In Ravel's Ondine, the piano plays YOU (ft. Robert Durso, Ben Laude)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 14 พ.ค. 2024
- 0:00 Tendonitis machine
2:27 Grouping the opening figure
4:40 A series of micro-rebounds
7:15 Riding the keys and rotation
9:34 How (and how not) to practice
Watch Robert Durso's "Principles of the Taubman Approach": app.tonebase.co/piano/home?tb...
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When I hear the opening of this piece, I gasp hard!
I'm stealing this one. 😂
A master teacher knows how to take complex issues and break them down so they are simple to understand. This is the real deal. Mr. Durso cured me from injury after others, in places typically sought as the best in the world, could not.
You know, the Taubman method get's teased in pianist circles, but I think this is great stuff. Sometimes, bringing conscious awareness to the underlying anatomic or physical mechanisms underlying specific piano techniques can help someone overcome a weakness in their technique.
I was introduced to this method by an excellent pianist years ago and remember how much it helped me technically. It's fascinating to watch this excellent demonstration by these two gentlemen! Thank you so much!
The Taubman method has been so transformative for my own playing and given me physical tools to approach challenging works. It's the best!
@@Themis-if1xspls tell me which
Probably they simply know nothing about it it's been 7 months since I've started and it's the only thing that truly works
would love to find even a single yt video of Robert Durso playing an entire piano work, no matter how tiny. He must be incredible!
This is a fantastic lesson on one of the most difficult works for solo piano! With humor and irrefutable logic, Robert Durso shows how to navigate and avoid the potential pitfalls of the very challenging opening (and recurring figure) of this piece. He starts off by asking how Ben would like to have it better, and then goes to EXACTLY what would help him to get that shimmering sound. It is not just one thing though! As soon as one concept becomes clear, he combines it with the next. There are multiple elements that, in correct combination and proportion, lead to the satisfying end result. What Robert says about rehearsing the right moves, deepening them, is so empowering, and it makes total sense after he has clearly communicated those very elements to Ben, who in turn implements them extremely well. I’ve worked with Mr. Durso for many years and am so grateful to him and to the work of Dorothy Taubman because the tools that she discovered and that he teaches have completely revolutionized how I practice, play, and teach piano.
I don't start truly practicing a piece until I learn the notes and rhythm. Metronomes are alright when learning the notes because they make sure you're not all over the place rhythmically but metronome playing isn't practicing, it's learning the notes and the basic rhythm of the song. After you've taught your fingers what to then break form from the rigidity and start truly practicing the piece. Rhythm and fingering are essential parts of learning a piece.
Watching videos like this gives me the same joy I imagine a mechanic gets fine tuning an engine with a master mechanic.
I'm not a piano player, I'm a classical guitarist. But these piano videos are so incredibly valuable and thought-provoking for a guitarist as well.
The thought of "micro-rebounds" especially is something I will have use of when learning pieces on my own instrument.
Thank you! :)
Benjamin Grosvenor seems to follow the directive "don't interpret, just play," a directive apocryphally given by Ravel himself. Watching him perform Ondine radically changed my perspective on the piece.
He is a SOLID musician. No shenanigans. Honest playing. Big talent. Gorgeous result.
Combining the elements of the Taubman technique in the right proportions is the most efficient use of my practice time. Robert Durso is masterful at pinpointing where his students' technical limitations are, and he gives a clear explanation of how to conquer these limitations. So grateful to Dorothy Taubman for discovering these elements.
Way to go! Your explanations and teaching are always so clear- and fun! Thank you for also teaching me how to play Ondine 15 years ago with evenness I never would have achieved without you! (and by the way, GREAT suit!)
Such a helpful and insightful lesson by Robert Durso! What is so brilliant about the way he teaches the piece is that he goes right to the root of the difficulties that occur. He observes what Ben is doing and answers his questions clearly and directly and gives tangible, practical solutions to playing the passages that achieve real results--more musically satisfying and more comfortable to play simultaneously. I agree with his comments about the general inadequacy and inefficiency of practicing piano pieces in different rhythms in hopes that that will yield accuracy, speed, and evenness. Prior to studying Taubman's work myself, I spent many hours practicing Chopin Etudes (I'm looking especially at you, Op. 10, No.1) that way in hopes of achieving accuracy, speed, and evenness--and yet I still did not achieve those results. Once I discovered the Taubman approach and began getting help with those pieces, I was utterly thrilled and amazed to be shown exactly what to do in each place in the pieces that I had any problems. I have found it to be so much more effective, because I am then able to practice the choreography and sound exactly the way I want it to come out in performance, and it yields much more consistent results. Not only that, but once you have a passage, you know that you do because you achieve what you want AND you do so with ease. I would encourage anyone who is unsure about it, but would be curious to find out more, to reach out to the Golandsky Institute (the institute that Mr. Durso co-founded) to schedule a lesson with him or another experienced teacher and try it for yourself. I've certainly found it to be transformative. Also--snazzy suit award goes to Mr. Durso--way to keep it classy.
I think this is absolutely brilliant! Robert Durso's explanation of how to solve the technical issues inherent in a piece of music generally thought of as a very complex work is at once both illuminating and inspiring. The tools which one uses in The Taubman Approach to master all manner of technical problems and the tools we use to express the music are ultimately one and the same. Thank you for this!
Love Jeff!!
This piece is truly sublime; it’s great to hear the technical analysis that’s underlying this masterpiece by Ravel.
Wonderful and wise words from Robert Durso!
So great to watch such an amazing pianist and pedagogue in action, thank you Prof. Durso 🎹
@@Themis-if1xs I prefer his voice. It's very gay and delightful.
Thank you for this amazing free tips for practice this beautiful piece.
I wish good luck to everyone practicing this 😉🎶
Such great advise by Mr. Durso! The concise and articulate way of explaining how to approach this passage using the Taubman approach is invaluable!
Excellent analysis, especially the final section. An eloquent statement around rhythmic practice which i agree with but have never found the words to express. Thank you.
Pogorelich brings out the rhythmical element in the beginning figuration unbelievably well!
He is the most revolutionary pianist since Michelangeli bar none
Agreed--I've never forgotten that, after the first listen. Magical.
Pogorelich championed this piece, never heard anything like his interpretation! Highly recommended for those who haven't heard his recording.
@@hermodnitter3902 I know very well the piece, as well as the pianist. Pogorelich is fantastic, but I've never heard him play Ondine before. I'll definitely check him out!
@@mazeppa1231 hope you like it!
A love the continuity of your playing here. The way you make the accompaniment grow when the left hand melody rises to the note F is wonderful. And then you get a lot quieter, which is also wonderful. One thing that works is that you make the rhythm of the accompaniment clear and not just a shimmering blur with too much pedal.
Fantastic lesson! I now feel like learning this piece.
Listen to Vlado Perlmuter's (earlier) recording - he studied it with the composer.
BRILLIANT.
Good stuff!!
A huge thank you to Tonebase, for all they do, but especially for giving Bob and the Taubman approach the attention they both deserve, yet too often don’t receive. Discovering this method and studying with Bob has been, by far, the most consistently helpful experience of my musical life, and I only hope that more people are able to discover it sooner than I did. Some of the information may seem strange at first from a traditional perspective, and if you are lucky enough to play well already, then feel free to ignore it-one of the things that comes up in lessons is that if something is truly working, then there is no need to think about it further or do anything different! But for times when we struggle to produce the sound we want, or (let’s hope not!) encounter pain, then we have to take some time to examine the technique-not for its own sake, but for the sake of actually making the music that we want to make. This has been my experience in lessons-that the focus is ALWAYS on actually producing the sound I want, in an effortless and healthy way. Of course, it makes sense that there would be some basic principles that apply to everyone, but never is any particular piece of information insisted upon dogmatically. If something doesn’t work, then we stop and search for the information that will actually help me achieve the desired sound, based on the current state of my technique, and we don’t stop until a satisfyingly musical solution is found, which almost never takes longer than a single lesson. What else could anyone want? If you have ever struggled with any aspect of your playing, then I encourage you to check out this fantastic body of knowledge. Unfortunately, there are still many misconceptions about the Taubman approach that cause hostility towards it, so again: thank you to Tonebase for providing these videos and helping to correct this problem!
@10:25 "Why do I want to train myself to play unevenly for the purposes of playing evenly?"
Because a long/short dotted rhythm naturally accents every long note, and if a passage is played straight immediately after it will feel more even because of it.
I found this very helpful. I’m learning this piece right now and was having a hard time figuring out a good technique for the beginning
Helpful.
My actual piano playing skills: ...
Ravel's Ondine piano skills required: IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
Very interesting thoughts
I have trouble memorizing when I`m doing something against the body`s natural functioning; the body refuses. Once I achieve coordinated action (and the fingering is good) memorizing much easier. If I`m struggling session after session with memorizing I know something is off.
Such a great lesson. I've never played basketball, but I instantly got the analogy.
Never played basketball!? How?
Not everyone is like you
@@ortholol You talkin’ to me?
Thanks!!! "Why do I want to practise unevenly for the purpose of playing evenly" that has eluded me as well. Feel less crazy.
No offence to my great piano teacher, I wish this guy was my piano teacher.
I played this on my senior recital and it me 30 days to learn the first page then another 30 days to learn the rest of Gaspard....the first page of Ondine is the most difficult thing that I have played...You are sounding good, just remember if you can play it slowly, you can play it fast. You don't want to hear the rhythm, but like you said, a shimmering quality....so hard..
One of my greatest teachers started right off the bat with the idea of the grouping 3, 3, 2, 2 (or 3, 3, 2, 3). He suggested 3, 3, 5 groupings, kind of the same thing. I practiced it with intentionally terrible rhythm (as one would). Then you end up tossing that out when you feel it in context. A big thing for me was GO SLACK IN THE JAW and keep the spine in a mellow stack.
Effroyable ! La mélodie d’Ondine est legato et chantée. Lisez la partition!!!
Yakov Smirnoff reference is hilarious!! (and true)!!
Hot take (and sorry for so many comments, Gaspard just has so much of my heart): don't actually approach the first few pages from the perspective of working out the right hand. Work on the LEFT hand. If the song, the voice, is enough of an absolute leader and in charge, all that impossible stuff in the RH will get a huge boost for so much easier work. One of my weird thoughts that sometimes was amazing and sometimes was a flop: it's the other hand, the one you're not fixated on. Sometimes that solves a lot.
Obviously, the RH here is one of those nuts you just have to crack in some way, but I do think that falling in love with the song of these first two pages gives one a weirdly impressive benefit technically.
Practicing a "Passage in Rhythms" interrupts the Composer true intentions. Rhythms can change the shaping in a piece. It's great to practice rhythms, but do it for a reason (Example would be scales in 4:3 for Jazz improv..) .....Separately........Robert Durso is an AMAZING pedagogy teacher!
Hi Ben. Out of left field. What guidance can you give me (65 next month) and others on technology for electronic scores? I have a large "hard-copy" library, in the "right" editions (Henle, Peters, PWM, Universal, etc.) and write extensively in my scores. What is the 21st century means of doing this? Thanks.
10:28 - finally this guy said something I believe he is right!
Although a self-taught pianist and a professional opera singer with a degree in bassoon performance, I nearly gasped when he said not to play in rhythms! I remember, specifically on bassoon and flute, altering rhythms and note groupings could often be the key to unlock certain thorny passages, or help to determine phrasing where a breath is not immediately obvious (one thinks of when one was playing Bach or Telemann), and sometimes it served to help one isolate a tricky fingering to smooth out the passage. As a vocalist it is not one of the more employed tools, but I will utilize it in a passage of tricky coloratura (especially in something like Handel where the sequence can be less apparent by sight), or recommend it to other singers who might struggle with florid passages or have less agility. I would think that pianists could also find it a useful tool when deciphering things musically, perhaps debatably less for mechanical purposes as Mr. Durso seems to be describing it. I do, however, adore his admonishment of metronomic practice and playing! I'm glad that more musicians lately seem to be speaking out against it.
I also think rhythms have a lot of value. I understand what he's saying, but I don't completely agree.
@@arabellazito3134 I could see if he said that it’s wasteful for this particular example but I got the feeling he finds it unuseful as a technique.
@@MicheleAngeliniTenor I think it is useful in this example. Doing rhythms puts the emphasis on a different finger with each rhythm, and this helps to even out the touch and the sound. I don't think it's the only thing that needs to be used in this example, but I do think it's helpful. Understanding the movement pattern of the hand, wrist and arm is also important, but rhythms definitely have their place.
@@MicheleAngeliniTenor by the way, I also play flute and harp and have used rhythms in both of those as well. I've studied the French school in all 3 instruments, and it definitely seems to be a common thread in that way of training. I've also studied to be an opera singer but actually never thought to use rhythms in singing. I'll have to try that the next time I work on something with coloratura!
@@arabellazito3134 I agree with you but I also see his point. I would certainlu need something like it to routine that sort of constant pattern into my wrist.
What grosvenor does with the introduction is insane
He's the new standard in this piece.
Does this mean that after I learn how to play this I can play Rach 3 backwards?
4:51
5:37
5:56
7:49
9:08
Wow, that’s my channel’s name.
I had (had) a friend who actually gave the idea of being a concert pianist after playing Gaspard de la Nuit.
"gave" --- what did you mean by that?
@@rosiefay7283 He meant "gave up".
Isn't movement III, 'Scarbo' even more difficult?
Looking up Taubman. But the opening is NOT the hardest part of that piece. It’s the tuplets in arpeggios
grouping it 123 123 12345 also works wonders
That first page is actually the easiest part of Ondine...😅 So challenging piece. But totally worth the effort.
I wish Ben had not interrupted Mr. Durso so much. Should I explain further ?
2:40 That's what she said!
Ultimate tip: play Gaspard in a big resonant hall. All problems solved. Jk a little.
7:25 Yas queen ride i-
7:46 "Because the ball is the key" So now were riding balls huh?
Rhythms work. Sorry Rob
not interesting without seeing the score
Hardest. What about Alkan, Godowsky’s études on Chopin études. Seems with a lot of alkan, you barely have any time to think about interpretation, just playing it the right way is too hard