Space Base: UES Gordon - I was a developer on the Space Base line, joining the team shortly after the 1st expansion. When we did Space Base At Home, one of the rules was to take this card out, because it didn't work. I pushed for us to do a rare errata card in one of the expansions and take the UES Gordon out, but we couldn't figure out an elegant way to do it. I then came up with a storyline for the 3rd expansion where pirates stole a few ships from the base game early on in the saga, and when you gained them back, the pirates had made some modifications to them. The goal was to rebalance a handful of base game cards that had become underpowered by future expansions. This ALMOST made it through, but was seen as something best saved for 2nd edition if we ever make it.
I don't recall every playing against UES Gordon. Maybe I have, but don't have any recollection of it that sticks in my mind. I do recall getting this card before. I tend to like building money engines and then in a few turns buy a bunch of high value colonies to win the game. I'm often stuck close to 0 VP until I unleash my money engine. I think I have personally played this card before. I would get it mainly to buy extra cards. I don't mind having a card that extends the game. Maybe reduce the number of VP that players lose. I think that this effect of making a player take an extra turn or two to win the game is not necessarily a bad idea. That may help someone else catch up and win. I think this is what this card is going for.
I don't mind the card because it's only one and it could be troublesome if it shows up early in the game but it might work well with a slower strategy for example the YOU WIN card. I think it is just another tactic choice to to think about. It probably won't make the game that much longer in most cases.
When it comes to Cancel, I agree in most games, but I feel like it's a perfect fit in Magic. Some games with little player interaction throw in a Cancel card as the only player interaction, which is really annoying when it's a rare thing that you don't really think about then it comes out of the blue. Magic is only player interaction, and the Cancel-type cards are so ubiquitous for blue that it's just something you always are thinking about. The "I'm not going to play my big card until the opponent used their blue mana" or "I'll play this card that seems really good, then snap in the real threat after they counter that" kind of ideas. Each color has their own ways to deal with opponents' threats, and Cancel is blue's primary way.
Yeah the main problem is that early versions of these spells were much too easy to play. There’s no point playing 6 mana spells when there are lots of 2 mana cards that negate it. Fortunately over the years the designers have wised up and modern variations like Cancel feel a lot more fair.
Counter/Control decks are tedious and tiresome to play as or against. They just make every match as LONG as possible, and it's just not fun. There are so many play styles, midrange, going wide, going big, fliers, graveyard, discards, haste...it goes on and on. They're strategic, tactical and FUN (win or lose) but I'm with Tom on this. I'd just delete counter Magic from existence. It's anti-play which is anti-fun.
@@svachalek Actually there weren't that many early versions of these spells, so back in like 4th edition they weren't that much of an issue. But later editions brought in spells like the one he showed in the video that were just slight alterations that allowed you to have yet another 4 copies of basically the same counterspell just with a new name and slightly different costs.
agreed - it used to be very common, and if ever I see a prototype with such a card, I instinctively assume the designer has no experience with modern games, and that their prototype will be a random luck game.
We never had a problem using Callous Guards. The person playing it never kept it out long because that player wanted to be able to manipulate the deck at some point. I guess depending on who is playing, it might be a good idea to always house rule it only staying out for a couple of turns just to be safe! It's not a take-that card--I don't like those--as it affects everyone, even the person who played it. I actually like the card, but I can see I'm definitely in the minority!
Interesting to hear a disdain for counter spells in Magic! Over time I found them to be really engaging and interesting. They’re predictable* because your opponent needs to leave specific mana open any time they wish to represent one, mana which they could have spent on something else more productive. Planning around counter spells and coordinating pushes where they can’t stop everything is some of the most fun one can have playing against control. *there are some card games where the counters can come out of nowhere for no meaningful resource cost. I agree that those can be unfair and unfun
I think he's mostly going for the unfun aspect of them, though I agree they are often interesting in MtG, and I think are really vital for a healthy competitive format for the game. But Tom is clear that he only plays Magic very intentionally casually, so it's not a huge surprise to see them on his list. I think even the most invested in Magic recognize that one of the least fun decks to play against is an all-counter control deck. There's just something different about losing all your stuff to counters than removal, even if most of the time it's effectively the same thing. It's just the "No. No cards for you." aspect, I think.
Even the "free" counterspells like Force of Will serve an important purpose: Without them, the eternal formats like Vintage would be full of turn 1 combo kill decks. Having ways to counter that without having anything on the board is keeping those decks in check and thus overall improves those formats. They are still pretty wild, though
I think , and I may be Wrong, that Tom is coming from a more casual mindset and crushing control players maybe comes from a little more competitive mindset. Both can be fun but for different people at different times 😉👍
@@holgerchristiansen4003 FoW has the same problem as cards like Ash in Yugioh; the games are better off for them existing, but I do believe they aren’t fair or fun cards and they are bandaids for what would otherwise be even more unfair and unfun formats
Having played Magic ages ago, I kinda understand both points of view. Just a couple of counterspells in a deck might mess up with the opponent's combo, bring in a surprise etc. But the least fun games I played were against decks that were made to cancel as much as possible, then win with the minimal number of cards after half an hour of nothing much happening. It's especially the tournament decks based on counterspells that take the fun out of also the tournament games.
Twilight Imperium (3rd Edition) has a card that lets a player look through the action cards and pick one. I have two problems with this. 1) Unless the person playing this card knows what they want ahead of time, since the stack of action cards is huge this can add unnecessary time to an already long game. 2) Shuffling that huge stack of small cards is a major pain. Doing it once at the beginning of the game is enough. There are a couple other similar cards which I remove also, but that one is the worst of the three.
3) Even worse are those that know what they want, but look through the stack to gather additional information. People who know the distribution (e.g. 4 Sabotage) will look through at and know exactly what their opponents have
Yes! 100% it feels so out of place in the game as its the only one that does this, and you have to play around it even though there's a good chance it doesnt come up at all in a game. Games so much better without it.
Strong disagree on this one. There are few things better than getting the fool played on you and then finding a way to tuck or discard it to use it as an advantage.
@@Bob-kc thats called playing around it, if you play the fool early game on an opponent, thats easy to counter (and if thats what your opponents are doing, then thats a pretty weak play) - but when you're at that 1 space away from full, you need something to deal with the fool in play, or you just cannot have that many cards in play - sure the fool may not come up, but if it does, it ruins your city. Its the only card in the base game that does this so its very out of place - other expansions have this (like the pirate ship) but its much better implemented as it has a way to remove it on the card, it still costs you - but it doesnt ruin your game if you dont constantly have it in mind like the fool does.
While I can understand it, the game offers plenty of ways to get rid of it (dungeon and university to name two). If there weren't multiple ways to get rid of it, I'd agree.
There is a MUCH worse card to play in Everdell. Ragwort. One of his three cars shows you to take a green production card from an opponents city. Doesn't sound so bad, until its used to take someone's storehouse they've spent their entire game around filling ready for the final season, and you go "nah mate, it's mine now." Is horrible, and it's never to be used in my game.
I don't mind the 'I win' card in Space Base, we actually had someone win with it once! I do loathe the -4 VP to everyone else card too, especially since it's on 7. I haven't ripped it up, and with all the expansions it's been rare to see these days, but it is my least favorite card in the game. I don't mind Machine in Cosmic, you tend to burn out after 1 or 2 usually anyway. It's very rare anyone ever got very many turns as the Machine.
Definitely not a rip-up bc I could never, but the ravens are kaput in vanilla Wingspan. It’s fun to play them occasionally….but only for the person playing them!
Two of the three Rugwort cards in Everdell. They are promo cards. They are take that cards. The worst allows you to steal a card played in your opponent's city and play it for free, then place Rugwort (a 0 point card) in their city. The other has you switch hands with an opponent.
That chant card in Mystery at the Abby broke the ice at the first game day I ever attended and brought me into the hobby. Hard mathy euros hooked me but I will always have a soft spot for that chant card
All for Nothing is still in my Eldritch Horror game, but I always ignore it when it comes up. I always ignore stuff that clearly doesn't make any sense.
There's a couple of mythos cards in EH that i took out because they are bullshit. All for noting is probably the worst though. Undoing something you worked for for an hour is not my idea of fun.
Yes! #3! Space Base card that takes points away from your opponents. This game doesn't have any other forms of attack. This card is not in the spirit of the game. Not only that, but the game goes to 40 points. 4 points is 10% of the total necessary! Board Game Arena has added the option to play without this card.
In a game like MTG, there are good reasons why counters exist. There have always been cards and combos that when played cannot be stopped. The counterspell is set in there to give uncertainty to anyone playing one of these insane plays. This is the way a game can print ridiculously fun and awesome cards, is that there is always an answer if something is too powerful. It also allows for some seriously juicy mind games. Also in a game like MTG, counterspell DECKS exist. Those can be incredibly frustrating to go against. But if you know that's what your match-up is, you can usually overwhelm that type of control deck with some careful consideration. Those decks usually take longer to setup because they are spending time stopping opponents and not focused on building the engine. Putting more stuff on the board than they can stop is just as frustrating to them as it is having your big huge creature countered is to you. Its one more part of the rock paper scissors that MTG does well. I feel like the way tom tends to play games, his strategy in any game is always going to be thwarted by counters. I get it, but i don't feel that way because of the competitive aspect of these particular games.
As a blue player, I have the debate at our table all the time about counterspells. IMO theres no difference between counters and the kill cards everyone else plays. They are both about stopping other players from running wild.
Regarding Eldritch Horror, there are 2 other cards in the game that can also have you shuffle a solved mystery back into the deck, both are found within the Research Encounters for 2 different Ancient Ones. Experienced players know to be aware of these cards and plan accordingly. I always make sure enough clues are available when going into a Mythos phase if a mystery has been solved
Don't think so, pretty sure my copy is first edition (it doesn't have the stand up guillotine I've seem in a friends set) and I have that card. I also quite dislike the Robspierre card which just ends the day. Thirteen cards lined up and he shows up in the first few spaces. Why invwnt a card which could cut out a third of the gameplay! I suppose the Pimpernel card also does that, but at least you can choose not to play that one. Sometimes you just cant avoid taking a head.
I don't remember them exactly because I got rid of them a while ago, but I know there were a couple cards in King of Tokyo that let you mess with opponent dice rolls and purchases which were needlessly mean. No one enjoyed them, and I took them out quickly. That and I tend to skip over some of the really wordy cards because they are just too much for such a fun, quick game. Mandatory quests in Lords of Waterdeep are another shoo-in for me. Even if they're not that strong and are a catch-up mechanism, they just feel unfun and out of place in the game.
I would think that for MtG, it would be cards like Armageddon that destroy lands that people would hate more than Cancel. They still print Cancel and other cards that counter individual spells. They stopped printing land sweepers and even decent individual targeted land destruction spells. Even spells that bounce lands like Boomerang are gone.
Thanks, Tom. You hit a number that I was thinking of. Sometimes I just slip these type of cards them under an insert, still have them if I ever get rid of the game. 🙂
It’s not fun to get one, but I’ve never been too annoyed by them. They definitely shouldn’t be landscape oriented. When someone draws an Intrigue card, then tilts their head, you already know what they drew.
I hate them because they are so devastating to receive. You have to complete it first, meaning everyobe at the table know what spaces on the board you MUST visit. Usually the player/s receiving a mandatory quest has immediately lost the game
In the games my group has played the Mandatory Quests usually have very little, if any, impact on the game. They often become dead cards for the person holding them because the other two players (yes we have a 3 player play group) have enough resources to complete them right away. We have thought of removing them, but only because they are dead cards not because they are annoying or too powerful.
The 3 fire spread cards in Nemesis deck. Oh boy those ones drive me crazy. And they recommend close the doors when you simply does not have actions or cards enough to do that.
“Join the Winning team” in Arkham Horror 2nd edition is the only card I have ripped up… It turns you into a traitor and you are now trying to lose the game for everyone else… Terrible.
This one was officially retired in the latest expansion of spirit island/digital version but the blight card tipping point. Destroys 3 of your presence instantly which sometimes leads to your slow powers you've meticulously planned out not firing properly or in rare cases a game loss.
Sherlock Holmes - The Card Game has three of these types of cards: cancel effect (Alibi card), shuffle all hands and re-deal (Thick Fog card), and another player gains 10 points (a high score is bad; Telegram card). This game is from 1991.
I view Magic's counterspells as removal spells in blue. Black destroys, red does damage, white even exiles (which is worse), and blue counters something to the graveyard.
Strong disagree on this one. There are few things better than getting the fool played on you and then finding a way to tuck or discard it to use it as an advantage.
We ripped the space base card up. If the game had multiple cards that could hurt other opponents it might be acceptable. This is the only card in the game including expansions that hurts others. No place in the game
This immediately makes me think of Ad Astra. The game ends when someone hits fifty points, but there is a Hitchhikers Guide joke in the form of an Alien Artifact card that makes you the winner if you have exactly 42 points, which is very easy to do. There is also a card that scores you 10 points at the end of the game, and in a game that ends when someone hits 50, that is a massive swing.
Mine is very niche, but it's the Ambush! card from the Merlin expansion of Shadows over Camelot. It's an "event" style card that basically causes you to miss a turn. In a 5 or maybe even 6-player game of this one time I got hit with this twice in a row. It did become a good running joke in our group (just say "Ambush!" for a laugh when something bad happens), but it's definitely a tear uppable card.
May be a weird one, but the vampire rising out of the crypt vision card from Mysterium. There's nothing on that card that could be useful as a clue, it's always just a dead card.
I'd add from Agricola (the farming game, not the Roman General game): the Mail Coach Driver. First, it is an instant game winner if played with more than 2 turns left. You don't need to play the rest of the game, and the earlier it is played just makes it more of a slam dunk. Second, it exacerbates the most frustrating part of the game for everyone else. Agricola is a pitiless worker placement game. Things have to be done precisely in order, and only one player per turn can take some of the most important actions, AND your family will starve (and you will lose) if you miss one of the checkpoints. A meager form of amelioration is that you can collect resources with an earlier action, and then use them in a later action in the same turn. Enter the Mail Coach Driver. Now everyone except the Mail Coach Driver has to wait to rhe end of the turn to collect their resources. That's like a one turn delay for each and every multi-step project. With only two turns to play before you have to fend off famine, you can't achieve much more than mere subsistence. I played one game with it being used, and then permanently removed the Mail Coach Driver from the deck.
Yes, I typically count null as -2 and x2 as a +2 as the variant suggests to mitigate that much luck factor. But removing both would be nice and just have a different means to know when to reshuffle.
This is one of the reasons I don’t mind good house rules. I’m playing TTR rails and sails today, and I’m making that game way better and faster with 3 house rules. It’s my game and my time, so I have no problems tweaking the ruleset to compensate for universal complaints.
I don't mind the Callous Guards card in Guillotine. In my plays of this game, it doesn't stay out too long because the person who plays it eventually wants to be able to manipulate the line so will discard it at the strategic time to help them. I extremely dislike any card that let's a person win automatically just by having that one card, or maybe the one card and one other criterion They could be behind the entire game and then pull out an immediate win. I was the one who had this type of card in a game and was also the one who was way behind and won because of that one card. I thought the card was ridiculous. I didn't win because I knew what I was doing; I won by the luck of the draw on one card. If we had liked the game enough overall to keep it, we would have trashed that card.
Yeah seeing this pattern made me think of the Legends set in Magic. It had a ‘bands with others” mechanic that was pretty lame to begin with then added more cards to counter this goofy little combat bonus than there were cards that could do it.
The first time I ever realized that game designers are not perfect was when playing Talsiman, and the card came us that says a bunch of thieves just stole all of your items. I didn’t rip it up, but I put it under the insert so it would not get shuffled into the deck.😮
I have a few I'm sure, but the ones that I can think of off the top of my head are from Vindication (which I have taken out of my game instead of ripping up) and Coinbra (which sadly can't be taken out). The Vindication one is "Ruak, Defender of the Sacred Spirit." I love Vindication, probably top 10 for me, but that card is so broken. If you vindicate yourself and have that card, you just win the game, because he is ally #1, which means he is always the one that faces monsters when you "fight" one, and he literally can never die or be wounded, because he doesn't roll the black die. The monsters are the most point value cards, because they have both their own points, plus end-game scoring, so just getting a free monster every other turn kills the game for everyone else (also the fact that he rolls the resource die twice per fight means that if you get a lucky roll of two yellow, you could fight a monster two turns in a row, if nobody blocks the spaces). The one game I played where someone got that card, he beat the next closest person by easily 40 or more points, and there was really nothing anyone could do about it. The Coinbra ones are the stupid "take that" cards. Why are those even in there? None of the rest of that game has that, and there's only a very few that do it, so that part really just should have been left out. Unfortunately, since you have to use all the cards in every game, you can't leave those out, so I'll just never play that game again, which is sad, because it was otherwise a decent game.
"All for nothing" is a great pick, cruel and unusual punishment!! another one for me almost bad enough to rip up is Medusa's "Gaze Of Stone" in Unmatched.
The Rogue card in Red Rising - only I couldn't ever because those cards are gorgeous! If his ability hits it just completely cripples a players game. Doesn't feel good for anyone to play. Except maybe sociopaths.
In later C&C games, All-Out offensive is turned into "Cry Havoc" I think. You just roll dice equal to command and each symbol type activates an unit of that type. They do get buffed (+1 attack dice) but that's about it. It's unpredictable so I only play as a last resort. In Napoleonic, the equivalence (Elan) is pretty powerful as each dice activates one unit instead of each face type.
In one of the expansions to Kingsburg, you have a deck of event cards and draw one of them every turn. There is a card (well two) that's called The King is Sick. If you draw both of them the game just ends. What's the point of that? Just meaningless. We never play with them. I'm not fond of the You Win card in Space Base either. It has won many times in our games due to silly combos. And don't even get me started on MtG cards... so many cards there that I could rip up. We banned the card Time Stretch from Commander decks (it gives you 2 extra turns). Not because it was particularly good, but because it made the other players just sit there and wait for a long time.
I have been in Eldritch Horror and Space Base games where those cards came up and it ruins the game. And in all my Cosmic Encounter games I never had Machine come into play, thank goodness!!!
The Skullport Lord card (Lords of Waterdeep) that gives you points for corruption. It's such a crap lord card to get, because whatever points you get for the corruption you have, you still have to score the negative points for having corruption. Almost no one I play with ends a game with corruption (maybe 1-2 at most if they really got unlucky with access to mitigating quests and buildigns), so having that lord is essentially to lose the game before you start. I wholly agree with the crowd that's anti Mandatory quests, and I have removed those AND this Lord card from my copy of the game.
I also feel the lord that counts points for buildings is a bad lord to get. Maybe your experience is different, but in my playgroup we have taken it out. You are limited to the number of buildings you can control which puts you behind to start the game, plus if you cannot build a building (or get one off of a quest) every turn you have no chance of winning that game.
@@ryantomczak2248 I actually don't mind the builder lord card, sure there is competition on the buildings, but you do get more points for each building you do get and there are quests that can give you buildings. But the corruption lord is just a curse to get no matter how you look at it
@@mkitten13 I agree with the corruption lord being the worse of them, but the building lord is capped at either 8 or 9 buildings. Whatever the number of owner markers you have. If you miss a turn or two getting buildings you are so far behind. Meanwhile the other lords are fairly balanced. There are some quests that are more difficult to complete due to the colors you need (arcane with multiple purple for example), but for the most part they are balanced.
While I do not rip cards myself, there are some games that I have made rules changes to. Wizards from Avalon Hill. It is a fantasy adventure game that starts out cooperative (to a point), but ends up competitive. I do not mind that it ends competitively, but the ending is just a race to see who can collect all the gems first. It is very boring at the end. Another game where I rewrote the rules a bit Gloomhaven. My playgroup found the monster AI to be too predictable. We liked some of the elements of Descent and wanted to incorporate them into Gloomhaven. We wrote 4 different monster AIs for different monster types. We added a treasure deck for non scenario specific treasure chests. The deck is small, only 8 cards, but it can be anything from an empty chest to a random item. We even added in a mimic from D&D that will automatically attack when the card is drawn. We also changed how the negative conditions work, mainly how you get/give them. Basically, you have to do damage on an attack that gibes a condition. If their shield absorbed the attack or if you draw Null, no condition was given. This also applies to the monsters when giving you conditions. Makes the game a little easier, but also more balanced. It felt broken when you always got poisoned even if they missed and also felt broken that you could wound/poison an enemy that you couldn’t damage. There are situations that will come up that we will have to find a way to deal with, I am sure.
Cosmic Zap is essential in Cosmic Encounter - sparing counter spells are really important in some games. I do see the unfun aspect of seeing everything countered.
It might seem like a strange choice since individual cards barely matter in this game, but in my copy of Deception Murder in Hong Kong we removed the “Kerosene” card. In the span of one week this card caused multiple fights amongst family members who could not agree on how to categorize a murder by Kerosene. It is now the stuff of legends
Just curious, how did it create such a mess? To me it screams Accident, although I can sort of understand if some player think of it as Suffocation or even Poison (if somebody is stupid enough to drink it, does it still count as murder?) 😜
@@TheDarkever That exact conversation derailed the entire game and made some people very angry with the forensic scientist. Then when it happened a second time we realized that it was just too OP lol
I like the Gordon from Space Base for one reason, buying extra cards on your turn. That and income increase are two vital things in Space Base. I would have no problem with that card if it was changed to "Gain 2 points and buy 1 or 2 extra cards/Gain 1 point and buy one extra"
I'm surprised you didn't bring up Tortoise when talking about machine. Tortoise is everything machine is but more egregious in every way possible. It actively equips the player to take multiple turns at once and it only triggers AFTER THE GAME ENDS! Someone FINALLY gets their 5th foreign colony, everyone is ready to move on.... but now the tortoise gets to take all their turns at once.
When I saw this list, I immediately thought of the No.1 card. I perversely quite like it and the hostility to it amuses me. :) Another much discussed card is Campanile in Firenze.
The Reshuffle card in Dragonbond is very strong power, so it must either be used as last resort or as deliberate thing to mess with your opponents plan. Either way it's not something that you throw randomly.
Everdell - the fool is mine, its the only take that card in the massive deck, it might not come up in a game, but you have to play around it because it can end your game if you dont keep it in mind, game's much more enjoyable without it. Pirate ship from a later expansion is a far better version of the fool.
Ironically the only card I’ve ripped up is from a different Arkham style game. The insanity card from Mansions of Madness 2 that turns you into a traitor literally screwed up a 4 hour game of that in a game where dying ends the game…
I actively loathe the "Reverend Mother Mohiam" card in Dune Imperium and have removed it from my game. Having all the other players discard two cards is a MASSIVE nerf to all the other players. Yes, I know it needs a specially built deck to be very affective, but I have been at the recieving end too many times for it to be fun. If a player get this card and build their deck right then the other players end up feeling like they only get half turns and usually end up losing.
100%. This card can take a game I love and ruin it for other players. I also dislike the kwisatz haderach card. I know it’s expensive to get but it’s super powerful.
It's been a while, but in one of the expansions to 1st edition Descent, there was a card that could transform all the players into a monkey for I believe multiple turns. It was as close to an instant win as that game had.
Saw this and immediately knew I had to watch. "Public disgrace" in Twilight Imperium 3rd edition. I spent three hours planning a way to come from way behind and potentially win a game with a huge three point turn, specifically avoided picking certain roles over multiple turns so that I could get initiative and pick first to finish executing my plan and on a WHIM a player used public disgrace and derailed the entire thing. Watching a plan played out over multiple hours ruined because of ONE card nearly put me off of the game permanently. That kind of lucky swing has no business in a 4x epic type game. I don't mind it in a quick take that style game because even if there's a degree of strategy, it's not going to be one you have to invest a lot of time into. But Twilight Imperium is a 6 hour race to get a few precious points, so a card that can just take an entire role away from a player is basically like "lose a turn" in a game where a "turn" takes an hour. Horrible.
Disney Villainous - “On The Run” from Yzma’s fate deck (put a hero from Yzma’s realm back into her fate decks, reshuffle and redeal four new decks). The fate decks all have a bit of take that, but that single card can completely undo the Yzma player’s entire game and essentially force them to start over
Ark Nova overall needs a starting card normalization mechanism. I’ve seen people get a release conservation and the animal they needed on the opening round, and those that didn’t end up behind from the get go, as they quickly flip a card if their choice to the advanced side. Everyone else has to wait many more rounds. Those that can do it, typically end up first or close in the end game.
If you don't like "cancel" cards. I'm curious, what are your thoughts on playing mindbugs in the card named Mindbug? It's kind of the same feeling as canceling, but man I love this game
My vote would go for “Abduction” from Mice & Mystics. In this game, whenever you search a room for possible treasures, there is a chance you instead run into some bad stuff. This is fine. However, “Abduction” is the kind of bad stuff that is simply too punishing: you lose one of your characters until the enemies are cleared out, and on top of that, the "lucky" character loses all of their non-starting items and other hard-earned tokens. That card is a pain, and there is not one game of Mice & Mystics where I can say “Oh, it’s fair” when it shows up. I love the game, but I hate that card.
I believe in allowing a player to make choices. This is about the number of cards drawn, and put into play. A tug of war between points. The only opportunity stealing event. By having your opponent to discard from the top of their deck. Its less invasive. A long drawn out game it could matter. In shorter games less effective.
I've only ever had one card I wanted to destroy. In Spirit Island you setup the game for the difficulty you want, then you draw Rising Interest In the Island on first turn (they did errata that later). You are now forced to discard from the invader deck due to not having any energy to pay yet, thus drastically spiking the difficulty compared to what you set it at.
Spheres of Influence has a fun counter card that prevents someone from nuking you. It's always satisfying because the other person is going to do so much damage.
The Salt Mine in Inis. It basically lets you steal a random card from another player on your every turn. Since the stolen card is random, it's unlikely to be particularly helpful to you on your turn (and you discard unused cards at the end), but it is very likely to competely mess up the other player's plans for their next turn. This both kills their fun for little payoff to you, and makes them re-plan their whole turn, which takes up time unnecessarily. And you repeat this every round. I hated the Salt Mine the second I saw it. It would be better if it at least wasn't random, because then there would be an element of strategy to choosing the card and messing up the other player's turn in a way you can affect. But it still would be frustrating, as it is essentially a cancel card (which the game also has separately).
DPE aka. Destiny Hero Destroyer Pheonix Enforcer in Yu-Gi-Oh!. It's two of his three effects are 1. On Instant speed destroy one card you control (including DPE) and one card your opponent controls (without targeting even though you choose the cards) and destroy them. And 2. If this card is destroyed (yes his own effect counts), It comes back the next turn (yours and your opponents). It's annoying when it's there and it's very hard to get rid off. Canceling it's revival effect is one way. Yu-Gi-Oh is all about cancel.
I'm not sure I can agree on the plague cards in King Maker. They are necessary to remove Royale heirs early and late to punish turtling which is the main problem with that game as a whole. Get an heir, defend them in a city (London, Calais, etc) and try to eliminate your rivals through war and attrition (plagues). Haven't played this in many years but if there were a better way to force armies out of cities then I agree with removing plagues but within the rules I don't see how the game would ever end... I agree on the Dominion card. It is easy to filter out the ones that people don't like. A card I have removed from Tekhenu is the one that allows you to score a decree a second time (way too strong since it doubles your best strategy).
The "Papa" card from Stranger Things: Upside Down is a newer one. It eliminates a major, extremely thematic, and helpful part of the game in helping Eleven - you just have to hope you can get lucky and use Eleven enough before he shows up.
I never have any more than 2-4 cancel cards in a deck out of principle. But you have to admit that cancelling a cancel card is fun, unless its cancelled itself or can't be cancelled. It happens.
The 'I Win' card in space base was fine for base game, but with the expansions where you can swap cards around and/or increase or manipulate the rolls it loses it's appeal.
Space Base: UES Gordon - I was a developer on the Space Base line, joining the team shortly after the 1st expansion. When we did Space Base At Home, one of the rules was to take this card out, because it didn't work. I pushed for us to do a rare errata card in one of the expansions and take the UES Gordon out, but we couldn't figure out an elegant way to do it. I then came up with a storyline for the 3rd expansion where pirates stole a few ships from the base game early on in the saga, and when you gained them back, the pirates had made some modifications to them. The goal was to rebalance a handful of base game cards that had become underpowered by future expansions. This ALMOST made it through, but was seen as something best saved for 2nd edition if we ever make it.
I don't recall every playing against UES Gordon. Maybe I have, but don't have any recollection of it that sticks in my mind. I do recall getting this card before. I tend to like building money engines and then in a few turns buy a bunch of high value colonies to win the game. I'm often stuck close to 0 VP until I unleash my money engine. I think I have personally played this card before. I would get it mainly to buy extra cards. I don't mind having a card that extends the game. Maybe reduce the number of VP that players lose. I think that this effect of making a player take an extra turn or two to win the game is not necessarily a bad idea. That may help someone else catch up and win. I think this is what this card is going for.
I don't mind the card because it's only one and it could be troublesome if it shows up early in the game but it might work well with a slower strategy for example the YOU WIN card. I think it is just another tactic choice to to think about. It probably won't make the game that much longer in most cases.
When it comes to Cancel, I agree in most games, but I feel like it's a perfect fit in Magic. Some games with little player interaction throw in a Cancel card as the only player interaction, which is really annoying when it's a rare thing that you don't really think about then it comes out of the blue.
Magic is only player interaction, and the Cancel-type cards are so ubiquitous for blue that it's just something you always are thinking about. The "I'm not going to play my big card until the opponent used their blue mana" or "I'll play this card that seems really good, then snap in the real threat after they counter that" kind of ideas. Each color has their own ways to deal with opponents' threats, and Cancel is blue's primary way.
Yeah the main problem is that early versions of these spells were much too easy to play. There’s no point playing 6 mana spells when there are lots of 2 mana cards that negate it. Fortunately over the years the designers have wised up and modern variations like Cancel feel a lot more fair.
Lack of counterspells is the #1 reason I don’t like Star Wars Unlimited.
Counter/Control decks are tedious and tiresome to play as or against. They just make every match as LONG as possible, and it's just not fun. There are so many play styles, midrange, going wide, going big, fliers, graveyard, discards, haste...it goes on and on. They're strategic, tactical and FUN (win or lose) but I'm with Tom on this. I'd just delete counter Magic from existence. It's anti-play which is anti-fun.
@@jangofoutsUnlimited doesn’t need Cancel because of the alternating action system.
@@svachalek Actually there weren't that many early versions of these spells, so back in like 4th edition they weren't that much of an issue. But later editions brought in spells like the one he showed in the video that were just slight alterations that allowed you to have yet another 4 copies of basically the same counterspell just with a new name and slightly different costs.
Even the BGArena adaptation of Space Base includes the option to exclude Gordon.
Mine is just the generic "skip a turn"
agreed - it used to be very common, and if ever I see a prototype with such a card, I instinctively assume the designer has no experience with modern games, and that their prototype will be a random luck game.
Destroying Callous Guards is designer-approved. He has said on BGG he regrets including it
I didn't have to look far. 😊
We have always 'house ruled' Callous Guards to 'one play' then discard.
It has never bothered me, but I see the point now
We never had a problem using Callous Guards. The person playing it never kept it out long because that player wanted to be able to manipulate the deck at some point. I guess depending on who is playing, it might be a good idea to always house rule it only staying out for a couple of turns just to be safe! It's not a take-that card--I don't like those--as it affects everyone, even the person who played it. I actually like the card, but I can see I'm definitely in the minority!
Oh gah...that Eldritch Horror card....so bad.
Interesting to hear a disdain for counter spells in Magic! Over time I found them to be really engaging and interesting. They’re predictable* because your opponent needs to leave specific mana open any time they wish to represent one, mana which they could have spent on something else more productive. Planning around counter spells and coordinating pushes where they can’t stop everything is some of the most fun one can have playing against control.
*there are some card games where the counters can come out of nowhere for no meaningful resource cost. I agree that those can be unfair and unfun
I think he's mostly going for the unfun aspect of them, though I agree they are often interesting in MtG, and I think are really vital for a healthy competitive format for the game. But Tom is clear that he only plays Magic very intentionally casually, so it's not a huge surprise to see them on his list. I think even the most invested in Magic recognize that one of the least fun decks to play against is an all-counter control deck. There's just something different about losing all your stuff to counters than removal, even if most of the time it's effectively the same thing. It's just the "No. No cards for you." aspect, I think.
Even the "free" counterspells like Force of Will serve an important purpose: Without them, the eternal formats like Vintage would be full of turn 1 combo kill decks. Having ways to counter that without having anything on the board is keeping those decks in check and thus overall improves those formats. They are still pretty wild, though
I think , and I may be Wrong, that Tom is coming from a more casual mindset and crushing control players maybe comes from a little more competitive mindset. Both can be fun but for different people at different times 😉👍
@@holgerchristiansen4003 FoW has the same problem as cards like Ash in Yugioh; the games are better off for them existing, but I do believe they aren’t fair or fun cards and they are bandaids for what would otherwise be even more unfair and unfun formats
Having played Magic ages ago, I kinda understand both points of view. Just a couple of counterspells in a deck might mess up with the opponent's combo, bring in a surprise etc. But the least fun games I played were against decks that were made to cancel as much as possible, then win with the minimal number of cards after half an hour of nothing much happening. It's especially the tournament decks based on counterspells that take the fun out of also the tournament games.
1:36
"I will steal your joy, drink your tears and laugh!"
Haha, that's dark. :D
Twilight Imperium (3rd Edition) has a card that lets a player look through the action cards and pick one. I have two problems with this.
1) Unless the person playing this card knows what they want ahead of time, since the stack of action cards is huge this can add unnecessary time to an already long game.
2) Shuffling that huge stack of small cards is a major pain. Doing it once at the beginning of the game is enough.
There are a couple other similar cards which I remove also, but that one is the worst of the three.
3) Even worse are those that know what they want, but look through the stack to gather additional information. People who know the distribution (e.g. 4 Sabotage) will look through at and know exactly what their opponents have
The Fool in Everdell. Totally out of keeping with the rest of the game and it's only use is to ruin someone else's plans. I never have it in the game.
Yes! 100% it feels so out of place in the game as its the only one that does this, and you have to play around it even though there's a good chance it doesnt come up at all in a game. Games so much better without it.
Strong disagree on this one. There are few things better than getting the fool played on you and then finding a way to tuck or discard it to use it as an advantage.
@@Bob-kc thats called playing around it, if you play the fool early game on an opponent, thats easy to counter (and if thats what your opponents are doing, then thats a pretty weak play) - but when you're at that 1 space away from full, you need something to deal with the fool in play, or you just cannot have that many cards in play - sure the fool may not come up, but if it does, it ruins your city.
Its the only card in the base game that does this so its very out of place - other expansions have this (like the pirate ship) but its much better implemented as it has a way to remove it on the card, it still costs you - but it doesnt ruin your game if you dont constantly have it in mind like the fool does.
While I can understand it, the game offers plenty of ways to get rid of it (dungeon and university to name two). If there weren't multiple ways to get rid of it, I'd agree.
There is a MUCH worse card to play in Everdell. Ragwort. One of his three cars shows you to take a green production card from an opponents city. Doesn't sound so bad, until its used to take someone's storehouse they've spent their entire game around filling ready for the final season, and you go "nah mate, it's mine now." Is horrible, and it's never to be used in my game.
Roy said "It's been ridiculous" I love that you put that in the video =P
I don't mind the 'I win' card in Space Base, we actually had someone win with it once! I do loathe the -4 VP to everyone else card too, especially since it's on 7. I haven't ripped it up, and with all the expansions it's been rare to see these days, but it is my least favorite card in the game.
I don't mind Machine in Cosmic, you tend to burn out after 1 or 2 usually anyway. It's very rare anyone ever got very many turns as the Machine.
Yeah, I think the impact of the Machine was heavily overstated in this video.
Definitely not a rip-up bc I could never, but the ravens are kaput in vanilla Wingspan. It’s fun to play them occasionally….but only for the person playing them!
Two of the three Rugwort cards in Everdell. They are promo cards. They are take that cards. The worst allows you to steal a card played in your opponent's city and play it for free, then place Rugwort (a 0 point card) in their city. The other has you switch hands with an opponent.
Only card I wand to rip up is my credit card lol. I’ve bought WAY too many games with it 😆
Ripping that card up could make your whole life more fun!
That chant card in Mystery at the Abby broke the ice at the first game day I ever attended and brought me into the hobby. Hard mathy euros hooked me but I will always have a soft spot for that chant card
All for Nothing is still in my Eldritch Horror game, but I always ignore it when it comes up. I always ignore stuff that clearly doesn't make any sense.
That’s why I avoid Eldritch Horror…. One of the worst game play experiences I’ve ever had. That game plays YOU!
There's a couple of mythos cards in EH that i took out because they are bullshit. All for noting is probably the worst though. Undoing something you worked for for an hour is not my idea of fun.
You expect the Eldritch Gods to play fair? Save some clues or take it on the chin.
Yes! #3! Space Base card that takes points away from your opponents. This game doesn't have any other forms of attack. This card is not in the spirit of the game. Not only that, but the game goes to 40 points. 4 points is 10% of the total necessary!
Board Game Arena has added the option to play without this card.
I immediately thought of the infamous "Phase 10" review. Rip up all the cards! 😂❤
That might actually be the worst game I ever played
I just went to watch it :D That's so Tom Vasel :D
In a game like MTG, there are good reasons why counters exist. There have always been cards and combos that when played cannot be stopped. The counterspell is set in there to give uncertainty to anyone playing one of these insane plays. This is the way a game can print ridiculously fun and awesome cards, is that there is always an answer if something is too powerful. It also allows for some seriously juicy mind games.
Also in a game like MTG, counterspell DECKS exist. Those can be incredibly frustrating to go against. But if you know that's what your match-up is, you can usually overwhelm that type of control deck with some careful consideration. Those decks usually take longer to setup because they are spending time stopping opponents and not focused on building the engine. Putting more stuff on the board than they can stop is just as frustrating to them as it is having your big huge creature countered is to you. Its one more part of the rock paper scissors that MTG does well.
I feel like the way tom tends to play games, his strategy in any game is always going to be thwarted by counters. I get it, but i don't feel that way because of the competitive aspect of these particular games.
As a blue player, I have the debate at our table all the time about counterspells. IMO theres no difference between counters and the kill cards everyone else plays. They are both about stopping other players from running wild.
Regarding Eldritch Horror, there are 2 other cards in the game that can also have you shuffle a solved mystery back into the deck, both are found within the Research Encounters for 2 different Ancient Ones. Experienced players know to be aware of these cards and plan accordingly. I always make sure enough clues are available when going into a Mythos phase if a mystery has been solved
Wow...I don't remember that card from Guillotine. Could it be from a later set?
Don't think so, pretty sure my copy is first edition (it doesn't have the stand up guillotine I've seem in a friends set) and I have that card.
I also quite dislike the Robspierre card which just ends the day. Thirteen cards lined up and he shows up in the first few spaces. Why invwnt a card which could cut out a third of the gameplay!
I suppose the Pimpernel card also does that, but at least you can choose not to play that one. Sometimes you just cant avoid taking a head.
Same. I have no recollection of that card.
I don't remember them exactly because I got rid of them a while ago, but I know there were a couple cards in King of Tokyo that let you mess with opponent dice rolls and purchases which were needlessly mean. No one enjoyed them, and I took them out quickly. That and I tend to skip over some of the really wordy cards because they are just too much for such a fun, quick game.
Mandatory quests in Lords of Waterdeep are another shoo-in for me. Even if they're not that strong and are a catch-up mechanism, they just feel unfun and out of place in the game.
I would think that for MtG, it would be cards like Armageddon that destroy lands that people would hate more than Cancel. They still print Cancel and other cards that counter individual spells. They stopped printing land sweepers and even decent individual targeted land destruction spells. Even spells that bounce lands like Boomerang are gone.
Thanks, Tom. You hit a number that I was thinking of. Sometimes I just slip these type of cards them under an insert, still have them if I ever get rid of the game. 🙂
I immediately thought of mandatory quests in Lords of Waterdeep. I removed all of them from the intrigue deck.
It’s not fun to get one, but I’ve never been too annoyed by them. They definitely shouldn’t be landscape oriented. When someone draws an Intrigue card, then tilts their head, you already know what they drew.
I do dislike them also. Sure, they work as a catch-up mechanism, but they're just unfun.
I hate them because they are so devastating to receive. You have to complete it first, meaning everyobe at the table know what spaces on the board you MUST visit. Usually the player/s receiving a mandatory quest has immediately lost the game
In the games my group has played the Mandatory Quests usually have very little, if any, impact on the game. They often become dead cards for the person holding them because the other two players (yes we have a 3 player play group) have enough resources to complete them right away. We have thought of removing them, but only because they are dead cards not because they are annoying or too powerful.
@@chetil This was kind of my point when I said they become dead cards in your hand.
The 3 fire spread cards in Nemesis deck. Oh boy those ones drive me crazy. And they recommend close the doors when you simply does not have actions or cards enough to do that.
“Join the Winning team” in Arkham Horror 2nd edition is the only card I have ripped up… It turns you into a traitor and you are now trying to lose the game for everyone else… Terrible.
For Callous Guards, we houseruled that it only lasts for one turn.
good house rule.
That one, I hear that even the designer himself says to rip it up, because he feels he should have never included it in the game
@TerrickTerran I forget if I read that on bgg or my friends came up with it.
Mine stays in the box and never gets used.
I hate the Citizen Dawn table-wipe card in Sentinels of the Multiverse, I'm curious how or if they've amended it in the new edition
This one was officially retired in the latest expansion of spirit island/digital version but the blight card tipping point. Destroys 3 of your presence instantly which sometimes leads to your slow powers you've meticulously planned out not firing properly or in rare cases a game loss.
Sherlock Holmes - The Card Game has three of these types of cards: cancel effect (Alibi card), shuffle all hands and re-deal (Thick Fog card), and another player gains 10 points (a high score is bad; Telegram card). This game is from 1991.
I view Magic's counterspells as removal spells in blue. Black destroys, red does damage, white even exiles (which is worse), and blue counters something to the graveyard.
The Fool in Everdell was a card I was happy to house rule out of the game.
Strong disagree on this one. There are few things better than getting the fool played on you and then finding a way to tuck or discard it to use it as an advantage.
I agree for sure; the opponent always saves it for the 15th card and then there's nothing you can do
We ripped the space base card up. If the game had multiple cards that could hurt other opponents it might be acceptable. This is the only card in the game including expansions that hurts others. No place in the game
Point there. The same is true of the Fool in Everdell if you play that game.
Tom, would you lump a Card Zap from Cosmic Encounter in with number 10, or does that feel different for some reason? Why?
This immediately makes me think of Ad Astra. The game ends when someone hits fifty points, but there is a Hitchhikers Guide joke in the form of an Alien Artifact card that makes you the winner if you have exactly 42 points, which is very easy to do. There is also a card that scores you 10 points at the end of the game, and in a game that ends when someone hits 50, that is a massive swing.
Mine is very niche, but it's the Ambush! card from the Merlin expansion of Shadows over Camelot. It's an "event" style card that basically causes you to miss a turn. In a 5 or maybe even 6-player game of this one time I got hit with this twice in a row. It did become a good running joke in our group (just say "Ambush!" for a laugh when something bad happens), but it's definitely a tear uppable card.
May be a weird one, but the vampire rising out of the crypt vision card from Mysterium. There's nothing on that card that could be useful as a clue, it's always just a dead card.
The Favors in Root, the "reverse orientation" hazards from Cosmic Conflict
For Root, I've just been playing with the Exiles and Partisans deck instead which doesn't contain the Favors
I'd add from Agricola (the farming game, not the Roman General game): the Mail Coach Driver. First, it is an instant game winner if played with more than 2 turns left. You don't need to play the rest of the game, and the earlier it is played just makes it more of a slam dunk.
Second, it exacerbates the most frustrating part of the game for everyone else. Agricola is a pitiless worker placement game. Things have to be done precisely in order, and only one player per turn can take some of the most important actions, AND your family will starve (and you will lose) if you miss one of the checkpoints. A meager form of amelioration is that you can collect resources with an earlier action, and then use them in a later action in the same turn. Enter the Mail Coach Driver. Now everyone except the Mail Coach Driver has to wait to rhe end of the turn to collect their resources. That's like a one turn delay for each and every multi-step project. With only two turns to play before you have to fend off famine, you can't achieve much more than mere subsistence.
I played one game with it being used, and then permanently removed the Mail Coach Driver from the deck.
I only have the base game so I never knew this card. But wow, it looks completely broken even at first sight. How did it pass playtesting?
@@TheDarkever So that is an expansion card or promo or something? What does it do I don't think my version of the game has it.
I have to write this just to get it off my chest....
Null card - Frosthaven/Gloomhaven
I like games with careful planning, and I like games with random drama, but I don’t like both at the same time.
Yes, I typically count null as -2 and x2 as a +2 as the variant suggests to mitigate that much luck factor. But removing both would be nice and just have a different means to know when to reshuffle.
This is one of the reasons I don’t mind good house rules. I’m playing TTR rails and sails today, and I’m making that game way better and faster with 3 house rules. It’s my game and my time, so I have no problems tweaking the ruleset to compensate for universal complaints.
The Eldritch Horror card was the ONLY one I wanted to see on this list!
I don't mind the Callous Guards card in Guillotine. In my plays of this game, it doesn't stay out too long because the person who plays it eventually wants to be able to manipulate the line so will discard it at the strategic time to help them.
I extremely dislike any card that let's a person win automatically just by having that one card, or maybe the one card and one other criterion They could be behind the entire game and then pull out an immediate win. I was the one who had this type of card in a game and was also the one who was way behind and won because of that one card. I thought the card was ridiculous. I didn't win because I knew what I was doing; I won by the luck of the draw on one card. If we had liked the game enough overall to keep it, we would have trashed that card.
I hate cards that make you swap hands…
To recap: If a game has a purpose, and a single card derails its purpose or why the game is good… Rip. It. Up. ✌️😎
Yeah seeing this pattern made me think of the Legends set in Magic. It had a ‘bands with others” mechanic that was pretty lame to begin with then added more cards to counter this goofy little combat bonus than there were cards that could do it.
The first time I ever realized that game designers are not perfect was when playing Talsiman, and the card came us that says a bunch of thieves just stole all of your items.
I didn’t rip it up, but I put it under the insert so it would not get shuffled into the deck.😮
I have a few I'm sure, but the ones that I can think of off the top of my head are from Vindication (which I have taken out of my game instead of ripping up) and Coinbra (which sadly can't be taken out). The Vindication one is "Ruak, Defender of the Sacred Spirit." I love Vindication, probably top 10 for me, but that card is so broken. If you vindicate yourself and have that card, you just win the game, because he is ally #1, which means he is always the one that faces monsters when you "fight" one, and he literally can never die or be wounded, because he doesn't roll the black die. The monsters are the most point value cards, because they have both their own points, plus end-game scoring, so just getting a free monster every other turn kills the game for everyone else (also the fact that he rolls the resource die twice per fight means that if you get a lucky roll of two yellow, you could fight a monster two turns in a row, if nobody blocks the spaces). The one game I played where someone got that card, he beat the next closest person by easily 40 or more points, and there was really nothing anyone could do about it.
The Coinbra ones are the stupid "take that" cards. Why are those even in there? None of the rest of that game has that, and there's only a very few that do it, so that part really just should have been left out. Unfortunately, since you have to use all the cards in every game, you can't leave those out, so I'll just never play that game again, which is sad, because it was otherwise a decent game.
Inis has the best counterspell integration.
Exactly. Geis is one the best cards in board games
"All for nothing" is a great pick, cruel and unusual punishment!! another one for me almost bad enough to rip up is Medusa's "Gaze Of Stone" in Unmatched.
The Rogue card in Red Rising - only I couldn't ever because those cards are gorgeous!
If his ability hits it just completely cripples a players game. Doesn't feel good for anyone to play. Except maybe sociopaths.
In later C&C games, All-Out offensive is turned into "Cry Havoc" I think. You just roll dice equal to command and each symbol type activates an unit of that type. They do get buffed (+1 attack dice) but that's about it.
It's unpredictable so I only play as a last resort.
In Napoleonic, the equivalence (Elan) is pretty powerful as each dice activates one unit instead of each face type.
In one of the expansions to Kingsburg, you have a deck of event cards and draw one of them every turn. There is a card (well two) that's called The King is Sick. If you draw both of them the game just ends. What's the point of that? Just meaningless. We never play with them.
I'm not fond of the You Win card in Space Base either. It has won many times in our games due to silly combos.
And don't even get me started on MtG cards... so many cards there that I could rip up. We banned the card Time Stretch from Commander decks (it gives you 2 extra turns). Not because it was particularly good, but because it made the other players just sit there and wait for a long time.
What the random Roy at the end?? Did i miss an inside joke? 😅
I have been in Eldritch Horror and Space Base games where those cards came up and it ruins the game.
And in all my Cosmic Encounter games I never had Machine come into play, thank goodness!!!
The Skullport Lord card (Lords of Waterdeep) that gives you points for corruption. It's such a crap lord card to get, because whatever points you get for the corruption you have, you still have to score the negative points for having corruption. Almost no one I play with ends a game with corruption (maybe 1-2 at most if they really got unlucky with access to mitigating quests and buildigns), so having that lord is essentially to lose the game before you start.
I wholly agree with the crowd that's anti Mandatory quests, and I have removed those AND this Lord card from my copy of the game.
I also feel the lord that counts points for buildings is a bad lord to get. Maybe your experience is different, but in my playgroup we have taken it out. You are limited to the number of buildings you can control which puts you behind to start the game, plus if you cannot build a building (or get one off of a quest) every turn you have no chance of winning that game.
@@ryantomczak2248 I actually don't mind the builder lord card, sure there is competition on the buildings, but you do get more points for each building you do get and there are quests that can give you buildings. But the corruption lord is just a curse to get no matter how you look at it
@@mkitten13 I agree with the corruption lord being the worse of them, but the building lord is capped at either 8 or 9 buildings. Whatever the number of owner markers you have. If you miss a turn or two getting buildings you are so far behind. Meanwhile the other lords are fairly balanced. There are some quests that are more difficult to complete due to the colors you need (arcane with multiple purple for example), but for the most part they are balanced.
While I do not rip cards myself, there are some games that I have made rules changes to. Wizards from Avalon Hill. It is a fantasy adventure game that starts out cooperative (to a point), but ends up competitive. I do not mind that it ends competitively, but the ending is just a race to see who can collect all the gems first. It is very boring at the end.
Another game where I rewrote the rules a bit Gloomhaven. My playgroup found the monster AI to be too predictable. We liked some of the elements of Descent and wanted to incorporate them into Gloomhaven. We wrote 4 different monster AIs for different monster types. We added a treasure deck for non scenario specific treasure chests. The deck is small, only 8 cards, but it can be anything from an empty chest to a random item. We even added in a mimic from D&D that will automatically attack when the card is drawn. We also changed how the negative conditions work, mainly how you get/give them. Basically, you have to do damage on an attack that gibes a condition. If their shield absorbed the attack or if you draw Null, no condition was given. This also applies to the monsters when giving you conditions. Makes the game a little easier, but also more balanced. It felt broken when you always got poisoned even if they missed and also felt broken that you could wound/poison an enemy that you couldn’t damage. There are situations that will come up that we will have to find a way to deal with, I am sure.
7 Wonders Duel Agora: the conspiracy card that lets you steal a wonder.
Sometimes you just get it at the start of the game because of the new wonder.
What about Cosmic Zap in Cosmic Encounter, Tom? I wouldn't play without it.
Cosmic Zap is essential in Cosmic Encounter - sparing counter spells are really important in some games. I do see the unfun aspect of seeing everything countered.
Can the entirety of Phase 10 count?
Instead of ripping those cards, I suggest you burn them instead
It might seem like a strange choice since individual cards barely matter in this game, but in my copy of Deception Murder in Hong Kong we removed the “Kerosene” card. In the span of one week this card caused multiple fights amongst family members who could not agree on how to categorize a murder by Kerosene. It is now the stuff of legends
Just curious, how did it create such a mess? To me it screams Accident, although I can sort of understand if some player think of it as Suffocation or even Poison (if somebody is stupid enough to drink it, does it still count as murder?) 😜
@@TheDarkever That exact conversation derailed the entire game and made some people very angry with the forensic scientist. Then when it happened a second time we realized that it was just too OP lol
I like the Gordon from Space Base for one reason, buying extra cards on your turn. That and income increase are two vital things in Space Base. I would have no problem with that card if it was changed to "Gain 2 points and buy 1 or 2 extra cards/Gain 1 point and buy one extra"
I'm surprised you didn't bring up Tortoise when talking about machine. Tortoise is everything machine is but more egregious in every way possible. It actively equips the player to take multiple turns at once and it only triggers AFTER THE GAME ENDS! Someone FINALLY gets their 5th foreign colony, everyone is ready to move on.... but now the tortoise gets to take all their turns at once.
When I saw this list, I immediately thought of the No.1 card. I perversely quite like it and the hostility to it amuses me. :)
Another much discussed card is Campanile in Firenze.
The Reshuffle card in Dragonbond is very strong power, so it must either be used as last resort or as deliberate thing to mess with your opponents plan. Either way it's not something that you throw randomly.
Speaking of plauge, anytime I played Heroes of Might and Magic 3 and it was the week of THE PLAUGE!..... I would reload....
The Pegasus card in Cyclades!
Everdell - the fool is mine, its the only take that card in the massive deck, it might not come up in a game, but you have to play around it because it can end your game if you dont keep it in mind, game's much more enjoyable without it.
Pirate ship from a later expansion is a far better version of the fool.
I misteriously lost my All for Nothing Card from eldritch horror. One of these days I will search it I promise.
There are 2 cards in Jump drive that were just so OP that if you played it you win. We banned those two cards and leave them in the box.
Ironically the only card I’ve ripped up is from a different Arkham style game. The insanity card from Mansions of Madness 2 that turns you into a traitor literally screwed up a 4 hour game of that in a game where dying ends the game…
I actively loathe the "Reverend Mother Mohiam" card in Dune Imperium and have removed it from my game. Having all the other players discard two cards is a MASSIVE nerf to all the other players. Yes, I know it needs a specially built deck to be very affective, but I have been at the recieving end too many times for it to be fun. If a player get this card and build their deck right then the other players end up feeling like they only get half turns and usually end up losing.
I second this. It's not that it's OP; it's just not a fun card.
100%. This card can take a game I love and ruin it for other players. I also dislike the kwisatz haderach card. I know it’s expensive to get but it’s super powerful.
I still remember the first time I willingly tore up a card in Risk: Legacy, Top 10 gaming experience for sure!
It's been a while, but in one of the expansions to 1st edition Descent, there was a card that could transform all the players into a monkey for I believe multiple turns. It was as close to an instant win as that game had.
Saw this and immediately knew I had to watch. "Public disgrace" in Twilight Imperium 3rd edition. I spent three hours planning a way to come from way behind and potentially win a game with a huge three point turn, specifically avoided picking certain roles over multiple turns so that I could get initiative and pick first to finish executing my plan and on a WHIM a player used public disgrace and derailed the entire thing. Watching a plan played out over multiple hours ruined because of ONE card nearly put me off of the game permanently. That kind of lucky swing has no business in a 4x epic type game. I don't mind it in a quick take that style game because even if there's a degree of strategy, it's not going to be one you have to invest a lot of time into. But Twilight Imperium is a 6 hour race to get a few precious points, so a card that can just take an entire role away from a player is basically like "lose a turn" in a game where a "turn" takes an hour. Horrible.
Every time you rip a card an angel loses its wings lol
There's no winged angel left after all the legacy games I've played
What if there's a card that says "Every time you rip a card an angel loses its wings" and then you rip that up?!?
Good, we could use some more angels among us.
Fury of Dracula 2nd edition when the card comes up for Dracula to completely disappear anywhere on the board
Disney Villainous - “On The Run” from Yzma’s fate deck (put a hero from Yzma’s realm back into her fate decks, reshuffle and redeal four new decks). The fate decks all have a bit of take that, but that single card can completely undo the Yzma player’s entire game and essentially force them to start over
Every last card in the Uno Flip deck must be launched into the sun.
How about the card in Ark Nova giving you a Conservation Point every break? If you draw that early, then you are pretty well guaranteed victory.
Ark Nova overall needs a starting card normalization mechanism. I’ve seen people get a release conservation and the animal they needed on the opening round, and those that didn’t end up behind from the get go, as they quickly flip a card if their choice to the advanced side. Everyone else has to wait many more rounds.
Those that can do it, typically end up first or close in the end game.
If you don't like "cancel" cards. I'm curious, what are your thoughts on playing mindbugs in the card named Mindbug? It's kind of the same feeling as canceling, but man I love this game
That's the whole POINT of that game, so it's fine.
My vote would go for “Abduction” from Mice & Mystics. In this game, whenever you search a room for possible treasures, there is a chance you instead run into some bad stuff. This is fine. However, “Abduction” is the kind of bad stuff that is simply too punishing: you lose one of your characters until the enemies are cleared out, and on top of that, the "lucky" character loses all of their non-starting items and other hard-earned tokens. That card is a pain, and there is not one game of Mice & Mystics where I can say “Oh, it’s fair” when it shows up. I love the game, but I hate that card.
I agree 100% on the Space Base card. That card ruined the game for me! It made the game twice as long.
Uline in Nidavellir, I always take her out before starting!
I believe in allowing a player to make choices. This is about the number of cards drawn, and put into play. A tug of war between points. The only opportunity stealing event. By having your opponent to discard from the top of their deck. Its less invasive. A long drawn out game it could matter. In shorter games less effective.
I've only ever had one card I wanted to destroy. In Spirit Island you setup the game for the difficulty you want, then you draw Rising Interest In the Island on first turn (they did errata that later). You are now forced to discard from the invader deck due to not having any energy to pay yet, thus drastically spiking the difficulty compared to what you set it at.
Spheres of Influence has a fun counter card that prevents someone from nuking you. It's always satisfying because the other person is going to do so much damage.
I love the chanting ❤
The Salt Mine in Inis. It basically lets you steal a random card from another player on your every turn. Since the stolen card is random, it's unlikely to be particularly helpful to you on your turn (and you discard unused cards at the end), but it is very likely to competely mess up the other player's plans for their next turn. This both kills their fun for little payoff to you, and makes them re-plan their whole turn, which takes up time unnecessarily. And you repeat this every round.
I hated the Salt Mine the second I saw it. It would be better if it at least wasn't random, because then there would be an element of strategy to choosing the card and messing up the other player's turn in a way you can affect. But it still would be frustrating, as it is essentially a cancel card (which the game also has separately).
DPE aka. Destiny Hero Destroyer Pheonix Enforcer in Yu-Gi-Oh!. It's two of his three effects are 1. On Instant speed destroy one card you control (including DPE) and one card your opponent controls (without targeting even though you choose the cards) and destroy them. And 2. If this card is destroyed (yes his own effect counts), It comes back the next turn (yours and your opponents). It's annoying when it's there and it's very hard to get rid off.
Canceling it's revival effect is one way. Yu-Gi-Oh is all about cancel.
Battle Cry: All out offensive: We got a second deck of cards for battle cry and each player draws from their own deck, so both players can get it.
I'm not sure I can agree on the plague cards in King Maker. They are necessary to remove Royale heirs early and late to punish turtling which is the main problem with that game as a whole. Get an heir, defend them in a city (London, Calais, etc) and try to eliminate your rivals through war and attrition (plagues). Haven't played this in many years but if there were a better way to force armies out of cities then I agree with removing plagues but within the rules I don't see how the game would ever end...
I agree on the Dominion card. It is easy to filter out the ones that people don't like.
A card I have removed from Tekhenu is the one that allows you to score a decree a second time (way too strong since it doubles your best strategy).
The machine ruined a cosmic game for me and I went home and took it out lol. Good choice
The "Papa" card from Stranger Things: Upside Down is a newer one. It eliminates a major, extremely thematic, and helpful part of the game in helping Eleven - you just have to hope you can get lucky and use Eleven enough before he shows up.
I never have any more than 2-4 cancel cards in a deck out of principle. But you have to admit that cancelling a cancel card is fun, unless its cancelled itself or can't be cancelled. It happens.
Open Lord in the Lords of Waterdeep expansion. Completely breaks the game, especially a two player game.
The 'I Win' card in space base was fine for base game, but with the expansions where you can swap cards around and/or increase or manipulate the rolls it loses it's appeal.
I feel the Machine in cosmic encounter is self limiting. the time I played it I didnt have the hand to even use it. It is a boring alien tho, agreed