Yeah I noticed that afterward and feel kind of bad. I don't think someone who has been training that long should be doing freeplay - it's a good way to open up bad habits.
Freeplay can certainly reinforce bad habits, but it has its place. Our training methodology has three parts. 1. Research, reading historical material and watching videos. 2. Training, drilling and sparring. 3. Cutting, using sharps to cut tatami to test edge alignment and posture. A small amount of freeplay is very useful in order for students to test what they have learned in drilling. If beginners aren't given some opportunity to practice in a non-predictable environment, they just learn set patterns of actions and never learn how to use them in real combat. They end up sparring as if they're simply doing drills, and then they can't figure out why it isn't working. Freeplay is a useful way of identifying bad habits, which is why we use it. But we use it very sparingly. We have students who have been with us for three months who haven't done any freeplay yet, and won't for a while. The role of freeplay has been much discussed in HEMA, and there are ways to integrate it successfully into a robust curriculum. www.armizare.org/measuring-success-in-freeplay-competition/
Personally I feel some free play is necessary, if for no other reason than to help the student work on basics like distance and timing. Sometimes it may help to have an element of structure in the free play, but the point still stands that if all they do is drills they won't ever be training their minds to adapt quickly to the principals of the techniques rather than just trying to do techniques with rote memory.
You are brave to put your training out on the internet while still being novices. I think it shows that you are eager to learn. The only advice I feel confident enough to give you would be to perhaps start engaging from a slightly greater distance?
Our club believes it's important to learn from peer review, so we post our videos online and share them in HEMA groups. Our latest video is here, and you should be able to see some improvement. th-cam.com/video/g7okbn9O5W0/w-d-xo.html&list=PL1dk0JFd-dowUc9PX7F1AtID891VM87qY
The part which says that foot precedes weapon can be misunderstood because the body and the sword must be moved at the same time to give enough strength and inertia to the weapon
Would you be able to give a quick run-down of the different styles (where they're similar, where they differ) for me please? I tried to get a feel for both different styles, but it was hard to do with very little knowledge of what I was looking at. Is one style more aggressive and the other more passive/defensive? Do they focus on different things? It seemed like the German fighter was initially more aggressive - launching and pressing more attacks than the Italian - but that might have been more to do with skill than the nature of his preferred school, and it might even have been simply so that each side could take a turn at attacking, for demonstrative purposes. I noticed that the Italian seemed to favour a low guard at the beginning, and then switched into a higher guard matching the German-style fighter, is a low guard also a trait of Italian swordsmanship? I'm just looking for a bit of context for both styles, especially in terms of "A person with this kind of temperament would be suited to this style" (if that's even a thing!)
Since at this stage we were both such novices, this is not a good video to use when interpreting the German and Italian styles. However, it is true as a general rule that German longsword strategy which was taught for use in civilian and judicial duels, was more aggressive than Italian longsword strategy which was taught for use in war. When you're fighting a duel you only have to concern yourself with defeating one person, and you're not going to be attacked by anyone else, so you can take more risks. Additionally, civilian duels may not always have been fought to the death. In contrast, on the battlefield you can expect no mercy and you will be attacked by many opponents (sometimes all at once). This means protecting yourself is your first priority, and conserving your stamina is your second. Consequently the Italian strategy for using longsword on the battlefield tends to be more conservative. In actual fact both German and Italian styles have very similar guards; the German high guard ochs is a lot like the Italian high guard finestra, the German middle guard plfug is a lot like the Italian middle guard posta di dente zenchiaro mezana, the German low guard alber is a lot like the Italian low guard dente di zenghiaro, and the German guard vom tag is a lot like the Italian guard posta di donna.
Wonderful video! I've been trying to visualise Liechtenauer vs Fiore longsword for a while now, trying to see Liechtenauer's principle of always engaging first deliver some results, and was very pleased to find that whenever the fencer on the right struck first, he won :D Can we hope for a rematch after Kevin gets to practise Fiore a bit more?
Yeah it's tricky to estimate how long people need to read. I sort of figured people would use the pause button if they wanted the captions to stay onscreen longer.
the white-collared fencer does not react to attacks. I have never seen anyone from the Fiore dei Liberi school stand still without launching a counterattack. But maybe I've never seen it from any other fencing school.
This was a pretty nice duel. However, it kinda sucks that there wasn't an in depth analysis and/or discussion of the main differences between German and Italian longsword fighting. Still pretty good overall :)
That would have been good, but at this very early stage neither of us really knew very much about either German or Italian longsword. Additionally, in the HEMA community the issue of those differences is hotly debated. Some people say the differences are insignificant, some people say they are very distinctive. Even now, years later, I don't know enough to comment sensibly on the topic. Thanks for the compliment on our bout, it really wasn't great because neither of us were very good at that stage.
Not really. It wasn't a strong hit and fortunately it didn't actually connect with anything too fragile (inside of thigh). But by that stage were were both really hot and tired, since the temperature was in the 30s and our jackets were stifling.
Fiore, but I'm pretty terrible at it at the moment, and I dabble a bit in Liechtenauer. I started by reading Guy Windsors books. Now I've moved on to reading the translated Il Fior di Battglia pdf file you can get on wiktenauer.
The main issue I can see is a lack of regular practice. Spend a hour a day practising on a wooden man, pell or other static target to become comfortable with delivering strikes, become intuitively aware of your reach, and to get you into the mindset of striking. You are spending too much time thinking about your opponent which allows them to strike first and control the fight thereafter. Your plan in the fight is to defeat the opponent, not to defend or strike. Eventually you will only think about patterns, flow and openings; tactics and strategy rather than the mechanics of strikes, steps and wards. You must present a threat to your opponent or they will be eager to advance and take leadership of the fight.
To be fair, Kevin hasn't had much opportunity to spar with others this year at all. I've had far more practice, sometimes twice a week with an opponent, and often three or four times a week just by myself.
I think you guys should work more on the footwork. To me you seem to find yourselves too close to each other, and you can see that even looking at the treatise images you show in the video itself. I'm telling you this because footwork was and is also one of my greater problems, and I know how it can effect the techniques.
Yeah I called out the footwork several times in this video. The fact is this video was shot nearly six months ago, when both of us were total novices and I in particular only had about six months of very occasional training (sometimes two weeks between training sessions). You should be able to see some improvement in this much later video. th-cam.com/video/g7okbn9O5W0/w-d-xo.html&list=PL1dk0JFd-dowUc9PX7F1AtID891VM87qY
But fiore is known for its parries and footwork not this while lichtenauer or meyer is more on the offensive. Also you forgot fiore's plays of the sword grapples and disarms.
As the video description explains, both of these students are beginners. Both of them had very little training, and neither of them had even sparred before (though several of Fiore's guards are used, as shown). Neither of them knew anything about grappling or disarms. They didn't forget them, they simply had no experience with them. In our club no one would be permitted to do grappling as a beginner. Beginners cannot use skills which take many months to learn.
That's because the person concerned was a beginner with hardly any experience or training in Italian longsword. People usually don't perform well when they're beginners. That's why we train.
Yeah that's what beginners do. That's the kind of fencing you can expect from someone who is sparring for the first time. This is low quality fencing because the participants were beginners.
When you are in ochs on the left, your wrists are not crossed. Regardless, it's referred to commonly as a "high guard" because it's a guard which is placed high, to protect your head. 1. Michael G. Thomas, The Fighting Man's Guide to German Longsword Combat (2008). 2. sca.uwaterloo.ca/stmartin/eaod/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/04/Meyer_Class_Notes_-_Giovanni.pdf 3. www.learn-sword-fighting.com/en/guard-of-ochs.html 4. meyerfreescholars.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/June2016_Lehrling_1_Syllabus.pdf
Okay, ignore the crossed wrists, High Guard is still blade pointed back, over your shoulder, while Ox (Or ochs, which is German for Ox) is reverse-high guard. With the blade pointed at the opponenet. It's A High Guard, which is what I said, but reversed, from what people call HG. For Clarity. So people know what you're talking about. Thanks for your in depth reply, though. Most people don't go to the trouble.
The guard you refer to with the blade pointed back over your shoulder (like Fiore's Posta di Donna), is just one of the variants of Vom Tag. This guard is represented with several different positions in the sources, and "blade pointed back over your shoulder" is only one of them. 1. Ringeck describes a low Vom Tag and a high Vom Tag. The low Vom Tag holds the sword vertically (not over the shoulder), with the hands low. “Stand with your left foot forward and hold your sword at the side of your right shoulder or above your head with your arms extended". 2. Von Danzig describes a low Vom Tag and a high Vom Tag. “Hold your sword either at your right shoulder or with your arms stretched high over your head with your left foot forward". 3. Lew describes describes a low Vom Tag with the flat, and and a high Vom Tag. 4. Paurnfeindt describes three versions of a high Vom Tag. 5. Mair describes two versions of a high Vom Tag, and one version of a low Vom Tag. 6. The Glasgow Fechtbuch describes a low Vom Tag with the sword held vertically, as is common in HEMA today. hroarr.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/vom-tag-420px-E_1939_65_341_10r.jpg?x76772 Regardless, in the video the term "high guard" is being used not as a formal term to describe Ochs ("The High Guard"), but simply as a reference to the kind of guard it is. As I've pointed out, Ochs is commonly referred to as a high guard in HEMA (see the sources I provided), simply because it protects the head.
Thanks for the detailed explanation! Turns out I've been calling Vom Tam "High Guard" and that's a lot better for clarity. To differentiate HG from the other HGs. Again, thanks a lot. Very informative, especially the sources (Some of which I can look up online, others I can't.) I was mostly differentiating between A HG (Ox) and The High Guard, not realizing it was called Vom Tag. That translates to From Day, right? I like to use the English translations for clarity too, since the German lessons distract from learning the techniques. (Fortunately, Ochts, and Ox are pretty much pronounced the same, but there has been confusion with Acht, for 8.)
Basically, because of the Instructional nature of the video lessons, Clarity is very important. Since swordplay is confusing enough. Incidentally, I'm not HEMA. I use HEMA, as well as a lot of other sources, because they're tried and true techniques distilled from centuries of warfare. However, I'm not a Historian, I'm homeless, and scrap metal for money, I can't afford to be a historian. I can learn from you, however. Thanks again.
It doesn't have to. Entering with a blow closes the opponent's lines of attack, providing you with protection while you gain distance. You will note that I managed to close the distance with that first strike, and then hit the opponent with my second. This is how Roland Warzecha describes it. "While I cannot reach him with my blow, I have managed to get much closer to the target." th-cam.com/video/nd0D4u4Aeks/w-d-xo.htmlm47s
Lionheart Historical European Swordsmanship Thank you for educating me. So in Meyer terms you steal the Zufechten even though you were out of distance.
As we note in the video description, both fighters were inexperienced beginners. Neither of them were very good, so the poor level of sparring is not surprising.
Not a fair comparison, since the Italian fencer was pretty much just defending and letting the German attacker do whatever he wanted. Either he's inexperienced, or he's letting the German fighter perfect his forms.
As we note in the video description, both fighters were very inexperienced beginners. They had less than a year of experience between them, and neither of them knew very much about what to do. This was their first actual sparring session. This is not represented as a historically accurate depiction of an encounter between these two systems. We're surprised that this is overwhelmingly our most viewed video, despite the fact that it's so short, it's a video of two beginners, and it was uploaded over three years ago.
The name of the video is...misleading. Not many italian techniques afaics and if one or both are beginners then they cannot really be said to represent the styles as the name suggests.
The title isn't misleading since it describes accurately the techniques the combatants are learning and attempting to put into practice. The fact that the techniques aren't very well executed at this point since the combatants are beginners, doesn't change this. The video doesn't claim that this is a quality representation of German and Italian longsword, and the description states explicitly that the combatants are novices.
Why turn around after striking opponent? Because we were only sparring to first strike. We weren't fencing at full speed or full intensity. This was a low level sparring exercise, just to practice some plays.
Lionheart Historical European Swordsmanship ok thanks for the response. I personally never even sparring turn my back to my opponent. Personally, I don't want to create a bad habit. I've seen this with other martial arts as well. It's the military training background in me.. : -) Thanks for the response
That's because we were just fencing casually, and he hadn't fenced for a number of months. I was a beginner and he was way out of practice. If you look at more recent videos on our channel you can see us fencing at a higher level. th-cam.com/video/Uqv0v9QJiyQ/w-d-xo.html
The Fiore fencer has no confidence and is afraid. These are aren't beginners are they? With steel feders I would hope they aren't but the skill level seems severely unbalanced. German fighter is much better in his technique than the Italian. Fiore fighter is afraid and seems either to have no knowledge of counters or the fluidity of Italian LongSword technique. I only saw Fiore fighter present 2-3 guard positions; his form was ape-ish and his sword work was as though he's working from sword fights she's seen in movies. German fighter appeared much more knowledge and refined in his technique. It looks like two German fighters and one is making a bad attempt at Italian style.
Yes they are both beginners; neither of them had even 8 months of experience. Additionally, neither of them had much experience with actual contact sparring before this; maybe three or four bouts. This is extremely basic level sparring by two people who have had almost no sparring experience at all. You should be able to see some improvement in this much later video. th-cam.com/video/P5_EcBev2Z8/w-d-xo.html
I'm not sure why you would think it was bad form. They both had around six months of training with steel swords (drills, but not contact sparring), prior to this. In our club people are trained with steel swords for a long time before they are allowed to have their first contact sparring. Then, when they have their first contact sparring, we believe they should be using the same steel weapons they have been training with. People have to progress from training to combat at some point, or there is no purpose to the training. If people who have never sparred before should never be allowed to start sparring, then no one will ever progress to sparring at all. People's early, beginner bouts are typically clumsy, and this is no exception. We uploaded them so we have a public record of progress, which we think is important.
Neither can parry at all. What is the point if both get hit every attack. I don't think this Hema shit represents reality because everyone could be dead in less than 5 seconds. At the lack of effort. This is truly shit.
What do you expect from two people with mere months of training? This is what beginners look like. If you want to see high quality HEMA combat, there are plenty of places you can find it.
watch the tournaments. They go as fast as it would be in real combat and stop once someone gets hit properly and thus "dies". Everyone starts somewhere. and be patient
Two tempi is definitely suboptimal (though it is still real swordsmanship; there are plenty of two tempi plays). But that's what happens when you've only had a few months of training. These are beginners, not veterans.
I did not mean to sound like a dick. I was just trying to reference Didier in order to help where he talked about how you know you're qualified to teach if you can demonstrate techniques in one timing and teach them that way.
I can't really see much Fiore going on here. The 'Italian' fencer just seems to be a worse fencer than the German.
says in the description less than a year of experience so he still a novice
Yeah I noticed that afterward and feel kind of bad. I don't think someone who has been training that long should be doing freeplay - it's a good way to open up bad habits.
Freeplay can certainly reinforce bad habits, but it has its place. Our training methodology has three parts. 1. Research, reading historical material and watching videos. 2. Training, drilling and sparring. 3. Cutting, using sharps to cut tatami to test edge alignment and posture. A small amount of freeplay is very useful in order for students to test what they have learned in drilling. If beginners aren't given some opportunity to practice in a non-predictable environment, they just learn set patterns of actions and never learn how to use them in real combat. They end up sparring as if they're simply doing drills, and then they can't figure out why it isn't working. Freeplay is a useful way of identifying bad habits, which is why we use it. But we use it very sparingly. We have students who have been with us for three months who haven't done any freeplay yet, and won't for a while. The role of freeplay has been much discussed in HEMA, and there are ways to integrate it successfully into a robust curriculum.
www.armizare.org/measuring-success-in-freeplay-competition/
Personally I feel some free play is necessary, if for no other reason than to help the student work on basics like distance and timing. Sometimes it may help to have an element of structure in the free play, but the point still stands that if all they do is drills they won't ever be training their minds to adapt quickly to the principals of the techniques rather than just trying to do techniques with rote memory.
People don't really do "free play" or even "light sparring" with only leather gloves to protect their hands.
More like a drill video.
Thanks for the slow-mo recaps and notes; I wish those were present in more fencing videos!
You're welcome, we find it really useful to break down the action and analyze it for our own learning.
You are brave to put your training out on the internet while still being novices. I think it shows that you are eager to learn. The only advice I feel confident enough to give you would be to perhaps start engaging from a slightly greater distance?
Our club believes it's important to learn from peer review, so we post our videos online and share them in HEMA groups. Our latest video is here, and you should be able to see some improvement.
th-cam.com/video/g7okbn9O5W0/w-d-xo.html&list=PL1dk0JFd-dowUc9PX7F1AtID891VM87qY
Thank you, and good on you to take the aporoach you do!
I love that there's a slow motion replay with detailed explanation of what's going on
Thanks, we added that specifically for the benefit of both HEMA people and non-HEMA people.
Lionheart Historical European Swordsmanship thank you
I like italian more, not in general but fiore.
What a beautiful art.
very informative. thank you for making a video
You're welcome, I'm glad you found it helpful.
The part which says that foot precedes weapon can be misunderstood because the body and the sword must be moved at the same time to give enough strength and inertia to the weapon
Would you be able to give a quick run-down of the different styles (where they're similar, where they differ) for me please? I tried to get a feel for both different styles, but it was hard to do with very little knowledge of what I was looking at. Is one style more aggressive and the other more passive/defensive? Do they focus on different things? It seemed like the German fighter was initially more aggressive - launching and pressing more attacks than the Italian - but that might have been more to do with skill than the nature of his preferred school, and it might even have been simply so that each side could take a turn at attacking, for demonstrative purposes. I noticed that the Italian seemed to favour a low guard at the beginning, and then switched into a higher guard matching the German-style fighter, is a low guard also a trait of Italian swordsmanship? I'm just looking for a bit of context for both styles, especially in terms of "A person with this kind of temperament would be suited to this style" (if that's even a thing!)
Since at this stage we were both such novices, this is not a good video to use when interpreting the German and Italian styles. However, it is true as a general rule that German longsword strategy which was taught for use in civilian and judicial duels, was more aggressive than Italian longsword strategy which was taught for use in war. When you're fighting a duel you only have to concern yourself with defeating one person, and you're not going to be attacked by anyone else, so you can take more risks. Additionally, civilian duels may not always have been fought to the death. In contrast, on the battlefield you can expect no mercy and you will be attacked by many opponents (sometimes all at once). This means protecting yourself is your first priority, and conserving your stamina is your second. Consequently the Italian strategy for using longsword on the battlefield tends to be more conservative. In actual fact both German and Italian styles have very similar guards; the German high guard ochs is a lot like the Italian high guard finestra, the German middle guard plfug is a lot like the Italian middle guard posta di dente zenchiaro mezana, the German low guard alber is a lot like the Italian low guard dente di zenghiaro, and the German guard vom tag is a lot like the Italian guard posta di donna.
Wonderful video!
I've been trying to visualise Liechtenauer vs Fiore longsword for a while now, trying to see Liechtenauer's principle of always engaging first deliver some results, and was very pleased to find that whenever the fencer on the right struck first, he won :D
Can we hope for a rematch after Kevin gets to practise Fiore a bit more?
Definitely!
Neat, I love the captioning! It would be helpful if captions stayed visible longer. I had to rewind and pause often to read the notes
Yeah it's tricky to estimate how long people need to read. I sort of figured people would use the pause button if they wanted the captions to stay onscreen longer.
I still can't figure out where all the hits on this video are coming from. Can you send me a link?
the white-collared fencer does not react to attacks. I have never seen anyone from the Fiore dei Liberi school stand still without launching a counterattack.
But maybe I've never seen it from any other fencing school.
I love l'art d'armizare for how it looks, but the german style is more efficient, it seems.
This was a pretty nice duel. However, it kinda sucks that there wasn't an in depth analysis and/or discussion of the main differences between German and Italian longsword fighting. Still pretty good overall :)
That would have been good, but at this very early stage neither of us really knew very much about either German or Italian longsword. Additionally, in the HEMA community the issue of those differences is hotly debated. Some people say the differences are insignificant, some people say they are very distinctive. Even now, years later, I don't know enough to comment sensibly on the topic. Thanks for the compliment on our bout, it really wasn't great because neither of us were very good at that stage.
4.39 always protect the crown jewels lads!!! is it a coincidence that the movie ends after that particular hit?
Not really. It wasn't a strong hit and fortunately it didn't actually connect with anything too fragile (inside of thigh). But by that stage were were both really hot and tired, since the temperature was in the 30s and our jackets were stifling.
That groin strike xD
Just as well it wasn't too hard, because he didn't have a protector (I wasn't aware of that at the time).
Good to know!
For the Italian fencer- are you studying Vadi or Fiore?
Fiore, but I'm pretty terrible at it at the moment, and I dabble a bit in Liechtenauer.
I started by reading Guy Windsors books.
Now I've moved on to reading the translated Il Fior di Battglia pdf file you can get on wiktenauer.
The main issue I can see is a lack of regular practice. Spend a hour a day practising on a wooden man, pell or other static target to become comfortable with delivering strikes, become intuitively aware of your reach, and to get you into the mindset of striking. You are spending too much time thinking about your opponent which allows them to strike first and control the fight thereafter. Your plan in the fight is to defeat the opponent, not to defend or strike. Eventually you will only think about patterns, flow and openings; tactics and strategy rather than the mechanics of strikes, steps and wards.
You must present a threat to your opponent or they will be eager to advance and take leadership of the fight.
To be fair, Kevin hasn't had much opportunity to spar with others this year at all. I've had far more practice, sometimes twice a week with an opponent, and often three or four times a week just by myself.
step 1 master Posta di donna
step 2 attack with Fendeni from Posta di donna
step 3 profit
Good video, specially the slow mo with notes... but the italian style user seems to be sleeping
It was over 30 degrees and we were both really hot. We didn't have much energy for fast motion.
I think you guys should work more on the footwork. To me you seem to find yourselves too close to each other, and you can see that even looking at the treatise images you show in the video itself. I'm telling you this because footwork was and is also one of my greater problems, and I know how it can effect the techniques.
Yeah I called out the footwork several times in this video. The fact is this video was shot nearly six months ago, when both of us were total novices and I in particular only had about six months of very occasional training (sometimes two weeks between training sessions). You should be able to see some improvement in this much later video.
th-cam.com/video/g7okbn9O5W0/w-d-xo.html&list=PL1dk0JFd-dowUc9PX7F1AtID891VM87qY
thank you, I'll watch it
But fiore is known for its parries and footwork not this while lichtenauer or meyer is more on the offensive. Also you forgot fiore's plays of the sword grapples and disarms.
As the video description explains, both of these students are beginners. Both of them had very little training, and neither of them had even sparred before (though several of Fiore's guards are used, as shown). Neither of them knew anything about grappling or disarms. They didn't forget them, they simply had no experience with them. In our club no one would be permitted to do grappling as a beginner. Beginners cannot use skills which take many months to learn.
The "Italian" guard is some odd thing between falcone and woman's guard, but with none of the advantages of either...
That's because the person concerned was a beginner with hardly any experience or training in Italian longsword. People usually don't perform well when they're beginners. That's why we train.
Italian fencer : "If I hold my sword in front of me the other dude will kill himself on it"
Yeah that's what beginners do. That's the kind of fencing you can expect from someone who is sparring for the first time. This is low quality fencing because the participants were beginners.
Ox isn't High Guard, it's a reversed (Crossed wrists) High Guard.
When you are in ochs on the left, your wrists are not crossed. Regardless, it's referred to commonly as a "high guard" because it's a guard which is placed high, to protect your head.
1. Michael G. Thomas, The Fighting Man's Guide to German Longsword Combat (2008).
2. sca.uwaterloo.ca/stmartin/eaod/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/04/Meyer_Class_Notes_-_Giovanni.pdf
3. www.learn-sword-fighting.com/en/guard-of-ochs.html
4. meyerfreescholars.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/June2016_Lehrling_1_Syllabus.pdf
Okay, ignore the crossed wrists, High Guard is still blade pointed back, over your shoulder, while Ox (Or ochs, which is German for Ox) is reverse-high guard. With the blade pointed at the opponenet. It's A High Guard, which is what I said, but reversed, from what people call HG. For Clarity. So people know what you're talking about. Thanks for your in depth reply, though. Most people don't go to the trouble.
The guard you refer to with the blade pointed back over your shoulder (like Fiore's Posta di Donna), is just one of the variants of Vom Tag. This guard is represented with several different positions in the sources, and "blade pointed back over your shoulder" is only one of them.
1. Ringeck describes a low Vom Tag and a high Vom Tag. The low Vom Tag holds the sword vertically (not over the shoulder), with the hands low. “Stand with your left foot forward and hold your sword at the side of your right shoulder or above your head with your arms extended".
2. Von Danzig describes a low Vom Tag and a high Vom Tag. “Hold your sword either at your right shoulder or with your arms stretched high over your head with your left foot forward".
3. Lew describes describes a low Vom Tag with the flat, and and a high Vom Tag.
4. Paurnfeindt describes three versions of a high Vom Tag.
5. Mair describes two versions of a high Vom Tag, and one version of a low Vom Tag.
6. The Glasgow Fechtbuch describes a low Vom Tag with the sword held vertically, as is common in HEMA today.
hroarr.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/vom-tag-420px-E_1939_65_341_10r.jpg?x76772
Regardless, in the video the term "high guard" is being used not as a formal term to describe Ochs ("The High Guard"), but simply as a reference to the kind of guard it is. As I've pointed out, Ochs is commonly referred to as a high guard in HEMA (see the sources I provided), simply because it protects the head.
Thanks for the detailed explanation! Turns out I've been calling Vom Tam "High Guard" and that's a lot better for clarity. To differentiate HG from the other HGs. Again, thanks a lot. Very informative, especially the sources (Some of which I can look up online, others I can't.) I was mostly differentiating between A HG (Ox) and The High Guard, not realizing it was called Vom Tag. That translates to From Day, right? I like to use the English translations for clarity too, since the German lessons distract from learning the techniques. (Fortunately, Ochts, and Ox are pretty much pronounced the same, but there has been confusion with Acht, for 8.)
Basically, because of the Instructional nature of the video lessons, Clarity is very important. Since swordplay is confusing enough. Incidentally, I'm not HEMA. I use HEMA, as well as a lot of other sources, because they're tried and true techniques distilled from centuries of warfare. However, I'm not a Historian, I'm homeless, and scrap metal for money, I can't afford to be a historian. I can learn from you, however. Thanks again.
First strike wouldnt have even landed if the defender didnt move...
It doesn't have to. Entering with a blow closes the opponent's lines of attack, providing you with protection while you gain distance. You will note that I managed to close the distance with that first strike, and then hit the opponent with my second. This is how Roland Warzecha describes it.
"While I cannot reach him with my blow, I have managed to get much closer to the target."
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Lionheart Historical European Swordsmanship Thank you for educating me. So in Meyer terms you steal the Zufechten even though you were out of distance.
Judicial78 yes that's a good way to put it.
The german style guy needs to work on locking his elbows in some of his guards
Итальянец немного сонный.
Italian is in a sleep
As we note in the video description, both fighters were inexperienced beginners. Neither of them were very good, so the poor level of sparring is not surprising.
Not a fair comparison, since the Italian fencer was pretty much just defending and letting the German attacker do whatever he wanted. Either he's inexperienced, or he's letting the German fighter perfect his forms.
As we note in the video description, both fighters were very inexperienced beginners. They had less than a year of experience between them, and neither of them knew very much about what to do. This was their first actual sparring session. This is not represented as a historically accurate depiction of an encounter between these two systems. We're surprised that this is overwhelmingly our most viewed video, despite the fact that it's so short, it's a video of two beginners, and it was uploaded over three years ago.
The name of the video is...misleading. Not many italian techniques afaics and if one or both are beginners then they cannot really be said to represent the styles as the name suggests.
The title isn't misleading since it describes accurately the techniques the combatants are learning and attempting to put into practice. The fact that the techniques aren't very well executed at this point since the combatants are beginners, doesn't change this. The video doesn't claim that this is a quality representation of German and Italian longsword, and the description states explicitly that the combatants are novices.
Why turn around after striking opponent? Never do that. Not sport
Why turn around after striking opponent? Because we were only sparring to first strike. We weren't fencing at full speed or full intensity. This was a low level sparring exercise, just to practice some plays.
Lionheart Historical European Swordsmanship ok thanks for the response. I personally never even sparring turn my back to my opponent. Personally, I don't want to create a bad habit. I've seen this with other martial arts as well. It's the military training background in me.. : -)
Thanks for the response
the guy to the right seems just too slow and poorly reactive
That's because we were just fencing casually, and he hadn't fenced for a number of months. I was a beginner and he was way out of practice. If you look at more recent videos on our channel you can see us fencing at a higher level.
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The Fiore fencer has no confidence and is afraid. These are aren't beginners are they? With steel feders I would hope they aren't but the skill level seems severely unbalanced. German fighter is much better in his technique than the Italian. Fiore fighter is afraid and seems either to have no knowledge of counters or the fluidity of Italian LongSword technique. I only saw Fiore fighter present 2-3 guard positions; his form was ape-ish and his sword work was as though he's working from sword fights she's seen in movies. German fighter appeared much more knowledge and refined in his technique. It looks like two German fighters and one is making a bad attempt at Italian style.
Yes they are both beginners; neither of them had even 8 months of experience. Additionally, neither of them had much experience with actual contact sparring before this; maybe three or four bouts. This is extremely basic level sparring by two people who have had almost no sparring experience at all. You should be able to see some improvement in this much later video.
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Lionheart Historical European Swordsmanship yet you allowed them steel swords? Bad form.
I'm not sure why you would think it was bad form. They both had around six months of training with steel swords (drills, but not contact sparring), prior to this. In our club people are trained with steel swords for a long time before they are allowed to have their first contact sparring. Then, when they have their first contact sparring, we believe they should be using the same steel weapons they have been training with. People have to progress from training to combat at some point, or there is no purpose to the training. If people who have never sparred before should never be allowed to start sparring, then no one will ever progress to sparring at all.
People's early, beginner bouts are typically clumsy, and this is no exception. We uploaded them so we have a public record of progress, which we think is important.
Neither can parry at all. What is the point if both get hit every attack. I don't think this Hema shit represents reality because everyone could be dead in less than 5 seconds. At the lack of effort. This is truly shit.
What do you expect from two people with mere months of training? This is what beginners look like. If you want to see high quality HEMA combat, there are plenty of places you can find it.
watch the tournaments. They go as fast as it would be in real combat and stop once someone gets hit properly and thus "dies". Everyone starts somewhere. and be patient
duo tempo is lame. Not real swordsmanship.
Two tempi is definitely suboptimal (though it is still real swordsmanship; there are plenty of two tempi plays). But that's what happens when you've only had a few months of training. These are beginners, not veterans.
I did not mean to sound like a dick. I was just trying to reference Didier in order to help where he talked about how you know you're qualified to teach if you can demonstrate techniques in one timing and teach them that way.
That's fair enough. At this point neither of was sufficiently skilled to teach.