This is why I like retrospectives, the different perspectives you can get on games you love. The issues you had with Thief 2 are some of the main factors for my enjoyment - the loot hunting for example, as a kid back in 1999 the second level of the game was one of my favourites for exactly that reason and I like that the primary objective is basically 'make rent' (not to mention there's some fun hidden loot and world building to boot - like the guy selling spider meat). I even enjoyed Casing the Joint for much the same reason - it's clearly padding but it's padding that makes sense as something a thief would occasionally need to do, and on a first playthrough things like the more you fill in your map, the more info you have for the next level kind of blew my mind when I played for the first time. Even on repeat playthroughs it doesn't irritate me as you can speed through it (though I totally get why it would bother many people). It's what makes Thief and Thief 2 interesting to me, Thief leads more into the fantasy of the world and being out of your depth as Garrett is led by the nose for much of the game, while Thief 2 delivers more on the grounded thievery and uncovering a greater threat through that. Most people prefer one or the other, but I love them both equally - it's like having different flavours of ice cream. They're both ice cream, but sometimes I want banana, and sometimes I want caramel.
@@alexblackmore7744 Exactly! I'm not here trying to pretend my opinions are some objective truth, but instead am sharing my perspective and trying my best to explain why I think this way. That's the beauty of retrospectives, and to me, watching first time playthroughs on Twitch. It gives a window to someone else's opinion, which I can then use to contrast with my own and maybe expand my understanding of my own opinions!
Thief Simulator and Thief Simulator 2 are the only games that really have the same kind of game play as Thief: The Dark Project and Thief 2: The Metal Age
The first Thief will always be one of my all-time favourite games. As a teenager, I didn't think too much about the flaws, I just enjoyed the unusual experience the game provided to me. Of course I was one of those people who - back then - played this game in darkness, the computer monitor as the only light source. These circumstances weren't optimal, but it felt right to play the game this way - although it brought me some jumpscares. :-D I'm very glad I came across this game - to some extend it is very unique and its strengths outshine the flaws.
I recently started learning Godot and making my own games. And among various other games from the same time, Thief is very much the number one inspiration of what I want to make. There is still so much great potential from these games that never got fully realized as development tools became more accessible and computers surpassed the limitations of late 90s hardware. It's awesome to see that games like Lunacid, Dread Delusion, and Fortune's Run have already started reviving this abandoned branch of game evolution and building on what was established 25 years ago.
@@Yora21 In many ways we are living the best days of gaming. Thanks to the easy availability of tools and distribution methods, indie games are giving us so many amazing experiences inspired by the past, which might feel too risky for larger budget studios to tackle.
I don't really agree with the part that you can't save loot for later is a negative aspect. In Deadly Shadows you'll eventually end up having so much money you'll keep asking yourself "what's the point of stealing anything now?". I prefer the way the first two games handled this. It encouraged me to explore every part of the map, so I could be better prepared for the next mission.
@@wacawgregorczyk807 It wouldn't be as much of it if the games were consistent with the rules, which they are not. If all levels were like that, and no level retained what you had? Then I would be fine with a consistent ruleset where each level is its own ecosystem. Now that is not the case and it's a mix of different rules for different levels, potentially making new players replay some levels due to a sudden rule change.
@@finntrovert I guess that's a possibility. But on the other hand the game teaches the player that he'll never be able to for example extinguish all light sources in the level and he has to think when he is going to use his resources, because he might need them later in the level. And by having this mindset he'll end up having a bunch of water and moss arrows at the end of a mission. And if the player couldn't restock and was dropped straight in the next mission he could always find some equipment in the level or he could try ghosting through it, that's always still an option. I see your point but I kinda view it as a nitpick. I mean I don't remember having this issue as a 10 year old back in 1999. And if someone wants to play Thief for the first time in 2024 he probably already played Dishonored, Styx, Deus Ex or an other stealth game and knows more about the genre than I did back then. To sum up, I view missions like "Trail of Blood" as pulling the rug from underneath the player but in fun, challenging way.
@wacawgregorczyk807 What you view as a nitpick, I view as trying to see potential issues from as many viewpoints as possible. You described what you learned, whereas ignoring that someone else might have learned the exact opposite. Since equipment resets, why save items for the end? Might as well use them. I also didn't say the system was bad, as you seem to have understood, I just said there are potential issues, and I also like an economy where resource management carries over.
Awesome job! Another game I'm only familiar with from afar. I had no clue the setting was so interesting and the sound design took so much into account.
@@bannin2916 Thief does a good job hiding its special nature by, on the surface, seeming a bit generic. But there's so much more to it than one look may give off.
@@camwyn256 Not necessarily, initially they tend to go unconscious, BUT if you strike as they are falling, they completely die, leading to having to be very careful with the amount of bonks.
Still, more than 25 years later, these are my two favorite games, followed by the original Deus Ex. I have only ever enjoyed Minecraft anywhere near as much. ZERO games since have equaled their directional sound. Legendary games...
It makes sense for Garret to only pick up really valuable stuff. He's lean and knows what he's looking for. Also, why would the game be challenging if you could take everything and make money that way? You wouldn't have a reason to explore the leves thoroughly.
Had you played the game blindly (authentically), you would have developed a more natural understanding of the game's lore/world, tools and mechanics, what is each best for and also what is best for your gameplay preferences, ie the fun of it without the need of stating, sometimes inaccurately, the obvious. Or, as the developers meant it for the player to discover things for themselves as part of the world's attraction through its natural dangers, secrets & magic and your exploration and journey through it (just for the record, you can dispose of zombies in way more ways than one - if you choose so, which is again part of the poetry of discovery and adapting it to your playstyle as you go). Also and rather importantly, the world changes with each higher difficulty (more tasks/loot/more npcs/enemies/areas to explore, necessity of different approaches, simply more content), underscoring both the exploration and player's gameplay evolution aspect. So for any in-depth summary I would also expect a reviewer to definitely finish it on Expert.
Indeed, it is difficult for me to authentically play a game blind in 2024, when I played it blind in the late 90's and have played it dozens of times since. Which is why I don't pretend I haven't played a game I have, but instead try to also look at things from a perspective which may be obvious to someone already knowledgable with the game, and might even seem nitpicky or overly critical. But that's the idea, it might be that for a lot, but I also try to make these in a way where people with 0 knowledge or even intent to play the games would get a decent understanding. Warts and all, since even greatness has flaws.
@nanao.292 I have, multiple times. If you want to see one of those times, you can go to Twitch and watch the full playthrough where I go through the series on expert. I thought I explained why for this purpose I didn't, because especially with Thief 2 the loot hunting just becomes tedious instead of being fun for me.
![[FULL] RETROSPECTIVE : Final Fantasy Tactics](/img/n.gif)
Almost a 2 hour long thief retrospective. Is this heaven? Subscribed.
This is why I like retrospectives, the different perspectives you can get on games you love. The issues you had with Thief 2 are some of the main factors for my enjoyment - the loot hunting for example, as a kid back in 1999 the second level of the game was one of my favourites for exactly that reason and I like that the primary objective is basically 'make rent' (not to mention there's some fun hidden loot and world building to boot - like the guy selling spider meat). I even enjoyed Casing the Joint for much the same reason - it's clearly padding but it's padding that makes sense as something a thief would occasionally need to do, and on a first playthrough things like the more you fill in your map, the more info you have for the next level kind of blew my mind when I played for the first time. Even on repeat playthroughs it doesn't irritate me as you can speed through it (though I totally get why it would bother many people).
It's what makes Thief and Thief 2 interesting to me, Thief leads more into the fantasy of the world and being out of your depth as Garrett is led by the nose for much of the game, while Thief 2 delivers more on the grounded thievery and uncovering a greater threat through that.
Most people prefer one or the other, but I love them both equally - it's like having different flavours of ice cream. They're both ice cream, but sometimes I want banana, and sometimes I want caramel.
@@alexblackmore7744 Exactly!
I'm not here trying to pretend my opinions are some objective truth, but instead am sharing my perspective and trying my best to explain why I think this way.
That's the beauty of retrospectives, and to me, watching first time playthroughs on Twitch. It gives a window to someone else's opinion, which I can then use to contrast with my own and maybe expand my understanding of my own opinions!
@finntrovert absolutely!
I like ice cream as well
Especially cold ice cream, that in particular is my favorite type of ice cream
These are such beautiful games. RIP Looking Glass.
Thief Simulator and Thief Simulator 2 are the only games that really have the same kind of game play as Thief: The Dark Project and Thief 2: The Metal Age
There is an endless charm to early 2000s graphics
Easily one of the best retrospective TH-camrs
@@ryandavid9850 Thanks!
Thief. Where bunny hoping keeps increasing your speed, to the point where you can take lethal "fall" damage if you hit a wall going fast enough
@@camwyn256 Got to love that older game jank!
The first Thief will always be one of my all-time favourite games. As a teenager, I didn't think too much about the flaws, I just enjoyed the unusual experience the game provided to me. Of course I was one of those people who - back then - played this game in darkness, the computer monitor as the only light source. These circumstances weren't optimal, but it felt right to play the game this way - although it brought me some jumpscares. :-D
I'm very glad I came across this game - to some extend it is very unique and its strengths outshine the flaws.
Yes new Finntrovert video. Time to get cosy and start watching 🥳
I recently started learning Godot and making my own games. And among various other games from the same time, Thief is very much the number one inspiration of what I want to make. There is still so much great potential from these games that never got fully realized as development tools became more accessible and computers surpassed the limitations of late 90s hardware.
It's awesome to see that games like Lunacid, Dread Delusion, and Fortune's Run have already started reviving this abandoned branch of game evolution and building on what was established 25 years ago.
@@Yora21 In many ways we are living the best days of gaming.
Thanks to the easy availability of tools and distribution methods, indie games are giving us so many amazing experiences inspired by the past, which might feel too risky for larger budget studios to tackle.
I don't really agree with the part that you can't save loot for later is a negative aspect. In Deadly Shadows you'll eventually end up having so much money you'll keep asking yourself "what's the point of stealing anything now?". I prefer the way the first two games handled this. It encouraged me to explore every part of the map, so I could be better prepared for the next mission.
@@wacawgregorczyk807 It wouldn't be as much of it if the games were consistent with the rules, which they are not.
If all levels were like that, and no level retained what you had? Then I would be fine with a consistent ruleset where each level is its own ecosystem.
Now that is not the case and it's a mix of different rules for different levels, potentially making new players replay some levels due to a sudden rule change.
@@finntrovert I guess that's a possibility. But on the other hand the game teaches the player that he'll never be able to for example extinguish all light sources in the level and he has to think when he is going to use his resources, because he might need them later in the level. And by having this mindset he'll end up having a bunch of water and moss arrows at the end of a mission. And if the player couldn't restock and was dropped straight in the next mission he could always find some equipment in the level or he could try ghosting through it, that's always still an option.
I see your point but I kinda view it as a nitpick. I mean I don't remember having this issue as a 10 year old back in 1999. And if someone wants to play Thief for the first time in 2024 he probably already played Dishonored, Styx, Deus Ex or an other stealth game and knows more about the genre than I did back then.
To sum up, I view missions like "Trail of Blood" as pulling the rug from underneath the player but in fun, challenging way.
@wacawgregorczyk807 What you view as a nitpick, I view as trying to see potential issues from as many viewpoints as possible.
You described what you learned, whereas ignoring that someone else might have learned the exact opposite. Since equipment resets, why save items for the end? Might as well use them.
I also didn't say the system was bad, as you seem to have understood, I just said there are potential issues, and I also like an economy where resource management carries over.
This is gonna be a nice saturday evening!
What a treat to spend a lazy sunday watching this! Thanks.
My favorite finnish bloat hope your doing well brother thanks for another banger
@@aarongrabel4201 Thanks! Doing pretty well, enjoying life to the best of my abilities.
Hopefully you are doing fine as well.
@finntrovert doing great my friend everyone is healthy and happy all I can ask for.
@aarongrabel4201 That's very good.
Awesome job! Another game I'm only familiar with from afar. I had no clue the setting was so interesting and the sound design took so much into account.
@@bannin2916 Thief does a good job hiding its special nature by, on the surface, seeming a bit generic.
But there's so much more to it than one look may give off.
Such great games. There really isn't anything else like them.
Cool that Garett got a prosthetic eye.
Beating an alert guard with the blackjack in Thief Gold is slow and counts as a kill, as I found out when that's how I failed playing on expert
@@camwyn256 Not necessarily, initially they tend to go unconscious, BUT if you strike as they are falling, they completely die, leading to having to be very careful with the amount of bonks.
Now I've watched your video in full, I realize how much deus ex is taking these elements into itself!
Lovely games, old but gold
"im going to sub to Finntrovert tomorrow, ya wanna come with?"
As always; Awesome video ❤
@@Noz3 Thanks!
Still, more than 25 years later, these are my two favorite games, followed by the original Deus Ex. I have only ever enjoyed Minecraft anywhere near as much. ZERO games since have equaled their directional sound. Legendary games...
@@shodan6401 I appreciate your taste in games.
Maybe I need to reinstall Deus Ex. Again.
But... there's not enough loot, for a game called thief! Lemme loot literally everything, nailed or not!!! =P
Unfortunately, these games are more about wealth acquisition instead of being a Bob Chandler simulator...
Not worth it, unless everything ends up being on fire after we are finished :P
@@RTheren Everything IS fire, anyway. xD
It makes sense for Garret to only pick up really valuable stuff. He's lean and knows what he's looking for. Also, why would the game be challenging if you could take everything and make money that way? You wouldn't have a reason to explore the leves thoroughly.
What's the game at the start with the sci-fi orb gun?
@@FelisImpurrator Shogo: Mobile Armor Division.
@finntrovert Sweet, thanks.
Thief will come back. I just know it.
@@iwuvu5940 I sure hope so!
Time to thief!
Where Thief: The Bread Age?
It's still in the oven.
Thief 3 video?
Soon.
Suomi saatana
nyt tekee miel pelata näit ku ostin steami alesta :P
@@maestergiguruzugi404 Hyvä!
Hauskaa pamputtamista! XD
Had you played the game blindly (authentically), you would have developed a more natural understanding of the game's lore/world, tools and mechanics, what is each best for and also what is best for your gameplay preferences, ie the fun of it without the need of stating, sometimes inaccurately, the obvious. Or, as the developers meant it for the player to discover things for themselves as part of the world's attraction through its natural dangers, secrets & magic and your exploration and journey through it (just for the record, you can dispose of zombies in way more ways than one - if you choose so, which is again part of the poetry of discovery and adapting it to your playstyle as you go). Also and rather importantly, the world changes with each higher difficulty (more tasks/loot/more npcs/enemies/areas to explore, necessity of different approaches, simply more content), underscoring both the exploration and player's gameplay evolution aspect. So for any in-depth summary I would also expect a reviewer to definitely finish it on Expert.
Indeed, it is difficult for me to authentically play a game blind in 2024, when I played it blind in the late 90's and have played it dozens of times since. Which is why I don't pretend I haven't played a game I have, but instead try to also look at things from a perspective which may be obvious to someone already knowledgable with the game, and might even seem nitpicky or overly critical.
But that's the idea, it might be that for a lot, but I also try to make these in a way where people with 0 knowledge or even intent to play the games would get a decent understanding. Warts and all, since even greatness has flaws.
@@finntrovert Thank you for your carefully weighed words but if so then even more why haven't you played it on expert, ie the full content hmmm?
@nanao.292 I have, multiple times. If you want to see one of those times, you can go to Twitch and watch the full playthrough where I go through the series on expert.
I thought I explained why for this purpose I didn't, because especially with Thief 2 the loot hunting just becomes tedious instead of being fun for me.
you used a walkthrough obviously
Obviously.
Obviously.
Obviously
Obviously.
Indeed.
Verily, I say...
Ergo!
the games do have subtitles
@@WOOHOJEHA As a third party mod for NewDark. I rarely look at mods though and try to look at the games as vanilla as possible.