Leopardstar abt Graystripe: evil Thunderclan cat. Can never be trusted. Kill on sight Leoparstar abt Tigerclaw: he sure seems to want what's best for everyone, better heat him out
I get what you're trying to say but in leopardstars honour you find out that Whiteclaw, the cat Greystripe accidentally threw off the gorge, was one of her closest friends. He was her best friends kit, and she basically raised him. Really re-contextualises why Leopardfur hated him so much.
@@bobbiepins3899 but didn’t she let him stay in Riverclan with his kits before he swapped clans again? I haven’t read her book but why did she let him stay? I’m assuming it’s probably because his kits wanted him to or something but does the book show something else?
I was really disappointed with Blackfoots reckoning, Blackstar was one of my favorite characters and I had so much hope that this would be a great book possibly about Blackfoot coming to terms with everything he's done(Only then realizing he's done bad things) and learned to forgive himself but no... it sucked
One thing that hurt me the most, has to be with Badger Fang and how he tried to justify his actions without feeling any sorry that he died young. Imagination an adult that is meant to keep safe and could have step up to Brokenstar. They just choose not too.
Nah makes sense, blackstar killed his brother at Young age and helped brokenstar kill some other kits. Later he killed Rosetail and Stonefur without a question and also later he may have become a better cat but still didn't hold back to kill own clan members instead of trying to bring them back to senses as seen in "The Last Hope". He's basically a tamer The Mountain from game of thrones. He's the tallest and strongest cat in the forest, he could probably beat Bone and even Tigerstar in battle. He's stupid and his entire motivation is blood and death. He might have been forgiven and accepted by starclan, but he was always a monster and one of the most evil cats in the forest.
I liked Blackfoot, he was a fun character and I liked him as leader. But Blackfoot's reckoning? I personally couldn’t read past the part with Firestar, it was too bland and flavourless.
Blackstar should've had a super edition. There's a lot to his character that would've been interesting to explored. Heck, Blackfoot's reckoning could've been so much better if they took the approach of him taking the code "The leader's word is law" to heart. Maybe he grew up being told it was the most important code or could've been gullible cat or something. It would've fit with the other two novellas as well and I'm sure we all know that, more than likely, the "Leader's word is law" one will more than likely be removed from the warrior code
This would especially make sense with Brokenstar. Blackfoot was still a very young warrior when Brokenstar became the leader, and it would make sense if Brokenstar, in an attempt to maintain control, manipulated his closest followers into believing that that part of the code is the most important. That part of the code is the one that would be most valuable to tyrants like Brokenstar and Tigerstar in ensuring firm control over their Clans, as it provides an easy way to force the cats under their power to obey them. _Blackfoot's Reckoning_ could then feature Blackfoot's journey in realizing that the leader is not always right, and that there are times when a cat needs to stand up against what his leader is saying or doing, thus gaining his own independence and courage to do what is right.
It is the best explanation but Tigerstar and Brokenstar were both breaking and asking Blackfoot to break many other rules of the warrior code, and nothing in the code says you should ever put one rule above another, particularly that one, considering the already shaky grounds on which it was created.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 Lil' thing called plot convenience shoved in by the writers. What they want goes and they needed to make drama and give the drama a reason to go unchallenged by some without making the bystanders look bad. And thus, this awful rule and the clans being idiots.
Based on the preview that released for LH, I honestly thought that Mudfur's 'prophecy' for Leopardkit was completely made up -- it was something he told her to boost her confidence in a dark moment and to let her think her deceased mother was proud of her. And I'd hoped that it would be revealed as a lie -- that every reckless, dangerous action Leopardstar had taken was not in fact something supported by StarClan, but borne of her own arrogance and pride, and that breakthrough would result in a breakdown of 'oh god what have I done' towards the end, y'know? Like maybe Mudfur was just biting his tongue because he and the Clan had spent so much time mollycoddling her and she so firmly believed in it that it became awkward to admit until he knew Leopardstar had gone too far and was taking everyone down with her. But naw, I guess not. I genuinely would just. Like to move beyond the first arc's characters. I like the comics because they're giving flesh to characters we barely knew anything about, but for characters like Leopardstar and Blackstar? It's just incredibly damaging and does nothing to build a strong narrative or coherent timeline. Like you said, the editors don't seem willing to let these characters be truly Bad, they continually stop short and try to justify everything in a way that just has them come off worse. To be honest though, I can't entirely condemn Warriors for continually trying to pull off this gray morality as it's such a popular trend in media now, particularly kids' media. Characters can't just be unrepentantly evil, they have to have come to Jesus moments and end up Good by the end... even if it logically makes little sense how they would come to regret their actions, ultimately weakening their overall narratives. I think it's just made even worse in the case of Warriors as they keep going back to the first arc, leading to an incongruence with what we know of them In that arc and how they act After that arc. They're not doubling down on their badness or trying to rationalize it in a 'cool motive still murder' sense like Mudclaw, they're acting as if these characters were always just misguided as opposed to truly antagonistic because Gray Morality is popular in villains now and they're not confident enough to write narratives where antagonists can stay true to their nature and still compelling. It's disappointing.
Yeah I completely agree with this! It's also frustrating because it seems as if the writers don't know what the hell they're doing and just.... don't really care at all. Though I do understand that the editing team// publishing company have played a bigger hand in this problem than the writers themselves, so at this point it really is just about making money than writing actually good stories.
But... it's clear that Leopardstar and Blackstar did come to regret their actions in the later arcs. I agree that it's dumb to make it look like they were always good people, but I'm confused about that part of your comment. I haven't read either of those books. Nor did I read the graphic novel. Just so you know.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 It's true that the characters come to regret their actions, but the main problem is that we don't see them learn anything. Instead of being given character arcs where they had to actually suffer the consequences of their actions in a meaningful and impactful way, the authors write around this and just have them say that they feel bad about their actions. Their views on things don't really change in an organic way where for example, maybe Blackstar could learn the value of allying with other clans by having him in a story where he has to partner with a non-shadowclan cat and gets to know them better. He would then be forced to question his prejudice against other clan cats, as he would realize that the other clans are just trying to survive and keep the peace as Shadowclan is. Instead the narrative basically just says "o these characters are good now" and then doesn't do anything else with them. A good redemption arc is more than just the character feeling bad for their actions, but is about that character being properly reprimanded, recognizing what they did wrong, and then taking steps to improve themselves as people (or cats) and make up for their mistakes. 90% of the time, this isn't executed very well in warriors because the authors constantly make excuses to validate these bad actions and refuse to commit to these characters being truly bad.
@@pantherbeastly3934 1)But..Blackstar does learn the value of allying with other cats. In the new prophecy, he's at first ready for his clan to go live in Scourge's old territory, but when the other clans save shadowclan from the twolegs, he accepts to go with them. And then, multiple times later, he shows that he's now willing to cooperate with other clans if needed. For example, when he rescues thunderclan in the battle against Windclan&Riverclan. 2)'''had to actually suffer the consequences of their actions'' You're thinking too much as a writer right there. In real life, people don't always suffer consequences for horrible actions, but they may still end up doing good in the world later on. Firestar didn't have the power to remove Blackstar and Leopardstar from their position of power and neither did anyone else, so yes, they didn't suffer consequences. That's just how it is sometimes. Depressing, but not automatically ''bad writing''.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 What I'm saying is that Blackstar didn't go through his own believable character arc that fleshed out how he approached certain problems. In your first point, the New Prophecy was never focused on him, but other characters. In terms of the best way for him to learn this lesson, he would need to be forced to realize that non-shadowclan cats aren't evil or untrustworthy by forming a positive relationship/ dynamic with them. That situation in the New Prophecy is him accepting the clans help out of necessity, rather than him realizing his xenophobia necessarily. And in response to your second point, if the authors are looking to write a redemption arc in which the characters learn from their mistakes and become better for it, that character absolutely needs to experience the consequences that come with their terrible actions. That's the only way that character can learn. I understand that people may not suffer the consequences for their actions in the real world, but the books aren't meant to replicate that. Blackstar's novella was literally written with the intention of him seeing the damage he caused by joining with Tiger star and Broken star, and the book failed at that by excusing his actions and trying to lesson their impact to make him more sympathetic. It doesn't matter what happens in the real world. The book intended to hold Black star accountable, but fell short. Also, I completely respect that you don't agree with my opinion, but these are books, so I am naturally going to think like a writer when I try to analyze them. So I would appreciate it if you were to refrain from telling me how I should discuss them.
The only thing I liked about all three books is that it gave some background characters some personality, for example, Frogleap, Skyheart, Sunfish, Whitefang, and Whiteclaw in LH, Tornear, Ashfoot, Cedarheart, Nightcloud (in the books sake) Rowanclaw (the same reason as Nightcloud), and even Mudclaw in WoC, Blizzardwing, Hollyflower, Fernshade, Wolfstep, and others in Blackfoots Reckoning.
I think one thing people seem to forget about a lot in warriors, especially with Blackfoot's reckoning, is the role of authority. Even in the real world, we follow authority because it's how we're brought up, and it's also how warriors are brought up, which is why they struggle so much to stand up against leaders. Blackfoot wants to be loyal. From his perspective, Tigerstar saved Shadowclan in their time of need, so Blackfoot feels he should pay him back. He sees Shadowclan becoming stronger than ever and striking fear in others; and so, despite knowing it's wrong, he goes along with it. In fear of betraying his leader. In fear of being cast out by his clan; especially considering Tigerstar was killing those he felt were unfit or unloyal, he feared being killed. So really, what else could he have done in that situation? I love Blackfoot/star and I still do despite how poorly I think Blackfoot's reckoning was written. It would have been more interesting to see from his perspective when Sol arrived, and make the novella set in that time but still flashing back to his past (though much less occasionally than in the real novella) to show the effect his past is having on him, and those being the reasons why he follows Sol and stops believing in Starclan (i.e. he thinks how can Starclan exist when they allowed Shadowclan to be lead by a tyrant, and then for the clan to fall sick when he died, only to be lead after that by another tyrant) Also I like that Blackfoot was colder to others in earlier books; I still think it's in character, I just think he doesn't show his emotions to other cats. He's constantly described as a proud cat who never shows weakness, and that's exactly why he acts so cold when we're from another cats perspective.
"what else could he have done in that situation?" There's actually a very clear answer for that in the books, and its what Stonefur did. Refusing to listen to authority when authority said to murder innocents, even if it means risking your life. Blackfoot takes the other choice and is willing to do morally reprehensible things in the name of authority. What power would have tigerstar had in the bone hill scene if cats like Blackfoot didn't unquestioningly obey tigerstar's authority? I hate seeing this "listening to authority" excuse. At some point you gotta have a conscience to do what is right and not suck up to authority.
Remember the often disregarded rule of the warriorcode. 13. The word of the Clan leader is the warrior code. That explains why Backstar did those things to me. Because technically every leader has the power to disregard the other rules in the warriorcode.
he broke the warrior code multiple times under the worst cats in wc history (with this once ending in the death of his sisters only kit) because he *supported* the warrior code. Makes sense. especially with the way he handed his clan over to a loner and disregarded starclan and the code altogether later. Totally legit. 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
@@candykatkittylichiousisthebomb First, what does the third arc have to do with this? We're talking about old Blackstar. Second, again, the clan leader's word is law. From a purely legal standpoint, everyone of Blackstar's actions under Brokenstar and Tigerstar was what he should do.
I can understand the reasoning but I still think he should have challenged the tyrants. Especially Brokenstar. Maybe he would have been worse off but it would have left both leaders with a smidge left power and would've been the morally correct thing to do.
I've always really liked Mudclaw. He was a jerk whose brain was clouded with bias and bitterness, but he really was just doing what he thought was best, and I always sympathized with him for being kicked out last minute when he was doing what he believed would be best for WindClan. Plus, I can't help but feel like Tallstar's idea was a detriment in the long run, considering the Eclipse battle. Mudclaw wouldn't have had to prove he wasn't friends with Firestar, and wouldn't have gone as far as he did.
i feel like blackstar and leopardstar should of had swapped book formats, blackstar would of done better and we could POSSIBLY see why blackstar didnt go agianst them or was manipulated them like the noverlla mentions. leopardstar i think would of even better with her own personality in novella format. esp seeing everything she did was in such a shorter timespan. and yes both could use that darker sides as well.
Gosh I'm disappointed hearing that Leopardstar's Honor turned out the way it did. I had the idea forever that to fit with the narratives we see in both Crookedstar's Promise and the main books that the rest of the clan doted on her because she lost her mother and siblings and she lived a very comfortable life free of worry, being naive and happy-go-lucky and maybe a little bit vain in knowing that she's so loved (aside from being brutally harassed by other clans at meetings that her father became a medicine cat and "this means you shouldn't exist because medicine cats can't have kits!" which starts that slight spark of anger), but then her being a golden child beloved by all was exactly what made her get picked for deputy when Oakheart died and she got thrown into a position that she was both unprepared and unqualified for, leading her to adopt a brusque persona around rival clans, especially when ThunderClan keeps committing manslaughter on her friends turning an attempt to be fierce into actual vitriol and distrust that then becomes insult to injury when they overpower her at every conflict. She puts up a good front, both in scaring enemies and being warm to allies, but that pressure is getting to her, especially now that she's failing her clanmates who care about her so much. Cue Tigerstar who's self-assured, charismatic, and powerful, and he suggests that they partner up since he can't help but notice that she's struggling, that the other clans are laughing at her for her failures, that she's nothing compared to Crookedstar. With his help, RiverClan could have Sunningrocks, RiverClan could mean something, but of course it's all a lie as he takes over her clan and puts a practical gun to her head when given the choice between two apprentices dying, or them dying along with her and her deputy, leaving RiverClan FULLY in Tigerstar's claws, and of course he's sure to make all of her clan hate her for it. Then have an epilogue where yes her clan reviles her, wishes she were dead, but she still wants to do her best to redeem herself even if part of Tigerstar still whispers in her ear that she will never be forgiven and she'll always belong to him, something she constantly needs to try to recover from. There you go Erins, there's your Leopardstar super edition. No random going from brash and reckless to timid and overall just being a dummy. Just have someone who's inexperienced and breaking under pressure listening to the honeyed words of someone who wants to use them and then watches as that deal ruins everything in her life. This is how it plays out in my head, canon be darned.
Blackfoot had every right to oppose his leaders, but there was also the code about the leader’s word is law. The novella had me teetering between liking and not because of how I was able to see myself in him but it wasn’t written well. I really liked Winds of Change because I saw myself in him but the story was written better.
I love Blackstar- he's my favorite character, I know he did really feel bad for his actions. However, it was VERY poorly written. Leopardstar's Honor is even worse. She learned nothing and is a horrible character. In some ways, you could even consider her evil. I have always hated Leopardstar and now I hate her even more. Overall, Leopardstar's Honor was much worse than Blackstar's novella. I still love Blackstar, I'm just a bit disappointed
If I remember correctly, Blackstar was the one against Leopardstar in that vote, and it shows heavily that in comparison, the team had better ideas for a Blackstar super edition over a Leopardstar Super Edition, I think if we got a full super edition it would have given him that depth since there would have been a story to tell. Mudclaw is a good Windclan antagonist meanwhile who would have fit better than Onestar in the Windclan leader that would attempt to stand against almost everyone else, acting more like Shadowclan in the first two arcs. The Leopardstar Super Edition is one that is kind of hard to see working because they wanted to do a similar story to the Blackstar Novella, it works but is too long of a story to see things were done well. I feel if Blackstar would have gotten his super eddition I feel he would have turned into something better with him being able to grow alongside Brokenstar in the beginning being lulled into his ideas, later using some inspiration from Tigerclaw's Fury to be that after Brokenstar was presumed dead he saw his old friend in Tigerstar, not wanting to let his new leader down in case he were to loose another friend and have it be a sort of act of someone in an abusive relationship. Then we would get the 9 lives ceremony near the start of the end to which we see him going into early New Prophecy still being jaded but trying to go off what he saw in his talk with Tall Shadow to do better and it would end off on the beginning of The New Prophecy after jumping around between Darkest Hour and New Prophecy a bit, to which he notices Tawnypelt acting different as she seems more distant, and we get a bit of inner monologue which would foreshadow the fate of the clans which had already happen in a few book series back.
In my opinion, Mudclaw should have been Mudstar, and Onewhisker as deputy. It would likely prevent Onestar's weirdly sudden shift in character, and if the Tallstar-Mudclaw dynamic worked one way, I could possibly see it with Mudstar-Onewhisker too. Plus, I'd think that when Mudclaw became leader, his life from Tallstar (it's a constant pattern and it probably isn't going to change, but then again cat hell isn't consistent either) would most likely be about not immediately jumping into battle, so he'd somewhat mellow out of respect for his previous leader.
The overall issue for me is that all the books (even Dawn of the Clans in some instances) all have this ora of blandness to them. Like the bare minimum was done to weave a coherent narrative, and it feels more like we're just watching stuff happen in these books instead of getting sucked into a fun world/story. It's really disappointing to say the least, and infuriating whenever I hear that a new Warriors book came out and has an interesting concept/ involves a character I want to get to know better, but then falls short in every aspect. The best example of this is with Daisy's Kin, where the main character has no real personality to speak of, and the choices she makes have no real impact/ reason behind them. Like there's this one part in the book where she has a nightmare, in which everyone in TC acts as if she isn't even there, and the walls of the camp begin to slowly close in around her in this threatening fashion. Now with this imagery in mind, you'd think this dream is telling Daisy that she no longer feels like she has a place in the clan, feels that she isn't valued as her own cat, and that clan customs are oppressive, right? But no. Apparently this dream meant that she needed to go back to the clans because that's what she ends up doing in the end! And for what reason? Because Spotfur is having kits and TC needs another den mom. THAT'S IT. The start of this book seemed to be setting up Daisy trying to find her own purpose and way of redefining who she is outside of this role/ clanlife, but NOPE! Her character's just relegated to the "nice she-cat who cares for her clan/kits" trope that's tacked onto most of the female characters in this book series. Yet another instance of great potential being thrown in the garbage! And this is a problem that has persisted in the series, making the books less like the exciting and thrilling adventures with lovable characters that the authors want them to be, and more like blobs of nothingness. (ok that was actually pretty harsh, so I apologize for that!) I mean if other people love the books and disagree with this, that's great! This is just my opinion and it wasn't made with the intention of invalidating yours :)! Though regardless, I think I'm gonna drop these books for good and just focus my attention on the fandom.
Yeah the books aren't great. It's honestly just the creative section of the fandom that I really stick around for. Oh and the few characters I do like and wanna make content of.
I am starting wonder if the books are even good? There are endless videos pin pointing all the bad writing and I get the feeling the writing team could care less about the cat books there pumping out….
Probably not, considering the series was supposed to end several times, but HC probably continues to push the authors because these books still sell good. Any creative ideas Erins had most likely were explored and finished a long time ago
Yeah they really aren't in my opinion. After reading a lot of the books and being victim to their lack luster writing and AWFUl portrayals of disabilities, neuro divergent people, abuse victims, etc., it's safe to say that the books just aren't worth the money. I especially learned this after reading this trio of books, as it ruined Daisy's character for me and tried to justify a war criminal. The only actually good thing about this franchise is the fandom. People are creating better products and reading material on the internet alone than the author's ever really could. And that's not the authors' fault, but HC's for beating this dead horse until it's nothing but mush.
@Pantherbeastly39 Neurodivergent people? Were there multiple attempts to represent them? The only one I remember is Mothflight who, I think, has ADHD, and was poorly handled
@@ee8002 There was also Alderheart, who was shamed by his mentor for being useless to the clan due to his anxiety disorder, and was forced to undertake the medicine cat position. His anxiety then just disappeared randomly and was never addressed again. I also agree that Mothflight is a good example, since she was banished by her own mother and only accepted back b/c she was destined to be the clan's med cat, not because Her mother realized her error.
This is why I've always found the fandom stuff a lot more interesting. Fan stories and fan characters are so well crafted and unique compared to what the books keep pumping out.
Here my opinion on some morally Grey characters in the Warriors series. Sky star is probably the best one here. His actions were driven by desperation and fear which makes him a very human character since most of the time people are driven by fear hatred or passion and I seewhy clear sky thought that what he was doing was right. But he came to the terms that he was wrong but still struggled with it throughout the dawn of the clans arc. Now time for leopard star in the first arc we’ve always gotten her to be ambitious and even throughout the other RX until she dies she is rude and inconsiderate which doesn’t make for a likable character. Which she was meant to be an antagonist. And her supervision doesn’t help her at all this superaddition should’ve been made before the second arc it would’ve made more sense because at the end of the book she vows to change but doesn’t let me know this throughout the other RX meant to say through the other arcs and the only thing driving leopard starwas lost after a tiger claw which doesn’t make sense at all because she hates thunder clan. Now Blackstar I don’t know I’ve never liked the black star I don’t have that really that much of a strong opinion on him and then his novella was bad I didn’t really like it for me character standpoint and I just try to seem like a villain was like good again
Tbh I HATE the name morally gray. Everyone is morally grey. And that can alsp be good or evil. The correct word for truly uncertain morality in characters would be morally ambigious
Morally ambiguous and morally gray literally mean the same thing. Look up the definition of “morally gray.” A lot of people define it as “a character whose morality is ambiguous, neither all the way good or all the way bad.” The term comes from the “scale of morality.” White is all the way good, black is all the way evil, and the grayscale in the middle is ambiguity. The gray is where most people and characters lie.
Winds of change was fantastic, and mudface is the only one I have any sympathy for. Leopardstar was lusting over tigerstar and blackstar was a remorseless piece of trash. Both are responsible for stonefurs death, and that was unforgivable.
I think Blackstar's redemption would have been better if his novella was stretched into a SUPER EDITION. The only reason I didn't like Blackfoot's Reckoning is because his redemption was rushed. If they stretched it out a bit and gave him time to realize "Oh wait I was wrong" and maybe even spending a few chapters of him throwing a mini pity party before deciding to make things right and rebuild ShadowClan to be better. I PROBABLY speak for most if not everyone in the fandom when I say, that would have been WAY better than the "Blackfoot's super sowwy..." attitude he had throughout the ENTIRE novella.
Personally? Leopardfur's (I don't call leaders who I don't believe deserve their star suffix) super edition gave me understable explanation for her behavior.
Leopardstar abt Graystripe: evil Thunderclan cat. Can never be trusted. Kill on sight
Leoparstar abt Tigerclaw: he sure seems to want what's best for everyone, better heat him out
She thinks that grey cats are ugly, and cant stand that there is a cat named graystripe. That is my new headcanon😂
@@densrligedragegachalifedan6109 does that make her... graycist?
I'll see myself out
@@darkninjafirefox no stay
Your puns are immaculate
I get what you're trying to say but in leopardstars honour you find out that Whiteclaw, the cat Greystripe accidentally threw off the gorge, was one of her closest friends. He was her best friends kit, and she basically raised him. Really re-contextualises why Leopardfur hated him so much.
@@bobbiepins3899 but didn’t she let him stay in Riverclan with his kits before he swapped clans again? I haven’t read her book but why did she let him stay? I’m assuming it’s probably because his kits wanted him to or something but does the book show something else?
I was really disappointed with Blackfoots reckoning, Blackstar was one of my favorite characters and I had so much hope that this would be a great book possibly about Blackfoot coming to terms with everything he's done(Only then realizing he's done bad things) and learned to forgive himself but no... it sucked
One thing that hurt me the most, has to be with Badger Fang and how he tried to justify his actions without feeling any sorry that he died young. Imagination an adult that is meant to keep safe and could have step up to Brokenstar. They just choose not too.
@@fuzzybuns296
And not only that
But they’re both kin
Badgerfang is the son of Fernshade, Blackstar’s sister.
Nah makes sense, blackstar killed his brother at Young age and helped brokenstar kill some other kits. Later he killed Rosetail and Stonefur without a question and also later he may have become a better cat but still didn't hold back to kill own clan members instead of trying to bring them back to senses as seen in "The Last Hope".
He's basically a tamer The Mountain from game of thrones. He's the tallest and strongest cat in the forest, he could probably beat Bone and even Tigerstar in battle. He's stupid and his entire motivation is blood and death. He might have been forgiven and accepted by starclan, but he was always a monster and one of the most evil cats in the forest.
I liked Blackfoot, he was a fun character and I liked him as leader. But Blackfoot's reckoning? I personally couldn’t read past the part with Firestar, it was too bland and flavourless.
Blackstar should've had a super edition. There's a lot to his character that would've been interesting to explored. Heck, Blackfoot's reckoning could've been so much better if they took the approach of him taking the code "The leader's word is law" to heart. Maybe he grew up being told it was the most important code or could've been gullible cat or something. It would've fit with the other two novellas as well and I'm sure we all know that, more than likely, the "Leader's word is law" one will more than likely be removed from the warrior code
This would especially make sense with Brokenstar. Blackfoot was still a very young warrior when Brokenstar became the leader, and it would make sense if Brokenstar, in an attempt to maintain control, manipulated his closest followers into believing that that part of the code is the most important. That part of the code is the one that would be most valuable to tyrants like Brokenstar and Tigerstar in ensuring firm control over their Clans, as it provides an easy way to force the cats under their power to obey them.
_Blackfoot's Reckoning_ could then feature Blackfoot's journey in realizing that the leader is not always right, and that there are times when a cat needs to stand up against what his leader is saying or doing, thus gaining his own independence and courage to do what is right.
A clan leaders word is law
That would have to be the best explanation for black foot he doesnt want to break the warrior code
It is the best explanation but Tigerstar and Brokenstar were both breaking and asking Blackfoot to break many other rules of the warrior code, and nothing in the code says you should ever put one rule above another, particularly that one, considering the already shaky grounds on which it was created.
This is the dumbest rule in the code. How did the clans never realize how much of a mistake the rule is, is beyond me.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 Lil' thing called plot convenience shoved in by the writers. What they want goes and they needed to make drama and give the drama a reason to go unchallenged by some without making the bystanders look bad. And thus, this awful rule and the clans being idiots.
Based on the preview that released for LH, I honestly thought that Mudfur's 'prophecy' for Leopardkit was completely made up -- it was something he told her to boost her confidence in a dark moment and to let her think her deceased mother was proud of her. And I'd hoped that it would be revealed as a lie -- that every reckless, dangerous action Leopardstar had taken was not in fact something supported by StarClan, but borne of her own arrogance and pride, and that breakthrough would result in a breakdown of 'oh god what have I done' towards the end, y'know? Like maybe Mudfur was just biting his tongue because he and the Clan had spent so much time mollycoddling her and she so firmly believed in it that it became awkward to admit until he knew Leopardstar had gone too far and was taking everyone down with her. But naw, I guess not.
I genuinely would just. Like to move beyond the first arc's characters. I like the comics because they're giving flesh to characters we barely knew anything about, but for characters like Leopardstar and Blackstar? It's just incredibly damaging and does nothing to build a strong narrative or coherent timeline. Like you said, the editors don't seem willing to let these characters be truly Bad, they continually stop short and try to justify everything in a way that just has them come off worse.
To be honest though, I can't entirely condemn Warriors for continually trying to pull off this gray morality as it's such a popular trend in media now, particularly kids' media. Characters can't just be unrepentantly evil, they have to have come to Jesus moments and end up Good by the end... even if it logically makes little sense how they would come to regret their actions, ultimately weakening their overall narratives. I think it's just made even worse in the case of Warriors as they keep going back to the first arc, leading to an incongruence with what we know of them In that arc and how they act After that arc. They're not doubling down on their badness or trying to rationalize it in a 'cool motive still murder' sense like Mudclaw, they're acting as if these characters were always just misguided as opposed to truly antagonistic because Gray Morality is popular in villains now and they're not confident enough to write narratives where antagonists can stay true to their nature and still compelling. It's disappointing.
Yeah I completely agree with this! It's also frustrating because it seems as if the writers don't know what the hell they're doing and just.... don't really care at all. Though I do understand that the editing team// publishing company have played a bigger hand in this problem than the writers themselves, so at this point it really is just about making money than writing actually good stories.
But... it's clear that Leopardstar and Blackstar did come to regret their actions in the later arcs. I agree that it's dumb to make it look like they were always good people, but I'm confused about that part of your comment.
I haven't read either of those books. Nor did I read the graphic novel. Just so you know.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 It's true that the characters come to regret their actions, but the main problem is that we don't see them learn anything. Instead of being given character arcs where they had to actually suffer the consequences of their actions in a meaningful and impactful way, the authors write around this and just have them say that they feel bad about their actions. Their views on things don't really change in an organic way where for example, maybe Blackstar could learn the value of allying with other clans by having him in a story where he has to partner with a non-shadowclan cat and gets to know them better. He would then be forced to question his prejudice against other clan cats, as he would realize that the other clans are just trying to survive and keep the peace as Shadowclan is. Instead the narrative basically just says "o these characters are good now" and then doesn't do anything else with them. A good redemption arc is more than just the character feeling bad for their actions, but is about that character being properly reprimanded, recognizing what they did wrong, and then taking steps to improve themselves as people (or cats) and make up for their mistakes. 90% of the time, this isn't executed very well in warriors because the authors constantly make excuses to validate these bad actions and refuse to commit to these characters being truly bad.
@@pantherbeastly3934 1)But..Blackstar does learn the value of allying with other cats. In the new prophecy, he's at first ready for his clan to go live in Scourge's old territory, but when the other clans save shadowclan from the twolegs, he accepts to go with them. And then, multiple times later, he shows that he's now willing to cooperate with other clans if needed. For example, when he rescues thunderclan in the battle against Windclan&Riverclan.
2)'''had to actually suffer the consequences of their actions'' You're thinking too much as a writer right there. In real life, people don't always suffer consequences for horrible actions, but they may still end up doing good in the world later on. Firestar didn't have the power to remove Blackstar and Leopardstar from their position of power and neither did anyone else, so yes, they didn't suffer consequences. That's just how it is sometimes. Depressing, but not automatically ''bad writing''.
@@legrandliseurtri7495 What I'm saying is that Blackstar didn't go through his own believable character arc that fleshed out how he approached certain problems. In your first point, the New Prophecy was never focused on him, but other characters. In terms of the best way for him to learn this lesson, he would need to be forced to realize that non-shadowclan cats aren't evil or untrustworthy by forming a positive relationship/ dynamic with them. That situation in the New Prophecy is him accepting the clans help out of necessity, rather than him realizing his xenophobia necessarily. And in response to your second point, if the authors are looking to write a redemption arc in which the characters learn from their mistakes and become better for it, that character absolutely needs to experience the consequences that come with their terrible actions. That's the only way that character can learn. I understand that people may not suffer the consequences for their actions in the real world, but the books aren't meant to replicate that. Blackstar's novella was literally written with the intention of him seeing the damage he caused by joining with Tiger star and Broken star, and the book failed at that by excusing his actions and trying to lesson their impact to make him more sympathetic. It doesn't matter what happens in the real world. The book intended to hold Black star accountable, but fell short.
Also, I completely respect that you don't agree with my opinion, but these are books, so I am naturally going to think like a writer when I try to analyze them. So I would appreciate it if you were to refrain from telling me how I should discuss them.
The only thing I liked about all three books is that it gave some background characters some personality, for example, Frogleap, Skyheart, Sunfish, Whitefang, and Whiteclaw in LH, Tornear, Ashfoot, Cedarheart, Nightcloud (in the books sake) Rowanclaw (the same reason as Nightcloud), and even Mudclaw in WoC, Blizzardwing, Hollyflower, Fernshade, Wolfstep, and others in Blackfoots Reckoning.
I think one thing people seem to forget about a lot in warriors, especially with Blackfoot's reckoning, is the role of authority. Even in the real world, we follow authority because it's how we're brought up, and it's also how warriors are brought up, which is why they struggle so much to stand up against leaders. Blackfoot wants to be loyal. From his perspective, Tigerstar saved Shadowclan in their time of need, so Blackfoot feels he should pay him back. He sees Shadowclan becoming stronger than ever and striking fear in others; and so, despite knowing it's wrong, he goes along with it. In fear of betraying his leader. In fear of being cast out by his clan; especially considering Tigerstar was killing those he felt were unfit or unloyal, he feared being killed. So really, what else could he have done in that situation?
I love Blackfoot/star and I still do despite how poorly I think Blackfoot's reckoning was written. It would have been more interesting to see from his perspective when Sol arrived, and make the novella set in that time but still flashing back to his past (though much less occasionally than in the real novella) to show the effect his past is having on him, and those being the reasons why he follows Sol and stops believing in Starclan (i.e. he thinks how can Starclan exist when they allowed Shadowclan to be lead by a tyrant, and then for the clan to fall sick when he died, only to be lead after that by another tyrant)
Also I like that Blackfoot was colder to others in earlier books; I still think it's in character, I just think he doesn't show his emotions to other cats. He's constantly described as a proud cat who never shows weakness, and that's exactly why he acts so cold when we're from another cats perspective.
"what else could he have done in that situation?" There's actually a very clear answer for that in the books, and its what Stonefur did. Refusing to listen to authority when authority said to murder innocents, even if it means risking your life. Blackfoot takes the other choice and is willing to do morally reprehensible things in the name of authority. What power would have tigerstar had in the bone hill scene if cats like Blackfoot didn't unquestioningly obey tigerstar's authority? I hate seeing this "listening to authority" excuse. At some point you gotta have a conscience to do what is right and not suck up to authority.
Remember the often disregarded rule of the warriorcode.
13. The word of the Clan leader is the warrior code.
That explains why Backstar did those things to me. Because technically every leader has the power to disregard the other rules in the warriorcode.
he broke the warrior code multiple times under the worst cats in wc history (with this once ending in the death of his sisters only kit) because he *supported* the warrior code. Makes sense. especially with the way he handed his clan over to a loner and disregarded starclan and the code altogether later. Totally legit. 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
@@candykatkittylichiousisthebomb First, what does the third arc have to do with this? We're talking about old Blackstar.
Second, again, the clan leader's word is law. From a purely legal standpoint, everyone of Blackstar's actions under Brokenstar and Tigerstar was what he should do.
I can understand the reasoning but I still think he should have challenged the tyrants. Especially Brokenstar. Maybe he would have been worse off but it would have left both leaders with a smidge left power and would've been the morally correct thing to do.
I've always really liked Mudclaw. He was a jerk whose brain was clouded with bias and bitterness, but he really was just doing what he thought was best, and I always sympathized with him for being kicked out last minute when he was doing what he believed would be best for WindClan. Plus, I can't help but feel like Tallstar's idea was a detriment in the long run, considering the Eclipse battle. Mudclaw wouldn't have had to prove he wasn't friends with Firestar, and wouldn't have gone as far as he did.
i feel like blackstar and leopardstar should of had swapped book formats, blackstar would of done better and we could POSSIBLY see why blackstar didnt go agianst them or was manipulated them like the noverlla mentions.
leopardstar i think would of even better with her own personality in novella format. esp seeing everything she did was in such a shorter timespan.
and yes both could use that darker sides as well.
Gosh I'm disappointed hearing that Leopardstar's Honor turned out the way it did.
I had the idea forever that to fit with the narratives we see in both Crookedstar's Promise and the main books that the rest of the clan doted on her because she lost her mother and siblings and she lived a very comfortable life free of worry, being naive and happy-go-lucky and maybe a little bit vain in knowing that she's so loved (aside from being brutally harassed by other clans at meetings that her father became a medicine cat and "this means you shouldn't exist because medicine cats can't have kits!" which starts that slight spark of anger), but then her being a golden child beloved by all was exactly what made her get picked for deputy when Oakheart died and she got thrown into a position that she was both unprepared and unqualified for, leading her to adopt a brusque persona around rival clans, especially when ThunderClan keeps committing manslaughter on her friends turning an attempt to be fierce into actual vitriol and distrust that then becomes insult to injury when they overpower her at every conflict. She puts up a good front, both in scaring enemies and being warm to allies, but that pressure is getting to her, especially now that she's failing her clanmates who care about her so much. Cue Tigerstar who's self-assured, charismatic, and powerful, and he suggests that they partner up since he can't help but notice that she's struggling, that the other clans are laughing at her for her failures, that she's nothing compared to Crookedstar. With his help, RiverClan could have Sunningrocks, RiverClan could mean something, but of course it's all a lie as he takes over her clan and puts a practical gun to her head when given the choice between two apprentices dying, or them dying along with her and her deputy, leaving RiverClan FULLY in Tigerstar's claws, and of course he's sure to make all of her clan hate her for it. Then have an epilogue where yes her clan reviles her, wishes she were dead, but she still wants to do her best to redeem herself even if part of Tigerstar still whispers in her ear that she will never be forgiven and she'll always belong to him, something she constantly needs to try to recover from.
There you go Erins, there's your Leopardstar super edition. No random going from brash and reckless to timid and overall just being a dummy. Just have someone who's inexperienced and breaking under pressure listening to the honeyed words of someone who wants to use them and then watches as that deal ruins everything in her life. This is how it plays out in my head, canon be darned.
Blackfoot had every right to oppose his leaders, but there was also the code about the leader’s word is law. The novella had me teetering between liking and not because of how I was able to see myself in him but it wasn’t written well. I really liked Winds of Change because I saw myself in him but the story was written better.
Misread the title as gray mortality and thought this was gonna be an essay about the wc crew killing gray cats,
I love Blackstar- he's my favorite character, I know he did really feel bad for his actions. However, it was VERY poorly written. Leopardstar's Honor is even worse. She learned nothing and is a horrible character. In some ways, you could even consider her evil. I have always hated Leopardstar and now I hate her even more. Overall, Leopardstar's Honor was much worse than Blackstar's novella. I still love Blackstar, I'm just a bit disappointed
If I remember correctly, Blackstar was the one against Leopardstar in that vote, and it shows heavily that in comparison, the team had better ideas for a Blackstar super edition over a Leopardstar Super Edition, I think if we got a full super edition it would have given him that depth since there would have been a story to tell. Mudclaw is a good Windclan antagonist meanwhile who would have fit better than Onestar in the Windclan leader that would attempt to stand against almost everyone else, acting more like Shadowclan in the first two arcs. The Leopardstar Super Edition is one that is kind of hard to see working because they wanted to do a similar story to the Blackstar Novella, it works but is too long of a story to see things were done well. I feel if Blackstar would have gotten his super eddition I feel he would have turned into something better with him being able to grow alongside Brokenstar in the beginning being lulled into his ideas, later using some inspiration from Tigerclaw's Fury to be that after Brokenstar was presumed dead he saw his old friend in Tigerstar, not wanting to let his new leader down in case he were to loose another friend and have it be a sort of act of someone in an abusive relationship. Then we would get the 9 lives ceremony near the start of the end to which we see him going into early New Prophecy still being jaded but trying to go off what he saw in his talk with Tall Shadow to do better and it would end off on the beginning of The New Prophecy after jumping around between Darkest Hour and New Prophecy a bit, to which he notices Tawnypelt acting different as she seems more distant, and we get a bit of inner monologue which would foreshadow the fate of the clans which had already happen in a few book series back.
In my opinion, Mudclaw should have been Mudstar, and Onewhisker as deputy. It would likely prevent Onestar's weirdly sudden shift in character, and if the Tallstar-Mudclaw dynamic worked one way, I could possibly see it with Mudstar-Onewhisker too. Plus, I'd think that when Mudclaw became leader, his life from Tallstar (it's a constant pattern and it probably isn't going to change, but then again cat hell isn't consistent either) would most likely be about not immediately jumping into battle, so he'd somewhat mellow out of respect for his previous leader.
The overall issue for me is that all the books (even Dawn of the Clans in some instances) all have this ora of blandness to them. Like the bare minimum was done to weave a coherent narrative, and it feels more like we're just watching stuff happen in these books instead of getting sucked into a fun world/story. It's really disappointing to say the least, and infuriating whenever I hear that a new Warriors book came out and has an interesting concept/ involves a character I want to get to know better, but then falls short in every aspect. The best example of this is with Daisy's Kin, where the main character has no real personality to speak of, and the choices she makes have no real impact/ reason behind them. Like there's this one part in the book where she has a nightmare, in which everyone in TC acts as if she isn't even there, and the walls of the camp begin to slowly close in around her in this threatening fashion. Now with this imagery in mind, you'd think this dream is telling Daisy that she no longer feels like she has a place in the clan, feels that she isn't valued as her own cat, and that clan customs are oppressive, right? But no. Apparently this dream meant that she needed to go back to the clans because that's what she ends up doing in the end! And for what reason? Because Spotfur is having kits and TC needs another den mom. THAT'S IT. The start of this book seemed to be setting up Daisy trying to find her own purpose and way of redefining who she is outside of this role/ clanlife, but NOPE! Her character's just relegated to the "nice she-cat who cares for her clan/kits" trope that's tacked onto most of the female characters in this book series. Yet another instance of great potential being thrown in the garbage! And this is a problem that has persisted in the series, making the books less like the exciting and thrilling adventures with lovable characters that the authors want them to be, and more like blobs of nothingness. (ok that was actually pretty harsh, so I apologize for that!) I mean if other people love the books and disagree with this, that's great! This is just my opinion and it wasn't made with the intention of invalidating yours :)! Though regardless, I think I'm gonna drop these books for good and just focus my attention on the fandom.
Yeah the books aren't great. It's honestly just the creative section of the fandom that I really stick around for. Oh and the few characters I do like and wanna make content of.
@@zrainyday5266 Good on you dude! Honestly the fandom can make better characters and stories than the Erins at this point, which is kinda sad.
I am starting wonder if the books are even good? There are endless videos pin pointing all the bad writing and I get the feeling the writing team could care less about the cat books there pumping out….
Probably not, considering the series was supposed to end several times, but HC probably continues to push the authors because these books still sell good. Any creative ideas Erins had most likely were explored and finished a long time ago
Yeah they really aren't in my opinion. After reading a lot of the books and being victim to their lack luster writing and AWFUl portrayals of disabilities, neuro divergent people, abuse victims, etc., it's safe to say that the books just aren't worth the money. I especially learned this after reading this trio of books, as it ruined Daisy's character for me and tried to justify a war criminal. The only actually good thing about this franchise is the fandom. People are creating better products and reading material on the internet alone than the author's ever really could. And that's not the authors' fault, but HC's for beating this dead horse until it's nothing but mush.
@Pantherbeastly39
Neurodivergent people? Were there multiple attempts to represent them? The only one I remember is Mothflight who, I think, has ADHD, and was poorly handled
@@ee8002 There was also Alderheart, who was shamed by his mentor for being useless to the clan due to his anxiety disorder, and was forced to undertake the medicine cat position. His anxiety then just disappeared randomly and was never addressed again. I also agree that Mothflight is a good example, since she was banished by her own mother and only accepted back b/c she was destined to be the clan's med cat, not because Her mother realized her error.
This is why I've always found the fandom stuff a lot more interesting. Fan stories and fan characters are so well crafted and unique compared to what the books keep pumping out.
Blackstar killed Rosetail, too.
Here my opinion on some morally Grey characters in the Warriors series. Sky star is probably the best one here. His actions were driven by desperation and fear which makes him a very human character since most of the time people are driven by fear hatred or passion and I seewhy clear sky thought that what he was doing was right. But he came to the terms that he was wrong but still struggled with it throughout the dawn of the clans arc. Now time for leopard star in the first arc we’ve always gotten her to be ambitious and even throughout the other RX until she dies she is rude and inconsiderate which doesn’t make for a likable character. Which she was meant to be an antagonist. And her supervision doesn’t help her at all this superaddition should’ve been made before the second arc it would’ve made more sense because at the end of the book she vows to change but doesn’t let me know this throughout the other RX meant to say through the other arcs and the only thing driving leopard starwas lost after a tiger claw which doesn’t make sense at all because she hates thunder clan. Now Blackstar I don’t know I’ve never liked the black star I don’t have that really that much of a strong opinion on him and then his novella was bad I didn’t really like it for me character standpoint and I just try to seem like a villain was like good again
Tbh I HATE the name morally gray. Everyone is morally grey. And that can alsp be good or evil. The correct word for truly uncertain morality in characters would be morally ambigious
YES
Morally ambiguous and morally gray literally mean the same thing. Look up the definition of “morally gray.” A lot of people define it as “a character whose morality is ambiguous, neither all the way good or all the way bad.” The term comes from the “scale of morality.” White is all the way good, black is all the way evil, and the grayscale in the middle is ambiguity. The gray is where most people and characters lie.
I’ve always hated when characters go good and they were actually meant to be evil.
Winds of change was fantastic, and mudface is the only one I have any sympathy for. Leopardstar was lusting over tigerstar and blackstar was a remorseless piece of trash. Both are responsible for stonefurs death, and that was unforgivable.
I just noticed most of the evil cats in Warriors are brown
I think Blackstar's redemption would have been better if his novella was stretched into a SUPER EDITION. The only reason I didn't like Blackfoot's Reckoning is because his redemption was rushed. If they stretched it out a bit and gave him time to realize "Oh wait I was wrong" and maybe even spending a few chapters of him throwing a mini pity party before deciding to make things right and rebuild ShadowClan to be better. I PROBABLY speak for most if not everyone in the fandom when I say, that would have been WAY better than the "Blackfoot's super sowwy..." attitude he had throughout the ENTIRE novella.
Personally? Leopardfur's (I don't call leaders who I don't believe deserve their star suffix) super edition gave me understable explanation for her behavior.
Ooh~
that's not morally grey that's morally black, murder is not morally grey.
Murder can definitively be morally grey. Not all murders are equal.