Richard Carrier Discusses Jesus, Saturnalia and Christmas Celebrations w/ Mythinformed
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
- Brian Edward and Kristyn Whitaker Hood interview Dr. Richard Carrier on the Mythinformed podcast, where they delve into the myths that surround Jesus and the Christmas holiday. Christmas does not belong to Christianity. People have celebrated winter solstice in many areas around the world through many religions that date back to the ancient world. This is a fantastic discussion that covers some of those celebrations.
Richard Carrier is a world-renowned author and speaker. As a professional historian, published philosopher, and prominent defender of the American freethought movement, Dr. Carrier has appeared across the U.S., Canada, and the U.K., and on American television and London radio, defending sound historical methods and the ethical worldview of secular naturalism. His books and articles have received international attention. With a Ph.D. from Columbia University in ancient history, he specializes in the intellectual history of Greece and Rome, particularly ancient philosophy, religion, and science, with emphasis on the origins of Christianity and the use and progress of science under the Roman empire. He is also a published expert in the modern philosophy of naturalism as a worldview.
He is the author of On the Historicity of Jesus, Proving History, Sense and Goodness without God, Science Education in the Early Roman Empire, Not the Impossible Faith, Why I Am Not a Christian, and Hitler Homer Bible Christ, and a contributor to The Empty Tomb, The Christian Delusion, The End of Christianity, and Christianity Is Not Great, as well as copious work in history and philosophy, online and in print. He is currently working on several projects but also teaching affordable online courses in secular philosophy, history, and methodology at The Secular Academy, and blogging and speaking about history, philosophy, feminism, and other moral causes, as well as his past in the military and his current life in polyamory. To learn more about Dr. Carrier and his work follow the links below.
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Links regarding topics discussed:
Richard Carrier's Patreon"
/ drrichardcarrier
Carrier/Comfort Debate
www.richardcar...
Carrier article on Virgin Birth
www.richardcar...
Richard Carrier "Rapture Day"
• Richard Carrier, Raptu...
Richard Carrier Deconstructs Christianity:
• Richard Carrier Decons...
How to celebrate Saturnalia
www.wikihow.co...
Chester Saturnalia Parade
• Saturnalia Parade Ches...
"For how many years shall this festival abide! Never shall age destroy so holy a day! While the hills of Latium remain and father Tiber, while thy Rome stands and the Capitol thou hast restored to the world, it shall continue."
• Video
Erudition combined with fine wit, served with a lighthearted tone. What a treat!
Fabrizio Corradini
Yes! Carrier is one of my favourite speakers.
I accidentally read all of Carrier's books.
I didn't plan to, it just happened when I bought the first one and couldn't stop.
Read the rebuttals to his books, which may make you wish you could get all that time and money back again.
The two rebuttal I came across looked like they had been written by the village idiot after a long night of binge drinking. Was I supposed to be impressed?
They are a lot easier to read than the bibull.
You think we should all be impressed by that silly comment?
Virtuoso Joel: Hi Virtuoso; without planning it, you read all Dr. Carrier books! Very well... now, do something that you plan, that you chose to do, using the free choice that God gave you, the free will you were born with as a child of God... and read all the 66 Books of the Bible. You can do it, on your own volition... the Lord will bless you through His Word... He will.
There's nothing new under the Sun. It's all just about power and control.
I really believed in Jesus ,felt so dumb after mr Carrier explained it all,but it’s better to know the truth, and I no longer have to turn the other cheek to these assholes out here, but I can still be kind to unfortunate and not pick on people.i wish I would’ve found out wayyy earlier.better late than never.thank you mr cattier
When you realize there are Zoroastrian Astrologers in your manger scene.
Who are you trying to convince? Me or you?
The late fall and winter holidays are based on harvest times and the Winter Solstice, which are real things that simply got a lot of mythology piled on top of them. So I enjoy the holidays as celebrations of things that really happen. Harvest happens and Winter Solstice comes every year. They are real. But I can also enjoy all of the mythological symbolism that surrounds these events across all cultures. This approach has transformed something that I loved as a child, but became very uncomfortable with when I became an Atheist, back into something I can love again.
Many questions would be answered if the Vatican archives where opened.
I think you are underestimating the Vatican’s desire to destroy anything that disagrees with their theology.
*Regarding the "communist" verse in Acts.* Marxism rejects being compared to early christianity, only because marxism uses materialist and scientific arguments to argue that capitalism is a system with inherent contradictions and crises, and as such cannot last forever. The marxist analysis is fundamentally based on economics and dialectical & materialist philosophy. Christian communists and the so-called utopian socialists argued that capitalism is immoral, and thus must be overthrown. However, Marxism does not argue that communism is necessary only because it is morally superior, but also because of other reasons. In other words, while Marxism recognizes the moral superiority of communism, it bases its fundamental arguments on "cold hard facts" and not morality.
There is a big hint that celebrating on the winter solstice goes way back. As in thousands of years back. It comes from astronomically aligned monuments like Newgrange and Knowth and Dowth and Maeshowe from around 5000 years ago, and the Goseck Circle in southern Germany from about 7000 years ago.
I suspect that these festivals go back even further. As prehistoric archaeologists develop new techniques and revise their original ideas, they are finding that prehistoric societies were a lot more complex than previously thought.
@heilige Einfalt Heard about the Nebra skydisc, very interesting.
brilliant man
Excellent conversation. Interesting to learn how feudalism was born.
Agree. I suppose I always thought that it just developed out of necessity over a long period of time as people huddled together to protect themselves. It’s very interesting indeed that it was decreed from Cesar.
Richard carrier for Christianity is like pesticide for pest.
zeus: You can throw as much pesticide as you wish on pests... they will always survive. God bless you.
The late fall and winter holidays are based primarily on harvest and the Winter Solstice, which are real things but have a lot of mythology piled on top of them. So I enjoy them for their reality and the psychology and symbolism of the mythology without having to believe any of it is real.
I enjoy the music, decorations, food, and planetary science significance
Ancient Science is fascinating I want to learn so much more.
The age of consent here in the UK is 16.
It is interesting how, even back then, there were people who just ignore common knowledge. They had spiteful politicians and politicians who used religious groups to gain favor with their constituents.
Love Carriers work but hearing him say patreon is very funny
By the way, the English city of Chester is located on the mainland of Great Britain - fairly near Liverpool and close to the border with Wales.
Their is a by-law that you can shoot a Welshman within Chatser's city walls after midnight on a Sunday with a crossbow.
At 20:49, that almost doesn't make sense in itself. So God wants us to be perfect so THEN he can give us the Apocalypse? (Like saying I need you to be a good boy so I can smack you around once you are). Am I understanding that correctly?
Is it lawful [for a female who has been beaten into submission as a child, and then taken against her will, because she will eventually be violated by someone else anyway] to remove a man's prospects for fathering children and put them where his mouth is?] so he will also never speak such corruptions of the virtues of higher male intelligence?
Perhaps you should get help from someone who actually speaks English before you try to ask a question. You are not making a bit of sense.
Scientic method may be just an infinitesimal part of total reality. Who ķnows.
Geezz! who did the terrible Photoshop job on Carrier?
Yes, ham handed.
Financial support this sounds like a cult too.
I think Richard neildit
Anyone can tell me who is the female scientist on acoustic and harmonics at 44:42?
Which book is this in ?
I love Richard. I would like to know his opinion about Tom Campbell and his big theory of everything. Please look into that Richard. He's on TH-cam.
Could really use some sources for the ancient scientists and spherical earth science being as he said, some of the best science in the ancient world.
At first glance, I read the name of this podcast as “My Thin Formed”.
I love Carrier but the host is right about Donald Trump, you've got to be pretty biased to think this rich guy who became the fucking President of the United States some kind of idiot who stumbles around politics. Great discussion!
In a world where half the people are good Christians and yet most people die because of something someone else did on purpose, the Jesus myth is a far-fetched tale indeed!
Archimedes was Greek.
Check all the sources online. They all say Greek.
Ptolemy was Greek as well.
Heron Greek too.
You cant make such basic mistakes!
Archimedes means in Greek, the lord of thinking. αρχι (archon, lord) + μειδομαι (thinking).
Ptolemy means warrior from the archaic πτολεμος - πολεμος (war).
Heron its from Ηρα Hera, the masculine form.
Cleopatra κλεος (fame, power, elit, glory) + πατηρ (father) carrying the fathers glory.
Typical Greek names still found today.
Mythicist Milwaukee they were not Romans.
Its a big mistake to mix cultures.
Romans is NOT Roman citizen.
So Yoshepus was a Roman historian?
He was a jew! Paul was Roman? He was a Jew! He was a Roman citizen but a Jew.
Saying that Archimedes was Roman its like calling Bin Laden an American.
Syracuse Συρακουσες, was a Greek colony, founded by Greeks, centuries before Rome!
Syracuse wasnt a thing before the Greeks.
Archimedes was living there during the Roman expansion. He fought against Romans.
Im Greek and i can easily read and translate in to English the gospels. Any Greek can understand the New testament written in Hellenistic Greek. The dialect called koine, has a name, its Hellenistic. Koine means common, and most Greek dialects were common.
I can also verify many of the things Carrier said about mis translations. If you read the original text you can find big mistakes. The stories are written to feel and not think. The text are powerful and people abandon logic just to live the experience.
You think there is a difference between modern and ancient Greek.
I can tell you there is none. Except the religion most of the culture survived with the language, and the culture changed only slightly. The difference is back then the slaves were doing the work we have to do now. But we were always the same lazy but brilliant, doing only what is needed and never more than that, so we can enjoy the life we have. We work to live and party. I recommend you visit Greece in summer if you want to have the experience of your lifetime. And never miss the parties.
@@mlazos Josephus was born a Jew, he wrote histories for a Roman audience. Did he have the status of a Roman citizen, I don't know but would not be surprised.
@Theseustoo Astyages just a reasonably reliable historian of the first century who, like all of the others, never mentioned Christ or Christians.
So at 12 they cannot consent because their mind are not at the right place and cannot comprehend however according to the world they can decide it three or four or five what gender they are and you are talking about inconsistency and Madness
what year is the actual debate Not the upload ????
It would be helpful to have that info in the description. I always like to know the year, as do a lot of other people. Thanks.
:-)
It is very current as they mention Trump
I dont buy the whole mythicist thing, but Carrier is always interesting to listen to
Jesus rebuked the religious leaders of His time and even said if one is to take up a religion it's to heed the orphan and widow affliction also keep unstained from the world so how does this work in your paradigm Dr....
Jesus says kill kids. Matthew 15:6
@@finalfrontier001 thats not what he says at all. He's using Moses' teaching his people to stone their disobedient children as an example of a man made teaching that invalidates the commandments of God (honor your mother and father, in this case)
Read Matthew 15:6 please yu have never read the Bible. Jesus openly says "why are you not following gods law by not kiling them"
In fact in medevl times this was christian ecclesistical aw to kill ids that are disobedient. John Calvin was one of them law writters.
@@finalfrontier001 He didn't say that.
Mark 7:9
" And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’[d] and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’[e] 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)- 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”
Here he says it is Moses who said that anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death, not God. Then he mentions' the pharisees tradition of allowing people to donate money or property that otherwise would have gone to their parents to the temple instead, thus nullifying the commandment to honor your mother and father. He is putting this tradition side by side with the tradition that Moses commanded his people to put disobedient children to death, as examples of man made traditions that sully and invalidate the 10 commandments, in this case the commandment to honor your parents.
Man..... I give up you are batch shit crazy. You believe in unicorns and giants why would giving you facts and references make you change your mind.
Carrier says, around the 28:00 mark, that it was well-established in the ancient world that the Earth is not flat. However, 2nd Peter 3 claims that we know God exists and the gospel story is true because the earth is flat and surrounded by water. So either the author of said letter was not educated or such knowledge was not well established. It'd be interesting to know which and why.
And you believe what the bible says is 100% correct???? Jesus fucking Christ, a snake tempted eve in Genesis, causing the source of 'original sin' and humans get absolutely hammered beyond this life and the next and the snake? His punishment is to ''crawl on your belly' forever '' more? It's not exactly a punishment, is it for a snake?
Henrique. Many things that were well-established were not in the bible.
Saying something wasn't established in the ancient world because it isn't in the bible, or because the bible disagreed, is like saying "If it's not on FOX news, it's not real and not news, and if FOX news disagrees with it, it's not well-established".
It would be like saying because Anne coulter write's racist books, it isn't established that racism is generally roundly rejected by Americans. Or that because Ron Paul writes a book saying the federal government enslaves Americans that the federal government isn't well-established. I could probably think of better analogies, but those should establish my reasoning well enough. :)
I know, and I don't disagree. However, Carrier has stated that the authors of the Bible were well-educated men, not the peasants apologists claim (one may say Ron Paul is well educated too, ok). So, if the fact that the Earth is round was well established, why did this forger used the contrary fact to claim the return of Jesus? In other words, it seems that the author presumed that the fact that the earth was not round and surrounded by water was as well established as the coming of Jesus (I know we all agree with him, just not the way he intended).
So yeah, I can see that this might have been a shared fringe position, but how can we know how fringe it was and how much this permeated the culture then?
OK, what car/automobile did the average bronze aged savage, drive to work back then and did they all have an accurate wristwatch? If they didn't have those, case closed.
I don't want you to think I am disregarding your question or not taking you seriously. I do think it's a valid question, albeit seemingly obvious. However, many very important answers come from such seemingly obvious, yet overlooked, questions.
I will answer to my best ability, from my limited understanding (you would have to ask Carrier for an expert break down): So, there are many things in the bible that contradict contextual, well-established beliefs, customs and general practices and laws. For instance, we know that it wasn't a Roman custom to allow one criminal to go free each year in exchange for anything.
The story in the bible that Barabbas (a supposed well-known murderer) was set free, so that the roman authorities would, instead, punish Jesus, is simply an outright fabrication. There was no such law nor did any such thing take place regularly or on occasion.
Carrier covers many of these kinds of problems in his books and lectures.
I will try to think of more and try to get back to you. Some are actually quite interesting. Like the Barabbas one, I always wondered if that really happened that way back then. It always stuck out to me as being a bit over the top. As if it wasn't enough that they tortured and killed him slowly, but they abused him mentally and emotionally by dangling his freedom in front of him. Then giving it to a murderer, instead.
Things like that stick out to me as literary tools, not an actual account. It's like someone telling you a story about their amazing day. They started by meeting the love of their life, getting a bonus and to top it off they were flown into Washington D.C. to receive a 'coolest person ever' award...
The first two are believable (torture and death of a heretic). The last part, if true, would really drive the story home. What a day, right?! But it's just not sensible to believe. I mean, is there even a coolest person ever award? No? Okay, then the last part is made up and was used as a literary tool to really drive home the idea that he had an amazing day.
I think it's the same with jesus and barabbas. In fact, Carrier has a very elegant theory on jesus and barabbas. It's interesting even if you don't want anything to do with mythicism. It's just a really interesting concept that is either a crazy coincidence or he's right.
If you can't find it, I can try to find it and link you. Let me know.
Jesus was mentioned in the history written by the Roman historians (Josephus and Tacitus). The idea that Jesus actually visited India can be traced to the Russian writer Nicholas Notovitch (1894) and his book The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ. In it, Notovitch claims to have visited the monastery of Hemis near Leh, Ladakh in 1887 and to have read manuscripts there telling of the travels of Jesus, known as “Issa,” in India, including his teachings, his work with untouchables, and his conflicts with Brahmans and Zoroastrian priests (Crossan, 1998). Swami Avedananda, a brother monk of Swami Vivekananda verified the claims of Notovitch by vising the same monastery in Ladakh in 1922 and supported Notovitch (Avedananda, 1988). In 1929, Nicholas Roerich and his son George Roerich went there and found clear evidence to support Notovitch (Roerich, 1929; Roerich, 1931).
Dr. Richard Carrier has little knowledge.
Reference:
Avedananda, 1988, Journey into Kashmir and Tibet, Calcutta: Vedanta Press.
Borg, M., 2005, “The Spirit-Filled Existence of Jesus.” In The Historical Jesus in Recent Research. Eds. James Dunn and Scot McKnight. New York: Eisenbrauns, 2005.
Crossan, J. D., 1998, The Birth of Christianity: Discovering What Happened in the Years Immediately After the Execution of Jesus. San Francisco: Harper.
Notovitch, N., 1894, The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ, New York: Simon & Schuster
Prophet, Elizabeth., 1986, Lost Years of Jesus, New Delhi: Jaico
Roerich, N., 1929, Altai-Himalaya, New York: Frederick Stokes.
Roerich, G., 1931, Trails to Inmost Asia: Five Years of Exploration, New Haven, Conn: Yale University Press.
Merry CHRISTmas and Happy HOLYdays to one and all.
Happy Yule, Happy Saturnalia, Happy winter solstice
Happy Festivus! Decorate that pole!
Happy all pagan holidays like Christmas.
Hi Richard: Around 20:00 and 21 in the video you touch on the fact that the original disciples and early believers were convinced that Messiah would return quickly and were, therefore, confounded at the apparent delay... Even today, after 2,000 years... more or less... no one knows exactly the day or the hour; we can only know the season, or watch "the signs of the times" which are what Messiah's told us to do.But, believers that become sceptics or begin to scoff and ridicule, and unbelievers who just laugh at the thought of people waiting for something that apparently is never going to happen... either never read Scripture, or do not understand what it says, because, on the parable of the 10 bridesmaids in Matthew 25, Messiah says SPECIFICALLY that He will tarry... He says He will be late!... the bridegroom will be late!So, at this time in history, almost 2,000 years after His first coming... we need not fret... because He told us that He will come again AND He will be late.God bless His people (who will never set dates, because He said that the times and the season are established by God only) and God bless His bride, (who, out of love for the groom-- no other reason-- will wait until He comes again!). God bless you Richard... and give you the ability to see "the signs of the times"... for the day approaches. Amen.
Mythicist Milwaukee: Hi Mythicist; yes, they were. The timetable they understood was according to Psalm 2: Israel believes in Messiah; the seven-year trouble comes and ends; Messiah returns to establish His Kingdom.
Israel continued to reject Yeshua as Messiah... Many still do... therefore, the "time of the Gentiles" begins; when this is complete... which is about done... Messiah will return. God bless you.
Mario DiBlasio - Jesus said to a couple of people that he would be back in their lifetime. They are all dead and he did not return. The excuse that the son did not know about the date he would be back would make Jesus to a liar as he did not know and make a fact claim. Not to mention that this make Jesus subservient to god as he is not equal and it kills any idea of the trinity and makes him to a minor god at best. So the Christians worship one god who knows all and a minor god Jesus who knows less. Not to mention the my god my god why have you forsaken men. One should think a god knows he is a god and does not pray to himself.
Torian Tammas: Hi Torian; my name is Mario, not Maria, but this is a minor mistake that you can easily correct... However, you are far from "rightly dividing the word of truth," as Scriptures ask all of us to do.
But fear not: begin with the words of Jesus "I and My Father are ONE," and you will be on your way to learn the correct way to worship.
God bless you.
Mario Diblasio - So when I open the first page and red the first paragraph in the bible is this there? Well is is in the first paragraph of any story in the bible? No, hmm either the authors of the stories had a different opinion of what is important or it is just you personal choice. So is it a game of pick and choose? Would it not be great that the authors would have been so smart and put it at the start of their stories when you consider it to be important?
JMario DiBlasio - So will you explain to me what Jesus is either not knowing and so giving a false statement or he lies. What is it? If he does not know he is not god. Jesus said to a couple of people that he would be back in their lifetime. They are all dead and he did not return. The excuse that the son did not know about the date he would be back would make Jesus to a liar as he did not know and make a fact claim. Not to mention that this make Jesus subservient to god as he is not equal and it kills any idea of the trinity and makes him to a minor god at best. So the Christians worship one god who knows all and a minor god Jesus who knows less. Not to mention the my god my god why have you forsaken men. One should think a god knows he is a god and does not pray to himself.
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ANTWORTEN
the earth is flat
You are the smartest girl ever.
Glenn parent Then you get to be wrong.
And an idiot.
Do the Eratosthenes shadow-measuring experiment with friends at different latitudes.
Make timelapse videos of the stars around Polaris during a clear night, and compare them with videos of Sigma Octantis (Polaris Australis) made by friends in the Southern hemisphere.
If you’re not a night owl like me, then on a sunny day, do a timelapse of the shadow of a pole and have friends do an equivalent timelapse on the other hemisphere. Compare the movements the tips of the respective shadows make. One is clockwise, one is counter-clockwise. Flat-earthism disproven.
If you capable of doing high-school math, calculculate tides, spring tides, eclipses, solstices, and conjunctions based on the mainstream/heliocentric/round-earth model, then try to do the same based on any flat-earth model you can find that actually makes quantifiable predictions. See which model fits best.
Quite topical today (2017-12-22): yesterday was the day with the longest night on the northern hemisphere. Try to find any flat-earth model that predicted the day and the time interval - you know, like amateur astronomers like me do with a heliocentric, oblate-spheroid Earth model day today, all around the globe (ha!).
If it's flat, then where do the Morlocks live?
I always carry a spare Earth in case one of the others goes flat.