I was in the motor industry and a few projects came to my attention from this region. They all sounded good on paper and lord knows how much money was going to consultants but they were still a long way from practical realities. How much money was being wasted and perhaps disappearing on grandiose vanity projects while proline lived in real hardship!
A comment on your digression on coffee cups: At one time Beech was testing a higher horsepower P&W version of the A-100 i.e. C-100, marketing had already distributed coffee cups to dealers showing the “performance figures”. Flight test actually published a memo comparing flight test results to “cup data”, not favorably either.
I love the way Ron uses the term "interesting". An astronaut gave a talk, and I thought that was interesting. The 4th engine flamed out, and I thought that was interesting. This very much appeals to my British persuasion.
I have a friend who is a retired FedEx Captain. He uses "interesting" the same way Ron does. It's kinda interesting. It must be a retired wide-body captain thing.
Chuck Yeager could have used your help in designing the NF-104. HE had no control over the aircraft once the engine quit functioning even with the drag chute deployed the engine failed restart and after releasing it the controls were frozen in place a electrical back up over the failed hydraulic controls would have been handy.
Cultural differences? Experiences? The initial definition of success keeps changing when you are new to something. When you are new you can’t imagine the number of ways things can go wrong. Interesting video.
The 235 being a joint development between CASA and ITPM, and being used by a Spanish airline for 8 years or so, makes me feel like the lack of faith was mainly on the operator. Also, this 250 looks pretty similar to the 42 and 72, esthetically at least.
“Indonesia's IPTN lost its chief test pilot, Erwin Danoewinata, in a crash of a company CN-235 military transport aircraft. Erwin and five other crew died when the aircraft stalled on 22 May (1997?)during a trial low-altitude cargo parachute drop. The company blames the crash on a failed parachute.” R.I.P.
Dash 8 is the best of that type. Dash 8 A&P for 14 years, I it was great. Ron mentions Jack Jarvis as the turboprop expert. He is. He was a captain for Henson / Piedmont during my time there. He is a superior pilot and knows his shit.
Hey I watch all the time I think you're a great guy with great stories. You've done some really cool stuff and that great lakes plane looks super fun. Thanks for sharing
Have to second that opinion Ron. You're doing a genuine service to history by recording all your stories and recollections, not to mention they make for awesome content too! It makes me wish that so many more important people in the history of aerospace (and history in general) had the kind of access to ubiquitous recording equipment and free online video hosting and sharing we have today, and the desire and will to do what you're doing. To think of all the stories and memories people like Kelly Johnson or Neil Armstrong or Robert Goddard or Scott Crossfield or Joe Walker, etc never had the chance or just never bothered to record that are now gone forever is a real shame. Even memories and stories which probably seemed totally unremarkable to them would have added fascinating and important context to our understanding of their lives, their personalities, their accomplishments, etc. Thanks again for everything you do and keep up the great work 👍
thanks so much and yes, people with stories much better than mine have been lost to history. I did publish the SETP interviews with famous test pilots earlier so you might look for those.
Thank you @ronrogers for another great video! This one was particularly interesting in that it gave me new appreciation for the rugged quality and versatility of Soviet aircraft. 😅
The original Apollo one spacecraft that killed the astronauts comes to mind. North American aircraft did just as good a job with the Apollo spacecraft as this company did with their airplane.
Are cockpit layouts proprietary? Because if not, if I were tasked with designing a cockpit, I'd go look at the cockpits of similar established designs and pretty much take inspiration from (copy?) their layouts. Why not go with what has proven successful already? It also should make transitioning pilots to the new plane from the others a bit easier. BTW, do you have another TH-cam channel? Your voice is very familiar.
Ron... two questions: 1. How does this list of issues compare in number and severity to that of other planes you looked at? 2. I always found the term "FADEC" to be a little weird... is there any such thing as a partial-authority digital engine control?
I'll leave 1) to Ron, but as for 2) the answer is yes. It's simply known as an EEC aka electronic engine control/controller (or ECU aka engine control unit), basically any electronic engine management system that has manual reversion. Many FADEC's have an EEC or ECU, but not all engines with an EEC/ECU have FADEC.
Very good response on #2 and as far as one, this was the most seriously deficient aircraft design, in modern aircraft terms, that I have seen. I am going to do a video about the Goblin, but that is in a different class.
interesting. I worked for the stall warning system vendor at that time. As for the N-235, that was a licensed built CASA. Except for bad manufacturing, was a proven design. Wonder why they didn't trust it. On paper, the N-250 should've been competitive, but this was a first attempt at an indigenous design.
Im from a different industry. why didnt they do like everyone else and adopt a licensed design and set up to manufacture it to western standards? Fyi I spent many years in far east in places like Singapore Japan and Korea so I know its possible.
I remember in the day's Indonesian customers were talking about it and where verry proud. Interesting, since for the time it was a pretty fast aicraft. Never heard about this promissing vehicle after that, now I know why. Stil.... I... just wonder.... Ron, If you would ask your mother in law's heardresser to design an aircraft. Would you think, he/she/it/them would make such crusial (how do you say 'having sex' politely) F... - Ups ? I mean... I'm not by any means an aircraft designer, though a rudder during N-1 would realy suit most pilots won't it ? The system overviews you showed, would be ok for me (authistic technician) but most pilots probarly would have no clue. Why did they choose Allissons ? Nothing wrong with those, but they sure are not designed for the novice aircraft designer. Ehhhmmmm for (again having sex) F-sake why go for Fly-By-Wire rather then fly by strings, on your first design ? Who came up with this idea and what kind of managment job does he have right now ? Finaly.... Ron.... i think your wife, is a wise woman ? Ohh btw, Do you know the Fokker-100 originaly could not be restarted without APU ? The igniters where not wired to the Essential-DC bus ! (i had to experience) This was later changed A the APU only could be started below Fl-100... (or a little higher when stil warm).. Pfff Stil this was the only real item i remember on the -100.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 76 | คู่เอก "ผึ้งหลวง vs สมิงดำ"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9SBshmGQOIM/mqdefault.jpg)
I was in the motor industry and a few projects came to my attention from this region. They all sounded good on paper and lord knows how much money was going to consultants but they were still a long way from practical realities. How much money was being wasted and perhaps disappearing on grandiose vanity projects while proline lived in real hardship!
A comment on your digression on coffee cups: At one time Beech was testing a higher horsepower P&W version of the A-100 i.e. C-100, marketing had already distributed coffee cups to dealers showing the “performance figures”. Flight test actually published a memo comparing flight test results to “cup data”, not favorably either.
I love the way Ron uses the term "interesting".
An astronaut gave a talk, and I thought that was interesting.
The 4th engine flamed out, and I thought that was interesting.
This very much appeals to my British persuasion.
Interesting
I have a friend who is a retired FedEx Captain. He uses "interesting" the same way Ron does. It's kinda interesting. It must be a retired wide-body captain thing.
Well, it's easy to avoid the N-250, as only two were built, and have both been retired.
But, I flew on some CN-235s built by IPTN!
So basically they brought you over to teach them how to build an airplane. Fascinating!
Basically!
Chuck Yeager could have used your help in designing the NF-104. HE had no control over the aircraft once the engine quit functioning even with the drag chute deployed the engine failed restart and after releasing it the controls were frozen in place a electrical back up over the failed hydraulic controls would have been handy.
Cultural differences? Experiences?
The initial definition of success keeps changing when you are new to something. When you are new you can’t imagine the number of ways things can go wrong.
Interesting video.
The 235 being a joint development between CASA and ITPM, and being used by a Spanish airline for 8 years or so, makes me feel like the lack of faith was mainly on the operator. Also, this 250 looks pretty similar to the 42 and 72, esthetically at least.
“Indonesia's IPTN lost its chief test pilot, Erwin Danoewinata, in a crash of a company CN-235 military transport aircraft. Erwin and five other crew died when the aircraft stalled on 22 May (1997?)during a trial low-altitude cargo parachute drop. The company blames the crash on a failed parachute.”
R.I.P.
That was an accident caused by faulty LAPES load release sequence, nothing to do with CN 235 aircraft design or pilot's skill.
I wouldn’t fly that thing, even if me, nor the plane, had a parachute.
This is painful to listen to! Just buy a Dash8 and relax!
No kidding. What a piece of junk.
Dash 8 is the best of that type. Dash 8 A&P for 14 years, I it was great.
Ron mentions Jack Jarvis as the turboprop expert. He is. He was a captain for Henson / Piedmont during my time there. He is a superior pilot and knows his shit.
Correction:
The N-250 was moved into Adisucipto AFB, Yogyakarta, which is in a few hours' journey from Jakarta by train.
Hey I watch all the time I think you're a great guy with great stories. You've done some really cool stuff and that great lakes plane looks super fun. Thanks for sharing
Glad you like them!
Have to second that opinion Ron. You're doing a genuine service to history by recording all your stories and recollections, not to mention they make for awesome content too! It makes me wish that so many more important people in the history of aerospace (and history in general) had the kind of access to ubiquitous recording equipment and free online video hosting and sharing we have today, and the desire and will to do what you're doing. To think of all the stories and memories people like Kelly Johnson or Neil Armstrong or Robert Goddard or Scott Crossfield or Joe Walker, etc never had the chance or just never bothered to record that are now gone forever is a real shame. Even memories and stories which probably seemed totally unremarkable to them would have added fascinating and important context to our understanding of their lives, their personalities, their accomplishments, etc. Thanks again for everything you do and keep up the great work 👍
thanks so much and yes, people with stories much better than mine have been lost to history. I did publish the SETP interviews with famous test pilots earlier so you might look for those.
"Hot Mess" comes to mind!
And dumpster fire. Hahaha
Thank you @ronrogers for another great video! This one was particularly interesting in that it gave me new appreciation for the rugged quality and versatility of Soviet aircraft. 😅
Good one as always sir. Thank you and keep 'em coming please!
More to come!
The original Apollo one spacecraft that killed the astronauts comes to mind. North American aircraft did just as good a job with the Apollo spacecraft as this company did with their airplane.
Yes, I have that problem with spellcheck. Then I change the word and still no joy.
Indonesian baggage is always virtual ...
No need for storage ...
This is terrifying
Amazing story. Thanks for sharing
Glad you enjoyed it!
Fascinating and very interesting video! I hope you aren't going to be brigaded since it's been shared around the Indonesian part of the internet
Are cockpit layouts proprietary? Because if not, if I were tasked with designing a cockpit, I'd go look at the cockpits of similar established designs and pretty much take inspiration from (copy?) their layouts. Why not go with what has proven successful already? It also should make transitioning pilots to the new plane from the others a bit easier.
BTW, do you have another TH-cam channel? Your voice is very familiar.
No, this is the only one (channel). And there are design standards that people should follow on design.
Their design aptitude mirrors their air carrier operating safety culture and associated history.
I will rag on Aérospatiale any chance I get... But holy crap, compared to this monstrosity it makes the ATR look good!
That looks a lot like the ATR-72 - which doesn't have a particularly good safety record
Ron... two questions:
1. How does this list of issues compare in number and severity to that of other planes you looked at?
2. I always found the term "FADEC" to be a little weird... is there any such thing as a partial-authority digital engine control?
I'll leave 1) to Ron, but as for 2) the answer is yes. It's simply known as an EEC aka electronic engine control/controller (or ECU aka engine control unit), basically any electronic engine management system that has manual reversion. Many FADEC's have an EEC or ECU, but not all engines with an EEC/ECU have FADEC.
Very good response on #2 and as far as one, this was the most seriously deficient aircraft design, in modern aircraft terms, that I have seen. I am going to do a video about the Goblin, but that is in a different class.
interesting. I worked for the stall warning system vendor at that time. As for the N-235, that was a licensed built CASA. Except for bad manufacturing, was a proven design. Wonder why they didn't trust it. On paper, the N-250 should've been competitive, but this was a first attempt at an indigenous design.
The weather in bandung can become interesting and the merpati pilots too
Was it a Florida based company that was the launch customer for this aircraft?
I don’t remember there being a launch customer.
Looked similar to the dornier 328 that I’ve flown similar era.
"That's just not going to be a good thing"........x27
Ron, did your wedding in any way resemble the intro of "James Bond - Licence to kill" ?
Sounds like design by committee too many cooks in the kitchen. Most important point…..listen to your wife
You are right!
Im from a different industry. why didnt they do like everyone else and adopt a licensed design and set up to manufacture it to western standards? Fyi I spent many years in far east in places like Singapore Japan and Korea so I know its possible.
No airplane manufacturer would agree to that, there’s just too much that can go wrong
I think they were really trying, just not doing very well. Hired the wrong consultants.
N5150 is still registered to a Breazy 😊
Wow...kind of a low point for you sir! Haha.
I remember in the day's Indonesian customers were talking about it and where verry proud.
Interesting, since for the time it was a pretty fast aicraft.
Never heard about this promissing vehicle after that, now I know why.
Stil.... I... just wonder....
Ron,
If you would ask your mother in law's heardresser to design an aircraft.
Would you think, he/she/it/them would make such crusial (how do you say 'having sex' politely) F... - Ups ?
I mean... I'm not by any means an aircraft designer, though a rudder during N-1 would realy suit most pilots won't it ?
The system overviews you showed, would be ok for me (authistic technician) but most pilots probarly would have no clue.
Why did they choose Allissons ? Nothing wrong with those, but they sure are not designed for the novice aircraft designer.
Ehhhmmmm for (again having sex) F-sake why go for Fly-By-Wire rather then fly by strings, on your first design ? Who came up with this idea and what kind of managment job does he have right now ?
Finaly.... Ron.... i think your wife, is a wise woman ?
Ohh btw,
Do you know the Fokker-100 originaly could not be restarted without APU ?
The igniters where not wired to the Essential-DC bus ! (i had to experience)
This was later changed
A the APU only could be started below Fl-100... (or a little higher when stil warm).. Pfff
Stil this was the only real item i remember on the -100.
Indonesian/SEA aviation always scares the hell out of me
11:06 6?
Boy, you are full of stories.
The Higgins of aviation 😊
But I don’t get tired of them
@@tomcook5813 Yes, they are varied, interesting, and enjoyable.