Very informative - thank you! My old teacher is a black belt under Pedro Sauer (student of Rickson). He told me that the real difference between the two camps was that Helio’s lineage was more “small guy” Jiu-Jitsu, where the Carlos side was rougher, more competitive and more athletic.
@@Ben-fx9kx its hilarious, wild-disrespectful, and gives all kinda clues into their family dynamics because I'm pretty sure what he means by that phrase is "technical" and probably more tied into the original judo teachings 🤣 Families are so petty 🤣🤣🤣
@@elbalsero4428 technical, dude, he meant technical lol. If you just constantly overpower your opponent then congratulations, you will win in street fights but paid your money and time to learn nothing from BJJ
I don't practice Jiu-Jitsu, but I find the family absolutely fascinating. I listened to a long podcast interview with Reila Gracie (Roger Gracie's mother) and it is interesting how close the family was even though they seem to have developed this family rivalry. She talks about how close she was with her Uncle Helio and the numerous interviews she did with him when preparing for her book. It was very interesting.
Great video, great explanation. I've been doing Jiu Jitsu for 19 years now, I am a black belt under Jon Burke (one of Royce's first black belts), and we focus on both the self defense techniques and the sport techniques (self defense first and foremost though). I use to run a Jiu Jitsu tournament, and in my personal opinion, I think it is important to practice all aspects of Gracie/Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (Self Defense, Sport, and MMA grappling). Don't water down the art, don't skimp on any aspect of it, by doing this we keep this art strong for future generations.
This kind of sums up a lot of my feelings as im looking into BJJ from both a practical applicability standpoint re: MMA but also am fascinated by the historical and cultural contexts (hence my finding my way to this video). The idea of people watering down BJJ is very scary to me because its already a subset of a subset. This video (and your comment) are helping me understand that there are even _more_ subsets, and while this is not an issue unique to BJJ, it will prove to be very problematic for something already so insular and specific. TKD and Karate are problematic in their "oversporting" imo - ie: point sparring really detaches you from practical applications - but a TON of BJJ videos here on youtube, while im sure may not be the best or most accurate representation, show people getting hurt by overzealous yet poorly trained grapplers a LOT
Well, after reading a whole lot of comments below I just have to make an observation. I was one of Rorion's first students when he was teaching out of his garage in Redondo Beach, Calif. Royce joined him a short time later as did Rickson. Other than high school and college wrestling, nobody was teaching anything like GJJ. There were all types of judo schools and karate and many other varieties of striking arts and aikido. I was there when Rorion challenged all comers from whatever art form they were involved in. He instructed his students to make challenges on his behalf. I watched as Rorion, Royce and Rickson took on all kinds of black belts from many other art forms. They won all their fights. Eventually Chuck Norris and other martial arts masters were drawn to this "new" art form called "Gracie Jiu Jitsu." Chuck Norris had Rorion and Royce give seminars to his instructors only after they had to take on one of the Gracies. Gradually, the fame of Gracie Jiu Jitsu spread and ultimately Rorion with the aid of some promoters formed the UFC where something almost unheard of was in practice ----weight classes were not present. A 150lb guy might fight a 225 pounder. This was unheard of at the time. The UFC spread the news of Gracie Jiu Jitsu even further. One only has to look around to see how much influence Rorion had as far as GJJ is concerned. It is taught to law enforcement agencies all over the world including elite forces such as the Seals and others. I was a law enforcement officer for 33 years and watched as they developed great techniques for handcuffing, gun take aways, etc. etc. They would analyze a particular situation that police officers get into and come up with workable techniques to assist the officers. I personally don't care if they borrowed something from a thousand years ago or not. They have made a great impact and influence on the American Society and for teaching the weaker in our society how they might have a chance against a larger and more muscular opponent. So knock it all you may want as to its origins, but there was nothing like it being taught in the U.S. until Rorion brought it to the U.S. lo those many years ago. I am not as familiar with the Carlos side of the family, but have met and sparred with a number of Gracies and I have nothing but admiration for their work ethic, their genuine love for and belief in their art. I am sure this is true on the BJJ side of the family as well. All I can say is God bless them all. I met and sparred with Helio several times and words cannot express my admiration for him. I have the deepest respect and admiration for Rorion, Royce and Rickson as well. These are the men I worked with the most. In the days when I was studying with the Gracie's, I had private lessons with them so got to know them very well. I can honestly say, I love them and I wish them all the best now and far into the future.
I recently joined Gracie Barra university here in Honolulu Hawaii with my two boys. I’ve met great people with so much knowledge in Jiu Jitsu. It’s been only 3 weeks. Lot more to learn.
@@michaelbanks2401 I am sad to say that about couple years ago, not very long after joining our coach had to move away from the Island. Since then I have not trained or join another dojo. I’ve enjoyed it and looking forward to training again when that right time comes.
I don’t think it’ll ever unify sadly. I think it will continue like judo: most schools focusing on sport with only a few here and there focusing on the entire art and its self defense applications.
Learning either side will put you well above any untrained person on the street, but one is more comprehensive for competing as a sport, which is the most common use of JJ. You might use it once in your life in self-defense.
First and foremost honor both Grand-masters. I started in the Sports BJJ world not knowing the whole story between BJJ and GJJ. I began competing in local grappling tournaments. I had a friend who invited me to a GJJ school and I was sold. I am Prior military and kind of love street fighting. I found that GJJ has a complete system of fighting. We always start stand up and do a lot of striking and we end classes with ground techniques. We basically learn to fight with no rules where as my old BJJ school we mostly grapple and start on our knees. I have had the opportunity to meet some amazing BJJ Instuctors and I personally had the opportunity to meet Rorion, Royce and Rickson Gracie at our school seminars. In a nutshell, GJJ does focus on self defense! But do not let the term self defense fool you. Our striking class mimics street fighting with gloves and without gloves which incorporates kicks, punches, elbows, take downs and grappling. I believe it depends on what you want to learn. I found that GJJ fits my needs. Much Respect to the whole Gracie Family and always respect the roots. I am a student of Valente Brothers Jiu Jitsu.
As an "older" guy, I have NO interest in learning "sport" techniques or competing. Hats off to the guys and gals that do do tourneys. Perhaps in my younger days.....? So Gracie (Ryron and Rener) Jiu Jitsu is what I LOVE!!! Roll on, Brothers.
I am a Japanese JuJutsu practitioner and I have been really interested in Jiu-Jitsu. This is really enlightening to me, since I had no Idea that there was a difference in how BJJ and GJJ. Please keep spreading the knowledge!
Keep in mind the Gracie's have a vested interest in narrating the history of the art. Count Koma, who taught Carlos Sr, had a school and taught other Brazilians (e.g Luiz França), who opened their own schools in Brazil, who often competed against (and in some cases) beat the Gracie schools from time to time. Count Koma has often been given the title of founder of BJJ, because he taught the Gracie's as well as other Brazilians. Count Koma fought in tough man competitions and had to adapt Kano Jiu Jitsu (aka Judo) to work against different Martial Arts. This became a common theme in BJJ, competing against other arts. It also set the pattern for GJJ in terms of using Grappling in a mixed martial art format to control the opponent with dirty strikes mixed in from dominant grappling positions. It is hard to know who did the primary innovating. Certainly Count Koma did 'worked' matches as well, so not all of his fights were legitimate fights. But he was the guy who was stuck trying to figure out how to beat Western Boxers one day and catch wrestlers the next. He fought guys wearing unitards and guys in strong man costumes, so he couldn't rely on opponents wearing a gi. I think it's intuitively obvious that his innovations from a pure Kano/Judo philosophy of absolute and perfect technique (seiryoku zen'yō) vs the reality of adapting to very different and wide ranging fighting styles was his main contribution to BJJ. Either way, it's a fascinating history from Kano to Count Koma (Maeda) to Carlson to Helio.
@@inquisitive.lurker the groundfighting you're thinking of was rudimentary til Isao Okano and plenty of other Japanese Judokas that Brazilians learned from, along with luta livre/wrestling
I have watched a few of your videos as of late. This one motivated me to subscribe. I train under Helios lineage, very self defense oriented but I also love and have an affinity for sport jiu jitsu. This explanation of the family dynamic is very detailed and, in my opinion, unbiased. Great content.
Thank you for clearing up so much confusion I’ve had regarding this remarkable family and the beautiful art they pioneered. This was really well presented in such a short video! Thank you so much!! 🙏🏻😎
I train at Gracie Barra and we do self defense all the time! It’s part of the fundamentals curriculum. We also have the advanced and competition classes. Most students mix in both the fundamentals & advanced classes, at my academy at least.
I’m thinking of switching to a Gracie barra school due to the way they have beginners classes. I feel like I would benefit and get into a groove much more easily at a academy like that
@@alexsenciuc8910 - Lol, I don’t even have to know you to know I could pick out just about any Purple Belt out of my Academy and regardless of your belt ranking, you’d get rolled up. You probably don’t even train. 😂 Some of the world’s best BJJ practitioners come from Gracie Barra. Braulio Estima, Orlando Sanchez, Roger Gracie to name just a few. Did they get their Black Belts out of a Cracker Jack box like you suggest?
@@FlyingBJJSHlT not them, 95% of your mcdojo consists of belts received based on attendance, you muppet! Gracie barra london is a joke, tell me how many killers came from there! You named 3 bjj practitioners from a school that has tens of thousands of students, I have seen greco wrestlers destroy gracie barra students in jj! Foh
AdamIsForGiants: From what I understand, someone convinced an important Gracie that the letter R has some kind of mystical power. Since that day the children were to have names beginning with R. Heres an interview Helio did in 2001 www.global-training-report.com/helio2.htm and here is an interview with Rorion in 1994.. blog.aikidojournal.com/2011/08/27/interview-with-rorion-gracie-by-james-williams-and-stanley-pranin/
they like first letters that give a "hard" sound, like R, C, and K. I also heard Carlson, Sr had a different name when he was born, but Carlos, Sr had come to the belief after Carlson's birth, so he changed his name to Carlson.
I trained under Carley Gracie. He absolutely stressed self-defense first in everything before sports fighting. He always talked about being ready for a street fight. It is very hard to stomach modern BJJ with everything focused on tournaments. He emphasized you had to have a stand-up game for self-defense. He also taught many judo throws.
Prof . Ryan, I know this is an old post, but I think "Self-defense" vs"Sport" is too vague to describe the difference. Socrates XLIX's response quoting GM Carley is exactly how I've heard Ryron and Rener explain it. You usually invite others to post a video with their arguments, but I am only a white belt in GJJ. Perhaps a video explaining what is meant by sport or self defense and their associated philosophies would be good? I agree with GM Carley's statement, Ryron's and Rener's explanation, and even Rickson says a true black belt should know both self defense and sport.
Ryan: Thank you so much for this. I have really enjoyed your perspective of the Gracie Family. I agree with you on the point that you made--The gracies are just fantastic. They have created a truly remarkable art form whether for sport or self defense. God bless them all!!
It’s amazing how these discussions are found in every single martial art out there. I dabbled in Wing Chung kung fu for a while only to be sickened by the division amongst the practitioners. There’s a big fight as to which is the “traditional“ or “modified“ version. It’s maddening. And frankly, I don’t care as long as the system works for what you want to get out of it - whether competition or personal protection. Good video here 👍
exactly even JKD has its divisions but as you say who cares take what you want and make it work for you and then leave it behind when you get to a certain level you dont need anyone else
I knew a little bit of that story but man you broke it down great. I learned a lot. When it was over I didn't realize I was watching for 20 minutes. Thanks for sharing....
Another awesome video. I had a general idea that there was a split in the Gracie family, but understood it was more along the lines of the philosophy of what should be taught rather than actual animosity. This video pretty much explained how it came about. My son trains Gracie Barra, and while they do put in some self defense, it's definitely more focused on Ju Jitsu Vs Ju Jitsu.
i'm not sure i'd say there's actual animosity, per se. i have none toward anyone, and i haven't come across any, either. differences of opinion, perhaps. but no animosity.
Some professors are bringing both together, just not as a mainstream federation, but as a school. I am currently a senior white belt under Kyle Watson, who got their black belt from Jack McVivker-Megaton Diaz-Royler Gracie. We are highly competive but always add in the self defense side of a technique, if it applies. When a gym can remain laid back and friendly while keeping the jiu jitzu serious and fast paced, it's a great thing. A point is made to have entire parts of some series focusing defending against a swinging opponent.
Cant we all just get along?? Love the family! Love the art! And remember in the end your brothers and sisters in this beautiful art will have your back! Every individual is diffrent but the art is perfect!! OSS
Tim Leophard class act response! I know this guy he's a stud under Clark Gracie! He never says 2 words to anyone! To see this post is crazy! He's like an urban legend.
Kama Jiu-Jitsu i myself have been a bit concerned with lack of self defense emphasis some bjj school employ instead focusing in on competition.even helio threw sidekicks
I am so glad to see this video. I have been talking about this subject for years and about the internal Gracie feud. Just keeping it real, this video is not accurate at all. First off both sides have remained somewhat unchanged, and have added very little to each respective style. Calling one side "sport" and one side "traditional" is very wrong, since it was Helio that would go out and fight all challenges in the ring for years. Carlos Sr. learned from Meaeda , Kodan judo, which was really more violent than other types of judo. Carlos's jujitsu contained a lot of strikes and powerful throws, that Helio was unable to do, so they created a special adaptation for Helio. This adaptation was the "upside down turtle" that you see a lot of these days (fighting from the back/ pulling guard). Carlos Sr. was the mastermind behind the Vale Tudo, but Helio wanted the family art to say within the family, Helio also was unable to compete and thought the Vale Tudo would take the limelight off him. Looking at the two styles , its easy to see the difference. Look at Ralph, Renzo or Ryan vs Royce or Royler in action (especially against Sakuraba). Now in the days long past, Carlson Gracie had to step in and defend family honor when Helio was unable to beat someone, this caused a lot of conflict for those in the family. Carlson used this more forceful jujitsu to win matches, and this disturbed Helio greatly. The fact that Helio tried to erase Carlos Sr from the history of BJJ by saying that He (Helio) actually created BJJ and not his brother (see many TH-cam videos on interviews with Helio) was very evident that there was a problem in the family. Somewhere in the timeline, Carlson Gracie schools were in conflict with Carlos and Helio schools, with many fights breaking out among them. Examples in modern day is Wallid Ismail, a Carlson Gracie blackbelt who defeated Ralph, Renzo and Royce and challenged Rickson, who never took the fight. Still to this day there is a lot of name calling between Ismail and the Gracie's. Rolls Gracie came along and really combined the two styles, into this hybrid system that inspired people like Rickson (look at Rickson fights compared to his brothers). It was no secret that Rolls and Helio had some issues after Rolls started doing his own style and started teaching it to Rickson, and many of the Red Belts you see today in BJJ. Rickson's is known as one of the best Gracies fighters of his generation due to his style, which is quite obviously not like his brothers. There is also conflict in the Helio Gracie family since Rorion left Brazil to get away and out of the shadow of Rolls, and when coming to the US cheated Rickson and prevented him from fighting in the US do to some sneaky contract he had Rickson sign. Many of the Gracie brothers look down on Rorion in private, but keep the "good face" in public.
Mitsuyo Maeda is the only true master of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu! m.facebook.com/Mitsuyo-Maeda-is-the-only-true-master-of-Brazilian-Jiu-Jitsu-131632604255321/?tsid=0.20996779995782755&source=result
It is jujutsu. Almost all of it is Japanese. The trunk hold is guard. Ne-waza life. The only thing Brazilian is the rules to allow a longer ground fight. If you listen to the Gracie family they would have you believe they invented fire. There were many who weren't Gracie's who were direct lineage under maeda aka count coma. Oswaldo Fadda for one directly challenged the Gracie's in the 40s and out of 20 matches his school won 14 and most due to foot locks.
Wow, I know very little about the history. I know my experience in my gym. We have Helio Gracie on our wall, and they are a self defense gym. It's a humbling experience. Thank you for your knowledge!
I live in Rio de Janeiro, where the Gracies spread BJJ for the first time and always wanted to know why there are two Gracie brands (Gracie Barra and Gracie Humaitá). This was the first time I saw a good explanation. Your video was incredible. Thank you very much.
To Kama Jiu-Jitsu: I just want to say I loved the way you explain the differences of BJJ & GJJ, it gave me a great insight, I don't practice martial arts (or any sport due to a heart condition) but I love hearing any kind of history of martial arts. I don't know if this is possible but could you one day talk about the first generation Gracies (Carlos Sr., and all his brothers including Helio). I was always curious about them, most everyone knows about Carlos Sr. and Helio but I always wanted to find out about the brothers in between the two. Anyways, thank you and all respect to you. Please stay safe and stay healthy.
If we're being honest, BJJ has no real, definitive origin. You can find moves like kimura, rear naked, guillotine, armor etc in Japanese Jujitsu, you can find them in Chinese Shuai Jiao, Korean Hwarangdo, you can find them in German Kampfringin (wrestling) manuals from medieval Europe, in Pankration from ancient Greece etc. Don't forget that the Gracies aren't just black belts in Jit, they're also black belts in marketing and selling the art they "created".
If that’s the case, NOTHING we do anytime, anywhere, can be attributed to anyone. Truth be told, I learned it from the Gracies, not from any of your examples. Wait, what’s your point, again?
Kama Jiu-Jitsu Husserl a famous German philosopher said all philosophy is a footnote to Plato. I think many people do not think it through when they decide to ridicule something and call it merely a marketing scheme. i can tell you this, most people have not understood history well enough to make assertions about a bona fide line in the sand between Judo and other grappling arts in brazil. Brazil had lots of Japanese. During the second world war, when Judo was banned and then practiced in the Kodokan with little oversight, it was also continueing to develop in Brazil, so brazilian Judo is/was distinct, as is Russian Judo (Sambo) and even Continental Judo (When Anton Geesink used his muscle to win the olympics). But part of what makes a martial art distinct is who it is used, and developed against. So whether we call Gracie stuff Judo, or Jui Jitsu is irrelevant. The fact is Brazil had a history of everything from boxing, to Catch wrestling, karate, Capoera, etc and Brazilian methods developed in the context of fighting against those other arts. Brazil, because of the Japanese influences and the love of combat and machismo, had a nice little crucible in which martial arts developed.
The problem with this argument is that there is no standard that defines what is created...The japanese actually see to a lot of these issues, and people often critisize their xenophobia, their rigidity, but there are reasons for this. The Japanese can document anything that is created in Japan, for example, Options... First used by Japanese rice farmers to guarantee not being wiped out by a bad crop year. The option was used as an insurance policy so to speak...it is documented. KoRyu arts are all documented. And to the japanese understanding some things are more original than others. So, Arts like DiatoRyu are not as original as KoRyu, but are more original than the Budo arts. people don't understand this and try to make arguments for why something is original....that is not the issue, the issue is how something can be documented to be original. So if we go back far enough we have the SumoTe which are arts written into the Shinto texts...what we know as Sumo. This is the only original indigenious Japanese Art...hence why it is so venerated. Everything else is, in a sense borrowed from somewhere. In the KoRyu often this borrowing takes the form of the founder meeting a Tengu demon in the wilderness who passes down information and empowers them. But this can also be looked at as an allegory. What it indicates its a borrowing from a source greater than the founder. So what does this have to do with the Gracies? Well depending on how one looks at what Kano did with judo and what happened to Ju Jutsu, the Gracies could be considered anything from a type of modern Jiu Jitsu, Judo or Vale Tudo. It depends on what one considers original. judo had to gain a foothold in Japanese martial tradition. Aikido grabbed a foothold through Shinto, Karate Do grabbed a foothold through the idea of distillation, taking form and distilling it to its very essential nature: Japanese Karate, or Shotokan becomes a few powerful techniques, with an emphasis on perfection. JUDO grabbed a foothold by challenging what had become a severely weakened old martial system of Ju Jutsu. It became a supreme ju Jutsu system...originally called Kano Jiu Jutsu. Kano was a Western apologist in many respects and Judo had wrestling, Sumo along with Ju Jutsu technique. Given this situation what does one choose to call a style of wrestling/combat that came out of Kano Jiu Jitsu or Judo? Look...the fact that brazilian grappling has elements of japanese technique and catch wrestling, etc...and the fact that it emphasizes Ground fighting is no different than Sambo, which is Russian Judo, having elements of leg locking and indigenious Russian fighting elements within it. people forget that during the second world war, Judo was not developing in Japan. the kodokan was not always the creme of the crop! But during this time Judo was developing in brazil, Russia, the United States, Europe, etc. So really? what one calls the Brazilian grappling arts is a matter of perspective. brazilian culture considers a fight a certain reality that is very different than a Japanese Samurai would. Watching the beach fight for example, with one of the Gracies getting into it with a rival, they are fighting school yard style...like we did in New York City as kids: "Yo hold my jacket, let me take my shirt off" lol. This is cultural. And all forms of Judo will evolve into the culture they are used within. I think the Brazilian arts are Vale Tudo. They often involve striking, in what is called "anything goes" but depend on a solid base of grappling skills. Most of these skills in the Vale Tudo arsenal are ground fighting skills... Thats how I see it for what it is worth. So, the parts of Judo that are used for this application have been developed, along with techniques from wrestling styles in Brazil. Hope this helps
@@1madinjun I said Carlos not Carlson lol. Carlos is Helio’s older brother and Renzo and Ralph’s grandfather and Carlson’s father. That’s what I’m talking about lmao!
This is such a good explanation of a topic that a lot of people have grown tired of hearing about that it actually makes it interesting again. Well done. Subscribing
thanks for explaining - never even knew about the schism but picked up that there was a bit of a falling out between certain members. This makes it nice and clear. I'm on the Helio side.
I am reading Choque It starts in yr 1908ish with a little back story to 1901 and works from there chronologically the info mostly derived from newspapers from Rio and San Paulo, By 1934 Carlos had 3 maybe 4 professional fights, Helio had a few and his career was starting to take off. However the 2nd oldest George was the main fighter for the family at the time who also studied Luta Livra as well. The main teacher of the Gracies was Danato Reis . I am in year 1936 and and without Carlos promotion and management in the beginning we wouldn't be having this conversation about the Gracies. I study at a Royce school
Spot on! I train at gracie humaita and we do a mix of self defense and sport JJ my coach will teach us sport JJ moves but will let us know that you are vulnerable to strikes. We learn distance management as well. Best of both world's!
Excellent video and explanation. My professor teaches Rickson’s curriculum. Agreed, it is taught for self-defense. Interesting to see how the competition side developed.
Politics, Politics!! The martial arts are riddled with it including my old art of Tomiki Aikido!!!... I like all the martial arts having practised MA since I was 14 years of age... Judo, Western-style boxing, Goju ryu Karate, Wing chun gung fu and lastly Tomiki Aikido for 18 years... In the end, I went my own way and now just practice & teach what I enjoy and what works for me!! Without all the damn politics!! I'm now 65 and still enjoy what I do and I'll teach it for free to anyone who is interested in what I do... Simples...
Thank you for the history break down. I am very interested in GJJ because of the self defense focus but I only see mostly BJJ around me.. one in particular seems pretty prestigious but I am worried the focus on sport may open up flaws in self defense and that’s what I am trying to get from my jiu jitsu journey in life ... I’m current just started at a BJJ gym but not Barra officiated and I’m new and there aren’t many white belts so many days the higher belts get the majority of the training and if it wasn’t this way I’d be much happier because the instructor is a world champion and was on ultimate fighter Brazil he’s incredibly good, and also does Krav Maga so he knows self defense my issue is one the level of concentration on us lower level people with no experience, and also although he’s a self defense instructor the classes seem more sport oriented... I’m going to stick with this for the remainder of my contract with the gym if I don’t see any sort of improvement in said areas of concern I was thinking of Garcie Barra or really GJJ but it will be much more difficult logistically for me
Love everything about this video. Great review of history as well. I’ve read some replies below and I have to say for myself that I found zero bias here. What I took out of this is “Love” for self defense. In short, the Self Defense in JiuJitsu is becoming diluted. There is no way around it; and unfortunately I feel a divide will come from it. I for one will always and forever seek SelfDefense JiuJitsu and Instruction. I just wish there was an easy way o preserve GJJ in areas that are dominated by BJJ. I for one will not get caught up in “he said she said” or point blame on others. I’m very knowledgeable in the lineage/history of this family, and what’s important here is - preserving the roots of self defense regardless of who waters the soil. Thank you for the insight Professor 👏
The one who is the most important is/was Mitsuyo Maeda... If Maeda never taught either CG or HG Jujutsu, none of this (BJJ/GJJ) would ever be because they wouldn't have had anything to build upon or "improve". Therefore, there is no BJJ or GJJ, only Jujutsu in its evolved form due to the millions of practitioners, not 2 guys or one family..Lastly, just because someone discovers a few new techniques and/or variations of moves belonging to a centuries old fighting style, that is not enough to say you've changed what something is.
After a certain time Carlos Gracie never put on a kimono again except for pictures. He was the one who spent most of his time organizing his families fights and dedicated a lot of time to the study of nutrition. Helio was the one who spent most of his time fighting and teaching all the way until he passed away.
Maeda a judoka taught the Gracies. Maeda did not practice jujutsu as most people think. Taught them Judo? Newaza only? So Kosen Judo rules? Did they earn their black belt? Black belt in what? Was Maeda authorized to grant rank? No doubt that the Brazilians got really good at old school Judo newaza. In the end it's still old school Judo newaza or Kosen Judo rules if you wish.
Judo IS Japanese jujutsu . Simply refined into a sportive aspect where the best techniques are applied. So the Gracies essentially developed Gracie JiuJotsu based on having a foundation in Judo. And then when Carlson came around, he pretty muched fathered No Gi Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for vale Tudo/MMA. Then when Rolls came about he is who helped fuse the principles of bjj with the forwardness and aggressiveness of wrestling and sambo etc. And today...jiu jitsu is anyones to refine. But the Gracies are who rbought it around the world and proved its effectiveness
A lot of people fail to bring up DosSantos. He was so influential and the old school Gracia's always tried to sweep his influence under thw rug. Dos Santos was a stone cold killer. The first time I heard a Gracie bring him up on video was by Rickson. Never saw a Gracie mention his name before or since. I wish someone would do a well researched extended doc on the origin of BJJ. I'm not knocking this vid, it's broken down well and to my knowledge is spot on accurate, but this art needs a solid origin piece.
Shawn Dominique yet ppl still say bjj is the “ pure” version before classical samurai grade Jujutsu became Judo,the sportive way of samurai Jujutsu. Anyone that knows proper Jujutsu history understands that old school samurai style Jujutsu looked more like Aikido minus the whole harmonious peaceful demeanor where the Japanese did their best to break away from the bad image of imperial Japan. Attacking the wrist is predicated on the blade not sport striking. The hand usually stays out longer and is extended during sword use making techniques against the wrist applicable. On then it would progress into a tussle almost looking like judo until someone get taken down and either stabbed to death, hit to vulnerable openings of armor, strangled, or joint destroyed . The claim about being more “authentic” compared to Judo yet failing to know wrist locks yet alone basic Judo waza is ridiculous. It’s great for ppl who lack historical martial knowledge
Interesting to look into this family to see some of the history. I just joined a Gracie family BJJ following the Carlos Sr. side but the teacher says he will teach practical self-defense also. I hope so... that's what I really want to learn.
@@rhinobridge Can't say for sure. Haven't been back in months due to an (attempted) job change and had an injury from a shoulder lock drill that still hasn't healed since I was last there. Not sure what happened--but rest alone hasn't healed it and I'm going to have to go get it looked at when I get a chance. Life was a bit too busy to see a doctor during job upheaval and things are just starting to settle down again.
Very good video! Good analysis of a very intricate story. I started training with Rorion almost 40 years ago, at that time there was only GJJ, but in my opinion BJJ is more like a brand to explore (in a good sense) business opportunities. Of course most academies mainly focus on training for competition, however most of the “old school” Jiu Jitsu is there too. Regards from Brazil.
Sorry for the split in your family, I hope this gets resolved, there is no reason why traditional and sport can not live as one. I have done a few types of Japanese jui jitsui myself and nearly all martial arts have moves involved in other martial arts. However I would not use it as a sport myself, it is not my way even when I trained in Muay Thai. Best of luck.
Thank you for the great breakdown! For me it's about being respectful enough towards your students to let them know when a technique is more sport oriented or more self defense oriented. For example, last week I taught the technical stand-up to my students against a standing opponent and explained that in a self defense situation that the technical stand-up is one of your best options when you've already been knocked down, etc. I then proceeded to show some De La Riva Guard techniques since it's a great guard against a standing opponent in a sport-oriented situation. I feel the responsibility to people I teach to show them both so they are prepared for both types of situations. I love sport jiu-jistu and it's primarily what I train but I think instructors have a responsibility to their students to explain to them when they are being shown a technique that doesn't have much self-defense applicability. For their own safety off the mats, those people have put their faith in you to prepare them to defend themselves even if a school is more sport-oriented. They simply don't know what they don't know. Sounds like your school has a very mature attitude toward all of this. I hope more instructors can embrace the attitude of a more holistic approach to jiu-jitsu like it seems you're promoting.
Just curious. What is it about sport jujitsu you like? To each their own. I feel like sport jujitsu is a waste of time. Because it’s unrealistic. And requires a person to be athletic to preform most of the sport techniques. I feel the self defense is so simple. And anyone can preform them. Oss! 🤙🏻🤙🏻🤙🏻🤙🏻
@@stur6722 TLDR: Because it's fun as hell! I guess I enjoy jiu-jitsu as a sport purely unto itself. Like I might if I was playing basketball. Nobody's gonna say "Oh, well working on your 3-pointer isn't going to help you out in a real fight." Don't get me wrong, I certainly appreciate the self-defense aspect of jiu-jitsu and that's really why I got into it in the first place. But beyond a certain level of training (I'd say purple belt) continuing to train jiu-jitsu purely for self-defense purposes seems like over-specialization. Seems like it would make more sense to train muay thai, western boxing, judo or wrestling, or just "MMA". I enjoy training jiu-jitsu because it keeps me mentally and physically "alive" and the sport aspect keeps it interesting for me. Kinda like chess I suppose.
If Carlos Sr. Was so self defense based why does t the GB curriculum include any weapon defense and is heavy on training the IBJJF point system and techniques that would be wildly impractical in the streets. You can't blame Carlos Jr. For that.
One thing that a lot of people may not know is that Carley is listed as being a black belt under Carlson. He's one of three Gracies listed under Carlson, the others are their brother Rocian and Carlson, Jr.
I’ve seen in Carley interviews, that he was the last of Carlos, Sr’s don’t taught by Carlos, Sr himself. But I also know he trained on the GRACIE Ranch with all the other family members, where Helio ran the show. His older brother, GM Reyson GRACIE, said in a video that Helio trained EVERYONE in the family. Certain family members are said to have had an animosity toward GM Helio, in particular, GM Carlson, Sr and GM Carley.
When Rorion started suing family members for the right to use the name "Gracie Jiu Jitsu", I lost all respect for that side of the family. How could you sue your own family members?? Fxcked up shit if you ask me! I started training under Carlson and Carlos Sr side of the family. And its where I remain today about 21 years later.
+Zezinho Da Rocinha, that's Stuff that's between them. Doesn't affect me. I see both sides have valid arguments, and let them fight it out between themselves.
i don't know about all that. Rickson is a full brother to Rorion and Relson and sons of Helio and Belinda Soares, who is their biological mother. Margarita raised the three of them (along with Rolls), with Helio. not sure about Robin. never met him. only was told by GM Relson that Robin never liked training much as a teen, so he joined the marines. when he got out, he got back into the fold, though.
I’m curious about exactly what the Gracies did originally. Maeda was a ne-waza expert as I understand. So he knew something about jujutsu/judo ground techniques. The jiu Jitsu we have now has many moves that Helio never had anything to do with. My question is whether Helio and Carlos really did much different from Maeda. All I’ve heard is from dummies who think that the judo you learn today is what Maeda did, and the Jiu Jitsu you learn today is what Carlos and Helio did.
What they basically did is... 1) learn from Maeda 2) teach it to all their male family members 3) market their family art to the Brazilian masses through challenge matches 4) Rorion brought us the UFC, which is how most learned of the art 5) Carlos, Jr picked up from there by bringing Gracie Barra to the masses around the world. So, we can debate what the gracies did to develop the actual art, but if not for the gracies, most of us would not be having this judo vs Jiu-Jitsu debate, thinking Bruce Lee was the greatest martial artist of all time.
I train gb we do train self defense . Maybe its not at the same level? Ive also trained under my first instructor which is under Jorge Pereira and i believe he is under Rickson i was told. In that Academy we rarely trained any self defense. I really appreciate and enjoy this last history lesson here. Still have a lot of questions though keep up the great work.
I think it really depends on the instructor. My instructor is a black belt under Charles Gracie who is under the Carlos family tree and yet he is heavily into self defense and using Jiu Jitsu to protect yourself. He is also a black belt in Kenpo as well. I think a good Jiu Jitsu instructor should be able to do both sport and self defense. IMHO, if a school doesn't use the word "Self defense"or the words don't come out of the mouth of an instructor, I'd highly question the school. TBH though, if you join a school, have a strong connection with the community and instructor, learning any form of the art is what matters as well. The more people who train, the better!
my exact thoughts, Gracie Barra as said by Carlos Jr. himself is done the way it was taught at the first gym he teached (wich he learned admitedely from Helio)
I dunno at all. I think it really differs professor to professor. My professor, Omar Salum, trained under Royler and is VERY sport oriented. So we're Humaita.
The gracie curriculum is a complete art. The system starts and maintains your street self defense [there is over 100 standing self defense techniques] as you move up in knowledge. then you start learning so called, sport, but NEVER stop training your street jj. that being said, if you only learn sport, its like going to school and starting up in 7th grade, totally skipping grade school.
carlos, jr? Carlinhos? family champion of the 60s? absolutely no way. while he was definitely among the top Gracie family competitors during his 20s, he was (to my recollection) never the family champion. first, he was born in 1956, making him WAY too young to be any kind of family champion during the 60s (where he would be age 14 at the very end of the 60s) or the 70s (where he was 24 at the very end of the 70s). secone, remember, Rolls was still alive until the early 80s (1982), and during that time, there is no way Carlinhos would have overtaken Rolls. third, after Rolls, was Rickson, who never relinquished the title of family champion. that's why he was never mentioned. although he arguably has been the greatest influence to the growth of BJJ of anyone in his generation.
I was in Brasil at the Gracie School back in 2005 for a total of 3 months while I was living there. I was told that Carlson...I did make a mistake on the names was one of the best during that time and was considered champion. Carlos jr. did set up schools and I do believe headed up the BJJ foundation there in Brasil which had government sponsorship. After him..Rolles was considered the best Gracie of all time and that no one had the purity and excellence of technique than him. It was never clear as to who was really the best because all kinds of things came into that determination. Many of them had multiple fights with other groups or for lack of a better word, street fights. Rickson was considered the best during the 80's because he fought a lot of guys on the beach and so forth, he was a street fighter. There was a semi-dark side that many do not talk about formally today.
Rickson is the best of all time. Maybe not the most influential. But arguably the best. There have been family champions, but there is only one Best of All Time. RIckson beat Rolls while they were both in their primes. As far as who's the family champion today, it's between Roger and Ryron.
Very interesting and informative, thanks for putting in the work! I studied Judo intensively as a child and it is clear Jiu-Jistu is the top athletic/ sporting training system for MMA these days, well done Gracies and well done Maeda! It seems certain this system will not degenerate into gangsterism and will always train guys up very well for dominance type street fighting. Would you agree that "self defense" basically means the ability to handle eye gauges, groin strikes/ manipulation, multiple attackers, biting (weapons)? From an internal martial arts standpoint not training to handle these "dirty" technuiques means "sports" jiujitsu cannot be considered "martial" in the classical sense, ie. battlefield technology designed to kill and maim as effieciently as possible. Do you train for the biting, eye gauges, groin stuff in Jiu-Jitsu self defence systems? This seems to me the weakness in the system that is more than compensated for by the abilty to train with speed and pressure safely. SInce guns have become publicly available it seems that "martial" training has lost its social function. I think Judo, Jiu-Jitsu, MMA are filling that warrior shaped void in the hearts of men and are a very very good thing as we go hurtling blindly into this technological, disembodied age.
Enjoyed the video, good presentation with question answered in regards to the differences of BJJ and GJJ and the lineage and interesting history of a large family.
Ur conclusion about basically everyone being taught by Helio is 💯% Correct. Carlos Snr took a back seat as far as teaching went and became the spiritual and Diet advisor, also working out the Admin side of thing's, i.e Sport, Club running, head of the sport body etc. We all know this. There is no right or wrong here i don't think, BUT there is a Caveat!. If you go to a Gracie Barra Gym, compete and do well and ur Belt's gradually get darker. You would then probably say that you can Defend urself on the Street with the Physical Attributes that ur training has given you, And perhap's be Correct BUT it would've taken year's to get to that point. As a Helio Gracie Gjj Student or roots going back too. Then you wouldn't or shouldn't receive ur Blue Belt unless u've completed a 'Combatives' program. So from the first year or three you are able to defend urself against most people your size who don't know GJJ. By the time you receive your Purple Belt you can probably handle anyone that outweigh's you by 15-40 lb bigger and know's a little BJJ. Or someone a little bigger who know's BJJ to Blue Belt Level. If we're being honest, the family can't lose. Your rather a Sport's type person and it's about competition and health, OR your a Self-Defense type person who is only interested in what work's best as far as protecting you and your's. I am the Latter. We ALL get onto GJJ or BJJ for self defense reason's, if we're honest with ourselves. Bruce Lee wasn't so popular because he looked like he'd do good in local competitions!. If you want to Compete then don't expect your attributes to be so good that they can transfer over to the Street till your a Brown/Black Belt And even then, if ur honest, you will have alot of bad habits if it did go down outside a Burger 🍔 Joint, your Spider 🕸 Guard or Inversions would get you into alot of trouble. You only find this out once and it could be a very expensive mistake. If on the other hand ur not a sport Brown or Black Belt but a GJJ Blue Belt 1 Stripe. You will have practiced in almost every class 'Fight Simulation Drills' that ready you for strikes being thrown while ur trying to get into position, therefor it become's second nature. Therefor I'd have to conclude that in a Self Defence Situation I'd rather be a Purple GJJ practitioner than a Black Belt Sport Only guy. Therefor if we all got into it in the first place for Self-Defense reason's it's only logical that I'd train GJJ and not BJJ. If you have the choice. The reason there's so many Sport heavy school's is simply because (As you mentioned) there's MUCH more Gracie Barra type school's around than Helio Gracie lineage school's. So, if you have Option's but pic the sport option, good luck to you but don't be surprised if your technique let's you down on the Street as we fight as we train. 😊🤙🏻....
John Taylor That’s the best way I’ve seen it put. This is a brilliant definition of the two sides to this great art. Its also very well known that CG was late to coach a student and Helio taught him his adapted version which is what EVERYONE uses today. I agree 💯% that it’s better to be a GJJ student for street self defence purely based on the combative nature than a sportive expert. Well done to you sir.
i've trained BJJ and GJJ. I'm sticking with GJJ because: 1. generally speaking, when you are rolling in the club, most likely a BJJ player will beat a GJJ player if everything is the same (weight, mat time, strength, cardio, etc). 2. generally speaking, BJJ guys aren't 100% prepared for a street fight. sure, some may learn the self defense techniques, but you fight how you train. and in GJJ we always keep punches, slams, etc in mind when we train. 3. GJJ just has so many success stories about how someone survived a bad street situation. so, the simple calculation is: As a GJJ member, BJJ is not my enemy. The 230 pound drunk guy trying to beat me up is. I can tap all day to a BJJ brother, shake hands, and thank him for a great lesson. What I can't do is risk not surviving a street encounter. That is unacceptable. If your BJJ school also does self defense, great! But I'm only getting older and my chips are all in on surviving and longevity in training. I don't care about tapping other BJJ guys in the gym. However, I do like to visit BJJ gyms from time to time. To me, sport means play, and yeah sometimes it's nice to change things up and learn some cool new sport moves. But that's just a fun distraction for me. BJJ can spread JJ really well since a lot of people do like competition - that's awesome. But most people get into martial arts for self defense, and my only problem in this discussion is that these people learn BJJ thinking it's self defense - this can be dangerous. *I use generally speaking because again, it all depends on the academy, individual students, etc. And although I'm in a CTC, we do go to competitions. Last month our academy took 3 gold 1 silver 1 bronze. So I'm definitely not saying GJJ can't beat BJJ in a roll. I meant "overall" and "generally speaking." Their focuses are not the same.
Technically yes, but judo newaza doesn't work on BJJ gyms. What they do is mostly obsolete, like the kesa gatame (you wont pin anyone with that outside of judo, you're probably getting your back taken). There is a reason judo black belts get a BJJ blue belt when they come to jiu jitsu, their level in newaza grappling is no higher than that (
This is crazy, but normal. Happens all across the martial arts world. The same students of a master will claim that their branch is more authentic than the other ones. Wing Chun kung fu is the same, too much politics.
+Jaycee Styles, if I'm not mistaken, the Machados' mother is the sister of Carlos, Sr's wife (the mother on Carlinhos, Crolin, Rilion, I think). So they're first cousins to some of Carlos Sr's children.
Great video ! But I think in "The Gracie Way" it is said that Carlson and Robson learned under Helio, him being the head instructor of the Academy. Carlos step back from teaching being more a manager and focusing on the Diet
My daughter and I study the traditional side of jiu-jitsu under the royce gracie family tree!. Our instructor got his blue belt with royce name on it and he wears it still to this day... I'm proud to learn the jiu-jitsu helio taught and royce brought into the UFC!. From my understanding Carlos got sick 1 day and or was late and wasn't able to teach, and then that's when helio stepped in and the students liked helio's way of using leverage and that's how that came about.
Btw, I heard the story as “carlos was running late, so Helio stepped in to teach his student.” That’s the supposed story we’re all told. Sounds “a lotta” (vs a little) extraordinary, but I wasn’t there, so I give them the benefit of the doubt.
I thought I was going to hate this video but it's surprisingly accurate and informative. Well done!
no.
@@KamaJiuJitsu is this the real you?
am i the real me?
@@JoeMoss83 no
Its prob just GSP trollin.
Very informative - thank you! My old teacher is a black belt under Pedro Sauer (student of Rickson). He told me that the real difference between the two camps was that Helio’s lineage was more “small guy” Jiu-Jitsu, where the Carlos side was rougher, more competitive and more athletic.
What does "small guy" jiu jitsu mean
Ben if u are 130 pounds you are a small guy, can’t over power your rival so you have to find other ways and techniques
Really? My teacher is also a 3rd degree black belt under Pedro. What’s your professors name?
@@Ben-fx9kx its hilarious, wild-disrespectful, and gives all kinda clues into their family dynamics because I'm pretty sure what he means by that phrase is "technical" and probably more tied into the original judo teachings 🤣 Families are so petty 🤣🤣🤣
@@elbalsero4428 technical, dude, he meant technical lol. If you just constantly overpower your opponent then congratulations, you will win in street fights but paid your money and time to learn nothing from BJJ
I don't practice Jiu-Jitsu, but I find the family absolutely fascinating. I listened to a long podcast interview with Reila Gracie (Roger Gracie's mother) and it is interesting how close the family was even though they seem to have developed this family rivalry. She talks about how close she was with her Uncle Helio and the numerous interviews she did with him when preparing for her book. It was very interesting.
Great video, great explanation. I've been doing Jiu Jitsu for 19 years now, I am a black belt under Jon Burke (one of Royce's first black belts), and we focus on both the self defense techniques and the sport techniques (self defense first and foremost though). I use to run a Jiu Jitsu tournament, and in my personal opinion, I think it is important to practice all aspects of Gracie/Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (Self Defense, Sport, and MMA grappling). Don't water down the art, don't skimp on any aspect of it, by doing this we keep this art strong for future generations.
Exactly, Judo made that mistake. Every now and then something else is stripped from it cause sport aspect of it.
This kind of sums up a lot of my feelings as im looking into BJJ from both a practical applicability standpoint re: MMA but also am fascinated by the historical and cultural contexts (hence my finding my way to this video). The idea of people watering down BJJ is very scary to me because its already a subset of a subset. This video (and your comment) are helping me understand that there are even _more_ subsets, and while this is not an issue unique to BJJ, it will prove to be very problematic for something already so insular and specific. TKD and Karate are problematic in their "oversporting" imo - ie: point sparring really detaches you from practical applications - but a TON of BJJ videos here on youtube, while im sure may not be the best or most accurate representation, show people getting hurt by overzealous yet poorly trained grapplers a LOT
Well, after reading a whole lot of comments below I just have to make an observation. I was one of Rorion's first students when he was teaching out of his garage in Redondo Beach, Calif. Royce joined him a short time later as did Rickson. Other than high school and college wrestling, nobody was teaching anything like GJJ. There were all types of judo schools and karate and many other varieties of striking arts and aikido. I was there when Rorion challenged all comers from whatever art form they were involved in. He instructed his students to make challenges on his behalf. I watched as Rorion, Royce and Rickson took on all kinds of black belts from many other art forms. They won all their fights. Eventually Chuck Norris and other martial arts masters were drawn to this "new" art form called "Gracie Jiu Jitsu." Chuck Norris had Rorion and Royce give seminars to his instructors only after they had to take on one of the Gracies. Gradually, the fame of Gracie Jiu Jitsu spread and ultimately Rorion with the aid of some promoters formed the UFC where something almost unheard of was in practice ----weight classes were not present. A 150lb guy might fight a 225 pounder. This was unheard of at the time. The UFC spread the news of Gracie Jiu Jitsu even further.
One only has to look around to see how much influence Rorion had as far as GJJ is concerned. It is taught to law enforcement agencies all over the world including elite forces such as the Seals and others. I was a law enforcement officer for 33 years and watched as they developed great techniques for handcuffing, gun take aways, etc. etc. They would analyze a particular situation that police officers get into and come up with workable techniques to assist the officers. I personally don't care if they borrowed something from a thousand years ago or not. They have made a great impact and influence on the American Society and for teaching the weaker in our society how they might have a chance against a larger and more muscular opponent. So knock it all you may want as to its origins, but there was nothing like it being taught in the U.S. until Rorion brought it to the U.S. lo those many years ago. I am not as familiar with the Carlos side of the family, but have met and sparred with a number of Gracies and I have nothing but admiration for their work ethic, their genuine love for and belief in their art. I am sure this is true on the BJJ side of the family as well. All I can say is God bless them all. I met and sparred with Helio several times and words cannot express my admiration for him. I have the deepest respect and admiration for Rorion, Royce and Rickson as well. These are the men I worked with the most. In the days when I was studying with the Gracie's, I had private lessons with them so got to know them very well. I can honestly say, I love them and I wish them all the best now and far into the future.
I am pretty confident this is not true
They didn’t invent the art, all these techniques originated in Japan
Caleb Medeiros no they originated in Greece 500 years ago
@@drea4813 that's pretty dumb
'Other than high school and college wrestling, nobody was teaching anything like GJJ' - catch wrestling had already been around for 100 years..
I recently joined Gracie Barra university here in Honolulu Hawaii with my two boys. I’ve met great people with so much knowledge in Jiu Jitsu. It’s been only 3 weeks. Lot more to learn.
Update?
@@michaelbanks2401 I am sad to say that about couple years ago, not very long after joining our coach had to move away from the Island. Since then I have not trained or join another dojo. I’ve enjoyed it and looking forward to training again when that right time comes.
update ???@@showmethatthang
I don’t think it’ll ever unify sadly. I think it will continue like judo: most schools focusing on sport with only a few here and there focusing on the entire art and its self defense applications.
Learning either side will put you well above any untrained person on the street, but one is more comprehensive for competing as a sport, which is the most common use of JJ. You might use it once in your life in self-defense.
First and foremost honor both Grand-masters. I started in the Sports BJJ world not knowing the whole story between BJJ and GJJ. I began competing in local grappling tournaments. I had a friend who invited me to a GJJ school and I was sold. I am Prior military and kind of love street fighting. I found that GJJ has a complete system of fighting. We always start stand up and do a lot of striking and we end classes with ground techniques. We basically learn to fight with no rules where as my old BJJ school we mostly grapple and start on our knees. I have had the opportunity to meet some amazing BJJ Instuctors and I personally had the opportunity to meet Rorion, Royce and Rickson Gracie at our school seminars. In a nutshell, GJJ does focus on self defense! But do not let the term self defense fool you. Our striking class mimics street fighting with gloves and without gloves which incorporates kicks, punches, elbows, take downs and grappling. I believe it depends on what you want to learn. I found that GJJ fits my needs. Much Respect to the whole Gracie Family and always respect the roots. I am a student of Valente Brothers Jiu Jitsu.
As an "older" guy, I have NO interest in learning "sport" techniques or competing. Hats off to the guys and gals that do do tourneys. Perhaps in my younger days.....? So Gracie (Ryron and Rener) Jiu Jitsu is what I LOVE!!! Roll on, Brothers.
Rolls is Jon Snow 😮
I was thinking he was the Rafa Mendes in his time
I am a Japanese JuJutsu practitioner and I have been really interested in Jiu-Jitsu. This is really enlightening to me, since I had no Idea that there was a difference in how BJJ and GJJ. Please keep spreading the knowledge!
go try some classes out! you may already know most/all of the stuff based on your JJJ training. or, maybe you'll learn something new?
Since JJJ is already self defense based, I would take BJJ.
Take XJJ
...this is some deep anime-style stuff...
Need that anime made asap
Keep in mind the Gracie's have a vested interest in narrating the history of the art.
Count Koma, who taught Carlos Sr, had a school and taught other Brazilians (e.g Luiz França), who opened their own schools in Brazil, who often competed against (and in some cases) beat the Gracie schools from time to time. Count Koma has often been given the title of founder of BJJ, because he taught the Gracie's as well as other Brazilians.
Count Koma fought in tough man competitions and had to adapt Kano Jiu Jitsu (aka Judo) to work against different Martial Arts. This became a common theme in BJJ, competing against other arts. It also set the pattern for GJJ in terms of using Grappling in a mixed martial art format to control the opponent with dirty strikes mixed in from dominant grappling positions.
It is hard to know who did the primary innovating. Certainly Count Koma did 'worked' matches as well, so not all of his fights were legitimate fights. But he was the guy who was stuck trying to figure out how to beat Western Boxers one day and catch wrestlers the next. He fought guys wearing unitards and guys in strong man costumes, so he couldn't rely on opponents wearing a gi. I think it's intuitively obvious that his innovations from a pure Kano/Judo philosophy of absolute and perfect technique (seiryoku zen'yō) vs the reality of adapting to very different and wide ranging fighting styles was his main contribution to BJJ.
Either way, it's a fascinating history from Kano to Count Koma (Maeda) to Carlson to Helio.
Too much fact for this guys channel, he is a Gracie ball fonlder
well spoken sir. i agree
Gracies developed the groundfighting MUCH more.
@@inquisitive.lurker the groundfighting you're thinking of was rudimentary til Isao Okano and plenty of other Japanese Judokas that Brazilians learned from, along with luta livre/wrestling
I have watched a few of your videos as of late. This one motivated me to subscribe. I train under Helios lineage, very self defense oriented but I also love and have an affinity for sport jiu jitsu. This explanation of the family dynamic is very detailed and, in my opinion, unbiased. Great content.
Thank you
Thank you for clearing up so much confusion I’ve had regarding this remarkable family and the beautiful art they pioneered. This was really well presented in such a short video! Thank you so much!! 🙏🏻😎
Thank you!
Thanks for that. Very informative and a lot of questions answered for me!
I train at Gracie Barra and we do self defense all the time! It’s part of the fundamentals curriculum. We also have the advanced and competition classes. Most students mix in both the fundamentals & advanced classes, at my academy at least.
I’m thinking of switching to a Gracie barra school due to the way they have beginners classes. I feel like I would benefit and get into a groove much more easily at a academy like that
Meaning you want to go to Gracie Barra where you get promoted just because you show up and train!? Gracie Barra is the definition of a Mcdojo
@@alexsenciuc8910 Attendance is just one of the criteria for promotion.
@@alexsenciuc8910 - Lol, I don’t even have to know you to know I could pick out just about any Purple Belt out of my Academy and regardless of your belt ranking, you’d get rolled up. You probably don’t even train. 😂
Some of the world’s best BJJ practitioners come from Gracie Barra. Braulio Estima, Orlando Sanchez, Roger Gracie to name just a few. Did they get their Black Belts out of a Cracker Jack box like you suggest?
@@FlyingBJJSHlT not them, 95% of your mcdojo consists of belts received based on attendance, you muppet! Gracie barra london is a joke, tell me how many killers came from there! You named 3 bjj practitioners from a school that has tens of thousands of students, I have seen greco wrestlers destroy gracie barra students in jj! Foh
Either way..that family is HUGE! I prefer self defense.
The age Difference between Carlos and Helio was 10 years apart.
Great job! 👍🏼
Lazaro Carreiro y
It’s all the same there is no divide
11 years
That is a lot of R names.
+AdamIsForGiants, you're telling me!
AdamIsForGiants: From what I understand, someone convinced an important Gracie that the letter R has some kind of mystical power. Since that day the children were to have names beginning with R. Heres an interview Helio did in 2001
www.global-training-report.com/helio2.htm
and here is an interview with Rorion in 1994.. blog.aikidojournal.com/2011/08/27/interview-with-rorion-gracie-by-james-williams-and-stanley-pranin/
they like first letters that give a "hard" sound, like R, C, and K. I also heard Carlson, Sr had a different name when he was born, but Carlos, Sr had come to the belief after Carlson's birth, so he changed his name to Carlson.
You mean H names.
many brazilians believe the letter R, C bring fortune. in football you my familiar with the names Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Roberto, Cafu, Carlos
That was a fascinating and comprehensive breakdown on the origins of the art. Thank you
I trained under Carley Gracie. He absolutely stressed self-defense first in everything before sports fighting. He always talked about being ready for a street fight.
It is very hard to stomach modern BJJ with everything focused on tournaments. He emphasized you had to have a stand-up game for self-defense. He also taught many judo throws.
GM Carley was one of the best of his generation.
Prof . Ryan, I know this is an old post, but I think "Self-defense" vs"Sport" is too vague to describe the difference. Socrates XLIX's response quoting GM Carley is exactly how I've heard Ryron and Rener explain it.
You usually invite others to post a video with their arguments, but I am only a white belt in GJJ. Perhaps a video explaining what is meant by sport or self defense and their associated philosophies would be good? I agree with GM Carley's statement, Ryron's and Rener's explanation, and even Rickson says a true black belt should know both self defense and sport.
Ryan: Thank you so much for this. I have really enjoyed your perspective of the Gracie Family. I agree with you on the point that you made--The gracies are just fantastic. They have
created a truly remarkable art form whether for sport or self defense. God bless them all!!
Robert, plse contact me ASAP. KamaJiuJitsu@gmail.com ~Ryan
@@KamaJiuJitsu what the fuck
Le Grand Fromage Robert Armstrong was a student of Gracie Jiu Jitsu back in the garage days
It’s amazing how these discussions are found in every single martial art out there. I dabbled in Wing Chung kung fu for a while only to be sickened by the division amongst the practitioners. There’s a big fight as to which is the “traditional“ or “modified“ version. It’s maddening. And frankly, I don’t care as long as the system works for what you want to get out of it - whether competition or personal protection.
Good video here 👍
exactly even JKD has its divisions but as you say who cares take what you want and make it work for you and then leave it behind when you get to a certain level you dont need anyone else
I knew a little bit of that story but man you broke it down great. I learned a lot. When it was over I didn't realize I was watching for 20 minutes. Thanks for sharing....
+GH51505150, lol. And when it was over, I didn't realize I was talking for 20 minutes! Oh, well. Glad you stayed on for the whole thing. Thank you!
Another awesome video. I had a general idea that there was a split in the Gracie family, but understood it was more along the lines of the philosophy of what should be taught rather than actual animosity. This video pretty much explained how it came about. My son trains Gracie Barra, and while they do put in some self defense, it's definitely more focused on Ju Jitsu Vs Ju Jitsu.
i'm not sure i'd say there's actual animosity, per se. i have none toward anyone, and i haven't come across any, either. differences of opinion, perhaps. but no animosity.
Some professors are bringing both together, just not as a mainstream federation, but as a school. I am currently a senior white belt under Kyle Watson, who got their black belt from Jack McVivker-Megaton Diaz-Royler Gracie. We are highly competive but always add in the self defense side of a technique, if it applies. When a gym can remain laid back and friendly while keeping the jiu jitzu serious and fast paced, it's a great thing. A point is made to have entire parts of some series focusing defending against a swinging opponent.
+JimBob Rampriya, that's the way to do it.
Cant we all just get along?? Love the family! Love the art! And remember in the end your brothers and sisters in this beautiful art will have your back! Every individual is diffrent but the art is perfect!! OSS
+Tim Leophard, very well stated. Thank you!
Tim Leophard class act response! I know this guy he's a stud under Clark Gracie! He never says 2 words to anyone! To see this post is crazy! He's like an urban legend.
Well I for one appreciate you taking the time for this lesson.
Thank you
Thank you for schooling me on this history lesson. 2 thumbs up..!
Awesome elaboration and thank you for sharing your knowledge
Love getting into the history. Thank you for your time and effort.
Thank you!
i love the historical aspect of bjj/judo u contribute to this channel.please dont stop
Then please don’t stop offering your feedback!
Any topics you’d like covered? I always try to address subscribers’ questions.
Kama Jiu-Jitsu i myself have been a bit concerned with lack of self defense emphasis some bjj school employ instead focusing in on competition.even helio threw sidekicks
Side kicks often to create space when needed.
I am so glad to see this video. I have been talking about this subject for years and about the internal Gracie feud. Just keeping it real, this video is not accurate at all. First off both sides have remained somewhat unchanged, and have added very little to each respective style. Calling one side "sport" and one side "traditional" is very wrong, since it was Helio that would go out and fight all challenges in the ring for years. Carlos Sr. learned from Meaeda , Kodan judo, which was really more violent than other types of judo. Carlos's jujitsu contained a lot of strikes and powerful throws, that Helio was unable to do, so they created a special adaptation for Helio. This adaptation was the "upside down turtle" that you see a lot of these days (fighting from the back/ pulling guard). Carlos Sr. was the mastermind behind the Vale Tudo, but Helio wanted the family art to say within the family, Helio also was unable to compete and thought the Vale Tudo would take the limelight off him.
Looking at the two styles , its easy to see the difference. Look at Ralph, Renzo or Ryan vs Royce or Royler in action (especially against Sakuraba). Now in the days long past, Carlson Gracie had to step in and defend family honor when Helio was unable to beat someone, this caused a lot of conflict for those in the family. Carlson used this more forceful jujitsu to win matches, and this disturbed Helio greatly. The fact that Helio tried to erase Carlos Sr from the history of BJJ by saying that He (Helio) actually created BJJ and not his brother (see many TH-cam videos on interviews with Helio) was very evident that there was a problem in the family. Somewhere in the timeline, Carlson Gracie schools were in conflict with Carlos and Helio schools, with many fights breaking out among them. Examples in modern day is Wallid Ismail, a Carlson Gracie blackbelt who defeated Ralph, Renzo and Royce and challenged Rickson, who never took the fight. Still to this day there is a lot of name calling between Ismail and the Gracie's.
Rolls Gracie came along and really combined the two styles, into this hybrid system that inspired people like Rickson (look at Rickson fights compared to his brothers). It was no secret that Rolls and Helio had some issues after Rolls started doing his own style and started teaching it to Rickson, and many of the Red Belts you see today in BJJ. Rickson's is known as one of the best Gracies fighters of his generation due to his style, which is quite obviously not like his brothers. There is also conflict in the Helio Gracie family since Rorion left Brazil to get away and out of the shadow of Rolls, and when coming to the US cheated Rickson and prevented him from fighting in the US do to some sneaky contract he had Rickson sign. Many of the Gracie brothers look down on Rorion in private, but keep the "good face" in public.
Interesting. Kind of makes sense. How did you learn all of this?
Very well spoken, accurate and unbiased point of view. Thanks for sharing it with us.
Thank you
Everybody needs to remember brazilian jiu jitsus real father...Mitsuyo Maeda - "toughest man who ever lived"
did i (Ryan) not in our video? i kinda think i mentioned him...
Yes and that is very good!
Thank you sir!! So true!!
Mitsuyo Maeda is the only true master of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu! m.facebook.com/Mitsuyo-Maeda-is-the-only-true-master-of-Brazilian-Jiu-Jitsu-131632604255321/?tsid=0.20996779995782755&source=result
It is jujutsu. Almost all of it is Japanese. The trunk hold is guard. Ne-waza life. The only thing Brazilian is the rules to allow a longer ground fight. If you listen to the Gracie family they would have you believe they invented fire. There were many who weren't Gracie's who were direct lineage under maeda aka count coma. Oswaldo Fadda for one directly challenged the Gracie's in the 40s and out of 20 matches his school won 14 and most due to foot locks.
I'm going to my first defense class for women next Saturday at Gracie martial arts in Tampa FL.
Did you stick with it?
Sada Miyako instructed the first Jiu-Jitsu lessons in Brazil back in 1908. Mitsuyo Maeda arrived in Brazil 6 years later in 1914.
Wow, I know very little about the history. I know my experience in my gym. We have Helio Gracie on our wall, and they are a self defense gym. It's a humbling experience. Thank you for your knowledge!
I live in Rio de Janeiro, where the Gracies spread BJJ for the first time and always wanted to know why there are two Gracie brands (Gracie Barra and Gracie Humaitá).
This was the first time I saw a good explanation. Your video was incredible. Thank you very much.
To Kama Jiu-Jitsu: I just want to say I loved the way you explain the differences of BJJ & GJJ, it gave me a great insight, I don't practice martial arts (or any sport due to a heart condition) but I love hearing any kind of history of martial arts. I don't know if this is possible but could you one day talk about the first generation Gracies (Carlos Sr., and all his brothers including Helio). I was always curious about them, most everyone knows about Carlos Sr. and Helio but I always wanted to find out about the brothers in between the two. Anyways, thank you and all respect to you. Please stay safe and stay healthy.
Awesome video, keep the historically videos coming. They are much appreciated.
+thegnjdk, thanks for the feedback!
One of the best teachers I've ever had the privilege to be on the mats with. OSS!
+Andres Sepulveda, thank you, sir! Coming to visit soon?
I have trained with the gracies. I have never heard them disrespect each other.
If we're being honest, BJJ has no real, definitive origin. You can find moves like kimura, rear naked, guillotine, armor etc in Japanese Jujitsu, you can find them in Chinese Shuai Jiao, Korean Hwarangdo, you can find them in German Kampfringin (wrestling) manuals from medieval Europe, in Pankration from ancient Greece etc. Don't forget that the Gracies aren't just black belts in Jit, they're also black belts in marketing and selling the art they "created".
If that’s the case, NOTHING we do anytime, anywhere, can be attributed to anyone. Truth be told, I learned it from the Gracies, not from any of your examples.
Wait, what’s your point, again?
His point is that just because you learned it from the Gracies doesn't mean they invented it.
Kama Jiu-Jitsu
Husserl a famous German philosopher said all philosophy is a footnote to Plato. I think many people do not think it through when they decide to ridicule something and call it merely a marketing scheme. i can tell you this, most people have not understood history well enough to make assertions about a bona fide line in the sand between Judo and other grappling arts in brazil. Brazil had lots of Japanese. During the second world war, when Judo was banned and then practiced in the Kodokan with little oversight, it was also continueing to develop in Brazil, so brazilian Judo is/was distinct, as is Russian Judo (Sambo) and even Continental Judo (When Anton Geesink used his muscle to win the olympics).
But part of what makes a martial art distinct is who it is used, and developed against. So whether we call Gracie stuff Judo, or Jui Jitsu is irrelevant. The fact is Brazil had a history of everything from boxing, to Catch wrestling, karate, Capoera, etc and Brazilian methods developed in the context of fighting against those other arts. Brazil, because of the Japanese influences and the love of combat and machismo, had a nice little crucible in which martial arts developed.
The monks created the grappling arts. Gracies didnt create anything, they just made it popular.
The problem with this argument is that there is no standard that defines what is created...The japanese actually see to a lot of these issues, and people often critisize their xenophobia, their rigidity, but there are reasons for this. The Japanese can document anything that is created in Japan, for example, Options... First used by Japanese rice farmers to guarantee not being wiped out by a bad crop year. The option was used as an insurance policy so to speak...it is documented.
KoRyu arts are all documented. And to the japanese understanding some things are more original than others. So, Arts like DiatoRyu are not as original as KoRyu, but are more original than the Budo arts. people don't understand this and try to make arguments for why something is original....that is not the issue, the issue is how something can be documented to be original.
So if we go back far enough we have the SumoTe which are arts written into the Shinto texts...what we know as Sumo. This is the only original indigenious Japanese Art...hence why it is so venerated. Everything else is, in a sense borrowed from somewhere. In the KoRyu often this borrowing takes the form of the founder meeting a Tengu demon in the wilderness who passes down information and empowers them. But this can also be looked at as an allegory. What it indicates its a borrowing from a source greater than the founder.
So what does this have to do with the Gracies? Well depending on how one looks at what Kano did with judo and what happened to Ju Jutsu, the Gracies could be considered anything from a type of modern Jiu Jitsu, Judo or Vale Tudo. It depends on what one considers original. judo had to gain a foothold in Japanese martial tradition. Aikido grabbed a foothold through Shinto, Karate Do grabbed a foothold through the idea of distillation, taking form and distilling it to its very essential nature: Japanese Karate, or Shotokan becomes a few powerful techniques, with an emphasis on perfection.
JUDO grabbed a foothold by challenging what had become a severely weakened old martial system of Ju Jutsu. It became a supreme ju Jutsu system...originally called Kano Jiu Jutsu. Kano was a Western apologist in many respects and Judo had wrestling, Sumo along with Ju Jutsu technique. Given this situation what does one choose to call a style of wrestling/combat that came out of Kano Jiu Jitsu or Judo?
Look...the fact that brazilian grappling has elements of japanese technique and catch wrestling, etc...and the fact that it emphasizes Ground fighting is no different than Sambo, which is Russian Judo, having elements of leg locking and indigenious Russian fighting elements within it. people forget that during the second world war, Judo was not developing in Japan. the kodokan was not always the creme of the crop! But during this time Judo was developing in brazil, Russia, the United States, Europe, etc.
So really? what one calls the Brazilian grappling arts is a matter of perspective. brazilian culture considers a fight a certain reality that is very different than a Japanese Samurai would. Watching the beach fight for example, with one of the Gracies getting into it with a rival, they are fighting school yard style...like we did in New York City as kids: "Yo hold my jacket, let me take my shirt off" lol. This is cultural. And all forms of Judo will evolve into the culture they are used within. I think the Brazilian arts are Vale Tudo. They often involve striking, in what is called "anything goes" but depend on a solid base of grappling skills. Most of these skills in the Vale Tudo arsenal are ground fighting skills... Thats how I see it for what it is worth. So, the parts of Judo that are used for this application have been developed, along with techniques from wrestling styles in Brazil. Hope this helps
Great video. Very informative. I started bjj last week and love it. Gracie Barra out of Missouri. Thank you
Just heard master Rickson's book breathe on audio books. Great story!!!
Just found this channel and subscribed, some really great videos !!
Renzo and Ralph are on the Carlos side but I feel they are both. Maybe because they are brothers and Renzo seems close to Relson and Rickson.
Renzo and Ralph was against Carlson what are you talking about?
@@1madinjun I said Carlos not Carlson lol. Carlos is Helio’s older brother and Renzo and Ralph’s grandfather and Carlson’s father. That’s what I’m talking about lmao!
Thank you. I really enjoyed watching this.
Where i live I can do Kodokan Judo and Kyokushin Karate per month for the cost of doing Gracie Jiu Jitsu alone a month.
Good for you!
That would be badass.do it dude.bjj is part of judo
Just remember to learn complete Judo including ground grappling. Osu....
This is such a good explanation of a topic that a lot of people have grown tired of hearing about that it actually makes it interesting again. Well done. Subscribing
thanks for the history lessen. I came into this art for self defense, so I'll stay under Helio's Gracie Jitsu.
One of the best explanations on the subject. Nicely done sir.
+Dan Taylor, thank you, sir.
thanks for explaining - never even knew about the schism but picked up that there was a bit of a falling out between certain members. This makes it nice and clear. I'm on the Helio side.
I am reading Choque It starts in yr 1908ish with a little back story to 1901 and works from there chronologically the info mostly derived from newspapers from Rio and San Paulo, By 1934 Carlos had 3 maybe 4 professional fights, Helio had a few and his career was starting to take off. However the 2nd oldest George was the main fighter for the family at the time who also studied Luta Livra as well. The main teacher of the Gracies was Danato Reis . I am in year 1936 and and without Carlos promotion and management in the beginning we wouldn't be having this conversation about the Gracies. I study at a Royce school
Spot on! I train at gracie humaita and we do a mix of self defense and sport JJ my coach will teach us sport JJ moves but will let us know that you are vulnerable to strikes. We learn distance management as well. Best of both world's!
Excellent video and explanation. My professor teaches Rickson’s curriculum. Agreed, it is taught for self-defense. Interesting to see how the competition side developed.
Give your Professor a shout out!
@@KamaJiuJitsu Corey Richardson at Gulf Coast Jiu Jitsu!
Tell Prof Corey I said hey.
You did a really good job man, I'm impressed.
There are chokes and joint locks in Judo also, you can also get Ippon by submissions.
Carlos Gracie is the father! Helio is the holly spirit
Was never good at the competition part but love the way rickson teaches. Good ol fashion kick ass
My girlfriend and I just did some BJJ late last night. The score never went to the judges it was a two way K.O.
Not a very good or funny analogy.
It's OK I thought it was a good joke.
Insane knowledge on the subject. Bravo.
Love this video! subbed and liked. really makes me think about the nature of man and the explains a lot. I really appreciate you making this vid.
thank you for the feedback!
Politics, Politics!! The martial arts are riddled with it including my old art of Tomiki Aikido!!!... I like all the martial arts having practised MA since I was 14 years of age... Judo, Western-style boxing, Goju ryu Karate, Wing chun gung fu and lastly Tomiki Aikido for 18 years... In the end, I went my own way and now just practice & teach what I enjoy and what works for me!! Without all the damn politics!! I'm now 65 and still enjoy what I do and I'll teach it for free to anyone who is interested in what I do... Simples...
Tony
I like your style, your approach.
Thank you for the history break down. I am very interested in GJJ because of the self defense focus but I only see mostly BJJ around me.. one in particular seems pretty prestigious but I am worried the focus on sport may open up flaws in self defense and that’s what I am trying to get from my jiu jitsu journey in life ... I’m current just started at a BJJ gym but not Barra officiated and I’m new and there aren’t many white belts so many days the higher belts get the majority of the training and if it wasn’t this way I’d be much happier because the instructor is a world champion and was on ultimate fighter Brazil he’s incredibly good, and also does Krav Maga so he knows self defense my issue is one the level of concentration on us lower level people with no experience, and also although he’s a self defense instructor the classes seem more sport oriented... I’m going to stick with this for the remainder of my contract with the gym if I don’t see any sort of improvement in said areas of concern I was thinking of Garcie Barra or really GJJ but it will be much more difficult logistically for me
Love everything about this video. Great review of history as well.
I’ve read some replies below and I have to say for myself that I found zero bias here. What I took out of this is “Love” for self defense.
In short, the Self Defense in JiuJitsu is becoming diluted. There is no way around it; and unfortunately I feel a divide will come from it. I for one will always and forever seek SelfDefense JiuJitsu and Instruction. I just wish there was an easy way o preserve GJJ in areas that are dominated by BJJ. I for one will not get caught up in “he said she said” or point blame on others. I’m very knowledgeable in the lineage/history of this family, and what’s important here is - preserving the roots of self defense regardless of who waters the soil.
Thank you for the insight Professor 👏
Thank you for the kind words. 😁
The one who is the most important is/was Mitsuyo Maeda... If Maeda never taught either CG or HG Jujutsu, none of this (BJJ/GJJ) would ever be because they wouldn't have had anything to build upon or "improve". Therefore, there is no BJJ or GJJ, only Jujutsu in its evolved form due to the millions of practitioners, not 2 guys or one family..Lastly, just because someone discovers a few new techniques and/or variations of moves belonging to a centuries old fighting style, that is not enough to say you've changed what something is.
After a certain time Carlos Gracie never put on a kimono again except for pictures. He was the one who spent most of his time organizing his families fights and dedicated a lot of time to the study of nutrition. Helio was the one who spent most of his time fighting and teaching all the way until he passed away.
Maeda a judoka taught the Gracies.
Maeda did not practice jujutsu as most people think.
Taught them Judo?
Newaza only?
So Kosen Judo rules?
Did they earn their black belt?
Black belt in what?
Was Maeda authorized to grant rank?
No doubt that the Brazilians got really good at old school Judo newaza. In the end it's still old school Judo newaza or Kosen Judo rules if you wish.
Judo IS Japanese jujutsu . Simply refined into a sportive aspect where the best techniques are applied. So the Gracies essentially developed Gracie JiuJotsu based on having a foundation in Judo. And then when Carlson came around, he pretty muched fathered No Gi Brazilian Jiu Jitsu for vale Tudo/MMA. Then when Rolls came about he is who helped fuse the principles of bjj with the forwardness and aggressiveness of wrestling and sambo etc. And today...jiu jitsu is anyones to refine. But the Gracies are who rbought it around the world and proved its effectiveness
A lot of people fail to bring up DosSantos. He was so influential and the old school Gracia's always tried to sweep his influence under thw rug. Dos Santos was a stone cold killer. The first time I heard a Gracie bring him up on video was by Rickson. Never saw a Gracie mention his name before or since.
I wish someone would do a well researched extended doc on the origin of BJJ. I'm not knocking this vid, it's broken down well and to my knowledge is spot on accurate, but this art needs a solid origin piece.
Shawn Dominique yet ppl still say bjj is the “ pure” version before classical samurai grade Jujutsu became Judo,the sportive way of samurai Jujutsu.
Anyone that knows proper Jujutsu history understands that old school samurai style Jujutsu looked more like Aikido minus the whole harmonious peaceful demeanor where the Japanese did their best to break away from the bad image of imperial Japan. Attacking the wrist is predicated on the blade not sport striking. The hand usually stays out longer and is extended during sword use making techniques against the wrist applicable. On then it would progress into a tussle almost looking like judo until someone get taken down and either stabbed to death, hit to vulnerable openings of armor, strangled, or joint destroyed .
The claim about being more “authentic” compared to Judo yet failing to know wrist locks yet alone basic Judo waza is ridiculous. It’s great for ppl who lack historical martial knowledge
Interesting to look into this family to see some of the history. I just joined a Gracie family BJJ following the Carlos Sr. side but the teacher says he will teach practical self-defense also. I hope so... that's what I really want to learn.
Hi. 4 months have passed. Has your instructor taught you self-defense?
@@rhinobridge Can't say for sure. Haven't been back in months due to an (attempted) job change and had an injury from a shoulder lock drill that still hasn't healed since I was last there. Not sure what happened--but rest alone hasn't healed it and I'm going to have to go get it looked at when I get a chance. Life was a bit too busy to see a doctor during job upheaval and things are just starting to settle down again.
Im proud to be training under helio gracies system, although really it's all the same stuff.
i hadn't heard it thought out quite so comprehensively before. This is interesting thanks.
I was expecting a "Hobin" lol
Lmfao 😂😂😂 saaaame!
Very good video! Good analysis of a very intricate story. I started training with Rorion almost 40 years ago, at that time there was only GJJ, but in my opinion BJJ is more like a brand to explore (in a good sense) business opportunities. Of course most academies mainly focus on training for competition, however most of the “old school” Jiu Jitsu is there too. Regards from Brazil.
thank you, Marcelo! you are truly OLD SCHOOL!!!
Sorry for the split in your family, I hope this gets resolved, there is no reason why traditional and sport can not live as one. I have done a few types of Japanese jui jitsui myself and nearly all martial arts have moves involved in other martial arts. However I would not use it as a sport myself, it is not my way even when I trained in Muay Thai. Best of luck.
Thank you for the great breakdown! For me it's about being respectful enough towards your students to let them know when a technique is more sport oriented or more self defense oriented. For example, last week I taught the technical stand-up to my students against a standing opponent and explained that in a self defense situation that the technical stand-up is one of your best options when you've already been knocked down, etc. I then proceeded to show some De La Riva Guard techniques since it's a great guard against a standing opponent in a sport-oriented situation. I feel the responsibility to people I teach to show them both so they are prepared for both types of situations. I love sport jiu-jistu and it's primarily what I train but I think instructors have a responsibility to their students to explain to them when they are being shown a technique that doesn't have much self-defense applicability. For their own safety off the mats, those people have put their faith in you to prepare them to defend themselves even if a school is more sport-oriented. They simply don't know what they don't know. Sounds like your school has a very mature attitude toward all of this. I hope more instructors can embrace the attitude of a more holistic approach to jiu-jitsu like it seems you're promoting.
+Chris Lindholm, thank you for the great feedback. Have a great rest of your day!
Just curious. What is it about sport jujitsu you like? To each their own. I feel like sport jujitsu is a waste of time. Because it’s unrealistic. And requires a person to be athletic to preform most of the sport techniques. I feel the self defense is so simple. And anyone can preform them. Oss! 🤙🏻🤙🏻🤙🏻🤙🏻
@@stur6722 TLDR: Because it's fun as hell! I guess I enjoy jiu-jitsu as a sport purely unto itself. Like I might if I was playing basketball. Nobody's gonna say "Oh, well working on your 3-pointer isn't going to help you out in a real fight." Don't get me wrong, I certainly appreciate the self-defense aspect of jiu-jitsu and that's really why I got into it in the first place. But beyond a certain level of training (I'd say purple belt) continuing to train jiu-jitsu purely for self-defense purposes seems like over-specialization. Seems like it would make more sense to train muay thai, western boxing, judo or wrestling, or just "MMA". I enjoy training jiu-jitsu because it keeps me mentally and physically "alive" and the sport aspect keeps it interesting for me. Kinda like chess I suppose.
Carlos gracie sr was very much into the self defense!!
A big mistake there!
Helio changed many things that carlos have learned from Master Maeda!
If Carlos Sr. Was so self defense based why does t the GB curriculum include any weapon defense and is heavy on training the IBJJF point system and techniques that would be wildly impractical in the streets. You can't blame Carlos Jr. For that.
One thing that a lot of people may not know is that Carley is listed as being a black belt under Carlson. He's one of three Gracies listed under Carlson, the others are their brother Rocian and Carlson, Jr.
I’ve seen in Carley interviews, that he was the last of Carlos, Sr’s don’t taught by Carlos, Sr himself.
But I also know he trained on the GRACIE Ranch with all the other family members, where Helio ran the show.
His older brother, GM Reyson GRACIE, said in a video that Helio trained EVERYONE in the family.
Certain family members are said to have had an animosity toward GM Helio, in particular, GM Carlson, Sr and GM Carley.
When Rorion started suing family members for the right to use the name "Gracie Jiu Jitsu", I lost all respect for that side of the family. How could you sue your own family members?? Fxcked up shit if you ask me! I started training under Carlson and Carlos Sr side of the family. And its where I remain today about 21 years later.
+Zezinho Da Rocinha, that's Stuff that's between them. Doesn't affect me. I see both sides have valid arguments, and let them fight it out between themselves.
i don't know about all that. Rickson is a full brother to Rorion and Relson and sons of Helio and Belinda Soares, who is their biological mother. Margarita raised the three of them (along with Rolls), with Helio. not sure about Robin. never met him. only was told by GM Relson that Robin never liked training much as a teen, so he joined the marines. when he got out, he got back into the fold, though.
You lost respect for his siblings and kids because of something he did? That's pretty fucking stupid.
Zezinho Da Rocinha One member does not define all I prefer the more traditional side.
Zezinho Da Roci
Thanks for the history lesson!
+ChristianWarrior76, thanks for watching. We really appreciate it!
I’m curious about exactly what the Gracies did originally. Maeda was a ne-waza expert as I understand. So he knew something about jujutsu/judo ground techniques. The jiu Jitsu we have now has many moves that Helio never had anything to do with. My question is whether Helio and Carlos really did much different from Maeda. All I’ve heard is from dummies who think that the judo you learn today is what Maeda did, and the Jiu Jitsu you learn today is what Carlos and Helio did.
What they basically did is...
1) learn from Maeda
2) teach it to all their male family members
3) market their family art to the Brazilian masses through challenge matches
4) Rorion brought us the UFC, which is how most learned of the art
5) Carlos, Jr picked up from there by bringing Gracie Barra to the masses around the world.
So, we can debate what the gracies did to develop the actual art, but if not for the gracies, most of us would not be having this judo vs Jiu-Jitsu debate, thinking Bruce Lee was the greatest martial artist of all time.
I train gb we do train self defense . Maybe its not at the same level? Ive also trained under my first instructor which is under Jorge Pereira and i believe he is under Rickson i was told. In that Academy we rarely trained any self defense. I really appreciate and enjoy this last history lesson here. Still have a lot of questions though keep up the great work.
I think it really depends on the instructor. My instructor is a black belt under Charles Gracie who is under the Carlos family tree and yet he is heavily into self defense and using Jiu Jitsu to protect yourself. He is also a black belt in Kenpo as well. I think a good Jiu Jitsu instructor should be able to do both sport and self defense.
IMHO, if a school doesn't use the word "Self defense"or the words don't come out of the mouth of an instructor, I'd highly question the school. TBH though, if you join a school, have a strong connection with the community and instructor, learning any form of the art is what matters as well. The more people who train, the better!
my exact thoughts, Gracie Barra as said by Carlos Jr. himself is done the way it was taught at the first gym he teached (wich he learned admitedely from Helio)
I dunno at all. I think it really differs professor to professor. My professor, Omar Salum, trained under Royler and is VERY sport oriented. So we're Humaita.
Wonderful share.
The gracie curriculum is a complete art. The system starts and maintains your street self defense [there is over 100 standing self defense techniques] as you move up in knowledge. then you start learning so called, sport, but NEVER stop training your street jj. that being said, if you only learn sport, its like going to school and starting up in 7th grade, totally skipping grade school.
john lammons you are anaconda John lammons?
It seems like they both have to be considered the founders. They worked together and both helped it grow.
Carlos, Sr is the founder.
Kron gracie is one of thr best sport bjj guys in the world. From the helio side....
I live next to Kron's gym. Does he teach more self defense or sport?
He also said Kron has adapted Ricksons style for competition
@@timothythomas2561 Kron focuses on self defense
Carlos Jr...was the champion of the family in the 60's to early 70's and this is not mentioned by this man...
+nagone11 We have a separate video talking about the champions actually. Look it up!
+nagone11 th-cam.com/video/Uo9mzaZAoNo/w-d-xo.html
carlos, jr? Carlinhos? family champion of the 60s? absolutely no way. while he was definitely among the top Gracie family competitors during his 20s, he was (to my recollection) never the family champion. first, he was born in 1956, making him WAY too young to be any kind of family champion during the 60s (where he would be age 14 at the very end of the 60s) or the 70s (where he was 24 at the very end of the 70s). secone, remember, Rolls was still alive until the early 80s (1982), and during that time, there is no way Carlinhos would have overtaken Rolls. third, after Rolls, was Rickson, who never relinquished the title of family champion.
that's why he was never mentioned.
although he arguably has been the greatest influence to the growth of BJJ of anyone in his generation.
I was in Brasil at the Gracie School back in 2005 for a total of 3 months while I was living there. I was told that Carlson...I did make a mistake on the names was one of the best during that time and was considered champion. Carlos jr. did set up schools and I do believe headed up the BJJ foundation there in Brasil which had government sponsorship. After him..Rolles was considered the best Gracie of all time and that no one had the purity and excellence of technique than him. It was never clear as to who was really the best because all kinds of things came into that determination. Many of them had multiple fights with other groups or for lack of a better word, street fights. Rickson was considered the best during the 80's because he fought a lot of guys on the beach and so forth, he was a street fighter. There was a semi-dark side that many do not talk about formally today.
Rickson is the best of all time. Maybe not the most influential. But arguably the best. There have been family champions, but there is only one Best of All Time. RIckson beat Rolls while they were both in their primes. As far as who's the family champion today, it's between Roger and Ryron.
Very interesting and informative, thanks for putting in the work!
I studied Judo intensively as a child and it is clear Jiu-Jistu is the top athletic/ sporting training system for MMA these days, well done Gracies and well done Maeda! It seems certain this system will not degenerate into gangsterism and will always train guys up very well for dominance type street fighting.
Would you agree that "self defense" basically means the ability to handle eye gauges, groin strikes/ manipulation, multiple attackers, biting (weapons)?
From an internal martial arts standpoint not training to handle these "dirty" technuiques means "sports" jiujitsu cannot be considered "martial" in the classical sense, ie. battlefield technology designed to kill and maim as effieciently as possible.
Do you train for the biting, eye gauges, groin stuff in Jiu-Jitsu self defence systems?
This seems to me the weakness in the system that is more than compensated for by the abilty to train with speed and pressure safely.
SInce guns have become publicly available it seems that "martial" training has lost its social function. I think Judo, Jiu-Jitsu, MMA are filling that warrior shaped void in the hearts of men and are a very very good thing as we go hurtling blindly into this technological, disembodied age.
Enjoyed the video, good presentation with question answered in regards to the differences of BJJ and GJJ and the lineage and interesting history of a large family.
Ur conclusion about basically everyone being taught by Helio is 💯% Correct. Carlos Snr took a back seat as far as teaching went and became the spiritual and Diet advisor, also working out the Admin side of thing's, i.e Sport, Club running, head of the sport body etc. We all know this. There is no right or wrong here i don't think, BUT there is a Caveat!. If you go to a Gracie Barra Gym, compete and do well and ur Belt's gradually get darker. You would then probably say that you can Defend urself on the Street with the Physical Attributes that ur training has given you, And perhap's be Correct BUT it would've taken year's to get to that point. As a Helio Gracie Gjj Student or roots going back too. Then you wouldn't or shouldn't receive ur Blue Belt unless u've completed a 'Combatives' program. So from the first year or three you are able to defend urself against most people your size who don't know GJJ. By the time you receive your Purple Belt you can probably handle anyone that outweigh's you by 15-40 lb bigger and know's a little BJJ. Or someone a little bigger who know's BJJ to Blue Belt Level. If we're being honest, the family can't lose. Your rather a Sport's type person and it's about competition and health, OR your a Self-Defense type person who is only interested in what work's best as far as protecting you and your's. I am the Latter. We ALL get onto GJJ or BJJ for self defense reason's, if we're honest with ourselves. Bruce Lee wasn't so popular because he looked like he'd do good in local competitions!. If you want to Compete then don't expect your attributes to be so good that they can transfer over to the Street till your a Brown/Black Belt And even then, if ur honest, you will have alot of bad habits if it did go down outside a Burger 🍔 Joint, your Spider 🕸 Guard or Inversions would get you into alot of trouble. You only find this out once and it could be a very expensive mistake. If on the other hand ur not a sport Brown or Black Belt but a GJJ Blue Belt 1 Stripe. You will have practiced in almost every class 'Fight Simulation Drills' that ready you for strikes being thrown while ur trying to get into position, therefor it become's second nature. Therefor I'd have to conclude that in a Self Defence Situation I'd rather be a Purple GJJ practitioner than a Black Belt Sport Only guy. Therefor if we all got into it in the first place for Self-Defense reason's it's only logical that I'd train GJJ and not BJJ. If you have the choice. The reason there's so many Sport heavy school's is simply because (As you mentioned) there's MUCH more Gracie Barra type school's around than Helio Gracie lineage school's. So, if you have Option's but pic the sport option, good luck to you but don't be surprised if your technique let's you down on the Street as we fight as we train. 😊🤙🏻....
John Taylor That’s the best way I’ve seen it put. This is a brilliant definition of the two sides to this great art. Its also very well known that CG was late to coach a student and Helio taught him his adapted version which is what EVERYONE uses today. I agree 💯% that it’s better to be a GJJ student for street self defence purely based on the combative nature than a sportive expert. Well done to you sir.
i've trained BJJ and GJJ. I'm sticking with GJJ because:
1. generally speaking, when you are rolling in the club, most likely a BJJ player will beat a GJJ player if everything is the same (weight, mat time, strength, cardio, etc).
2. generally speaking, BJJ guys aren't 100% prepared for a street fight. sure, some may learn the self defense techniques, but you fight how you train. and in GJJ we always keep punches, slams, etc in mind when we train.
3. GJJ just has so many success stories about how someone survived a bad street situation.
so, the simple calculation is: As a GJJ member, BJJ is not my enemy. The 230 pound drunk guy trying to beat me up is. I can tap all day to a BJJ brother, shake hands, and thank him for a great lesson. What I can't do is risk not surviving a street encounter. That is unacceptable. If your BJJ school also does self defense, great! But I'm only getting older and my chips are all in on surviving and longevity in training. I don't care about tapping other BJJ guys in the gym.
However, I do like to visit BJJ gyms from time to time. To me, sport means play, and yeah sometimes it's nice to change things up and learn some cool new sport moves. But that's just a fun distraction for me. BJJ can spread JJ really well since a lot of people do like competition - that's awesome. But most people get into martial arts for self defense, and my only problem in this discussion is that these people learn BJJ thinking it's self defense - this can be dangerous.
*I use generally speaking because again, it all depends on the academy, individual students, etc. And although I'm in a CTC, we do go to competitions. Last month our academy took 3 gold 1 silver 1 bronze. So I'm definitely not saying GJJ can't beat BJJ in a roll. I meant "overall" and "generally speaking." Their focuses are not the same.
Awesome.
Awesome video man thank you for the history
It's all still just Kano ryu "JUJUTSU" aka Judo
Technically yes, but judo newaza doesn't work on BJJ gyms. What they do is mostly obsolete, like the kesa gatame (you wont pin anyone with that outside of judo, you're probably getting your back taken).
There is a reason judo black belts get a BJJ blue belt when they come to jiu jitsu, their level in newaza grappling is no higher than that (
This is crazy, but normal. Happens all across the martial arts world. The same students of a master will claim that their branch is more authentic than the other ones. Wing Chun kung fu is the same, too much politics.
Nice info on the history of the family.
Thanks for the clarification, I learned a lot from that. Where do the Machado's come in?
+Jaycee Styles, if I'm not mistaken, the Machados' mother is the sister of Carlos, Sr's wife (the mother on Carlinhos, Crolin, Rilion, I think). So they're first cousins to some of Carlos Sr's children.
Great video !
But I think in "The Gracie Way" it is said that Carlson and Robson learned under Helio, him being the head instructor of the Academy.
Carlos step back from teaching being more a manager and focusing on the Diet
he said jean jaq machado was a cousin of carlson jr.
Kama Jiu-Jitsu Thank you so much mate. Im definitely subscribing to this channel
+BOOGER C, carlos, jr,
My daughter and I study the traditional side of jiu-jitsu under the royce gracie family tree!. Our instructor got his blue belt with royce name on it and he wears it still to this day... I'm proud to learn the jiu-jitsu helio taught and royce brought into the UFC!.
From my understanding Carlos got sick 1 day and or was late and wasn't able to teach, and then that's when helio stepped in and the students liked helio's way of using leverage and that's how that came about.
Btw, I heard the story as “carlos was running late, so Helio stepped in to teach his student.”
That’s the supposed story we’re all told. Sounds “a lotta” (vs a little) extraordinary, but I wasn’t there, so I give them the benefit of the doubt.
@@KamaJiuJitsu too bad we wasn't there to witness the great beginning of the jiu-jitsu we practice or train in today 💪🏾💪🏾
Exactly.
Jigoro Kano side.
Ouch. 😅
Very informative. Thank you.
I talked to a few of the Gracie guys and they also spoke about a schism In the family. It's hard to keep track of haha