view, espacially when they're overseas. You got me into buying Bob Mc carthy's book for sure! For the next one ...maybe measuring mic placement, still hearing a lot of myth about it, should be great ! I know Nathan Lively from sound design live channel did a lot about this topic but the more content we got the better it is!
@@ARCangeization Great info! Yes, I've got some videos in the pipeline on mic placement. And you're asking for measurement mic placement specifically for subs or for the whole rig in the tuning workflow in general?
with every video I watch I realize how little I actually know and how much enjoyment there is in learning new things! thanks Michael for all the effort and hard work you put into teaching or debating everything, cheers mate!
That's very kind of you! Keep learning.
I appreciate you speaking as an audio engineer with a room that is TREATED!
In a small club environment with only two subs (low stage so impractical to make a center cardioid array) would you bite the bullet and roll with the L/R spaced pair, or would you prefer, assuming it could be done without ruining the aesthetic or compromising stage space, to stack both (either in a cardioid array or in a simple omni stack) on one side of the stage?
I'm a DJ and I often have to do big school Grads with 1500 plus guests. Schools don't have huge budgets, so I can't charge them enough to allow me to rent extra gear and have to make the best of what I have. I can cover the mid/highs no problem but of course kids that age want lots of hip hop and lots of low end. I have 2 older QSC hpr181i subs that I usually put together side by side in front of center stage with the mid/high's at the left and right. It sounds OK (even though I have to spend all night removing peoples drinks from the subs). I also have 2 older Mackie SWA1501's. Is there any way I could incorporate those into the setup for a little more bass coverage or would that cause problems? Any feedback would be appreciated!
I’m a Dj and I find this so intriguing. Great information, thank you 🙏🏼 🔊🔊🪩
You're very welcome!
Is there any downside if I’m using 2 pairs of different size subs? Like 2-18” and 2-15” subs on a left/right configuration..
Hi, fantastic videos! With a traditional either side of stage LR 2sub 2 top config I normally just run a single L output to the `L sub and single high pass to my L top and vice versa for the R. However I recently started experimenting with cluster my 2 subs, with some cautious success; and now have bought a 3rd sub which I hope to try this weekend as a small outdoor festival. My question is how best to connect the subs from the desk when clustered. Is a L sub L top / then a R sub R top still best (with a full range pass through from one sub to the extra 3rd sub) or is it best to run dual L&R signals from the desk into one sub, high pass L & R to the tops but then pass through both L&R to the additional subs? I generally run mono mixes for the bands but if a stereo source (DJ) I guess the single to each subs could be different if only running a `L or R from the desk. I’m looking to get the subs to work in harmony together, take full advance of the clustering benefits which I guess is only really achieved if all subs are getting exactly the same signal? And that would mean both L&R in and more cables! Thanks in advance
Awesome video, I have
2 qsc la108 per side and one qsc ks118 preside, if I add another ks118 per side cardioid will that help me have more directional or separating them 5ft apart like you said, LR scenario
Left and right subs but feeding a mono is the dumbest thing you do.
Hi Michael, I would be curious to know your opinion about "Dave Rat's technique" for LR subs, which consists of sending different signals to both sides (for instance kick in + bass DI to sub Left and kick out + bass cabinet to sub Right) to minimize the interactions between both stacks and so minimize power alleys and valleys. I personally use that when I have to go subs LR, and find it quite efficient concerning wide tonal inconsistencies, but I'd like your input about that.
Thanks
Louis
Hey, Louis. Great question. Yes I'm familiar with Dave's technique and I think there's some merit to it, but I usually don't have the luxury of being able to double mic or take two sources from everything. I also don't think the amount of de-correlation that happens is all that much, but i've never measured it so I could be wrong here : )
It also makes it tough to mix a program/record feed since your board mix has everything panned out to make the PA sound better, but will have to think and mix differently for every other destination. Just my two cents!
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Hi, thank you for your answer
Have a nice day !
Yeah, I was going to bring that one up too! If you're sending subs via a matrix, you can do a L/R split as per Louis's post. You'd only need to set this up once on your console and could recall it every time. Just found your channel Michael. Great content!!
How do I deal with church pews 3 ft high.
Like a comment in here already, I'm also a DJ. I have 4 18's 4 b52's. The subs are 2 each side stacked, along with the b52s, same stacking. They're right next to each other LR of me. I'd say they are 60 feet apart from each other. I've tinkered a lot with sound lately, and have them sounding pretty decent as far as coverage goes.
What I'm not understanding is how I can create more bump towards the dance floor. I don't care about the sound hitting me on stage because I got mic adjustment down without any chance of feedback. Hours spent researching that and talking to people with 20+ yrs exp.
IF you could relay any options please lmk. I've watched your videos on aux vs non-aux. I'm currently using aux. The settings on back of subs have 2 knobs for boosting 40-70hz i belive and 50-120? also there is a phase reverese and normal along with boost. THey are powered on their own, and I'm running aux into one of the subs left side, thru to top in, from there, thru to the other subs in, and thru from the sub with th at connection. In x-air there is a setting to enable "LR" .. and I notice a considerable jump in high end when I enable this. I"m assuming its pulling more sound that way, not sure. Any advice would help, if you need more info, just lmk. If you can't answer due to contract or obligations for money, I understand completely, but it doesn't hurt to ask.
THanks man! Keep it going! Maybe I'll discover or understand what I'm looking for when I'm scouring through the MANY tutorials here
I'm considering adding an aux fed, 18" Mackie sub to a spaced pair of QSC K112's. Any thoughts?
Hey. I was wondering... what manufacturer do you prefer if you have a choice to pick one to work with their sound system. I personally am fan of L'acoustics but never had a chance to actually find out which one is the better overral product... So top tear brand if you have a choice what ever you can choose...
p.s.
I do realise that top tear brands have fine margins against each other and picking one doesn't mean other brands are no good... just out of curiosity I want to hear opinion of an unbiast professional :)
Cheers :)
(sry for eventual typos, if you speak croatian it would be much easyer for me haha )
Do you have any info on distance from the back wall in L / R setups or in rooms without a flat back wall? I'm a mobile DJ with 2 KW181s and struggle with how far away from the wall to place them based on the room. It's almost always closer and often in a corner or non-flat wall.
I have watched few of your videos and you are only talking about how to boost subs but what about mids and highs ? How can I boost those frequencies?
what software are you using to visualize the pattern? good video by the way!!
If I'm playing an outdoor gig, or there's a stage that I can put the subs together in front of it, that's my favorite choice, small clubs where we're on the floor or real close to it, subs on the sides are just really convenient
Yes, convenience and aesthetic definitely play into sound system design choices, for sure. That's why it's so important to have several known setups in your arsenal so you can adapt to any show or venue.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio seeing the graphics really helps to illustrate what I've been told about sub placement for the years, appreciate your time putting this together
@@mojoemurphy You're very welcome!
Hey Micheal, I wanted to ask If there's anything I can reach out to you wanted to get some assistance re setting up a layout for my church.
What setup do you suggest for 2 speakers and 1 sub or 2 subs when there is no stage but a dj booth facing the crowd and at the same dancefloor level, as you said people sometimes talks about what they see instead of what they hear, is it ok to setup 1 sub behind the dj booth or will it be messing the audio quality considering that the dj booth is a led display and putting a sub in front of it may not be a great idea for a visual quality-aestethic feel
Im very new to this but i have question. When you loop from the mid speakers to the sub, will you be able to dedicate lets say, sounds that you want to be heard from the subs exclusively like the kickdrum to the subs only? I was under the impression that you only loop same type/ use speakers eg Monitors,mids, subs..but not accross each other.
What about L and R subs plus center qsc cardiroid sub..?.
I love your explainations. What do You trink about 2Xmaui44g2 stéréo distance ?
You're welcome! Can you ask that a different way?
Would it be helpful, if we space the LR sub around 30 feet and change the croasover setting. L sub from 30hz to 50hz. R sub from 50hz to 80hz. Please enlighten, thanks
I've seen this done in a flown sub vs ground stacked situation, where the floor subs are "infra" subs (covering the very low frequencies), but not in a horizontal setting. Could be interesting, but the imagining of the low end would feel pretty weird. And those on the far left and right of your audience would feel a "hole" in the low end since they're far from the other sub dishing out that part of the spectrum.
Am wondering if using 2 Yamaha DXR 15's are better for outdoor gig rather than 2 QSC 12.2's since there may be better bass with larger speakers? Plan to use 2 QSC 118s center stage. Thanks!
Sorry, NOT 118's, 112's!
Great tutorial Micheal, Thanks!!! I would like to know what is the best set up with 2 cardioids k212c mount with top on it. Is left right makes gaps also when it's cardioid? Also, I've heard you about phasing top with the sub. What should I look about to make sure my set up is phased? I have as top RCF art 932.
The best way would be to measure your setup and compare the phase traces of your mains and subs throughout their crossover region. And to your first point, yes you will still have power alleys an valleys with a left/right cardioid setup since they're still physically displaced.
I have 3 QSC KS 118's can you recommend the best setup for 3? I was just going to center them touching
For most gigs I'd say that's a great place to start.
Whats the software you use for drawing the pink boxes on top of your presentation.
Love your content btw! Amazing content.
Thank you so much! It's called ScreenBrush.
I have a question about delay on a pair of QSC KS118 deployed in cardioid. Should I still be able to use the built in delays?
I think it ends up disabling the delay function? It will say "LOCKED"? I need to double check the manual.
Experiment with a stereo sub array. Insert 32 band graphic on each array and cut every other frequency on one graphic. On the other skip the cut frequencies and drop those. I believe this was known as Aardvarking back in the day.
I've heard of this technique, but have never tried it. From a "theoretical" standpoint I'm skeptical, but it may totally work!
There's a research team (at some university I can't remember the name of) currently working on a proprietary decorrelation algorithm that can be undetectable on headphones and be applied to stereo sub setups. Last I heard they were close to having it done, but just had to get the latency down.
what would be more critical or what you should focus on the most. time alight or frequency cancelation.
Those two concepts both relate to and affect each other, so I would say both : ).
Lovely demonstration. What is your experience with putting your sub(s) in the middle of the stage on the ground with 2 tops on the LR?
I've run that setup all the time and really like it! Even better if you can sneak a small front fill on top of the two center subs so you can get some HF localization there.
Love your channel very informative 👍. Let's us put this scenario together. Without the lighting company in the back and the stacked subs are in cardioid mode would that allow for less power alleys at 100hz and also less bass in the rear of the stage. At just looking at the image at 19:18 (I think that is the time reference) you have a power alley cardioid-ish shape turned sideways. So I am guessing if we where to cardioid the left and right subs would we get more low end frequency moving forward.
Thank you for your time
RobertJean-Louis aka Lordblanca
I'm not sure I 100% understand your question, but let me give it a shot!
I think what you're referring to is me placing each of the subs in the L/R sub arrays 5ft apart from each other, which will narrow the pattern it creates, therefore making less overlap and interference between the two sub arrays. You could also do this with natively cardioid subs, or use four subs in stacked configuration to get both the cancellation in the rear AND the narrowing of the coverage pattern.
Does the inline gradient work for tapped horn/scoop subwoofers?
Sure does!
For smaller setups, if you can't put the subs in the middle, would it be preferable to put them both on one side instead of left and right?
If the stage is narrow (12ft or less) I think that's a good idea. Any wider than that than the low end image starts to feel lop-sided. It also depends on your audience size. Best thing to do is to test on-site and so which set of tradeoffs you'd rather have.
What do you think of the approach of placing all subs on either the left or right side when placing them in the center is not an option as explained on the alpha sound TH-cam channel?
I'd definitely want to A/B it in that specific room if I went with that approach, but it's a valid one as long as the stage isn't super crazy wide. It's also helpful if the audience isn't super close to the stage, so the range range ratio isn't as bad.
Hello. I have an installation consisting of 2 dynacord fx20 horn loaded basses and 2 fx12 horn tops. in my installation they go L-R bass-top, bass-top. I mention that I don't have a suspension scaffold for tops and I use a spacer from the subwoofer to suspend the top. please help me with a layout of the speakers to avoid bass cancellations. at what distance is it best to put the collars between them to avoid frequency cancellations. thanks
th-cam.com/video/gxSMoIBYEks/w-d-xo.html this is the instalation
Keep the bass cabs together and you will avoid comb filtering. Then place the upper range horns where they cover the audience best.
Hi Mike, I have 4 Ekx 18sp, 2 Ekx 15p and 2 Etx 12p for 350 to max 500 people. What’s the best set up for these speakers i have…?
2 Ekx 18sp stack on top of each other with Ekx 15p on top on both sides, crossover to each other or
2 Ekx 18sp stack on top of each other with Etx 12p on top on both sides, crossover to 100hz
It depends on your audience shape and if you're able to place your subs in the center, but if you're covering a normal square dance floor I'd run your subs in the center. Do two of them right next to each other with the other two stacked on top. Very similar to this setup - th-cam.com/video/Q4ny703u-ks/w-d-xo.html
Then have your EKX 15P speaker as your mains covering their half of the dance floor. Then use the ETX 12P's as front fills or outfills. Reference this video - th-cam.com/video/OeaMtRvIysM/w-d-xo.html
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thank you very much for your answer, I got the same answer too but your explanation is just better and i am definitely greatly for your time and idea.
Love your channel! Thank you for putting out all this info. I just purchased a budget mini line array system. It has two stacks of four top arrays with a 12” sub. The problem is that there is no crossover so all elements will be full range… is there a way to crossover with adding an external amp or another sub? Or anything else I can get? Or is there not something to even worry about? This will be mostly for dance music events less than 200 ppl. The RMS is supposably 1000 watts. The unit is called the Proreck AEF club system. Any info or advice is hugely appreciated.
Just from taking a quick look at it it seems that the internal processing takes care of the crossover for you, so you don't have to do anything extra.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio awesome thank you! Loving all the content.
I would like to know about those sound panels in the background of your video.
Almost all of them are the GIK Acoustics Monster Bass Traps. - www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-monster-bass-trap-flexrange-technology/
I also have three of the freestanding versions that go in front of my closet doors and entrance door. In the front of the room I also have some soffit bass traps that line the floor and vertically stacked in the corners.
thanks for all your good teachings, keep up the good work, hopefully you can answer my question I have 2 RCF 8004 subs which I use mostly left right in line with my HDL 10A tops and when I walk the audience I can tell where the alleys and valleys are, my question is can I move them to the center and add a KW181 in between the 2 RCF's in cardioid mode even though they are different manufacturer subs, will that work thanks
Hey, Jose. Short answer - yes, it will work, but it's not optimal. The phase response of a KW181 and a 8004 are similar, but stay about 60-70° apart from each other throughout their operating range. I'd give it a shot and test to see how much rejection in the rear of the array you get.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thanks, you're the best I'll give it a shot
Congratulations for your expertise, could you make a similar video regarding the tops? When the room is narrow and deep what configuration sounds best? For example, a room 10 meters wide 20 meters deep, console in the middle of the narrow part, pa on either side of the dj, would you choose dual mono or stereo? Already at 3 meters from the dj, the angle of emission of the 2 pa crosses. Wouldn't it be better to put the 2 pa stacked vertically? I use a column system that has 120 degrees of dispersion. I keep it to the right of the dj pointed slightly toward the opposite side at the back of the room to avoid the wall at the back being perpendicular.
If a single main is adequately able to cover the entire audience and it's not weird from a sight line or stage relationship, then I'll roll with that. If I need more SPL, then I'll roll with a LR setup and have overlap.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio and what happened if you place 2 classic pa one on the top of the other?
Happy new year, can you make a video about good pa speakers.
Most manufacturers out there make great stuff. It's more a matter of budget, rigging capabilities, power requirements, the rest of the product line etc.
I mix in a church, with JBL gear with left and right flown boxes and left and right subs tucked under the stage (behind a screen so I never even saw them might even be toed out). Rectangular shoe-box space seating about 500. Ceiling too low to fly the subs anyway. Overall the sound is pretty nice if you stay in one spot. However, as soon as you walk a step to left or right from FOH (which is dead center) you get these big fluctuations, valleys and peaks. Are these likely to come from the subs?
And futhermore... I think we send stereo through the subs. It that right? Or should it be one mono signal going to both subs?
By the way, is that all excessive sound proofing behind you? ;) Works great!
I'd still keep a LR feed to the subs to help with some of the power alleys and valleys. But yes, once you move laterally in the room you're moving through each of the alleys and valleys from having two low frequencies highly displacement from one another, not to mention the room modes. Both of those factors together create the variations in low end you're experiencing.
When I'm not on live audio gigs I master records out of this studio, so that's what all the sound damping is for. It also helps my mic sound nice and tight ; )
50 feet is quite wide apart for most semi professional users. what about 16-20 feet apart?
You'll still get comb filtering (power alleys and valleys) throughout your audience, it'll just be a little different shape than what you see here.
If you have Mapp XT or any other program like this, place two subs l/r and adjust the distance between them. You'll start to see the affects of comb filtering.
That being said, from what ive seen on Mapp XT is that after about 9ft you start to lose that nice orb shape.
@@ZeeykRS It ultimately depends on what frequency you're looking at. Like I mentioned in my other comment reply, it's up to a 2/3 wavelength max offset before you start to see cancellation and get power alleys and valleys. A 31Hz wave is 36.45ft long vs a 100Hz wave is 11.3ft long. Each of those having different wavelengths will give you very different power valley/alley patterns over the same offset distance.
I am thoroughly enjoying your videos Michael thank you. Just referencing your video at about 12:40, I wanted to clarify are you saying 2 subwoofers not enough for any cardioid setups (including a 2 element centre cluster?) I am very keen to try a cardioid setup with 2 x HK L3 1500a subs out in front of the stage.
Thanks a ton, Peter. Thanks for clarifying, I was unclear. What I meant to say is that if you're forced to do a left/right setup (split up two subs) then you won't be able to do a cardioid pattern. The advantage of using a subwoofer that has a cardioid pattern natively, like the QSC KS212 that I mentioned, is that it already has a cardioid pattern, so you can split up subs if you're forced to and still get the cardioid benefits.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Wow thanks for the detailed and fast reply! This is great and completely clears up that grey area for me. Not too many descriptions refer to the similarities of using natively cardioid sources in a similar layout to omni so it is interesting to hear about both approaches. If I may, I was wondering about a centre placed cardioid gradient setup and if it will lose efficacy in front of my typical mobile stage setup? I understand the reflective properties of a stage vertical skirt negates the cardioid pattern: do you think the same problem will happen when the stage top (the horizontal 'floor') is only raised high enough to be level with the sub enclosure top? Despite there not being a hard vertical front immediately behind the enclosures, there certainly is just above and behind them. If this is a problem, will moving the subs away reduce this? (Subject to the physical limitations of the performance space of course!) Huge appreciations.
@@thepeteato You're very welcome! A good rule of thumb here is to have your cardioid sub array at least 3ft/1m in front of your stage if possible. You're right that the stage top will have some impact on the pattern, but you will still get rejection in the rear as long as you don't have a hard stage front.
I've ran a few shows where I had a center sub setup, no hard stage front, but still had to put my subs right up against the front of it and it still performed great out front, just not quite as much cancellation on stage.
Hi Michael, first let me thank you for all the passion and the hard work you put into your videos! I spend a lot of time watching them these days and learn a lot !!
I have a question about my L/R sub setup. I work in a small venue (500 audience) equipped with 2 subs (flown) each side of the stage in the same cluster as mains + I have one sub on the ground still on each side placed vertically at about the same position.
I wonder about the routing of the stereo mix. Do you think it's better to feed left subs with Left source of the master and Right subs with right or is it a better choice to send a summation of L+R to both sides in the subs?
Thanks in advance for your help
Great question. If your subs are positioned separately and will localize to the "left" and "right" of your audience I would run a stereo matrix to them.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Thanks for the answer. Sorry not sure about the answer...Do you mean by "stereo matrix" send the Left to left subs and Right to rights subs or feed both sides of subs with the L+R. cheers
Great stuff.
LR stacked vs. side-by-side: Would it be fair to say that outdoor with no sidewalls is often better suited for side-by-side, and indoor, less? Of course, all venues are different from eachother.
Better coverage with spacing can come with a bit more phase-smearing, i.e. Less precise dynamics, so it comes down to program material and the room to dictate what to choose.. Would you agree?
I'm not quite sure what you mean by side-by-side? Does that mean two subs together in the center?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio two per side, next to eachother instead if on top of eachother.
I think the changes in those two scenarios would be negligible. The acoustic centers, at least on a single 18" cabinet, would still be very similar positions. Side by Side would slightly narrow things horizontally, stacking would narrow them vertically.
Michael - Your videos are amazing and so so informative. Out of my DJ Controller (NS6II Numark), I typically go out of my master XLRs to the Subs, and then up to my tops. It sounds like you said we can also do that in reverse. Does it make any difference?
Thank you so much for your kind words! I'm so glad they're helpful.
It depends on the speakers that you have. Some subs will take your main input, then apply a high pass filter on the output to your tops, taking care of the crossover between the two. Some speaker's passthrough lines don't have processing on them, but each of your mains and tops have processing.
Which speakers are you currently using?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio QSC K12 tops and with the KS112 sub woofers.
@@vasili55 For your setup I would run your main outputs into your subs, then loop out to your tops. Then choose the "100Hz crossover" on your K12 tops. If you have the K12.2, I'd do the 80Hz crossover.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Appreciate it. Would you lay the subs flat next to eachother, or stand them up regularly?
@@vasili55 If they're right next to each other, either should work great. If I had to pick one, I would stand them up next to each other.
Brilliant video, I play in a wedding band and it’s just not convenient to have my 2 subs in the centre. Tried it before and it sounds great but people just jump on them and it’s not ideal. If I was to go back to left and right subs what is the best distance in terms of feet to have them apart?. Thanks
Thanks, Jacob! Great question. The best distance in my opinion is to have them aligned vertically with your mains so you're at least eliminating that offset (the mains and subs will function more like a unit). Once you get beyond a half wavelength spacing (if your subs crossover was 100Hz, that'd be 6ft or so), there is not "perfect" distance to help reduce power alleys and valleys.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thanks for this. In regards to the left and right sub placement say for example if you had them 12ft-15ft apart would a boost in eq help? Say around the 63hz range to help combat this alley situation? Also, would turning up the subs help? Again, I suppose this is the same as turning up eq.
@@JacoBrownolymetal666 An EQ boost would turn up that frequency range everywhere, but would do nothing to help combat the inconsistencies due to comb filtering. Turning up the subs would not help that either.
My new gig is where it’s either my Yamaha 2 DXS15XLF subs or the bands two QSC 18 in subs.
The subs are always on each side of the stage because aesthetics are more important that optimal audio.
One time I went into ease focus and I modeled a room with the Yamaha subs.
It showed that if I put a delay on one side I got a full coverage of low end.
I personally own four dual 15 inch subwoofers.
In the past I’ve used two dual driver subwoofers on each side stacked, and then spaced out single driver subs across the front.
I was unable to do any kind of measuring with it, but with having single driver subs spaced across the front I had the best low-frequency coverage ever.
It would be cool if you did a video about the two different ways. A pair of two drive subwoofers on each side of the stage with single driver subs space across the front, abs also using delay on a side to compare what the difference is.
That would be very interesting to look at! Do you have specific dimensions of the room and stage?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio So this past month I did a show in a 55,000 sq ft room in Nashville.
The stage is 63ft wide. No choice on that gig. I had to space the subs out. I had low frequency coverage throughout the room, except for the dance floor (esthetics).
The room I was referring to where EASE Focus told me to delay a sub was a room where I think I entered a 30ft wide stage (I could be wrong on that number).
As for the stages where I spaced the single driver subs between a pair of dual driver subs on each side of the stage, that was street dances where the band was on a flat bed semi trailer. Those stages are pretty typical in ND and MN, when I lived there.
Your a blessing MR Curtis, thanks for ur videos🙏🏽
You're very welcome!
One room we play is long and I stack my JBL SRX818SP(both forward) with a JBL SRX835P on top and JBL SRX835P on a tripod. It sounds great. I'm around 8' from the back and side walls with the stack(2 subs forward/top forward). Another room we just played was a nightmare. No stage so I L/R subs with LR SRX835P on top of poles on each sub(I used my short sub poles, it puts the horns just above heads, hind sight I should have used my longer sub poles). Both subs had at least 8 or more feet from rear wall, but the side of the subs were around 4' from the walls. Just way too much bass as the guitarist was stage left, Yet in another room we do this but the Stage left Sub is against the wall or 4-6" from the side and he doesn't get the bass on him(but I also use a longer pole and the SRX835P top is higher up(not sure if the distance of these tops off the subs helps decouple more? Nonetheless, the sound is usually best when I stack my subs on one side or both on the ground side-by-side center and strapped together. L/R subs give me the worst outcome with weird reflections/refractions. I'm sure Room EQing could help. I ended up moving High Pass on the kick drum and bass guitar channel. Now that I'm thinking of it, I should leave those alone and try over all mix EQing Mains/subs and cut the lows there or roll the knobs back a few db on the Sub boxes. Never enough time to do the set up and sound check. I only have time to step out front for our first song as I'm the bassist and singer in the band too. It would be nice to afford and sound engineer for our shows!!! lol This is us.... If you use headphones... We sound better than most. I hope lol In this video the subs are stacked stage right 8' from back and 8' from side and you can see the room is long on that side and then the other top Stage left shoots slightly angled inwards as the bar is only 10'. Copper ceiling, yet this Room we have been told we sound the best. I noticed that our voices and instruments are nicely separated and very intelligible. In other venues the lows are more washed and less tight. What can I pay attention to for tighter lows with less wash in the other rooms?
th-cam.com/video/OCbnzcydaRc/w-d-xo.html
Also, I appreciate your content .... you are awesome at explaining. I was a math professor and love to teach. You sir do a great job :) Bravo!!!
OMG.... I've been doing sound for 40 years... I just watched your MUDDY video. Although I have our male vocals High Pass rolled around 150-175 (3 males) and 125-150hz for our female. We use no Back Line Bass cabinets or Guitar Cabinets, But I never thought on the tight stage setups the cabinet proximity to the microphones Stage L/R. I feel like slapping myself right now lol Something I need to watch for. Grateful for your videos!!!
Glad that point was helpful for you.
Sounds great, man!
When working in rooms that have a longer/washier reverb time the tendency is to mix louder to try and "overcome" the lack of intelligibility. Be aware of that urge and still keep your mix at a comfortable level. Like you mentioned earlier, using a low shelf on the entire rig to fine tune the response will go a long way as well. It's a bummer that most performance venues don't have great acoustics, but it's something we've got to deal with!
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Thank you for your kind response :) I'll be 60 this year and my goal is to have my own live music venue with proper treatment and COVERAGE over Volume. Speakers around the room at specific points and time alignment. :) I live in St Augustine FL and there isn't a venue properly set up. I'm sure, Universe Willing, I will have "THE VENUE" lol Thank you once again for your content.
I feel like I've been asking a lot of questions lately and I don't want to abuse the privilege, so I'll keep this short. :-) I'd like to add a sub to a small PA (two powered 2-way 12" cabs on poles) and I'm considering either a single 18", or two 12". The efficiencies, max SPL, and frequency responses are within "tolerance" but beyond that, I'm at a bit of a loss. Any guidance would be most appreciated. Thank you, as always!
No abuse at all : )
I like the way 18" subs sound overall when compared to 12" subs. A bigger driver means higher SPL handling at lower frequencies. They just sound "deeper" to me and can typically go lower in frequency. As long as you're not trying to go crazy high in level, just one 18" sub should be plenty.
There is a point to be made for symmetry, though. Many gigs you're not able to have a center sub setup, so you would have to put your single sub off to one side of the other of the stage, creating an imbalance. Having two subs would create symmetry (but you would also have power alleys and valleys since they're spaced apart).
I'm willing to be you could get more total SPL out of putting two 12" subs right next to each other than one 18", but I don't think you'd be able to go as low in frequency.
A single 18" will be big. Two 12"s will be smaller cabinets, but twice the volume. Might be easier to stack on the pack, though?
Those are the things I think about!
@@MichaelCurtisAudioWow, now THAT'S a reply! Thank you for such a considered response. I'll let you know how it goes. Cheers!
@@smashogre4766 You're very welcome! Please do.
@@MichaelCurtisAudioWe wen't half-way. We got a deal on a single used 15" powered sub and gigged with it for the first time last weekend. Ran it in the center, per your guidance, and the system sounded excellent! We even had time to do some testing with/without, and experiment with different placements. Surprise surprise, the center placement sounded best. So... yeah! Thanks again for your time and guidance.
@@smashogre4766 So glad to hear that, man! Way to test it out for yourself and not just take my word for it. Glad y'all are getting great results, happy to help.
Awesome channel! I plan to try cardioid for the first time this weekend with two KS118s centered. I’m favoring side by side in front of my booth covered with a cloth but I’ll probably try stacked turned sideways as well so it won’t be so tall. I’m also considering under my booth. As I’ll be right behind them, shouldn’t I be in the sweet spot for less bass?
Thank you very much. If the subs are right in front of you you are right in saying that you'll be where there's the most amount of rejection!
@@MichaelCurtisAudio I'm SO excited to try this, as cardioid was one of the reasons to make it a pair of KS118s. I do love avoiding stands with split subs, but it's not as impactful or as consistent as a center sub. I'm planning to put the K10.2s on stands with an uplit totem in front of each to help with the look. Is there any energy loss when running in cardioid or is it all there, just re-directed?
This is an older video but hopefully someone sees my question. Would the cardioid setup be usable with two dual subwoofer boxes setup in a left/right configuration? My thinking; flip the lead wires to one driver inside the enclosures on either side.
Great question! There are some sub cabinets set up this way, but the internal driver displacement and porting is the secret sauce that makes a cardioid pattern work. If you did as you suggested and reversed the connections on one of your drivers in a typical dual 18" cabinet then you would just create complete cancellation at every frequency. The drivers would be "fighting themselves".
@@MichaelCurtisAudio ah okay. That makes sense since they usually share the same ports/face the same direction and are in line with each other. Thank you for the clarification. I will not blow up my drivers just yet then. Lol
@@MichaelCurtisAudio one more question. If placing these same dual cabinets both in the center were possible, would the horizontal cardioid setup work?
@@josechicas93 If you have the stage height I would do an inverted gradient stack. One cabinet in the center on bottom facing forward, the other on top of it facing backward. That gives you the driver displacement. Then place a mic behind the array (on stage) then delay the rear sub to match the front facing sub, then polarity invert the rear sub to get cancellation in the rear.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio we do not have the height to do so, so then I return to your recommendation in the video of comparing the trade offs. Our stage is fairly wide, with the subs underneath/inside the wooden framing at about 30-40ft apart. It sounds great on the sides but lacks punch and clarity towards the middle. Maybe if we were to just pair them both in the middle it would help. Or 3rd cabinet in center?
Wow, incredibly informative videos on your channel!
Thank you so much!
Anything specific you'd like to see in the future?
Question… with the left and right sub setup. What if you lower the volume of one sub let’s say half the volume of the other; would that reduce the comb filtering?
Also what are your thoughts on putting the pair of subs on one side of the stage instead of the center? Cause at some church they don’t like the look of the subs in the center.
Hey, Nario! Great question.
Yes, you could turn one sub down, but you're trading one problem for another. You'd have less comb filtering, but now one half of your audience has 6dB less low end than the other half. So, it's just a different type of tonal imbalance issue you've created.
As long as your stage is too crazy wide when compared to the rest of the room I think that's a viable option! The best way to know is to try it out on a Sunday and walk the room and listen to see if one side of your audience feels "too" lopsided.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio I will try it out this Sunday to have a listen. Don’t know if it matters but the dimensions of my church is 12ft high 34ft wide and 57ft long concrete structure…
@@narioesprit4516 I think you can pull it off. Give it a shot this Sunday and report back!
Fantastic video! Been trying to learn more in depth about this placement style for some time.
Question though!
Is there a way to calculate the distance from the left and right sub to minimize the power alleys/power valleys for a specific frequency or octave?
Thank you so much!
Yes there is. You want to stay within 2/3 wavelength of the frequency in question. That's the maximum amount of offset (+-120°) you can get before you start to see cancellation.
For example, a 100Hz wave (the very top of most sub ranges) is 11.3ft.
11.3ft x 2/3 = 7.45ft
That would make the sub coverage much narrower (suited for a long, narrow room/audience) with no power alleys or valleys. It is better to have overlap and power alleys/valleys, but cover your whole audience than have a sub array that's to narrow, but no power alleys and valleys.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio thanks for this great video Michael! I play in a wedding band with R and L set up and during sound check I walk out with my wireless and also feel a lack of bass in the middle. Normally they are 15-20ft apart. Would you say the most I could have them apart would around 12ft? Thanks
@@JacoBrownolymetal666 I'd say best case scenario is placing your Mains speakers L and R for the best high frequency coverage, then if you're able to move your subs to the center, have them right next to each other in the center for even low end throughout. If you can't put your subs in the center, I'd just stick with having them paired with your mains speakers so those are coupled together.
@@MichaelCurtisAudio hi, thanks for this. If placing them in the centre is not an option and I have to go with R and L how far apart/how close would you say that both sides need to be to make it work best ? 12ft?
@@JacoBrownolymetal666 Best case scenario if you're spacing them is to have them 5.5ft apart of less so you don't get any side lobes, but most stages are wider than that. Just get them as close as you can given the stage width you have.
Cheers from France! Thx for your videos !
Absolutely! Happy to help. Anything that would be particularly helpful to touch on next?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Just discovered your channel a week ago, still asn't got the time to watch all your videos as work is coming back after covid here..
Always interesting to observe other's workflow and point of view, espacially when they're overseas. You got me into buying Bob Mc carthy's book for sure!
For the next one ...maybe measuring mic placement, still hearing a lot of myth about it, should be great ! I know Nathan Lively from sound design live channel did a lot about this topic but the more content we got the better it is!
@@ARCangeization Great info! Yes, I've got some videos in the pipeline on mic placement. And you're asking for measurement mic placement specifically for subs or for the whole rig in the tuning workflow in general?
@@MichaelCurtisAudio Both ! ;)
@@ARCangeization On it : )
Why am not surprised you’ve even got the best sounding mic on TH-cam! Love the content
Ha! Just a Kel Audio HM-2D through a bit of processing : )
First thing I noticed when I found his videos, a lot of other pro sound guys, studio and live have awful sounding vids.
@@daavneeq Glad y'all appreciate that! I figured quality audio in my own videos would help vouch for my audio skills in other areas.