If this is a dirty return, should authorized retailers be allowed to accept returns on life supporting climbing gear? What do you think? Why wouldn't Dick's respond and just make an obvious mistake right?
I don't think life supporting gear should be returnable, if they're going to be resold, if it's a goodwill type deal, where the gear is destroyed then it's fine. But from the business end, that makes no sense.
A return option where the equipment is returned to the manufacturer who checks every detail about it to make sure it is not damaged and the correct rope I would be fine with a return system.
Former Black Diamond employee here, and Dicks sporting goods is by far the worst company I’ve ever dealt with. Wouldn’t surprise me that they pulled a stunt like that
@@prestonakin6618they're pretty decent. I use there carabineers, hardness and helmet. Their shoes are okay for a first or second pair. I haven't used their other stuff.
As usual, I'm impressed with Black Diamond's commitment to being decent freaking human beings and standing behind their products. Also, zero percent surprised at Dick's.
This is absolutely a swap. They bought them ten dollar rope from wish and swapped the packaging for the good rope. Dick just took the return and sent it back out without checking or caring. Dicks is a horrible brand anyway so this isn't a surprise.
Seems like it but the cheapest i can find this rope is about $30 and 60 days of shipping. If you are going to do dirty swaps, wouldn't it be worth doing that to more high end items? It just doesn't save enough money to seem worth it.
Nowadays with the urge for fast delibery times etc, online shops just basically scan codes and check for obvious damage when accepting returns and just scan codes for new sells. It happened to me recently with a superexpensive sleeping bag from a reputed online retailer and they admited that this is how it works. I recieved the wrong item because someone returned a different one (different brand but wirdly also superexpensive) with the right label on it.
Thanks for highlighting the importance of paying attention to where we buy gear from. That's crazy! As a side note, polyethylene is not only for cheap ropes. Dyneema is also polyethylene (ultra high molecular weight polyethylene), but certainly you don't typically find dynamic ropes made of PE.
Sounds like Dick's are failing to manage PPE sales properly, or someone in their warehouse is swapping out expensive gear for cheap for their own gain. I worked at an established outdoor retailer in the UK for some years, and we would not accept returns of any climbing gear which was sold in store. The law in the UK required us to accept returns for online purchases, but everything returned in this was packaged up separately to other returns, and sent to faulty goods rather than standard returns. My understanding was that it would be destroyed for the reasons you listed (dropped, exposed to chemicals, swapped out for counterfeit etc.). The risk that the company would be putting itself at by potentially selling unsafe PPE where it's easily preventable vastly outweighs the cost of losing the product.
Someone bought the rope, swapped it with an Ali special, and the drones at Dicks don't know the difference, chucked it back on the shelf. Happens all the time with crooks.
Almost deffinitely a case of someone bought, swapped for a cheap chinese rope and returned for a quick 8x profit and employees didnt know how to check...seller definitely needs to investigate how widespread this issue is and how many times it has happened. Returning of any soft goods that are lifesaving and reselling is pretty sketchy. Dicks needs to take it seriously.
Just want to check/confirm. There's a reputable climbing/access equipment retailer in the UK called Dick's. This looks to be a different company. Just don't want their reputation soiled by another company with the same name doing crappy things.
Absolutely - Dick's in the UK is a superb business run by passionate, helpful and informed climbers. If you want the very best advice and service at great prices I can recommend them whole heartedly having used them for years.
I will have to keep a slightly open mind that if something good is said about "Dick's" that it might be the UK retailer. Because here it is only liked by grandmas and kids without money/experience. I commonly forget that it even exists. Dick's in the US is a generic large box store that sells athletic equipment and clothing for about the last 15 years. It has a huge variety of sports and is okay for beginners of a given sport/activity, but most of the selections for any one sport is small. It is like shopping at Walmart, you shouldn't expect to get anything quality but you can get a skateboard, tennis racket, bike, violin, and water skis all in one shop. You really need to go to a specialty shop.
Just throwing in that the Dick's Climbing shop based in the UK (entirely unrelated to Dick's Sporting Goods in the US) is a great shop. If it weren't for Brexit, I'd probably still be shopping with them, but customs makes shipping to Ireland an awful pain.
In my local area, there's a Dicks and several other outdoor retailers, and in my experience Dicks has always been full of low quality knockoff-level gear that's on par with what you'd find at a Walmart or Target's "camping goods" section. Not surprised that this kind of returns scam (at least that seems to be what's going on) works on them. It could even be that the employee who handled the return knew something was up but didn't care and approved it anyway because it's easier than the paperwork required otherwise. I wouldn't trust Dicks for life-supporting camping gear and I wouldn't trust it for climbing gear either.
So glad I know what to look for in my gear. Videos like this helped me learn the difference between sketchy stuff and the bomber stuff. Actually I bought stuff from extreme gear to support the channel too. John is awesome. Keep up the good work guys!!
Dirty return is certainly possible, but given the claimed neatness of the packaging I bet it’s a supply chain issue. It’s possible that Dick’s themselves got counterfeit goods and didn’t realize it, or contracted out to a third party that is drop shipping counterfeit stuff.
Here's why I don't believe this is a supply chain issue: If we take Black Diamond at it's word that the packaging is genuine, that means the genuine rope is out there without the packaging. The real rope without the packaging is as worthless as the fake rope. I guess it could go all the way back to a ghost shift at the place that makes the packaging. That'd be scary as the entire BD inventory would be questionable.
@HowNOT2 first off as always great video! Your content is so important for our community and I really appreciate all the work you put in to this content! I didn't see anyone else mention this so I'd like add one more perspective. As an engineer working with safety critical systems I'd say the responsiblity rests fully with BD. I believe the theories of dirty return or the dicks employee swap. However, even if there are procedures in place to prevent this Black Diamond can and should do more to prevent it. Generally in industry the hiarachy of controls used for safety management follows this order: Elimination, Substitution, Engineering Controls, Administrative Controls, then Personal Protective Equipment. In this example the two relevant categories are Engineering controls (design the system to have less risk) and administrative controls (enact organizational strategies to mitigate the risk). It seems Black Diamond completely skipped over solutions for using packaging design to mitigate this risk and went straight to administrative controls which rely on people following correct procedures. It would cost them very little to engineer tamper proof packaging and it is in their best interest to ensure consumers can trust their branded products. This issue applies to most other climbing gear. I first noticed this with carabiners that are often just clipped to their packaging with nothing preventing removing and replacing the product before reaching the consumer without any way for them to know. This is completely unacceptable. The only arguments I can hear against this would be the slight added cost and increase in packaging material required when comparison to the likely low occurrence of this kind of issue. However the same can be said for most food products which already feature this type of packaging. We should expect more from these products we trust our lives with!
Just as a side note, there’s nothing inherently “wrong” with spliced eyes. Tree climbers use them frequently when the bulk of a knot tends to interfere with other components of the climbing system. And at least in theory, a proper splice will preserve more of the rope’s strength than even the best knot.
Personally I wouldn't trust an Ali express/knock off brand spliced eyes. A different sort of problem, but look at those early Amazon basics electronics that kept bursting in flame, I just don't trust knock off/cheap QA
Sketchy as hell. I got nervous for a sec at the beginning of the video, I bought a new 60m version of that Black Diamond rope, got a great deal on FB Marketplace, and I thought "oh shit!"....as soon as I saw the thimbled ends and saw the sheath up close I had a sigh of relief.....I really feel that some of the "reputable" retailers like Amazon etc. should have more enforcement on false "Dangerous" marketing on their platforms. I get having a certain level of personal responsibility, but noobs to the climbing community that may not have good mentors could end up being in another article in AAC Accidents in North American Mountaineering. Thanks again Ryan for being a platform for reason and logic.
Coming from 2 decades of card collecting, I always expect everything I buy my be checked. Its well known people go to the shops and buy a product, replace the authentic product with a replica then reseal the packaging and take it back for a refund. The next person who purchases it blames the store, the store blames there supplier, meanwhile the scammer doesnt get blamed and keeps the profits. This is why all climbing saftey equipment is/should be "no refund on saftey equipment" and people should accept that no returns policy. It is there to protect you from having a scammer repackage & return scam resulting in your tampered product failing and costing your life.
Splice ends are used for tree work. Alot of tree guys and girls like the splice end as their termination end. Keeps their climbing system simple and clean looking. Better than an anchor or double fisherman's.
I recently bought 2 static climbing ropes from Amazon. The brand name is Emekian. I paid $40 for a 100' rope. It's a good looking rope, but I'm new to tree climbing & haven't experienced a lot of good ropes. This one has yellow plastic eyelets, but the stitching is inside shrink-tubing. In my mind I considered that the cheapest rope on Amazon might not be a safe rope. Not sure how this vid just happened to pop into my algorithm, but I'm glad it did.
BUY IT AND BREAK IT!!! (are we not entertained?) Seriously though the knock off gear break test videos are a lot of fun, like I love the canyon series but sometimes it hurts my unsophisticated sport climber brain
What is most scary about this, is that if the ends weren't whipped and had regular "fake" black diamond rope ends with length, rope type etc written on them then this rope could have been used for climbing and whipping and omg...
I am curious about that! I don't actually know how bad a static rope is to whip on, I just know I'm really struggling to find volunteers for some human testing :)
@@HowNOT2 Maybe get one of the handicapped climbers, they're not going to get double paralyzed right? But in all seriousness, the dummy on the drop tower is probably a very good indication for the difference in severity, so you know whether it will just hurt like hell or break you in half (and then still please don't do any human testing).
Hey there! I hope you actually read this Ryan, My name is Joaquin, I am from Guadalajara in Mexico, there is a brand that is sold a lot over here through a huge store called Decathlon; the brand´s name is Simmond and as far as I have been able to find out they are a legit brand, but I would be super hyped if you could break test some of their gear. Since they are on the cheap end, not much people trust the the products they manufacture, I personally have a few pieces of Simmond gear but they sell everything from climbing shoes to climbing ROPES (which I do not necesarilly trust) and would love to know if the gear fear I have and I know a lot of other people share is out of place and if its not, then I can extend the info to a lot of people down here.... Some friends and I really enjoy and learn a lot with your content, We appreciate you lots bro!
Simmond is a brand which started in the early 1900s. It's now owned by decathlon (the world's largest outdoor retailer), and is totally fine and legit. Their kit will be safe and certified, but certainly on the cheaper end. Simond started as a blacksmithing company, and they probably don't have a rope factory of their own. This means their ropes will most likely be getting made by one of the major European rope manufacturers.
@@robertwhite721 I really appreciate the info! The fact they sell literally everything climbing related was a little odd to me, but now It makes more sense... thank you as well Robert!
I like people's responses on here, and keep in mind a few break tests in my lab is far far from certifying that gear is safe. It needs break tests from multiple batches over time and their quality control processes checked. I try to make my lab more about scenarios, different contexts and systems as a whole being tested. Which also need to be taken as a grain of salt as they are just a few tests.
When the camera came close to the rope and showed the red thimble and red on blue pattern I constantly recognize it. My friend bought exact same one after I told him "I may trust chinese carabiners that look proper, but I don't trust their ropes." 🙃😅
This is crazy and a bit scary. The sewn ends sort of gave that one away. But it could also have been a model where that wasn't the case. That being said, I wouldn't overstate the issue about leading on a static rope. It does make harder falls and I'm not recommanding it - but it does work and doesn't necessarily get you an injury in case of a fall. Had an episode where a friend of mine by mistakes brought a static rope to the crag and had a bunch of whippers on it. It thought my belayer just sucked, but turns out it wasn't her fault (she's a great belayer usually).
I would expand this to so many other industries: I just got a $30 bike stand painted blue to look like the $200 park tools stand I ordered. Probably a dirty return. I've heard a dozen stories about people getting fake or lower end power tools from big box stores. They repackage returns and sell them as new, and some stores will even blame you as the customer. Open everything in the store, at the register, and confirm you are getting that you are paying for. There are so many thieves and scammers these days it's ridiculous.
Just an other valuable important vid. on this terrible topic. Thank you so much for your honest efforts man! By the way, love ya content!!! Please never stop uploading thinks like that and don´t be afraid to make uncofortable thinks like this clear... PEACE!!!
If anyone thinks that in a warehouse which dispatches orders to the retail clients you have only employees picking and packing (and dealing with returns) which are "experts" in the brand, well... I think you should rethink your vision how warehouses work and how online retail sells the products (when it comes to logistics)
I was slightly worried with the title. In the UK we don’t have “Dick’s Sporting Goods” but we do have a specialist climbing store in Bristol, called “Dick’s Climbing”. They are not related companies. “Dick’s Climbing” is a legit, independent store specialising in climbing equipment.
When you return something to ROI they sell it AS IS and give a pretty clear warning that they can't guarantee it's condition hence the 40-90% off.. Last time i was there a girl tried to return a NICEEE $400 rope but she wasn't a member and bought through a side vendor on their website.. I was standing a few feet away look at ropes and offered to scoop her much longer much nicer rope for ~$250.. Simultaneously found a new pair of climbing shoes in my size 90% on the return shelf for like $15
Dirty returns are real! Bought a pool from Wal Mart and got home to find out someone packaged the old junk pool they were replacing and returned it. The only reason they gave me my money back was because I was calling every customer I could over to the desk and telling them how they did my young son. Imagine having to shame Walmart into honoring the products they sell.
Hmm... The way that Dick's Sporting Goods appears to have (failed to ) handled this, first in letting it happen, but even more after it had happened, suggests that they are working hard to live up to their name... And I'm not referring to the "Sporting Goods-bit"...
I think a bigger problem is lurking under the surface. I came across a similar rope on Amazon. I emailed the seller asking for things like UIAA certifications. I wrote a review pointing out the deficiencies and how it is not a climbing rope and pointed it out to Amazon (who did nothing). I have also seen a display in a major retailer (Think the three letter co op store) that sells a lot of gear that had a rope in a window display getting UV struck...for weeks if not months. We have a lot of people working low paying retail jobs dealing with this gear that we need to trust our lives to. Dicks seems like a place to get some shoes or a base ball bat. Most of their camping gear is bellow my standards and I have never seen climbing gear in one of their brick and mortar stores. Maybe they are authorized to sell BD headlamps, clothing or other non PPE stuff and someone at Dicks just started to add other BD stuff for sell not understanding the potential ramifications. Because this gear is so specialized with very important considerations I would purpose a standard to be met by retailers to be able to sell climbing and mountaineering gear. A standard about employee training on storage, handling gear, packaging for shipping, return processing and such. More work for the gear manufactures as they may need to have two levels of authorized retailer, one for clothes and another level for PPE. This would need to be a push from the all the manufactures for the interest of the safety of their customers.
People who buy that stuff on Amazon have no idea what certifications are, by UIAA or otherwise, and think nothing of trusting their lives to shady products. It's the wild west.
Hey guys, I'm new to Rappelling and right now I'm only in the reading and learning phase. I appreciate this site so much because of all the knowledge and experience you share to keep us safe. Where do you buy your ropes? This video gave me a scare, being so new and not knowing what companies or brands to purchase or look into. I would really appreciate any help with that type of information. Again, thank you for an awesome site filled with so much knowledge and experience. Take care and please be safe.
bulk bulk bulk. lots of companies are buying and recieving RANDOM products from RANDOM suppliers. I work for a retail store in Ohio and we get literal BULK pallets of off brand crap. and UPCs are not the same but they are considered by the store buyers to be the "same product". In my opinion, its compulsive store buyers and passive store regulations. I have talked to corporate employees and they dont care. Ive been told that the products are "close enough" and "we will sell it"
Something that I've heard of happening in the tech world, could be a similar thing going on here, is a back end employee switching out legit products for knock offs and then selling the legit ones on a place like FB marketplace or some other way and then moving on to the next store.
I thought about that, but how much can you sell a BD rope for without packaging? And the aliexpress rope was $30ish. WIth only a $60 "profit", minus the FB discount you have to sell it for - is it worth all the hassle? I can see someone doing this for laptops or something more valuable.
@@HowNOT2 While there might not be much profit on a single rope if you could get access to enough of them and can keep for geting caught it might be worth the risk to someone who is desperate enough. What ever it was that happened In this situation, it is scary to think of how many people who are just getting into climbing might be on these ropes because they saw a reputable companies name on the product and didn't know any better.
@@HowNOT2 Maybe the thief didn't want to sell the rope. Maybe they just wanted a free BD rope? For a dick's employee, $60 is a lot money. That's almost a full days wages.
The two most likely options: 1. "Dirty Return" 2. Staff stole the original and swapped it with the Ali rope. In all likelihood, it's happened more than once. Other options don't really explain the packaging.
Would you be kind to test this rope please? I use it for hammocking and so far cannot complain. I believe I have 8mm rope which I use as a ridge line for longer spans between hook points (like trees being 10-15m apart etc). I looked for static rope and my one was labelled static but it would still nice to see how much can it take. I had a two large adults sitting in the hammock (approx 110kg + 100kg) and a couple "bouncing" (110kg + 65kg) heavily for a while and this rope performed great. Giving all angles and the load I believe this rope can take surprisingly good loads... Obviously I am not talking about reliability nor any form or certification ;) Thanks :*
This is an interesting story. If you're gonna steal a rope, why pick this relatively cheap one? I own one of these Black Diamond rope and the main reason to buy it was the already competitive price. Anyway, would love to see you test one of these Ali ropes, especially what happens to the climber when taking a big whipper on a static rope. Would also be nice to see a comparison with the real black diamond rope. Thank you for your video's Ryan!
Well I think I have an answer for that question. Why pick this relatively cheap rope? For the exact same reason that low value currency is counterfeit overwhelmingly more than high figure ones. It reduces the chance of people realizing the cheat and therefore being caught. If the blame is not on Dick's, I'm pretty sure that they don't bother themselves checking every single cheap product return.
IMO, Someone got 2 ropes for Christmas, a $50 professional rope and a $90 recreational rope, and swapped the packaging so they kept the one they wanted and still got the bigger refund. Black Diamond's packaging is a PIA to remove specifically to prevent people doing this swap easily at scale in the supply chain, it was probably an actual climber.
lol iso certs are more employee treatment if i remember. its legit cert. but not for materiel, if it was for the product its food related. but thats the iso 14001 i think. it wasnt specifically my job we had the 9001 and 14001 and maybe like a 12 or 10 also. there were 3. this was in a winery though
ISO 9001 is a manufacturing quality standard - but it's generic to any industry, so they prove you have written quality procedures and follow them. Until recently, you could technically get ISO9001 certified if your official procedure was "we do not perform quality control, we do this by not calibrating anything or even looking at finished product" the only reason nobody did that is the documents are public so everyone would see. The way it's supposed to work is they say "we test one part from every lot according to XYZ industry standard, if it fails we destroy the lot" or something like that (and an inspector can prove they really do that).
ISO 9001 certification, if they have it, means they have written procedures for all aspects of their business. It does not mean those procedures are good.
Lots of retail chains are now trying to compete in ecommerce by letting 3rd party sellers list items for sale. I've gotten so tired of having to check thru amazon listings for where some product will ship from and who is actually selling it... Nothing beats going to a local store and looking at the physical item before buying now. Ordering online is such a toss up :\
The gym I grew up climbing in use static ropes, and still use them to this day, the walls are only 22'-24' high, and all are TR setup. The falls are not bad at all, but it is a TR setup so,... you ain't falling far/whippin' . The stiffness of the ropes for tying knots, & belaying through devices sucks tho, & lowering kids you literally have to feed rope into your device.
there is another option that some employee saw the price difference between these fake ropes and the real ones and decided to swap the real for the fake in order to sell them at a profit. the fact that this happened to an online sale makes me think this might be the most likely option because people aren't always looking at it and then it is more likely to go unnoticed.
scary out there... i am not a climber, but if i were i would buy only from a climbing trusted place because i really don't want to cut corners on my life.
A quick look at Dick’s return policy indicates that load bearing gear is not excluded in any way (but you can’t return Yeezys). Seems clear this was a dirty return. And yea, returns on load bearing gear shouldn’t be allowed anywhere.
Some people need to realize that the only thing you should ever buy from black diamond is their hardware. Spend the extra money on a Mammut and LaSports.
Their buyer and probably got a better deal from a new "vendor" and dont really care about what the product actually is. As long as they make their byers bonus, they do not care about if the product is legit at all. That happens in the hardware stores in the east anyway.
The lady said the packaging was intact. There's really only one explanation, & that's someone has pirated the packaging & somehow inserted themselves into Dick's supply chain. The OTHER explanation would be that a shipping employee went through the trouble of perfectly packaging a slightly less expensive rope so he could acquire a Black Diamond rope. It was done in bulk to make a big profit, not $50. One last scenario: an insane person did this repackage job hoping to hurt someone.
Interestingly many rope companies make rope that is uncertified and sells in the US and many other countries. Some even claim their rope is made in Canada ;-) but hey we know differently. So if we actually set standards and stick to them and even make the rope in house with real certifications and standards, we wouldn't encourage this behaviour.... This is just the tip of the iceberg with a lot more to come!
Dick’s is a publicly traded corporation so “maximizing shareholder value” is the only concern it can respond to. Also something interesting: “In February 2023, Dick’s Sporting Goods purchased Moosejaw from Walmart for an undisclosed amount.” So Moosejaw is Dick’s.
How are you supposed to climb using a 35m rope? Even on the website it states the rope is 35 meters, that seems like a big tip off that something was wrong. I don't think black diamond makes any climbing ropes under 60 meters.
I found this rope on Amazon and I was wondering if you would like to test it it looks to be a pretty decent rope.Rock-N-Rescue Heat Resistant Personal Escape Rope - 50 Feet Long, 8mm, NFPA 1983, RNR Poseidon Safe Tech, Firefighting and Rescue
AliExpress is one thing but Amazon has this shit for sale too. A massive American company like them and Dick's need to be held responsible for selling dangerous gear. When I started climbing I bought one of those cheap Amazon ropes that are advertised for climbing but realized once it arrived that it was probably not a good idea to use. How many beginners aren't going to have that intuition.
I think you should have bought the same rope again from Dick's. Would you get another counterfeit? Good on Black Diamond for replacing the rope. I expect they will issue an explanation soon, along with a guide to avoid counterfeits.
If this is a dirty return, should authorized retailers be allowed to accept returns on life supporting climbing gear? What do you think? Why wouldn't Dick's respond and just make an obvious mistake right?
If they respond, they open themselves to litigation.
Looks like a dirty return by a lowlife.
Absolutely no returns on life sensitive equipment in my opinion. If the provenance can't be guaranteed, it's as good as garbage.
I don't think life supporting gear should be returnable, if they're going to be resold, if it's a goodwill type deal, where the gear is destroyed then it's fine. But from the business end, that makes no sense.
A return option where the equipment is returned to the manufacturer who checks every detail about it to make sure it is not damaged and the correct rope I would be fine with a return system.
Former Black Diamond employee here, and Dicks sporting goods is by far the worst company I’ve ever dealt with. Wouldn’t surprise me that they pulled a stunt like that
Theyre dicks after all
Is true black diamond a good and reliable product ?
@@prestonakin6618they're pretty decent. I use there carabineers, hardness and helmet. Their shoes are okay for a first or second pair. I haven't used their other stuff.
@@prestonakin6618 It is ! One of the most reputable climbing gear companies out there
As usual, I'm impressed with Black Diamond's commitment to being decent freaking human beings and standing behind their products. Also, zero percent surprised at Dick's.
This is absolutely a swap. They bought them ten dollar rope from wish and swapped the packaging for the good rope. Dick just took the return and sent it back out without checking or caring. Dicks is a horrible brand anyway so this isn't a surprise.
I wonder if being a dick is a prerequisite to work at Dicks
Seems like it but the cheapest i can find this rope is about $30 and 60 days of shipping. If you are going to do dirty swaps, wouldn't it be worth doing that to more high end items? It just doesn't save enough money to seem worth it.
Not for many of us perhaps, but I've known people willing to crawl through fire to save a fraction of what they would have here
@@HowNOT2 perhaps they did it on a larger scale, not just on this one. buying the cheap rope in bulk and reselling the blackdiamond ones
Nowadays with the urge for fast delibery times etc, online shops just basically scan codes and check for obvious damage when accepting returns and just scan codes for new sells. It happened to me recently with a superexpensive sleeping bag from a reputed online retailer and they admited that this is how it works. I recieved the wrong item because someone returned a different one (different brand but wirdly also superexpensive) with the right label on it.
Thanks for highlighting the importance of paying attention to where we buy gear from. That's crazy! As a side note, polyethylene is not only for cheap ropes. Dyneema is also polyethylene (ultra high molecular weight polyethylene), but certainly you don't typically find dynamic ropes made of PE.
Sounds like Dick's are failing to manage PPE sales properly, or someone in their warehouse is swapping out expensive gear for cheap for their own gain. I worked at an established outdoor retailer in the UK for some years, and we would not accept returns of any climbing gear which was sold in store. The law in the UK required us to accept returns for online purchases, but everything returned in this was packaged up separately to other returns, and sent to faulty goods rather than standard returns. My understanding was that it would be destroyed for the reasons you listed (dropped, exposed to chemicals, swapped out for counterfeit etc.). The risk that the company would be putting itself at by potentially selling unsafe PPE where it's easily preventable vastly outweighs the cost of losing the product.
Should at least make rugs out of em
Someone bought the rope, swapped it with an Ali special, and the drones at Dicks don't know the difference, chucked it back on the shelf.
Happens all the time with crooks.
Could even be her being a chancer, but it seems like a lot of work for her to stir up something like this.
Just something to keep in mind
Almost deffinitely a case of someone bought, swapped for a cheap chinese rope and returned for a quick 8x profit and employees didnt know how to check...seller definitely needs to investigate how widespread this issue is and how many times it has happened. Returning of any soft goods that are lifesaving and reselling is pretty sketchy. Dicks needs to take it seriously.
@@CameronB773 I don't think the end game for her would be worth a $100 disposable rope if she was found to be a fraud.
This is the most likely scenario
...Drones....
Just want to check/confirm. There's a reputable climbing/access equipment retailer in the UK called Dick's. This looks to be a different company. Just don't want their reputation soiled by another company with the same name doing crappy things.
Absolutely - Dick's in the UK is a superb business run by passionate, helpful and informed climbers. If you want the very best advice and service at great prices I can recommend them whole heartedly having used them for years.
Dicks sporting goods is like the sports shop version of Wal-Mart. And its definitely not associated with the UK dicks.
I will have to keep a slightly open mind that if something good is said about "Dick's" that it might be the UK retailer. Because here it is only liked by grandmas and kids without money/experience. I commonly forget that it even exists.
Dick's in the US is a generic large box store that sells athletic equipment and clothing for about the last 15 years. It has a huge variety of sports and is okay for beginners of a given sport/activity, but most of the selections for any one sport is small. It is like shopping at Walmart, you shouldn't expect to get anything quality but you can get a skateboard, tennis racket, bike, violin, and water skis all in one shop. You really need to go to a specialty shop.
Dicks Sporting Good is a USA chain that sells base ball, soccor, and skate equipment. It is news to me they sell climbing gear.
Just throwing in that the Dick's Climbing shop based in the UK (entirely unrelated to Dick's Sporting Goods in the US) is a great shop. If it weren't for Brexit, I'd probably still be shopping with them, but customs makes shipping to Ireland an awful pain.
In my local area, there's a Dicks and several other outdoor retailers, and in my experience Dicks has always been full of low quality knockoff-level gear that's on par with what you'd find at a Walmart or Target's "camping goods" section. Not surprised that this kind of returns scam (at least that seems to be what's going on) works on them. It could even be that the employee who handled the return knew something was up but didn't care and approved it anyway because it's easier than the paperwork required otherwise. I wouldn't trust Dicks for life-supporting camping gear and I wouldn't trust it for climbing gear either.
So glad I know what to look for in my gear. Videos like this helped me learn the difference between sketchy stuff and the bomber stuff.
Actually I bought stuff from extreme gear to support the channel too. John is awesome. Keep up the good work guys!!
Thank you!
Dirty return is certainly possible, but given the claimed neatness of the packaging I bet it’s a supply chain issue. It’s possible that Dick’s themselves got counterfeit goods and didn’t realize it, or contracted out to a third party that is drop shipping counterfeit stuff.
Here's why I don't believe this is a supply chain issue: If we take Black Diamond at it's word that the packaging is genuine, that means the genuine rope is out there without the packaging. The real rope without the packaging is as worthless as the fake rope. I guess it could go all the way back to a ghost shift at the place that makes the packaging. That'd be scary as the entire BD inventory would be questionable.
@HowNOT2 first off as always great video! Your content is so important for our community and I really appreciate all the work you put in to this content! I didn't see anyone else mention this so I'd like add one more perspective. As an engineer working with safety critical systems I'd say the responsiblity rests fully with BD. I believe the theories of dirty return or the dicks employee swap. However, even if there are procedures in place to prevent this Black Diamond can and should do more to prevent it.
Generally in industry the hiarachy of controls used for safety management follows this order: Elimination, Substitution, Engineering Controls, Administrative Controls, then Personal Protective Equipment. In this example the two relevant categories are Engineering controls (design the system to have less risk) and administrative controls (enact organizational strategies to mitigate the risk). It seems Black Diamond completely skipped over solutions for using packaging design to mitigate this risk and went straight to administrative controls which rely on people following correct procedures.
It would cost them very little to engineer tamper proof packaging and it is in their best interest to ensure consumers can trust their branded products. This issue applies to most other climbing gear. I first noticed this with carabiners that are often just clipped to their packaging with nothing preventing removing and replacing the product before reaching the consumer without any way for them to know. This is completely unacceptable. The only arguments I can hear against this would be the slight added cost and increase in packaging material required when comparison to the likely low occurrence of this kind of issue. However the same can be said for most food products which already feature this type of packaging. We should expect more from these products we trust our lives with!
Just as a side note, there’s nothing inherently “wrong” with spliced eyes. Tree climbers use them frequently when the bulk of a knot tends to interfere with other components of the climbing system. And at least in theory, a proper splice will preserve more of the rope’s strength than even the best knot.
Personally I wouldn't trust an Ali express/knock off brand spliced eyes. A different sort of problem, but look at those early Amazon basics electronics that kept bursting in flame, I just don't trust knock off/cheap QA
These were sown loops, not spliced eyes though.
I bet you never climber, right? :D
I've used properly woven spliced eyes on some 2.5 ton test tow rope for years without any loosening or breakage.
@@markkNL Those are, or at least appear to be, sewn or “Viking” spliced eyes. Fairly common in tree work.
Sketchy as hell. I got nervous for a sec at the beginning of the video, I bought a new 60m version of that Black Diamond rope, got a great deal on FB Marketplace, and I thought "oh shit!"....as soon as I saw the thimbled ends and saw the sheath up close I had a sigh of relief.....I really feel that some of the "reputable" retailers like Amazon etc. should have more enforcement on false "Dangerous" marketing on their platforms. I get having a certain level of personal responsibility, but noobs to the climbing community that may not have good mentors could end up being in another article in AAC Accidents in North American Mountaineering.
Thanks again Ryan for being a platform for reason and logic.
Amazon product descriptions: the definition of dangerous mis-information.
Not sure if this rope was ever sold through Amazon or AliExpress, but I'm pretty sure that both Bezos and Ma care exactly this much about my life.
Coming from 2 decades of card collecting, I always expect everything I buy my be checked. Its well known people go to the shops and buy a product, replace the authentic product with a replica then reseal the packaging and take it back for a refund. The next person who purchases it blames the store, the store blames there supplier, meanwhile the scammer doesnt get blamed and keeps the profits.
This is why all climbing saftey equipment is/should be "no refund on saftey equipment" and people should accept that no returns policy. It is there to protect you from having a scammer repackage & return scam resulting in your tampered product failing and costing your life.
Splice ends are used for tree work. Alot of tree guys and girls like the splice end as their termination end. Keeps their climbing system simple and clean looking. Better than an anchor or double fisherman's.
I recently bought 2 static climbing ropes from Amazon. The brand name is Emekian. I paid $40 for a 100' rope. It's a good looking rope, but I'm new to tree climbing & haven't experienced a lot of good ropes. This one has yellow plastic eyelets, but the stitching is inside shrink-tubing. In my mind I considered that the cheapest rope on Amazon might not be a safe rope. Not sure how this vid just happened to pop into my algorithm, but I'm glad it did.
You can test your Amazon rope before you use it for climbing.
BUY IT AND BREAK IT!!!
(are we not entertained?)
Seriously though the knock off gear break test videos are a lot of fun, like I love the canyon series but sometimes it hurts my unsophisticated sport climber brain
Someone should have purchased it from Dicks again to see what you get.
I wonder if, rather than a return swap, if someone working in the warehouse was the one doing the swapping.
What is most scary about this, is that if the ends weren't whipped and had regular "fake" black diamond rope ends with length, rope type etc written on them then this rope could have been used for climbing and whipping and omg...
Keeping with the subject of climbing on a static rope, maybe test one on the drop tower to see what the increase in forces would be?
I am curious about that! I don't actually know how bad a static rope is to whip on, I just know I'm really struggling to find volunteers for some human testing :)
@@HowNOT2 Maybe get one of the handicapped climbers, they're not going to get double paralyzed right? But in all seriousness, the dummy on the drop tower is probably a very good indication for the difference in severity, so you know whether it will just hurt like hell or break you in half (and then still please don't do any human testing).
Hey there! I hope you actually read this Ryan, My name is Joaquin, I am from Guadalajara in Mexico, there is a brand that is sold a lot over here through a huge store called Decathlon; the brand´s name is Simmond and as far as I have been able to find out they are a legit brand, but I would be super hyped if you could break test some of their gear. Since they are on the cheap end, not much people trust the the products they manufacture, I personally have a few pieces of Simmond gear but they sell everything from climbing shoes to climbing ROPES (which I do not necesarilly trust) and would love to know if the gear fear I have and I know a lot of other people share is out of place and if its not, then I can extend the info to a lot of people down here.... Some friends and I really enjoy and learn a lot with your content, We appreciate you lots bro!
They're a well known and old climbing company
Simmond is a brand which started in the early 1900s. It's now owned by decathlon (the world's largest outdoor retailer), and is totally fine and legit. Their kit will be safe and certified, but certainly on the cheaper end. Simond started as a blacksmithing company, and they probably don't have a rope factory of their own. This means their ropes will most likely be getting made by one of the major European rope manufacturers.
@@keeselane4397 Thanks a lot Keese!!
@@robertwhite721 I really appreciate the info! The fact they sell literally everything climbing related was a little odd to me, but now It makes more sense... thank you as well Robert!
I like people's responses on here, and keep in mind a few break tests in my lab is far far from certifying that gear is safe. It needs break tests from multiple batches over time and their quality control processes checked. I try to make my lab more about scenarios, different contexts and systems as a whole being tested. Which also need to be taken as a grain of salt as they are just a few tests.
That rope looks a lot like an arborist rope called bluemoon, especially with the sewn eyes and thimbles
When the camera came close to the rope and showed the red thimble and red on blue pattern I constantly recognize it. My friend bought exact same one after I told him "I may trust chinese carabiners that look proper, but I don't trust their ropes." 🙃😅
I buy by the 600 foot spool, to swap is serious. WOW. I personally know the person and family that sells me my rope. Good video! And advice!
This is crazy and a bit scary. The sewn ends sort of gave that one away. But it could also have been a model where that wasn't the case.
That being said, I wouldn't overstate the issue about leading on a static rope. It does make harder falls and I'm not recommanding it - but it does work and doesn't necessarily get you an injury in case of a fall. Had an episode where a friend of mine by mistakes brought a static rope to the crag and had a bunch of whippers on it. It thought my belayer just sucked, but turns out it wasn't her fault (she's a great belayer usually).
I would expand this to so many other industries: I just got a $30 bike stand painted blue to look like the $200 park tools stand I ordered. Probably a dirty return. I've heard a dozen stories about people getting fake or lower end power tools from big box stores. They repackage returns and sell them as new, and some stores will even blame you as the customer. Open everything in the store, at the register, and confirm you are getting that you are paying for. There are so many thieves and scammers these days it's ridiculous.
On another note: I would be SO curious to see you test their knock off crampons. I'm imagining things falling off when you kick into ice 😂
Which ones are you talking about? I can't find anything on the Dick's website except for microspikes.
Just an other valuable important vid. on this terrible topic. Thank you so much for your honest efforts man! By the way, love ya content!!! Please never stop uploading thinks like that and don´t be afraid to make uncofortable thinks like this clear... PEACE!!!
If anyone thinks that in a warehouse which dispatches orders to the retail clients you have only employees picking and packing (and dealing with returns) which are "experts" in the brand, well... I think you should rethink your vision how warehouses work and how online retail sells the products (when it comes to logistics)
You never skimp with your life, great vid
I was slightly worried with the title.
In the UK we don’t have “Dick’s Sporting Goods” but we do have a specialist climbing store in Bristol, called “Dick’s Climbing”. They are not related companies. “Dick’s Climbing” is a legit, independent store specialising in climbing equipment.
When you return something to ROI they sell it AS IS and give a pretty clear warning that they can't guarantee it's condition hence the 40-90% off.. Last time i was there a girl tried to return a NICEEE $400 rope but she wasn't a member and bought through a side vendor on their website.. I was standing a few feet away look at ropes and offered to scoop her much longer much nicer rope for ~$250.. Simultaneously found a new pair of climbing shoes in my size 90% on the return shelf for like $15
Dirty returns are real! Bought a pool from Wal Mart and got home to find out someone packaged the old junk pool they were replacing and returned it. The only reason they gave me my money back was because I was calling every customer I could over to the desk and telling them how they did my young son. Imagine having to shame Walmart into honoring the products they sell.
That's SOP for Walmart.
Hahaha. Those marketing images were hilarious. The guy bailing over the handrail..haha
Hmm... The way that Dick's Sporting Goods appears to have (failed to ) handled this, first in letting it happen, but even more after it had happened, suggests that they are working hard to live up to their name...
And I'm not referring to the "Sporting Goods-bit"...
I think a bigger problem is lurking under the surface. I came across a similar rope on Amazon. I emailed the seller asking for things like UIAA certifications. I wrote a review pointing out the deficiencies and how it is not a climbing rope and pointed it out to Amazon (who did nothing). I have also seen a display in a major retailer (Think the three letter co op store) that sells a lot of gear that had a rope in a window display getting UV struck...for weeks if not months. We have a lot of people working low paying retail jobs dealing with this gear that we need to trust our lives to.
Dicks seems like a place to get some shoes or a base ball bat. Most of their camping gear is bellow my standards and I have never seen climbing gear in one of their brick and mortar stores. Maybe they are authorized to sell BD headlamps, clothing or other non PPE stuff and someone at Dicks just started to add other BD stuff for sell not understanding the potential ramifications. Because this gear is so specialized with very important considerations I would purpose a standard to be met by retailers to be able to sell climbing and mountaineering gear. A standard about employee training on storage, handling gear, packaging for shipping, return processing and such. More work for the gear manufactures as they may need to have two levels of authorized retailer, one for clothes and another level for PPE. This would need to be a push from the all the manufactures for the interest of the safety of their customers.
People who buy that stuff on Amazon have no idea what certifications are, by UIAA or otherwise, and think nothing of trusting their lives to shady products. It's the wild west.
Hey guys, I'm new to Rappelling and right now I'm only in the reading and learning phase. I appreciate this site so much because of all the knowledge and experience you share to keep us safe. Where do you buy your ropes? This video gave me a scare, being so new and not knowing what companies or brands to purchase or look into. I would really appreciate any help with that type of information. Again, thank you for an awesome site filled with so much knowledge and experience. Take care and please be safe.
bulk bulk bulk. lots of companies are buying and recieving RANDOM products from RANDOM suppliers. I work for a retail store in Ohio and we get literal BULK pallets of off brand crap. and UPCs are not the same but they are considered by the store buyers to be the "same product". In my opinion, its compulsive store buyers and passive store regulations. I have talked to corporate employees and they dont care. Ive been told that the products are "close enough" and "we will sell it"
Something that I've heard of happening in the tech world, could be a similar thing going on here, is a back end employee switching out legit products for knock offs and then selling the legit ones on a place like FB marketplace or some other way and then moving on to the next store.
Bingo. The majority of retail theft happens on the employee side, not on the customer side.
I thought about that, but how much can you sell a BD rope for without packaging? And the aliexpress rope was $30ish. WIth only a $60 "profit", minus the FB discount you have to sell it for - is it worth all the hassle? I can see someone doing this for laptops or something more valuable.
@@HowNOT2 While there might not be much profit on a single rope if you could get access to enough of them and can keep for geting caught it might be worth the risk to someone who is desperate enough. What ever it was that happened In this situation, it is scary to think of how many people who are just getting into climbing might be on these ropes because they saw a reputable companies name on the product and didn't know any better.
@@HowNOT2 Maybe the thief didn't want to sell the rope. Maybe they just wanted a free BD rope? For a dick's employee, $60 is a lot money. That's almost a full days wages.
@@HowNOT2 $60 to some ppl is definitely worth it
hello can you gave me video link ay 8:46 for cheap carabiner testing
wow, so the name of the vendor speaks for itself
Fun fact, the way big box retailers do online orders is the same way Amazon does only on a smaller scale, they aggregate sellers.
Very important video. Great work.
It’s a really good job it had sewn ends, otherwise it would have been far less obvious.
In culture, this is called a, move.
I know of a couple of potholing deaths on polyprop. rope...long abseils overheating and polyprop melted in seconds.
Its good on boats.
The two most likely options:
1. "Dirty Return"
2. Staff stole the original and swapped it with the Ali rope. In all likelihood, it's happened more than once.
Other options don't really explain the packaging.
Would you be kind to test this rope please? I use it for hammocking and so far cannot complain. I believe I have 8mm rope which I use as a ridge line for longer spans between hook points (like trees being 10-15m apart etc). I looked for static rope and my one was labelled static but it would still nice to see how much can it take. I had a two large adults sitting in the hammock (approx 110kg + 100kg) and a couple "bouncing" (110kg + 65kg) heavily for a while and this rope performed great. Giving all angles and the load I believe this rope can take surprisingly good loads... Obviously I am not talking about reliability nor any form or certification ;)
Thanks :*
Thanks Ryan - Crazy.
The fact that is a one time event, then it must be a dirty return
This is an interesting story. If you're gonna steal a rope, why pick this relatively cheap one? I own one of these Black Diamond rope and the main reason to buy it was the already competitive price. Anyway, would love to see you test one of these Ali ropes, especially what happens to the climber when taking a big whipper on a static rope. Would also be nice to see a comparison with the real black diamond rope. Thank you for your video's Ryan!
Well I think I have an answer for that question. Why pick this relatively cheap rope? For the exact same reason that low value currency is counterfeit overwhelmingly more than high figure ones. It reduces the chance of people realizing the cheat and therefore being caught. If the blame is not on Dick's, I'm pretty sure that they don't bother themselves checking every single cheap product return.
Thank you 😊 💓
IMO, Someone got 2 ropes for Christmas, a $50 professional rope and a $90 recreational rope, and swapped the packaging so they kept the one they wanted and still got the bigger refund. Black Diamond's packaging is a PIA to remove specifically to prevent people doing this swap easily at scale in the supply chain, it was probably an actual climber.
Seen good/certified arborist ropes with sewn loops, just FYI
I’d be interested to cut the line open and use the ID ribbon inside to know exactly what you are dealing with…
You think there will even be an ID ribbon?
@@ashmaybe9634 If there isn’t one, that is an answer in itself.
lol iso certs are more employee treatment if i remember. its legit cert. but not for materiel, if it was for the product its food related. but thats the iso 14001 i think. it wasnt specifically my job we had the 9001 and 14001 and maybe like a 12 or 10 also. there were 3. this was in a winery though
ISO 9001 is a manufacturing quality standard - but it's generic to any industry, so they prove you have written quality procedures and follow them. Until recently, you could technically get ISO9001 certified if your official procedure was "we do not perform quality control, we do this by not calibrating anything or even looking at finished product" the only reason nobody did that is the documents are public so everyone would see.
The way it's supposed to work is they say "we test one part from every lot according to XYZ industry standard, if it fails we destroy the lot" or something like that (and an inspector can prove they really do that).
Made in Spain? Damn... never knew that BD ropes were made right here under my nose! I will have to investigate that a bit further....
100% someone swapped it out, that’s sad someone would return it looking unused and put someone else at risk.
ISO 9001 certification, if they have it, means they have written procedures for all aspects of their business. It does not mean those procedures are good.
Wish you would've gone to the same site she did and ordered the same product number and shown the unboxing all of the way through...
Honestly, I thought about it and didn't want to spend the money. If it was the right rope that came to me doesn't excuse what happened to them.
Please keep us updated once you hear anything new about this issue
Wow excellent video kudos
Lots of retail chains are now trying to compete in ecommerce by letting 3rd party sellers list items for sale. I've gotten so tired of having to check thru amazon listings for where some product will ship from and who is actually selling it... Nothing beats going to a local store and looking at the physical item before buying now. Ordering online is such a toss up :\
The gym I grew up climbing in use static ropes, and still use them to this day, the walls are only 22'-24' high, and all are TR setup. The falls are not bad at all, but it is a TR setup so,... you ain't falling far/whippin' . The stiffness of the ropes for tying knots, & belaying through devices sucks tho, & lowering kids you literally have to feed rope into your device.
I’ve never ever seen a store or website where climbing gear of any kind wasn’t prominently labeled NON-returnable. Same for guns and ammo.
Arborists commonly use sewn or spliced eyes.
there is another option that some employee saw the price difference between these fake ropes and the real ones and decided to swap the real for the fake in order to sell them at a profit. the fact that this happened to an online sale makes me think this might be the most likely option because people aren't always looking at it and then it is more likely to go unnoticed.
scary out there... i am not a climber, but if i were i would buy only from a climbing trusted place because i really don't want to cut corners on my life.
What is a good online store to buy rope?
That was the NICEST sweetest Exposed.
A quick look at Dick’s return policy indicates that load bearing gear is not excluded in any way (but you can’t return Yeezys). Seems clear this was a dirty return. And yea, returns on load bearing gear shouldn’t be allowed anywhere.
I would never buy climbing gear from Dicks. Black Diamond did not have to step in and help here and they did. I like that. I buy everything from REI.
Dude, I love that carabiner hat. Is that your merch?
Yup. www.hownot2swag.com
Most messed up person if they did do the dirty return. Indirectly risking someone's life. True a**hole.
Good for Black Diamond
I'll bet what happened is somone purchased the black diamond rope and switched it with a cheaper one then returned it.
How can u trust a rope that been shipped if dropping it is a big deal
Not surprising given company name
Never trust a store named Richard
Some people need to realize that the only thing you should ever buy from black diamond is their hardware. Spend the extra money on a Mammut and LaSports.
Show us your recipes tab! 😂👍
Their buyer and probably got a better deal from a new "vendor" and dont really care about what the product actually is. As long as they make their byers bonus, they do not care about if the product is legit at all. That happens in the hardware stores in the east anyway.
The lady said the packaging was intact. There's really only one explanation, & that's someone has pirated the packaging & somehow inserted themselves into Dick's supply chain. The OTHER explanation would be that a shipping employee went through the trouble of perfectly packaging a slightly less expensive rope so he could acquire a Black Diamond rope. It was done in bulk to make a big profit, not $50.
One last scenario: an insane person did this repackage job hoping to hurt someone.
Or somebody just glued the wrap back together, it's not that hard.
Cudos to Blackdiamond!
Interestingly many rope companies make rope that is uncertified and sells in the US and many other countries. Some even claim their rope is made in Canada ;-) but hey we know differently. So if we actually set standards and stick to them and even make the rope in house with real certifications and standards, we wouldn't encourage this behaviour.... This is just the tip of the iceberg with a lot more to come!
Dick’s is a publicly traded corporation so “maximizing shareholder value” is the only concern it can respond to. Also something interesting: “In February 2023, Dick’s Sporting Goods purchased Moosejaw from Walmart for an undisclosed amount.” So Moosejaw is Dick’s.
So a cardboard sleeve that can easily be slipped of the rope is not secure packaging.
How are you supposed to climb using a 35m rope? Even on the website it states the rope is 35 meters, that seems like a big tip off that something was wrong. I don't think black diamond makes any climbing ropes under 60 meters.
Black Diamond does make a 35m rope. It's for gym climbing and for many gyms, it is adequate length.
If i had the guess someone bought the real rop swapped the label and returned it.
That is a tremendous liability for the store.
Someone could be killed.
I found this rope on Amazon and I was wondering if you would like to test it it looks to be a pretty decent rope.Rock-N-Rescue Heat Resistant Personal Escape Rope - 50 Feet Long, 8mm, NFPA 1983, RNR Poseidon Safe Tech, Firefighting and Rescue
Why do you want such a rope, are you a firefighter?
Saddle hunting and repelling out of trees
This is why we need real stores.
If it is a dirty return whoever did it should count themselves lucky they don’t have a persons death on their conscious
Damn now you created some gear fear in me :(
AliExpress is one thing but Amazon has this shit for sale too. A massive American company like them and Dick's need to be held responsible for selling dangerous gear. When I started climbing I bought one of those cheap Amazon ropes that are advertised for climbing but realized once it arrived that it was probably not a good idea to use. How many beginners aren't going to have that intuition.
I think you should have bought the same rope again from Dick's. Would you get another counterfeit?
Good on Black Diamond for replacing the rope. I expect they will issue an explanation soon, along with a guide to avoid counterfeits.
iso 9001 is no quality control it is quality management. doesnt mean anything really.
Craziness!!