Fascinating to hear you lay this out so clearly Brian - and it totally matches my experience and way I gravitated to making coffee by flavor. I pull mainly medium dark roasts and drink them in short milk drinks, using a Niche and a HX machine. When I drink them without milk I have been pulling them pretty short around 1:1 or less. I recently borrowed a friends DE1XL and was amazed by how sweet and creamy my shots were on the Default profile. I think the lower pressure/flow rate vs. my HX really helps too. Ordered a flow control valve to put on the HX to see how that works. Currently using coffee from David Schomer’s Espresso Vivace in Seattle. Thanks for the excellent channel. Love it. Great work!
A lot of dark roast coffee are a blend with Robusta added so there is a lot more crema not because the temp is higher and also it depnds how fresh your beans are, the more closer to roast date the more crema due to trapped Co2
Temperature isn't discussed enough it seems. My understanding is that higher temperatures increase the speed of extraction but not the flavour if extraction % is kept the same between brews with different temps. It is just another variable. This would matter more with machines that have a limited temperature control like a heat exchanger without PID as dark roasts should require less time than lighter roasts with the other variables kept constant.
I usually drink medium roasts but it's obvious that you can't have the texture of dark or at least medium dark roast Ratio 1:2 doesn't work well with medium dark roasts, but 1:1.75 makes the coffee a sweet chocolate syrup with great texture and lasting after taste I would go to 1:1.5 and lower, only at very dark roasts
Yes, I love your content about dark roasts! First the Rocky video, now this. Keep it coming! I feel like dark roasts get a rap, but I've had Moka pot coffee that's tasted just like dark chocolate (just once though lol). Honestly, a bad light roast is just as terrible, just for different reasons
Just pulled this ristretto with a Volcanic Blend (very dark on the bag. uh oh) on DE1 Default. Not bitter, but a bit like drinking coffee concentrate. Tasted like double chocolate in a milk drink though. Another tool for the kit!
A high temp increases extraction and more water water increases extraction so it depends on how you define dark roast as visually its subjective, so for a very dark roast, basically almost black beans aka Italian style then lower the temp to 90 - 91 and the ristretto ratio should be 1:1 ratio and the espresso should never be 1:2 but 1:5 to 1:75. But if the roast profile is dark but not almost black dark then try raise the temp to 93 degrees and see how that goes. You are very right that you need to try it out and test but one variable at a time needs to change.
I've been doing lower dose ristrettos lately (not like 1:1 but I think that would be good too) after learning I really like the shorter ratios using the Europiccola which kinda forced me to do 15 or 16g in and about 28-31g out, (learned that my lever movement was restricted so now I can pull longer shots but I still prefer 30g out max). So I started doing the same thing with my Synchronika, and it works well for either light or dark roast. I think my grinders are what you'd call the fast extracting ones. I haven't really paid attention to how the temperature affects the body, that seems like something to experiment with.
Great video dismantling some of the myths surroungind dark roast extraction. On another note...what is that PF stand you have on the Niche? Looks lovely.
Just confirming the 1:1 ratio. In the video looks like you're pulling 1:0.5s . I had some good results with this, though taste was best at 88 degrees. In any case nice to see a video on the darker side! While I love my light roasts, I do prefer meds/darks for milk drinks.
Great stuff Brian. 2 questions, have you done a milk based drink with this type of shot? And what portafilter holder is on your Niche, and how do you like grinding with that? Thanks!
Very good material! I have a Fiorenzato F4 Nano with 58mm flat burrs and a 1Zpresso JX-PRO, I'm going to try it with both to see what happens. I would love to achieve a result similar to David Schomer's espresso hahahaha
I'm not sure how I've escaped bitter dark roasts all my coffee life Yet trying into light roasts I can't seem to get away from the astringent taste and never getting the fruity flavor claimed is in that little bean
Thanks Brian! This might be how I burn through a bag of dark kona I got as a gift. Sounds like a good base for milk drinks. For fast extracting flats, would you recommend starting with the Gentle and Sweet profile on the DE1, maybe just bumping the temp a few degrees? I'll play around, but probably just break out the hand grinder for this, both for the textured end product and so that my MPs don't get all oily :)
I don't get these coffee trends; bitters are all the rage in the craft cocktail scene, shots of pure fernet branca a signature barmen's drink and various amari all over the place, and yet here in the coffee scene, while working with a naturally bitter raw material, seems every other barista tries their damnnest to get away from making a bitter drink....
I think most dark roasts are just BAD, they're mass producing roasters usually, cheaper coffee since the flavours will be burned away anyway, but there are some roasters that have good darker roasts and that's likely what Brian uses, not star bucks espresso blend I'm guessing.
@@carsiotto I've definitely under roasted coffee myself (being a little overly cautious of going too dark!) and it turns put grassy and gross but haven't noticed that from roasters. I think most good roasters would make sure it's good and bad roasters usually wouldn't even attempt a light toast.
It appears to be a dual/double conical that I've seen on a few sites. Haven't seen much detailed info/reviews on it, thus far. Wonplug = seller?...not sure.
@@davidlogan2682 I was curious about that as well, was thinking of getting that, there's another one that is supposedly coming out which looks like a modified version of it called Momentum.
@@BensCoffeeRants Momentum seems to have adjustment mechanisms for each burr. It is difficult to know the adjustment details of the turquoise grinder, but maybe it does not have that feature...? Although, the burrs on the TH-cam vid (for the turquoise) looked more pour over friendly than the momentum's.
@@davidlogan2682 yeah I noticed that I believe you can only adjust the main 2nd burr on the wonplug but can adjust both on Momentum but not sure whether that just adds another complication/ variable or would be useful.
@@BensCoffeeRants yeah, these double burr grinders are interesting in concept, but I'll have to see them used, disassembled, amount of fines (on average) produced, etc. before I press the buy button.
That's like apples to oranges. Not that you cannot compare them, just very different. I haven't used an MC4 myself, but I'd think you get more clarity from the SSP burrs and probably a decent amount of clarity with more texture / body on the MC4.
@@BensCoffeeRants conical vs. flat is probably oranges and apples. But iirc even Brian said, that the MC4 is the closest one to the lab sweet (flat burrs). So I'm curious about the ristretto potential of a conical grinder like the MC4.
Fascinating to hear you lay this out so clearly Brian - and it totally matches my experience and way I gravitated to making coffee by flavor. I pull mainly medium dark roasts and drink them in short milk drinks, using a Niche and a
HX machine. When I drink them without milk I have been pulling them pretty short around 1:1 or less. I recently borrowed a friends DE1XL and was amazed by how sweet and creamy my shots were on the Default profile. I think the lower pressure/flow rate vs. my HX really helps too. Ordered a flow control valve to put on the HX to see how that works. Currently using coffee from David Schomer’s Espresso Vivace in Seattle. Thanks for the excellent channel. Love it. Great work!
Thanks so much for the comment Surindha!
Can the Lab Sweet handle dark roasts better than other big flats? What about EK Turkish burrs?
Would love to hear your thoughts on the robot in the background. I’m pretty sure you haven’t done a video on this yet? 🤖
A lot of dark roast coffee are a blend with Robusta added so there is a lot more crema not because the temp is higher and also it depnds how fresh your beans are, the more closer to roast date the more crema due to trapped Co2
Temperature isn't discussed enough it seems. My understanding is that higher temperatures increase the speed of extraction but not the flavour if extraction % is kept the same between brews with different temps. It is just another variable. This would matter more with machines that have a limited temperature control like a heat exchanger without PID as dark roasts should require less time than lighter roasts with the other variables kept constant.
I guess I don't share this hatred for dark roasts.
I usually drink medium roasts but it's obvious that you can't have the texture of dark or at least medium dark roast
Ratio 1:2 doesn't work well with medium dark roasts, but 1:1.75 makes the coffee a sweet chocolate syrup with great texture and lasting after taste
I would go to 1:1.5 and lower, only at very dark roasts
THIS WAS SO HELPFUL OMG THX
Yes, I love your content about dark roasts! First the Rocky video, now this. Keep it coming! I feel like dark roasts get a rap, but I've had Moka pot coffee that's tasted just like dark chocolate (just once though lol). Honestly, a bad light roast is just as terrible, just for different reasons
Just pulled this ristretto with a Volcanic Blend (very dark on the bag. uh oh) on DE1 Default. Not bitter, but a bit like drinking coffee concentrate. Tasted like double chocolate in a milk drink though. Another tool for the kit!
A high temp increases extraction and more water water increases extraction so it depends on how you define dark roast as visually its subjective, so for a very dark roast, basically almost black beans aka Italian style then lower the temp to 90 - 91 and the ristretto ratio should be 1:1 ratio and the espresso should never be 1:2 but 1:5 to 1:75. But if the roast profile is dark but not almost black dark then try raise the temp to 93 degrees and see how that goes. You are very right that you need to try it out and test but one variable at a time needs to change.
I've been doing lower dose ristrettos lately (not like 1:1 but I think that would be good too) after learning I really like the shorter ratios using the Europiccola which kinda forced me to do 15 or 16g in and about 28-31g out, (learned that my lever movement was restricted so now I can pull longer shots but I still prefer 30g out max). So I started doing the same thing with my Synchronika, and it works well for either light or dark roast. I think my grinders are what you'd call the fast extracting ones. I haven't really paid attention to how the temperature affects the body, that seems like something to experiment with.
Great video dismantling some of the myths surroungind dark roast extraction. On another note...what is that PF stand you have on the Niche? Looks lovely.
This stand is from CBB Planet!
I think with true charcoal it's basically impossible - but GMC ballpark stuff does the syrupy thing well. So do robusta blends, actually...
niche duo or niche zero for darker roasts?
Just confirming the 1:1 ratio. In the video looks like you're pulling 1:0.5s . I had some good results with this, though taste was best at 88 degrees. In any case nice to see a video on the darker side! While I love my light roasts, I do prefer meds/darks for milk drinks.
Any links to visualizer so we can get an idea of what these shots looks like graphically?
Just added!
Great stuff Brian. 2 questions, have you done a milk based drink with this type of shot? And what portafilter holder is on your Niche, and how do you like grinding with that? Thanks!
I just tried this on my La Pavoni Professional. 49th Parallel Old School Espresso. It was glorious! Thanks for the tip Brian!
I love 49th Parallel! 👏🏽
Dark roast ritrettos are also great for lattes
Very good material! I have a Fiorenzato F4 Nano with 58mm flat burrs and a 1Zpresso JX-PRO, I'm going to try it with both to see what happens.
I would love to achieve a result similar to David Schomer's espresso hahahaha
Buy dark and pull short. Schomer would be proud
I usually pull dark roast ristretto shots at ~88°C, but I'll give higher temperatures a chance.
I'm not sure how I've escaped bitter dark roasts all my coffee life
Yet trying into light roasts I can't seem to get away from the astringent taste and never getting the fruity flavor claimed is in that little bean
Thanks Brian! This might be how I burn through a bag of dark kona I got as a gift. Sounds like a good base for milk drinks. For fast extracting flats, would you recommend starting with the Gentle and Sweet profile on the DE1, maybe just bumping the temp a few degrees? I'll play around, but probably just break out the hand grinder for this, both for the textured end product and so that my MPs don't get all oily :)
Gentle + Sweet or Default with higher temps would work perfectly for this!
@@BrianQuan What is your "HT Default" profile from your Visualizer? Seems like it's flat flow for preinfusion then pressure profile?
@@kevinbkk9101 It is just the Default profile but the temp upped!
Which hand grinder is this Brian?
Any thoughts on preinfusion?
I don't get these coffee trends; bitters are all the rage in the craft cocktail scene, shots of pure fernet branca a signature barmen's drink and various amari all over the place, and yet here in the coffee scene, while working with a naturally bitter raw material, seems every other barista tries their damnnest to get away from making a bitter drink....
Thanks Brian. What is the drip tray you use with your decent ? I like to integrate my acacia too.
This is Euan Lakes drip tray!
Biggest takeaway is that dark roasts are amazing but most dint know how to use them
I think most dark roasts are just BAD, they're mass producing roasters usually, cheaper coffee since the flavours will be burned away anyway, but there are some roasters that have good darker roasts and that's likely what Brian uses, not star bucks espresso blend I'm guessing.
@@BensCoffeeRants yeah that can go for light roasts too though. Maybe it’s easier to roast light? Usually tastes like grassy battery acid regardless.
@@carsiotto I've definitely under roasted coffee myself (being a little overly cautious of going too dark!) and it turns put grassy and gross but haven't noticed that from roasters. I think most good roasters would make sure it's good and bad roasters usually wouldn't even attempt a light toast.
What’s the name of that turquoise hand grinder? Reminds me of a 1zpresso k-plus, but definitely isn’t it…
It appears to be a dual/double conical that I've seen on a few sites. Haven't seen much detailed info/reviews on it, thus far. Wonplug = seller?...not sure.
@@davidlogan2682 I was curious about that as well, was thinking of getting that, there's another one that is supposedly coming out which looks like a modified version of it called Momentum.
@@BensCoffeeRants Momentum seems to have adjustment mechanisms for each burr. It is difficult to know the adjustment details of the turquoise grinder, but maybe it does not have that feature...? Although, the burrs on the TH-cam vid (for the turquoise) looked more pour over friendly than the momentum's.
@@davidlogan2682 yeah I noticed that I believe you can only adjust the main 2nd burr on the wonplug but can adjust both on Momentum but not sure whether that just adds another complication/ variable or would be useful.
@@BensCoffeeRants yeah, these double burr grinders are interesting in concept, but I'll have to see them used, disassembled, amount of fines (on average) produced, etc. before I press the buy button.
MC4 works aswell? btw I would love a comparsion in taste between classic ssp flat burrs vs MC4 double conical
That's like apples to oranges. Not that you cannot compare them, just very different. I haven't used an MC4 myself, but I'd think you get more clarity from the SSP burrs and probably a decent amount of clarity with more texture / body on the MC4.
@@BensCoffeeRants conical vs. flat is probably oranges and apples. But iirc even Brian said, that the MC4 is the closest one to the lab sweet (flat burrs). So I'm curious about the ristretto potential of a conical grinder like the MC4.
cool shirt.
taste something you dont like is not a bad thing, expand you limited always experience in life...
That turquoise grinder has two burrs right? Btw there’s a ghost tooth portable hand grinder now! Flylily 鬼齒磨豆機
I'll check that out!