Dan the Man .. i believe he also has this explained for linear EQ's , way back when i used even my hardware 36 band eq as a feedback-resonator , lotsa fun
Educational videos on how and why are always a thumbs up for me, even though I studied this years ago it's always good to come back and refresh your memory! Just like we're made of atoms, sound is made of sine waves!
great explanation! Linear phase EQs definitely help with some of those issues (but also introduce issues of their own). In the end, it's more about choosing which EQ type works best for the job. I had a phase of only using linear phase EQs because I got so annoyed with the way normal lowcut added level - but now I moved back to using conventional EQs most of the time. However if (for some reason) you want to lowcut your bass or kick, linear phase might be better (but be wary of pre-ringing). But ideally you'd solve the problem in your synth / instrument and not with an EQ. Same goes for thinking to just use a lowcut on your master to supposedly get headroom / get rid of sub-low information - in my opinion this usually causes more trouble than it's worth.
Yes. I mean it's not as bigger deal as it seems I just had to make this video because leaving it unanswered was bugging me. Strangely this phenomena also occurs with linear phase eqs. I didn't include that because I can't actually explain it! More work to do it seems.
@@Bthelick If you mean the level increase, yes it does also occur with linear phase but to a lesser extend. I might be wrong but I thought that naturally any cutoff filter will create a bit of resonance at the cutoff frequency which can increase the level - so if you are cutting close to the fundamental that will also add to an increase in overall level.
I had to go to college for this stuff in the 00s!. The University of TH-cam seems like the better option nowadays! Excellent video sir, very well explained and visualised.
Well I just discovered your channel today, and I can't tell you how happy I am to have found something that dives into such technical detail. You truly have a talent for presenting this so concisely. Thank you so much for these!
Hi Bthelick, I’m a huge fan of your content! Since I started watching and subscribed to your channel, my musical skills have immensely improved. I wanted to ask if you could consider creating Afro Tech music production content in the future, similar to artists like Black Coffee, Rampa, and Adam Port, and &ME like the UK Garage series videos which I really enjoyed and would love to see more content like that. Thank you for your insight, I really appreciate it🙏
@@Bthelick together - East end dubs only one - Jaden Thompson (breakdown) Creator - bok. p looking for love - disclosure / the salute remix make a move - max chapman so generally pitch shifting, lpf, etc. however whenever I try this I don't have anywhere near the vocal clarity they do, and or it sounds too distorted (if I'm using something like VocalSynth 2 or LittleAlterBoy) I find it kinda hard to make vocals sound "natural" as well.. hmm.
@@gabrielwood3016 the quality of the original vocal performance is a massive factor in how it 'survives' processing. Both the performance and the recording. If it's annunciated well , with breath and clear transients, in a good booth it will be less and less clear with each process. If it is not a full quality pcm file format either like .wav, then the mp3 encode algorithm is also a factor. Although I'm not sure those refs are great examples. Has Salute every had clear vocals??? haha. As for the Jaden / Chapmen those aren't processed very much at all. a little bit of formant reduction and vintage reverb on the right vocal is all they are using there. also pay attention to the arrangement is there a lot of room in the track for the vocals to do their thing, no pads or mid chords in the wav. just drums, bass and vocals in most vocal sections.
I haven't figured out yet if I like that you provide so much information or if I don't like it because of all the new rabbit holes I find watching your vids. Truly amazing content!
Well, It's 'better' in the sense that it introduces less phase changes but obviously worse at achieving frequency control. It's not something to worry about in general tbh it's just something to be aware of when trouble shooting sound behaviour
Learnt something new today ! What a breakthrough thank you, I allay am wary to just bluntly Lo cut tracks but now I’m empowered by science and reason 😌
Don't get me wrong, I apply high pass filters and EQ all over the place, but this just shows why they increase level. Still make sure to concentrate on the music!
I understand why it happens, I've seen other videos on it in the past, but what I don't get is why it always causes higher peak db, why don't you ever get a reduction, also how on earth do you EQ out unwanted low end from audio without making it cause problems, do we need to use a limiter after anything we low cut?
He doesn't always cause higher levels. It sometimes causes lower levels too. It's all dependent on the luck of the draw regarding how the sounds harmonics line up.
Regarding limiting, I would limit to compensate, especially if the part is essential to groove, limiters sound bad enough out having to react with three extra decibels we can't hear!
Music Technology and Acoustics university throwback, you brought me back 13 years when my professor telling me to pay attention and i was like wtf you talking about i will just make music
Yep this video is more about tying up loose ends. I'm aware of the science but I still eq my tracks all the time and get on with it without a worry. I suppose it's more of a problem solving thing in edge cases.
Great content do you have any recommendations on literature about this topic and other useful scientific information related to these subjects as ive tried to find some information but so many books around. I have the books from bobkats and a few otheres but I dont recall this being covered. Thanks for your help.
I'm not aware of any sorry, in reality It's something we can't practically do much about , just be wary of. i hadn't seen anyone discussing the phase of harmonics well until Dan Worral did his video.
No kids just to be aware of for problem solving. I high pass lots of things all the time ! It was just to answer those that wanted to know from the first video. It's just to have in mind , for example if you the type that uses compressors and you already have one on a track but you decide to add a high pass at the beginning , now you might have in mind that the threshold will probably need readjusting. Things like that.
Yeh alot of people will cut those lows for headroom not knowing it will hit the limiter harder, you can use linear phase but i dont like that kind of filter on the lows, im only halfway through video so hope a suggestion comes ha
Exactly, this phenomena actually occurs still with linear phase eqs believe it or not. But regardless you're right, they effect the low frequencies across the time domain in their own terrible way. Certainly worse for groove.
Yes I've already done a video on how I process bass. th-cam.com/video/suXj2OICbaA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=afXYUFJ6B6HG8xrx I don't advise EQing sub frequencies at all , unless you are aware of a definite imbalance in a sample. If you are using synth sub bass (sine wave is all that is needed usually) then it should already be completely even at all frequencies which is perfect. You don't want certain notes being louder than others! Any differences you hear in that frequency range will usually be the fault of your room/speakers/ears.
Thanks for the great explanation! How can you apply this knowledge of using EQ in practice without using an oscilloscope or FFT analysis. If you could demonstrate this on a track that would be great :)
I did demonstrate it in the other video I mention the start. "how to not master your tracks" it's not really a case of implementing, it's happening all the time already when we EQ, , it's just something to be aware of when trouble shooting scenarios of strange behaviour.
Don't worry about it! The video is just tying up loose ends, The science is good to know when you are troubleshooting scenarios, like "where did all my mastering Headroom go" or "why does this limiter sound terrible all of a sudden". But in day to day operation is not a big deal.
How do you feel about using Izotopes imager for splitting frequencies. I do it all the time to seperate the lows,mids & highs I believe it’s way cleaner than using a standard EQ. Imager uses a “hybrid” mode for splitting frequencies
It's no different really, yes they process in a different way to some others (there are many ways of calculating filters not just one, Butterworth, Linkwitz, Bessel to name a few) there will still be interference around each cross over point. The crossover files in imager are only 'invisible' when all bands are at 0.
Well I would never say it was easy. If you don't know it's happening then everything is fine! It's really not a big deal. This video is more about tying up loose ends, And scientific curiosity. I EQ my tracks all the time without a worry
@@Bthelick ofcourse in the end the're not really problems and more inconveniences but since I'm doing aggressive industrial hardcore kicks it can make a big difference in loudness 😄 so like I said I need to watch this a few times to really understand the concept and how to use it in that regard because I sometimes have those attack problems. Which I never understood and now I at least know where they come from 🧐
Random question but i cant seem to find a answer anywhere, would you know what was used for the bass on 'sandy b - make the world go round' or how to create a similar sound, thanks.. th-cam.com/video/c6j9-gRbrCE/w-d-xo.html
That's the one that camisra sampled isn't it? It's an organ-like patch for sure. I'm not sure where it's from but you can make it with a filtered saw and Ann added sine wave on top pitched +19 (one and a half octaves just like the M1 organ)
@@Bthelick I ended up sampling it, but it had the percussion on still, i layered it with the m1 organ with decapitator on, sounds decent, i'm still learning so would be great to see a tutorial on making the actual sound
Brake screeeeeeech. Hold up. When you say eq achieves it's effect through phase shift, does the same hold true for other filters as well? Like stand alone low / high pass / comb / bandpass, etc?
All filters yes. There are many methods to achieve them of course, like the Butterworth method, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley etc etc but every one I'm aware of uses cancellation / addition of some kind.
I checked that one it's not that. I think it might be an old fabfilter tutorial or another of his commissions I can't find it on his channel. He does exactly the same and reconstructs a wave with stacked sine waves.
The video starts with me saying " this is a follow-up video" to " how to not master your tracks" I show the screenshot and it's also linked in the description.
I stoped the video at 36 seconds... ...as far as can see the issue is frequence masking... As soon we get rid of them, the lever jumps to de ceiling... ...because we are eliminating phase cancelation... Am I wrong, teacher? 😃
I'm afraid not. there can't be frequency masking if it's one sound and the harmonics are all individual frequencies. The song in the video at 00.36 is not an example of the phenomena it's just a random selection from my recent releases.
All credit to Dan Worral for this one. I'm simply recreating his experiment from memory.
Dan the Man .. i believe he also has this explained for linear EQ's , way back when i used even my hardware 36 band eq as a feedback-resonator
, lotsa fun
You really add another depth to how to look at music production.
Making something sound better without making something else sound worse has become the true meaning of mixing/mastering to me
Educational videos on how and why are always a thumbs up for me, even though I studied this years ago it's always good to come back and refresh your memory! Just like we're made of atoms, sound is made of sine waves!
great explanation! Linear phase EQs definitely help with some of those issues (but also introduce issues of their own). In the end, it's more about choosing which EQ type works best for the job. I had a phase of only using linear phase EQs because I got so annoyed with the way normal lowcut added level - but now I moved back to using conventional EQs most of the time. However if (for some reason) you want to lowcut your bass or kick, linear phase might be better (but be wary of pre-ringing). But ideally you'd solve the problem in your synth / instrument and not with an EQ. Same goes for thinking to just use a lowcut on your master to supposedly get headroom / get rid of sub-low information - in my opinion this usually causes more trouble than it's worth.
Yes. I mean it's not as bigger deal as it seems I just had to make this video because leaving it unanswered was bugging me.
Strangely this phenomena also occurs with linear phase eqs. I didn't include that because I can't actually explain it! More work to do it seems.
@@Bthelick A follow up about various phase EQ types and pre-ring would be valuable.
@@Bthelick If you mean the level increase, yes it does also occur with linear phase but to a lesser extend. I might be wrong but I thought that naturally any cutoff filter will create a bit of resonance at the cutoff frequency which can increase the level - so if you are cutting close to the fundamental that will also add to an increase in overall level.
I don't think it's a result of resonance. A linear phase high pass at 6db per octave doesn't resonate as far as I understand.
Loving this Wan Dorrall content ;)
Keep up the great work man!
I had to go to college for this stuff in the 00s!. The University of TH-cam seems like the better option nowadays! Excellent video sir, very well explained and visualised.
Super clear&useful explanation, thanks for the video!
Loving the more technical videos! Great explanation and thank you!
Well I just discovered your channel today, and I can't tell you how happy I am to have found something that dives into such technical detail. You truly have a talent for presenting this so concisely. Thank you so much for these!
This video unintentionally made me further understand something I always struggled to understand, fantastic, insta sub.
Hi Bthelick,
I’m a huge fan of your content! Since I started watching and subscribed to your channel, my musical skills have immensely improved. I wanted to ask if you could consider creating Afro Tech music production content in the future, similar to artists like Black Coffee, Rampa, and Adam Port, and &ME like the UK Garage series videos which I really enjoyed and would love to see more content like that. Thank you for your insight, I really appreciate it🙏
Thankyou!
Did you see my organic house video?
2 years into the future and this channel will teach us how to build a rocket
would love a video on vocal effects, creative processing chains, working with vocal timbre!
Did you see the garage vocal video?
@@Bthelick yeah! I was thinking more of the creative processing. I'll find a few examples and reply here.
@gabrielwood3016 sure no problem 👊
@@Bthelick together - East end dubs
only one - Jaden Thompson (breakdown)
Creator - bok. p
looking for love - disclosure / the salute remix
make a move - max chapman
so generally pitch shifting, lpf, etc. however whenever I try this I don't have anywhere near the vocal clarity they do, and or it sounds too distorted (if I'm using something like VocalSynth 2 or LittleAlterBoy)
I find it kinda hard to make vocals sound "natural" as well.. hmm.
@@gabrielwood3016 the quality of the original vocal performance is a massive factor in how it 'survives' processing. Both the performance and the recording. If it's annunciated well , with breath and clear transients, in a good booth it will be less and less clear with each process. If it is not a full quality pcm file format either like .wav, then the mp3 encode algorithm is also a factor.
Although I'm not sure those refs are great examples. Has Salute every had clear vocals??? haha.
As for the Jaden / Chapmen those aren't processed very much at all. a little bit of formant reduction and vintage reverb on the right vocal is all they are using there. also pay attention to the arrangement is there a lot of room in the track for the vocals to do their thing, no pads or mid chords in the wav. just drums, bass and vocals in most vocal sections.
Oh wow literally just researching this. I’d seen a video by Panorama Mixing and Mastering about this exact subject. It’s worth a look!
I haven't figured out yet if I like that you provide so much information or if I don't like it because of all the new rabbit holes I find watching your vids. Truly amazing content!
Haha yeah sorry about that! I try to keep it about the music most of the time I promise!
You are hilarious. Incredible explanation. Thank you for this video.
Thanks again for your extremely informative and entertaining content..I value and appreciate you greatly sir.
this has blown my mind
What about shelving, its a better option?
Well, It's 'better' in the sense that it introduces less phase changes but obviously worse at achieving frequency control.
It's not something to worry about in general tbh it's just something to be aware of when trouble shooting sound behaviour
This is gold!! Thank you!
Learnt something new today ! What a breakthrough thank you, I allay am wary to just bluntly Lo cut tracks but now I’m empowered by science and reason 😌
Don't get me wrong, I apply high pass filters and EQ all over the place, but this just shows why they increase level.
Still make sure to concentrate on the music!
I understand why it happens, I've seen other videos on it in the past, but what I don't get is why it always causes higher peak db, why don't you ever get a reduction, also how on earth do you EQ out unwanted low end from audio without making it cause problems, do we need to use a limiter after anything we low cut?
I agree that a video on how to deal with these phase shifts in a mix would be cool
He doesn't always cause higher levels. It sometimes causes lower levels too. It's all dependent on the luck of the draw regarding how the sounds harmonics line up.
Regarding limiting, I would limit to compensate, especially if the part is essential to groove, limiters sound bad enough out having to react with three extra decibels we can't hear!
wow, thank you for making a saw wave from scratch
Music Technology and Acoustics university throwback, you brought me back 13 years when my professor
telling me to pay attention and i was like wtf you talking about i will just make music
Yep this video is more about tying up loose ends. I'm aware of the science but I still eq my tracks all the time and get on with it without a worry.
I suppose it's more of a problem solving thing in edge cases.
24 years of musicproduction and I have finally undestood that!
You're crazy 😂 Crazy good at explaining things, of course. Thanks!
Great content do you have any recommendations on literature about this topic and other useful scientific information related to these subjects as ive tried to find some information but so many books around. I have the books from bobkats and a few otheres but I dont recall this being covered. Thanks for your help.
I'm not aware of any sorry, in reality It's something we can't practically do much about , just be wary of. i hadn't seen anyone discussing the phase of harmonics well until Dan Worral did his video.
@@Bthelick Thanks for the response
So now that I know this… what do I do? How can I get that headroom back? Surely we can’t just not use filters? How do we mitigate/work around this?
No kids just to be aware of for problem solving. I high pass lots of things all the time !
It was just to answer those that wanted to know from the first video.
It's just to have in mind , for example if you the type that uses compressors and you already have one on a track but you decide to add a high pass at the beginning , now you might have in mind that the threshold will probably need readjusting. Things like that.
Yeh alot of people will cut those lows for headroom not knowing it will hit the limiter harder, you can use linear phase but i dont like that kind of filter on the lows, im only halfway through video so hope a suggestion comes ha
Exactly, this phenomena actually occurs still with linear phase eqs believe it or not. But regardless you're right, they effect the low frequencies across the time domain in their own terrible way. Certainly worse for groove.
Can you do a video on how to treat basses correctly when eq-ing? Also Is it smart to frequency split a bass to different tracks for more control?
Yes I've already done a video on how I process bass.
th-cam.com/video/suXj2OICbaA/w-d-xo.htmlsi=afXYUFJ6B6HG8xrx
I don't advise EQing sub frequencies at all , unless you are aware of a definite imbalance in a sample.
If you are using synth sub bass (sine wave is all that is needed usually) then it should already be completely even at all frequencies which is perfect. You don't want certain notes being louder than others!
Any differences you hear in that frequency range will usually be the fault of your room/speakers/ears.
@@Bthelick thank you!
Thanks for the great explanation!
How can you apply this knowledge of using EQ in practice without using an oscilloscope or FFT analysis.
If you could demonstrate this on a track that would be great :)
I did demonstrate it in the other video I mention the start. "how to not master your tracks"
it's not really a case of implementing, it's happening all the time already when we EQ, , it's just something to be aware of when trouble shooting scenarios of strange behaviour.
Great video, would be great to do video tutorials on the genre of music/track in this video please :)
What's your advise then? 😅
Don't worry about it!
The video is just tying up loose ends, The science is good to know when you are troubleshooting scenarios, like "where did all my mastering Headroom go" or "why does this limiter sound terrible all of a sudden".
But in day to day operation is not a big deal.
@@Bthelick got it! :)
Super cool learning about this! So is this something we should be combating?? Gain staging? Not using EQs? more EQs?
It's more something to be aware of when things aren't behaving as you expect. It's not a big deal in practicality.
sensei, could you make a video about funky bassline like klaus veen? I tried to do something similar but the result is always atrocious
Any particular track(s) ?
@@Bthelick smooth arrangements, ordinary days v1,v2, house sample. I know it's not your type of sound, but the concept of his bassline is interesting
How do you feel about using Izotopes imager for splitting frequencies. I do it all the time to seperate the lows,mids & highs
I believe it’s way cleaner than using a standard EQ. Imager uses a “hybrid” mode for splitting frequencies
It's no different really, yes they process in a different way to some others (there are many ways of calculating filters not just one, Butterworth, Linkwitz, Bessel to name a few) there will still be interference around each cross over point. The crossover files in imager are only 'invisible' when all bands are at 0.
Hey can you do a video how to produce BASS House. Like Julian Jordan...
Any particular tracks? I don't think he has 'a sound'
@@Bthelick ASPIRIN, CHAMPION , THE BASS,NOISE, VIBE...LOSINGG MY HEAD
@@Bthelick OR MAYBE A how to produce like overmono or Jamie xx. Tracks like kill them, blind date, I have a love.
I think I need to watch (hear) this a few times 🧐 and is there a easy way to find/solve these problems if you don't know the're there?
Well I would never say it was easy.
If you don't know it's happening then everything is fine!
It's really not a big deal. This video is more about tying up loose ends, And scientific curiosity. I EQ my tracks all the time without a worry
@@Bthelick ofcourse in the end the're not really problems and more inconveniences but since I'm doing aggressive industrial hardcore kicks it can make a big difference in loudness 😄 so like I said I need to watch this a few times to really understand the concept and how to use it in that regard because I sometimes have those attack problems. Which I never understood and now I at least know where they come from 🧐
Mondays are becoming the best day of the week huh 🤩
Random question but i cant seem to find a answer anywhere, would you know what was used for the bass on 'sandy b - make the world go round' or how to create a similar sound, thanks..
th-cam.com/video/c6j9-gRbrCE/w-d-xo.html
That's the one that camisra sampled isn't it?
It's an organ-like patch for sure.
I'm not sure where it's from but you can make it with a filtered saw and Ann added sine wave on top pitched +19 (one and a half octaves just like the M1 organ)
@@Bthelick Thanks for the reply
Let me know if you need a video
@@Bthelick That would be great, thanks again
@@Bthelick I ended up sampling it, but it had the percussion on still, i layered it with the m1 organ with decapitator on, sounds decent, i'm still learning so would be great to see a tutorial on making the actual sound
Brake screeeeeeech. Hold up. When you say eq achieves it's effect through phase shift, does the same hold true for other filters as well? Like stand alone low / high pass / comb / bandpass, etc?
All filters yes. There are many methods to achieve them of course, like the Butterworth method, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley etc etc but every one I'm aware of uses cancellation / addition of some kind.
@@Bthelick I would really like a good explanation on BW, BS and LWR filters and how they operate
@Bthelick well thank you very much for the reply, and for pointing my curiosity down a few paths of learning.
Are you wanting to learn at the mathematical /structural level , or the audio level? I'm sure there's videos out there for both
@@Bthelick yes, and yes, and woo boy, I have some learning to do.
Really interesting
I think the Dan Worral video you referred to is called " EQ does not cause phase shift... "
I checked that one it's not that.
I think it might be an old fabfilter tutorial or another of his commissions I can't find it on his channel. He does exactly the same and reconstructs a wave with stacked sine waves.
I hope you paid someone to stack those sines :) Excellent yet again.
Haha unfortunately no one was paid. My own song got flagged and the video is demonetized 🤦♂️
@@Bthelick what the...can you challenge that with YT? That doesn't sound right.
Bruh I didn't understand the main point. What is this volume change we don't hear?
Did you see the first video?
@@Bthelick what was that first video?
The video starts with me saying " this is a follow-up video" to " how to not master your tracks" I show the screenshot and it's also linked in the description.
I stoped the video at 36 seconds...
...as far as can see the issue is frequence masking...
As soon we get rid of them, the lever jumps to de ceiling...
...because we are eliminating phase cancelation...
Am I wrong, teacher? 😃
I'm afraid not. there can't be frequency masking if it's one sound and the harmonics are all individual frequencies.
The song in the video at 00.36 is not an example of the phenomena it's just a random selection from my recent releases.
We all know that you are Dan Worrell really.
You could have 'drawn' your sawtooth in Operator with the user wave function and saved yourself a whole lot of clicks :p
Haha I know, but how would I shift the phase of 1 harmonic?
@Bthelick Ooohh haha, true! I didn't think of that.
Wohoo first comment! 🎉