Hey guys, a couple notes: 1. So there’re a couple popular ways to make the Yunnan Dai style smashed cucumber. The one we made seven years ago was a specific version from a Dai restaurant in Kunming, which is now unfortunately closed. The owner was from Mengliang county in Pu’er city, so it’s a bit heavy on the herbs just like many local dishes there. While this version is a bit closer to what’s around Dehong in southwest Yunnan, where people like to add toasted chili flakes (煳辣子) and toasted peanuts and sesame seeds. And there’s some other version that’d add chili oil to it, which we think has Sichuan influence. But they’re all very good of course. With this base, you can also mix it with other things, we did a fridge clear out with this mix but with meat balls, mushrooms, and tofu, it’s great. Just remember to up the seasonings accordingly if you’re adding more ingredients to the mix. 2. In Yunnan, this kind of Dai flavored liangban cold dishes are not always pounded in a mortar, sometimes it’s just a simple mix, so feel free to go either route. 3. From our experience, MSG from different brands may taste slightly different. We like to use a couple Chinese brands, and abroad we always like to stick to Ajinomoto. When using MSG, don’t go too crazy, start with 1/8 tsp for about 300g-500g of ingredients, and find the level that you like the most. Sometime we see certain meme food recipes going for 1 tsp or even more, which in our opinion can be overpowering. But just any other seasonings, MSG should be used in moderation, it's all about balancing and adjusting flavors. 4. About my “MSG diet”, it’s a joke, kind of. So I (Steph) did lost some weight over the years (as you can see in the old clip, I was rounder before). Since doing the channel, we started to learn, explore, and apply different ways to season our food. And over the years, using the proper seasoning has helped us made our food tastier. And when our food tastes good, magically my craving for junk food and high calories baked goods (one of my biggest weakness) become lower and lower overtime. I started to be able to appreciate food more and feel very satisfied after an appropriate amount of eating. We still eat junk food of course because they have their special appeal. But when your “healthy food” is also tasty, eating junk food from time to time is not a problem at all, and you don’t even have to bear that mental burden of thinking “I’m a shitty person for putting junk in my body”. You can actually enjoy it. Anyway, all I’m saying here is that, eat more vegetables, use proper seasoning to make your food tasty, enjoy a healthy MSG life😊 5. In the talk in the final bit, the Cantonese term for “non-Cantonese” is 外江 (ngoi gong), meaning “outside rivers or other rivers”. It’s generally used to describe people that’s not from the Pearl River Delta, or sometimes being used to describe anyone that’s non-local. 6. Chen Mong Yen (陈梦因) is considered to be the first ever food critic in Hong Kong media. He had a column in Hong Kong’s Sing Tao Daily, which had been a very influential column about Cantonese food. What we showed in the video is a reprint of a collection first published in 1951 of his daily talks from the column. In the video, we only cited the kind of discriminatory comments on MSG from his writing, he was indeed a great food critic nonetheless. There’s so much valuable and first-hand information about food from not only Guangdong but also other parts of China. And you can find many lost or obscure dishes mentioned in his articles. So please don’t judge him just by these couple quotes, he was bonded by his time, like we all do. He’s still one of my all-time-favorite food writers though our opinions may differ on certain topics. 7. And the hate against MSG in the Cantonese world (and in some other parts in China) in fact still has more nuance and other aspects that we didn’t cover in this video, but that’s an whole other topic, which we hope to talk about more in the future. 8. And who’s the little guy in the back? Well, it’s a sassy little Anarchist Penguin that sneers at the presumption of human hierarchy. And that’s it for now, enjoy MSG!
I completely agree with the idea that making healthy food taste good helps curb cravings for junky food. I didn't work a lot of fresh vegetables into my usual diet until I started getting into things like quick pickles, marinated vegis, and some other more specific dishes I had seen here on youtube (thanks for all the great ideas!)
@@ChineseCookingDemystified So even though other Chinese people dislike MSG, you decided not to go into that "whole other topic", simply electing to perpetuate the "laowai are racist when they don't like MSG" narrative. Got it. 👍
@@ChineseCookingDemystified To be fair, you did tell people like @SimpleFluorescence, people who have trouble holding difficult ideas in their head, not to watch the last part of the video. XD
@@SimpleFluorescence Please reread note 7. Also at around the 1-minute mark, Steph explicitly says they (folks like us consuming food/cooking-related content in Western spaces, aka laowai) are not all racist. I'm baffled at how you reached the conclusion you did, but I do hope you see this comment and take some time to self-reflect.
I'm sorry, I had to say it. I read out your comment in the voice of the character in your avatar. It was hilarious! "I am CREEEDENCE Leonore Gielgood" "Aaahhh! Think about the cholesterol! Think about... THE TOXINS...!"
Sometimes watching their stuff makes me emotional hahaah, it's just so clear how much passion they have for food and teaching and they do such a great, thoughtful job of it. High up among my favorite TH-camrs for sure.
As a fellow who learned to speak, read, and write Chinese 58 years ago; and who has worked, travelled and enjoyed every minute of the 12 years I did so, I adore you two and offer my sincere thanks for your efforts! I try to savor your every video. 🤠 Blessings from Texas!
Love you guys, as always. Thank you for bringing some logic to this whole MSG situation and reminding people that you don't get bonus points for making vegetables cause suffering to your taste buds.
This was so informative. I didn’t even know that the person who wrote the original letter was Cantonese. It’s crazy how far one person put Asian food behind because of their own classism
Maybe. There's apparently some controversy about who wrote the letter and why. On the one hand there was an American surgeon who claimed to have written it as an obvious joke about drinking too much and overeating (he said the name should've been a clear giveaway- Robert Ho Man Kwok= Robert Human Crock (of Sh__), doctor at a made up research lab) that was blown way out of proportion by people who didn't get the joke. On the other there's a claim by a Michigan family that their father was a doctor and researcher actually named Ho Man Kwok and that he actually did write the letter as well as having worked at the supposedly fictitious lab. It's a very weird story either way.
He wasn't. Decades later, an american physician named Dr. Howard Steel identified himself as the author of the 1968 article. He had, as was common at the time, written the letter as a joke. The pseudonym is a play on words: Ho Ma Kwok sounds very similar to common insult at the the time - human crock of sh**. Of course, there is no way to verify the story, but there is also no record of any Dr. Ho Man Kwok in any other medical publication, society or similar.
Thank you. This is a healthy way of arguing why MSG can and should be part of our meals. This is only tangentially related to what you said but increasingly people tend to oscillate between two extremes-either they divorce pleasure from food and look at food only as a source of nutrition, or they live in mortifying guilt of deriving pleasure from food. This way of thinking is now seeping into many young people even in countries with strong culinary traditions such as India (I can't say about China). Neither of those states are healthy or sustainable. A balanced meal and a varied diet is all anyone needs. No meal, no matter how optimised for nutrition, is healthy (for your body or your mind) if that is all you eat everyday. Establishing a system of eating rather than looking at each individual ingredient or meal is what we need.
Another fantastic video; I especially really enjoy the historical deep dives and frank, unfiltered takes from both Chris and Steph. Awesome to hear these different perspectives with informed backgrounds.
chicken powder is the diluted MSG that makes it easier to portion out. MSG is a lot more potent than salt and it is hard to control how much you add at home, chicken powder thin it out in a way that makes it similar to using salt
@@harrytsang1501I would disagree personally that msg is more potent than salt. I feel as though I can use a lot of msg before it's overbearing. With salt it goes from good to inedible real fast in a way I've never felt with msg.
Chicken powder or Knorr/Maggie chicken bouillon powder is diluted msg with other unnecessary ingredients. Most of the chicken powder uses less quality msg along with anti caking agents , artificial flavours , artificial colours , preservatives and most importantly salt ! . Learning to use the MSG salts is much better than using a mystery powder made my multi national conglomerates with shady backgrounds and have the worst record for selling dogsh*t
Chicken powder usually has Disodium 5 Nucleotides in it - that enhances the Glutamates in MSG. That and yeast and other protein extracts that give it an extra depth from just MSG and salt and sugar. Another seven years for that video?
@@EmsThaBreaks441 huh, that's cool! I'll check that out! I sometimes use it instead, but often I just use msg so I don't bring in a bunch of other flavors that might clash. I find straight msg easier to control in that way.
If you have an asian supermarket near you, you'll find Ajinomoto brands there that will probably be a lot cheaper than what's at walmart as "flavor enchancer"
Thank you Steph and Chris for always taking such care and reflexivity with your videos. Perhaps your audience is “niche” (and perhaps being in that niche gives me a certain sense of self satisfaction!) but I’m constantly impressed by your willingness to bring your viewers along as you examine “heated” topics and to land in a place of nuance and complexity. As a western sinophile there’s really nothing better than your blend of regional culinary history, food science and deep experiential knowledge of navigating the China/West interface. A channel that supremely lives up to its name. Love your work ❤
I'm quite picky about food channels and blogs - i always try to make sure i learn about things in depth, with context and mostly from people with actual passion. discovering our channel has been a joy, im vegan so clearly for most things i use more what i learn then adhere to step by step recipe, but im just always astonished by the work you to do and put forward. the research, the way you teach, your approach. not only was i never let down by a video, but i really am just amazed every time by each new video and this one was no different. ty for this, ty for the recipe, ty for putting it out.
Great video as always! I really love this turn you guys have taken lately where the videos are equal parts history, cooking, and politics/philosophy. Good shit!
Do you guys happen to know the "Känguru Chroniken" ? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kangaroo_Chronicles it's been translated into a lot of languages, chapeau to the translators! - tough stuff to get those jokes across. So any fans of the Känguru will gasp at an anarchist penguin - bcs in the book, the PENGUIN is the antagonist of the Kangaroo. The Kangaroo is communist and claims to have been brought up by the Viet-Cong, it is - if anything - also pretty anarchist. The penguin is a capitalist, conformist, system soldier. So I like what you do for penguins here, showing that their species is not a monolithic block, but that also penguins have free thought and can chose to be anything they want. Including an anarchist. Just as Kängurus.
Your channel is the perfect mixture of cooking lesson. Thank you for bringing some logic to this whole MSG situation and reminding people that you don't get bonus points for making vegetables cause suffering to your taste buds.
A personal opinion on using MSG "at the right time": Disclaimer: White guy from Sydney here, who learned Chinese cooking from my mother, a white lady who lived in Darwin for a few years, amongst Chinese neighbours (likely Cantonese, some Nonya). She took lessons from her Cantonese neighbour (back in the 1970s). Me, I'm in my late 40s. Been driving a wok, and using MSG, since I was maybe 10 years old. I have heard, and I don't remember where, (I think it was a source I trusted, could have been Malaysian?), that MSG should be used *sparingly*, and only in particular dishes. The reason is that MSG is a flavour *enhancer*. As such, it can "over-season" some very subtle dishes. I sometimes do shojin ryori/Japanese "monastic" cooking myself, and the idea is you use very subtle flavours. Say you go on a fast, or go "raw vegan" for a few days, or are ill and can only eat bland foods for a few days. Your palate will "reset", and your sense of taste will be stronger. My favourite dish during such a period (say, a long weekend meditation/monastic food), is simple zucchini slices. Take one zucchini, and cut lengthwise into (~quarter inch) strips. It tastes like this: - Simple steamed - "quite nice, it tastes like zucchini". - Grilled in a grill pan, a few char marks, no oil, "Ooooh, this is very nice. I like that". - Grilled in a grill pan... sprinkled with a little salt, "WOW! This is delicious! Where have you been all my life!" Then I go back to my regular ways. And my palate adjusts back to "normal everyday eating". I might grill the zucchini, add some salt, pepper, MSG, a little extra virgin olive oil, maybe a little garlic, or a tiny amount of sugar, and think "Meh, this is a pretty good side dish. Not bad. Bring on the chilli pork!" My point is that as a flavour "enhancer" you get "used to it". MSG stops making food taste "better", but, (to yourself), it makes food tastes "normal". In fact, food without MSG tastes "blander", like there's something missing. So, you have to put MSG in "everything" you cook. (Not to slander the more highly educated American friends in your audience, but it's a similar perception by foreigners that "Americans put sugar in EVERYTHING! Even bread, and french fries!") So the advice was "save MSG (and chicken powder) for dishes where it really enhances things. Omit it when it doesn't." The example that I remember was: - Char Kway Teow - LOAD IT UP FULL OF MSG! It should taste like a punch to the face! - Simple green vegetables - don't use MSG or chicken powder. Maybe use a little garlic if you want. "The vegetables should taste like vegetables". Anyway, that's my two cents. For the record, even though I live alone, I go through quite a lot of MSG. I buy it in half-kilo bags (~one pound), and go through a couple of bags per year. And I use it in most savoury "western" dishes as well. Casseroles, Mexican beans, Italian foods etc. About the only thing I don't put it in are Japanese dishes, where I boil up kombu/kelp to extract the MSG. I do admit that I store my MSG in a container labelled "Organic Crystalline Kelp Extract", so that I don't need to have "the debate" with guests :) Outstanding video as always. Would love to see some Yunnan dishes!
It's fine in Japanese too, in dashi, I'd just go light on it. But yeah, I mean, that's where Ajinomoto is from anyway haha. Most commercial instant dashi has some MSG in it unless it's 無添加
This was quite similar to our opinion in the beginning of the channel. If you dig up the old Reddit post on “how to actually use MSG” (connected to the MSG noodles recipe), we express tangential? ideas. I think it’s obviously true that your tastes can build up tolerance. I guess it’s a normative question - does it *matter*? Over the years, I’ve started becoming more sensitive to sweet and sour, and less to spicy and umami. I’m sometimes a little shocked to look at our old recipes and see how much sugar tasted ‘balanced’ to me at the time. These things ebb and flow with the years. Recently, I’ve found myself wanted to go a little lighter on the additives that use I+G. Maybe it’ll be a trend, maybe it won’t. Thus, ‘season to taste’ :)
@@ChineseCookingDemystified btw, it doesn't only ebb and flow, but change with age! My dad is now experiencing this (he's 70ish) and is really struggling...but aging was never for sissies 😕 Is it Ang Lee's "Eat, Drink, Man, Woman" that also touches on the subject?
@@ChineseCookingDemystified That's true with all strong flavours, though. Five years ago, my tolerance for spicy was far, far lower than it is now. Then I started cooking Thai and Sichuan dishes. Now I put sriracha sauce on my breakfast. And @charlotte.b.2123 it's also true about age. Kids love sweet things but hate bitter things. Adults grow out of their sweet tooth (to a certain degree) and start enjoying more complex flavours. Old people often need stronger flavours to enjoy their food because taste can deteriorate with old age just like any of the other senses.
I've a feeling recently there's been a transition from "Did you know MSG is bad" being fashionable, to now "Did you know 'MSG bad' was a myth and it's actually great?" being more fashionable.
I feel like this is still only confined to people who have an interest in food science. The average person on the street is still going to think it's bad because tons of food labels proudly proclaim 'no MSG'. By way of sheer osmosis, that's going to permeate through the public consciousness in a way that niche TH-cam videos just can't.
Something ironic about watching a video about the contribution of classism in China to anti MSG ideas, specific how MSG was negatively associated with lower classes, then calling MSG the “poor man’s” version of something else lol
@@1TieDye1 MSG IS cheaper than parmesan, Parmigiano Reggiano, pecorino, gouda, and the other grating types. Almost six dollars for a pound of Ajinomoto, whereas even the sawdust, pre-grated "parmesan" stuff is typically more expensive-- by two dollars. Given that pure MSG packs a much bigger punch than cheese for such small amounts (versus shredding through lbs of hard cheese), MSG is the economical choice.
My (Polish immgrant) family have been gleefully using MSG in everything for at least 5 decades - in the form of Maggi liquid seasoning, or Kucharek stock powder. I maintain it's the secret ingredient in my gran's pasta sauce. Recently, my Dad got drawn into the 'MSG is terrible' camp, based on the usual articles online, and were concerned about it being in Chinese recipes. I laughed heartily, and pointed out the Maggi on the counter-top, and his abiding love of tomatoes (one of the richest plant sources of MSG)
Funny thing is that while I generally don't use straight-up MSG in my pasta or pizza sauces, I very often use Red Boat fish sauce, and the fermentation of the anchovies give you a liquid rich in three flavor potentiators: glutamates, salt, and inosinates. I occasionally add shrimp paste though, and that specifically lists MSG as an ingredient. Like all seasoning, it's the balance that matters.
Well, for what it's worth, about a year in watching your videos, I added MSG to my cupboard. I trusted you guys, and while it's still not second nature to grab for the jar, I've used it many times to improve my dishes. Twenty years ago I wouldn't have believed that, but your explanations and arguments simply worked.
Learning to use MSG (sorry, "all natural seaweed crystals") was one of the most valuable lessons I've learned from this channel. Keep up the good work.
I am not exaggerating, i think this is absolutely the best channel on youtube. Really appreciated the dialectial marerial analysis of the MSG bad argument
I just wanted to stop by and say thank you for this very informative and enlightening episode. My Asian parents have drilled it in me since childhood the 'MSG IS BAD FOR YOU' mindset. And this mentality probably came from my extended paternal and maternal sides strangely. Nobody ever questioned the rationale/logic of it. It just was something that was passed down from generation to generation. Don't get me wrong, it's not like we as an extended Asian family were actively preaching the whole 'MSG bad' idea. It was one of those strange little things that great grandma said, which eventually grandma said in passing which ultimately was gleaned from mother. Therefore, today's episode is literal food for thought - to always remember (for me, at least) to mentally question why something is rather than just accepting it as fact. 😀
reading through all the comments, I was wondering if 'msg is bad for you' is a bit like 'salt is bad for you' or 'sugar is bad for you' - it's a message boiled down to a very, very short thus crude level. Maybe it was meant as a 'don't overdo salt bcs starting from a certain amount, if it is way more than your metabolism needs, it'll start being bad for you' ?
My Dad was always very opposed to MSG. I don't know why and he wasn't the only one. I think there was this wave of anti MSG propaganda in the 80s in China maybe, in the south. My Grandma complained that she couldn't even use a little MSG when she stayed with us because his son wouldn't allow it in the house. Then again, is MSG less common in Cantonese cooking compared to in the north though?
Such an amazing young lady you explain things so simply so every one can decide for them self love your channel and your recipes thank you for being you ❤
Fantastic video. In the first part I think you've approached the issue in a way that will make sense to a lot of people struggling to pick a side on this issue. I love cooking fresh food, and I love adding a little MSG.
Thank you for keeping up the great channel... I always love your videos. Re: MSG... my mother insisted that even a tiny amount of MSG would give her a headache, and my father insists that it "sets his teeth on edge". I just don't tell them it's there... if you trust the chef making it, then trust that they know when to stop adding it. :)
as a bio student, i'm gonna say that food tastes umani (including MSG) because they contain glutamate, an amino acids widely exist in the world that can be detected by human taste bud. A Japanese scientist isolate it from see weed soup and that is where the word umami comes from. oyster sauces, soy bean sauce, and Haichang（海肠) powder, which are all used to bring up the taste of umami, are rich in glutamates. and MSG is monosodium glutamate, actually a fermented products of corn, not artificially synthesized. So I guess the only bad thing about MSG is that it contains sodium, which might cause people to feel thirsty and might increase the risk of hypertension. There is another reason for hatred towards MSG, the competition between capitals. a foreign company wanted to enter the Chinese market of MSG, so they started a massive campaign claiming how unhealthy MSG is and people should choose their "natural chicken powder", which is still MSG. As a result, Chinese people become so resistant to MSG, but fine with chicken powder, and the domestic MSG industries were almost destroyed. PS I really agree with your discussion about the root of MSG hatred. I agree how cantonese culture claims its economical & cultural superiority by cooking in the most "authentic and natural" way with "the best" ingredients to get the "organic" umami. Guangdong has been the wealthiest place historically, that causes strong cultural influence and its classism towards taste and food culture. As a big fan of Sichuan dish, I'm very sad to hear them say spicy food is invented out of poverty, how spices and condiments are used to cover the bad taste of inferior ingredients and cantonese food is the only decent food in the world
Your video is a very interesting exposition of the complex, multiple-crossroads-intersections of food, politics, culture, and geography. VERY well done! I have no strong feelings about MSG one way or the other. Late in life, now I use it occasionally in my cooking, only because I was very slow to add it to my pantry. I don't know why. I'm sure I've been eating it most of my life in other places though. In my own cooking, I notice an ENORMOUS difference and improvement in the flavor and umami component whenever I use even small amounts of it in a very simple "instant pot" combination of white beans and raw ("brown") rice, pressure-cooked only with water. I think almost anybody would prefer it over the exact same very-simple recipe cooked without it. So I also use it now for more complex recipes too. I've NEVER experience ANY adverse health effects I could attribute to using MSG. Your video is a great, and very interesting service to those of us who are interested in food. (Is there anybody who isn't?)
I myself try to limit the amount of very processed foods (Doritos etc) that often contain more MSG than what you’d get in just, well, normally cooked and seasoned food. This channel is a great help for me, since you show really cool and interesting flavour combinations and ingredients I’d never have heard of otherwise.
Great talk! I don't know about "northern" cuisines, but Sichuan (which is a subbranch of the Northern tradition even though the province is often categorized as "South" West geographically) cuisine surely used MSG well into 90s and beyond. A cooking school textbook published in 1987 discusses Gaotang (高汤, akin to soup stock I suppose) in the context of MSG usage. (It encourages flavoring more with Gaotang and less MSG, but never shies away from it.) Meanwhile, Sichuan has the same widespread folklore that restaurants add MSG to make customers feel thirsty so they can sell more drinks, which bear higher margin. There may be a kernel of truth in this lore. MSG does tame the sting of salt, thus allowing more salt content in the food before it tastes excessive.
Genuinely fascinating. You guys are so good at covering these contentious subjects (like your wet markets and gutter oil vids). Love the humour, too. 🙂
I happily use soy sauce so never subscribed to the "MSG is bad" thing. However, I do know that like anything high in sodium, MSG makes my blood pressure spike so use it sparingly. Having said that, the amount of MSG in soy is a bit obscure so using powdered MSG would absolutely make it easier to control the sodium. Whatever works for you, I guess. Thanks for bringing the magic of Chinese home cooking to us :)
It took decades before my mom found out, from me, that the secret to her Thanksgiving gravy was literally MSG. "Accent" was just always what we added, and I finally pointed it out to her, we kinda just never told the family so no one got weird about it. Now I put MSG on my scrambled eggs because it's just good.
As a Filipino chef that's been taught by Europeans, I used to be ashamed of MSG and scoff at the idea of using it. My logic was, I can achieve the same flavors naturally. Good thing Uncle Roger became viral. Now, I am proud that I use MSG for my home cooking. And being Filipino, I have 4 sources of MSG (pure MSG, Magic Sarap, chicken powder and liquid seasoning) that's not tomato, fish paste, fish sauce and soy sauce. MSG! Fuiyoh!!!
There is a different perspective that I would like to bring to the table as someone who prefers to avoid cooking with processed sugar. It would be interesting for you to cover Natural MSG sources/"Alternatives" in Chinese Food in General. Similar to how Japan has Kombu or Italy has Parmigiano Reggiano
A very interesting topic, and personally very well timed! I've been following your channel for a few years now and had come to the understanding that the "MSG phobia" was a western thing and that MSG was as ordinary and uncontroversial in China as salt pr sugar. Until I talked about using MSG with my co-worker with a Chinese (Shanghainese) background just a few weeks ago. They were surprised that I use it and told that their parents never use it and say it's "cheating", mirroring exactly the sentiment you described in your video.
That Dai cucumber recipe is one of my absolute favourites over the years, I make it perhaps once a week. I can’t believe it’s been seven years already!
Real food has nutrients, processed food is devoid of nutrients to mitigate spoilage and increase shelf life. MSG is awesome. Put MSG on real food and enjoy! Thank you guys! Always love your videos.
4:22 About that, a German research group won an Ig Nobel prize this year for research that shows that placebo effects are more effective when they have a negative side effect. The strongest effect comes when the side effect is painful (looking at you, homeopathy), but you can reasonably say that loonies can actually benefit slightly from their healthy food tasting bad, but who honestly wants to live like that.
Celery juice drinkers will tell you till their throats are dry that the reason you know the juice works is the vile taste. There is this thinking of if something is good for you it will taste bad and that good tasting foods are bad for you innately. I don’t really know the origins of this thinking but I will blame puritans because it seems like something they would argue for. You have to torture and restrict yourself to be worthy of salvation and all that.
where is homeopathie painful though? it's insipid nothingness xD as for a possibly boosted placebo effect: i reckon that might be blown out the window by the positive effects of eating good food. plus, the nutrients and fibre one gets from veggies aren't exactly a form of placebo-effect, so their impact can't be directly boosted like that (maybe the effects further down the line can though, i admit)
Love this! Been using MSG for years and couldn't imagine not using it - it would be like trying to make food without salt or sugar. I could, but it would be bland for no reason!
I do think it's a little important to clarify 'ultra-processed' foods when discussing junk food and health in food. But that is such an aside from the great video. Thanks for the info!
That was powerful and brave. I had no idea where Ho Man Kwok was coming from and never would have unless someone like you, who can read Cantonese and knows the food history of the area explained it.
interesting topic. informative and gives me a culinary license so I do not have to worry so much when my bag of m.s.g is pulled out from my spice cabinet.
Love how this channel strives to be unbiased in its commentary and work through issues with logic. I consider myself part of the anti-msg camp however and the reasoning is simple. MSG is kind of like a cheat code. It is really just scientifically extracted umami and lowers the bar to produce " good tasting food", which means your brain is pre-programed to express "yum" when you consume msg. For a cuisine like cantonese, that emphasizes the taste of the natural ingredients, which in the right combination, and cooking methodology applied, produce brilliant flavors, using msg removes the art behind it and if you are really discerning, you will start to notice all dishes using msg have hints of a similar taste. Of course, it is just an ingredient and can be used in varying quantities to produce amazing food coupled with the skill of the chef, but understand there are reasons why esteemed cantonese chefs (some from HK lol) eschew the use of MSG that is not just because of racism or 'holier than thou'
As a vegetarian I add it to many dishes that lack for instance stock or other umami enhancers. I've noticed a teaspoon already goes a long way and I tend to reduce the amount of salt I add to the dish to compensate. If you just consider it as a type of salt I don't see all the hubbub.
You guys are the cultural influence I didn’t have growing up BBC. I still want to fulfil my childhood dreams and make ur mantou but I’m having trouble locating the yeast. At least you’ve armed me with the knowledge now
I enjoy seeing more light shed to any audience about the history of MSG. I personally love the stuff but at the end of the day do what is right to you, we can still be friends!
This has to be my favorite video that you guys ever made. Loved the analysis of the philosophical differences between the pro and anti MSG crowd and its consequences. Also loved the deep dive into the history of anti-MSG sentiment and tracing it back to its Chinese origins. Would not mind at all if future videos included more or even was exclusively historical (and sociological?) content.
I’ve been using Accent (pure MSG on savory dishes for 40 years, often having to hide on top cabinet shelves from better - 1/2 who feared it but loved the food. It’s like mirin in that it’s hard to point out but you know it if it isn’t there.
I'm making a pork roast tonight, and the cucumber salad sounds like a great addition to go with it. Thanks for sharing, and the discussion about MSG and why it is stigmatized.
You've helped me enjoy cooking with msg. I find it hilarious that some people I know whine about how Chinese food gives them a headache because of "all that msg" while munching on nacho flavored doritos with "all that msg".😂
salt is a flavor enhancer, too. Man I love MSG and if I die like 30 minutes earlier than I would have otherwise, but lived a life with delicious MSG as the tradeoff, well... I am using MSG whenever I want and I enjoy its magical powers.
So interesting to see this after I’ve been getting into lots of msg fights online after the recently viral tiktok cucumber salad that uses msg has set off the anti-msg delusional folks. This level of depth and nuance on the subject is far more than I knew and so critical to an informed perspective!
You see the same class thing in Italy with garlic, poor agricultural people use it in their cooking for flavour, and you see a lot of snobbery by the rich about it, even though it’s very good for you and also imparts a nice flavour
Love this channel! I'm so proud of you all, and still so disappointed to see "No MSG" displayed on labels for common spice mixtures found in the US. It's getting better (as in, I think many Americans aren't actively avoiding MSG) but the average American still doesn't understand what an incredible flavor enhancer MSG can be.
Glad to have the section on your take where the origins of the MSG scare comes from. I've definitely always thought too many my old Cantonese aunties are anti-MSG for the problem to be a purely western one. In fact an uncle last time I was in Hong Kong basically verbatim told me there was no point in looking for somewhere to eat some lanzhou pulled noodles because it's "all just MSG soup" lol
Ignorance is a terrible thing. The level of ignorance on the subject of foods is amazingly high. Used correctly MSG can help to lower the overall level of salt in a dish. In the US damm near everything has MSG but the folks who bitch about MSG choose to be ignorant of the subject. You folks have a great channel. Keep up the great work.
So proud of you for coming out and saying this. It's definitely a huge myth in the cooking world that at best is misinformed and at worst is flat out prejudice disguised... That being said, some people may experience headaches with high loads of MSG in foods (but they may also get this from sulfites or from high sodium loads), as all these things have an impact on our vascular system. Glutamate specifically is an excitatory neurotransmitter and so this is a thought about how it might be implicated. There's also some basic science level lab research that suggests that it might feed already active cancer. (Note that I'm NOT saying it's a carcinogen, or cancer causing substance) Your videos are awesome. From the cooking to the culture stuff. Your "gutter oil" video helped me kindly correct some friends, multiple times, and it was both well taken by them and mind opening. Beautiful work.
Growing up in Hong Kong and the US, it's always frustrated me that we were such a classist society. Like I could understand racism in the US; it made sense to me, a kid, that people would hate people who looked different than them. It's evil, for sure, but I always felt that it's equally so if not more evil to discriminate against people who practically looked the same as you but spoke a little differently and ate slightly different foods and came from a county a couple hours train ride north. As much as I'm glad that y'all are making a video (again) pointing out how MSG is actually a good thing I'm happier that someone is finally pointing out that Cantonese classism exists and how it influenced culinary and social history in the US. (Related: If you ever get a chance to look into the clash between established Cantonese immigrants and newcomers from Fujian in the NYC Chinese / restaurant community in the 80s and 90s it's quite fascinating.)
On my first visit to NYC in 2007, a good (Cantonese) Chinese American friend of mine gave me the full tour of Manhattan, walking through all the important neighborhoods. As the sun set we had reached Chinatown. "Let's go visit my grandma", she said, "she lives just down here". As we got closer, my friend pointed down a side street, "Down there is where all the Fujianese live. We don't talk to them"!
It is important to understand that classism (Cantonese or otherwise) starts with simple differences. The type of classism just depends on the attributes that are being differentiated. Whether that be money, locale, or language or something else. Given that China itself is in many ways more like if Europe were one big country with hundreds of languages and economic stratifications. There are inevitable linguistics and economic differences intrinsic to any large population. Even in Guangdong, there are dozens of dialects that are mutually unintelligible, and these dialects are often conflated to infer economic status. So, while classism may at first seem odd (or even evil), it is more important to understand that it is a certainty given the diversity of the country and province. It only seems odd since national efforts promote homogeneity of culture and language in China.
@@Obscurai I live in one of the smallest countries in the world (Belgium) and even here we have a similar situation. There's the language/culture/economical divide between Flanders and Wallonia and the German-speaking population, and within Flanders there's outrageous classism between the provinces and political and ideological gaps you wouldn't think possible in cities that are literally bordering each other, there's heavy classism around dialects and even accents, it would take days to even explain it all. And this is all happening in a country it takes about five hours to drive through length-wise. I can only imagine how much more complex it gets in a country as vast and ancient as China. Sometimes it's disheartening to see how small of a difference people need to default to tribalism. It's all understandable if you know the background, but it's still sad to see sometimes.
MSG has a bad name in the UK, but that's because of the low quality foods it appeared in such as Pot Noodle as a flavour enhancer. It is a flavour enhancer just like salt, add it into a quality dish and you boost the flavour, just like salt. I used to be deadly against it (I knew nothing of its Oriental background) because it only appeared in low quality food, it was actually seeing a young Chinese Chef in the UK (I can't remember if it was TV or TH-cam) doing a piece on it. He started in the against camp, did a quick history on it, then made a pumpkin soup with and without and did a taste test. MSG lifted the soup above the other and made a much richer taste. So I've been aware that it is a valid condiment which is overused by low quality food processers to give bland food a better taste and used sparingly by good cooks to enhance good quality dishes.
As a white American, I grew up in an era where MSG was just widely "understood" to be bad and a number of even Asian restaurants would advertise that they did not use it in their cooking. I feel both a little guilt and a little anger, as it seems that what I was eating not only wasn't authentic, even in places that claimed to be, but also that racist/classist notions were passed down unchallenged. Thanks for making this video and in defending an ingredient. Others on line have as well (Uncle Roger comes immediately to mind), and I'm glad the slander is being eliminated
I'm Bulgarian, I cook mostly Balkan or Mediterranean food and I love to put some MSG in. My friends and family like it a lot when I do, even if it remains my little secret.
10:04 [A Map of The Valid]. As someone living in Shanghai, I can attest to the validity of this 'Valid' map, except we exclude Beijing, but we might include Fujian.
my mom used msg in her cooking, but it was just a pinch. I love doritos, even though they are bad for you :) I use msg in my cooking, but I don't add a lot. Just a little bit to reduce the amount of salt I use in my cooking
As a Dai, I believe the Dai cuisine is unique on its own, disimilar from Thai Yum. For sourness in Dai salad, we use three types. Dai style tomato sauce, rice vinevgar, or juice from fermented mustard green. To balance out the sourness with sweetness, we rarely use sugar. We use palm sugar sauce or sugar cane sauce. We use sugar cane or palm sugar and cook them in low heat until it is thick. The color and texture will be similar to dark soy sauce but it is sweet and a bit smokey. It gaves the Dai salad that deep and smokey sweetness. We top the salad with cilantro or sawtooth coriander.
Was Steph on a China Southern flight from guangzhou to nanjing a couple of days ago by any chance? Randomly walked past someone who I could have sworn was her getting out of the plane.
Hey guys, a couple notes:
1. So there’re a couple popular ways to make the Yunnan Dai style smashed cucumber. The one we made seven years ago was a specific version from a Dai restaurant in Kunming, which is now unfortunately closed. The owner was from Mengliang county in Pu’er city, so it’s a bit heavy on the herbs just like many local dishes there.
While this version is a bit closer to what’s around Dehong in southwest Yunnan, where people like to add toasted chili flakes (煳辣子) and toasted peanuts and sesame seeds. And there’s some other version that’d add chili oil to it, which we think has Sichuan influence. But they’re all very good of course.
With this base, you can also mix it with other things, we did a fridge clear out with this mix but with meat balls, mushrooms, and tofu, it’s great. Just remember to up the seasonings accordingly if you’re adding more ingredients to the mix.
2. In Yunnan, this kind of Dai flavored liangban cold dishes are not always pounded in a mortar, sometimes it’s just a simple mix, so feel free to go either route.
3. From our experience, MSG from different brands may taste slightly different. We like to use a couple Chinese brands, and abroad we always like to stick to Ajinomoto. When using MSG, don’t go too crazy, start with 1/8 tsp for about 300g-500g of ingredients, and find the level that you like the most. Sometime we see certain meme food recipes going for 1 tsp or even more, which in our opinion can be overpowering. But just any other seasonings, MSG should be used in moderation, it's all about balancing and adjusting flavors.
4. About my “MSG diet”, it’s a joke, kind of. So I (Steph) did lost some weight over the years (as you can see in the old clip, I was rounder before).
Since doing the channel, we started to learn, explore, and apply different ways to season our food. And over the years, using the proper seasoning has helped us made our food tastier. And when our food tastes good, magically my craving for junk food and high calories baked goods (one of my biggest weakness) become lower and lower overtime. I started to be able to appreciate food more and feel very satisfied after an appropriate amount of eating.
We still eat junk food of course because they have their special appeal. But when your “healthy food” is also tasty, eating junk food from time to time is not a problem at all, and you don’t even have to bear that mental burden of thinking “I’m a shitty person for putting junk in my body”. You can actually enjoy it.
Anyway, all I’m saying here is that, eat more vegetables, use proper seasoning to make your food tasty, enjoy a healthy MSG life😊
5. In the talk in the final bit, the Cantonese term for “non-Cantonese” is 外江 (ngoi gong), meaning “outside rivers or other rivers”. It’s generally used to describe people that’s not from the Pearl River Delta, or sometimes being used to describe anyone that’s non-local.
6. Chen Mong Yen (陈梦因) is considered to be the first ever food critic in Hong Kong media. He had a column in Hong Kong’s Sing Tao Daily, which had been a very influential column about Cantonese food. What we showed in the video is a reprint of a collection first published in 1951 of his daily talks from the column.
In the video, we only cited the kind of discriminatory comments on MSG from his writing, he was indeed a great food critic nonetheless. There’s so much valuable and first-hand information about food from not only Guangdong but also other parts of China. And you can find many lost or obscure dishes mentioned in his articles.
So please don’t judge him just by these couple quotes, he was bonded by his time, like we all do. He’s still one of my all-time-favorite food writers though our opinions may differ on certain topics.
7. And the hate against MSG in the Cantonese world (and in some other parts in China) in fact still has more nuance and other aspects that we didn’t cover in this video, but that’s an whole other topic, which we hope to talk about more in the future.
8. And who’s the little guy in the back? Well, it’s a sassy little Anarchist Penguin that sneers at the presumption of human hierarchy.
And that’s it for now, enjoy MSG!
I completely agree with the idea that making healthy food taste good helps curb cravings for junky food.
I didn't work a lot of fresh vegetables into my usual diet until I started getting into things like quick pickles, marinated vegis, and some other more specific dishes I had seen here on youtube (thanks for all the great ideas!)
@@ChineseCookingDemystified So even though other Chinese people dislike MSG, you decided not to go into that "whole other topic", simply electing to perpetuate the "laowai are racist when they don't like MSG" narrative.
Got it. 👍
@@ChineseCookingDemystified To be fair, you did tell people like @SimpleFluorescence, people who have trouble holding difficult ideas in their head, not to watch the last part of the video. XD
@@SimpleFluorescence Please reread note 7. Also at around the 1-minute mark, Steph explicitly says they (folks like us consuming food/cooking-related content in Western spaces, aka laowai) are not all racist. I'm baffled at how you reached the conclusion you did, but I do hope you see this comment and take some time to self-reflect.
circle A penguin is cute
Your channel is the perfect mixture of cooking lesson, food history, cuisine philosophy, and gastronomy in popular culture.
I'm sorry, I had to say it. I read out your comment in the voice of the character in your avatar. It was hilarious!
"I am CREEEDENCE Leonore Gielgood" "Aaahhh! Think about the cholesterol! Think about... THE TOXINS...!"
Sometimes watching their stuff makes me emotional hahaah, it's just so clear how much passion they have for food and teaching and they do such a great, thoughtful job of it. High up among my favorite TH-camrs for sure.
Capitalist profit logic, complex societal topics AND a recipe for delicious chinese food in one video? You guys are my favourite youtube channel! ❤
As a fellow who learned to speak, read, and write Chinese 58 years ago; and who has worked, travelled and enjoyed every minute of the 12 years I did so, I adore you two and offer my sincere thanks for your efforts! I try to savor your every video. 🤠 Blessings from Texas!
Love you guys, as always. Thank you for bringing some logic to this whole MSG situation and reminding people that you don't get bonus points for making vegetables cause suffering to your taste buds.
This was so informative. I didn’t even know that the person who wrote the original letter was Cantonese. It’s crazy how far one person put Asian food behind because of their own classism
Maybe. There's apparently some controversy about who wrote the letter and why. On the one hand there was an American surgeon who claimed to have written it as an obvious joke about drinking too much and overeating (he said the name should've been a clear giveaway- Robert Ho Man Kwok= Robert Human Crock (of Sh__), doctor at a made up research lab) that was blown way out of proportion by people who didn't get the joke. On the other there's a claim by a Michigan family that their father was a doctor and researcher actually named Ho Man Kwok and that he actually did write the letter as well as having worked at the supposedly fictitious lab. It's a very weird story either way.
@@wilsoncalhounThis American Life debunked that. It’s a great listen.
I was not aware of this either. Thank you for bringing it to light.
He wasn't. Decades later, an american physician named Dr. Howard Steel identified himself as the author of the 1968 article. He had, as was common at the time, written the letter as a joke. The pseudonym is a play on words: Ho Ma Kwok sounds very similar to common insult at the the time - human crock of sh**. Of course, there is no way to verify the story, but there is also no record of any Dr. Ho Man Kwok in any other medical publication, society or similar.
@@DangerSquiggles Please refer to the answer given by ChineseCookingDemystified a little further up.
Thank you. This is a healthy way of arguing why MSG can and should be part of our meals.
This is only tangentially related to what you said but increasingly people tend to oscillate between two extremes-either they divorce pleasure from food and look at food only as a source of nutrition, or they live in mortifying guilt of deriving pleasure from food. This way of thinking is now seeping into many young people even in countries with strong culinary traditions such as India (I can't say about China). Neither of those states are healthy or sustainable.
A balanced meal and a varied diet is all anyone needs. No meal, no matter how optimised for nutrition, is healthy (for your body or your mind) if that is all you eat everyday. Establishing a system of eating rather than looking at each individual ingredient or meal is what we need.
some eat to live, some live to eat (MSG).
good tasting food feeds the body and the soul.
Another fantastic video; I especially really enjoy the historical deep dives and frank, unfiltered takes from both Chris and Steph. Awesome to hear these different perspectives with informed backgrounds.
You have no idea how your channel has changed my life in the most positive way. Kudos to you and keep inspiring the community with your insights❤
Hehehe “chicken powder” is the replacement for directly saying MSG added.
chicken powder is the diluted MSG that makes it easier to portion out. MSG is a lot more potent than salt and it is hard to control how much you add at home, chicken powder thin it out in a way that makes it similar to using salt
@@harrytsang1501I would disagree personally that msg is more potent than salt. I feel as though I can use a lot of msg before it's overbearing. With salt it goes from good to inedible real fast in a way I've never felt with msg.
Chicken powder or Knorr/Maggie chicken bouillon powder is diluted msg with other unnecessary ingredients. Most of the chicken powder uses less quality msg along with anti caking agents , artificial flavours , artificial colours , preservatives and most importantly salt ! . Learning to use the MSG salts is much better than using a mystery powder made my multi national conglomerates with shady backgrounds and have the worst record for selling dogsh*t
Chicken powder usually has Disodium 5 Nucleotides in it - that enhances the Glutamates in MSG.
That and yeast and other protein extracts that give it an extra depth from just MSG and salt and sugar.
Another seven years for that video?
@@EmsThaBreaks441 huh, that's cool! I'll check that out! I sometimes use it instead, but often I just use msg so I don't bring in a bunch of other flavors that might clash. I find straight msg easier to control in that way.
Well said. I started using MSG a couple of years ago without telling anyone and there were no complaints. Many thanks for doing this
I tried to get MSG from walmart, they said they don't sell it, but have a flavor enhancer, whose only ingredient is MSG. lol
You're probably paying way more than you need to.
If you have an asian supermarket near you, you'll find Ajinomoto brands there that will probably be a lot cheaper than what's at walmart as "flavor enchancer"
@@JulianCastelle23 Last a long time too, since you only need a pinch every time.
Accent is a name brand MSG
Thank you Steph and Chris for always taking such care and reflexivity with your videos. Perhaps your audience is “niche” (and perhaps being in that niche gives me a certain sense of self satisfaction!) but I’m constantly impressed by your willingness to bring your viewers along as you examine “heated” topics and to land in a place of nuance and complexity. As a western sinophile there’s really nothing better than your blend of regional culinary history, food science and deep experiential knowledge of navigating the China/West interface. A channel that supremely lives up to its name. Love your work ❤
In the words of Anthony Bourdain: "You know what causes Chinese Restaurant Syndrome? Racism."
I use msg in all my cooking :)
Try finding Vegeta or Začin C from ex-Yougoslavia. It's a salt and dried vegetable mixture with MSG, but it also has ribonucleotides that enhance MSG.
yea maybe, but definitely some people that sensitive to it. My grandpa got red rash after eating food with too much of it and I got little dizzy
@@chrisyoung1576 Do you eat Doritos?
@@arnorrian1 I did ate it few times and get a little dizzy afterwards
Unfortunately Anthony was correct.
I'm quite picky about food channels and blogs - i always try to make sure i learn about things in depth, with context and mostly from people with actual passion. discovering our channel has been a joy, im vegan so clearly for most things i use more what i learn then adhere to step by step recipe, but im just always astonished by the work you to do and put forward. the research, the way you teach, your approach. not only was i never let down by a video, but i really am just amazed every time by each new video and this one was no different. ty for this, ty for the recipe, ty for putting it out.
Great video as always! I really love this turn you guys have taken lately where the videos are equal parts history, cooking, and politics/philosophy. Good shit!
Love the anarchist penguin in the background ♥️
Omg YES thank u for pointing that out
Little anarchist penguin save me
Then she started talking about hierarchies and I was like "yup"
Do you guys happen to know the "Känguru Chroniken" ? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Kangaroo_Chronicles it's been translated into a lot of languages, chapeau to the translators! - tough stuff to get those jokes across.
So any fans of the Känguru will gasp at an anarchist penguin - bcs in the book, the PENGUIN is the antagonist of the Kangaroo. The Kangaroo is communist and claims to have been brought up by the Viet-Cong, it is - if anything - also pretty anarchist. The penguin is a capitalist, conformist, system soldier. So I like what you do for penguins here, showing that their species is not a monolithic block, but that also penguins have free thought and can chose to be anything they want. Including an anarchist. Just as Kängurus.
I was wondering if I was the only one who noticed that!
Your channel is the perfect mixture of cooking lesson. Thank you for bringing some logic to this whole MSG situation and reminding people that you don't get bonus points for making vegetables cause suffering to your taste buds.
A personal opinion on using MSG "at the right time":
Disclaimer: White guy from Sydney here, who learned Chinese cooking from my mother, a white lady who lived in Darwin for a few years, amongst Chinese neighbours (likely Cantonese, some Nonya). She took lessons from her Cantonese neighbour (back in the 1970s). Me, I'm in my late 40s. Been driving a wok, and using MSG, since I was maybe 10 years old.
I have heard, and I don't remember where, (I think it was a source I trusted, could have been Malaysian?), that MSG should be used *sparingly*, and only in particular dishes. The reason is that MSG is a flavour *enhancer*. As such, it can "over-season" some very subtle dishes. I sometimes do shojin ryori/Japanese "monastic" cooking myself, and the idea is you use very subtle flavours. Say you go on a fast, or go "raw vegan" for a few days, or are ill and can only eat bland foods for a few days. Your palate will "reset", and your sense of taste will be stronger. My favourite dish during such a period (say, a long weekend meditation/monastic food), is simple zucchini slices. Take one zucchini, and cut lengthwise into (~quarter inch) strips. It tastes like this:
- Simple steamed - "quite nice, it tastes like zucchini".
- Grilled in a grill pan, a few char marks, no oil, "Ooooh, this is very nice. I like that".
- Grilled in a grill pan... sprinkled with a little salt, "WOW! This is delicious! Where have you been all my life!"
Then I go back to my regular ways. And my palate adjusts back to "normal everyday eating". I might grill the zucchini, add some salt, pepper, MSG, a little extra virgin olive oil, maybe a little garlic, or a tiny amount of sugar, and think "Meh, this is a pretty good side dish. Not bad. Bring on the chilli pork!"
My point is that as a flavour "enhancer" you get "used to it". MSG stops making food taste "better", but, (to yourself), it makes food tastes "normal". In fact, food without MSG tastes "blander", like there's something missing. So, you have to put MSG in "everything" you cook. (Not to slander the more highly educated American friends in your audience, but it's a similar perception by foreigners that "Americans put sugar in EVERYTHING! Even bread, and french fries!")
So the advice was "save MSG (and chicken powder) for dishes where it really enhances things. Omit it when it doesn't." The example that I remember was:
- Char Kway Teow - LOAD IT UP FULL OF MSG! It should taste like a punch to the face!
- Simple green vegetables - don't use MSG or chicken powder. Maybe use a little garlic if you want. "The vegetables should taste like vegetables".
Anyway, that's my two cents. For the record, even though I live alone, I go through quite a lot of MSG. I buy it in half-kilo bags (~one pound), and go through a couple of bags per year. And I use it in most savoury "western" dishes as well. Casseroles, Mexican beans, Italian foods etc. About the only thing I don't put it in are Japanese dishes, where I boil up kombu/kelp to extract the MSG.
I do admit that I store my MSG in a container labelled "Organic Crystalline Kelp Extract", so that I don't need to have "the debate" with guests :)
Outstanding video as always. Would love to see some Yunnan dishes!
It's fine in Japanese too, in dashi, I'd just go light on it. But yeah, I mean, that's where Ajinomoto is from anyway haha. Most commercial instant dashi has some MSG in it unless it's 無添加
This was quite similar to our opinion in the beginning of the channel. If you dig up the old Reddit post on “how to actually use MSG” (connected to the MSG noodles recipe), we express tangential? ideas.
I think it’s obviously true that your tastes can build up tolerance. I guess it’s a normative question - does it *matter*? Over the years, I’ve started becoming more sensitive to sweet and sour, and less to spicy and umami. I’m sometimes a little shocked to look at our old recipes and see how much sugar tasted ‘balanced’ to me at the time. These things ebb and flow with the years. Recently, I’ve found myself wanted to go a little lighter on the additives that use I+G. Maybe it’ll be a trend, maybe it won’t. Thus, ‘season to taste’ :)
Great move with the labeling! I'll copy that unabashedly for other stuffs. (Is this vegan? ...suuure..yeah- how should I know fish sauce isn't???)
@@ChineseCookingDemystified btw, it doesn't only ebb and flow, but change with age! My dad is now experiencing this (he's 70ish) and is really struggling...but aging was never for sissies 😕 Is it Ang Lee's "Eat, Drink, Man, Woman" that also touches on the subject?
@@ChineseCookingDemystified That's true with all strong flavours, though. Five years ago, my tolerance for spicy was far, far lower than it is now. Then I started cooking Thai and Sichuan dishes. Now I put sriracha sauce on my breakfast.
And @charlotte.b.2123 it's also true about age. Kids love sweet things but hate bitter things. Adults grow out of their sweet tooth (to a certain degree) and start enjoying more complex flavours. Old people often need stronger flavours to enjoy their food because taste can deteriorate with old age just like any of the other senses.
I've a feeling recently there's been a transition from "Did you know MSG is bad" being fashionable, to now "Did you know 'MSG bad' was a myth and it's actually great?" being more fashionable.
I feel like this is still only confined to people who have an interest in food science. The average person on the street is still going to think it's bad because tons of food labels proudly proclaim 'no MSG'. By way of sheer osmosis, that's going to permeate through the public consciousness in a way that niche TH-cam videos just can't.
You're right, but I also trust this channel fornot falling into this kind of traps.
i love adding msg to italian food, poor man's parmesan
Something ironic about watching a video about the contribution of classism in China to anti MSG ideas, specific how MSG was negatively associated with lower classes, then calling MSG the “poor man’s” version of something else lol
@@1TieDye1 To be fair, it also costs a lot less.
@@1TieDye1 MSG IS cheaper than parmesan, Parmigiano Reggiano, pecorino, gouda, and the other grating types. Almost six dollars for a pound of Ajinomoto, whereas even the sawdust, pre-grated "parmesan" stuff is typically more expensive-- by two dollars. Given that pure MSG packs a much bigger punch than cheese for such small amounts (versus shredding through lbs of hard cheese), MSG is the economical choice.
Fish sauce is great for this, it's got that same sort of funk
@@threetoastthe ancient Romans actually used something like fish sauce in their cooking called “garum”
I've been watching for years. Very informative. And you two are lovely people.
The only cooking channel with a dialectical materialist critique of crunchy epistemology with chinese characteristics
😂
Careful you'll be put on a CIA watchlist with that commie language
@@tommos1 : 👍😂👍
what a phrase
This kind of exposition on the social/cultural aspects of food is awesome. Please do more!
My (Polish immgrant) family have been gleefully using MSG in everything for at least 5 decades - in the form of Maggi liquid seasoning, or Kucharek stock powder. I maintain it's the secret ingredient in my gran's pasta sauce.
Recently, my Dad got drawn into the 'MSG is terrible' camp, based on the usual articles online, and were concerned about it being in Chinese recipes. I laughed heartily, and pointed out the Maggi on the counter-top, and his abiding love of tomatoes (one of the richest plant sources of MSG)
Funny thing is that while I generally don't use straight-up MSG in my pasta or pizza sauces, I very often use Red Boat fish sauce, and the fermentation of the anchovies give you a liquid rich in three flavor potentiators: glutamates, salt, and inosinates. I occasionally add shrimp paste though, and that specifically lists MSG as an ingredient. Like all seasoning, it's the balance that matters.
Well, for what it's worth, about a year in watching your videos, I added MSG to my cupboard. I trusted you guys, and while it's still not second nature to grab for the jar, I've used it many times to improve my dishes. Twenty years ago I wouldn't have believed that, but your explanations and arguments simply worked.
Very informative, thanks for that. Loved the anarchist penguin at the end--allegorical.
I absolutely adore you guys! You've done so much for my own cooking, and I can never thank you enough :-). Keep going!
Learning to use MSG (sorry, "all natural seaweed crystals") was one of the most valuable lessons I've learned from this channel. Keep up the good work.
I am not exaggerating, i think this is absolutely the best channel on youtube.
Really appreciated the dialectial marerial analysis of the MSG bad argument
I just wanted to stop by and say thank you for this very informative and enlightening episode. My Asian parents have drilled it in me since childhood the 'MSG IS BAD FOR YOU' mindset. And this mentality probably came from my extended paternal and maternal sides strangely. Nobody ever questioned the rationale/logic of it. It just was something that was passed down from generation to generation. Don't get me wrong, it's not like we as an extended Asian family were actively preaching the whole 'MSG bad' idea. It was one of those strange little things that great grandma said, which eventually grandma said in passing which ultimately was gleaned from mother. Therefore, today's episode is literal food for thought - to always remember (for me, at least) to mentally question why something is rather than just accepting it as fact. 😀
reading through all the comments, I was wondering if 'msg is bad for you' is a bit like 'salt is bad for you' or 'sugar is bad for you' - it's a message boiled down to a very, very short thus crude level. Maybe it was meant as a 'don't overdo salt bcs starting from a certain amount, if it is way more than your metabolism needs, it'll start being bad for you' ?
My Dad was always very opposed to MSG. I don't know why and he wasn't the only one. I think there was this wave of anti MSG propaganda in the 80s in China maybe, in the south. My Grandma complained that she couldn't even use a little MSG when she stayed with us because his son wouldn't allow it in the house. Then again, is MSG less common in Cantonese cooking compared to in the north though?
Such an amazing young lady you explain things so simply so every one can decide for them self love your channel and your recipes thank you for being you ❤
Fantastic video. In the first part I think you've approached the issue in a way that will make sense to a lot of people struggling to pick a side on this issue. I love cooking fresh food, and I love adding a little MSG.
Wow! Thanks so much for sharing this history and these recipes. I love it!
Thank you for keeping up the great channel... I always love your videos. Re: MSG... my mother insisted that even a tiny amount of MSG would give her a headache, and my father insists that it "sets his teeth on edge". I just don't tell them it's there... if you trust the chef making it, then trust that they know when to stop adding it. :)
as a bio student, i'm gonna say that food tastes umani (including MSG) because they contain glutamate, an amino acids widely exist in the world that can be detected by human taste bud. A Japanese scientist isolate it from see weed soup and that is where the word umami comes from. oyster sauces, soy bean sauce, and Haichang（海肠) powder, which are all used to bring up the taste of umami, are rich in glutamates. and MSG is monosodium glutamate, actually a fermented products of corn, not artificially synthesized. So I guess the only bad thing about MSG is that it contains sodium, which might cause people to feel thirsty and might increase the risk of hypertension. There is another reason for hatred towards MSG, the competition between capitals. a foreign company wanted to enter the Chinese market of MSG, so they started a massive campaign claiming how unhealthy MSG is and people should choose their "natural chicken powder", which is still MSG. As a result, Chinese people become so resistant to MSG, but fine with chicken powder, and the domestic MSG industries were almost destroyed. PS I really agree with your discussion about the root of MSG hatred. I agree how cantonese culture claims its economical & cultural superiority by cooking in the most "authentic and natural" way with "the best" ingredients to get the "organic" umami. Guangdong has been the wealthiest place historically, that causes strong cultural influence and its classism towards taste and food culture. As a big fan of Sichuan dish, I'm very sad to hear them say spicy food is invented out of poverty, how spices and condiments are used to cover the bad taste of inferior ingredients and cantonese food is the only decent food in the world
Your video is a very interesting exposition of the complex, multiple-crossroads-intersections of food, politics, culture, and geography. VERY well done! I have no strong feelings about MSG one way or the other. Late in life, now I use it occasionally in my cooking, only because I was very slow to add it to my pantry. I don't know why. I'm sure I've been eating it most of my life in other places though. In my own cooking, I notice an ENORMOUS difference and improvement in the flavor and umami component whenever I use even small amounts of it in a very simple "instant pot" combination of white beans and raw ("brown") rice, pressure-cooked only with water. I think almost anybody would prefer it over the exact same very-simple recipe cooked without it. So I also use it now for more complex recipes too. I've NEVER experience ANY adverse health effects I could attribute to using MSG. Your video is a great, and very interesting service to those of us who are interested in food. (Is there anybody who isn't?)
love the anarchist penguin lol
I myself try to limit the amount of very processed foods (Doritos etc) that often contain more MSG than what you’d get in just, well, normally cooked and seasoned food. This channel is a great help for me, since you show really cool and interesting flavour combinations and ingredients I’d never have heard of otherwise.
Great talk! I don't know about "northern" cuisines, but Sichuan (which is a subbranch of the Northern tradition even though the province is often categorized as "South" West geographically) cuisine surely used MSG well into 90s and beyond. A cooking school textbook published in 1987 discusses Gaotang (高汤, akin to soup stock I suppose) in the context of MSG usage. (It encourages flavoring more with Gaotang and less MSG, but never shies away from it.) Meanwhile, Sichuan has the same widespread folklore that restaurants add MSG to make customers feel thirsty so they can sell more drinks, which bear higher margin. There may be a kernel of truth in this lore. MSG does tame the sting of salt, thus allowing more salt content in the food before it tastes excessive.
Already love this channel, but seeing the cicle 'A' badge in the background makes me like the channel even more!
Yet another informative video. Thanks, guys.
My favorite use of MSG is in popcorn salt. I put a 1:10 ratio of salt to MSG in a mortar and pestle and grind it into a powder.
That's not a bad idea, have you tried nutritional yeast? I like that on popcorn and it's a similar idea.
Love this video. Thank you for synthesizing all this information
Genuinely fascinating. You guys are so good at covering these contentious subjects (like your wet markets and gutter oil vids). Love the humour, too. 🙂
delighted by the return of anarchist penguin
I happily use soy sauce so never subscribed to the "MSG is bad" thing. However, I do know that like anything high in sodium, MSG makes my blood pressure spike so use it sparingly. Having said that, the amount of MSG in soy is a bit obscure so using powdered MSG would absolutely make it easier to control the sodium. Whatever works for you, I guess. Thanks for bringing the magic of Chinese home cooking to us :)
It took decades before my mom found out, from me, that the secret to her Thanksgiving gravy was literally MSG. "Accent" was just always what we added, and I finally pointed it out to her, we kinda just never told the family so no one got weird about it. Now I put MSG on my scrambled eggs because it's just good.
Uncle approve!!!
Thank you for having a rational conversation about this.
Really enjoyed this one. Nice work.
As a Filipino chef that's been taught by Europeans, I used to be ashamed of MSG and scoff at the idea of using it. My logic was, I can achieve the same flavors naturally. Good thing Uncle Roger became viral. Now, I am proud that I use MSG for my home cooking. And being Filipino, I have 4 sources of MSG (pure MSG, Magic Sarap, chicken powder and liquid seasoning) that's not tomato, fish paste, fish sauce and soy sauce.
MSG! Fuiyoh!!!
There is a different perspective that I would like to bring to the table as someone who prefers to avoid cooking with processed sugar. It would be interesting for you to cover Natural MSG sources/"Alternatives" in Chinese Food in General. Similar to how Japan has Kombu or Italy has Parmigiano Reggiano
A very interesting topic, and personally very well timed! I've been following your channel for a few years now and had come to the understanding that the "MSG phobia" was a western thing and that MSG was as ordinary and uncontroversial in China as salt pr sugar. Until I talked about using MSG with my co-worker with a Chinese (Shanghainese) background just a few weeks ago. They were surprised that I use it and told that their parents never use it and say it's "cheating", mirroring exactly the sentiment you described in your video.
Love the informational videos.
Such an insightful video, thank you so much
That Dai cucumber recipe is one of my absolute favourites over the years, I make it perhaps once a week. I can’t believe it’s been seven years already!
Real food has nutrients, processed food is devoid of nutrients to mitigate spoilage and increase shelf life. MSG is awesome. Put MSG on real food and enjoy! Thank you guys! Always love your videos.
4:22 About that, a German research group won an Ig Nobel prize this year for research that shows that placebo effects are more effective when they have a negative side effect. The strongest effect comes when the side effect is painful (looking at you, homeopathy), but you can reasonably say that loonies can actually benefit slightly from their healthy food tasting bad, but who honestly wants to live like that.
Really adds to the phrase "no pain no gain" huh
Celery juice drinkers will tell you till their throats are dry that the reason you know the juice works is the vile taste. There is this thinking of if something is good for you it will taste bad and that good tasting foods are bad for you innately. I don’t really know the origins of this thinking but I will blame puritans because it seems like something they would argue for. You have to torture and restrict yourself to be worthy of salvation and all that.
where is homeopathie painful though? it's insipid nothingness xD
as for a possibly boosted placebo effect: i reckon that might be blown out the window by the positive effects of eating good food. plus, the nutrients and fibre one gets from veggies aren't exactly a form of placebo-effect, so their impact can't be directly boosted like that (maybe the effects further down the line can though, i admit)
It’s not placebo. Hard work pays off jack
Will you really live longer, or will it just feel longer?
Love this! Been using MSG for years and couldn't imagine not using it - it would be like trying to make food without salt or sugar. I could, but it would be bland for no reason!
I do think it's a little important to clarify 'ultra-processed' foods when discussing junk food and health in food. But that is such an aside from the great video. Thanks for the info!
That was powerful and brave. I had no idea where Ho Man Kwok was coming from and never would have unless someone like you, who can read Cantonese and knows the food history of the area explained it.
interesting topic. informative and gives me a culinary license so I do not have to worry so much when my bag of m.s.g is pulled out from my spice cabinet.
Love how this channel strives to be unbiased in its commentary and work through issues with logic. I consider myself part of the anti-msg camp however and the reasoning is simple. MSG is kind of like a cheat code. It is really just scientifically extracted umami and lowers the bar to produce " good tasting food", which means your brain is pre-programed to express "yum" when you consume msg. For a cuisine like cantonese, that emphasizes the taste of the natural ingredients, which in the right combination, and cooking methodology applied, produce brilliant flavors, using msg removes the art behind it and if you are really discerning, you will start to notice all dishes using msg have hints of a similar taste. Of course, it is just an ingredient and can be used in varying quantities to produce amazing food coupled with the skill of the chef, but understand there are reasons why esteemed cantonese chefs (some from HK lol) eschew the use of MSG that is not just because of racism or 'holier than thou'
god i love this video. so well put. great job.
I learn so much from this channel. Here's some essential backstory I never heard before. Thank you!
As a vegetarian I add it to many dishes that lack for instance stock or other umami enhancers. I've noticed a teaspoon already goes a long way and I tend to reduce the amount of salt I add to the dish to compensate. If you just consider it as a type of salt I don't see all the hubbub.
You guys are the cultural influence I didn’t have growing up BBC. I still want to fulfil my childhood dreams and make ur mantou but I’m having trouble locating the yeast. At least you’ve armed me with the knowledge now
I enjoy seeing more light shed to any audience about the history of MSG. I personally love the stuff but at the end of the day do what is right to you, we can still be friends!
This has to be my favorite video that you guys ever made. Loved the analysis of the philosophical differences between the pro and anti MSG crowd and its consequences. Also loved the deep dive into the history of anti-MSG sentiment and tracing it back to its Chinese origins. Would not mind at all if future videos included more or even was exclusively historical (and sociological?) content.
I’ve been using Accent (pure MSG on savory dishes for 40 years, often having to hide on top cabinet shelves from better - 1/2 who feared it but loved the food. It’s like mirin in that it’s hard to point out but you know it if it isn’t there.
love your work so much!!!
I'm making a pork roast tonight, and the cucumber salad sounds like a great addition to go with it. Thanks for sharing, and the discussion about MSG and why it is stigmatized.
You've helped me enjoy cooking with msg. I find it hilarious that some people I know whine about how Chinese food gives them a headache because of "all that msg" while munching on nacho flavored doritos with "all that msg".😂
Please do a video comparing MSG and its various replacements, chicken powder, mushroom powder etc
salt is a flavor enhancer, too.
Man I love MSG and if I die like 30 minutes earlier than I would have otherwise, but lived a life with delicious MSG as the tradeoff, well... I am using MSG whenever I want and I enjoy its magical powers.
So interesting to see this after I’ve been getting into lots of msg fights online after the recently viral tiktok cucumber salad that uses msg has set off the anti-msg delusional folks. This level of depth and nuance on the subject is far more than I knew and so critical to an informed perspective!
You see the same class thing in Italy with garlic, poor agricultural people use it in their cooking for flavour, and you see a lot of snobbery by the rich about it, even though it’s very good for you and also imparts a nice flavour
Love this channel! I'm so proud of you all, and still so disappointed to see "No MSG" displayed on labels for common spice mixtures found in the US. It's getting better (as in, I think many Americans aren't actively avoiding MSG) but the average American still doesn't understand what an incredible flavor enhancer MSG can be.
Glad to have the section on your take where the origins of the MSG scare comes from. I've definitely always thought too many my old Cantonese aunties are anti-MSG for the problem to be a purely western one. In fact an uncle last time I was in Hong Kong basically verbatim told me there was no point in looking for somewhere to eat some lanzhou pulled noodles because it's "all just MSG soup" lol
I have always enjoyed dishes with MSG as long as its not excessive. thanks for another great topic
Very interesting. Well done.
Ignorance is a terrible thing. The level of ignorance on the subject of foods is amazingly high. Used correctly MSG can help to lower the overall level of salt in a dish. In the US damm near everything has MSG but the folks who bitch about MSG choose to be ignorant of the subject. You folks have a great channel. Keep up the great work.
I happily, and proudly have MSG in my spice rack.
thanks for being so reasonable and decent. need more of it on the internet.
So proud of you for coming out and saying this. It's definitely a huge myth in the cooking world that at best is misinformed and at worst is flat out prejudice disguised...
That being said, some people may experience headaches with high loads of MSG in foods (but they may also get this from sulfites or from high sodium loads), as all these things have an impact on our vascular system.
Glutamate specifically is an excitatory neurotransmitter and so this is a thought about how it might be implicated. There's also some basic science level lab research that suggests that it might feed already active cancer. (Note that I'm NOT saying it's a carcinogen, or cancer causing substance)
Your videos are awesome. From the cooking to the culture stuff. Your "gutter oil" video helped me kindly correct some friends, multiple times, and it was both well taken by them and mind opening.
Beautiful work.
This was a really, really interesting introspection on food philosophy. I would like to see more!
Growing up in Hong Kong and the US, it's always frustrated me that we were such a classist society. Like I could understand racism in the US; it made sense to me, a kid, that people would hate people who looked different than them. It's evil, for sure, but I always felt that it's equally so if not more evil to discriminate against people who practically looked the same as you but spoke a little differently and ate slightly different foods and came from a county a couple hours train ride north. As much as I'm glad that y'all are making a video (again) pointing out how MSG is actually a good thing I'm happier that someone is finally pointing out that Cantonese classism exists and how it influenced culinary and social history in the US.
(Related: If you ever get a chance to look into the clash between established Cantonese immigrants and newcomers from Fujian in the NYC Chinese / restaurant community in the 80s and 90s it's quite fascinating.)
On my first visit to NYC in 2007, a good (Cantonese) Chinese American friend of mine gave me the full tour of Manhattan, walking through all the important neighborhoods. As the sun set we had reached Chinatown. "Let's go visit my grandma", she said, "she lives just down here". As we got closer, my friend pointed down a side street, "Down there is where all the Fujianese live. We don't talk to them"!
That does sound fascinating! I'd love to learn more. Do you have any recommendations on where to start?
It is important to understand that classism (Cantonese or otherwise) starts with simple differences. The type of classism just depends on the attributes that are being differentiated. Whether that be money, locale, or language or something else. Given that China itself is in many ways more like if Europe were one big country with hundreds of languages and economic stratifications. There are inevitable linguistics and economic differences intrinsic to any large population. Even in Guangdong, there are dozens of dialects that are mutually unintelligible, and these dialects are often conflated to infer economic status.
So, while classism may at first seem odd (or even evil), it is more important to understand that it is a certainty given the diversity of the country and province. It only seems odd since national efforts promote homogeneity of culture and language in China.
@@Obscurai I live in one of the smallest countries in the world (Belgium) and even here we have a similar situation. There's the language/culture/economical divide between Flanders and Wallonia and the German-speaking population, and within Flanders there's outrageous classism between the provinces and political and ideological gaps you wouldn't think possible in cities that are literally bordering each other, there's heavy classism around dialects and even accents, it would take days to even explain it all. And this is all happening in a country it takes about five hours to drive through length-wise. I can only imagine how much more complex it gets in a country as vast and ancient as China.
Sometimes it's disheartening to see how small of a difference people need to default to tribalism. It's all understandable if you know the background, but it's still sad to see sometimes.
I love your facial expression on "the jury is still out". The eyes and the little frown says so much 😂
Great video and sound reasoning!
MSG has a bad name in the UK, but that's because of the low quality foods it appeared in such as Pot Noodle as a flavour enhancer. It is a flavour enhancer just like salt, add it into a quality dish and you boost the flavour, just like salt. I used to be deadly against it (I knew nothing of its Oriental background) because it only appeared in low quality food, it was actually seeing a young Chinese Chef in the UK (I can't remember if it was TV or TH-cam) doing a piece on it. He started in the against camp, did a quick history on it, then made a pumpkin soup with and without and did a taste test. MSG lifted the soup above the other and made a much richer taste. So I've been aware that it is a valid condiment which is overused by low quality food processers to give bland food a better taste and used sparingly by good cooks to enhance good quality dishes.
Incredibly well spoken
As a white American, I grew up in an era where MSG was just widely "understood" to be bad and a number of even Asian restaurants would advertise that they did not use it in their cooking. I feel both a little guilt and a little anger, as it seems that what I was eating not only wasn't authentic, even in places that claimed to be, but also that racist/classist notions were passed down unchallenged. Thanks for making this video and in defending an ingredient. Others on line have as well (Uncle Roger comes immediately to mind), and I'm glad the slander is being eliminated
I'm Bulgarian, I cook mostly Balkan or Mediterranean food and I love to put some MSG in. My friends and family like it a lot when I do, even if it remains my little secret.
10:04 [A Map of The Valid]. As someone living in Shanghai, I can attest to the validity of this 'Valid' map, except we exclude Beijing, but we might include Fujian.
my mom used msg in her cooking, but it was just a pinch. I love doritos, even though they are bad for you :) I use msg in my cooking, but I don't add a lot. Just a little bit to reduce the amount of salt I use in my cooking
Y'all are the real deal 💜
As a Dai, I believe the Dai cuisine is unique on its own, disimilar from Thai Yum. For sourness in Dai salad, we use three types. Dai style tomato sauce, rice vinevgar, or juice from fermented mustard green. To balance out the sourness with sweetness, we rarely use sugar. We use palm sugar sauce or sugar cane sauce. We use sugar cane or palm sugar and cook them in low heat until it is thick. The color and texture will be similar to dark soy sauce but it is sweet and a bit smokey. It gaves the Dai salad that deep and smokey sweetness. We top the salad with cilantro or sawtooth coriander.
Was Steph on a China Southern flight from guangzhou to nanjing a couple of days ago by any chance? Randomly walked past someone who I could have sworn was her getting out of the plane.
It's in some foods naturally from what I understand, like Parmesan Cheese for example.