Loved this video - the build up, the nerves, the camaraderie, then the reality of the transition from early euphoria to latter pain cave. Honest effort from all three of you. Mark, you were wise to step aside. Better to listen to your body and save yourself for another day.
Would love to see the 3 attempt the sub 2.30 again in April. I'd love to see a bit more about Mark's problems on the day and some possible reasons for it. There are plenty of us watching with all kinds of ability levels, almost all WAY behind Mark, and yet we've all had days where even when we're relatively fresh it just isn't happening and you feel awful for most of an easyish run. I know what Mark went through here was worse than just not feeling good, but I'd love to hear more about what might be happening here for Mark, and more generally on those days where your body is screaming at you to just go home, and yet other days even after a few days of consecutive hard days or weeks you go out and you're flying, feel great, and can't get enough of it.
Great effort, guys. The course really looked quite hilly. What I really love about this video is Mark showing that it is the hardest, but also the smartest move to pull out of a race, if you're not feeling well. I know we all put a lot of time and hard work into the training for our races, but in the end we are doing what we love, so it is never wasted. A PB is a great thing to aim for, but the number one goal always has to be coming home safely! Let's never forget that.
Agree 100%. The good thing about organised races is they give you a target to aim for. But the risk is always that you invest too much emotion in hitting peak form on a specific date. So important to listen to your body.
Great effort my favourite episode yet - to us you guys have super powers so it was great that this was so authentic; super athletes hurt as well. Thanks team
Well done to all of you! Thank you for sharing and keeping it real with your triumphs and struggles. Most of us have had those terrible days like Mark, but it sounds like it was the right thing to pull out. Being light-headed in a race can be flat out dangerous. Would love to hear a follow up if you figure out what happened.
Good effort guys. A reflection on reality, challenges we all have in executing your training plan alongside normal life. If you do go ahead with the April event it would be nice to track your journey from training plan to finishing line. Great video coverage btw 👍
Props to you, I also ran this marathon (although not at the same fantastic pace) but I found it so so tough, and I know many others did as well. The heat, the hills at the very beginning, also getting a splitting pain in my ankle around 7th mile. I had to stop and walk around mile 16 and just didn’t stop crying. It only got worse. I finished it but the rest of it was a complete hobble and I felt so defeated. You showed a lot of courage listening to your body and stopping when you did. It’s only up from here!!
Was an absolute honour & pleasure to meet and work with you guys on this challenge! Seeing behind the scenes and the dedication even without the right training was inspiring! Look forward to the next challenge! 🤷🏽♂️🏊🏽♂️🚴🏼♂️🏃🏾♂️
I went through exactly as you did as pulled up at the same place about 3mins behind you. Marathons are so unforgiving. Well done and there will be better days.
That was a bloody damn good video, it has everything that I really like about a race video. Interesting and not too long pre and post race coverage and some really nice shots from the race itself.
Your preparations combined sound like an ideal pre-race situation to me: pace and hitting key sessions (Mark), overall good perception of your own body and muscular memory that still remembers the routine of a pro athlete (James) and mileage (Sam). Sad it was an individual event and not a team effort :). Thank you for showing the highs a n d lows.
Love this! Thank you for putting this together. Really gets me in the mood ( and some good reality checks too, of the challenges ahead) for my third marathon of the year and the one where I’m going to finally shave off the 52 seconds and get under 3.29:59!
I really enjoyed watching this & I hope we get to see more of these (body & mind willing). Absolutely gutted for Mark, we’ve all had those days when your just not feeling it :(
So gutted for you, Mark. Even though the beginning of the video shows the clip of you walking, I was kinda hoping for there to be a plot twist sorta thing in the end. It was still a massive attempt, so kudos to you on that, and to James and Sam for their respective spectacular attempts too. Hope the 3 of you give it another shot in April. I'll be rooting for you!
I’m actually shocked at the vitriol in the comment sections. Some people take themselves way too seriously. Great video guys! Good luck for the next one. Have subscribed 👍🏼
Well done gents, it would be great to see you attempt the race again next year. I’ve got a marathon on 25th Sep but my target pace is considerably slower.
Great video. Well done, lads! Sorry for you Mark but I'm glad you decided to stop. There will be another race, another marathon but you have just one body. Loved the camaraderie, that is your real victory. Well done again 💪
Really relating to this vid. I have London in 2 weeks. My goal is sub 3 but I think I’m realistically at 3:10-3:15 fitness. Really unsure whether to have a crack and risk a blow-up or be slightly more conservative.
So sorry for Mark. Last half marathon I was doing great in the first 10k. I started getting stomach pain after 13k. After 17k, the pain was unbearable, so I stopped. That was a terrible feeling 😐
Amazing job, guys. Fantastic video, and fantastic performances. It's great to see how you young, superfit athletes go through the same dark places that us vets (V50 here) do (including the nipple rash!). I missed my PB target by a long chalk - wheels came off at 18-19 miles and just couldn't keep even a jog going after that. I'm glad James said it was hot - as a Brit it seems like any sustained sunshine seems "hot", but James is used to proper heat! If you get an answer to Mark's issues, please let us know: I get that "feeling icy cold" thing when going long runs. Whether it's nutrition, hydration, or just not enough HTFU-ing, I'd love to get it cracked! Sam - not 2h30m, but seriously: chapeau, Sir. Good luck to you all in 2022!
Great video showing the real challenge of marathon racing for a PB👏👏 I’m guessing that Mark was actually suffering from heat exhaustion as the only time I felt lightheaded and started shivering on a hot day was on a 31C race day and I definitely wasn’t dehydrated since if was only a half marathon. Thanks for the video series and best of luck with your retrying next April 👍
#gtncoachescorner Not a question but more some feedback. Just ran the Valencia Marathon and used the GTN plan for my preparation. I’ve done 5 IMs but never a stand-alone marathon so this was about seeing what I could do. My previous best in an Ironman was 3:41 but I was targeting 3:15-3:20. Training went really well and I think I hit around 80-85% of the sessions. Sometimes life got in the way. Race day came and I wasn’t sure I make the time but shouldn’t have worried. Training really paid off and I finished in 3:15.49. Thanks for the perfect plan.
Just in case it was in any doubt, running 80k/wk isn't going to cut it for 99% of athletes trying to break 2:30. There's a lot more to running that sort of time than raw fitness alone. Chapeau for giving it a crack though!
Agreed. I thought maybe they meant 80 miles, which would be better but still too little. But 80k is what you do for a fast half, it’s not enough for such a fast marathon.
Great vids guys. Just shows we are only human and trust your body when things aren’t right as it could of got naughty especially with havin to cover the millage of a marathon. Until next time 🤘🏼
Similar thing happened to me Mark in my Tris this season. Got diagnosed with a small internal hernia so awaiting surgery now. So annoying how this stuff happens without notice. Hope it’s nothing as bad and solid effort all
Just some advice as a 2:28 guy, highly recommend bumping up your mileage A LOT. Those easy miles might seem pointless during training, but they are so essential to building an aerobic base. I think I heard one of the guys mentioned he had a couple of weeks at 80k, which is far below any marathoner I've known that has broken 2:30. Generally, I think sub 2:30 runners should go for a minimum of 110k a week (only if they are also mixing lots of workouts, you also have to be very genetically gifted on this end) and upwards to 175k+ (if you are more of an aerobic person doing less workouts), holding the peak volume for at least 4-5 weeks. Going out the day after a hard workout and logging time on legs (rather than take the day off) even if you have to slow dramatically is how you build that endurance that helps you late in the race.
Still a honest days work…. Two sub 3.0… one smart man listening to his body… your still young.. I was 48 when all my PB happened, 72 mins for Half and 2.24.5 for my Tokyo Marathon… it will come but you have to do the work… more speed work then you think… keep pushing 😂👍🙏💪🥂
Sometimes you get "those days" where no matter the distance or sport your body and/or head just isn't in the game. They suck, especially when they coincide with an event but you just have to think that yup, that day is a write-off and look forward to the next day :) At the time I think it is easier said than done, but still get through and on to better days :) Well done all 3 of you, I'm still just not good enough to even complete a marathon but hey ho. Robin Hood Half next weekend for me and that'll do nicely :D
great video. I felt the heart break Mark. You were wise to pull out instead of them carrying you out. There are always other races. Well done Sam. pick a pace and stick to it.
Rough calculation is 90 seconds per km per hour you want for your finishing time. So a 2 hour marathon is about 3:00 km pace, 3 hour marathon is about 4:30 km pace, 4 hour is about 6:00 per km.
Sam will need to do a Video "how to avoid bleeding nipples"... Although saying that based upon this video maybe one of the others might be better placed to film it!
Well done boys! 2.30 its not easy .. that level u need have ur high mental level with u! I had big problem with that when I try 2.30 first time .. its took me 4 attemp to get under 2.30.. but when I well get under I run 2.23 and I start be stronger and stronger in my head .. after 2.23 next race I run 2.19 and my pb 2.14 two years after that and its was the era before this magic shoes 🤣👍🏻 it was 18 years ago!
Results of the olympic marathon in Tokyo; 1. Eliud Kipchoge in 2:08:38, 73. Hattori Yuma 02:30:08, 76. and last finisher Ivan Zarco Alvarez 2:44:36. So 02:30 is the time for the last finisher in an olympic marathon. Very tough approach for any talented hobby runner!
Sam killed it, but the blood in the shirt made it somewhat painful 😓 … Mark you made the right decision by pulling out and not hurting yourself any more. There will be more races to be run. Dehydration, lost too much salts maybe? I’m not going to pretend to be a pro, I’ve not even run a marathon 😅 but I bombed in a few races so I have some experience there. You learn more when things don’t go as planned.
I've ran around 30 marathons a few in the low 2:20's years back. It took a few 90 mile weeks and more marathons slower,one so slow that 3 Elvis Impersonators Passed me.What's interesting is that it's not not the 2:23 I remember as much as the Elvis Impersonators Passing me. That's messed up.
I'm a cyclist dipping my toe in running, I've got the endurance but looking forward to building on pace. I couldn't maintain these guys pace for 5 minutes
For anyone wondering how fast this is, it's a 17:45 5km pace held for 42km. Ridiculous!
I cant hold that for 5k either 😂
@@knightsofni0 yeah 16-17 🙈
My half mara without proper training was 1:56 and they did it in 2:40 damn that is fast!
@@neosho6428 my half mara is 2.30 🤣
@@wildan2136 we need to train more and properly my good sir hahaha
Loved this video - the build up, the nerves, the camaraderie, then the reality of the transition from early euphoria to latter pain cave. Honest effort from all three of you. Mark, you were wise to step aside. Better to listen to your body and save yourself for another day.
Couldn't agree more with this comment. Completely captured the highs and lows of a marathon. 😃 Great stuff 👍
Would love to see the 3 attempt the sub 2.30 again in April.
I'd love to see a bit more about Mark's problems on the day and some possible reasons for it. There are plenty of us watching with all kinds of ability levels, almost all WAY behind Mark, and yet we've all had days where even when we're relatively fresh it just isn't happening and you feel awful for most of an easyish run. I know what Mark went through here was worse than just not feeling good, but I'd love to hear more about what might be happening here for Mark, and more generally on those days where your body is screaming at you to just go home, and yet other days even after a few days of consecutive hard days or weeks you go out and you're flying, feel great, and can't get enough of it.
2:39 well done Sam, it sounds so much better than a 2:40. I sit on a 9 myself, and am very happy with it haha.
Great effort, guys. The course really looked quite hilly.
What I really love about this video is Mark showing that it is the hardest, but also the smartest move to pull out of a race, if you're not feeling well. I know we all put a lot of time and hard work into the training for our races, but in the end we are doing what we love, so it is never wasted. A PB is a great thing to aim for, but the number one goal always has to be coming home safely! Let's never forget that.
Agree 100%. The good thing about organised races is they give you a target to aim for. But the risk is always that you invest too much emotion in hitting peak form on a specific date. So important to listen to your body.
Great show, the marathon is like Mike Tyson “ Everyone has a plan until the race hits you back”.
Watching the morning of participating to IM 70.3 World! You guys are so fast… Good motivation!
Good luck!
Good luck today!
Great effort my favourite episode yet - to us you guys have super powers so it was great that this was so authentic; super athletes hurt as well. Thanks team
Glad you enjoyed it!
Well done to all of you! Thank you for sharing and keeping it real with your triumphs and struggles. Most of us have had those terrible days like Mark, but it sounds like it was the right thing to pull out. Being light-headed in a race can be flat out dangerous. Would love to hear a follow up if you figure out what happened.
Well done guys! I’m gutted for you, Mark! I’ve been in a similar place every race this year so I know exactly how you feel! 💔
Hang in there, your day will come sooner or later!
Good effort guys. A reflection on reality, challenges we all have in executing your training plan alongside normal life. If you do go ahead with the April event it would be nice to track your journey from training plan to finishing line. Great video coverage btw 👍
Props to you, I also ran this marathon (although not at the same fantastic pace) but I found it so so tough, and I know many others did as well. The heat, the hills at the very beginning, also getting a splitting pain in my ankle around 7th mile. I had to stop and walk around mile 16 and just didn’t stop crying. It only got worse. I finished it but the rest of it was a complete hobble and I felt so defeated. You showed a lot of courage listening to your body and stopping when you did. It’s only up from here!!
I’ve also found Brighton very difficult. There’s a lot of twists and turns, and small hills which all add up. Also aid stations not that great tbh.
Was an absolute honour & pleasure to meet and work with you guys on this challenge! Seeing behind the scenes and the dedication even without the right training was inspiring! Look forward to the next challenge! 🤷🏽♂️🏊🏽♂️🚴🏼♂️🏃🏾♂️
You lads are so cool, Sam is the Man, James is the Train and Mark had to Park - So inspirational to watch!
I went through exactly as you did as pulled up at the same place about 3mins behind you. Marathons are so unforgiving. Well done and there will be better days.
Well done! I can barely run 2km at that kind of pace, so a whole marathon is incredible! You guys make such a great team :)
Good honest coverage, thx lads, and well done to you all. Helps everyone see that marathons are not just another race
That was a bloody damn good video, it has everything that I really like about a race video. Interesting and not too long pre and post race coverage and some really nice shots from the race itself.
Fantastic filming and love the in race content, can’t get much closer to the action from the couch!
Cool I have my 1st marathon in the morning in Cairns Queensland Australia 🤘🏽🏃🏽♂️🤗
how did you go
Your preparations combined sound like an ideal pre-race situation to me: pace and hitting key sessions (Mark), overall good perception of your own body and muscular memory that still remembers the routine of a pro athlete (James) and mileage (Sam). Sad it was an individual event and not a team effort :). Thank you for showing the highs a n d lows.
Great effort Mark! Hope to see you back at this and SMASH IT!!!
Love this! Thank you for putting this together. Really gets me in the mood ( and some good reality checks too, of the challenges ahead) for my third marathon of the year and the one where I’m going to finally shave off the 52 seconds and get under 3.29:59!
Well Done guys.. Come Back Stronger Mark. Sam killed it top5 finish
Wow! The quality of this was top notch. Nice work gentleman!
I really enjoyed watching this & I hope we get to see more of these (body & mind willing). Absolutely gutted for Mark, we’ve all had those days when your just not feeling it :(
Great work! So realistic too, everything from the pacing conversation before the race and all through the race captured the true essence!
Next attempt I would enjoy a few more episodes. Cheers guys. Great effort
Pretty remarkable that you guys were talking through it, thanks for letting us follow along your journey!
So gutted for you, Mark. Even though the beginning of the video shows the clip of you walking, I was kinda hoping for there to be a plot twist sorta thing in the end. It was still a massive attempt, so kudos to you on that, and to James and Sam for their respective spectacular attempts too. Hope the 3 of you give it another shot in April. I'll be rooting for you!
Well done guys on the race and a good little series, it’s seriously hard work keeping to pace on a hot day!
Well done to all of you. Great video and very honest. Just shows even the best have tough days where it doesn’t go as expected. Well done again x
Love it! Such fast guys, I could never imagine running as fast as you, but the reality of life. You're all amazing!
one of the most inspiring videos I have seen. Good effort guys, well done
I’m actually shocked at the vitriol in the comment sections. Some people take themselves way too seriously. Great video guys! Good luck for the next one. Have subscribed 👍🏼
Very interesting journey guys, thank you for sharing it and showing us all how it s done and prepped. Cheers!
Well done gents, it would be great to see you attempt the race again next year. I’ve got a marathon on 25th Sep but my target pace is considerably slower.
Well done boets, including the camera peeps and video editors.
I am going to do the same attempt sunday. HCA marathon in Denmark. It's my first race ever. Keep on the good work!
Well done guys and congrats to you all! I will join my first marathon someday!
Great effort guys. Right decision to pull out Mark, you really didn’t look well when you stopped.
Very inspiring journey. The preparation might not have been there but you still gave it a go and did amazing!! Sam is fast!
Great video. Well done, lads! Sorry for you Mark but I'm glad you decided to stop. There will be another race, another marathon but you have just one body. Loved the camaraderie, that is your real victory. Well done again 💪
Loved this. With highs there must be lows. Very brave but really appreciate you shared it, esp Mark 🙏🙏👍👍
that's one hell of a goal you guys. great effort!
Another great video, nice and honest. Would have been good to see race day morning prep as I’m sure it would vary between the three of you. 🤙
Well done guys! I didn't realise you were doing Brighton until I saw you in Preston Park before the race! I ran a 10 minute PB but it was a warm day!
Well done guys! Big congrats on taking on the challenge!
Really relating to this vid. I have London in 2 weeks. My goal is sub 3 but I think I’m realistically at 3:10-3:15 fitness. Really unsure whether to have a crack and risk a blow-up or be slightly more conservative.
So sorry for Mark. Last half marathon I was doing great in the first 10k. I started getting stomach pain after 13k. After 17k, the pain was unbearable, so I stopped. That was a terrible feeling 😐
Amazing job, guys. Fantastic video, and fantastic performances. It's great to see how you young, superfit athletes go through the same dark places that us vets (V50 here) do (including the nipple rash!). I missed my PB target by a long chalk - wheels came off at 18-19 miles and just couldn't keep even a jog going after that. I'm glad James said it was hot - as a Brit it seems like any sustained sunshine seems "hot", but James is used to proper heat! If you get an answer to Mark's issues, please let us know: I get that "feeling icy cold" thing when going long runs. Whether it's nutrition, hydration, or just not enough HTFU-ing, I'd love to get it cracked! Sam - not 2h30m, but seriously: chapeau, Sir. Good luck to you all in 2022!
Great video all. Both in front of cam and on the creative side.
Thanks so much!
Great video showing the real challenge of marathon racing for a PB👏👏 I’m guessing that Mark was actually suffering from heat exhaustion as the only time I felt lightheaded and started shivering on a hot day was on a 31C race day and I definitely wasn’t dehydrated since if was only a half marathon. Thanks for the video series and best of luck with your retrying next April 👍
12:45 I wasn't ready for the feels 😂
#gtncoachescorner Not a question but more some feedback. Just ran the Valencia Marathon and used the GTN plan for my preparation. I’ve done 5 IMs but never a stand-alone marathon so this was about seeing what I could do. My previous best in an Ironman was 3:41 but I was targeting 3:15-3:20. Training went really well and I think I hit around 80-85% of the sessions. Sometimes life got in the way. Race day came and I wasn’t sure I make the time but shouldn’t have worried. Training really paid off and I finished in 3:15.49. Thanks for the perfect plan.
Just in case it was in any doubt, running 80k/wk isn't going to cut it for 99% of athletes trying to break 2:30. There's a lot more to running that sort of time than raw fitness alone. Chapeau for giving it a crack though!
Agreed. I thought maybe they meant 80 miles, which would be better but still too little. But 80k is what you do for a fast half, it’s not enough for such a fast marathon.
Great challenge and video, I really felt for Mark looked like you went to a dark place but your be back
Great vids guys. Just shows we are only human and trust your body when things aren’t right as it could of got naughty especially with havin to cover the millage of a marathon. Until next time 🤘🏼
Similar thing happened to me Mark in my Tris this season. Got diagnosed with a small internal hernia so awaiting surgery now. So annoying how this stuff happens without notice. Hope it’s nothing as bad and solid effort all
Good video. These are my favourite type of vids
wow !! it is my dream time , beautifull inspiring
Just some advice as a 2:28 guy, highly recommend bumping up your mileage A LOT. Those easy miles might seem pointless during training, but they are so essential to building an aerobic base. I think I heard one of the guys mentioned he had a couple of weeks at 80k, which is far below any marathoner I've known that has broken 2:30. Generally, I think sub 2:30 runners should go for a minimum of 110k a week (only if they are also mixing lots of workouts, you also have to be very genetically gifted on this end) and upwards to 175k+ (if you are more of an aerobic person doing less workouts), holding the peak volume for at least 4-5 weeks. Going out the day after a hard workout and logging time on legs (rather than take the day off) even if you have to slow dramatically is how you build that endurance that helps you late in the race.
What an inspiring video, well shot too! Really enjoyed it.
Still a honest days work…. Two sub 3.0… one smart man listening to his body… your still young.. I was 48 when all my PB happened, 72 mins for Half and 2.24.5 for my Tokyo Marathon… it will come but you have to do the work… more speed work then you think… keep pushing 😂👍🙏💪🥂
Awesome video and very solid efforts! Well done.
Awesome video guys. You've got to comeback in April to put the record straight!
Love the video thanks for that effort
Makes you realise how terrific is kipchoge's sub-2h marathon. Seems to be a huge difference between the strongest of all and the average athletes
2:30 marathon average lmao you’re funny
I hope to see Dan Lloyd running with you next time. 😀
Inspiration - thanks legends
Good job men, better luck next time Mark.
Sometimes you get "those days" where no matter the distance or sport your body and/or head just isn't in the game. They suck, especially when they coincide with an event but you just have to think that yup, that day is a write-off and look forward to the next day :) At the time I think it is easier said than done, but still get through and on to better days :) Well done all 3 of you, I'm still just not good enough to even complete a marathon but hey ho. Robin Hood Half next weekend for me and that'll do nicely :D
Fantastic stuff guys!
You guys are awesome congrats to you all 💕💜
Super great video. Marathon is always hard, painful and fun.
Great video and we’ll done guys
Great job Team!!
great video. I felt the heart break Mark. You were wise to pull out instead of them carrying you out. There are always other races. Well done Sam. pick a pace and stick to it.
Rough calculation is 90 seconds per km per hour you want for your finishing time. So a 2 hour marathon is about 3:00 km pace, 3 hour marathon is about 4:30 km pace, 4 hour is about 6:00 per km.
Amazing video🙌
Go you heroes 👍
Sam will need to do a Video "how to avoid bleeding nipples"...
Although saying that based upon this video maybe one of the others might be better placed to film it!
Doing great ! Keep the good work. :)
Good Effort.....
Here I am trying to get a sub 2hr half …
What solid food did they have at the rest tables? I saw you guys taking on gels, we're those provided?
nice vide, I found it very motivating 💕
Glad you liked it!!
Well done boys! 2.30 its not easy .. that level u need have ur high mental level with u! I had big problem with that when I try 2.30 first time .. its took me 4 attemp to get under 2.30.. but when I well get under I run 2.23 and I start be stronger and stronger in my head .. after 2.23 next race I run 2.19 and my pb 2.14 two years after that and its was the era before this magic shoes 🤣👍🏻 it was 18 years ago!
Results of the olympic marathon in Tokyo; 1. Eliud Kipchoge in 2:08:38, 73. Hattori Yuma 02:30:08, 76. and last finisher Ivan Zarco Alvarez 2:44:36. So 02:30 is the time for the last finisher in an olympic marathon. Very tough approach for any talented hobby runner!
Sam killed it, but the blood in the shirt made it somewhat painful 😓 … Mark you made the right decision by pulling out and not hurting yourself any more. There will be more races to be run. Dehydration, lost too much salts maybe? I’m not going to pretend to be a pro, I’ve not even run a marathon 😅 but I bombed in a few races so I have some experience there. You learn more when things don’t go as planned.
How can you look so relaxed running that pace 😂. I would be breathing hard and could probably make it 8-10k tops.
well done guys. 👍
How did you feel after the mile 10 marker when the course suddenly got long. Would be interesting to hear your comments on that in the video.
I've ran around 30 marathons a few in the low 2:20's years back. It took a few 90 mile weeks and more marathons slower,one so slow that 3 Elvis Impersonators Passed me.What's interesting is that it's not not the 2:23 I remember as much as the Elvis Impersonators Passing me. That's messed up.
20:30 yes, the Brighton Marathon II 🙂.
more running...thats y we r here
Super film
As you'll know by now, the course was slightly over distance so the times were even better than they initially seemed to be
I'm a cyclist dipping my toe in running, I've got the endurance but looking forward to building on pace. I couldn't maintain these guys pace for 5 minutes
Build it up, you'll get there. Welcome to the fun world of running 🏃♀️
Sounds like dehydration, the dizziness and feeling cold that Mark had