Kylo Ren | Redemption Gone WRONG
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ก.ย. 2024
- #StarWars #KyloRen #Redemption
Sometimes, redemption isn't always the answer.
Kylo Ren's Redemption just didn't work and it's clear to see why it went wrong.
Link to Finn's cut TROS Arc: • Finn The LOST Protagonist
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Kylo kept saying he was “pulled to the light”, but never once did a single positive thing or even had any hint on why he was so determined to do extreme acts of evil. He didn’t make any sense, but was hammered into this half-assed redemption arc for tradition’s sake. And fan girls.
There was only one scene where it showed that he was conflicted. That was in The Last Jedi when he was going to shoot his mothers ship. He thinks about it and decides to take his thumb off the button. That's actually my favorite part in that garbage movie. It actually showed me he had an inner conflict with the light and dark side of the force.
that's the biggest problem, those who wrote this character don't understand how the Force works on a fundamental level. There can't be a "pull to the light".
(Aside: IMO this narrative was the foundation for the Reylo's "UwU edgy boi doesn't really mean it, please pity the incel mass murderer!")
The dark side is the seductive one, which gives you the quick and easy path to superhuman feats, at the cost of your "soul". The light side requires rigorous training and discipline to achieve mastery, but it can give the user much more than the dark side.
Kylo's bullshit "I'm sO cOnFLiCtEd" is just the script committing the cardinal movie sin of telling instead of showing. As you mentioned, he says things which we are shown no corresponding actions to. He's not a good character, no matter how many people say this. Driver is a really good actor, which is the only thing the character has got going for it.
There were Children, Kel and Elia, are survivors of a massacre by Kylo Ren and the First Order, they described his lightsaber. Turns out Kylo Ren was hunting potential force sensitive children, like Eila. And people wants Kylo Ren to be redeem? Finn had dodge a bullet, since Kylo Ren sense the force in Finn even know his original name, FN-2187
yes! all the way from TFA, it was clear kylo’s redemption arc was never gonna be a thing. and then when TROS tried to force it, it was awkward & incredibly undeserved. but honestly i think the issue with Kylo goes back even before the timeline of the movies and starts with his “turning to the dark side” moment with Luke.
his villain origin story doesn’t make sense bc Luke as the catalyst doesn’t make sense. if Luke refused to kill his own dad who’s personally committed hundreds of horrible acts, then why in the heck would he try to kill kylo/ben, who at that point hadnt done one villainous thing whatsoever. at worst he probably failed a class lesson or smthg. “but, like Vader, he refused to kill him too” defense doesn’t work either bc it doesn’t make sense for Luke to even THINK about murdering his own nephew. and especially in his sleep?!?! Luke??? thee Luke Skywalker would attempt to murder his sister’s kid, who again hadn’t done not a single bad thing yet, in his sleep????? nah. doesn’t make sense. so from the very beginning of his villain origin story, Kylo’s storyline feels flimsy. and his “redemption” at the end only adds to the flimsiness.
A major problem with Kylo is that they had him lose his first fight against the protagonist. This makes him a non threat in the eyes of many viewers. Even if that isn’t true, I remember how many people were highly dismissive of him after that.
Besides him losing the fight, I also didn't think much of him when he took off his mask lol.
@@kimberlygaugh4085 the taking off the mask scene was so poorly timed. i still think instead of his face reveal being with Rey (i guess he got offended she called him gross??? whatever lol), the first time we see Kylo’s real face should’ve been in the Han scene. it would’ve had more impact because throughout the movie it would’ve just been this “creature in a mask” attacking everyone, inhuman both in his actions and appearance. if his face reveal had happened with Han, it would’ve emphasized the “he’s not just a villain, he’s a son and was once just a regular person” thing much more, especially with his unmasking happening bc of his father. and then him killing Han, it REALLY would’ve drove home the “whether ppl see him as /kylo/ or /ben/, he’s made his choice and chose the dark side” much more too. his face reveal being with Rey was so lackluster. it made it seem like he’s kinda weak and can’t take even the tiniest of insults. rey: “i bet you look like a poopoohead” kylo: “do not!!” kinda thing.
@@noodledogs exactly lol.
Agreed. They climaxed too soon, realistically she shouldn't have had a light saber battle with him at all. Just being able to escape his interrogation and leave the ship should have been enough.
@@WobblesandBean imo, Rey should've just been the character to go into the politics side of things and occasionally fight while Finn was the main character & Poe the pilot.
I liked how TLJ just rejected the idea of redemption and just made him the big bad.
Another problem with Kylo's redemption is that we didn't know him well enough in the first place to know whether or not there was enough good inside him to be redeemed. In the OT, we got to know Anakin second-hand via Kenobi, and once Vader was revealed as Anakin we could look back on his deeds and see them in a new light. Although the OT backstory is pretty minimal, it's enough to get a sense of a good man led astray, a friendship unravelled in tragic circumstances, a villain who feels like he's doing the best he can under the circumstances and does have some sort of moral code even though it is not as moral as the hero's, a father who is desperate for the love of a son but doesn't know if he's brave enough to accept it... etc. Then in the PT we get to see it all play out in front of us, confirming what we already suspected. With Kylo we don't get any of that. We don't know what he was like while he was still Ben. There are a few moments where the films try to do that but for one reason and another they fall flat, in my opinion, and are often a bit contradictory.
I’m giving this a standing ovation in my living room. I always thought the notion of Kylo being redeemed was ridiculous because HE KILLED HAN SOLO.
I could sort of understand the will he/won’t he in TLJ, because many a man has claim he’ll be better for a woman he wants. But TLJ ends with him yet again being the big bad. The thing I hate most about the redemption (apart from how it helped ruin Finn’s arc) is that it ruined a really good villain.
I don’t understand why Star Wars was so desperate to do fan service. Even if the fandom hates the movie they still watch it over and over. The general public, not so much.
Star Wars sadly doesn't know how to improve on creative choices that didn't go well. Just double down
The reasoning may also be tied to Disney wanting to sideline Finn in favour of Kylo after TFA.
Quote-ish from Dresden Files: "If you don't want to be a monster, then you aren't a monster". Kylo wanted to be a monster. Do the math.
TLJ ignored that for "Deep Storytelling" that led to Rey being gaslight and manipulated into helping Kylo kill Snoke and have the throne for himself. Honestly that whole movie should've reminded people, ESPECIALLY the fangirls that Ben Solo IS A MONSTER and he doesn't care who he has to kill for power. Him deciding not to kill your mom in a space battle because #guilt won't change shit.
@@windghost2 Yeah, him killing Han but not Leia was weird. I mean, it makes sense, but it's just the most basic Oedipal stuff. We never actually learn anything about his relationship with his parents beyond that.
@@RorikH I really wish we got Kylo Ren’s backstory from the original script along the longer scenes of Finn fighting the stormtroopers. I wanted to know WHY Kylo hated his dad and what he thought of his mom and the reason for his fall to the dark side.
I would’ve preferred his origins being showed in EP7 like it was planned than Luke about kill Ben in his sleep before he woke up. I also believe the rise of Kylo Ren comic was absolutely garbage, like the ONLY reason he even turned to the dark side in the first place was literally after his best friend was killed by the main honcho Knight of Ren dude.
If that comic did anything, it was go in that direction TLJ had shown us, that Kylo is reluctant to do certain things to succeed in order to get the audience or the reader to sympathize with him.
Like him having second thoughts about killing his mom, him telling Rey that he is a monster or him being nervous and having second thoughts about joining the Knights of Ren after he was tasked with killing his former friends.
Like I DON’T FUCKING CARE, stop making me care about the villain who was NEVER sympathetic in the first place until the second movie of the trilogy. Kylo rejected his dad’s call to go home with him and see his mom again to stay in the darkness to gain power.
He killed his dad after rejecting his father’s love. His chance of being a sympathetic villain ended after the killing of his father.
We didn’t need to feel sympathetic for him in the second movie or the comic. If anything the comic proved that thanks to TLJ Kylo honestly doesn’t deserve to be called a Sith.
@@windghost2 What I don't get is what J.J.'s vision for Kylo was. In TFA he has him reject his dad's offer of redemption and murder him, but apparently he always wanted to do a redemption arc???? What gives?
@@RorikH I think he just said that to appease certain people
Kylo's problem was that he failed to be either sympathetic or intimidating. He's established as quite evil with the massacre and violating Poe and Rey's minds, and his murder of Han and brutalizing Rey and Finn makes him irredeemable. But at the same time, he throws tantrums and loses every confrontation with Rey. Finally, he's poorly motivated. His turn to the Dark side is explained as "oh, Snoke/Palpatine did it" without really explaining how. They immediately assumed the audience would treat him as Vader without actually giving him Vader's character. Vader is pure intimidation in the first two films of the trilogy, and then is finally shown to be a pathetic tool to feel sorry for. Even then, Vader's redemption in the OT isn't about Vader, it's about Luke's closure with his identity. Redeeming Kylo has nothing to do with Rey: The Last Jedi even gives Rey much needed character growth by making her assume Kylo was redeemable and was proven wrong. It taught Rey her own limitations much like Luke's attack on Vader.
It's the boy who cried wolf: we're teased with his redemption, then he murders Han. We're teased with his redemption again, then he negs and attacks Rey. In both cases, it came off as a trap. Abrams loves to tease without actually providing content, and Johnson loves his red herrings to surprise people with twists.
That's the problem: Abrams and Johnson are incompetent. They make a villain that is odious but not threatening, and thus make one that isn't worth good either as a villain or antihero. "He's evil and Loses" was the climax of 7, a mistake followed by 8 repeating it; VII killed off the redemption, VIII nailed the coffin down, then then IX tried to exhume the body through 6 feet of earth and give it CPR
I understand the idea of a growing threat; however, this was not executed at all. Abrams needed to suppress his need for mysteries and make Snoke stronger; thus Snoke would be the main villain of 7 and Kylo his sidekick. 8 would see Kylo usurp power, and 9 would have him at his strongest. Each trilogy is about escalation of stakes, but that's not executed well; yes, Kylo does better than before against Rey in his next two confrontations, but he is only in command of the First Order for two scenes: the battle of Krait, and the attack on Mustafar. That's it.
I totally agree that audience expectations for villain redemption and the attempts to make Kylo sympathetic in the first two films really derailed things. If the red herring is too strong, the twist is too weak. In Episodes 7 and 8, Kylo Ren is conflicted in the first part, then does something irredeemable in the last. And it doesn't help that he's poorly motivated: Abrams couldnt' think of a good reason, Johnson gave him the weakest of excuses, so his character isn't actually that well defined.
Absolutely true about the redemption; it was forced in every way. The last two films pretty much teased redemption then denied it, but the teasing convinced people who arte just used to and obligated to this trope, so the twists were un-twisted.
Hit the nail on the head about pandering! The failure of the sequels is the pandering fan service. Disney and Lucasfilm were so afraid for alienating the fanbase they went straight for pandering and never stopped. Instead of incorporating criticisms from the last film, they incorporated what people liked from last film. Instead of listening to criticism of their own films, they listened to criticism of the prequels. It's purely mercenary, and that never tells a good story.
His character, while having a lot of intriguing potential, was done so poorly.
A really waste of Driver's talent as an actor.
What the ST needed was Kylo in the Dark, Finn in the Light, with Rey being the conflicted one with a fall and redemption.
Debate or no debate, Kylo Ren was a weak vilain from the very beginning. The truth is like a tiger, it doesnt need to be protected.
Amen.
If there at some point was the idea that Rey would also be a Skywalker and that had been used, or if there had been at least one other second-generation Skywalker, Leia's or Luke's child, even if only as a supporting character, Kylo never being redeemed would maybe have sat better with all fans - well, except some shippers who love the idea of a redeemed bad boy in general, not for just this story. The idea of a family line completely dying often seems to be something that easily bothers people in general at least a bit when it's their own or that of somebody they like or venerate, real or imaginary. Perhaps because no matter what we think on the surface the idea of having that only type of immortality we can have for sure - a continuing bloodline with children, if not yours then those of your siblings' or at least those of cousins' - may actually be kind of a biological need.
So, when these sequels not only seem to make all the struggles and sacrifices the heroes of the OT and the prequels made pretty much void, all of them just dying without even leaving anybody who might one day redeem the family and their significance makes the whole thing feel even more hollow.
You know what would have been awesome? If Rey joined Kylo at the end of Episode VIII and Finn became Luke's new apprentice.
Man, I wanted that to happen so bad as I felt more attached with finn's journey than Rey's.
@@kimberlygaugh4085 Same here. Rey could have been that sidekick or something.
@@jacquelyynorgana77 yep! And what I thought what also was compelling about Finn's journey (if he was to train under Luke & be a jedi) was that he also wanted to free the slaves! And where have we heard that before?? From Anakin in episode 1. Only Finn doing it may have been a likely reality. And we could've seen him struggle with the darkness a little as well.
How about a dark Empire thing where Luke joined Sidious and Leia saved him with the power of love? They could do that with Finn and Rey.
@@Tareltonlives Yeah, that would work BETTER than Dark Empire.
The First Okiro is quickly becoming my favorite Star Wars TH-cam channel, second only to HelloGreedo
Love your content.
Hearing youtubers shit on the sequels is cathartic at this point
Same!
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Rey shouldn’t have been a character to begin with.
The arcs of Finn and Ben were good enough.
Damn. It would’ve been nice to see Finn as a Jedi.
I agree. Finn and Kylo had a stronger parallel
The real problem was making the grandson of Darth Vader into a darksideer at all.
He shouldnt have been connected to the skywalker family.
I mean it happened in the legends expanded universe as well. Ben Solo is basically a fusion of Jacen Solo and Ben Skywalker from the comics.
Awesome breakdown! I'm definitely subbing!
This story was told sooo much better in the EU with Jacen and Jaina
I was disappointed he got redeemed tbh. Liked his story seeing his development as a full fledged villain. Contrast too Rey's journey as a hero.
Loved his mask and red cross guard lightsaber.
I’ve seen that interview but man now that you bring it up... He was kinda set up as a reverse Vader.
But maybe the redemption plot could have still worked if, say, the shot of Kylo after he stabs Han clearly shows him instantly regretting it; his eyes are wide, his hand is shaking, even he looks shocked that he actually did what he did. In the fight after he easily bests Finn and Rey, so at the start of TLJ Snoke would be praising him for finally fully embracing the dark, but the killing of Han would actually only make the pull to the light stronger because it forces him to face how much he still loves his family. He would turn back maybe as early as the climax of SW8, maybe with the encouragement of other characters but mostly because he finally realizes that he’s only deluding himself, instead of because of one person, especially not one he barely knows.
I guess I’m just too attached to the character though. This did make me consider “reverse Vader + Kylo dies” as yet another viable route for my theoretical reboot fanfic though. But still, due to the setup and backstory I envisioned for him, I guess I just never really wanted to consider that possibility because this trilogy would be the end of the saga and it might be too bittersweet of a tone to end on, what with Luke’s hopeful philosophy being proven wrong with a rather cynical “hopeless people are hopeless anyway, deal with it” message. I guess I don’t have to go with my current idea for his backstory, but I like it way too much. Still, it’s definitely a path that should be considered.
Not very relevant, but gotta say, brrrr, “Vader killing Luke in Return of the Jedi” sent chills up my spine for some reason. I guess I can just imagine the look of despair on Luke’s face, his love and compassion pitifully cut down, as he’s faced with the endless, cruel reality that is the dark side, croaking out “Father, why...” as he stares through the eyes of his father’s mask with wide, betrayed, even tearful eyes, Vader watching his son fall to the floor like Padmé after she was choked, Palpatine cackling as the screen cuts to black... It’s depressing but because I like to torture myself I kind of want to see that as a fan film or animation or something.
So glad I found this channel, your thesis and arguments are precise, informative, and are backed by plenty of evidence. And fuck yeah Luke Skywalker is my hero too.
1:25 Come on Down!
Great video
My one caveat to Kylo committing patricide (the ultimate evil) is this. Han was probably a terrible father. He left Leia at some point, leaving Ben as well, arguably triggering the childhood trauma and deep resentment that eventually turned him to the dark side. I know TROS created this illusion that Han and Ben had a great relationship (like how?), but anyway…that’s my headcanon.
Also Han shot first
I think Han only left after Ben fell …and I also believe it was leia who chose to send him away rather than Han (although I will need to recheck )
So really really if you were going to point fingers it would be at her
i think people forget han walked out on his family i doubt anyone could pull kylo back to the light. han literally is a dead beat dad which is sad idk why they made it happen but han is a bad father he was absent from kylos life and luke lost memory of the original trilogy and was replaced with greg the milk sipping bum from tatooine and tried to kill kylo instead of trying to help him kylo cant be redeemed but i personally can feel for kylo
I don’t. They made the OT characters into abusive and neglectful losers to make Kylo look sympathetic
The biggest issue I have with Kylo Ren is him being the villain at all. Like, what is the reason exactly? We are given nothing within the movies other than Snoke is seducing him to the Dark Side, but like, what was so enticing about the Dark Side that Ben felt he needed to join it? When it comes to Darth Vader, yes, in the Original Trilogy, we were never given a reason beyond that he was seduced by the Dark Side, but then when the Prequels come around we see that Anakin wanted more from the Jedi than they were offering because of their lack of trust in him, their rules, and he wanted power to keep promises he cannot make like saving his mother and his wife from death, we see what it is that makes Anakin want to go to the Dark Side. He has a desire for more than he is being given and he believes he has what it takes to do more than with the power he already possesses. With Kylo Ren, in the movies (I know there's other stuff that explains it, that's like everything with the Sequels, it's all explained in books and comics), I have no idea why Ben wants to join the Dark Side because clearly his family loves him dearly. Now granted, Luke was skeptical of Ben, but that was already after Ben had been conversing with Snoke, and when Ben awoke to see Luke in his room with his lightsaber drawn but no longer ignited, Ben acted in self-defense and then his transformation was seemingly complete until the rest of these movies played out, but what about before then? He's obsessed with Vader, but he's clearly been told the story and Anakin should even be able to speak to Ben as a ghost. Was it really just power that he wanted? Does he philosophically disagree with everything his family stood for because the Galaxy has been in a state of flux since the Empire was defeated and that's why he joins the First Order? What would make him do that though if Anakin can actually show up to explain himself? What about his life made him want to turn and then stay that way? I really don't understand why Ben wants to be Kylo Ren, but whatever, moving on...
I never got the feeling that Kylo Ren would turn to the light in The Last Jedi, but I do enjoy that he is conflicted about the fact that he killed his father and then can't bring himself to do the same to his mother. He doesn't want to accept that what he did was wrong and that his father loved him, there's something he keeps trying to justify about it. Perhaps he resented Han a bit more, he could have been less present in Ben's life because he showed abilities in the Force and that has never sat well with Han, I'm not sure, but it's still his dad and so he regrets that. He pushes forward though now that he has made that choice, and I do like him sticking with the Dark Side. Everything he does in The Last Jedi is to try and get Rey to join him, I never once believed Rey was actually convincing him to walk away. And in fact I'm not even sure if he knows Leia survived the attack on the bridge, which is why when he kills Snoke, it's so that he can rise to power, not to free himself from the Dark Side, there's nothing left for him to go back to. You get the sense that in IX that he's surprised that his mother contacted him and she has been alive this whole time. I think that the one big thing that really could have redeemed Kylo Ren is Leia, and there is clearly some special bond between the two that goes beyond a mother and a son. They clearly had a much better relationship in my eye than he did with Han, it's just a shame we never got to see flashbacks of his life or something to better show his dynamic with his family and his reasons for turning to the Dark Side.
Now I find that fight on the Death Star wreckage to be pretty terrible, Rey is the antagonist that keeps forcing that fight on, and she's the one that makes the killing blow only because Kylo was distracted by his mother calling out to him, but I do find his redemption to be one of the best scenes in that whole wreck of a movie. To me, I see that Leia calling out to him is her big act of love to let him know that everything he's done, she forgives him for it. She could tell that the bridge was about to explode but it wasn't him that pulled the trigger, that she knew he hesitated, that despite feeling like she couldn't do anything more to help him, she was going to try one last time while she still had life. So for me, I see Ben and Leia as being square. If he knew Leia was in that base on Crait, I could see him not doing things the same way as they played out, it really is until she calls out to him that all is forgiven. So when he is talking to his memory of Han, it's his act of self forgiveness. The parallels with the seen in The Force Awakens are really quite nice in my opinion. So many people seem to not understand that scene because "How can Han come back?" or "Ben's redemption was really quick," but in my opinion, it's a beautiful representation of what it's like when you continue to have that conversation in your mind after a situation has gone terribly and you play out different scenarios because you have hindsight on how to fix it. That scene is Ben's reconciliation with whatever bad blood he had with his father. He has gone so far down the dark path that he isn't sure he has what it takes to accept the consequences for his actions, to make amends to people he has wronged, but in the end, his dad would have supported him because Ben was loved. Whatever bad blood the two had in the past, it didn't matter, if his dad was around, he would have loved Ben regardless, and he finally comes to terms with that fact. I find that scene to be really beautiful.
I was never asking for Ben to have a redemption, but since we got it, I'm actually very pleased with how it was done. It doesn't fix a lot of things wrong with the Sequel Trilogy (like how his redemption kind of becomes worthless because it's all Rey's story from that point on), but in my opinion, the scene of his redemption is a highlight.
I wanted both Rey and Kylo on the dark side
Then Finn can save her.
The sequels were a mess, start to finished, I just don't care about Ep9, I was done with the sequels after Ep8, that was such a horrible story, so frickin lazy and poorly executed, about the only way I'll see that again is when the lego game of the "Skywalker saga" comes out, even then I'll get that when its on sale, because Disney & Lucasfilm do not deserve money for their total mismangement of the trilogy, 'If fail to plan, are !' Benjamin Franklin, that quote rings so true of Lucasfilm & Disney in regards to Star Wars, they totally messed up, they should of used Geroge's treatments as a basis for the trilogy, then things might not been such a mess!
true, after Episode 8, the hype was dead. i tiered to care about 9, but i just don't. not the for the story, maybe the characters a bit. maybe ill try to watch it after i forget my rage for what they did to Finn.
I already heard the argument "Ben had the chance to come back, and he refused it". Yes, it's true. But why? Because he wanted power?
Ben Solo had heard his parents arguing about him since childhood. He did not want to become a Jedi, but his mother did, afraid that if Luke did not train him he might become like their father, Vader. So he became his uncle's apprentice, not really wanting it in the first place and being cut off from his mother and father - thinking that Leia saw him as a monster and Han did not do anything to support him. Then one night, Luke panicked looking into his nephew's mind. Apart from the fact that it's very intrusive to look into a sleeping person's mind: what Luke saw was Snoke's evil whispers. And instead of offering solace, he considered that simply killing the boy would be the easiest way out. It was only a moment of panic, but Snoke had told Ben over and over for years that Luke was not to be trusted. Seeing him with the ignited light saber was like a long-feared nightmare coming true. Ben escaped, leaving the temple to burn (and if you read the comics The Rise of Kylo Ren, which are officially canon, you learn that he didn't even cause the fire himself).
Now: where was he supposed to go, believing that Luke was dead? To his parents, saying "Oh, sorry, I killed my uncle, his apprentices and his entire life's work, I'm sure you don't mind?" So he fled to the Knights of Ren and to Snoke, because they offered him a place to be when he had nowhere to go.
In order to keep him on the Dark Side Snoke tortured him for years, that's what is meant by his "training". Then he ordered him to commit the ultimate sin of patricide (calling it a "test"), to trap him in the Dark Side for good. And yet, when father and son met, it was clear to see that Ben still felt love for Han. He openly told him that he felt torn apart and pleaded for his help. He gave Han the light saber and Han immediately understood what was going on: that he was about to be killed by Ben. He did the only thing he could do - forgive him right in that moment. So, the patricide did not push Ben to the Dark for good, the trauma was the first step back for him.
Rey also offered him to come with her. Again, what was he supposed to do? He was the Supreme Leader of the First Order and he had been the right hand of the former Supreme Leader for years. The Resistance was under the command of his mother. Again: was he supposed to simply go to her and say, "Oh mom, sorry I killed dad"?
You can't simply "come back" when you have committed so many crimes. Anakin was in the same situation. After having killed Mace Windu his fate was sealed. He could no longer be with the Jedi, Palpatine was the only one he could turn to. When Luke offered him to go with him he was as brave as he was foolish: what should Darth f***ing Vader should have done with the Rebellion?! Join them and say "Sorry I was the scourge of the galaxy for twenty years, but now I'm a changed man I promise"?! Vader turned because he knew that to do that he would have to sacrifice himself for his son. He paid for his redemption with his life, and he was willing to pay that price.
Darth Vader was the only male figure Ben still could identify with, because he had no clue what it actually meant to be Darth Vader. Ben never mentioned Anakin. Obviously he had no clue about hhis grandfather's terrible fate, the enormous price he had paid for his power. Ben only saw the power of the mask; he never saw the withered, burnt, sad old man beneath the mask the way Luke did.
No one had ever encouraged Ben to be himself, to go his own way, instead of trying to copy someone (Luke, Vader) or become his old self, which was what Rey expected - and Ben couldn't go back to being who he was, he had been Kylo Ren in the meantime, a man who committed many horrible crimes. All that expected him, had he "come back", was being put to trial and most probably sentenced to death or a lifetime of prison.
Ben Solo was trapped by Snoke / Palpatine, exactly as Anakin had been trapped. One wanted to save his wife and unborn child, the other wanted to save his own life. There is nothing inherently evil about both. You can't simply be or become "good" by making one choice. - Thank you for the food for thought, although I strongly disagree.
So Kylo Ren only wants to save his own life? This is an action pretty egoist, and only left him as a bad person, stop dreaming, Kylo didn't deserve any arc of redemption. And I'm the only one who thinks like that, Adam Driver thought exactly the same. The things that he did and Anakin did were totally opposite. Anakin wanted to save Padme's life, Kylo only wanted to be more recognized than his grandfather, If Kylo was more like Zuko, ok, we can argue, but the things like Kylo did were evil.. And having Rey wanted to save him, it feels so force, Rey didn't have any commitment with him, he killed her father figure, he almost killed her friend, he kidnnaped her. And in the second one he blamed her for something that he did (which left him as a coward), why Rey should or must risk everything to came back to the light someone who did what Kylo did?
I only like Kylo because Adam Driver is such a good actor
Adam carries the character 100%
Tho I like TFA Kylo
@@TheFirstOkiro Imo Adam Driver's acting imbues Kylo Ren with so much character that is unfortunately contradictory to the narrative we are presented of his character. Nothing shown in the movie really warrants the emotional depth of Driver's acting, which is why I feel that so many people were fooled that Kylo Ren was a good character.
I agree, but I will say it bugged me a little that they didn't cast someone who looks a little more like Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford
@@rainyrouge5123 I actually do kinda think he looks a little like both of them. Or at least I see common traits from them both
The way Adam Driver talks about JJ Abrams 'isolating' the original trilogy definitely hits something that's always bugged me about the sequel trilogy- the aversion to talking about the prequel trilogy, beyond the bare minimum of 'a Jedi trained Vader' or 'the dark side is a path to many abilities some would consider... unnatural.' The prequels/clone wars era thrived best when it highlighted the ways that systems and people with good intentions could be corrupted and twisted. Finn and Kylo have flashes of this in TFA as they manifest questions of nature versus nurture, but with TLJ, the attempts to add gray morality come down as heavy-handed preaching aimed at making our trio of heroes and the audience seem like naïve children, and with TROS, there was so much rushing/rewriting/meddling from DLFL that there wasn't really any room for nuance, even with Kylo's supposed redemption.
And there could still have been nuance to him, even if he wasn't going to get redeemed. There was obviously a clear potential of his instincts to gaslight and attempt the kind of seductions that Palpatine worked on Anakin, and he could have kept trying those tactics on Finn as well as Rey, pushing the two of them to rely on each other more for reassurance that they can fight him off and not be like him, but... nope.
tbf, people on the internet loving the prequels only really started after the sequels started.
@@shrilleth I mean, I’m pretty sure the prequels resurgence predates the sequels, again, though primarily thanks to Clone Wars rather than the movies themselves.
Huh I never picked up on that.
@@shrilleth I always loved the prequels
That is absolutely the case: the hatred of the prequels and the assumption that the audience hated the prequels too undermined the sequels. By denying Lucas' style of storytelling, you get Star Wars without a soul or mind.
In my opinion Kylo Ren shouldn’t have a redemption we already have that with Anakin,Kylo should have chosen the darkness in the gecko by his choice instead being manipulated because realistically there is nothing left in the light but death by excruciation or prison he should have been like vanitas from kingdom hearts when Ventus accepted that he chose the Darkness by his choice.
You know, I never really understood why people would get angry at fictional characters until Kylo Ren came around. I never wanted to see a fictional character painfully die as much as him. He keeps doing horrible things, and yet all the characters seem convinced he's a good guy deep down, and characters who do far lesser evils are never given a chance at redemption while he is given plenty, always turning them down. The films could have killed him off by shoving him feet first through a meatgrinder and that still would have been better than what he deserved.
The best thing Kylo Ren did was die.
Instead of Iconic. they ended the trilogy with a splat.
Found this bc of Lily, and idk what I thought your voice would be like, but it's way deeper than I expected. Welp, about to check this one out and possibly subscribe
My voice was under the weather that day of recording lol
Makes it much deeper. Lily is the best
Agree with your video. If Kylo was reverse Vader we could have more story about Knights of Ren.
It wasn’t a waste of time, as Kylo managed to kill Snoke thanks to that.
It was a thing that Rey was learning in her arc in TLJ : she needed to stop wasting time to change a person who keeps making the wrong choices.
It’s not the ending everyone knew. We didn’t know yet that Kylo Ren had a tragic backstory with Luke.
Excellent video!
Anakin joined the Sith because he felt like he didn't have any other choice. Kylo Ren always knew he had a choice, he just didn't care.
the problem I have is.. Kylo doesn't deserve a redemption arc because he WANTED to be evil.
Exactly, he made his choice in TFA and Rian should've stuck with it instead of asking the question of redemption for Kylo again only to subvert expectations.
People, especially, Reylos, started to romantize his character, I'm not going to say that they are 100% the guilties but Reylos contributed to make Kylo's character a waste of time. Kylo Ren doesn't deserve redemption, he didn't do nothing to deserve it.. !ohh! And he wasn't showed kindenss with Rey either.
JJ told Adam that Kyle's arch was the opposite direction of Darth Vaders like seriously...how is this even close
*This guy killed Han Solo, I’m sorry but there’s no getting over that fact for me.*
They simply didn't have a story of their own to tell... all of the sequels only existed to be a continuation of the original trilogy for the sake of it. The sequels looked great, had good actors in and the production values are very high, but the complete lack of writing and originality meant that it ultimately had no meaning. The pure fact that there was no plan is a testament to this fact. A lost opportunity and a crying shame.
Kylo is a mess from start to finish. Even In TFA. Kylo flips motives frequently or pursues his goals in illogical ways. Last Jedi and RotS do the same to his character. Honestly he could make any decision and it would make equally as much or no sense at the same time and it would equally not make sense with most of Kylo's backstory
Exactly. He's poorly and inconsistently motivated
Seriously! After TFA, I was pumped as shit for Kylo's character! Everyone was hounding him for being a vulnerable, weak-willed character but I was fine! Because there was this air of promise. That that shit would change! Snoke basically promising the audience that our main villain's training is not yet complete (before just tossing that out in the next movie to make Snoke a typical abusive boss). Kylo Ren... a flawed, conflicted man... *steadily* becoming the big bad he was meant to be. I was up for it. So him killing Snoke and dominating Hux (while still not having total control of the situation because of his inherit flaws) was good with me in TLJ. Honestly, if there was ANYTHING I actually liked about TLJ was them finally just putting him in the top spot. Sure, I would've like the journey to that point to be more interesting, but I was taking what I could get.
By TROS... I dunno. I kinda lost hope. I was at first kinda enjoying myself by having scenes where Kylo is chasing Rey and Finn like the good ol' days. Commanding his armies and shit. (All I had to do was pretend Palpatine didn't exist for that portion of the movie). But they had totally broken the character. He no longer had any agency. It says something that him defecting from the First Order, despite being the Supreme Leader, doesn't change anything at all. Shit doesn't fall apart for them. The Knights of Ren have no issue turning on him. Everything just proceeds as normal. It's no big deal.
Ugh... this trilogy hurts my insides.
I could listen to your voice forever 💜
You'd have to bring back a new villain to replace Kylo even if he never redeemed himself. He's gotten his ass kicked in every fight with rey, and scenes like him smashing his helmet and screaming "MOORE!" Didn't help either. An Hux is total joke now.
TLJ really did ruin the sequels
No, you really wouldn't have to. In the first place, they didn't fight in TLJ at all, and even in the TROS we DID get, he beat Rey in their rematch until Leia interfered and distracted him (which I still think is a perfectly written death for him, too bad they screwed it up). And that's because TLJ explained why he lost and also showcased how strong he actually is. Vaguely, I grant you, but it was still an explanation.
Snoke explains that killing Han took a bigger toll on him than he let on and left him unbalanced and weaker than he could be. You could just as easily have kept him on the path of no redemption while keeping this idea. It adds complexity while also driving home what a piece of shit he is. Especially if it ultimately served to showcase Rey's biggest flaw and biggest mistake of foolishly assuming that she had the ability to save him even after his ultimate betrayal of Han. I mean, that's pretty much what happens in TLJ anyway, but they don't play that up enough.
Anyway, by the end of TLJ, he has shed all of that inner turmoil and become resolute in himself. People tend not to focus on the fact that Rey was having trouble while engaging one guard at the same time Kylo was taking on multiple guards all around him because they're too busy crying about the fact that she "saves" him from the one that grappled him and thus that makes him weak, which is moronic. At that point, she is clearly not showcased to still be above him. The stage is thus reset for their rematch.
Even if TLJ stayed exactly the same, making a good follow-up with Kylo as the main villain was not impossible. In fact, it would have been dirt simple, but they pussied out and backpedaled and made even worse decisions. There was no need at all for a bigger-er bad guy than him. The First Order at the height of their power serves that need just fine.
@@damkylan3 yeah I just can't see that. For most of the fight with the guards, Rey is fighting several of them at once and occasionally saving Kylo during his fight with one guard. Then right after that he passes out from trying to match up with Rey. And they even seem to retcon force awakens. That blaster shot that supposedly wounded him was never mentioned, there's no lines about him spending time in a bacta tank and he doesn't even have a scar when he's seen shirtless. After this movie I started viewing Kylo like Eggman, Dr neo cortex or Buggy the clown. A comedic villain who's plans backfire massively and he constantly has to beg the heroes to help them fix his mistake. You can slowly build up a villain until they're a real threat, but I'd advise against letting the main character kick their ass six ways from Sunday in every one of their encounters before they become effective. Or at least make it a team effort. Have all the main characters team up to barley best Kylo. Chewbacca, Rey, Finn, and Poe. Then have snoke say they should've been easy to kill for a sith since none of them have had his kind of training. That also makes for a good arc for Rey she always needed a team to take on Kylo but at the end she's strong and confident enough to go one-on-one.
TFA really did ruin the sequels
@@Tareltonlives I disagree.
Kyle was just a hot mess
Imagine a world where in TLJ, after being spurned by Luke, Rey took Kyleo's offer and turned to the dark side and the climax is Finn (Jedi in training) redeeming her and defeating Kyleo.
Still no clue how to save Snoke though...
"Still no clue how to save Snoke though..."
Essence transfer ? He was plagueis all along and after kylo killed him he transferred to hux and is in turn weaker since the host is weaker but can fight with his lightsabers .
@@stormbringer2840 Maybe he becomes Kylo though.
@@windghost2 it would be too OP that he would be able to take over anyone. At that point kylo is supposed to have strong mental defenses .
But if we go that way I suppose that in a moment of clarity kylo in the 9 would commit seppuku with his lightsaber .
I wanted Ben Solo to be redeemed. I didn't want the legacy of both the Skywalkers and the Solos to be one of darkness. Though, now that I've heard about the original reverse Vader idea, I kinda wish they had just done that. That would have actually subverted expectations.
I felt like Kylo's TLJ arc wasn't about Kylo, it was about highlighting Rey's selfishness and desperate need for an identity and how this might pull her to the dark side.
I was hoping TROS would see her just unravelling psychologically and doing some shady shit, since she failed to find the identity she seeked both with Luke and with Kylo.
And Kylo being a complex character you can't save was kind of the point in TLJ to me. He's your abusive asshole boyfriend who actually has childhood trauma and some appealing character traits, but you should still dump his ass despite that because he's an abusive POS.
He was an interesting character, but, like everything else in this trilogy, lacked deeper content.
This idea of Reverse Vader is a nice one, but he needed to have reasons for that. Why he fell to the Dark Side? RJ could not come with a good reason, so he made a poor one. I think that Kylo should be something like Jacen Solo was in Legends: he grown by the side of a Jedi and a politician, and would be nice if he saw all the suffering in the galaxy while travelling with Luke. And he had different ideas. Democracy was not a thing for him, totalitarianism was. They could go with something like: Vader's spirit haunted him all his life. I would made this like Revan in KOTOR, so Anakin spirit was split in half: The light side became a ghost, while the dark side was attached to his helmet (that could even be an explanation to why Anakin was able to become a force ghost in the first place, since he did completed the training like Yoda and Kenobi. So he got rid of his dark side, that got attached to the helmet). Kylo eventually founded this helmet (you could say it was a work of Ren) and was haunted ever since.
This Vader's spirit would slowly turn him, making him embrace the dark legacy of his family. So he would eventually be exactly what Vader was, but without connection to the light like Anakin had.
But of course, if JJ's plan all along was to make the ultimate bad guy, how the fuck he made him lose to an untrained scavanger that lacked any kind of formal training? Does this man do not know anything about making a villain?
I know we all say it but: this trilogy is the biggest waste of potential since the prequels. It's sooooo goddamn heartbreaking.
Finn rejected his given fate and name? The same as Kylo Ren? Seriously, did you pick a topic and just makeup stuff to try to prove it? So many things you state as givens that are just silly.
Yes he did. His name wasn't Finn, his name was FN-2187. He wasn't the independent rebel he is now, he was a Stormtrooper. Finn was literally taken away from his family, and trained as a soldier. This is not a fate he chose, it's a fate forced upon him. When finn decided he didn't want to kill innocents, or be associated with the empire, he rejected his given fate and name to find his own identity.
@@mrkiray7611 Then he became a hero the galaxy needed. Or if DLFL didn't interfere in tfa, he would've been a jedi alongside Rey.
@@windghost2 Exactly. I feel like once Finn fell, everything else fell with him. Take a major factor from the structure, and everything else will eventually fail
@@mrkiray7611 Well that's exactly what happened after tfa. He got sidelined in his own trilogy and became a supporting character in the next 2 movies.
He was no longer the male lead or the new face of Star Wars, that went to Kylo. It was a terrible decision on DLFL's part.
If we got more time for tfa to be produced and made as well getting the original script plus some changes. I believe we would've gotten something really special for Star Wars fans. That, and it would've brought in new Star Wars fans that the fandom desperately needed.