PUT DOWN THE PARTS CANNON! Acura TSX Weird Diagnosis
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 17 พ.ค. 2018
- How often does a car pull into your shop with smoke coming from under the hood, and the Check Engine light just turned on?!?
I'm excited!!!
Let's start this one from scratch, and see where the journey of automotive diagnostics takes us today....
As we will discover, the parts cannon would have completely missed the mark ;)
Link to Part 2 - REPAIRS: • Alternator Replace & V...
Enjoy!
Ivan - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
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I always admire your no nonsense approach, even when you're thrown a curve.
V-Tec Yo! Good find Ivan!
South Main Auto Repair what up Mr o !!!!!!!!!!
"V-Tec yo"? Sounds like Jesse Pinkman from Breaking Bad. LOL
I second that
Oh I made that baby sing and slammed some gears on the test drive xD
WOOOBAAAH! WOOOBAAAAH! ... oh, wait .... 😂
Great diag Ivan. Keep up the good work
Thanks Oz :)
Very educational. I like your process.
Love the videos! Keep em coming!
Good Diags Ivan.
Sounds just like the alternator in my '94 s10 plow truck ... only alot more quiet. 😁
It's tough explaining to people who don't understand cars, how a code doesn't tell you exactly what the problem is. Sometimes, it's not even close! Great example of that right here. Imagine the amounts of money people waste each year loading up the parts cannon. I bet we'd choke if we saw it! I'm fairly certain this is the exact reason things are set up this way. God forbid they make things easy for the consumer, or tech sometimes!
Great vid - looking forward to Part II. 👍
great vid ivan
Part two worked! Saw that one first. Nice diag. When I would see A/C on the output, I'd put the scope on A/C and measure the ripple. Some were over 1 volt! Computers do NOT like A/C on the input power!
Great diag.Please no more ads
That did well for 170k. I was getting oil into my spark plug hole because the gasket got stiff and started around 100k, but just changed the valve cover gasket at 150k. Btw, a power steering pump whine and bubbles (which is probably why the ps pump was changed ) means you need new $3 o rings on the ps pump. I’ll be changing my vtc screen and gaskets next oil change since those gaskets get rock hard and leak. Rubber gaskets on these cars seem like maintenance items. Great videos, I’ve been following your Subaru stuff.
It would be interesting to see if a new alternator corrects the other fault. Hopefully you get the job so we can see the fix!
This is why I got a 2008 Acura TSX, these types of repairs can easily be DIY. Of course you can go into much greater detail with your expensive scan tools but that’s why the TSX makes a great 2nd hand car, and I’m sure changing the valve cover gasket & alternator is going to be much much simpler then doing it on a BMW
thank you for posting this video tho great job with it. top notch skills sir.
Thanks for an interesting one. When you were cranking the car at the beginning of the video, the battery sounded weak, or as if it had a really corroded connection. I agree with you that the defective diode seems to be letting the battery drain when the ignition is off. Look forward to the video on replacing the alternator and the verification of the diagnosis.
Awesome video friend .
Great video!
Johnaclark1 I have run into the same thing a few times where scan data looks good but fuel trims have been off the charts. GREAT advice and Ivan another great video and as always keep them coming.PEACE.
Thanks for the comment, Tracy!
Great video. Thanks for sharing. Been watching a long time always good content
Hey Drew I appreciate the comment! Thanks for being here!
Drew will soon be Mobile like us Ivan😉
I noticed the cluster illumination dim at 22:44 when you turned the lights on. Great video as always
Yeah it dims automatically so you don't get blinded at night ;)
Great job. I was in your territory today. State College on the way back home from Florida.
Cool! Weather is so nice in PA right now. Florida is probably sweat city lol
God I saw the air/fuel mixture sensor and it gave me flashbacks. My (Accord Euro) TSX has its o2 sensor ripped off and ruined the ECU, as well as doing something to another sensor (air fuel) and now the central locking is on the fritz! As well as a $500 Honda ‘major’ service, I thought it’d be reliable compared to my Volvo. You did a great job btw!
Alternator access looks good, should be gravy! Nice work sir and thanks!
You will see in Part 2 lol!
The ripple is a dead giveaway along with the whine.Make sure the battery tests out ok before the new alternator is wired up.Nice fix and hope to see verification in part 2.
Another great video mate I always put the battery voltage in my live data pins like you said without proper voltage you cannot test anything properly
Smoke coming from alternator and voltage issues on ABS module were clues to the bad alternator.
Hindsight is 20/20 or better ;)
Mine had the same problem! It was the alternator! Bad voltage aswell. Its all good for now.
For anyone out there that owns same generation TSX or Accords the high pressure Power Steering hoses that loop right over the exhaust manifold like to develop a slight pin hole leak by the rubber hold down. It drips on the exhaust manifold and puff lotta smoke. I replaced it on my mother in laws 07 Accord with the same K24 engine.
Hey Ivan, catchy title lol!! Nice find! I keep wondering if the battery flotation causing the sensor going weird. But sounds like the valve cover gasket needs replacing. But I haven't seen the actual source of the leak unless I missed it. I'll wait for part 2 :))
FYI on the oil leak from the valve gasket, it is a common problem on the K engine. Same problem on my dad's 2008 Accord 4 cyl, just replace the $10 valve cover gasket.
cough, gray silicone, cough
Good stuff here
Nice one, Ivan! I heard the alternator the first time you fired it up. If that code returns after the alternator is replaced, and having worked on quite a few Hondas with A/F sensors I'd recommend replacing both sensors if those are original. I've seen them appear to work perfectly according to all the scan data and all the tests I've learned from you and the other YT pros but I've found they can be skewed and throw the fuel trims into the +15-20% range (no DTC's) for no explainable reason. On A/F ratio sensor cars Honda also uses the downstream sensors for fuel control, as well, so diagnosis can be pretty complicated on them. I'm not a fan of the parts cannon but in my experience O2 sensors are a maintenance item. I've fixed three different J35 V6 Honda vehicles that had unexplained high fuel trims with new O2's, even though they appear to be working perfectly on scan data.
johnaclark1 That is a nice comment full of good info. Thank u!
Wonder if the customer was using e85. some E85 can be Exx! could be the hondo is confused and sensors gotta go. The good thing is he can have both battery and alt tested first separately under load.
yeah, could hear it whining like it had a large load, with everything off at idle. I always start with voltage and load test when I hear them whine, even when not, crank everything on high/bright and roll windows up and down. I've been "burnt" a few times(or 20) over the years :)
Great info! One stinking Denso A/F sensor for this thing retails for like $250, so we'll replace it when it really needs it :)
Yeah, even RockAuto lists it for $145 so I get it. If it's all working and fuel trims are within reason then no need to replace. I just thought I'd share my experience with the widebands as the unexplained high fuel trims (on two banks) kicked my behind about a year ago. Replacing upsreams brought fuel trims down about 5%. Replacing the downstreams dropped them the last 15%. Strangest thing I ever saw, especially when scan data showed them all working great and no codes. I've now seen it on three different J35 V6 Honda engines and gotten the same results. These were all on vehicles with 130-170K miles.
Here in California we are limited to 10 parts per cannon.
Not that I've used it😉.thanks for the vid Ivan.
Javier 86 You can always go to AutoZone and get a bigger ammo clip for that parts cannon.
Right. Reload as necessary.
Unlimited here in RI I have 17/19
Lumpy d.c and a computer would normally mean horrible problems, it coped well :-D
it still managed to run the engine without misfiring or massive errors.
So an alternator and rockerbox gasket should make it happy, maybe lol.
Yup we fix what's broken and go from there ;)
If this were 1975, with no code-reader and simpler plumbing. I'd start looking at the leak. In 2018 with only a basic code reader, a visible oil leak, an electrical sensor involved, and a low voltage code, I'd suspect that sensor and its wiring are affected by the leaking oil and possibly other electrical connections were affected. I'd fix the gasket, clean the sensor and its harness, look at the serpentine belt and driven accessories for slipping (I heard a bearing-like sound), check the primary grounds to block and body, and then look at the alternator. It's not beyond possibility that an oil leak could damage the alternator.
had one that lasted me 160,000 miles and was still going but got rid of it caused wanted something new. Their great cars.
Damn. TSX with a six-speed manual. That right there is a unicorn.
The ratios are so close together, that even in top 6th gear it's spinning over 2k rpm at 50mph...like a motorcycle lol
Just the way I like it. Not good for the highway, but man, you sure as hell feel like a champion banging through six gears and yet being nowhere near triple digit speeds.
hahaha yeah it's fun for a little bit...and it gets over 30mpg so not bad for a "performance" car :)
Gotta love close gears. I have an s2000 that does over 5k at 80 mph on the highway.
I mean if it has 6 gears why don't they just make #6 a relaxed overdrive haha
Definitely test the battery first before condemning the alternator. I had a Honda one time with a battery with an internal short. It was so bad that the vehicle couldn't be jump started; I had to replace the battery in the parking lot. The whine from the alternator is not necessarily an indication that it has a diode issue-- it may just be working at maximum capacity trying to charge an internally shorted battery. From experience, those group 51 and 51R batteries in Hondas don't last much longer than three years. I suspect it's because they're just too small for the application. Maybe that's why other Japanese cars use group 24 or 35 batteries.
Good points! That's why I did the current clamp test with the vehicle running. In this case the battery was still OK :)
For ordinary users, Bluetooth OBD scanners are more suitable. They can also do full-system diagnosis and also provide special tools like Reset BLEED, Reset TBMS, Reset TDPF, Reset Oil, Immobilizer/Keys and so on. EZcheck and EasyDiag are both good choice.
Wonder how many people verify the VIN when it pops up lol everyone just clicks NEXT! I love my Autel
Didn't actually check the connection between the alternator and battery, but you'll find signs of heat at that terminal if it's loose when you put in the new alternator anyway. And if it's just the cable then the new alternator won't really fix it either. Lost an alternator when the forgetful John Deere mechanics did an inframe overhaul, they left that nut loose and a couple of oil line connections loose too. The heat build up melted the plastic insulator for that stud and all sorts of carnage was the result. Lot's 'O money burnt up, but it's the shabby work that gets remembered.
Wow. The scope verified that it was a bad diode, and not a poor connection. But yes, good thing to check!
Many years ago when i worked for Gm i remember a car came in with the charging light in the dash that was dimly lit . I remember it was changing and it turned out to be a bad diode . It took me a while to figure out what it was . I seen that a couple of times since then ..i left being a line mechanic for Gm because i hated warranty work and its pay .
Classic symptom of one of the rectifier diodes is duff so the alternator would put out 1/3 of the power, cheers
With all the engine running no blue smoke yet? Ivan's cliffhangers :-) So get the battery voltage up so the oil leak will start hahahaha.
very interesting
Thought the ripple looked normal, usually a bad (shorted or open diode) shows as a larger spike every third hump. The scope had a every consistent pattern and not much change when a load was applied. I agree with the low charging voltage as we should have been in the 13.5 v range min. Maybe a bad reg or high resistance on the field winding? Ether way good vid Ivan, ps how’s the new job going?
I had this problem on my alternator 4A when stationary parasitic draw. Killed 2 batteries because I can't use the car much. Then I got my clamp meter and diagnosed it in 10 seckonds.
Take the battery out for a load test when you pick up the alt. at the same time
Thats not an oil leak Ivan; thats sweat from all the VTEC power!!
hahaha xD
Question: "I-VTEC" is a heavily reliant on oil pressure system (same as BMW VANOS) to operate properly- would a "low pressure" condition cause the cams timings to get squirrely, and poison an AFR over time?
Watching your channel from the beginning, I can’t help but notice how u r able to quickly master the Verus. And any other tool u get a hold of. Like the MT 2400 Those hours with Keith no doubt helped. Keenly observing. Thank u! Hope the new job is going well. Bike riding?
Hi Bill! New job is going well. And people keep bringing their cars over in the evenings and weekends. But if I didn't go for at least one bike ride per week I would go crazy haha
Nope he was like that when I found him 😂
haha@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics
Great video! can you please show what a good ripple looks like on part 2? pretty please!
Absolutely! We always thoroughly verify the repair at PHAD!
I had a Honda pilot 3.5 in a couple weeks ago for smoke coming from under the hood, and a whine. had a new power steering pump because that was already diagnosed as the whine, but it didn't go away. ended up being the alternator. both for the smoke and the whine. ended up doing the timing belt, water pump, crank seal and oil filter housing gasket at the same time, had a 160 000kms, timing belt was supposed to have been done at 100 000km, customer said he forgot. good thing he requested it, was cracked pretty bad.
Good stuff! Apparently those alternators can get pretty toasty when they fail haha
For info purposes: 98 and up honda v6's ALWAYS RESEAL OIL PUMP WHEN DOING T/BELT!!!
had a honda van 3.5 last year 225k 1 owner single older lady original t belt
Did you change her t-belt? xD
did belt kit seals oil vc the works ck valves got wreck 6 month later she got another honda pilot i think
Damn dude I wish you were my mechanic! Let me know if you move to Minnesota lol
hey been watching your videos for some time,great videos by the way ,not sure if this has been asked before but i was wondering why you didnt have a lift like scissor lift or something yet´.
Hi Ivan, I was just wondering how your little guy is doing. The last video you had said he was feeling down so I hope he is ok. We on last Friday had to put our little girl Gingersnaps down so we are feeling pretty down. Thanks for another great video.
you missed it in other video, he passed on to the great doggy kingdom in the sky.
Petey peacefully passed away 3 weeks ago. My wife cried for two days. He will be missed!
Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics Hi Ivan, I am so sorry for your loss. We are on that same road as you and your wife. Please take care of yourself and your wife.
Rest in peace petey will miss that diagnostic dog.
usually smoking on a k series is an oil leak out the seals on the valves, crank, valve cover, or vtec solenoid.
Good work Ivan hey how is the job working out?
Need to do a voltage drop test on the positive and negative charging system circuits.
Did you fix the check emmision code?great video
Can you make a short video about bad alternator diode test/bench test/.( if you are to keep the broken alternator).I mean the test with multi-meter set in diode mode.
Looks like the power steering pump is on top of the alternator. If the previous pump was leaking could that have damaged the alternator?
K24 💪🏻
See ya on part 2!
ever notice that the battery light wont come on when there is a voltage problem,, the (ABS) light well come on instead when you get charging troubles. i need to do the stupid alternator on my 2003 honda crv,
Boy this one lead you down a convoluted path.
"How often does a car pull into your shop with smoke coming from under the hood, and the Check Engine light just turned on?!?" you ask- well, we had
Pre-OBD and OBD-1 were my wrenching days, and the "scanner" (Sun Machine) had vacuum tubes and was as big as that car. Sweep needles, dwell angle- GREEN scope.
Sounds like a fun time to be alive ;)
Is there another way to do a parasitic drain test (with amp clamp)? Usually I have to take the negative terminal off.
My amp clamp not accurate at parasitic draw levels
listen to that alternator whine when its first started.
Zi have that same volt/meter/amp clamp from Sears. It will do about everything including microfarads and has a temperature probe. Much cheaper than a Fluke for DIYers.
A used fluke meter can be had for not much more than that Sears meter, and it's much safer if you ever have to use it on stuff like hybrid/EV motor/battery wires or 120/240/480v AC systems.
Some cheaper meters don't even have a fuse for the 10A range!
These cheap meters are just fine for 12v stuff tho. Lots of features at an affordable price, so long as you respect their shortfalls.
You can't beat the safety on a Fluke meter.
I'd consider myself relatively safe if I used the amp range on a Fluke meter to test from phase to ground on a 480V distribution panel by accident. Sure I'd have brown pants, but those pants would still be on my legs and not a scorch mark on the opposing wall. Arc flash is no laughing matter.
Why does it always seem to be the back valve cover that leaks and it's a bitch to get to because the intake has to be removed. Ughhh. That car will keep you busy for a few minutes Ivan!
and the smoke under the hood was likely alternator winding's/diodes cooking. the exhaust /valve cover leak is likely more a smell with maybe a slight bit of smoke after hard freeway drive.
Yup I think you are 100% correct! The smoke was definitely coming from the front of the engine, but the exhaust manifold is in the back haha
throttle bottle my alternator on my Lexus GS was smoking too about two years ago.
Not just Snap-on does vehicle history, Launch does too and probably Autel lol
that's where the pcv valve is located so I'd check that first
Yeah the alternator percent was on the screen the whole time.
Explitive deleted! A whole new alternator to get a new bridge rectifier? Yeah, I know it's been that way for years. It's also whining, probably a mechanical problem (a bearing?). Yeah it's gotta be replaced!
On my garden tractor you can still replace the bridge rectifier itself. Fixing the alternator is the problem. It is part of the engine and there's lots of disassembly to get to it.
Haha.... I had weird battery voltage behaviour too, a few weeks ago on
my Honda, but mine turned out to be completely normal. It was all
related to the ELD on the Honda, (Electric Load Detector). This article
here explains it really well ... opensiuc.lib.siu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1011&context=auto_pres
I was baffled why I couldn't replicate the voltage behaviour while
parked, compared to when driving, but when I read that article it became
clear, since the car needs a vehicle speed of 10mph before a certain
set of parameters are met.
Heh. Why not check that the 100% command reach to the alternator? That green plug is rigth there.
Yeah that alternator sound started at the begining of the video, but still thats the only thing i check and print out to the customer, so they more likely undestand why(command given and get without results), they needed alternator and not PCM/ECM that controls it (or another CM that controls the battery charge)...
Don’t call on the alternator yet, the stator might be wet on that oil leak.
It's good practice to replace or refurbish the most common parts of an electrical system. Grounds, battery and alternator based on age. You have to understand auto parts today are made quick and sloppy to meet global demand. It isn't like the old days where some parts lasted 20+ years.
Electronic parts will obsolete in tens or made by dorman..........
On these newer cars, voltage is everything. That and ground.lol. The battery running should be 13.5, not 12.5. Its not charging. Alt is probably shot.
Remember to use liquid gasket before installing that valve cover. There are 4 places where the engine parts meet where oil will leak if it's not used. Honda service manual calls for Hondabond to be used.
Yup that's standard procedure for any perimeter gasket on any vehicle ;)
That alternator sounded like a shop vac
At idle from Negitive post should show 10amps from alternator, if all is well.
Why 10Amps?
Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics a
With all accessories off and after 5 minutes at idle, a healthy battery should be taking 8-10amps of charge from the alternator. This indicates a good charging system.
Will a healthy battery keep charging indefinetely? Usually I see them drop off to a couple Amps when fully 100% charged...
Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostics You are very correct, in that a fully charged battery will trickle down from 10amps- five minutes after start up. This gives us a quick healthy view of our charging system, and it doesn't lie. You can count on this method to guide us towards a bad battery, alternator, or wiring if you don't see these valves.
In the future don’t replace the power steering pump on any Honda or Acura. Replace the reservoir first. It has a filter that gets overlooked and clogs. 90% of the time that’s the source of power steering pump noise because it causes the pump to cavitate.
That won't fix a leaking pump though ;)
Today's cars are always falling asleep on the job Ivan smh 🤦♂️ lol
someone send Ivan like 50 different size small to large inspection/handheld mirrors :))
That oil looks like it has U.V. indicator dye, green tint in regular light. With 171K miles those O2 sensors don't owe anyone anything! I hear the stator screaming so it sure Needs an alternator, internally shorted stator windings and it's probably out of brushes. Needs some $$ injected. Will be just fine after that.
You didn't test the grounds and wiring on the alternator? Hmmmm.
Is 0.3 A normal when a car is asleep?
mrNo. MR O. did a voltage bleed off on a hondo. Might be just system use.
I just wanted to make sure it wasn't anything crazy like 10Amps haha
The direction of electron flow will depend on if you believe conventional theory or electron flow theory
"current" as displayed by the amp clamp shows conventional theory, so that's what I use :)
I believe both. Current flows from positive to negative, electrons flow from negative to positive. I can change which one I'm using at will, but usually I stick with conventional unless I'm working on something that uses high voltage like vacuum tubes, or I'm trying to figure out electrochemistry (chemistry that applies to batteries, fuel cells, electrolysis, etc. where there is electrical current in the equation).
Funny it never threw a battery/charge light. Love to see the strategy on that.
I've seen chrysler/jeep do that multiple times, right until the regulator circuit shorts to ground and blows the injector fuse.....
S & A Auto Light? Ha .ha ha. Too late light is more the word.
S & A Auto. I've also seen a few cars that didn't throw a battery/charge warning light and stranded the drivers on the the road. Most all of them said the radio stops working and a few minutes later the car conks out. I would also like to see the strategy on that.
No kidding. And these new fangled systems are supposed to be "smart" hahaha give me a break!!
S & A Auto ok now ya did it . So can the check charging system show in the information display without a battery light on as well and why? 😜
Oil in Alt.?
Great job Ivan! What will/did you use to clean all that oil up from the nooks and crannies?
ummm it'll go away on it's own eventually, right?
If you say so .... LOL
Automatic rust prevention.
The duralast sticker is the whole problem those batteries suck so bad they dont last for shit!!!!
did the alternator kill the battery or the battery kill the alternator?
Battery not dead yet...caught this one just in time :)
Usually it's the alternator that kills the battery.
The most common failure mode for batteries is sulfation leading to inability to charge or discharge, but the battery failure mode that kills alternators is internal cell shorting.
An alternator that fails in any number of ways will cause the battery to be deeply discharged, which is quite damaging to a starting battery as they're designed to deliver a large current for a short time, unlike for example electric forklift batteries. Electric forklift batteries are sometimes called "deep-cycle" lead acid batteries because they're designed to be discharged to about 20% S.O.C before recharging, as opposed to a typical starting battery which should really never go below 80% S.O.C. if you want it to last the full 5-10 years.
mr Honda would not be happy about this! whine is imbalance... one winding down I say the o2 is bad also how come no low voltage codes
Tell tale.
Good call, need stable B+ before any sensor data can be relied on.
My lyrics for "Money for nothing" I want my...I want my...I want my Parts Can-on...
I dont know about this car but I know on Hyundais oil leaks on the alternator and ruins it. Looks like the same thing here.
It was SOAKED in Power Steering fluid only a few months before this failure...
So just to be sure, when running if you place the amp clamp around the negative cable and the value is positive, that power being taken from the battery? Makes sense because when you do a parasitic draw test you're looking for amperage out of the battery. If you want to see how much amperage the alternbator is putting into a battery (assuming a wokring system) you place the clamp around the positive?