E-Bikes Part 1 - Front Hub vs Rear Hub vs Central Motor. What Works Best?
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*Works great my **Latest.Bike** I have a bad knee so I still get exercise but the bike assists me. I am a big guy so I didn’t think it would go as fast but it works great.*
Retired prof here...very complete presentation, nice video work, perfect speaking cadence and good grasp of our language and dialect. Thank you for all that.
This lifelong biker just growing into triathalon shape appreciates all your insight. Your comparisons help me understand your topic. Your top end bikes and wheels really make this sport exciting for me, thank you again.
Please keep up the great work. You should be an engineer. You would be a great one!
Ive got a front wheel drive kit on my bike (52v, modded controller doing around 2KW/40A) and its great fun to ride. But it definitely has its pros and cons vs rear hub motors:
Cons:
-Takes a some getting used to. If you ride a pedal bike or a motorbike, it feels strange when you first notice the front wheel pulling you instead of the back wheel pusjing you. This doesnt take long before it feels natural.
-Accelerating while steering can be a little tricky or even impossible especially in the wet. This is because of...
-Wheelspin. At 1000W you only have to worry about wheelspin; if its wet weather, if your front tyre is bald and/or you try steering while accelerating at max power. At 2000w its pretty easy to wheelspin unless its dry and you have good tread on your tryre.
This is all mainly because there is very little weight on the front compared to the rear of the bike.
And due to all of the above...
-Tyres wear out very quickly(bs normal front tyres) Partly due to the extra weight from the motor + extra speed + wheelspin. More wheelspin = bald tyre =more wheelspin=... etc
-Wheelies are basically impossible now.
There are a few more cons but nothing major
Pro's:
+Front wheel drive is actually really fun to ride once you get used to it, and at over 1000w or more it feels great having the front wheel pull you down dips and up hills and even out of corners if there is a burm or just enough grip.
+ with a bit of pedalling, front wheel drive (FWD) becomes all wheel drive (AWD).
Having an AWD full suspension mountain bike is amazing when it comes to rock crawling, hill climbing, pulling through mud, sand and pretty much everything you can think of. With a big wide nobbly tyre you van go almost anywhere when you just pedal a little.
I cant think of any more pro's tbh but just with those 2 vs all those cons i would still pick front hub over rear hub every time.
As for the third option of Mid drive, I would choose that over front hub if cost wasnt a concern. Its the best of both worlds except you are trading AWD for Gears, and if im honest I'd rather have the use of gears than AWD no matter how fun it is.
But as my font hub setup cost a quarter of a mid drive (when i built it), im more than happy with it, for now.
Mid drives have many moving parts inside the motor. Hub drives have as few as one moving part, thus better potential reliability. Thanks for the great explanation of the three systems.
JUst to add. Mid-drive/Central drive cost more than double than rear or front hub drive. If chain snaps on central drive, you have to push your bike home, or use taxi. If chain snaps in rear or front drive, you're croosing home, because motor is turning your wheel. I like your chanel. Keep up the good work.
Exactly
I would just keep a small chain tool and link kit with me if going too far outside civilization. It’s an easy fix on the side of the road.
Great one ! I just want to chime in on my experience after owning bicycles ,all three ways of propelling ( Front,rear,mid) After getting use to all 3 drivetrains ( 300 miles approx)
* Front drive (250w) Be careful when you turn the steering on loose gravel when accelerating. Traction not ideal under a couple of circumstances. Perfectly ok on a nice paved road. Sometimes unnatural feeling of being dragged from a invisible towing machine.
* Rear Drive (800w) My favourite. Climbs much better then front drive, bodyweight distributed right on top of rear wheel drive , no slippage and a very natural acceleration very easy to manage. The most easy peasy. Get yourself a geraless Rear hub motor ( They cost half of a middrive) And you have a reliable simple servicable machine. I have a vehicle with a 3000 watt rear drive power plant and external controller .Its still going strong after constant 2 years of use in snow,rain and heat. It is put in to heavy duty transportation work, and never failed me. After all the gearless rear hub is made of only 2 componets Magnets and Copper coils
* Mid drive (Bafang BBS02) Even after programming not easy to handle. Not the fluent organic feeling you have from a rear hub-motor. Its either to much push, or to little. Very much work with gears and cadence to balance a good ride. In community rides you will end up riding in 2 or 3 gears of 10 and stick to power level 3 (of 5) still its temperamental and unreliable in a quirky kind of way. I broke 1 new chain on a short uphill (Chainline ok) Its a lot of power on the chain and cassette .You feel very much that you are taming a machine working against you . Bafang did a very poor job programming the controller , and I will avoid the brand next time. Changed the chainring to 48 teeth (From 44) Cadence is a lot better, only to find out that i needed to put on 3mm distance ring on the motor shaft from keeping the chainring rubbing in to the frame. Now my chainline is F***cd and I can use 6 gears of 10 safely (Without the chain hopping off the ring)
I have NOT had the pleasure to test out the top tier electric bikes with Bosch,Shimano steps Mid Drives, so I can not judge the mid drives ,just on the Bafang. That would be pretentious of me.
My best tip : A rear hub gearless 800 watt motor and a simple 6-7-8 gear transmission. For commuting and pleasure . If you are a person that dont want to get into the tech and just ride a bike like you did when you were little, its the way to go.
With a cheap chinese mid drive you are presented with a lot more mechanics that could brake. The tension on the chain/gears ,the very poor implemented programming of the internal controller. The much more required servicing , and the documented problems with moisture getting into the housing and fry delicate electronics controller systems, should be taking into account into a bike that stands still more often then other alternatives.
Direct drive is the way to go...gears on gear drives are plastic...somethings gotta give on those then you have to open them up for service.
Thank you for your valuable observations! What you say about the benefits of a direct drive rear hub makes good sense. I’m about to purchase my first e-bike and you have made the decision a lot simpler for me! F.Y.I. I’m giving up my motorcycle for this, (in my opinion) just as much fun, healthier, safer recreational two wheeled fun. Tired of being “invisible” to unskilled dolts in cars, or a target for the aggressive “Alpha Hotels” who would just as soon run you down, because the faster they drive the better drivers they are?
Which 3000 watt work horse rear gear less set up do u recommend ?
I've had all 3 types due to theft by people who know the police in the UK won't respond even if a GPS tracker is watching it dissapear. For riding through the city over potholes and cycle lanes with tree roots breaking through them I found the front wheel hub drive to be the best provided your wheels are 26" or more. The wheel climbs up and out curbs and holes pulling the rear wheel up behind it.
Having the power behind tends to push you over the handlebars when the front wheel hits anything vertical. It also helps keep control over diesel spills, especially on roundabouts where the frontal wheel is likely to lowside you under a bus if it's light and being pushed. Riding in London is hazardous so you need as much help as you can get, and as to whether they are legal I don't care. Breaking the law with a 500w motor is better than breaking my bones because I can't pass a taxi before it does a U-turn and T-bones me.
After building my own ebike from a hardtail mtb with a rigid fork, I know understand now how important it is for your front end to not weigh less than the rear. Very sketchy cornering because the front tire isn't getting enough weight down onto it.
I ride nothing but mid drives, and love them! I would recommend that they benefit from a narrow wide chain ring. The narrow wide refers to the tooth size of the chain ring which varies from narrow to wide and prevents most chain slipping. The default Baffang chain ring is quite large and prone to slipping. A Lekkie Bling Ring or Luna Eclipse can help with the chain offset as well as slipping by bringing the chain closer to the bike frame than the default Baffang chain ring.
I have all 3 drive systems on 3 e bikes. I have traveled 4000 miles at an average of 4.6 mph.
I found the mid drive too fast for my dog's. I find the front wheel drive the most fun.
that’s light jogging...
CHrome- That may be a light jog but to a small dog or a dog with short legs, that is a lot of exertion to keep up with the bike. I used to have big Black labs. 4.6 mph was a sprint for them and they could do it all day at that speed.
@@Animalwon well maybe the small dog can get in a carriage. Sounds like a brisk walk would be dragging them.
I like the front motor design better. We have one called GeoOrbital and one called the Urbanext (which I later found out is an iMortor). I like these because we can easily swap these out and put the original wheels back on if we wanted to ride the bike normally. Don't have to mess with the chain or the gears or anything.
totally agree.
good post , im just going for front wheel kit but didnt think about switching back , but i see it makes sense to carry spare in car and if motor ever fails its a quick switch over- and carry on manually .Thank you
I've converted my wife's and my fairly lightweight but straight barred road bikes to electric using a kit that looks very similar to the front wheel drive option shown here. We're both very experienced cyclists who have been commuting, racing and cycletouring for a long time (too long becuase we are both in our late 70s and are finding our local hills a bit too hard!)
The 10S (36v) Lithium ion battery is carried in a special pannier frame at the rear and since our touring bikes have both mudguard and carrier eyes it suits us perfectly. We have pedal assist (which I think is compulsory in the UK) of 5 levels and the motor only works when the pedals are turning. We get a huge range (easily 100km) because we only use the motor when really necessary and pedal ourselves most of the time.
The advantage is that the conversion is simple to do (I'm a retired electronic design engineer) and we can have bikes we like already. My wife's is a Marin and mine is based on a Kinesis frame I built myself. We both have triple chainsets. I like the idea of two wheel drive :)
that sounds like a perfect solution for my Wife and I who are in our mid 60s . We have road race bikes that we would like to keep but now would appreciate some electric assist to enable us to continue cycling. Like you I intend to use front wheel drive
I would really appreciate it if you could tell me the components that you used to convert your bikes to give me a starting point. Happy riding best wishes Johnny
Our components came from a firm called Cyclotricity and they were very helpful. The cost was about £500/bike including the rear carrier and a 11 ah battery (the most expensive part). You get all the wiring loom as well as a pair of brake levers with disable switches which I didn't bother with because they aren't very good quality and brake lever qua;ity contributes a lot to braking efficiency.
I've recently acquired an Airnimal Rhino folding bike with 20" wheels and a PandaE central drive motor/bottom bracket unit. It has a Shimano 8 speed hub gear. I find it much inferior to Cyclotricity front wheel drive system. The seems to be an exponential curve to the pedal assist in that the first few steps give little assistance and only the maximum level helps much. It also feels very heavy but that may be the bike rather than the drive system.
Yesterday, a friend ordered a front wheel drive system from Cyclotricity on my recommendation and I'll be fitting it to his bike
thank you for the quick response BP. After hours of searching I finally came across Cyclotricity myself this afternoon so its quite a coincidence its the same company you used. i spoke to a guy called Eric who was very helpful.
Their webpage is a little confusing but they are clearly happy to sell just part of the components of a kit which really suits me.
I wouldn't have any use for the brake switches either and I can manage without the dashboard too . I wouldn't be able to read it anyway without wearing reading glasses and then i wouldn't be able to see where I was riding lol. I also wouldn't require the PAS either .
I'm intending to construct my own battery pack out of used 18650 batteries of which I have many and it will be an interesting project for me.
Thank you once again for your excellent post and your recommendations.
Another distinction between types of hub motors - there are geared hub motors and non-geared hub motors. My experience is that the geared (rear) hub motor offers less resistance to pedaling. The non-geared hub motor has the capability of acting as a generator (regen). On my Rad City eBike, unfortunately, the regen only works when you apply the brakes. I wish I could recharge my battery by pedaling, or simply coasting and going downhill.
Good Info - especially for OEM (store bought) bikes. Having built all three types, here are a few points regarding choosing rear hub (RH), mid drive (MD) or front hub (FH), and if you are seeking to build (DIY) an ebike: a) On some mid drive (MD) kits (e.g. Cyclone 3000 watt MD from Lunacycles.com) you can have a double front chain ring setup (mine is 44t & 32t), b) Top speed of rear hub (RH) is ultimately highest over the other two types but MD has better hill climbing and torque. c) RH can do regenerative braking, but not MD. but regen braking is not worth it. d) MD setup will eat chains and rear cassettes. That's why I use the tougher/way cheaper/more common Shimano 7 speed cassette/chain. 5-6-7-8 speed (all use same chain) are cheaper to replace than 9-10-11 speed components (all proprietary) which are lighter and better for high end bicycles, but cost too much, don't last as long and harder to maintain. For ebikes, you don't need that many speeds and lightness. 7 speed chains (same chain) are way tougher, cheaper to replace and maintain, thus better suited for e-bikes. e) I love my mid-drive because I can use the gears and has tons of torque and good speed, is lighter than RH, and much more interesting and fun. But if you want a good, fast low maintenance, long distance commuter, I think you're better off with a 48 volt RH with PAS setup: (www.aliexpress.com/item/32684555943.html), a 52 volt battery (at least 12 amp hours for 30-40 mile range), on a hard tail, triangle frame with front suspension and 180 mm front disk brake and Schwalbe Marathon 700c x 38c 80psi tires. I'd cap it off with a sprung saddle (Selle Royal Drifter), and/or suspension seat post. f) My 36 volt Front hub (FH) motor is 35-40 llbs, and is too heavy in the front (unbalanced and affects steering). IMO, FH motors should be no more than 25 lbs. SickBiker's wife's FH bike is nicely balanced. It's probably 250w, a light front hub probably good for Class 1 and 2 (max 20mph/32kph) which is really all you need in the street..
thank you. which one is easier to setup? I have trek 7.2 FX? or i may put it on the Trek Marlin.
Way more informative compared to other similar videos. So many people have just jumped onto the mid motor bandwagon. This video is far more contextualized. Good job!
Good information, I never thought of weight distribution, I had a rear hub ebike with a pannier mounted battery, I was more than happy with the performance, but 3 spokes got damaged and it wasnt easy getting replacements, which is why I'm contemplating Central power, this leaves the wheels standard.
after testing mid drive bikes and back hub motors, I found the E-Joe Epik with rear motor felt more like the bmx I am used to. The mid drive felt to center heavy and I couldnt pop up the front as easy to avoid bumps. just my experience. E bikes are so much fun and a great way to commute, if you can do it safely.
I've used a front drive e-bike during last summer, now I have a mid motor one which I built myself. What people forget about front drive and I don't hear about it in ANY videos: the added weight heavily influences braking performance. It feels as it just doesn't want to stop so quickly even with quality disk brakes. I felt a lot of difference after changing to mid drive, it brakes pretty well even with V-brakes. What I loved about the front drive is what you mentioned, it's basically all-wheel drive :) With a good motor I think that's the quickest one when starting from standstill. I was regularly shooting off from traffic lights leaving cars and smaller scooters behind. With mid-drive I need to shift a lot more and the process is just not so smooth. You need more gears for mid-drive, I think with front motor even a 3-speed IGH is sufficient. But overall the mid-drive bike feels much more natural, cornering and braking performance is similar to a normal bike. So I love it even more, only missing those quick starts :)
I have the Bafang middrive on a 8 speed hardtail mountain bike. I feel I have more than enough torque to be the quickest across the intersection. I have to be careful as I have a throttle and can easily pop a wheelie if I'm not careful. On the contrary, with 1000W (lunacycle.com kit), I feel I have too many gears as I have to shift often, but the kit has so much torque I can probably handle less gears like a 3 gear IGH hub. This is with a 46 tooth front chain ring, and not the 52 tooth which normally comes with the kit.
Brandon Yu ...an ebike with hub gears sounds like a great combo but I'd be cautious about putting a 1000W through one, Sturmey Archer advise against using their hub gears on tandem cycles which leads me to suspect they're designed to handle the power output of a single rider. The same probably goes for Shimano. You'd get away with it if you had a front drive hub though. Any thoughts on that?
I'm going to stick with my mid drive as I have hills to contend with, and like you said it's better balance and I like the maintenance aspects much better. I'll keep an eye on drivetrain wear for sure.
bihus2 - Even with the gears?
Excellent presentation! You are the only one that you have pointed out the major disadvantage of the mid drive. The fact that the front triplet ring chain was replaced by just one ring chain which means when you exhaust the power of the battery you just forget going back home if you have some steep hills in your way to home. So very good and to the point presentation!
You can have a well geared ebike or a well geared pedal bike but you can't have both. 1x drivetrain are very popular now, if you're concerned about gearing feo steep hills, run an 11-36 casette and a 30T chain ring. You'll have a top speed of about 40km/h at 120 rpm cadence and a low of 6km/h at 60 rpm. Your bigger problem will be that you're pedalling a pretty heavy bike, so don't run your battery out...you shouldn't be running it down past 20% anyway if you want to maximize its life.
I have a front mounted 250W on a 26". I have ridden a mid mount but didn't like the engagement with the gearing and shifting. Doesn't feel as natural as being able to relax the torque on the derailleur like you can with your legs.
Haven't been on a rear motor mount yet but, I can speak to having a front mount: Yes it is a little awkward with the tugging from the front end but, like the video says, if you learn how to distribute your weight, it has great advantages over the other two. 1) It is easiest to install. 2) it doesn't beat up on the drive train (get a torque bar for the front forks!) and 3) If you learn how to ride it really well, you can actually lean it much further into a corner with the pedals raised on the side you're cornering into using the throttle to "pull" you out of the corner than a mid mount setup where you're forced to pedal, or slow down through a tight corner. & 4) My favorite. It is technically AWD / Two-Wheel Drive. So while I have the "onroad" kit through Dillinger. I have purchased a pair or Schwable Magic Marry tires. The traction in mud and snow is remarkably good. Losing traction? Pedal harder! It's just a matter of knowing what you can expect from the motor and what gear you should be in before attempting a mud puddle or snow covered hill. Up hill climbs are pretty easy. Put the drive-train in low gearing and the front motor in high power and you'll be pulling up stuff your rear wheel would lose traction on forcing you to jump off.
Only major disadvantages are, you should NEVER put a front motor on aluminum forks, unless professionally installed with a torque bar or two with a lower watt rated motor (I'd say 250, max). And with only intentions being city driving on relatively smooth surfaces. I have a torque bar on my steel front forks myself with proper washers to be as safe as possible. The motor torquing out of the front forks is the last thing anyone wants to experience! Lastly, if you weigh north of 160 - 180 lbs my GUESS is that the FWD setup is not going to be a good fit for you as I don't recommend anything larger than a 250watt motor on the front forks. And even with that you have to learn how to shift given the circumstances. Think of your legs as being the source of torque and the motor being the source of horsepower. I have a thumb throttle on my setup and also highly recommend you install one (if legally able to do so where you live) regardless of where you prefer your motor to be mounted (front hub or read hub). Lastly, my setup is probably one of the faster, as it doesn't take much foot torque to assist the motor in getting you cruising, then you just upshift to a higher gear while the motor pulls, and then you really start working in sync with the front hub.
I'm fairly confident my setup gets me going about 25-28mph on flat ground with intermediate level pedaling. I think 21mph is legal limit in my home state. I have my system tricked out to thinking I have an 18” tire setup while it's actually 26”. So the display is only really good for mileage and pedal assist but that doesn't bother me. I've heard people say "wow that things fast" when I come cruising by them at full speed. In which case, invest in a good brake / brakes setup as well like I did and try to have the brake cutoffs installed on your brake levers if possible, for added safety. These bikes are a lot of fun. Maybe you'll grow a little bored of it like I did but it's a lot of fun to have the option to just hop on, on a nice day, and cruise about wherever you want soaking up your surroundings while also not being majorly limited as to where you can go like with a car or street bike, even.
Thanks bro. I understood that front wheel hub motor is good for me I don't want to disturb the rear wheel. 👍😃
I love ebikes, they are great ride and fun to do, they are expensive and heavy, and batteries can be damaged by the rain very easily. They are not waterproof.
Thank you for a very informative video. I am in the market, whether a kit (likely) or store bought. I learned a lot from your video and am now leaning toward front drive.
For me, front wheel hub motor is the by far the best choice for the person who just wants to use the bike for commuting at reasonable speed and minimum effort. It's simpler, cheaper, can be fitted in minutes, and means that power is going to the back wheel via pedals, and front via electric giving all wheel drive. The caveat is that power should be limited to 500W to prevent wheel slip.
i watched this a year ago deciding on what bike to get. now i got 800Miles on the Rear Hub motor and i appreciate this review even more. you explained it just purely based on experience
You did not mention for me the most important reason why I prefer the mid drive. And that is that you can select a gear to suit the motor giving you fantastic torque up hills or speed on the flat.
Mid is superior
Thank you so much for an excellent vidio and explanation of the different merits of each bike. I have ordered a front hub kit for my bike and am pleased to hear that your wife likes it. I was uncertain about which kit to order but now I feel more confident in my choice
about the weight distribution, you need to calculate your weight as well, cause e bike only weights around 20-30 kgs, while the rider's weight can range anywhere from 45-90. And most of that weight is distributed to the rear wheel due to the geometry
117kg
I have had a mid drive bike for 4 years now. I like the idea that it uses the gears as well. This means I can get higher speeds. I don't like that you have to turn off the throttle when changing gears. When my friends use the bike they change the gears with the motor on and you can hear the strain it puts on the chain and gears. Yes he is right that the chain come off easier. Recently my chain snapped while 10km away from home. This is because a LOT of stress and strain is applied to the chain. Mind you this happened after 2 years of use. The down side is I had to walk the bike home. If it was a front or rear drive I could have at least rode home on electricity. I have never ridded a front or rear motorized bike, but the front one worries me that the forts are not designed to pull the whole weight of the bike and rider. Keeping in mind that forks can snap. My next bike is going to be rear hub drive. I'm not sure if it will be better, but I think it will be less maintenance and less stress on the bike. I think I will use a fatter wheel to cope with the increased weight.
it sucks but learning propper shifting technique doesent hurt the same applies to a real motorcycle
I've test driven a mid-drive with a SHIMANO 8-speed hub. Interesting! It was a one-off, as they went to derailleurs after that. The hub shifted by battery, the same one that powered the motor. Bad idea! Anyway, I bought a Sondors Thin single speed. What did I learn? Get multiple gearing in case you find yourself grinding it out due to a dead battery. Take his advice in this regards for sure!. Have tires larger than 700x35. They don't have to be huge, but thin tires have no business on a heavy electric bike. Front suspension isn't a bad idea. He doesn't get into the fact that some mid-drive bikes are power assist only. I rode my Sondors 99% of the time peddling. BUT... there were times where that thumb throttle was just the ticket.
This is the theory i understand;
Mid motors help your legs push the pedals at the same speed you pedal. So depending on what gear you are in, depends on how hard the motor works WITH your legs efforts and feels natural at ALL SPEEDS. The mid motor turns slow on low gears and fast at high gears same as your legs...
Hub motors however simply TURN ON to 1 preset speed (on/off only). So if you are on a high speed gear but at slow speed it puts much stress on the motor! And opposite if you are at top speed the hub motor is not turning any faster.
Thanks for the optimistic approach. Really enjoy your versatile channel. Greets from Austria
I love the one with the chunky tyres, with the motor and the centre it looks the best, when I haven't even watched the video yet, I am only speaking on what they look like,
I have a fat tire, rear hub, with a 720 watt 48 volt battery, front suspension fork and suspension seat. It's been great. I don't have a drivers licence and I don't need to get a transit pass anymore. Max level pedal assist is kinda overkill. I can go 40kph with no effort at all. I haven't tested it on mountain trails yet.
I have a factory built Pedago rear hub, and a home kit front hub bike. Both are great. We don't need to split hairs.
I have had all three and the mid drive by far is the one I love the most. That what I’ be been using for last coup of years. You forgot to tell people about the drag on some hub motors.
I've had a rear hub drive for a few years, it's good but fixing flats is a bit of a nightmare. I've recently picked up a mid-drive and what really sold me on it was the ability to peddle the bike with no power, it feels like a regular bike. With the hub drive you could peddle it unpowered but only in the lower gears, mid-drive no problem, again just like a regular bicycle. I'm also finding the range on the mid-drive is much better than the hub drive.
Mid is superior
Mid drives can have multiple chain rings, there are adapters for the Bafang in 74mm, 110mm and 130mm BCD. The 110 and 130 allow for 2 chain rings, though I have yet to see a 3 chainring adapter yet.
There are also shift sensors that act like a break cut-off that turn off the motor for a second as you shift to prevent damage to the cogs.
A hub motor with the right controller will also give you regenerative braking ie it will charge the battery when you are going down hill crank motors dont give any brake assist
For someone like myself looking to get into the E-bike community this video was very informative. Thank you.
The front hub motors has one big advantage it's a two wheel drive pedaling on the rear wheel and engine on the front Wheel and if the Chain is broken you can ride home With motor assistance
No you can’t, there is no resistance for the censor to pick up if the chain isn’ t on
+Da Wae
You do not need resistance in case of a rotation sensor. Many front hub-motors have rotation sensors (not all though). You are right in case of a pedal force sensor.
Czar Zenana ooh I just know my bike doesn’t work it just doesn’t do anything, it is an older ebike though
Berkant Balci just hit the throttle.
With mid drive motors you can use the gears..not limited to hub wheel motor speed
Simply increase voltage on a hub motor and you increase speed and torque. What are you going to do when that chain brakes? Push? Besides, a mid drive will only go 35 to 40 mph tops. My hub motor will do 45 on flat roads and 25 to 30 uphill. The fact is that a hub motor is three times as strong and reliable than any mid drive. Lol i do not even have to pedal uphill to go 30.
For the mid-drive the most simple Bafang/8fun type is chosen. This motor works without a torque sensor. All brand types like Bosch/Brose/Yamaha are working torque controlled this means that the motor is adding a certain percentage of power to you own power. In Bosch CX it is normally 50/100/200/300 percent of your own power. The new EMTB mode is is adding a flexible support between 100 and 300 percent depending how powerful you are pedaling. All this is not possible with the simple Chinese motors which work only with a preset speed and as long as you are pedaling the system tries to keep this speed. I tested all different kinds of drives before I bought my ebike with a Bosch CX drive. The rear drive is also good as long as you do not climb mountains and as long the motor has a torque sensing like the Bionix or NeoDrives have. As already told the problem is if you are going up a hill the rpm of the motor will go down as you get slower and the speed of the motor will also go down and this ruins the efficiency of the used electric motors. This means uphill your rear motor produces more heat than support and this when you need the support the most. This is the reason why most professional companies are in the mean time offering mid drives.
But if you are not going uphill too often and the slope is not too strong a rear drive is also OK.
Sorry for the long statement but I couldn't make it shorter.
You should try the Bafang Max Ultra Mid drive. It beats all the Bosch/Brose/Yamaha system hands down.
Jason Hoo According to what I found on information it is again not torque controlled only cadence and speed. Additionally it has 500 or 1000 Watts and these can not be used in the EU legally. I have no doubt that this is a powerful motor but I want a legal drive system otherwise you can get into big trouble in case of an accident and the authorities at least here in Germany have no sense of humor at all if you have an accident with a illegal system. All costs have to be bore by you and no insurance will cover a penny.
So having a legal system is mandatory for me.
I have a Bafang BBS01 250w and its legal
First video I've seen on YT that they gave the PRO's and Con's about their E-Bike.
Most only say what's good about their E-Bikes and never tell anybody how difficult it would be to peddle their hub motor bike if it lost power.
The Mid Drive E-Bike never tell you how often you have to change the chain and bottom bracket bearings because of the torque stress on the crank and miss-shift and out of sync throttling that will snap the chain.
I am interested in these E-bikes and found your videos very informative.. More so than some others.. Nice job
I bought an e bike and it's amazing. Makes bike riding really enjoyable. I never get tired. Haha. Mine is in the middle battery
Oh, the best frame to use for a Front Wheel Hub is frames like the NEXT POWER CLIMBER. Frame is designed for LOAD to be pushed up more up front. Many brands carry this type of frame. I can tell when going uphills .
Would be good to also see a comparison of these type bikes with a dual hub motor (motor in front and motor in bike) as well.
you are my first review and it has given me some helpful ideas. I choice was front motor for simplicity and energy distribution
I have a Volt Burlington. Rear motor and battery on frame under the seat. It is fantastic. Suffice it say that I went up Askham Fell near Ulswater in the Northern Lake District with it recently on very rough track or virtually no track in some places. I have tyres that are a hybrid between Road and Mountain type. The bike is very heavy but riding it is a joy. Absolutely no problem with the ride at all and the handling of it is fine. You do however need to learn how to ride an e-bike and get used to the way it performs and handles. Go to the Netherlands and you will see 90+ year olds zooming about on them. But then they created a biking infrastructure post WW2 so it is safe and easy, so unlike the UK where everything is retro fitted and often very badly.
I had to chime in. I went to Holland years ago to meet family members and could not believe they had a parking structure full of bikes!. it was incredible. also saw lots of bikes chained up with missing parts. looked like maybe stolen. But all in all. It was an amazing thing to see. We could use a bike parking structure for our cities. Maybe people would ride more.
I'm building a bombtrack arise with a front hub 350w motor and huge battery. The bike has nexus8 rear hub so no maintenance and good weight distribution. I love to ride on and off road, but this will be my commuter bike. E bikes are so fun!
Thank You for the excellent description of each type of e motor setup. I am looking for one of these and your video is very helpful.
cant believe this was 6 years ago.
Really enjoyed your video. Excellent job of explaining pros and cons. I own a Rad Rover (sold as Rhino in UK).
+SickBicker That you for a thought provoking video. The front hub motor looks to be the more elegant solution, particularly if you are modifying a normal bicycle to make it electric assisted.
That's what I did, and it took a couple hours to do the whole conversion with a $170 kit + batteries.
Get into a bind and this thing is a life saver
What would I like to see in a electric bike. First I like the bike to be a human/ electric drive assisted hybrid.
I would do away with chain drive gearing etc. associated with a bike. The pedal power pod would stay but the pedal would generate electricity at varying reluctance into the battery. Also, when coasting and electric braking, the power recharges the battery. Different levels of assist mode could be controlled by maybe a smart phone to monitor the functions.
Removing the smart phone would disable the bike. Since the smart phone would be the key. Removing the smart phone locks up the bike an activates the alarm system and the battery pac looks up too.. You might a bike lock to chain it to something. The faster one pedals, the faster forward the faster it moves to regulate speed. Braking would be controlled by the back pedaling the generator pod.
The brake lines and gear lines would disapear. The wiring for the motor hub, lighting would be internal through the frame.
Great video, I ordered a front wheel 500 watt kit, your video makes me think I made the right choice.
Send it back and mount a BaFang center drive. You will be much happier.
About the weight distribution of the rear-hub motor... you forgot the rider, whose weight is mainly on the rear wheel.
No rider is center if they are sitting on the seat
Great Video! Love the comparison. I rode all styles and ended up choosing the PIM Electric Bicycle equipped with a Power in Motion rear hub motor. The price is great they start at $995 but I sprung for the higher end model that has Magura stuff on it. The mid drives were nice. I tested Bosch and Brose which i like Brose the best but I was on a budget and the PIM got me into a great bike.
Keep up the good videos!!
I'm mid drive all the way, I've had 2 over the past 4 years . tried out hub motor bikes and they are crap on hills off road unless you go up to 1000w and then you get the climbing power but they are way to heavy. My 1st ebike was a hard tail ,l fitted a 8fun 250w motor and a 36v 12 ah battery. It was ok but l needed more power and l found that the battery was to big. I would go on a long ride ( for me ) 15 to 20 miles and return with about 1/3 battery left. So ebike 2 is a full suspension bike with a 350w 8fun motor and a 36v 10ah battery. It weighs just under 22 kg , I get 26 miles out of a charge and in bottom gear it will climb up a wall if you could get the grip. With the controller hacked and the speed limiter off it rev,s out to 33mph in top gear. This bike allows me to easily keep up with my son and his friends , off road and I am 63 ! The only down side is chain maintenance.
The one con not mentioned yet is the snapped chain --- Front and rear hub's will get you closer to home before you start pushing , where as when a chain breaks on a mid-drive you start walking from where it snapped (or so I'v been told)
dave88b +
Hi SickBiker. First your post about bikes are awesome.
This year, I upgraded my Cube Attention SL with the Bafang BBSHD
central engine. With battery 48V 24 Ah works great. With assistance, the
bike has a range of about 75 kilometers with about 1500 m of altitude. I
was also working on a chain line that I saved with a 2 cm offset sprocket.
The gear ratio with the tape 11 - 36 teeth is great.
Nice and clear explanation, but I think that he weight distribution on weeks shoul be assessed with a driver on the bike. 👍
Nice descriptions I have a 48v 1000w rear hub and I like that I'm not destroying drive chain
Watch how much power you give it at standstill. The downfall on those are spokes loosening which a much bigger issue to deal with than chain break.
I prefer front drive. They are cheap and they allow freedom to use any rear gear mechanism. I have a Shimano Nexus 8 speed rear hub with a 16 tooth sprocket. That gives the equivalent of a 9.9t rear coupled with a 52t chainring. That gives me a range from a fast walk to over 50 mph (only managed 47 so far, but that was without the motor, and pedalling flat out down a very steep hill). My motor is 1000W. Using the battery to its max I can always add my efforts on top. Made a 500W bike for my father and the pedals are useless above 20 mph, I just end up riding it like a motorcycle.
where did you buy your Front Drive? how long did take to install? thanks!!! I want to install on my Trek 7.2 Fx or Trek Marlin- Andrew
@@Andrew-cg2zl It was so long ago, all I remember was it being on ebay. Made a 350W for my daughter since then and done nothing for ages. Just built a 750W bike today for a freind. That is a massive coincidence. He ordered his from Amazon and the cost seems to have gone up, despite batteries supposedly coming down in price. Fitted the kit in about an hour without the battery, as this had not arrived. Everything went as smooth as clockwork. That was down to a mixture of luck, and me being a complete addict of tools and parts. If it don't fit, I am slowed down for a few minutes until it does. Advert for battery including rack arrived with no rack. Freind ordered a rack from elsewhere and they sent him two. If you want to build the bike, just dive in and have a go. If you can use a spanner and connect wires the hardest part is deciding to go for it in the first place.
I've never used a mid drive motor, but I agree with you on front and rear motors.
Front drive is pretty easy to spin if you're running a more powerful setup and accellerating at full throttle, but that usually happens when you're taking off from a standstill and isn't a big deal. Also rear drive often has the disadvantage of not-quite-standard spacings, and sometimes mediocre machining which causes your cassette or brake rotors to wobble, etc.
RWD has less problems with wheelspin on powerful setups, and tends to look a little more stealth than a massive front hub.
Oh, and one final advantage to FWD. Almost all standard bikes have a 100mm front hub, so the FWD motor will fit almost any bike.. The rear hub motors typically have a 135mm axle, and a lot of road bikes are shorter, and some newer bikes are longer, so it won't easily work on some bikes.
Good job with your informative essay on e bikes! My daughter and wife come look like they'll benefit from the front wheel, but myself am an dggressive off-road racer and rider for both motorcycles and bicycles. I love how the mountain bikes are evolving and can't wait to get my hands on an electric, powerful, off-road bicycle, if and when the prices come down. Maybe, being a South Florida guy now, can assist with some testing you're around here?
Best is front hub
I think you will find a rear drive to be more satisfying and a hub motor would work just fine for most people, at least it does for me.
I have a question please, I've tried 2 e bikes now both rear hub ones, but the biggest issue is that they don't freewheel very well at all, its like stop peddling and the motor fights you, like the brakes have just come on. Why does not anybody ever mention this very important point ?
There are in fact freewheel rear hubs available, these are the geared rear hubs. I have just ordered one from Dillenger, the Premium Offroad Electric Bike Kit :-)
It's called cogging, you need a GEARED motor for less resistance but still heavy rotational mass.
front motor easier to install but looses traction in some instances is prone to wheel slipage on take off
rear motor harder to install if you need to change the gearing but has better traction and can also come in handy if you need to get the bike onto its rear wheel to go through tight gaps or if you store your bike vertically
hub motor not too hard to install but not something your average joe might be comfortable with unlike front and rear benefits from being able to make use of the gearing of your rear derrailer so you can get the torque to climb hills when needed and the speed when you want to go fast
I have the Bafang mid drive and would like to offer a few suggestions. Buy a Lekkie or similar front ring, they are much lighter with superior teeth and offset design for a more quiet and secure drive. Buy a programming cable for the motor controller and your PC and download the software to make changes to suite your particular riding requirements. This goes way, way beyond what is done from the LCD display to make a world of difference compared to Bafang's factory settings. Finally, I would get a shift sensor to help smoothen gear changes.
I enjoyed your video... cheers.
exactly how my bike is setup, and I love it!
Front Hub Motor is King!
The #1 pro of a Front Hub is that the E-bike becomes a 2 wheel drive vehicle. AWD, 2WD
Front Wheel: Motor Power
Rear Wheel: Pedal Power
I propose that any discussion of bike balance MUST include the weight of the rider, and bike design can fully reverse 'static no-rider balance .. CG is also important!!! (cter of gravity)
Very informative. I had no idea of the differences in ebikes. Pros and Cons are well explained.
front wheel drive by far the best
Not on dirt or gravel it is not....
One thing you didn't go over. If you are going to pedal along the mid-drive for most users spins faster than most can pedal. On my bigdummy cargo bike I installed a down hill front sprocket that will let me petal along at speeds of 35 mph on a rear bpm2 geared hub motor.
Good review, except you need to point out that there are numerous mid-drive motors that differ. For example, some mid-drive motors are intergrated into the frame which eliminates ground clearance issues, while the motor you have on your test bike is a Bafang add-on kit motor.
I agree with the retired prof- very nice speaking voice and delivery- However too much content was guess work, used scale and measure the weight and then figure front to rear weight distrubution.
The rear hub is the smartest choice : 1 for the price, 2 because if your chain breaks or your crankset gets damaged you are stuck with a useless e bike with mid drive, but a rear hub is a built in back up due to it being independent from the chain or crankset, 3 the rear hub is much cheaper for more wattage meaning, more torque than ANY mid drive.. certainly for the price. go with a 1500 watt set up and any hill is no problem at 25 or 30 UPHILL on the steepest grades. It is just common sense.
Yes and no.
The downside of a rear hub is the added wheel weight and corresponding gyroscopic effect of the rear wheel.
It makes it hard/impossible to control in technical MTB sections. Which is why you won't find them usualy in E-Mtb's
I agree that for a daily commuter it makes the most sense. Unfortunately large suppliers like Bosch went all-in on the mid-drive system.
Which has it's pro's with central weight distribution and no added wheel weight which means nimbler better handling bikes.
But also comes with the downsides you rightfully mentioned.
The torque statement is questionable because the pedals have a longer lever than the rear hub motor, so a lower power mid motor, coupled with your pedaling, will general as much torque has a higher powered hub. Pros/Cons etc..
This is the best explanation of the different drives. Thanks
testing the weight I would have preferred grabbing top dead center of the front and rear tires, not just random spots all over the place, my ocd kicking in
Bought a 1500 watt Front hub. Already have a rear hub but at 350watts gear. One thing I do KNOW OF FRONT WHEELS ( WITH OR W/O MOTOR) when riding in Rain or after rain of wet roads, the front wheel will be the key to avoid slipping as turning while peddling or motor on the wheel will slide and make you fall to slide. So using motor will increase the chances of slippigg of these turns and if you immediately brake the wheel will lock easier of braking of being wet and you will get tossed off bike over the front wheel. With those facts in mind Im aware NEVER to even try to ride in rain of any bike unless Im caught in sudden rain. Its best to make complete stop or slow down to 1 to 2 mph on all turns.
Other factors of using Front hub is the need to twist throttle of a slow rate, even to go faster from current speed and while twisting lean forward or press down Handle Bars to get more pressure from wheel spinning or peeling. Going up hill I take my body and stand on pedals leaning on top of handle bars to have better center gravity going up. These little tricks work out well for me but overall I ALWAYS DO NOT NEED TOP SPEED(Bike can hit 42mph) and only use it to avoid cars from behind. Main purpose of sing a 1500watt Front wheel is to ride heavy CARGO in back. Other than that I have no real use for 1500watt and just ride my 350watt when going to stores, next door, ect. SPEED IS NO JOKE AND USING BIKE OF THAT SPEED IS A MUST TO BE SAFER THAN SORRY( A CRASH AWAY FROM BEING DISABLED OR DIE)
I've read that mid-drive motors are more energy efficient and they can go up hills better.
Think about what the gears of your bike are good for then you know why mid-motors can go up hills better.
@@jeanyluisa8483 Exactly, meaning that you keep some of the gearing function of the bike instead of just the wheel spinning.
@@remyllebeau77 Right. And using the gears properly you can also use your motor in its most energy efficient RPM range. But if youre too lazy for shifting gears or do it in the wrong way, you can also achieve the opposite and turn those advantages into disadvantages.
I'm living in a very flat region without any hills. So I never needed s stronger motor than my rear hub motor. Without hills my rear hub motor also never has to work hard at low RPM and thus usualy works very energy efficient. Both of course looks very different if you have a lot of hills or mountains.
This is the theory i understand;
Mid motors help your legs push the pedals at the same speed you pedal. So depending on what gear you are in, depends on how hard the motor works WITH your legs efforts and feels natural at ALL SPEEDS. The mid motor turns slow on low gears and fast at high gears same as your legs...
Hub motors however simply TURN ON to 1 preset speed (on/off only). So if you are on a high speed gear but at slow speed it puts much stress on the motor! And opposite if you are at top speed the hub motor is not turning any faster.
@@Spirited_Driver Well said.
The human sitting over the rear matters much more than the bike with no-one on, you can pick your gearing with any type too. The price difference will be a big factor for most people, front vs mid drive is a massive difference. Another big difference that some may find important is that front drive doesn't require any pedalling at all...the others usually.
I have front wheel motor, great except if you want to remove front wheel for transport in back of my CRV, difficult and will no doubt damage wiring, try to buy one with electrical disconnect near the wheel or perhaps build your own.
That Marin was a dream build. I wanted to do that one so bad!
Many good observations and suggestions!
there is a lot of hate against ebikes.
i dont get why ,everybody can choose what to ride...
its just jealousy from hard core traditionalists who think they have honed their leg muscles for years and think they are part man/part machine until a 'cheating' e-biker like me thrashes past them on overtake leaving them speechless. In the old days this was very funny when these bikes were uncommon.
Mid drive by far is the most expensive to buy, install, and maintain. Rear hub costs a ton less, cost less to install but more than front hub because you have to dial in the rear derailleur, and zero maintenance. Front hub cost the least and cost less to install with zero maintenance make sure to use a torque arm, idea invented by me some 12 years ago.
I LOVE my front hub motor.
I like the front wheel motor idea.
One problem with a front hub motor is when riding on stoney/pebbly surfaces ..... the front slides easily away!
Yes it does. Especially wit WET stoney/pebbly surfaces Ouch lol
Try soft tires it’s a a huge difference now after I change to Schwalbe 365 all weather . Huge difference.
You should use the new Bafang Max or Ultra Mid drive for comparison.
i ride both front and rear bikes at work and on front wheel indeed is slippery but only if u have a full backpack on your back and u go really really fast, on the rear wheel is batter then front if you are driving fast most of the time but if you dont rush and its not rainy at where you live then its better front cause it feels likeyou are going fast when u actually are not and middle i never had a chance to try but it probably is the best i believe this guy on word
Rear-hub and bike is front heavy right. And you really think the drivers weight is in the exact center of the bike and not mostly under the seat and pedals which are nearer to the rear part? Amazing...
May I thank you. I found it really helpfull. I'm now going to watch all your other video's.
I watch a lot of these comparrison videos and really they never give a 100% accurate description, why? Because they show the 3 different motors to compare the motors but they are all on different bikes. I have had lots of different cycles in my time and I don't think I have ever had 2 the same, so I want to give you a 100% accurate comparison of the front hub with the mid drive, both 36v and 250w and I can do this, why? Because I converted my front hub ebike into a mid drive on the same cycle and I want to enclose my findings and which motor do I prefare and I feel if you do this you will conclude the same. Same bike different drives front hub and mid drive and I think findings would be simular to rear drive but cannot comment that because never had a rear hub motor but read ups are very simular with slight differences to the front hub.
Eleven months ago I purchased the Mayfair Highwayman, E+Plus 250w front hub ebike from Argos and 9 of these months been riding it, to be honest even do I have benefitted from the cycle because it is peddle assist it hasn't been like riding a normal cycle I did when I was younger, when I set off and motor comes in it feels like someones pulling me it doesn't feel natural, if you want to buy an ebike like a motor bike that is fine but for cycling only other cyclists would know what I mean, it had a back rack battery so weight on front and back evened out but once I came to uneven and poor roads it vibrated through the all cycle not confortable at all in fact twice ithe battery connector come loose first time had to cycle bike home without power because controller is at back of battery and didn' have a screw driver to undo it, second time I did , going up slight hills okay but once hills got a little steeper then not much good, avaraging on a 6 mile tound trip 12.6mph and battery lasting about 21 miles.
Mid drive after 9 months decided to convert to mid drive which took a month to get all the parts and fit, this is a Bafang BBS01 250w 36v motor, so for the last few weeks been cycling on the same bike with this motor and what differences have I noticed? It feels more like a cycle you wouldn't know the motor was there unless you turned it off, the battery is still the rack battery replaced the motor wheel to a normal wheel. When goin g over rough road it as cut the vibrating down by 80% which i belived it vibrated a lot because of the heavy motor wheel, I avarage around 15.1mph on the 6 mile same trip because I can use the gears and battery lasts around 31 mile plus depends on many conditions. Negative points is price odviously mids are more expensive then hub motors, they say stress on the chain but I haven't noticed any extra stress, I do have a gear change sensor I brought seperate but use the cycle normal I can't see the chain problems. So overall accept for the price the mid drive wins in every way. Mike
Don't you have to consider the weight balance to include the weight distribution of the rider as well?
I've had all 3 ; Front hub drive , Rear hub drive , centre drive , Centre drive is the worst , because the torque from , the centre drive stretches the chain and causes damage to the cassette , Rear drive , plenty of Gs taking off , no chain stretch , ( with mine anyway ) You only have 8 cog cassette on the rear and ingle on the crank , so sometimes the up hill pedal becomes really tough , especially if You riding on a dirt road . Front Hub , for me ( it was my first E bike ) , did 5,000 ks before the gearing in the hub collapsed and had to be replaced , but had 9 speed cassette on the rear , 3 level chain ring on the pedals , biggest problem was the battery 10kgs on the rear , the rear drive also has a 3 kg battery on the rear which in both cases causes the e drive to work harder because of added weight on the rear , all in all , the front hub drive ( in me opinion ) is the best ?
Danny Gayler- (a.) cheap chain?, (b.) you weren't shifting early enough? As an avid & experienced bicyclist, I've learned that most riders don't shift early enough or often enough. USE THE GEARS!, not the leg power. I'm thinking about mounting a 'mid' motor on a recumbent trike and installing paddle shifters on the steering wheel or steering yoke (another modification). I also like the idea of a battery mounted remotely from the motor (instead of in conjunction as in the rear-wheel motor). That way I can install 2 batteries on the trike with a selector switch with a "1-OFF-2" position so I can deplete the #1 battery to my heart's content and switch to #2 to get me home.
Very good video, easy to understand. I am still undecided on what to get as an older senior with knee problems. What would you suggest that would be the easiest to ride and give me the least problems. Do not like the idea of a chain breaking or coming off. Thanks.
I don't know if you decided yet? But I would recommend the mid drive and the only time I would recommend a hub drive is if you are low on money because hubs are a lot cheaper. Mid drives ease any vibration on uneven / rough roads, you will get more of a avarage speed on trips, battery will last longer and if you have gears they will be in use more. Accept for price mid are today ebike as hubs are yesterdays they have had there use but better tech as come out, the only draw back anyone can say is chain snapping but I think if you have knee problem as I have health problems we are not going to be putting extra stress on the chain. So yes mid drive unless you budgeted and con't afford as at the moment hub drives are a third of the price of a mid drive. Mike
8 months ago...what did you purchase, if anything, and more to the point, are you happy with it.
@@michaelrowland6538 I doubt that michaelrowlands, a senior with a knee problem, would want to be even building a mid drive motor E bike to be riding around on uneven/rough roads.
combine all of them and you have no problems anymore
3x3 all terrain
Or it would be a 2x2 with active transfer case