@@bradj8215 ATC offered numerous suggestions to assist the crew. At no time was the controller giving up on the aircraft returning. Departures stopped by him, coordination effected with regards to a possible diversion or return (to more than one airport). He did what he was supposed to do.
@@carlsoll I heard they blamed him. My manager at the time in VA owned a third generation business 13 blocks from from watching his best friend who was in one of the towers. The next morning I went straight to his office. He said, “New York needed that.”
Since you tend to be tougher on the pilots as a pilot, I'm gonna be harder on ATC because I'm a controller... The controller talking to 9UP Should hang up her headset. That's just embarrassing as a controller. As Kelsey Pretty much stated and I will add...a good controller would have given the pertinent weather instead of Is asking the pilot to verify he had the information. That's adding stress to an already very stressful situation. The pilot literally said he had his hands full. With all that being said I would take the loss of my ratings over a loss of human life any day... "AO"
I was under the impression that the controller is supposed to be minimize communication with the pilot? As it just adds to their workload. so reading out information they might already have doesn’t sound helpful so much as a distraction. I haven’t gotten to that section of the video yet so maybe I’ll change my tune soon :)
@@kmhkennedy ATC knows what info a pilot needs to know. They also know what the pilot has to do to obtain weather info at the field after passing "information Lima". It's quite clear the pilot isn't doing anything important based on his comms so he has plenty of time to listen to the full ATIS message (sarcasm). You are correct that ATC shouldn't do anything to make an already stressful situation worse which is what she did. Controllers know that pilots will always prioritize aviating and navigating over talking to them but that doesn't mean they don't wanna anyone to pass info to them. That info might be helping the situation even if the controller doesn't know it. This is why you hear controllers still passing info in most cases, like in the Sully audio, even without any response. Task saturation is a threat in stressful situations like this. ATC cannot help physicaly pilot the aircraft so doing what they can to help that pilot with tasks they can affect and maybe take something off the pilots plate they should.
Agreed. The pilot said, "The door flew off the aircraft," and ATC wants them to CLIMB? I understand minimums and that, but this immediately sounded like a situation where the "book" has to be taken more as a guideline and just get that plane back on the ground already.
Jordan Peterson is really observant and talks about this concept: even if the material is beyond your grasp, an good author is good when they are able to explain their points. He mentions as a Psychologist he isn’t talented at math, but he’s read in depth books and can tell when someone is just NOT good at making a point. The OP here is correct, 74 does great at explaining stuff way beyond my understanding.
The first time as a 200 hour PPL that I landed at a major international airport, all went pretty well until after I had landed, and I was feeling pretty proud of myself as I swiftly vacated the runway at the first exit and switched to ground frequency as requested. Job done! Nope. The fast barrage of complex taxi instructions might as well have been spoken in Greek. Totally overwhelmed, I weakly replied, "Erm, request progressives ... please?" The controller came back with a chuckle - "Just wait there little fella, I'll send a followme vehicle ..." Profound relief!
Both the taxiway lights and signs are arranged and spaced to be viewed from a cockpit that is at least 20 feet off the ground. Navigating an airport environment when your butt is a mere four feet off the ground is difficult indeed.
In South Africa we generally use "Trainer 1" as our callsign in the simulator. One day out of Johannesburg an aircraft had a bird strike and the pilot came on the radio "Mayday mayday mayday Trainer 1 bird strike... " instead of using his actual callsign, the ATC just went with it and used "Trainer 1" as his callsign while they returned to the airport. The ATC was accommodating, knowing that the pilot was comfortable with the callsign and just continuing with it.
I am a Lufthansa-pilot and we have the same story here. We always used LH123 during our simulator sessions and same thing happened in real life later. Now we use different and actual callsigns to avoid this to happen again. Makes sense but I am really not sure wether this actually happened ...maybe it´s just a nice story to laugh about.
Literally had no interest in airlines, pilots, ATC anything like that yesterday. At work today and stumbled upon this treasure of a man. Now I can’t stop watching
During my air traffic controller training, we looked at the Hudson case and the actions of the responsible controller as a positive example. He did an amazing job, giving Sully all available options while keeping his transmissions short and causing as little distraction to the pilots as possible. If I ever become a part of an emergency situation as severe as this, I really hope I will perform like that controller did.
As someone who has no flying experience It was amazing to see the calculated quick thinking Decision making and running through all your options that quickly to save people’s lives , no time to make mistakes or get flustered!! Kudos to you
All you have to do to be efficient is remember a few thinks during an emergency. 1) The pilot NEEDS you to guide them. 2) The pilot is running checklists, AND flying at the same time while they're talking to you. So try to be as little of a distraction as possible. 3) When it comes to the aircraft, the pilot will usually always be right. Only time this doesn't apply is when the pilot doesn't know what aircraft they're flying, which normally doesn't ever happen. 4) A.N.C. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. That is the order all pilots follow. They will fly first and talk last. So, expect longer than normal responce time during an emergency. 5) DON'T PANIC! If you panic, the pilot will panic, and then the aircraft will panic. Then... it's not a fun day anymore. 6) BE THERE, BE PRESENT, BE READY. Emergencies dont happen all the time, but when they do, you have to be ready for it. Good luck! Safe flying! And as Kelsey would say, "Keep the blue side up!"
@@AT_Videography all things we're trained properly on at the academy, and to all future atc applicants, dont listen to youtube comments, including mine.
My grandfather flew with sully when sully was a FO and my grandfather a captain. (He had been retired shortly before 9/11 happened so hadn't flown with him for a LONG time) USAir was a huge airline at the time so they weren't partnered often but in my grandmothers own words my grandfather was "ecstatic!" when the news hit. His phrasing was along the lines of "That's Right! You fly the ...beep beep beep... plane!" According to grandma it was as if he was watching the super bowl, the world series, and the National open all in one, lol.
Retired controller here, and I wholeheartedly agree that second controller was no help at all and should have asked the supervisor to take over. She did not follow any trained procedures for handling this situation very poor controller
I’m an MEII and I had a student that wanted to fly somewhere for his lesson. We decided to fly from Tulsa to Lake Charles Louisiana. Hours before the lesson he asked if his Mother and Sister could go. He informed me that they were apprehensive about small planes. We were to take a Cessna 310, so I said okay, because being the ambassador for aviation that I am. The C310 was being flown by another CFI while I pre-flighted. Upon landing, he grounded the 310. I called the owner and he advised I could take his Piper Aztec for the day. The women definitely voiced apprehension and I could tell me student was playing ambassador too, however their vocalizing was coming off more as nervous chatter than serious fear. We loaded up and I talked the ladies through each task I would be putting my student through, so they would have some expectations and be less nervous. Sister really relaxed, but Mom, not so much. I isolated the headsets and addressed the situation with my student and he reassured me that was normal melodrama for Mom. I decided there may be some impending air sickness with mom, so I got more into IFR navigation / multi engine work to keep the motion part to a minimum. It was a beautiful day with many small vertical clouds and we had filed IFR so we quit dodging clouds and started popping in an out of them, however this started to get bumpy for Mom and again I sensed an impending air sickness incident. Just about then a loud chunk was heard and within 4 revolutions the critical engine just stopped frozen. I put my student through his paces and he was at best doing a C- job of handling it, but he wasn’t F-ing the situation so I let him continue. Sister kinda knew it was real, but Mom thought it was still all training. We declared an emergency and asked for vectors to the nearest. To my surprise, I was soon getting vectors to and talking with a Barksdle AFB controller. I reassured the controller that although it was a training flight, we had numerous options and we were maintaining altitude with an ever so slight decent rate, so if he would rather we not AFB it, I was okay with that for now. He was THE BEST controller I’ve ever dealt with-period, and on top of that he sounded quite young. I lamented to him that although this was taxing my student and I knew we’d be okay, I still wanted to take this lesson up a notch or two in order to not waste the real world experience we were having. I let the student do all the talking to the controller from then on-but- when he repeated the declaration of emergency (done to fully start the lesson from the top), that’s when it hit Mom that this was really happening. My student was just starting to come down off the initial shock of what was happening, when Mom went full-on freak-out. I tried to reassure her, Sis tried to, and my student kinda barked at her to stop. Well, she started whooping, streaking, and grabbing. It got really bad really quick. I then declared to the controller that I was now having a real emergency. The controller could hear her freak out during my call. My student started to get too distracted by Mom’s antics and he was looking for me to take over. I put my left hand on his right hand on the throttles and gave him a stern, yet reassuring look and said, “Aviate, Navigate, Communicate-now fly this plane and deal with the problem.” Although Mom never backed down a notch and hyperventilated on short final, it was like my student just tuned her out and latched on to the controller’s voice. As we saw Barksdale in the distance ( that’s one big, wide runway) I commented to the controller, that “everything is going good and we’re having a great learning experience up here”, to which the controller responded, “we all could use some real world, from time to time.” I knew he was still picking up Mom’s antics from the back. Although we were still IFR but again now below the clouds in beautiful VFR conditions, I pulled out my foggles, handed them to my student and instructed him to request an ASR approach. The controller gladly accepted, but I could tell he had to think about it for a second or two. As my student did some B+ flying and the controller spit out the turns, I could really get the sense that both my student & the controller were really into that approach. Mom never stopped even as we were rolling out. After learning we’d absolutely chunked a distributor, I requested to meet the controller. He told me he’d never gotten the opportunity to do a real ASR approach and certainly never expected to do one on an airplane moving “so slow”! I’ll always remember that day fondly. He really was a great tempered, super professional Controller. Mom, well, we had to spend the night awaiting repairs, so Sister rented a car and all three drove back. I flew home myself the next day. A Controller’s temperament, professionalism, and assistance can make ALL the difference, as he helped me take not one, but three issues (engine out, student, and Mom’s freak out) and keep it all in the realm of a great learning experience.
@Curt: That story was A+! I just wish I could hear and see mom's "whooping, streaking(what the heck is that?), and grabbing"! Thanks for sharing and for clearly contributing significantly to pilot competency!
@@jimmyrosen9424 surprised you won. I wouldn't consider flight hours to be refundable since you will always have them, regardless of whether you liked the school or not.
@@Avendesora its about technicality and theory, not about pragmatic and situation oriented quick solution. Its about to analyse all facts and data , developing analyses strategies. Thats what is done at universities, teaching general factors and see the whole picture. Thats how in the end handbooks and protocolls are made.
509UP is one of my company's aircraft. The PIC did a great job, despite the controller being awful, and he wasn't flying alone. We don't do that. Always two type-rated pilots in the cockpit. Besides that, the Citation (either the X pictured, or the XLS actually involved) isn't certified for single pilot operations. By the way, they weren't just dealing with an open door/airstair, but also with the loss of an engine. When the door flew open, a jacket flew out and went straight into the #1 engine. We do have terrain avoidance software on the airplanes, but we aren't supposed to use it as a primary means of avoiding the terrain. However, if it's all you got, you can point the aircraft toward the green returns, avoid the yellow, and the red will kill you. It shows the highest terrain elevation within the area you have displayed also. The controller is worried about minimum vectoring altitude, which gives a minimum of 1000 feet above the highest obstacle in the area, and only the controller knows it, but in a situation like this one, you shouldn't really care about having 1000 feet of clearance--just having enough to not hit anything! The only thing I might critique the pilot on is not having a plan for an emergency return ready to go. When I was in the Air Force, on an IFR flight (even if the weather was good), we were required to take off with the applicable emergency return instrument approach briefed and loaded, and tuned in (if the aircraft's systems allowed that). When I flew a jet that only had one VHF navigation receiver, I would have the navaid frequency needed for departure tuned in, and the one for the emergency return IAP set in the standby freq. These days I don't bother with a lot of setup if the weather is good and terrain isn't an issue, but when those things are a factor, I will at least have the applicable instrument approach loaded on the iPad, and the LOC freq for the emergency return tuned in. We are required to brief our plan for an emergency return, but it's important to also be ready to execute that plan. We all have the SDP loaded and ready to go when we're departing a mountainous airport that has one, just in case we lose an engine, but a lot of people are a bit complaceent when it comes to other airports. Also, not to be too nit-picky, but why are you showing a Citation X during that episode? There are plenty of good Citation XLS pictures to use. 😎
N509UP is registered as a Citation 560XL with the FAA, not an XLS, if that it is an XLS the registration may need to be amended. It appears that the jacket was not mentioned in the SDR, but engine damage was reported in it. Wheels Up leases the aircraft from Textron Financial Corp.
I don't get that, either. I'm not even IR (got the written done, but life happened, and I never completed the flight portion) and I'm always ready to return to the airport if something happens. I even have instruments set up to do so - for practice, if nothing else! (Doesn't help much if the ILS is down, though. Then again, if GPS RNAV works...) It just seems like common sense to set up beforehand to handle an emergency when you're going to be closest to the ground. That's not the time I want to be figuring out what to do.
As a former former emergency services personnel, I might not have made it 12 years if I said that unless it was my last day, which I did not say that. Yes that is a good analogy.
I am retired ATC from Miami ARTCC with a commercial pilot license with instrument and multi-engine ratings . I've had many emergency situations, hijackings, controlling Airforce 1, among other things. I was the last ARTCC controller to speak to EA401 before he was handed off to Miami Approach Control (not an emergency at that time). I only say these things because I've been on both sides of the fence. This controller should have been more in tune with what was going on and handled it better. As some of your viewers may not know, that controller probably had others helping her or should have. She should have known that the ILS was not functioning and at the very least, knew all the frequencies. There are coordinators, supervisors and adjacent controllers, or should be, available. Whenever an emergency is declared, priority is given to that aircraft. We try to be accommodating to everyone else when possible. Most pilots understand that when an emergency is in progress that they are not the priority. On another note, being a controller in Florida, we had many interesting situations. Besides hijackings to Cuba in the early days, there were many space shots off of Cape Kennedy. Several times when I was working high altitude sectors, I would get requests for pilots to spin circles over Orlando to watch the launches,especially the night launches. There were times that I've had 10-12 planes holding (obviously legally separated) until the shot got off. They were all thankful and, of course, the passengers were thoroughly impressed (a feather in the cap of the pilot). When it came time to line all these aircraft up for in sequence for the various approach controls, they were super cooperative. It doesn't hurt to maintain good relations on both sides and avoid unnecessary conflicts.
ATC, Patrick Harden, who Assisted the Crew of Flight Cactus 1549 definitely also deserves mad props for everything he did during that time. I believe he can also be attributed with the swift assistance at the landing site this crew received in evacuating the passengers to safety. He is a significant part of the reason their was no loss of life along with the flight crew and flight attendants in the back.
Actually he should have been minding his own business. Sulleny was the captain. We called him sulleny because his name was long. He wanted to ditch in the river and the air traffic boy told him tetertotter or teterboro as it's called in some cultures. Sulleny was wise enough not to listen to that no sequitur. Atc are bozos
I was a controller for 20yrs, that female controller irritated the 💩 out of me. She was parrot, not a controller, and didn’t know how to think outside the box or standard phraseology.
that’s exactly what i thought. i thought she was awful. that pilot landed himself. luckily the cloud level was high enough (as Kelsey says). jeez!!!!!!
I was there the day 9UP encountered the emergency situation and your opinion of the controllers' actions is spot on. I cringed as I listened to her transmissions. Yes, controllers' transmissions are scrutinized to the nth degree to determine if the controllers' actions may have contributed to the event and/or to ensure there were no rule violations. However, in an emergency situation like this, she should not have badgered the pilot about terrain and obstruction clearance and if he had the current ATIS. I believe it was after the second time she asked about terrain clearance, (still cringing) I suggested she "bring up" the Emergency Vectoring Obstruction Map (EVOM) which displays actual height of the terrain as opposed to Minimum Vectoring Altitude maps. It was after displaying the EVOM she calmed down a bit. One thing I will say in her defense as far as not knowing the localizer frequency, for runway 10, is she's a departure controller and didn't have that info readily available, Rwy 10 does not have a precision approach, and is seldom used. Her skills as a controller were average. She got the job done but didn't do well during heavy traffic volume or situations like the one 9UP encountered.
I'm an ATCO over here in Norway, and what you're saying about losing identification (radar contact) is absolutely right. Yes, there sometimes (although rarely) are blindspots that we know they'll fly through, but I always get a notch higher heightened sense of awareness every time someone goes off the scope. Add that to the fact that the aircraft is an emergency, and your stomach just drops. It's in our nature as ATCOs to want to know where everybody is, even those inside adjacent uncontrolled airspace, just because we want to make sure nobody gets into an accident, and if they do get into an accident, that we know where to send help. Whenever you guys have any issues, we can sometimes feel quite helpless, which is why we feel an urge to spew out information to help you guys. The human mind is an interesting thing. As EuroControl puts it: "The flight crew's perception is that there is too much to do in too little time, whilst the controller's perception is that there is a too long time between communications." Remember: We're here for you guys. If there's something you need, give us a holler, and we'll do our best to give it to ya. If it can't be done, we'll try to give you the next best thing. Props to everyone involved in the Miracle on the Hudson, from the flight crew to the rescue personnel, the ATS, heck even the passengers did a great job. That incident is a textbook example of how to respond to incidents.
don't hate the player hate the game. what's the incentive to help people if you're potentially ruining your own life in the process? it's the way she was told to act and the way the system wants her to act.
And also, if legal liability is not helping the preservation of life, it is not a good system either (this counts less in an actual emergency of course)
And when the FAA asks you why you were vectoring a plane below minimum vectoring altitude, and all you can say is "putting legal liability avoidance ahead of the preservation of human life is pretty inexcusable". so you go to prison for 50 years because you tried to help the pilot as much as possible while ignoring the legal liabilities and they still died. Or you ask them to maintain their own obstruction clearance, which also serves to advise them that you can't vector them around obstacles that you are unable to see on your scope, and if they cannot, it absolves you of legal liability AND you can then proceed to assist them however possible. the ATC was 100% correct. The pilot threw everything he knew about communication out the window the second an emergency happened, i can't say I blame him, but describing what is happening on the plane is unnecessary and will only distract and distress the ATC, he asked for the localizer frequency, now as an ATC you look up the localizer, your assist advises you that a NOTAM was issued this morning that the localizer for runway 10 is down, you have your assist call the airport to verify that the localizer is still defunct, when you know for certain, you advise the pilot of this, all in all, it was 20 seconds? she did make a mistake by advising to intercept a localizer that was down, but beside that, the ATC did their job well.
@@nunyabusiness9700 Liability insurance is there to cover accidents like that. If the ATC is negligent in their instructions and a plane goes down the company is held liable and the insurance pays for it. I can't believe the USA wouldn't have an insurance industry capable of underwriting those risks. And they could get that insurance internationally otherwise. So what now? An ATC is trained to hold back instructions that could save lives to avoid an increased insurance premium? Whatever way you spin it you are putting money ahead of lives. And your system is broken if that is the case. Perhaps I feel this way because I work in the UK insurance industry and our laws are nowhere near as prone to incessant litigation and outrageous punitive costs or court/lawyer fees even after settlement for the victims damages, which is what the insurance is really there to pay for. I bet if you or a family member were taking a flight you'd want ATC to value human life in an emergency more than money. Mistakes and errors happen, you shouldn't train controllers not to help in an emergency just to avoid the possibility of a mistake that will cost money.
The ATC handling the Sully emergency must’ve been so scared Respect to him for staying calm and trying to handle the situation so well. He really did everything he could in that situation.
The movie did a great job showing the rollercoaster of emotions the controller experienced. The controller testifying his story is also so moving to watch.
Agreed. Both Sully and Harten deserve equal praise. Even though Sully was unable to land on a runway, if he had then he was given multiple options because of Hartens efficient and professional work in giving him every option available. His testimony gave me chills, and I'm also glad that the movie Sully also recognized the significance his part in the emergency, because often I see only praise towards Sully (although he does deserve the praise he gets) and nobody else involved.
Long ago, my PPL Instructor had actually flown for the Blue Angels...and he made some VERY VALID points that SEEM to have faded away in today's TRSA mindset...let alone with the Class B airports...and that is what the FAA expects of 'PILOTS' and from 'ATC'. A pilot is RESPONSIBLE for flying the plane, and applying all 'best-practices' to ensure safety from pre-flight to tie-off/post-flight. An 'ATC' is PROUD to claim 'ownership' of the regional airspace...but with controllers like this one in particular, she does NOT take 'ownership' of her airspace, she does not know her jobsite's current outages (not knowing your localizer beacon is out???), and AT NO TIME does she take control to ensure she can guide, direct and ensure his safe landing (he says he cannot climb, and needs her to vector him in...in 'layperson terms' the pilot is saying 'I know I can't get high enough to avoid vertical obstacles, so can you route me around them, as in a slalom course, to keep me from hitting anything?')...because she is too wrapped up in 'protecting her liabilities' before she is, in getting people to the ground safely. As a pilot, you are very much like an 'automobile' or 'bus' driver...you operate the vehicle. ATC is like a policeman directing traffic. Once you declare an emergency, it IS THEIR ASSIGNED JOB to take you as the priority, in getting you where you need to go (to protect your passengers and cargo). There is no other way to 'view this'...if you don't like the job, there is always McDonalds...
Many years ago, I was approaching Glendale airport in AZ. I was flying an ultralight, (top speed 60 MPH,,, in a dive). After reporting at 10 miles out, I was told that I had 3 "heavies" (anything bigger that an ultralight) behind me. They request, I granted that they pass. At 3 miles out I had a Cessna 175 behind me and would arrive approximately at the same time. ATC asked and requested that I land on the taxi way. I did. (BTW. within the 10 miles and landing, I was asked several times, my speed and what was taking so long. At 4 miles, after being asked again, I reported that "I was peddling as fast as I could"!! When ATC acknowledged, I could hear a lot of laughter in the background). FYI I was a Cessna pilot before I flew ultralights.
As a pilot that was VERY hard to listen to. I don’t know how long I could stay professional in an emergency with a controller like that. Absolutely did not care one bit.
She handled the situation like a "pan-pan" when she should have handled it like the "mayday" it was. "We have lost a door" should definitely be a mayday, no matter the plane. In most other videos I've seen, the ATC informs on the weather conditions in both pan-pan and mayday without being asked for it (as it should be), and not trying to add to the workload of the pilot(s). I feel that the ATC in the clip could have been used to Cessnas and similar small planes, where a loose door might not be that big of a problem, and weren't used to larger planes. Anyway, I hope she learned from the experience, because apart from the obvious problems, she spoke clearly and had awareness.
@@geiroveeilertsen7112 It's true! I suppose I never looked at it that way. A Skyhawk with an open door is no big deal, a citation with an open door is a huge deal, hahaha. This is why I'm a big proponent of telling people to be VERY simple with what they say to ATC. This pilot kept saying "We" which is something we all do as well, but he was very likely single pilot. I understand her not wanting to take on the liability, but it's very hard to listen to. Kelsey did another video recently about an aircraft going into inadvertent IMC and he was spinning and rolling and screaming help god i'm gonna crash on the radio, and the controller gave him advice on control inputs. May well have saved his life but absolutely exposed him to liability im sure. I know which I'd rather have on my side, and most controllers are the latter.
@@Flying_fisher If memory serves me correctly, in that video it was not the controller who advised on the control inputs necessary to stabilize the aircraft, but a pilot in another aircraft on the same frequency.
There's this map called an Emergency Obstruction Vectoring Map that controllers can bring up showing the altitudes of all obstructions, to be used for vectoring in an emergency. Controllers should know all outages on their airports. Controllers shouldn't send emergency aircraft to other frequencies to get the weather when they can read it to them. Controllers are sitting safe on the ground. If they can't remember that, if they freeze or get stupid when a plane has an emergency, they need to find a new job.
EXCELLENT vid. I've never been a 747 pilot, but I HAVE been an Air Traffic Controller (1974 to 2008), and I have handled emergencies (many), and I just wanted to tell you that you were absolutely CORRECT about that controller working the EMER biz jet. I cringed listening to her! If she'd have demonstrated that attitude as a trainee of mine, I would have done all I could to get her OUT of the profession. Unfortunately, persons with such attitudes rarely "reveal" themselves until after check-out.
Curious observer ie: neither Pilot nor ATC. How many times does a Pilot have to ask for vectors before getting them? This pilot said (in as many words) "I'm going to need vectors" but he seems to have been totally ignored. What the heck?
Another thing I like about that Sully ATC recording is the attitude of the involved controllers. First the departure controller, but also the tower controllers. "We got an emergency right now." " OK get him in." no questions asked no hesitation just getting it done.
My boss is a retired regional ATC. He said that once, he got a call from a small private plane who declared an emergency, needing to land immediately. As luck would have it they were near a small uncontrolled rural airfield. My boss grew up in this same area and was able to sucessfully direct them to the airfield using landmarks, at night. I was impressed.
I could never be an air traffic controller. Like I always say, if I mess up at my job, at least no one dies. Their hamburger will just be messed up. :/
"I understand he's loading her up with a ton of information that she's not used to...I get it - but he's also not used to having a DOOR FLY OFF his plane either! Give him some slack" I lol'd at this amazing statement!
He has lives on the line while she’s sitting on a safe chair. Her behavior was inexcusable. Horrible. She should’ve been fired immediately but that probably didn’t happen. I’m upset this happened.
Yeah, the 2nd one is pretty nuts. He's got stuff flying around the cockpit trying to get out of the clouds and avoid terrain and she's bugging him about the ATIS.
Unfortunately, ATC goes into work every day with the understanding that when an emergency is called, it doesn't matter how great you do and how successfully you get an aircraft on the ground, that entire scenario will be scrutinized in excruciating detail. That's why she gives the altimeter several times - he probably had the altimeter recorded and set from both clearance and departure, but if she doesn't give it to him as well, she will get dinged for it even though it has no relevance to the situation at hand. Additionally, direct to Kelsey's point, if she can get him to confirm that he has ATIS, she can avoid taking up valuable airtime and his attention by reading it over the air. I think it was good of her to ask for him to confirm ATIS because she could avoid a long transmission when he might need the air for an additional call.
@@caseytaylor1487 You make some good points. But is the system working if her needing to cover her butt from procedural scuitny? I'm not saying yes or no. Both flying and ATC needs to be regulated, but too much becomes a burden, I suppose is my point.
@@davebartosh5 I definitely think there's room for improvement within the FAA/ATC management structure. For instance, I think it's ridiculous that a controller can get dinged for not giving an altimeter when the situation was otherwise an amazing save and the altimeter had no impact on the situation. Controllers joke about the way to respond on the air to an emergency call is to say, "Roger emergency, the altimeter is xxxx." This seems like a ridiculous thing to say, and generally is, but then you've checked that box and nobody can say that you didn't do it later on when you were inundated with handling the emergency. On the other hand, it is important to have certain procedures and safeguards for every operation, including emergencies. I think it's easy to argue that the FAA might be a little more stringent than is necessary, but they are also learning from their own past failures and many of these procedures are in place because somebody else didn't do it and airplanes crashed and people died because of the miss. When I was in ATC school, we were often taught not only the procedure, but the failure that caused it to be in the rule book. While the calls might be annoying to a pilot dealing with an emergency, there's probably a very good reason why that procedure is being utilized (even if it may not be relevant in that particular case). Additionally, while it's annoying that she keeps asking if he can maintain his own terrain and obstruction clearance, if he can take on that responsibility, that opens up lots of options for her. Thankfully, this all worked out in the end, but if she vectored them into a radio tower and killed everybody, that would be terrible for everybody involved.
I been there .. and it worries you flying down to crash.. as the atc controller said.. radar contact lost .. and you will not be able to hear me soon ..keep talking., you may not hear me but i will hear you. Tell me what you experienced.. the radio is yours. So i did .. 4 hours later the ATC controller Joe ...and me handshaked and hugged. Him crying being happy to see me..
ATC (Patrick) should have been recognized at least equally as Sully. That dude was on top of everything. On a 1 to 10 scale, this ATC gets a 27. As good as the landing! Awesome Patrick!!
You should write and request he be recognized if he hasn’t yet. Things happen when things are out in writing. Perhaps you could write what you posted here and send it to them? I’ll bet you’d get a response and he might be recognized if they agree. That would be great. My experience has been things happen if you put your thoughts in writing and mail them to the appropriate parties. I’ll bet the Airport could direct you who to contact avd their address as well. Thanks. 🙏✈
Have you herd the southwest one where the engine exploded up around or at cruise? They had a passenger sucked half way out a window and killed. It’s a female pilot and she makes sully look like he is panicked. Can’t remember the flight number but it was NY to Houston if I remember correctly. Think they land at philly if I’m not mistaken
@@derekrohan9619 I did hear about that one. Very unfortunate. The other two notable ones for me where the pilot maintained composure was 1. The decompression NW flight out of Detroit about 30 years ago. The crew on that flight handled it well. 2. The flight out of Miami to Atlanta (I think) that caught on fire after take off . The pilot was calm as can be. Unfortunately they did not make it. Rest their souls.
Without wanting to do a disservice to pilots that aren’t, I’m guess being military trained helped him be as calm as he was, military pilots seem to just take everything in their stride. There was a British Chinook pilot flying a casualty extraction mission in Afghanistan who took shrapnel to the head and then flew his damaged helicopter back to the base who sounds like he is getting a foot rub when he informs the crew he has been shot. Different stuff.
@@Jabber-ig3iw totally agree, military experience isnt the only thing that can help someone maintain composure but it surely is the most effective, those pilots do everything a normal pilot does but while being shot at
@@derekrohan9619 I think she was a fighter pilot trainer and grew up on bases in a flight family if I remember correctly. I think her dad and husband were both also pilots and her husband gave a cool sound bite at one point basically saying she was a phenomenal pilot!
I always forget about how good the ATC controller was during Sully's incident! I guess I just hadn't heard it in a long time but the response he got information was incredible absolutely incredible! I mean their dialogue was just INCREDIBLE to hear!
Controller here, that second aircraft is the result of a stiff controller who strictly follows rules. Nothing is wrong most of the time, but during grey areas it can be stressful. Vectoring an AC below an MVA is pretty much always a ratings list scenario. Nothing in the .65 (our rule book) says it’s ok for emergencies although it is common practice if they need it they need it. We really need a different rule book for emergency situations like this to be efficient. The only time I ever lost my ratings was clearing an emergency AC at 3000 feet for a visual approach that he requested during IFR weather. I informed the pilot the weather was IFR and instrument approaches were available if needed. Pilot said unable request visual airport in sight. I said cleared visual approach. Pilot landed fine. I got pulled out. Was told I should have said roger and let the pilot do it on his own. I still disagree as the last thing I imagine pilots want is to be told unable approach clearance or anything that sounds remotely like that 3 miles from an airport. However, .65 doesn’t make exceptions and my facility disagreed with me.
Two Remarks from an European pilot, who is no English native speaker: 1. For me, flying to the US always took a lot of concentration, because controllers and pilots communicated in their native language and did not give a damn about phraseology (same with any folks, speaking their native language on radio (French, Spanish, Chinese, Russian)). That's fair enough, but during emergencies it really undermines one asset, that any pilot/controller could use: structure. If I have an emergency, I give a Mayday-call and everyone on the frequency is instantly informed and knows, what to do. Also thank you for explaining the importance of "aviate navigate communicate" (which is also a great tool to get structure into a possibly overwhelming situation). For pilots, I would like to advertise TPAA or PPAA to deal with any demanding situation (it sure helped me a few times). 2. I talked a lot with our controllers over here and they told me, that they do not have the same legal "get free of jail card" as pilots do, meaning that they are not allowed to use any means they think necessary to handle a flight safely. We pilots (or at least I hope most of us) do have that paragraph in our operating manual, that we can do anything to safely conduct a flight, if it is necessary. Controllers don't have that, so if they are vectoring a plane below their minimum vectoring altitude, they may face a lawsuit. Perhaps this is different in the US (I would hope so). Also always remember, that we are all humans, prone to make mistakes (and sometimes to be really unhappy about something ;-) ). Thanks for the great video!
Amazing, you're telling me the people trying to wrangle the literal flying circus doesn't have the legal authority to actually save lives in an emergency situation, you just single handedly turned me off of being remotely interested in being an ATC, "Sorry buddy, I know you got serious issues but the company I work for is going to sue me or throw me in jail for dereliction of duty if I treat your emergency as an emergency! I can get the fire truck ready to put out your burning corpses or get the search and rescue ready to scrape you off into a jar for your family though!" That's straight up pathetic.
In India, terrain clearance is not on the controller. Just letting the flight crew know they're below the minimum sector altitude and need to maintain visual reference is enough, especially in an emergency.
all that is true BUT we've seen multiple occasions when the issue that citation pilot had has been fatal or near fatal just tell him he needs to be aware of his altitude and get on with getting him the assistance he needs... cause if he crashes cause shes too busy covering her own ass to help him after he declared an emergency she still aint gonna have a job either way and will still probably end up with a lawsuit either way... its a double edges sword.... and one she couldve handle way differently than she did. if i was ATC id rather lose my job making sure someone survived than to live with someone needlessly dying or being injured because i cared more about a job than thier life.
I used to work on the ATC equipment in the tower. The scariest feeling for a maintenance person is when an emergency is declared and you hope all of your equipment is working properly.
The idea that liability could even matter in life or death situation just boggles my mind. I remember learning in a first responder class that one of the top reasons people chose not to do CPR is fear of being sued/ liability, I was dumbfounded.
Yup. People say “oh you’re protected by the Good Samaritan laws” yeah but that doesn’t stop them from draining my bank with a long drawn out court case. Ideally it would be dropped before it started but it’s not a risk I’m willing to accept
Also you are under no obligation to perform CPR just because you are trained, it is your choice. Having said that I did perform when required. Survival rate is extremely low after cardiac arrest, as my instructor always said you can't get any more dead than dead so don't worry about it just do it.
Well, because if you're doing it right, you ARE going to cause significant injury. So while I've had training as a first responder, in reality, I have zero confidence in being able to correctly identify whether someone just passed out or is actually suffering from cardiac arrest. What if they just got dizzy because they skipped breakfast and lost consciousness and I messed up and couldn't find their pulse or something? I don't wanna break their ribs over a minor issue! And if I lived in the US, I absolutely would also be terrified about getting sued for causing unnecessary harm. That's not something I have to worry about where I live, but I'd still hesitate until it's too late out of fear to have "misidentified" the issue.
@@sleepysera We do have the good samaritan law. Plus I imagine most people would pick broken ribs over death. If someone was just unconscious, they would still be breathing.
During my training, one of my instructors told me, "The controller is there to help you and they usually will, but remember that at the end of your flight, they're going to go home - you have to be responsible for aviating and navigating. If the controller aims you towards a mountain and gets too busy to tell you to turn in time (think KFLG in a Cessna 172 on a busy weekend), it's up to you to say, 'Hey, there's a mountain in front of me, should I turn now?' before you turn into a geological artifact."
Oh so it’s always up to the pilot huh? How about when there is severe fog or a low ceiling? In that case it would be up to ATC, Especially when you are in the middle of an emergency!
@@NeverEnoughPyro40 Three words: "Situational Awareness." No it's not always easy and I haven't flown commercially or even turbines/jets, but I was expected to know where I was and what was next. In the end, yes, it's always the pilot. The pilot is the one in control of the airplane. You can do what ATC says or not do what they say, if you cannot or should not. You might have to fill out some paperwork afterwards but it's a lot easier to do if you're alive.
@@hireahitCA true true, and while I know no one is perfect, we all make mistakes and we are always learning, I do sincerely hope I never do anything as crazy as landing on a taxi way or such
I am a retired controller with 32 years and am currently a corporate pilot flying a Citation Sovereign. I agree with you 100% that the controller did a poor job of helping out the Citation pilot, although I don’t think I would necessarily blame her. During the last decade of my FAA career I saw the training requirements for controllers go rapidly and severely down hill. There used to be a pretty tough screening process to become a controller and the wash out rate was high. But the FAA in their infinite wisdom went to a “Train to Succeed” program. Their new philosophy was that given enough training anyone can be a controller. I thoroughly disagree. The screening process I went through was pass/fail and they were looking for those people that had the correct aptitude. Some people just don’t have what it takes. I’m not saying there’s any shame in that because as a kid I took several years of piano lessons. I just didn’t get it. To this day I couldn’t play you a song if my life depended on it! Unfortunately I think society in general is going that way. Everybody gets a participation letter and nobody is allowed to fail.
Totally agree. The idea that _"anyone can be trained to be an X"_ is fundamentally wrong, no matter what _X_ is. In my former working place, we once had a COO who seemed to believe that the whole production was a grey mass of people who could all be trained to do the same tasks. In real life it doesn't work out that way, mainly because people are different. I would be a useless ATC. _Edit: Wrong three-letter acronym._
The reference to participation trophys (letter) and how this mindset plays on real jobs is something I've never thought of - that was actually quite brilliant.
I don't know why TH-cam decided I wanted to watch this channel but I'm really enjoying having my world expand with knowledge about what goes on between pilots and control towers
Here in UK there was an interesting exchange between the passenger of a single engine light aircraft returning back home after a day out with his friend, the pilot and aircraft owner. Part way through the flight the pilot suffered a massive heart attack and died. John Wildey, the passenger got control of the plane but had zero flying experience. Eventually he managed to make a Mayday call on the radio and they began talking him through the process of approaching the airfield and then hopefully, landing. It took four attempts as each time he was coming in too fast so was told by ATC "not to worry and just go around again". John replied back, "it's alright for you mate, you're on the ground and i'm still up here in this bloody thing"!! After he successfully landed he told the ATC crew he knew he had to get the plane down because his daughter had invited him out for a meal that evening! 😂
For me, it's just how calmly Sully said that line despite the situation. It's just amazing to me that someone could be facing an easily fatal situation and still maintain that level of composure during situations trying to figure out any safe way to land.
@@joewileman4480 I think you are SO busy trying to figure out what you can do, and trying EVERYTHING, that in a way your fear kind of takes a back seat.
Kelsey is a true value producer. He is picking things out of the trash and turning them into entertaining, instructive, thougth provoking, relatable and potentially life saving lessons.
Wow I never realized I've never heard the actual real life conversation between ATC, Tower, Cactus and Teterboro until now. What an amazing job all of those guys did in that situation. Straight to point and rapid firing possible solutions at Cactus.
Just like to say "thank you" to all pilots, ground crew, controllers, attendants, everyone who dedicates their lives to flying us jerks around the world. I don't know how you do it, but I'm sure thankful that you do.
As you mentioned, when I first heard that tape of the communication between Sully and the tower, I was SO impressed at how quickly that guy in the tower was operating. Granted he wasn’t fully absorbing the gravity of the situation consciously, but when the airwaves resonated an emergency, he hit the gas making arrangements. Very cool. 😎
Retired ATC here, 2007. (Center, Approach, Tower). When I first heard the tape of the "Miracle on the Hudson", I cried, mostly in reaction to the pride I felt for the job the controller displayed. Proud now to see his professional actions are getting recognition.
I saw Captain Sullivan "land" his plane on the Hudson River that day ( NY side). Still can't fathom how smoothly, and ( I guess) gracefully his Hudson "runway" landing was. Skill, a team of professionals, and angels seemed to be the amazing formula!
A few years back, I attended a leadership conference at Disney (FL) featuring Sully as a keynote speaker. Hearing him talk through the ‘208 seconds’, in person, was something I’ll never forget ….
Agree 100% about the weather information. Asking a pilot in the middle of an emergency if he has the latest ATIS information means he has to find the frequency, dial it in, and likely listen to it for more than one full running (as it's rare to dial it in at the beginning of the message). When it's hitting the fan, this simply isn't going to happen.
Yeah, CYA and when your supervisor chews your ass for it, complain to HR about mobbing. Dead pilots tell no stories, and one emegency can bring you to the top in the pecking order. The top management of the airport can recognize a talent for keeping the airport out of legal trouble, and if planes crash - let them crash somewhere where they will be someone else's problem.
Yeah...perfect example of what not to do with that incompetent female controller. In Sullys case...the controller shows you how you want to handle an emergency!
in '94 there was a near mid-air in my airspace 100% not my doing, but one of the pilots checked on to my freq seconds before. I requested the tape and played it back over and over figuring out what I would have done differently. I created policies for myself that served me for the next 20 years. here's another tape of what not to do.
I sure enjoy your videos, Thank You, Sir. My most embarrassing flying event was getting lost at a giant complex airport. After several calls to Ground, a military AWACS told me to follow the grey four-engine plane with a flying saucer on top. They were going to the same runway and understood the complex taxiways. All was good but my passenger lost a lot of respect for my flying abilities.
Don't forget that if you get lost or befuddled you can always ask for a "Progressive Taxi". You may not make friends with the GND, but they will at least know you aren't going to bust any runway crossings or tangle up the conga line.
You have my respect Sir, for continuing to ask questions until you got an answer that made sense to you. The "dumb" question is the one you don't ask which then lands you in deep doo-doo.
I'm in charge of testing and evaluation at my ATC facility and I always get questioned about things like "why are we required to know the localizer frequency for tests?" 99.9% of the time you don't, but on that rare occasion like this, it could significantly improve the outcome of a situation and the level of service you are providing. One thing to note, controllers handle emergency aircraft almost routinely. Over 90% I'd say are low risk, standard scenarios. So sometimes it's hard for a controller to deviate from habitual control practices to meet an elevated level of service required, even though they might understand that this is a more critical situation. I think this can all be mitigated by a more in depth focus of CRM (crew resource management). There's a specific part of CRM called the decision making process. It's defined as a continuous loop of identifying problems and working to a solution while weighing all the information you have available to make the best decision for a given scenario. For us that can be learning a little more about what pilots have to deal with, some of their requirements, aircraft characteristics, etc. A pilot comes on the frequency in a panic talking about not being able to climb because a door fell off the plane probably doesn't warrant 4 transmissions asking to maintain terrain and obstruction clearance. Obviously the situation has deteriorated to the point that CYA and normal control practices are out the window. I agree with everything the pilot had to critique in that scenario.
That second scenario Kelsey, yeah I’m with you all the way on your assessment. I never want to be in an emergency talking to a controller who thinks that’s an acceptable way to behave!
It might be hard to snag a current ATC for an interview because they're government employees. Lots of regs and have to go through FAA public affairs, etc. But I'm sure there are plenty of retired or former military ATCs who would be cool with an interview.
"If one of the engines fell off my plane, that'd be a Pan-Pan, or maybe not even that." I remember a B-52 pilot talking about the same circumstance, he said "We probably wouldn't even notice if one fell off."
If you should have called a Mayday and didn’t you should be made to account for your actions. Mayday and Pan Pan give unambiguous information. Is American Air Law not clear about this?
I am binge watching, which explains this comment a whole year late, but I just gotta say, I love how Kelsey says honestly he has never been an ATC so he does more critical thinking about the pilot's actions and responses. I respect that acknowledgement a lot! And ADORE this channel!!
"Errr Uniform Papa, your emergency's a bit inconvenient right now. Could you take your bloody door and divert somewhere else! Take the hint I couldn't be less interested!" 🤣🤣 Lets just hope she couldn't hear him properly so didn't realize the urgency!
@@MikeF1189 for example, I do what I'm doing, I know what I need to do once I complete it , I see what else I need to do and finally I talk to whoever is on call. I apply it to phone calls iff what I'm doing is very important. If not I don't need to as I am on the ground and can resume my work after the phone call.
Can work if you’re driving and something goes wrong. Drive the car, figure out where you need to go, and if needed communicate your plans. I think some people get in a bad situation and end up freaking out and getting their priorities mixed up.
I've never listened to the radio of the Hudson miracle before. It's amazing how calm everyone was! Makes me trust the folks I'll fly with in the future even more ❤️
Once on a trip across country, I could hear the pilot talking to the ATC. I was then that I understood how the ATC would shepherd the plane point to point. I was especially impressed by the professionalism of the ATC and pilots. It was a good flight.
509 UP: I’m not a pilot but I live in the Bay Area and am familiar with SFO. SFO Localiser not working on Runway 10 is probably normal. 99% of landings are on Runway 28 from over the Bay. I have never seen an approach to SFO Runway 10 and probably only happens in emergencies. ATC should have known this immediately.
Legal liabilities prevents ATC from communicating clearly. That's bad, like existential bad. I honestly can't wait for the pilot to become obsolete. Couple decades ago now, Burt Rutan wanted to train his test pilots before Spaceship One was ready. His solution was to install a copy of X-Plane on the White Knight carrier aircraft, and told it to retard the performance to simulate Spaceship One in glide mode. He turned one plane into another plane with a video game, on hardware worse than what a smartwatch has today. What the heck is the hang up? A.I. scientists used to talk about how it was thousands of times harder to make a self-driving car than a self flying plane. This really should be a solved problem. Imagine commuting in an E-VTOL, for a small extra charge you can play any game that would benefit from a simulator seat. The computer would keep you going in the same general direction the same way of blizzard gets you to walk in circles, you just insert a little bias here and there the user will never notice. Then everyone can be a "pilot", for the equivalent of an Uber ride. Sim games could rent entire fleets for tournaments, buzzing around like mosquitoes. Audiences could use their own VR rigs to plug right into their favorite competitors, or even check out IRL "robot dance" that makes the whole thing possible. Those are the reasons I'm investing in anything that looks like it might even remotely disrupt the sector.
@@jtjames79 I'm a private pilot working on my commercial. My flight school uses X plane to start our training and I use it at home to practice. If you knew how often X plane crashes you would understand the hold up. Computer systems are still too prone to crashing and errors to be safe enough to be responsible for hundreds of lives. And sure, when things are working as they are supposed to there is software that could fly a plane and land it safely but in an emergency when things are not behaving as they should, or one or more systems has failed, then the auto pilot could use the "correct" inputs but make things worse. Computers still can't do an adequate job at reacting to the unexpected when compared to a human pilot; that is why all of the current automation in the cockpit is to help the pilot, not replace them.
@@joshmagnum7312 horse shit. X-Plane is decades old, I only used it as an example. Nice straw man though. Meanwhile SpaceX is fully autonomous, and Tesla is just months away. Just because you have tried nothing and are out of ideas doesn't make you right.
Good tip on saying "blocked". I've been stepped on and didn't know what to do. I repeated myself, but so did the guy who stepped on me. This kept happening until the controller addressed him by call sign and told him to stand by.
as a controller i usually listen for part of a callsign or type aircraft to use for clarification. I'll say "aircraft ending in BC or C172 calling say again, other aircraft standby."
I was flying out of CLT in a Piper Archer and this kept happening. Kinda got worried that I was clogging up all the jet traffic behind me by missing some critical ATC vectoring.
There should be like an indicator sound or light if both the out and in were being used @ same time. And a way to get either or repeated without having to ask. Quickly
@@mustangnawt1 There is. It's the speaker in the headset. If you hear somebody else's voice (mine, in my case), it means somebody else is transmitting. That sounds smartass, but sometimes it really comes down to a lack of awareness and a choice not to be bound by the rules of conversation. Show me a guy who interrupts on the ATC frequency, and I'll show you a guy who interrupts in face-to-face conversation.
Your first scenario raises a point which is valid for many occupations. These days there are generally two ways to approach any task - the ethical/right way, and the regulation/mandated way. They are often very different. During 45 years practicing medicine I often came up against the paradox of being mandated by a regulatory agency to do things one way, while the best thing for the patient was to do it another way. I always took the course that helped the patient most. If you are consistent in your insistence on doing the right thing, you will acquire a reputation that protects you from capricious criticism or discipline by the Small Minds.
The NORCAL controller was definitely more interested in following procedures for CYA in the inevitable tape review. I hope this gets talked about in their next facility training review.
@@raymarshall6721 You mean that place where the avionics are calling out 'Minimums' crossing over Balboa Navy Hospital on the approach to 27? The person/group that decided KSAN should be an international is even more incompetent.
The lightning fast communication between pilot and ATC in the Sully scenario is incredible. I can just imagine a scan of their brains being lit right up during this incident. "You only use 10 per cent of your brain"...until you find yourself in this situation. Another great video Kelsey, Cheers.
I watched a talk that Captain Sully did a few years back where he talked about why he was not able to give the ATC a ton of information in the moments leading up to the "crash". He talked about the theory of multi tasking, When we multi task we take 2 or three things we can normally do extremely well, and end up doing them poorly all at once and are prone to mistakes. It was his primary concern to fly the plane and get it to a safe place to land. ATC kept giving him runway numbers over and over. He did criticize himself for "sacrificing 3 or 4 valuable seconds" to think of the three words to tell his flight crew "BRACE FOR IMPACT" which at this moment was only 3.5 min after takoff and nobody knew they were going down in back. This no doubt saved some lives,
Kelsey 74 gear, that I've seen for years you are hands down the number one TH-cam intelligent program to watch. Your clarity sets the bar across the board for TH-cam and what it should be for. Thank you for your outstanding efforts !!
Forget chills. The Hudson landing audio chokes me to tears. Every time I hear it. Knowing the ending, it’s like watching any emotional sports play or wartime battle heroics. The fact that he saved it makes it MORE emotional than if he’d lost it. I think... thanks for your content as always. 😊👍👍
Man I wasn't planning to but I spent about 4 hours of my Sunday morning watching your videos with no sign of slowing down. Thanks for making these, Sir.
Wish I could have saved these radio calls but in police dispatch you get some hair raising stuff. At one of the two PDs I worked for there was a strict radio protocol. Signal ninety meant clear the frequency-except for the one emergency going on. Although one day we had two going on at the same time-officer under attack in one and cop rolled up on person having a heart attack on a busy freeway in the other. Signal thirteen was as important as the 90, which was officer under attack, so as soon as the 13 was called by the cop the dispatcher would announce the 90. Then, one night I called a 90 because I knew something was about to go down. Cop working alone, spotted suspicious vehicle and noticed that the four occupants had guns. He started calling in the license plate, then you heard the gun shots. As they began to shoot, he went from police phonetic code to military phonetic code. I realized he had just gone into survival mode. The shift supervisor, also a military vet, went into this mode. At that point I knew that unless the suspects ended up surrendering (they did) that it was going to be a bloodbath out there. In another occasion a serial killer chased and cornered. He was armed with a gun and because of a newly installed video camera this was one of the few situations where dispatch could give real time life saving instruction. The cop approaching the serial killer had taken a left instead of a right and was about to put himself in the field of fire. We corrected that and instructed the officer to just keep him bottled up until other officers could arrive as backup. In situations like that you can't believe how long thirty seconds could be. Anyway, the killer was bottled up, then ERT (SWAT) arrived on site. As soon as the serial killer saw the heavy hardware, he surrendered.
You are right. That controller on the Uniform Papa call was out of her depth and had blinders on. It wasn't just about passing off responsibility for maintaining obstruction clearance; she wasn't giving him what he asked for. Even in Vatsim most controllers know the Localizer frequency....she didn't know. She needs to be retrained.
I'm retired ATC. Reference the handling of N509UP, I am definitely NOT in the camp of defending the controller. He said he can't climb she keeps trying to climb him, he said he was unable to maintain his own terrain and obstacle clearance, once was enough stop asking. Other assorted problems you went over too I.E. weather etc.
I usually well up a bit hearing how perfect, yet desperate that interaction was between Patrick H and Captain Sullenberger. Pure miracle, like Taca Flight 110.
Kelsey, this was hard to listen to. I am a retired ATCS from the ARTCC in Cleveland. You are exactly right about the controller. She should be giving him the ATIS information rather than making him turn in and listen to it himself. Also, I knew all the NOTAM's and other pertinent information on all airports in my sector, regardless of size so I could relay that to a pilot without hesitation. Great videos my friend, keep up the good work.
The ATC controller for the Miracle on the Hudson flight was named Patrick Harten. He deserves more recognition.
In the movie (w/Tom Hanks) I think he was fired
@@bradj8215 Is that a question or a statement?
@@bradj8215 ATC offered numerous suggestions to assist the crew. At no time was the controller giving up on the aircraft returning. Departures stopped by him, coordination effected with regards to a possible diversion or return (to more than one airport). He did what he was supposed to do.
He got a drug test.
@@carlsoll I heard they blamed him. My manager at the time in VA owned a third generation business 13 blocks from from watching his best friend who was in one of the towers. The next morning I went straight to his office. He said, “New York needed that.”
Since you tend to be tougher on the pilots as a pilot, I'm gonna be harder on ATC because I'm a controller... The controller talking to 9UP Should hang up her headset. That's just embarrassing as a controller. As Kelsey Pretty much stated and I will add...a good controller would have given the pertinent weather instead of Is asking the pilot to verify he had the information. That's adding stress to an already very stressful situation. The pilot literally said he had his hands full. With all that being said I would take the loss of my ratings over a loss of human life any day... "AO"
I was under the impression that the controller is supposed to be minimize communication with the pilot? As it just adds to their workload. so reading out information they might already have doesn’t sound helpful so much as a distraction. I haven’t gotten to that section of the video yet so maybe I’ll change my tune soon :)
@@kmhkennedy ATC knows what info a pilot needs to know. They also know what the pilot has to do to obtain weather info at the field after passing "information Lima". It's quite clear the pilot isn't doing anything important based on his comms so he has plenty of time to listen to the full ATIS message (sarcasm). You are correct that ATC shouldn't do anything to make an already stressful situation worse which is what she did. Controllers know that pilots will always prioritize aviating and navigating over talking to them but that doesn't mean they don't wanna anyone to pass info to them. That info might be helping the situation even if the controller doesn't know it. This is why you hear controllers still passing info in most cases, like in the Sully audio, even without any response. Task saturation is a threat in stressful situations like this. ATC cannot help physicaly pilot the aircraft so doing what they can to help that pilot with tasks they can affect and maybe take something off the pilots plate they should.
As a controller as well I second that
Agreed. The pilot said, "The door flew off the aircraft," and ATC wants them to CLIMB? I understand minimums and that, but this immediately sounded like a situation where the "book" has to be taken more as a guideline and just get that plane back on the ground already.
we appreciate all the good controllers out there keep up the good work
I am not a pilot. I know nothing about being a pilot, but, man, you explain things very clearly and in a way that anyone can understand. thank you
You are now a pilot.
Congratulations, you are now a virtual pilot
@@norfolksouthernrailworks1543 I love this sh*t 😆
I'm quite an experienced pilot. I can pretty much fly any plane, so long as the controls are W-A-S-D
Jordan Peterson is really observant and talks about this concept: even if the material is beyond your grasp, an good author is good when they are able to explain their points.
He mentions as a Psychologist he isn’t talented at math, but he’s read in depth books and can tell when someone is just NOT good at making a point.
The OP here is correct, 74 does great at explaining stuff way beyond my understanding.
The first time as a 200 hour PPL that I landed at a major international airport, all went pretty well until after I had landed, and I was feeling pretty proud of myself as I swiftly vacated the runway at the first exit and switched to ground frequency as requested. Job done! Nope. The fast barrage of complex taxi instructions might as well have been spoken in Greek. Totally overwhelmed, I weakly replied, "Erm, request progressives ... please?" The controller came back with a chuckle - "Just wait there little fella, I'll send a followme vehicle ..." Profound relief!
Love this story
Awesome little fella love it.
Yep, some airports are harder to taxi then flying in emergency. Thank for mentioning Houston, Hobby is very stressful!😮
Both the taxiway lights and signs are arranged and spaced to be viewed from a cockpit that is at least 20 feet off the ground. Navigating an airport environment when your butt is a mere four feet off the ground is difficult indeed.
Wholesome
In South Africa we generally use "Trainer 1" as our callsign in the simulator. One day out of Johannesburg an aircraft had a bird strike and the pilot came on the radio "Mayday mayday mayday Trainer 1 bird strike... " instead of using his actual callsign, the ATC just went with it and used "Trainer 1" as his callsign while they returned to the airport. The ATC was accommodating, knowing that the pilot was comfortable with the callsign and just continuing with it.
That's pretty cute, and professional on the ATC.
Dit was nou skerp.
@@Oomdaan11 confirm your last trans.. B.
Amazing story, they made him feel the most comfortable to get him down. Well done!
I am a Lufthansa-pilot and we have the same story here. We always used LH123 during our simulator sessions and same thing happened in real life later. Now we use different and actual callsigns to avoid this to happen again. Makes sense but I am really not sure wether this actually happened ...maybe it´s just a nice story to laugh about.
Literally had no interest in airlines, pilots, ATC anything like that yesterday. At work today and stumbled upon this treasure of a man. Now I can’t stop watching
Welcome to rabbit hole. Wait til you have thousands into sims and what not lmao
Same, no real interest in this sort of thing but iv been watching all day
Check out Mentour Pilot, his videos are great too.
Same 😸
Same. Buying Microsoft flight sim on steam now.
During my air traffic controller training, we looked at the Hudson case and the actions of the responsible controller as a positive example. He did an amazing job, giving Sully all available options while keeping his transmissions short and causing as little distraction to the pilots as possible. If I ever become a part of an emergency situation as severe as this, I really hope I will perform like that controller did.
As someone who has no flying experience
It was amazing to see the calculated quick thinking
Decision making and running through all your options that quickly to save people’s lives , no time to make mistakes or get flustered!! Kudos to you
Don't hope, just do it! 😉
I cannot wait to get to OKC and start my training
All you have to do to be efficient is remember a few thinks during an emergency.
1) The pilot NEEDS you to guide them.
2) The pilot is running checklists, AND flying at the same time while they're talking to you. So try to be as little of a distraction as possible.
3) When it comes to the aircraft, the pilot will usually always be right. Only time this doesn't apply is when the pilot doesn't know what aircraft they're flying, which normally doesn't ever happen.
4) A.N.C. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate. That is the order all pilots follow. They will fly first and talk last. So, expect longer than normal responce time during an emergency.
5) DON'T PANIC! If you panic, the pilot will panic, and then the aircraft will panic. Then... it's not a fun day anymore.
6) BE THERE, BE PRESENT, BE READY. Emergencies dont happen all the time, but when they do, you have to be ready for it.
Good luck! Safe flying! And as Kelsey would say, "Keep the blue side up!"
@@AT_Videography all things we're trained properly on at the academy, and to all future atc applicants, dont listen to youtube comments, including mine.
My grandfather flew with sully when sully was a FO and my grandfather a captain. (He had been retired shortly before 9/11 happened so hadn't flown with him for a LONG time) USAir was a huge airline at the time so they weren't partnered often but in my grandmothers own words my grandfather was "ecstatic!" when the news hit. His phrasing was along the lines of "That's Right! You fly the ...beep beep beep... plane!" According to grandma it was as if he was watching the super bowl, the world series, and the National open all in one, lol.
I love this.
I’m a controller and you explained everything very well. I cringed pretty hard at the second controller really not helping at all…
The last person you want to deal with for an in flight emergency is "that's not my job"...
@@TBonerton nail on the head TBone!
She needs to go be a bus conductor now. She's no use controling fights. That Uniform Pap began to get on my nerves.
Retired controller here, and I wholeheartedly agree that second controller was no help at all and should have asked the supervisor to take over. She did not follow any trained procedures for handling this situation very poor controller
@@GirlyBellSeashell Hopefully, that poor excuse for a Controller is no longer employed.
Sully: Unable, we're gonna be in the Hudson.
ATC: Confirm you're responsible for obstacle clearance 😂
More like it would be "Unable landing clearance for the Hudson, landing will be at your own risk"
Screw a bunch of air controllers....just fly the airplane , fill out the paperwork later, go slap controller on your day off....
😂
bruh LOLOLOL
@@robertwilson3914 Have fun in jail
she's the type of controller to tell you to be sure to not hit anything when you crash
yeah, because as a rule you are not allowed to hit anything while you crash. It is in the rules, it is the law. :)
@@computerjantje YeS!
I feel sorry for her husband while he's driving her to go shopping....
Lovely comment 😂
@@andreasl-punkt lol TY XD
I’m an MEII and I had a student that wanted to fly somewhere for his lesson. We decided to fly from Tulsa to Lake Charles Louisiana. Hours before the lesson he asked if his Mother and Sister could go. He informed me that they were apprehensive about small planes. We were to take a Cessna 310, so I said okay, because being the ambassador for aviation that I am. The C310 was being flown by another CFI while I pre-flighted. Upon landing, he grounded the 310. I called the owner and he advised I could take his Piper Aztec for the day. The women definitely voiced apprehension and I could tell me student was playing ambassador too, however their vocalizing was coming off more as nervous chatter than serious fear. We loaded up and I talked the ladies through each task I would be putting my student through, so they would have some expectations and be less nervous. Sister really relaxed, but Mom, not so much. I isolated the headsets and addressed the situation with my student and he reassured me that was normal melodrama for Mom. I decided there may be some impending air sickness with mom, so I got more into IFR navigation / multi engine work to keep the motion part to a minimum. It was a beautiful day with many small vertical clouds and we had filed IFR so we quit dodging clouds and started popping in an out of them, however this started to get bumpy for Mom and again I sensed an impending air sickness incident. Just about then a loud chunk was heard and within 4 revolutions the critical engine just stopped frozen. I put my student through his paces and he was at best doing a C- job of handling it, but he wasn’t F-ing the situation so I let him continue. Sister kinda knew it was real, but Mom thought it was still all training. We declared an emergency and asked for vectors to the nearest. To my surprise, I was soon getting vectors to and talking with a Barksdle AFB controller. I reassured the controller that although it was a training flight, we had numerous options and we were maintaining altitude with an ever so slight decent rate, so if he would rather we not AFB it, I was okay with that for now. He was THE BEST controller I’ve ever dealt with-period, and on top of that he sounded quite young. I lamented to him that although this was taxing my student and I knew we’d be okay, I still wanted to take this lesson up a notch or two in order to not waste the real world experience we were having. I let the student do all the talking to the controller from then on-but- when he repeated the declaration of emergency (done to fully start the lesson from the top), that’s when it hit Mom that this was really happening. My student was just starting to come down off the initial shock of what was happening, when Mom went full-on freak-out. I tried to reassure her, Sis tried to, and my student kinda barked at her to stop. Well, she started whooping, streaking, and grabbing. It got really bad really quick. I then declared to the controller that I was now having a real emergency. The controller could hear her freak out during my call. My student started to get too distracted by Mom’s antics and he was looking for me to take over. I put my left hand on his right hand on the throttles and gave him a stern, yet reassuring look and said, “Aviate, Navigate, Communicate-now fly this plane and deal with the problem.” Although Mom never backed down a notch and hyperventilated on short final, it was like my student just tuned her out and latched on to the controller’s voice. As we saw Barksdale in the distance ( that’s one big, wide runway) I commented to the controller, that “everything is going good and we’re having a great learning experience up here”, to which the controller responded, “we all could use some real world, from time to time.” I knew he was still picking up Mom’s antics from the back. Although we were still IFR but again now below the clouds in beautiful VFR conditions, I pulled out my foggles, handed them to my student and instructed him to request an ASR approach. The controller gladly accepted, but I could tell he had to think about it for a second or two. As my student did some B+ flying and the controller spit out the turns, I could really get the sense that both my student & the controller were really into that approach. Mom never stopped even as we were rolling out. After learning we’d absolutely chunked a distributor, I requested to meet the controller. He told me he’d never gotten the opportunity to do a real ASR approach and certainly never expected to do one on an airplane moving “so slow”!
I’ll always remember that day fondly. He really was a great tempered, super professional Controller. Mom, well, we had to spend the night awaiting repairs, so Sister rented a car and all three drove back. I flew home myself the next day. A Controller’s temperament, professionalism, and assistance can make ALL the difference, as he helped me take not one, but three issues (engine out, student, and Mom’s freak out) and keep it all in the realm of a great learning experience.
This is one of the coolest things I ever read I was literally on the edge the whole time reading it talk about a great piece!
@Curt: That story was A+! I just wish I could hear and see mom's "whooping, streaking(what the heck is that?), and grabbing"! Thanks for sharing and for clearly contributing significantly to pilot competency!
Golden
I've had a couple of instructors like you, definitely an example to follow, great job!
@@jimmyrosen9424 surprised you won. I wouldn't consider flight hours to be refundable since you will always have them, regardless of whether you liked the school or not.
“The passengers are going to be pretty upset” understatement of the year xD
hahahaha, this guy is amazing.
when upset means yelling like crazy back there... :D
oh i can imagine
8 different cups of coffee spilled on 8 different types of suits
Nah they will be perfectly okay with cabin depressurization
This woman would have requested Sully to check the tide and water temperature in the Hudson.
Lol, I totally agree, the female controller did not help the pilot at all. She was like a robot. Thank God it was Patrick and not her helping Sully.
And she would still be right, Sully did take a risk in winter, everyone could drowned and freez to death...
😂😂
@@beckysam3913 Okay Becky lol I guess he shoulda crashed into a skyscraper b/c it's relative temperature was warmer.
@@Avendesora its about technicality and theory, not about pragmatic and situation oriented quick solution. Its about to analyse all facts and data , developing analyses strategies. Thats what is done at universities, teaching general factors and see the whole picture. Thats how in the end handbooks and protocolls are made.
“hey teterboro, cactus said he’d rather be in the hudson then land at that sorry excuse for an airport! go giants” - Tower
lmao
He probably just wanted to avoid New Jersey in general lol
- a former resident of NY and NJ
Yea.. that is a hard burn for your runway
The Giants play in NJ tho... like a mile from Teterboro lmao
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Hilarious
509UP is one of my company's aircraft. The PIC did a great job, despite the controller being awful, and he wasn't flying alone. We don't do that. Always two type-rated pilots in the cockpit. Besides that, the Citation (either the X pictured, or the XLS actually involved) isn't certified for single pilot operations. By the way, they weren't just dealing with an open door/airstair, but also with the loss of an engine. When the door flew open, a jacket flew out and went straight into the #1 engine.
We do have terrain avoidance software on the airplanes, but we aren't supposed to use it as a primary means of avoiding the terrain. However, if it's all you got, you can point the aircraft toward the green returns, avoid the yellow, and the red will kill you. It shows the highest terrain elevation within the area you have displayed also. The controller is worried about minimum vectoring altitude, which gives a minimum of 1000 feet above the highest obstacle in the area, and only the controller knows it, but in a situation like this one, you shouldn't really care about having 1000 feet of clearance--just having enough to not hit anything!
The only thing I might critique the pilot on is not having a plan for an emergency return ready to go. When I was in the Air Force, on an IFR flight (even if the weather was good), we were required to take off with the applicable emergency return instrument approach briefed and loaded, and tuned in (if the aircraft's systems allowed that). When I flew a jet that only had one VHF navigation receiver, I would have the navaid frequency needed for departure tuned in, and the one for the emergency return IAP set in the standby freq. These days I don't bother with a lot of setup if the weather is good and terrain isn't an issue, but when those things are a factor, I will at least have the applicable instrument approach loaded on the iPad, and the LOC freq for the emergency return tuned in. We are required to brief our plan for an emergency return, but it's important to also be ready to execute that plan. We all have the SDP loaded and ready to go when we're departing a mountainous airport that has one, just in case we lose an engine, but a lot of people are a bit complaceent when it comes to other airports.
Also, not to be too nit-picky, but why are you showing a Citation X during that episode? There are plenty of good Citation XLS pictures to use. 😎
N509UP is registered as a Citation 560XL with the FAA, not an XLS, if that it is an XLS the registration may need to be amended. It appears that the jacket was not mentioned in the SDR, but engine damage was reported in it.
Wheels Up leases the aircraft from Textron Financial Corp.
@@cassiopeiaclark9260 As far as FAA registration goes, the Excel, XLS and XLS+ are all Citation Excels.
Cool story bro
I don't get that, either. I'm not even IR (got the written done, but life happened, and I never completed the flight portion) and I'm always ready to return to the airport if something happens. I even have instruments set up to do so - for practice, if nothing else! (Doesn't help much if the ILS is down, though. Then again, if GPS RNAV works...)
It just seems like common sense to set up beforehand to handle an emergency when you're going to be closest to the ground. That's not the time I want to be figuring out what to do.
That controller needs to be grounded. Or pounded. Or hounded. Something.
Paramedic on the scene of an accident to patient: "Here's a number you can call to get your blood pressure taken. Let me know when you've got it."
Good analogy!
As a former former emergency services personnel, I might not have made it 12 years if I said that unless it was my last day, which I did not say that. Yes that is a good analogy.
As a career FF/Medic and a pilot, I had to give this a big thumbs up ! LMAO over this, good post !
This better reach 10K thumbs ups in 5 days, or else I'll eat my own joystick......
@@norfolksouthernrailworks1543 I think your next meal after your joystick meal will have to be hospital food.
Having been a controller for 27 years, I am just embarrassed at the incompetence of this controller. The problem is only getting worse.
Why is that?
Agreed
Agreed!
@@badlandskid Because the public in general is getting stupider
How did you like your job?
I am retired ATC from Miami ARTCC with a commercial pilot license with instrument and multi-engine ratings . I've had many emergency situations, hijackings, controlling Airforce 1, among other things. I was the last ARTCC controller to speak to EA401 before he was handed off to Miami Approach Control (not an emergency at that time). I only say these things because I've been on both sides of the fence. This controller should have been more in tune with what was going on and handled it better. As some of your viewers may not know, that controller probably had others helping her or should have. She should have known that the ILS was not functioning and at the very least, knew all the frequencies. There are coordinators, supervisors and adjacent controllers, or should be, available. Whenever an emergency is declared, priority is given to that aircraft. We try to be accommodating to everyone else when possible. Most pilots understand that when an emergency is in progress that they are not the priority.
On another note, being a controller in Florida, we had many interesting situations. Besides hijackings to Cuba in the early days, there were many space shots off of Cape Kennedy. Several times when I was working high altitude sectors, I would get requests for pilots to spin circles over Orlando to watch the launches,especially the night launches. There were times that I've had 10-12 planes holding (obviously legally separated) until the shot got off. They were all thankful and, of course, the passengers were thoroughly impressed (a feather in the cap of the pilot). When it came time to line all these aircraft up for in sequence for the various approach controls, they were super cooperative. It doesn't hurt to maintain good relations on both sides and avoid unnecessary conflicts.
Excellent commentary......you should consider starting your own channel....!!!!!!
I'm retired ZDC/ZTL ARTCC controller, ATP with 12,000 hours and currently fly my C414A. I'm with you, totally agree with your assessment.
Well said!
ATC, Patrick Harden, who Assisted the Crew of Flight Cactus 1549 definitely also deserves mad props for everything he did during that time. I believe he can also be attributed with the swift assistance at the landing site this crew received in evacuating the passengers to safety. He is a significant part of the reason their was no loss of life along with the flight crew and flight attendants in the back.
Actually he should have been minding his own business. Sulleny was the captain. We called him sulleny because his name was long. He wanted to ditch in the river and the air traffic boy told him tetertotter or teterboro as it's called in some cultures. Sulleny was wise enough not to listen to that no sequitur. Atc are bozos
@@seltonk5136 what
@@macattack144it is best to ignore the ramblings of the clinically insane.
@@wbeytel Amen, brother.
@@seltonk5136 crack isn't good for you
That controller talking to Sully was very sharp and quick. He did an excellent job.
I was a controller for 20yrs, that female controller irritated the 💩 out of me. She was parrot, not a controller, and didn’t know how to think outside the box or standard phraseology.
No damn common sense at all from that lady. People need to know how to prioritize life over logistics or law in emergencies.
that’s exactly what i thought. i thought she was awful. that pilot landed himself. luckily the cloud level was high enough (as Kelsey says). jeez!!!!!!
Yeah, she pissed me off too. Absolute garbage. Goes back to her piss poor training.
I feel sorry for her husband while he's driving her to go shopping....
Parroting phraseology. Very good description. She is fairly competent at recipes. A clerk. She is not a problem solver.
Former controller here....I can’t believe she was verifying And asking for the ATIS in that situation
What would you have done? I'm curious. You being a controller, I want your personal opinion, it interests me.
@@norfolksouthernrailworks1543 She should have given him the weather and a vector direct the field. She is incompetent.
Former controller here…there are incompetent controllers everywhere and this is one of them.
@@presidioned It's crazy looking at flights from this perspective! We're as passengers are just sitting there
@@eddieandujar6506 I have so much respect for controllers!
I was there the day 9UP encountered the emergency situation and your opinion of the controllers' actions is spot on. I cringed as I listened to her transmissions. Yes, controllers' transmissions are scrutinized to the nth degree to determine if the controllers' actions may have contributed to the event and/or to ensure there were no rule violations. However, in an emergency situation like this, she should not have badgered the pilot about terrain and obstruction clearance and if he had the current ATIS. I believe it was after the second time she asked about terrain clearance, (still cringing) I suggested she "bring up" the Emergency Vectoring Obstruction Map (EVOM) which displays actual height of the terrain as opposed to Minimum Vectoring Altitude maps. It was after displaying the EVOM she calmed down a bit. One thing I will say in her defense as far as not knowing the localizer frequency, for runway 10, is she's a departure controller and didn't have that info readily available, Rwy 10 does not have a precision approach, and is seldom used. Her skills as a controller were average. She got the job done but didn't do well during heavy traffic volume or situations like the one 9UP encountered.
Thanks for the info. Benefit of the doubt that you’re legit because it is definitely written like it is.
Again, thanks.
I'm an ATCO over here in Norway, and what you're saying about losing identification (radar contact) is absolutely right. Yes, there sometimes (although rarely) are blindspots that we know they'll fly through, but I always get a notch higher heightened sense of awareness every time someone goes off the scope. Add that to the fact that the aircraft is an emergency, and your stomach just drops. It's in our nature as ATCOs to want to know where everybody is, even those inside adjacent uncontrolled airspace, just because we want to make sure nobody gets into an accident, and if they do get into an accident, that we know where to send help. Whenever you guys have any issues, we can sometimes feel quite helpless, which is why we feel an urge to spew out information to help you guys. The human mind is an interesting thing. As EuroControl puts it: "The flight crew's perception is that there is too much to do in too little time, whilst the controller's perception is that there is a too long time between communications."
Remember: We're here for you guys. If there's something you need, give us a holler, and we'll do our best to give it to ya. If it can't be done, we'll try to give you the next best thing.
Props to everyone involved in the Miracle on the Hudson, from the flight crew to the rescue personnel, the ATS, heck even the passengers did a great job. That incident is a textbook example of how to respond to incidents.
Røyken?
You but do you have current weather to land?
Is your localizer running?
Heia Norge. Jeg bodde der ca. 11 aar🇧🇻👍 I'm fluent in Norwegian, but my spelling is rusty.
@@donnabaardsen5372 Kult! Hvor i Norge bodde du og hvor bor du nå?
Think putting legal liability avoidance ahead of the preservation of human life is pretty inexcusable to be honest.
don't hate the player hate the game. what's the incentive to help people if you're potentially ruining your own life in the process? it's the way she was told to act and the way the system wants her to act.
And also, if legal liability is not helping the preservation of life, it is not a good system either (this counts less in an actual emergency of course)
Doctors do this all the time.
And when the FAA asks you why you were vectoring a plane below minimum vectoring altitude, and all you can say is "putting legal liability avoidance ahead of the preservation of human life is pretty inexcusable". so you go to prison for 50 years because you tried to help the pilot as much as possible while ignoring the legal liabilities and they still died.
Or you ask them to maintain their own obstruction clearance, which also serves to advise them that you can't vector them around obstacles that you are unable to see on your scope, and if they cannot, it absolves you of legal liability AND you can then proceed to assist them however possible. the ATC was 100% correct.
The pilot threw everything he knew about communication out the window the second an emergency happened, i can't say I blame him, but describing what is happening on the plane is unnecessary and will only distract and distress the ATC, he asked for the localizer frequency, now as an ATC you look up the localizer, your assist advises you that a NOTAM was issued this morning that the localizer for runway 10 is down, you have your assist call the airport to verify that the localizer is still defunct, when you know for certain, you advise the pilot of this, all in all, it was 20 seconds? she did make a mistake by advising to intercept a localizer that was down, but beside that, the ATC did their job well.
@@nunyabusiness9700 Liability insurance is there to cover accidents like that. If the ATC is negligent in their instructions and a plane goes down the company is held liable and the insurance pays for it.
I can't believe the USA wouldn't have an insurance industry capable of underwriting those risks. And they could get that insurance internationally otherwise.
So what now? An ATC is trained to hold back instructions that could save lives to avoid an increased insurance premium?
Whatever way you spin it you are putting money ahead of lives. And your system is broken if that is the case.
Perhaps I feel this way because I work in the UK insurance industry and our laws are nowhere near as prone to incessant litigation and outrageous punitive costs or court/lawyer fees even after settlement for the victims damages, which is what the insurance is really there to pay for.
I bet if you or a family member were taking a flight you'd want ATC to value human life in an emergency more than money. Mistakes and errors happen, you shouldn't train controllers not to help in an emergency just to avoid the possibility of a mistake that will cost money.
The ATC handling the Sully emergency must’ve been so scared
Respect to him for staying calm and trying to handle the situation so well. He really did everything he could in that situation.
That ATC convo is still very hard to listen too.....
@@matthiasheppe Thanks for mentioning. I just checked him out too!
The movie did a great job showing the rollercoaster of emotions the controller experienced.
The controller testifying his story is also so moving to watch.
Agreed. Both Sully and Harten deserve equal praise. Even though Sully was unable to land on a runway, if he had then he was given multiple options because of Hartens efficient and professional work in giving him every option available. His testimony gave me chills, and I'm also glad that the movie Sully also recognized the significance his part in the emergency, because often I see only praise towards Sully (although he does deserve the praise he gets) and nobody else involved.
Controllers are not supposed to be scared, sane level voice every time. It just freaks people pit when you freak out
Long ago, my PPL Instructor had actually flown for the Blue Angels...and he made some VERY VALID points that SEEM to have faded away in today's TRSA mindset...let alone with the Class B airports...and that is what the FAA expects of 'PILOTS' and from 'ATC'. A pilot is RESPONSIBLE for flying the plane, and applying all 'best-practices' to ensure safety from pre-flight to tie-off/post-flight. An 'ATC' is PROUD to claim 'ownership' of the regional airspace...but with controllers like this one in particular, she does NOT take 'ownership' of her airspace, she does not know her jobsite's current outages (not knowing your localizer beacon is out???), and AT NO TIME does she take control to ensure she can guide, direct and ensure his safe landing (he says he cannot climb, and needs her to vector him in...in 'layperson terms' the pilot is saying 'I know I can't get high enough to avoid vertical obstacles, so can you route me around them, as in a slalom course, to keep me from hitting anything?')...because she is too wrapped up in 'protecting her liabilities' before she is, in getting people to the ground safely.
As a pilot, you are very much like an 'automobile' or 'bus' driver...you operate the vehicle. ATC is like a policeman directing traffic. Once you declare an emergency, it IS THEIR ASSIGNED JOB to take you as the priority, in getting you where you need to go (to protect your passengers and cargo). There is no other way to 'view this'...if you don't like the job, there is always McDonalds...
Many years ago, I was approaching Glendale airport in AZ. I was flying an ultralight, (top speed 60 MPH,,, in a dive). After reporting at 10 miles out, I was told that I had 3 "heavies" (anything bigger that an ultralight) behind me. They request, I granted that they pass. At 3 miles out I had a Cessna 175 behind me and would arrive approximately at the same time. ATC asked and requested that I land on the taxi way. I did. (BTW. within the 10 miles and landing, I was asked several times, my speed and what was taking so long. At 4 miles, after being asked again, I reported that "I was peddling as fast as I could"!! When ATC acknowledged, I could hear a lot of laughter in the background). FYI I was a Cessna pilot before I flew ultralights.
On the taxiway, that’s golden😂
As a pilot that was VERY hard to listen to. I don’t know how long I could stay professional in an emergency with a controller like that. Absolutely did not care one bit.
She handled the situation like a "pan-pan" when she should have handled it like the "mayday" it was. "We have lost a door" should definitely be a mayday, no matter the plane.
In most other videos I've seen, the ATC informs on the weather conditions in both pan-pan and mayday without being asked for it (as it should be), and not trying to add to the workload of the pilot(s). I feel that the ATC in the clip could have been used to Cessnas and similar small planes, where a loose door might not be that big of a problem, and weren't used to larger planes.
Anyway, I hope she learned from the experience, because apart from the obvious problems, she spoke clearly and had awareness.
@@geiroveeilertsen7112 It's true! I suppose I never looked at it that way. A Skyhawk with an open door is no big deal, a citation with an open door is a huge deal, hahaha. This is why I'm a big proponent of telling people to be VERY simple with what they say to ATC.
This pilot kept saying "We" which is something we all do as well, but he was very likely single pilot. I understand her not wanting to take on the liability, but it's very hard to listen to.
Kelsey did another video recently about an aircraft going into inadvertent IMC and he was spinning and rolling and screaming help god i'm gonna crash on the radio, and the controller gave him advice on control inputs. May well have saved his life but absolutely exposed him to liability im sure. I know which I'd rather have on my side, and most controllers are the latter.
I feel sorry for her husband while he's driving her to go shopping....
@@hmdoc16 Me, or her? xD
@@Flying_fisher If memory serves me correctly, in that video it was not the controller who advised on the control inputs necessary to stabilize the aircraft, but a pilot in another aircraft on the same frequency.
There's this map called an Emergency Obstruction Vectoring Map that controllers can bring up showing the altitudes of all obstructions, to be used for vectoring in an emergency. Controllers should know all outages on their airports. Controllers shouldn't send emergency aircraft to other frequencies to get the weather when they can read it to them. Controllers are sitting safe on the ground. If they can't remember that, if they freeze or get stupid when a plane has an emergency, they need to find a new job.
EXCELLENT vid. I've never been a 747 pilot, but I HAVE been an Air Traffic Controller (1974 to 2008), and I have handled emergencies (many), and I just wanted to tell you that you were absolutely CORRECT about that controller working the EMER biz jet. I cringed listening to her! If she'd have demonstrated that attitude as a trainee of mine, I would have done all I could to get her OUT of the profession. Unfortunately, persons with such attitudes rarely "reveal" themselves until after check-out.
Affirmative action hire, no doubt
@@pjhaebe hahah 🤣
Curious observer ie: neither Pilot nor ATC. How many times does a Pilot have to ask for vectors before getting them? This pilot said (in as many words) "I'm going to need vectors" but he seems to have been totally ignored. What the heck?
OMG, it is cringe. She was a robot, I wonder if she will make it to retirement like you.
@@brandonogden5735 She has a better chance than anyone taking her direction.
ATC:' You also got Newar Airport in your two o'clock in about seven miles.'
Kelsey: I'Id never want to be in that situation'
Newark Airport: *:'(*
Newark Airport:
"Anything free at LaGuardia?"
poor newark 😔💔
Oh, man! That was funny... :)
Newark.too far. Teterboro is closest
"OH MY GOD!! My hair is on fire and my copilot is dead!" "Sounds insane mate, can you not fly into a mountain?"
InForMatiOn LIMAAAAA!!!!!
ATC: "My man, that's crazy, but I don't remember asking."
I laughed hard at this lol
Lima Oscar Lima
Another thing I like about that Sully ATC recording is the attitude of the involved controllers. First the departure controller, but also the tower controllers. "We got an emergency right now." " OK get him in." no questions asked no hesitation just getting it done.
People should write and ask the ATC in NYC be recognized. On here is the first place I‘ve read anything from the public.
My boss is a retired regional ATC. He said that once, he got a call from a small private plane who declared an emergency, needing to land immediately. As luck would have it they were near a small uncontrolled rural airfield. My boss grew up in this same area and was able to sucessfully direct them to the airfield using landmarks, at night. I was impressed.
I could never be an air traffic controller. Like I always say, if I mess up at my job, at least no one dies. Their hamburger will just be messed up. :/
@@digby_dooright uncooked patty can be quite dangerous you know
Using the PB&J utensil on the wong patty or bun could prove fatal@@digby_dooright
"I understand he's loading her up with a ton of information that she's not used to...I get it - but he's also not used to having a DOOR FLY OFF his plane either! Give him some slack" I lol'd at this amazing statement!
He has lives on the line while she’s sitting on a safe chair. Her behavior was inexcusable. Horrible. She should’ve been fired immediately but that probably didn’t happen. I’m upset this happened.
Yeah, the 2nd one is pretty nuts. He's got stuff flying around the cockpit trying to get out of the clouds and avoid terrain and she's bugging him about the ATIS.
I would have told her straight up to piss off she was useless
I would've told her to stop talking and press Direct - Enter :)
Unfortunately, ATC goes into work every day with the understanding that when an emergency is called, it doesn't matter how great you do and how successfully you get an aircraft on the ground, that entire scenario will be scrutinized in excruciating detail. That's why she gives the altimeter several times - he probably had the altimeter recorded and set from both clearance and departure, but if she doesn't give it to him as well, she will get dinged for it even though it has no relevance to the situation at hand. Additionally, direct to Kelsey's point, if she can get him to confirm that he has ATIS, she can avoid taking up valuable airtime and his attention by reading it over the air. I think it was good of her to ask for him to confirm ATIS because she could avoid a long transmission when he might need the air for an additional call.
@@caseytaylor1487 You make some good points. But is the system working if her needing to cover her butt from procedural scuitny? I'm not saying yes or no. Both flying and ATC needs to be regulated, but too much becomes a burden, I suppose is my point.
@@davebartosh5 I definitely think there's room for improvement within the FAA/ATC management structure. For instance, I think it's ridiculous that a controller can get dinged for not giving an altimeter when the situation was otherwise an amazing save and the altimeter had no impact on the situation. Controllers joke about the way to respond on the air to an emergency call is to say, "Roger emergency, the altimeter is xxxx." This seems like a ridiculous thing to say, and generally is, but then you've checked that box and nobody can say that you didn't do it later on when you were inundated with handling the emergency.
On the other hand, it is important to have certain procedures and safeguards for every operation, including emergencies. I think it's easy to argue that the FAA might be a little more stringent than is necessary, but they are also learning from their own past failures and many of these procedures are in place because somebody else didn't do it and airplanes crashed and people died because of the miss. When I was in ATC school, we were often taught not only the procedure, but the failure that caused it to be in the rule book. While the calls might be annoying to a pilot dealing with an emergency, there's probably a very good reason why that procedure is being utilized (even if it may not be relevant in that particular case).
Additionally, while it's annoying that she keeps asking if he can maintain his own terrain and obstruction clearance, if he can take on that responsibility, that opens up lots of options for her. Thankfully, this all worked out in the end, but if she vectored them into a radio tower and killed everybody, that would be terrible for everybody involved.
The words "Radar contact is lost" always give me chills
I cant just belive how profesional he still sounds
I guess.
I live in a mountainous and remote part of the world and I hear it three or four times a day.
So does the Hudson at that time of year! Lucky those ferries got there quick.
Doesn't that typically mean you're at less than 200 feet?
I been there .. and it worries you flying down to crash.. as the atc controller said.. radar contact lost .. and you will not be able to hear me soon ..keep talking., you may not hear me but i will hear you. Tell me what you experienced.. the radio is yours.
So i did .. 4 hours later the ATC controller Joe ...and me handshaked and hugged.
Him crying being happy to see me..
ATC (Patrick) should have been recognized at least equally as Sully. That dude was on top of everything. On a 1 to 10 scale, this ATC gets a 27. As good as the landing! Awesome Patrick!!
Yes, that’s all over this post.
You should write and request he be recognized if he hasn’t yet. Things happen when things are out in writing. Perhaps you could write what you posted here and send it to them? I’ll bet you’d get a response and he might be recognized if they agree. That would be great. My experience has been things happen if you put your thoughts in writing and mail them to the appropriate parties. I’ll bet the Airport could direct you who to contact avd their address as well. Thanks. 🙏✈
You would’ve thought Sully was getting a foot rub during those comms….cool as a cucumber. What a pro and so thankful his skills paid off.
Have you herd the southwest one where the engine exploded up around or at cruise? They had a passenger sucked half way out a window and killed. It’s a female pilot and she makes sully look like he is panicked. Can’t remember the flight number but it was NY to Houston if I remember correctly. Think they land at philly if I’m not mistaken
@@derekrohan9619 I did hear about that one. Very unfortunate. The other two notable ones for me where the pilot maintained composure was 1. The decompression NW flight out of Detroit about 30 years ago. The crew on that flight handled it well. 2. The flight out of Miami to Atlanta (I think) that caught on fire after take off . The pilot was calm as can be. Unfortunately they did not make it. Rest their souls.
Without wanting to do a disservice to pilots that aren’t, I’m guess being military trained helped him be as calm as he was, military pilots seem to just take everything in their stride. There was a British Chinook pilot flying a casualty extraction mission in Afghanistan who took shrapnel to the head and then flew his damaged helicopter back to the base who sounds like he is getting a foot rub when he informs the crew he has been shot. Different stuff.
@@Jabber-ig3iw totally agree, military experience isnt the only thing that can help someone maintain composure but it surely is the most effective, those pilots do everything a normal pilot does but while being shot at
@@derekrohan9619 I think she was a fighter pilot trainer and grew up on bases in a flight family if I remember correctly. I think her dad and husband were both also pilots and her husband gave a cool sound bite at one point basically saying she was a phenomenal pilot!
I always forget about how good the ATC controller was during Sully's incident! I guess I just hadn't heard it in a long time but the response he got information was incredible absolutely incredible! I mean their dialogue was just INCREDIBLE to hear!
The guy managed to get through two airport for Sully alone lol that guy work fast
We’re gonna be in the Hudson has to be one of the most iconic lines in aviation
"Unable." has to be one of the most iconic memes in aviation.
And he sounded cool as a cucumber, like it was just another day.
"Hudson, we have a problem"
@ AngryDINGUS
You find that most people are cool when facing an emergency.
All that screaming and yelling is Hollywood.
@@angrydingus5256 Well, part of that generation where men were pants, women wore pants, and even the dog smoked in the morning before he wore pants.
Controller here, that second aircraft is the result of a stiff controller who strictly follows rules. Nothing is wrong most of the time, but during grey areas it can be stressful. Vectoring an AC below an MVA is pretty much always a ratings list scenario. Nothing in the .65 (our rule book) says it’s ok for emergencies although it is common practice if they need it they need it. We really need a different rule book for emergency situations like this to be efficient. The only time I ever lost my ratings was clearing an emergency AC at 3000 feet for a visual approach that he requested during IFR weather. I informed the pilot the weather was IFR and instrument approaches were available if needed. Pilot said unable request visual airport in sight. I said cleared visual approach. Pilot landed fine. I got pulled out. Was told I should have said roger and let the pilot do it on his own. I still disagree as the last thing I imagine pilots want is to be told unable approach clearance or anything that sounds remotely like that 3 miles from an airport. However, .65 doesn’t make exceptions and my facility disagreed with me.
I agree that you do what you have to do to save lives but in some professions all they look at is numbers.
Two Remarks from an European pilot, who is no English native speaker:
1. For me, flying to the US always took a lot of concentration, because controllers and pilots communicated in their native language and did not give a damn about phraseology (same with any folks, speaking their native language on radio (French, Spanish, Chinese, Russian)). That's fair enough, but during emergencies it really undermines one asset, that any pilot/controller could use: structure. If I have an emergency, I give a Mayday-call and everyone on the frequency is instantly informed and knows, what to do.
Also thank you for explaining the importance of "aviate navigate communicate" (which is also a great tool to get structure into a possibly overwhelming situation). For pilots, I would like to advertise TPAA or PPAA to deal with any demanding situation (it sure helped me a few times).
2. I talked a lot with our controllers over here and they told me, that they do not have the same legal "get free of jail card" as pilots do, meaning that they are not allowed to use any means they think necessary to handle a flight safely. We pilots (or at least I hope most of us) do have that paragraph in our operating manual, that we can do anything to safely conduct a flight, if it is necessary.
Controllers don't have that, so if they are vectoring a plane below their minimum vectoring altitude, they may face a lawsuit. Perhaps this is different in the US (I would hope so).
Also always remember, that we are all humans, prone to make mistakes (and sometimes to be really unhappy about something ;-) ).
Thanks for the great video!
Great Information. 🙏🏻
Amazing, you're telling me the people trying to wrangle the literal flying circus doesn't have the legal authority to actually save lives in an emergency situation, you just single handedly turned me off of being remotely interested in being an ATC, "Sorry buddy, I know you got serious issues but the company I work for is going to sue me or throw me in jail for dereliction of duty if I treat your emergency as an emergency! I can get the fire truck ready to put out your burning corpses or get the search and rescue ready to scrape you off into a jar for your family though!" That's straight up pathetic.
In India, terrain clearance is not on the controller. Just letting the flight crew know they're below the minimum sector altitude and need to maintain visual reference is enough, especially in an emergency.
It changed years ago. NATCA was against it.
all that is true BUT we've seen multiple occasions when the issue that citation pilot had has been fatal or near fatal just tell him he needs to be aware of his altitude and get on with getting him the assistance he needs... cause if he crashes cause shes too busy covering her own ass to help him after he declared an emergency she still aint gonna have a job either way and will still probably end up with a lawsuit either way... its a double edges sword.... and one she couldve handle way differently than she did. if i was ATC id rather lose my job making sure someone survived than to live with someone needlessly dying or being injured because i cared more about a job than thier life.
ATC: Which runway do you need?
Sully: The Hudson
Harrison Ford: "Runways? Where we're going, we don't need runways".
The Bonesaw .. but… that was Christopher Lloyd :(
@@arashjadidiproductions now Harrison Ford as well, after he landed on a taxiway 😂
@@duzehalo My bad. I wasn't aware of that story when I made my comment. 🤦♂️
I used to work on the ATC equipment in the tower. The scariest feeling for a maintenance person is when an emergency is declared and you hope all of your equipment is working properly.
The idea that liability could even matter in life or death situation just boggles my mind. I remember learning in a first responder class that one of the top reasons people chose not to do CPR is fear of being sued/ liability, I was dumbfounded.
Yup. People say “oh you’re protected by the Good Samaritan laws” yeah but that doesn’t stop them from draining my bank with a long drawn out court case. Ideally it would be dropped before it started but it’s not a risk I’m willing to accept
@@Brevorbolo Innocent human life will always matter more to me than my bank account, but I understand not everyone feels that way.
Also you are under no obligation to perform CPR just because you are trained, it is your choice. Having said that I did perform when required. Survival rate is extremely low after cardiac arrest, as my instructor always said you can't get any more dead than dead so don't worry about it just do it.
Well, because if you're doing it right, you ARE going to cause significant injury. So while I've had training as a first responder, in reality, I have zero confidence in being able to correctly identify whether someone just passed out or is actually suffering from cardiac arrest. What if they just got dizzy because they skipped breakfast and lost consciousness and I messed up and couldn't find their pulse or something? I don't wanna break their ribs over a minor issue! And if I lived in the US, I absolutely would also be terrified about getting sued for causing unnecessary harm.
That's not something I have to worry about where I live, but I'd still hesitate until it's too late out of fear to have "misidentified" the issue.
@@sleepysera We do have the good samaritan law. Plus I imagine most people would pick broken ribs over death. If someone was just unconscious, they would still be breathing.
One thing you never want to hear from ATC is "what are you doin' now, man?" That made me laugh out loud.
That’s also a question I hated to hear my instructor ask when I was a Student Naval Aviator.
It's a one - up on your driving instructor's "So, what did we do wrong there?"
"That man made me lol"
I read that in a biden voice man
Her question is cringeworthy. Just hope she found employment in another field. No ones life in her hands.
During my training, one of my instructors told me, "The controller is there to help you and they usually will, but remember that at the end of your flight, they're going to go home - you have to be responsible for aviating and navigating. If the controller aims you towards a mountain and gets too busy to tell you to turn in time (think KFLG in a Cessna 172 on a busy weekend), it's up to you to say, 'Hey, there's a mountain in front of me, should I turn now?' before you turn into a geological artifact."
Oh so it’s always up to the pilot huh? How about when there is severe fog or a low ceiling? In that case it would be up to ATC, Especially when you are in the middle of an emergency!
@@NeverEnoughPyro40 Your reply is ridiculous.
@@NeverEnoughPyro40 Three words: "Situational Awareness." No it's not always easy and I haven't flown commercially or even turbines/jets, but I was expected to know where I was and what was next. In the end, yes, it's always the pilot. The pilot is the one in control of the airplane. You can do what ATC says or not do what they say, if you cannot or should not. You might have to fill out some paperwork afterwards but it's a lot easier to do if you're alive.
@@NeverEnoughPyro40 at no time is the ATC in command of the aircraft.
You should learn how to read a sectional
Tower: You landed on a taxiway. Advise when ready to copy phone number.
Harrison Ford: No need to give me the phone number, I already have it.
Speed dial, my friends.
@@hireahitCA LOL.. so wrong, funny, but wrong lol
@@Shannonbarnesdr1 A good pilot is always prepared.
@@hireahitCA true true, and while I know no one is perfect, we all make mistakes and we are always learning, I do sincerely hope I never do anything as crazy as landing on a taxi way or such
Oof
I am a retired controller with 32 years and am currently a corporate pilot flying a Citation Sovereign. I agree with you 100% that the controller did a poor job of helping out the Citation pilot, although I don’t think I would necessarily blame her. During the last decade of my FAA career I saw the training requirements for controllers go rapidly and severely down hill. There used to be a pretty tough screening process to become a controller and the wash out rate was high. But the FAA in their infinite wisdom went to a “Train to Succeed” program. Their new philosophy was that given enough training anyone can be a controller. I thoroughly disagree. The screening process I went through was pass/fail and they were looking for those people that had the correct aptitude. Some people just don’t have what it takes. I’m not saying there’s any shame in that because as a kid I took several years of piano lessons. I just didn’t get it. To this day I couldn’t play you a song if my life depended on it! Unfortunately I think society in general is going that way. Everybody gets a participation letter and nobody is allowed to fail.
AMEN!
Totally agree. The idea that _"anyone can be trained to be an X"_ is fundamentally wrong, no matter what _X_ is.
In my former working place, we once had a COO who seemed to believe that the whole production was a grey mass of people who could all be trained to do the same tasks. In real life it doesn't work out that way, mainly because people are different. I would be a useless ATC.
_Edit: Wrong three-letter acronym._
The reference to participation trophys (letter) and how this mindset plays on real jobs is something I've never thought of - that was actually quite brilliant.
I’ve been an RN for 32 years. It’s the same in medicine. Scary to see the poor quality of nurses that are currently graduating
Do you think the new hiring had anything to do with DEI? THANKS
I don't know why TH-cam decided I wanted to watch this channel but I'm really enjoying having my world expand with knowledge about what goes on between pilots and control towers
Here in UK there was an interesting exchange between the passenger of a single engine light aircraft returning back home after a day out with his friend, the pilot and aircraft owner. Part way through the flight the pilot suffered a massive heart attack and died. John Wildey, the passenger got control of the plane but had zero flying experience. Eventually he managed to make a Mayday call on the radio and they began talking him through the process of approaching the airfield and then hopefully, landing. It took four attempts as each time he was coming in too fast so was told by ATC "not to worry and just go around again". John replied back, "it's alright for you mate, you're on the ground and i'm still up here in this bloody thing"!! After he successfully landed he told the ATC crew he knew he had to get the plane down because his daughter had invited him out for a meal that evening! 😂
Of course , the meal shouldn’t get cold, did he go back to his friend afterwards?
That guy is Superman 😮 Such a courageous man who just wanted to get home to his daughter
The inflight movie was Arthur 2 On the Rocks he did not want to land cuz it's a great movie and not available on blu ray
"Unable" oh man that just gives me chills every time.
Why?
@@TampaJW because if you are unable to land you are going to ditch in the Hudson.
Same here, once he called unable, I knew there is only one way to go is down, great job not trying to make it by going over the city.
For me, it's just how calmly Sully said that line despite the situation. It's just amazing to me that someone could be facing an easily fatal situation and still maintain that level of composure during situations trying to figure out any safe way to land.
@@joewileman4480 I think you are SO busy trying to figure out what you can do, and trying EVERYTHING, that in a way your fear kind of takes a back seat.
Kelsey is a true value producer. He is picking things out of the trash and turning them into entertaining, instructive, thougth provoking, relatable and potentially life saving lessons.
ATC: what do you need to land?
Sully: Engines!
He had a few. But they were off duty. ;)
...or tarmac.
@@MrMeadfoot even worse media "aviation experts"
@@MrMeadfoot wait, why would he need tarmac?
Wow I never realized I've never heard the actual real life conversation between ATC, Tower, Cactus and Teterboro until now. What an amazing job all of those guys did in that situation. Straight to point and rapid firing possible solutions at Cactus.
This pilot saved a lot of lives that day.
True balls of steel this guy has.
Yes he did!
Just like to say "thank you" to all pilots, ground crew, controllers, attendants, everyone who dedicates their lives to flying us jerks around the world. I don't know how you do it, but I'm sure thankful that you do.
Agreed
Now lick our boots.
Amen 👍🏽
It’s our pleasure!
As you mentioned, when I first heard that tape of the communication between Sully and the tower, I was SO impressed at how quickly that guy in the tower was operating. Granted he wasn’t fully absorbing the gravity of the situation consciously, but when the airwaves resonated an emergency, he hit the gas making arrangements. Very cool. 😎
Retired ATC here, 2007. (Center, Approach, Tower). When I first heard the tape of the "Miracle on the Hudson", I cried, mostly in reaction to the pride I felt for the job the controller displayed. Proud now to see his professional actions are getting recognition.
I saw Captain Sullivan "land" his plane on the Hudson River that day ( NY side). Still can't fathom how smoothly, and ( I guess) gracefully his Hudson "runway" landing was. Skill, a team of professionals, and angels seemed to be the amazing formula!
A few years back, I attended a leadership conference at Disney (FL) featuring Sully as a keynote speaker. Hearing him talk through the ‘208 seconds’, in person, was something I’ll never forget ….
You sir are blessed!
We met him once. An unforgettable man. So humble.
Agree 100% about the weather information. Asking a pilot in the middle of an emergency if he has the latest ATIS information means he has to find the frequency, dial it in, and likely listen to it for more than one full running (as it's rare to dial it in at the beginning of the message). When it's hitting the fan, this simply isn't going to happen.
I'm currently studying to be an ATC and this was very helpful
Yeah, CYA and when your supervisor chews your ass for it, complain to HR about mobbing. Dead pilots tell no stories, and one emegency can bring you to the top in the pecking order. The top management of the airport can recognize a talent for keeping the airport out of legal trouble, and if planes crash - let them crash somewhere where they will be someone else's problem.
Please be useful, think of the people on the plane
Yeah...perfect example of what not to do with that incompetent female controller. In Sullys case...the controller shows you how you want to handle an emergency!
@@kayakaziloqo7297 you're obviously not a controller. you mean well, but stay out of it.
in '94 there was a near mid-air in my airspace 100% not my doing, but one of the pilots checked on to my freq seconds before. I requested the tape and played it back over and over figuring out what I would have done differently. I created policies for myself that served me for the next 20 years. here's another tape of what not to do.
I sure enjoy your videos, Thank You, Sir. My most embarrassing flying event was getting lost at a giant complex airport. After several calls to Ground, a military AWACS told me to follow the grey four-engine plane with a flying saucer on top. They were going to the same runway and understood the complex taxiways. All was good but my passenger lost a lot of respect for my flying abilities.
funny and honest :)
Don't forget that if you get lost or befuddled you can always ask for a "Progressive Taxi". You may not make friends with the GND, but they will at least know you aren't going to bust any runway crossings or tangle up the conga line.
Better to lose a little respect rather than be in the way of a bigger plane. 😂
You have my respect Sir, for continuing to ask questions until you got an answer that made sense to you. The "dumb" question is the one you don't ask which then lands you in deep doo-doo.
The professionalism of both pilot and ATC in the Hudson River situation is awesome!!!!
I'm in charge of testing and evaluation at my ATC facility and I always get questioned about things like "why are we required to know the localizer frequency for tests?" 99.9% of the time you don't, but on that rare occasion like this, it could significantly improve the outcome of a situation and the level of service you are providing.
One thing to note, controllers handle emergency aircraft almost routinely. Over 90% I'd say are low risk, standard scenarios. So sometimes it's hard for a controller to deviate from habitual control practices to meet an elevated level of service required, even though they might understand that this is a more critical situation. I think this can all be mitigated by a more in depth focus of CRM (crew resource management).
There's a specific part of CRM called the decision making process. It's defined as a continuous loop of identifying problems and working to a solution while weighing all the information you have available to make the best decision for a given scenario. For us that can be learning a little more about what pilots have to deal with, some of their requirements, aircraft characteristics, etc. A pilot comes on the frequency in a panic talking about not being able to climb because a door fell off the plane probably doesn't warrant 4 transmissions asking to maintain terrain and obstruction clearance. Obviously the situation has deteriorated to the point that CYA and normal control practices are out the window.
I agree with everything the pilot had to critique in that scenario.
Sully's controller was pretty snappy getting things done and giving options. It let Sully know what he couldn't do. Very valuable.
That second scenario Kelsey, yeah I’m with you all the way on your assessment. I never want to be in an emergency talking to a controller who thinks that’s an acceptable way to behave!
Maybe you could do an interview with someone from ATC, similarly you did with Stella, the filght attendat.
If he could find one that’s not working or asleep. From what I hear they’re either doing one or the other lol
@@commiecomrade2644 you missed drinking.
It might be hard to snag a current ATC for an interview because they're government employees. Lots of regs and have to go through FAA public affairs, etc. But I'm sure there are plenty of retired or former military ATCs who would be cool with an interview.
Kennedy Steve!!
310 pilots wife Jamie.
I retired after 32 yrs and 25,000 + hrs. but lost my medical. My son and I really enjoy watching your channel. Very entertaining and fun to watch.
I appreciate you trying to give the point of view of ATC and Pilots. I am neither, so I learn a lot from these videos.
I appreciate you being on the channel for so long!
"If one of the engines fell off my plane, that'd be a Pan-Pan, or maybe not even that." I remember a B-52 pilot talking about the same circumstance, he said "We probably wouldn't even notice if one fell off."
"Ahhh, the dreaded 7 engine approach" goes the punchline of a joke.
@@lrodpeterson3046 I got good news and bad news, bad news we lost 4 engines, good news we're flying a BUFF.
I’d call Mayday even if it was a Do-X.
Mayday is too much paperwork. "We're going to be in the Hudson, this is just information"
If you should have called a Mayday and didn’t you should be made to account for your actions. Mayday and Pan Pan give unambiguous information. Is American Air Law not clear about this?
Hey Kelsey. Could we have a video of you describing the emergency scenarios you've faced in your career?
If he did that... it might therefore identify which company he works for by googling the incident.
@@bootleg0012 Ahhhhhhhhhh I Seeeeeeeeeeee
And Atlas Air pilots fly the 747 dreamlifter...
Captian Commando. And hotels without breakfast.
If he doesn’t want us to know he must have his reasons. Maybe if you’ve figured it out, keep it a sssshhhh...secret;)
I am binge watching, which explains this comment a whole year late, but I just gotta say, I love how Kelsey says honestly he has never been an ATC so he does more critical thinking about the pilot's actions and responses. I respect that acknowledgement a lot! And ADORE this channel!!
Kelsey is amazing!
"Errr Uniform Papa, your emergency's a bit inconvenient right now. Could you take your bloody door and divert somewhere else! Take the hint I couldn't be less interested!" 🤣🤣 Lets just hope she couldn't hear him properly so didn't realize the urgency!
she was a complete IDIOT as you see in the later part
Like Oakland or San Jose..
Obvious to me she didn't want to be bothered. This makes me sad.
I bet she was an affirmative action hire.
Id be getting her to copy down a number lol
I came across this rule "aviate, navigate, communicate" in one of your videos. I'm not a pilot but, I tend to apply it to almost everything.
Good advice, but I'm not sure how well that works on a phone call.
@@MikeF1189 "Think before you speak" is always good advice.
@@MikeF1189 for example, I do what I'm doing, I know what I need to do once I complete it , I see what else I need to do and finally I talk to whoever is on call.
I apply it to phone calls iff what I'm doing is very important. If not I don't need to as I am on the ground and can resume my work after the phone call.
@@Eternal_Tech this advice is very much needed for the ATC controller who was communicating with the airplane with the busted door.
Can work if you’re driving and something goes wrong. Drive the car, figure out where you need to go, and if needed communicate your plans. I think some people get in a bad situation and end up freaking out and getting their priorities mixed up.
I've never listened to the radio of the Hudson miracle before. It's amazing how calm everyone was! Makes me trust the folks I'll fly with in the future even more ❤️
Once on a trip across country, I could hear the pilot talking to the ATC. I was then that I understood how the ATC would shepherd the plane point to point. I was especially impressed by the professionalism of the ATC and pilots. It was a good flight.
509 UP: I’m not a pilot but I live in the Bay Area and am familiar with SFO. SFO Localiser not working on Runway 10 is probably normal. 99% of landings are on Runway 28 from over the Bay. I have never seen an approach to SFO Runway 10 and probably only happens in emergencies. ATC should have known this immediately.
Legal liabilities prevents ATC from communicating clearly.
That's bad, like existential bad.
I honestly can't wait for the pilot to become obsolete.
Couple decades ago now, Burt Rutan wanted to train his test pilots before Spaceship One was ready. His solution was to install a copy of X-Plane on the White Knight carrier aircraft, and told it to retard the performance to simulate Spaceship One in glide mode.
He turned one plane into another plane with a video game, on hardware worse than what a smartwatch has today.
What the heck is the hang up? A.I. scientists used to talk about how it was thousands of times harder to make a self-driving car than a self flying plane. This really should be a solved problem.
Imagine commuting in an E-VTOL, for a small extra charge you can play any game that would benefit from a simulator seat. The computer would keep you going in the same general direction the same way of blizzard gets you to walk in circles, you just insert a little bias here and there the user will never notice.
Then everyone can be a "pilot", for the equivalent of an Uber ride.
Sim games could rent entire fleets for tournaments, buzzing around like mosquitoes.
Audiences could use their own VR rigs to plug right into their favorite competitors, or even check out IRL "robot dance" that makes the whole thing possible.
Those are the reasons I'm investing in anything that looks like it might even remotely disrupt the sector.
One thing that bothers me here, would that be 10L or 10R? I was thinking landing the 10s at SFO was odd, but they didn't give left or right
GLS would be much better selection IMHO.
@@jtjames79 I'm a private pilot working on my commercial. My flight school uses X plane to start our training and I use it at home to practice. If you knew how often X plane crashes you would understand the hold up.
Computer systems are still too prone to crashing and errors to be safe enough to be responsible for hundreds of lives. And sure, when things are working as they are supposed to there is software that could fly a plane and land it safely but in an emergency when things are not behaving as they should, or one or more systems has failed, then the auto pilot could use the "correct" inputs but make things worse.
Computers still can't do an adequate job at reacting to the unexpected when compared to a human pilot; that is why all of the current automation in the cockpit is to help the pilot, not replace them.
@@joshmagnum7312 horse shit.
X-Plane is decades old, I only used it as an example. Nice straw man though.
Meanwhile SpaceX is fully autonomous, and Tesla is just months away.
Just because you have tried nothing and are out of ideas doesn't make you right.
Good tip on saying "blocked". I've been stepped on and didn't know what to do. I repeated myself, but so did the guy who stepped on me. This kept happening until the controller addressed him by call sign and told him to stand by.
as a controller i usually listen for part of a callsign or type aircraft to use for clarification. I'll say "aircraft ending in BC or C172 calling say again, other aircraft standby."
I was flying out of CLT in a Piper Archer and this kept happening. Kinda got worried that I was clogging up all the jet traffic behind me by missing some critical ATC vectoring.
There should be like an indicator sound or light if both the out and in were being used @ same time. And a way to get either or repeated without having to ask. Quickly
@@mustangnawt1 There is. It's the speaker in the headset. If you hear somebody else's voice (mine, in my case), it means somebody else is transmitting. That sounds smartass, but sometimes it really comes down to a lack of awareness and a choice not to be bound by the rules of conversation. Show me a guy who interrupts on the ATC frequency, and I'll show you a guy who interrupts in face-to-face conversation.
Man listening to the communication between atc and sulley gave me chills.
Ice water in that man's veins
It was a pretty smooth landing honestly.
“Unable”
Same gosh even in the bathroom it still gets me
He lives next door to my cousin. He is a good man.
Your first scenario raises a point which is valid for many occupations. These days there are generally two ways to approach any task - the ethical/right way, and the regulation/mandated way. They are often very different. During 45 years practicing medicine I often came up against the paradox of being mandated by a regulatory agency to do things one way, while the best thing for the patient was to do it another way. I always took the course that helped the patient most. If you are consistent in your insistence on doing the right thing, you will acquire a reputation that protects you from capricious criticism or discipline by the Small Minds.
Just so Sir.
Maybe. Even 'probably'. However, it remains a risk.
Man, the Sully radio call ALWAYS gives me chills.
The NORCAL controller was definitely more interested in following procedures for CYA in the inevitable tape review. I hope this gets talked about in their next facility training review.
San Diego approach is that incompetent, at least they were in the early 2000s.
@@raymarshall6721 You mean that place where the avionics are calling out 'Minimums' crossing over Balboa Navy Hospital on the approach to 27? The person/group that decided KSAN should be an international is even more incompetent.
Call it CYA if you want, but how would you feel if you vectored a plane into a mountain?
@@davidkittle7581 better question is how would you feel if 509UP flew into a mountain because you didn’t vector it to the bay????
@@donrasmussen3039 I've seen the ground track. He was over the ocean and needed to be vectored back over the hills to SFO.
I remember my flight examiner saying to atc, Are we here for you? Or are you here for us? Very blunt but very true!
Some controllers need to be reminded of that every now and then.
I got chills listening to the first two minutes of this. What a pilot, what an ATC!
The lightning fast communication between pilot and ATC in the Sully scenario is incredible. I can just imagine a scan of their brains being lit right up during this incident. "You only use 10 per cent of your brain"...until you find yourself in this situation. Another great video Kelsey, Cheers.
The calm, cool, and professionalism of the ATC operator guiding sully is amazing.
I watched a talk that Captain Sully did a few years back where he talked about why he was not able to give the ATC a ton of information in the moments leading up to the "crash". He talked about the theory of multi tasking, When we multi task we take 2 or three things we can normally do extremely well, and end up doing them poorly all at once and are prone to mistakes. It was his primary concern to fly the plane and get it to a safe place to land. ATC kept giving him runway numbers over and over. He did criticize himself for "sacrificing 3 or 4 valuable seconds" to think of the three words to tell his flight crew "BRACE FOR IMPACT" which at this moment was only 3.5 min after takoff and nobody knew they were going down in back. This no doubt saved some lives,
Kelsey 74 gear, that I've seen for years you are hands down the number one TH-cam intelligent program to watch. Your clarity sets the bar across the board for TH-cam and what it should be for. Thank you for your outstanding efforts !!
Forget chills. The Hudson landing audio chokes me to tears. Every time I hear it. Knowing the ending, it’s like watching any emotional sports play or wartime battle heroics. The fact that he saved it makes it MORE emotional than if he’d lost it. I think... thanks for your content as always. 😊👍👍
Me too, knowing how many souls could have been lost and that the total lost was zero chokes me every time
Man I wasn't planning to but I spent about 4 hours of my Sunday morning watching your videos with no sign of slowing down. Thanks for making these, Sir.
Wish I could have saved these radio calls but in police dispatch you get some hair raising stuff. At one of the two PDs I worked for there was a strict radio protocol. Signal ninety meant clear the frequency-except for the one emergency going on. Although one day we had two going on at the same time-officer under attack in one and cop rolled up on person having a heart attack on a busy freeway in the other. Signal thirteen was as important as the 90, which was officer under attack, so as soon as the 13 was called by the cop the dispatcher would announce the 90. Then, one night I called a 90 because I knew something was about to go down. Cop working alone, spotted suspicious vehicle and noticed that the four occupants had guns. He started calling in the license plate, then you heard the gun shots. As they began to shoot, he went from police phonetic code to military phonetic code. I realized he had just gone into survival mode. The shift supervisor, also a military vet, went into this mode. At that point I knew that unless the suspects ended up surrendering (they did) that it was going to be a bloodbath out there. In another occasion a serial killer chased and cornered. He was armed with a gun and because of a newly installed video camera this was one of the few situations where dispatch could give real time life saving instruction. The cop approaching the serial killer had taken a left instead of a right and was about to put himself in the field of fire. We corrected that and instructed the officer to just keep him bottled up until other officers could arrive as backup. In situations like that you can't believe how long thirty seconds could be. Anyway, the killer was bottled up, then ERT (SWAT) arrived on site. As soon as the serial killer saw the heavy hardware, he surrendered.
You are right. That controller on the Uniform Papa call was out of her depth and had blinders on. It wasn't just about passing off responsibility for maintaining obstruction clearance; she wasn't giving him what he asked for. Even in Vatsim most controllers know the Localizer frequency....she didn't know. She needs to be retrained.
I'm retired ATC. Reference the handling of N509UP, I am definitely NOT in the camp of defending the controller. He said he can't climb she keeps trying to climb him, he said he was unable to maintain his own terrain and obstacle clearance, once was enough stop asking. Other assorted problems you went over too I.E. weather etc.
My Father was an air traffic controller for 29 years. I love the recordings of them talking.
I usually well up a bit hearing how perfect, yet desperate that interaction was between Patrick H and Captain Sullenberger. Pure miracle, like Taca Flight 110.
Kelsey, this was hard to listen to. I am a retired ATCS from the ARTCC in Cleveland. You are exactly right about the controller. She should be giving him the ATIS information rather than making him turn in and listen to it himself. Also, I knew all the NOTAM's and other pertinent information on all airports in my sector, regardless of size so I could relay that to a pilot without hesitation.
Great videos my friend, keep up the good work.