This was so interesting! Of course I had thought about certain expressions that are hard to translate into another language. But now it seems like a small problem compared to all the other things translators need to take into account. In the past, I've gone out of my way to read books in the original language when I could. But now, I think it would be a good idea to also spend money on translations :) Thank you for your insights!
I'm glad you thought so! Yes, I definitely recommend using your purchasing power to help the art of translation, especially if you're buying from indie publishing presses that focus on translation, they really rely on lots of external funding to help support their business and it can make such a difference when more people buy from them!
Well this was fascinating. I enjoyed Britta's original video and you can really feel her frustration as an author, but it's good to hear more of the translators' perspective. When I read a translated work I tend to give the original author the benefit if the doubt if there's anything in the style that I don't like, but I hadn't really thought about works being unedited previously or edited so heavily after translation - it seems like a disservice to the original text, but then if it enables us to read something that wouldn't otherwise be published then it's more of a mixed blessing.
I think it's all so interesting given how different ideals of novel structures and expectations of book cultures can vary so much from place to place and cause big ripples further down the line during the translation process. For me personally, I find it helps to read the translation as though it were something slightly separated from the original, it's never going to be the exact same so I view it more as a collaborative artefact designed for a different purpose and audience than what came before!
Excellent video, Matthew! One thing that bothers me is when English people say something like, for example, "I like Banana Yoshimoto's writing style," I'm not sure is it her writing style or the translator's writing style they like. I was involved in translating two Famous Five novels into Finnish for some anniversary release. It was a student project, and we had to do a modern translation - but not too modern, if you know what I mean... Also, in the earlier translation, all the names were localized into Finnish names, and we were forced to use those. There were some things that we couldn't translate 'as such' because the readership today especially in a non-English context wouldn't understand their meanings. We also had an editor, and the another deciding character somewhere at the publisher. Not sure if you said it and I happened to just miss it, but translator's also need to do a lot of research. Like, when translating some nautical fiction they might have to research how ships work and figure out the right vocabulary, or research a bit about the common daily habits of early 20th century English people just so you understand what you're actually translating. One thing that comes to mind, relating back to the Famous Five novels, is when people say they're going to have some tea. Depending on the context and speaker, that "tea" can either mean just the drink or it can the dinner you'd have somewhere around 5 o'clock. I'd like to paraphrase one of my teachers (an oldish American guy): "You don't learn to translate by studying it, you learn to translate by doing it." Anyone can become a translator if they just have enough skill in the languages they're using, no formal translation education is necessary. Even an "amateur" can translate if they have passion or high interest in the subject/text they want to translate. Finally, I'd like to add, Swedish is also spoken in Finland, to some extent. It is our second official language, so everyone should know some of it. There are some Swedish speakers in the coastal area, all the way from west to south. And we also have a minority group, Finlandsvenska (Tove Jansson, the creator of Moomins, was one of these), who travel somewhere between the two languages. The remark about small language group hits painfully close to home. Our language is very niche in global scale. Our literary market is small and expensive - I'd much rather buy an English translation of, say, Don Quixote for 5 euros than pay 40 euros for the Finnish translation; then my favourite example, buy The Once and Future King in the original language for 10 euros or buy the Finnish translation for 50 euros. Like you said, translating can be expensive, and that leads to books being expensive if the buying audience is small.
Thanks so much for this lovely rich comment! Yes, I didn't talk about the research aspect in the video, I had to cut it down, but there's some very interesting experiences of translator's who do their research, some like to tie the research into their visits to the places they're translating from, others have to do completely different kinds of research when they can't access the place or the culture in any physical way. And it's super interesting how they provide this sort of knowledge through their translation in creative and skilled ways. Anyone can become a translator yes, but it's so much harder to then actually become a professional translator and get paid!
I think getting a bigger picture and not rely on simply one experience, mostly the one you're personally most familiar with, is key in so many aspects of life and therefor in the literary field as well. And I think if we want to call something art, we also have to give it enough space for artistic freedom. I personally feel like as creators we need to get away from that sense of complete ownership of our works once there out there, because really if we just want to keep it ours and neatly the exact same we as creators want it we're leaving no space for interpretation and then we're just creating for ourselves
I definitely think there's a lot of scope for such a broad range of ideas about art in this context, and it's always a breath of fresh air to gather different perspectives - it's very easy to convince yourself that your own aesthetic values are just the norm, I know I definitely fall into this trap very often! Haha I think it's scary to imagine something you've created going out into the world and being misinterpreted or misrepresented, but I also think that's where a lot of the power of art comes from too!
I've said many times that I don't think I read enough translated fiction to comment. I learned more about the process from a video with the translators and writer of The Eighth Life on Eric Karl Anderson's channel. Whilst I don't know anything of the Georgian language, it did end up being one of my favourite books of the year. I know there are a few poetry journals in the UK where poets can submit pieces they have translated from other languages, and have always imagined how difficult that must be in terms of not just making it understandable, but get the tone right as well as making it have some sort of rhythm in keeping with the original. There have been instances when I've felt that a translator has allowed too much of their own voice to colour a work - this has only happened recently with the Jo Nesbo books, in which there are expressions I can only think of an American context so to read them in something primarily Norwegian didn't make sense. I think it must be quite a difficult process to translate something into English and make it universal.
It's always nice to hear your comments though! Yes, I couldn't even begin to fathom the art and craft that goes into translating poetry, that must be sooo difficult, so I'm absolutely impressed by those who even try haha. For sure, I'm still on the fence about whether or not we should be universalising English for the translations or not, it can certainly be jarring when you read a Norwegian text but then suddenly see American idioms, I think there needs to be a balance that makes it work somehow.
Hi Charlie, as far as I know The Eighth Life has been translated from German. Please correct me if I'm wrong. The author was born in Georgia, but lives in Germany and also writes in German, I think.
Really enjoyed this discussion. To hear the massive editing examples you gave that might occur to make a work more palatable for a general English speaking audience was pretty eye-opening. I think I tend to agree with you that the final product belongs more to the translator than is the current reality. I might disagree a bit with you on the absolutist point of there being no "good" translation. There must be ways to determine a good translation, no? If one gets an education in translation specifically, are you not learning how to be a "good" translator and not just the logistics of the job? What is the pressure you talk among the translator community if there isn't a standard to rise to to have a "good" translation? Yes it's a subjective interpretation and the translations will all be different and much of it comes down to taste, but still I would argue though difficult it is still achievable to find things that make a good translation. What those things are would be a whole other debate.
Yes I totally see what you mean here, I think in my heart, there can be no "objectively good" translation. Everything will be subjective and so to define an art object as good or not can only be achieved at a personal level, because what's good for one person may not be good for someone else. And perhaps if literary prizes that judge translations actually are transparent about what they deem makes a good translation, then I'd be a lot more inclined to support them. For example, if they said "we are looking for a translation that plays with language in a literary way, comes across as a fluent translation, and demonstrates a skill in portraying another culture in the English language" then I would know the parameters and be able to "judge" how well the judges then decide on a good translation within those structures.
@@mcs-books9075 That would be amazing if literary prizes were that transparent and more importantly specific with their criteria for awarding prizes. Your examples are perfect starting points for what I think might be the kinds of things I would consider a "good" translation.
I am always impressed how many thoughts and preparation you put into your videos, Matthew! Thanks for the efforts you put into your channel.
this was another great video Matthew excellent work I am proud of you
Thank you so much!
This was so interesting! Of course I had thought about certain expressions that are hard to translate into another language. But now it seems like a small problem compared to all the other things translators need to take into account. In the past, I've gone out of my way to read books in the original language when I could. But now, I think it would be a good idea to also spend money on translations :) Thank you for your insights!
I'm glad you thought so!
Yes, I definitely recommend using your purchasing power to help the art of translation, especially if you're buying from indie publishing presses that focus on translation, they really rely on lots of external funding to help support their business and it can make such a difference when more people buy from them!
Well this was fascinating. I enjoyed Britta's original video and you can really feel her frustration as an author, but it's good to hear more of the translators' perspective. When
I read a translated work I tend to give the original author the benefit if the doubt if there's anything in the style that I don't like, but I hadn't really thought about works being unedited previously or edited so heavily after translation - it seems like a disservice to the original text, but then if it enables us to read something that wouldn't otherwise be published then it's more of a mixed blessing.
I think it's all so interesting given how different ideals of novel structures and expectations of book cultures can vary so much from place to place and cause big ripples further down the line during the translation process. For me personally, I find it helps to read the translation as though it were something slightly separated from the original, it's never going to be the exact same so I view it more as a collaborative artefact designed for a different purpose and audience than what came before!
Excellent video, Matthew!
One thing that bothers me is when English people say something like, for example, "I like Banana Yoshimoto's writing style," I'm not sure is it her writing style or the translator's writing style they like.
I was involved in translating two Famous Five novels into Finnish for some anniversary release. It was a student project, and we had to do a modern translation - but not too modern, if you know what I mean... Also, in the earlier translation, all the names were localized into Finnish names, and we were forced to use those. There were some things that we couldn't translate 'as such' because the readership today especially in a non-English context wouldn't understand their meanings. We also had an editor, and the another deciding character somewhere at the publisher.
Not sure if you said it and I happened to just miss it, but translator's also need to do a lot of research. Like, when translating some nautical fiction they might have to research how ships work and figure out the right vocabulary, or research a bit about the common daily habits of early 20th century English people just so you understand what you're actually translating.
One thing that comes to mind, relating back to the Famous Five novels, is when people say they're going to have some tea. Depending on the context and speaker, that "tea" can either mean just the drink or it can the dinner you'd have somewhere around 5 o'clock.
I'd like to paraphrase one of my teachers (an oldish American guy): "You don't learn to translate by studying it, you learn to translate by doing it." Anyone can become a translator if they just have enough skill in the languages they're using, no formal translation education is necessary. Even an "amateur" can translate if they have passion or high interest in the subject/text they want to translate.
Finally, I'd like to add, Swedish is also spoken in Finland, to some extent. It is our second official language, so everyone should know some of it. There are some Swedish speakers in the coastal area, all the way from west to south. And we also have a minority group, Finlandsvenska (Tove Jansson, the creator of Moomins, was one of these), who travel somewhere between the two languages.
The remark about small language group hits painfully close to home. Our language is very niche in global scale. Our literary market is small and expensive - I'd much rather buy an English translation of, say, Don Quixote for 5 euros than pay 40 euros for the Finnish translation; then my favourite example, buy The Once and Future King in the original language for 10 euros or buy the Finnish translation for 50 euros. Like you said, translating can be expensive, and that leads to books being expensive if the buying audience is small.
Thanks so much for this lovely rich comment!
Yes, I didn't talk about the research aspect in the video, I had to cut it down, but there's some very interesting experiences of translator's who do their research, some like to tie the research into their visits to the places they're translating from, others have to do completely different kinds of research when they can't access the place or the culture in any physical way. And it's super interesting how they provide this sort of knowledge through their translation in creative and skilled ways.
Anyone can become a translator yes, but it's so much harder to then actually become a professional translator and get paid!
I think getting a bigger picture and not rely on simply one experience, mostly the one you're personally most familiar with, is key in so many aspects of life and therefor in the literary field as well.
And I think if we want to call something art, we also have to give it enough space for artistic freedom. I personally feel like as creators we need to get away from that sense of complete ownership of our works once there out there, because really if we just want to keep it ours and neatly the exact same we as creators want it we're leaving no space for interpretation and then we're just creating for ourselves
I definitely think there's a lot of scope for such a broad range of ideas about art in this context, and it's always a breath of fresh air to gather different perspectives - it's very easy to convince yourself that your own aesthetic values are just the norm, I know I definitely fall into this trap very often! Haha
I think it's scary to imagine something you've created going out into the world and being misinterpreted or misrepresented, but I also think that's where a lot of the power of art comes from too!
I've said many times that I don't think I read enough translated fiction to comment. I learned more about the process from a video with the translators and writer of The Eighth Life on Eric Karl Anderson's channel. Whilst I don't know anything of the Georgian language, it did end up being one of my favourite books of the year.
I know there are a few poetry journals in the UK where poets can submit pieces they have translated from other languages, and have always imagined how difficult that must be in terms of not just making it understandable, but get the tone right as well as making it have some sort of rhythm in keeping with the original.
There have been instances when I've felt that a translator has allowed too much of their own voice to colour a work - this has only happened recently with the Jo Nesbo books, in which there are expressions I can only think of an American context so to read them in something primarily Norwegian didn't make sense. I think it must be quite a difficult process to translate something into English and make it universal.
It's always nice to hear your comments though!
Yes, I couldn't even begin to fathom the art and craft that goes into translating poetry, that must be sooo difficult, so I'm absolutely impressed by those who even try haha.
For sure, I'm still on the fence about whether or not we should be universalising English for the translations or not, it can certainly be jarring when you read a Norwegian text but then suddenly see American idioms, I think there needs to be a balance that makes it work somehow.
Hi Charlie, as far as I know The Eighth Life has been translated from German. Please correct me if I'm wrong. The author was born in Georgia, but lives in Germany and also writes in German, I think.
fascinating. thanks.
Thank you!
Really enjoyed this discussion. To hear the massive editing examples you gave that might occur to make a work more palatable for a general English speaking audience was pretty eye-opening. I think I tend to agree with you that the final product belongs more to the translator than is the current reality. I might disagree a bit with you on the absolutist point of there being no "good" translation. There must be ways to determine a good translation, no? If one gets an education in translation specifically, are you not learning how to be a "good" translator and not just the logistics of the job? What is the pressure you talk among the translator community if there isn't a standard to rise to to have a "good" translation? Yes it's a subjective interpretation and the translations will all be different and much of it comes down to taste, but still I would argue though difficult it is still achievable to find things that make a good translation. What those things are would be a whole other debate.
Yes I totally see what you mean here, I think in my heart, there can be no "objectively good" translation. Everything will be subjective and so to define an art object as good or not can only be achieved at a personal level, because what's good for one person may not be good for someone else. And perhaps if literary prizes that judge translations actually are transparent about what they deem makes a good translation, then I'd be a lot more inclined to support them. For example, if they said "we are looking for a translation that plays with language in a literary way, comes across as a fluent translation, and demonstrates a skill in portraying another culture in the English language" then I would know the parameters and be able to "judge" how well the judges then decide on a good translation within those structures.
@@mcs-books9075 That would be amazing if literary prizes were that transparent and more importantly specific with their criteria for awarding prizes. Your examples are perfect starting points for what I think might be the kinds of things I would consider a "good" translation.