I remember when I was first getting into "technical" Minecraft. We spent hundreds of hours spawnproofing the nether and building a giant wither skeleton farm only to find out wolves don't even scare wither skeletons on paper... Later found out this is intended behaviour because "path finding causes lag".
@@profoundgames_and also why microsoft got into a whole lot of trouble back in the day, and why there's to this day windows versions for europe that do not include windows media player, and the whole internet explorer antitrust case also
The paper devs also removed the option to re-enable sand duping with the end portal completly, needing a 3rd party plugin all because of "muh exploits" They only begrudgingly let tnt get duped simply because mojang endorses it/they'd get too much hatemail for it
Bro they're actually the most superiority complex devs in this game. Mojang officially endorses and allows this till either they can find a satisfying way to have renewable sand and block removal or make the current ones fit
I think they just re added it. Or at least they re added whatever "allow-unsafe-end-portal-teleportation" is. I wish I had known how bad paper is for the world of redstone before I decided to use it.
this as well as void trading. void trading isnt even a dupe, its just expediting an in game process to get materials just like literally any other farm. paper devs view this as a dupe though and dont let you config it at all.
I didn't realize that most of the things that annoy me about building technical farms on public servers in general... are just things that annoy me about paper.
@@zern7617 sure bud just beg the server managers to mess with config when they likely left paper on default config _because_ they don't wanna mess with config
@@rigen97 Yes, do that. If they don't want to edit their config, your playthrough being effected is not paper's fault, it's the servers fault. It's like me complaining about a feature in a server that stops me from duping. It doesn't make sense bro.
@@zern7617 I honestly doubt some random Minecraft server admin will give a damn about 1 player having problems with their server settings, and honestly, why should they? You're treating them like a shitty game dev instead of some teenager/20 something who just runs a Minecraft server 'cause they can. They likely don't care, especially if Paper was their go to, and yes, it IS Paper's fault for having these settings on by default, if they wanted it to be like "VANILLA with mods" they wouldn't have ADDED settings that ALTER VANILLA on by default. The creators are just gatekeeping game mechanics because they don't like them, essentially moderating people's playthroughs, which is kinda shitty, ngl. Just let people have fun their way.
@@SmilesEdgeworth If the server admin doesn't want to change it, then that's not paper's fault at all, it's the admin's fault. If you don't like it, then don't play their server. Paper is not advertised as "optimized vanilla!!" or something like that. It's advertised as *bug fixed minecraft* It's meant to fix bugs, and it does that, and it also fixes lag sources. If you dislike it and don't want to spend a minute to fix it then cope hard. Blocking bugs is gatekeeping people from bug abusing, it's not a feature. Tnt duping is not being *Patched* by Minecraft because they want to keep it. It's 100% a bug, and if servers want it they can change it in settings in under a minute.
I have a paper trauma ever since I was playing on a minecraft server hosted by a couple of youtubers, and started building a raid farm. I gathered the resources and built the entire thing over the course of a week and then decided to run it. I was very confused when I got bombarded with ravagers and other raid mobs flying all over the place. I spent multiple days trying to find what I did wrong, I ran the schematic verifier multiple times and I found nothing. I asked the server's admin and he told me: "That's strange, we didn't disable raid farming in the settings." Apparently paper calculates entity collisions way different. Since then before I build anything on a server I don't know, I check the version, server type, and mods/plugins of every server I play on.
I feel your pain. Reminds me of how I spent like 6 hours on building a trident farm on top of a river only to not get a single trident from it, because the spawn rate was much lower than in vanilla. And I had to remove some of the things of the farm because the farm server reset every day. So annoying. One question: How do you check the version, server type, and mods/plugins of every server you play on?
Oh my god this reminds me of my friend and I trying to build a raid farm. It took me over a week to find out what's wrong with the server. Paper is pain
this was me im a bedrock tech player recently moved to java and used paper to run a server with friends and sent the better part of 6 months troubleshooting my builds to find out paper is the issue. im on fabric now and it fixed 80% of my issues (the other 20% me being dumb lols)
At one point in time, they even had the audacity to write "Vanilla Compatible" or "No-Compromise performance" and "Non-Intrusive and not changing gameplay" or something like that on their front page, I can't remember what exactly but it was not worded in an evasive manner in the slightest. They have since completely updated their website and removed the text, but that's such a scummy way to advertize your software, especially because of it I have had people telling me it's the redstoners fault for not testing their contraption and that it 100% can't be papers fault because of that one line. People genuenly believed and told me in my face that paper is exactly like vanilla but with plugins and does not affect any gameplay. It does. And I'm mad exactly because of that. Paper is not for small SMP servers, fabric or vanilla is, paper is for those big mini-game servers that don't care about vanilla survival minecraft, that already change everything about how the game is played.
The tagline you are talking about is "Paper is the next generation of Minecraft servers, compatible with Spigot plugins, offering uncompromising performance." Now, it depends on what "uncompromising" they are talking about: If they are talking about compared to vanilla, then yes, it is very misleading, but they may also be talking about Spigot, which is what Paper is based upon and Paper exists because Spigot, compared to Paper, has way more performance issues and the project is very stagnant since the whole DMCA debacle that happened a few years back. And Spigot also has game breaking changes too, and CraftBukkit also has game breaking changes too... it is all game breaking changes from the top to the bottom because the software needs to break things, sometimes to make performance better, other times to support plugins.
It's fully configurable. The goal of paper is to fix bugs. You can't complain that paper fixes bugs when that's the point. Don't like it? Disable the patch. Simple. But oh, you complain.
@@zern7617 I literally CAN'T disable the patch, it's not an option to do that. Paper does not provide you the options to disable some things, did you even watch the video?
@@Hlebuw3k > I literally CAN'T disable the patch, it's not an option to do that Fork the project and remove the patch, this is what zern is talking about
The thing is, fabric isn't super scalable unless you get into instancing, which is super advanced stuff. I run a pretty large public superflat server, and we need things like TNT duping, raid farms, sand duping, etc due to the superflat limitations. While it can be tricky to get paper to accommodate these features, it's certainly not impossible. Meanwhile, running fabric simply isn't an option when 100 players might be on at once. I think the points you made in this video really only apply to servers with like maximum 40 people playing at any given time. 0-50 players: Just use fabric 50-400 players: Use paper 400+ players: Use fabric with instancing
@@Dajuhf Basically it's a technique that extremely popular servers like 2B2T and Hypixel use where you split one Minecraft world across a bunch of different servers. On the client side it's pretty seamless, but really you're being juggled around to a bunch of different servers while moving around in the world so that the playercount on any given instance never gets too high.
Yeah, that is the thing, it might be annoying if you don't have a lot of players but if you do, those "little" improvements or things that break functionality add up
Strong agree, fabric might work for smaller/private servers, but anything above 30 players and paper/purpur is the best by miles. This video really gives off a lot of it's own elitism for private/smaller technical server in an ironic way, when a large majority of players aren't interested in that, and prefer to play servers with 100s of players online instead. Why should paper go out of their way to accommodate such a seemingly hostile minority, when the majority of players and servers rely on many of its changes to the game to function without performance issues?
Mojang: As the developers of the game, we're intentionally leaving in TNT duping in the game, because there's no real alternative in many use cases. We'll consider removing TNT duping when we replace the mechanic with viable alternatives that fit with vanilla Minecraft. We understand the value these bugs add to niche communities, and we're working to make sure they stay in the game until we can dedicate more time to improving those areas. Paper devs: We're removing things the primary game developers have patched back into the game, and we're not giving you the choice to turn it back on because "it's not our design goal to make bugs configurable". Our server default is to automatically delete any redstone device capable of running on its own. The technical community is in the wrong for refusing to work with us. It's one thing to say "We don't support technical minecraft builds because they depend on mechanics that can cause slowdowns on multiplayer servers, and our primary target audience is large multiplayer servers. We're intentionally removing vanilla features to maintain stable performance on large servers." But that's not what the Paper devs are doing. They're intentionally breaking vanilla features, and then blaming other people when they don't tell them what's broken. That's insane behavior right there. What's interesting is how many technical things Mojang is adding to the vanilla game. At some point, Paper is just going to be so broken for vanilla minecraft that they have to completely give up, and admit it's only for highly modded servers, where you need compatibility with really old legacy mods. I think this video might be the first step in killing Paper's popularity. Paper doesn't run Minecraft. It runs something vaguely similar to minecraft.
Paper's goal is to patch bugs. It patches bugs. That's the point. It functions properly without configuration, you just have to change it if you want to add bugs.
@@zern7617 Mhm, paper removed the ability to make chunk loaders which are an integral part of many builds, and they also took away the option to reenable them. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
@@3_Circles Paper is meant for big servers, not your friend smp server. Its design is fixing security flaws, bugs, and lag. And i'm 99.99% certain that's in the config still
Paper is literally just for public servers that want plugins and dont care about vanilla experience. Use fabric servers instead. Even a simple item filter doesn't work on paper
@@birne_ item sorting works without changing anything. But yes, I have to change a lot of config files to make everything work. If there was a perfect coreprotect alternative for fabric, I would probably switch. But ledger is not great and I don't know of any others so... 🤷
I have fond memories of joining a whitelist server called "The Cave" with the intention of building a big underground cave hub at spawn, only to discover TNT dupers are broken.
@@logon-oe6un Papers goal is to fix bugs. Tnt dupers being blocked is not paper being broken, it's a bug fix. It can be disabled in the servers config.
@@zern7617 Paper defaults to disabling vanilla behavior. Kinda shit philosophy. Watch the video and have your points addressed or skip that and sit in your hole of moding mechanics out of a game and pretending it's equivalent. Hell, mod air strafing out of TF2, for all I care, as long as it's clearly labeled so I can avoid it.
-Paper deletes teams that nobody is on when you restart the server -/spreadplayers is busted -Something with armor stands and pressure plates? I genuinely have no idea what but it broke all my randomizers -God knows what else
@@theworfer27 i was testing a super basic explosive bow a few years ago that worked perfectly on fabric & vanilla, on paper... it tore a hole to bedrock and would have crashed the server with infinite tnt if i didn't type the command to kill the arrow so fast... paper... also the fact that it deletes empty teams is ridiculous
@@theworfer27 about the first setting: That's... wrong? There is a Paper setting to disable saving empty scoreboard teams, but it is set to false by default. Besides, if you are making a map, then why are you using Paper? Paper is meant for server owners that are creating a public Minecraft server with plugins, and in that case, server owners won't use complex command blocks commands and redstone to do their thing, they will use plugins and code to do things.
@@MrPowerGamerBR he is using paper exactly for that... to use said plugins that the server uses (for example for a bedwars map u set the map spawnpoints for said plugin)
not to mention the exploits that only exist in paper like being able to clip through blocks because of its ping compensation, ironically giving more exploits to hackers and removing fun "exploits" from normal players
@@100_JAB If the redstone you're using is based on an exploit or a lag source it will be blocked. this block can be disabled in paper configuration anyway.
well, speaking as a server runner since 2010, its just bukkit -> spigot -> paper is all we had back then especially during the performance issues days in 1.13 and 1.14, and its gonna take a long time before people start realizing fabric is the way to go. i exclusively use fabric now but i know people are addicted to their bukkit plugins and wont switch without an alternative
Paper is the killer of fun. Back in 2017 I played on a server with some school friends, and the guy who ran the server hosted it in paper. I remember being so excited to make a tnt duper to create a batcave, and being immensely disappointed when it didn't work at all. The worst about paper is not knowing what a POS it is, and trying to play the game normally, only to have a rude awakening 20 hours in and quit immediately because it has sucked all the fun out of a sandbox block game.
I don’t spend money on games very much so I don’t pay for servers, I use free server hosting software and I haven’t found a free platform that doesn’t use paper or a paper equivalent.
yh i once tried to protect my moss farm using a chunk loader to provide for a safe shutdown in case the player lost connection while afking, only to discover that chunk loaders have been "fixed" and there is no setting to reenable them.
Yeah they seem way too restrictive, although yeah if chunk loafers worked on the servers I played on there would be thousands and the server would be brought to its knees
@@sirwabaloo7930 thats the kind of thing where if paper was normal you would use a plugin to disable them, or import a list of configs that gets it all done in one so you don't forget anything
@@sirwabaloo7930What the servers of this era have not realized is that instead of building seven of the same farm by yourself it would be 100 times easier to get a bunch of those people on the server together and make a perimiter with them and have farm(s) inside of it. Everyone is so selfish on the servers of this era nobody understands just how easy the game can be.
I've been running a pretty casual minecraft server for years on paper. I've always noticed some... interesting... quirks about it but just always worked around them in one way or another. I've tried fabric in the past when I didn't have much server administration experience, and had some issues that I can't even remember now. I think this video is my sign to try to use fabric again. Thanks for making this video.
Paper is great if you need to run Bukkit API plugins at decent performance. But the fact is, the whole Bukkit ecosystem is absolutely ancient, and breaking vanilla behavior is a default assumption there. So Paper breaking even more vanilla stuff is to be expected.
Totally agreed here- I feel like the video and a lot of the comments here are coming from a very narrow, outsider view of Paper's goals. It isn't intended for a vanilla experience, and it is more-so a stable impl for large-scale plugin-centric servers.
Really great video! I totally feel your pain and criticism regarding Paper and other server modifying plugins. I also wanted to do technical Minecraft stuff on servers I played on, but plugins intervened ruining my hard work. I really appreciate your video and I hope this gets popular. I wanted to build a automatic furnace smeltery using bamboo as fuel, but the hoppers were so slow that the fuel burned before it got replenished by the hopper with new bamboo. For example, I wanted to build a automatic storage system using droppers that transport items up using a clock. And it worked. But then the next day, the clocks got deleted from the plugin and replaced with signs. After rebuilding it again, it also got replaces with signs.
I know your pain, back in the old days I played on a public server where I made a cool treehouse in a jungle and wanted to start automating things. Like I made a water flushing system for collecting wheat crops and started a horse breeding shop where I tried to make the fastest horses. I made a massive racetrack with a timer to determine the speed of the horses. But the server had a pluggin which would yeet tile events after they repeat a certain amount of times so the timer kept breaking. Because the pluggin only worked with tile events I found a workaround which used a sticky piston and redstone block to clock itself and established the timer that way. Then one day I logged on and my whole racetrack had been deleted because the pluggin could still detect tile events originating from the piston clock and reported the events to an admin that tped to my base and couldn't be bothered finding the specific redstone component causing the problem so they just world editted the whole racetrack into oblivion.
Paper is not broken. Paper's goal is to patch bugs. It patches bugs. That's the point. It functions properly without configuration, you just have to change it if you want to add bugs.
@@zern7617you've been defending paper in every comment, and you're not even right. This video clearly shows paper not working right and needing to specifically be worked around without going into files. In the time it takes to change files for paper, you can just go get fabric.
@@Grumpy1174 Then go get fabric. I don't see how it's Paper's fault for blocking bugs and then the user not being able to spend a few minutes configuring to their wants.
Because it is not broken. Author just doesn't want to spend some time in order to configure anything as he WANTS. It takes literally as much time as configuring all these dozens of necessary optimisation mods on fabric/forge.
I wanted to build a automatic furnace smeltery using bamboo as fuel, but the hoppers were so slow that the fuel burned before it got replenished by the hopper with new bamboo.
As someone who has inherited a paper(purpurmc) server for the community I am part of, I feel this everytime I try to do anything complex with redstone. One day I am going to start on the project to migrate to fabric with trying to find all the alternatives for plugins we use or make my own damn ones
Im also an inheritor of the biggest MLP based MC server in my global region, that was always built on paper. And we currently passed full fabric migration, wrote dozens of own mods to make it work great, and surely better, than it ever was.
My breaking point as a bare-metal server admin with Paper is when the TNT dupers my little group wanted to use still didn't work even after I combed through every single relevant setting. Ended up going straight up the chain to Spigot for the increased plugin support without the Paper-levels of god complex. It would be a fun challenge to write a hyper-optimized version of a Minecraft server with Bukkit plugin support, Carpet levels of "just works," etc. - but obviously not a simple task by any means. One of the few programmers I actively look up to recently mentioned one of his "heh this is stupid but might be fun" ideas: a version of Minecraft which stores game data in an IO-optimized format for Direct Storage off an NVME drive. Then, process as much of the game as possible in paralell, be that with threaded CPU work, Nvidia's CUDA paltform, or some other solution (yes, I realize that this would require careful consideration since Minecraft's processing order is tightly defined and a number of the most awesome contraptions rely on this order).
The most disappointing thing for me in my years of playing Minecraft was playing on paper server and trying tnt duping just to realize it doesn't work AND the server deletes the tnt duping blocks.
Paper breaks vanilla functionality on purpose so they can squeeze more performance out. It is an intentional tradeoff. This is doubly so because the stuff it breaks tends to be the more performance intensive stuff. (such as redstone) Like, with paper I can easily handle 5-10 times as many players than I can with vanilla. Fabric offers some good optimization mods, but as a whole fabric (and quilt) has a really subpar ecosystem for managing server-side addons. And then people could still easily break my server with redstone. Of course every person with a small server using paper is silly. Just use bukkit at that point. You don't need to squeeze that performance out if you have less than 10-20 players online.
@@incriptionit absolutely is though, placing a ton of tnt and having to do the processing for 2000 tnt at once will bring a server to its knees, limiting the processing lets people still place down a bunch of tnt but wont reduce the mspt to 0
@@incriptiona few hundred blocks of TNT activated simultaneously or over a handful of ticks can bring a server's TPS down to the low single digits. My point was basically that paper makes changes to the codebase in favor of optimizations. This is done for a specific subset of servers. The vast majority of servers gain no benefit from using Paper. If you use it for anything vanilla-ish and aren't running 50+ people you're just being stupid. Just use bukkit. Hating on paper because people are using the wrong software for their use-case is silly. Hate on the server owner for using paper or play on a server that doesn't use paper.
If you want to play normal multiplayer use the normal server software. You dont need to use spigot or paper. Those have way better perfomance for larger player amounts but need to change/remove features to have a greater perfomance.
@@inx1819 yeah obviously, it just seems like that's really not the norm anymore, not that this is a bad thing, maybe it's easier, idk. what's for sure is that there are way more options nowadays and that it seems a lot of ppl don't know how simple setting up a server by yourself can be
ah yes, i remember running into that EXACT problem with max TNT processed per tick - that shit blew up an entire duper array i had built on a server, it took a friend and i EONS to determine what was wrong, finally we figured it out and asked the server admin to up the limit but goddamn
Oh my god, this explains everything. I tried to run a TNT Cobble Generator on a Skyblock server, and I just could not get it to work, and I could not figure out why. It worked on my single-player world, but just would not work on the server.
I completely agree with most of the things you said. You shouldn't have to adjust configs to be able to play vanilla. and disabling the vanilla functions by default is a big nogo. But for me personally, creating plugins for Paper is much easier/more intuitive than with Fabric. And you don't have to restart the server to adjust a config/install plugins, a reload is usually enough.
I used to be an admin on a small smp server that ran paper and let me tell you trying to deal with all the weird bugs paper creates is miserable. not to mention reporting these bugs often just gets ignored or worse one of the dev's goes on a psychotic rant because you dared to point out that their code was broken.
It's ironic hearing them say "the technical community won't work with us" when I've personally witnessed them ignoring bug reports from technical players. They just want to shift the blame.
@@jeffreyrhoten8652 when those "bug reports" are technical players trying to convince them to reintroduce bugs they've patched in the name of improving performance and removing game-breaking exploits the Paper team is right in ignoring the bug report and banning the user, because their goal is not being compatible with vanilla. Their goal is to be a suitable software for public servers with 50+ concurrent users on 1 instance which are assumed to be hostile and want to exploit, dupe or crash your server at all times. They specifically do not want technical Minecraft contraptions to work because the same bugs that allow them to work also allow bad actors to make the experience hell for everyone else.
Once i was playing minecraft together with my friend, and i built a completely automatic woodfarm. But the tnt duper didnt work and me and my friend spent hours trying to fix that. Meanwhile, we also spend hours trying to break bedrock on the nether roof. Now i know it was probably a paper server. Thank you, now i will check that first bevor building huge farms
@@Chiaros I wasn't talking about paper disabling it, just that it was disabled... he was talking about technical players having issues with servers... it goes beyond just servers running paper.
20:30 I can whole heartedly say that even to those like me who understand very little about redstone, the community providing breakthroughs over and over in the same system which hardly gets updated( ok it gets updated but you get the point) leaves us speechless. Redstone is the most dynamic system in minecraft, and is on par with building atleast imo.
At the same time thats also kind of the beauty of redstone. Its possible to do very complex tasks with a very simple set of components. It doesnt really need as frequent updates. I think its awesome that most of the stuff that gets invented could have been done back in 1.16, but nobody has done it before. You as an individual can actually make a difference. Also, the updates are not as rare as you might think. Slimeblocks, observers, honeyblocks, targetblocks, glazed terracotta, sculk sensors, leafstone, scaffoldings, shulkers, music disk signal strength, allays, copper bulbs, windcharges... all of those are revolutionary components for the technical community.
My friend opened a server for a couple people before and by default the server host has paper installed and I had to ask my friend to change so many settings because everything I like to do the paper devs disabled. I like building farms, going on top of the nether, making block dupe contraptions and none of these work by default. Sure these are fine as options for big servers but they shouldn't be the default settings. I hate pretty much any mod that nerfs or "fixes" or generally just changes anything about the base game that I like, which happens to be a pretty big problem with minecraft and terraria mods.
Thanks for you video and I hope you don't take my comment too personal, I admit it is quite confrontational - but I hope the feedback can still be of use in some shape or another. And I want to preface it to say that I 100% understand being sick of getting the "it no work in spigot" comments and questions - and that this has likely colored the video a fair bit. Either way these are some of things I reacted to while watching you video. The whole segment about deleting the world file while the server is running is probably meant as a workflow thing, where it takes time to "reset", but I find it to be a pretty contrived example, and it's not at all paper exclusive. You would have the same issues with a vanilla server. Having to make workflow adjustments to fit multiplayer isn't a "problem" it's just different. There are likely to be solutions (in this case a worldedit snapshot) that would work just as well. This somewhat applies to the litematica pasting as well. Your modded client _is_ sending a lot of packets, and this is a valid concern for a server that serves potentially untrusted users to have. Using a serverside mod like worldedit to paste your schematic would work here, and is also largely what is happening in a single player world. I don't know if you couldn't get the same problem with an unmodded vanilla minecraft server. Another point here is that you find it obvious that carpetmod can disable explosions, and that you cant find a plugin that does something similar. Firstly a quick google search of "disable tnt explosions bukkit" leads to multiple candidates, wheras finding a solution for vanillla minecraft without already knowing about carpetmod is comparatively similar in difficulty to what you describe. I'd also argue that in the same way you find carpetmods functionality obvious, someone with any bukkit experience would find it obvious that worldguard has this feature (toggleable per region!). WorldGuard being the go-to world protection/anti-griefing plugin. So again this point is an adjustment of workflow or a point mostly about your ignorance of the ecosystem. (This was unfair, see EDIT 1) You keep making a point about restarting the server and calling it "excrutiating", aside from the fact that you might have been able to get away with a /paper reload (I don't know), this sounds so whiny. It takes what 2 seconds? You never have to reload a world in singleplayer? The whole three folders for the three levels is a common complaint but paper actually converts normal worlds into this split level folder structure automatically (unless of course these regions already exist - like if you start the server, generate a new world, then replace the overworld with your vanilla save) "realize we dont have creative noclip" - again a workflow thing that peppers the video with negativity. Though I admit I do not have a readily available alternative for you. Maybe binding a tp switch world to a worldedit tool in this specific case - but that's not really something that encompasses everything you can do with noclip. The gamerule is a real difference and something I would consider a bug as well. Some sleuthing leads me to believe the issue manifests differently on spigot and paper, and also that the vanilla rule is kind of poorly defined - with bug reports about how it also having the sideeffect of not loading chunks being open on the minecraft issue tracker for some time. The feigned awe and surprise at paper implementing a vanilla minecraft feature is again just poor taste imo. We've had tickwarps in bukkit before, back in the forge days with forgebukkit and some tickwarp sleeping mods. It's not up to paper to make technical minecraft tools, it's clearly out of scope and that's fine. It's great that minecraft has it in the base game now. The actual content here - showing how paper differs, trying to find out why and even changing the config files to try work around its limitation is very valuable - and information about this is something a large part of the causal viewerbase probably needs. Server operators should be taking the technichal minecraft compat issues into account when picking their solution! Sometimes for some playerbases the tradeoffs are worth it. An apt example is the mob switch you show off. Paper's mob spawning algorithm is different, and sure it breaks mob switches, maybe even the shulker farm is affected. But the tradeoff is a more uniform and subjectively "fair" mob spawning experience for players. A single mobfarm can't monopolise all the alloted slots and so on. This is a completely valid feature a server operator could want. Even when things break it's almost always the kinds of things that live on the edge of what is possible with redstone, or things that rely on tight timings. The comparison is really more like paper/spigot being a third edition of minecraft that is very similar to java edition and one shouldn't expect technical builds to transfer 1:1 without any adjustments. This is again not an issue for many servers out there because they build their own farms on the server from the start, or don't build that many farms. Autocrafting macros not working as in vanilla is pretty unexpected (aide from ratelimiting), but again this is such a specific example - which many playerbases would even frown upon as something cheating adjacent. So this is not really a downside for many. That being said you are right: paper is an outdated recommendation to make to people who wants a simple vanilla-esque server - fabric performance mods, serverside utlity mods, and even vanilla datapacks can replace really most of paper and the plugins such a server needs. Yet paper is still recommended all the time (maybe because it's not that many years since it was essentially the only possible option for an ok experience - the 1.1.4 - 1.17 era was rough with for example the fish pathfinding and slow chunkloading). Paper's changes have been made for a reason, most of the time lag, often for anticheat, sometimes for plugin-capabilities, and sometimes for just someone's opinion and subjective "bugsmashing". Pretending this is some kind of malice isnt very productive or fair I think. All in all I think papers downsides speak enough for itself, especially in modern times where fabric mods provide a much better alternative. But I think the video could get that across without making some of the workflow complaints and a more neutral tone. I don't think I can really send this video to someone who knows a lot about bukkit and have them convinced their decision is wrong. Because they will see through the points that are more subjective and that sows doubt about your statements in the rest of the video. The second part is much better regarding this. But is still largely just looking at 1:1 ports of builds. There are ideas here like there probably being room for differences in redstone interactions like what you find in bedrock, MCHPRS, vanilla, vs spigot and paper, but also to some degree just differences in minecraft versions. Builds always have to be adjusted and made for each flavor, and that's fine. It's also fine to only play certain flavors. but again describing these differences as "hostile" is something I can't necessarily entirely agree with. I certainly also prefer the vanilla flavor, but technical minecraft players are _very_ hard to please since we depend on a much larger and much more detailed set of features. For servers with custom server-resource packs we don't really see the same complaints from builders having to make adjustments to their palettes (though this isnt nearly as prevalent as paper - so that might also be why). In a similar vein I think technical minecraft players who play on paper servers can also largely adapt to the different rules, you just can't copy and paste a design from someone else (something that might even be good! - but that's a whole other discussion). Maybe it would be nice if the video had a "designing something in paper vs desigining something in vanilla" part for a look at the differences here. Just an idea. Again thanks for the video and the opportunity for this discussion EDIT 1: I see you've now responded that world guard explosion protection deletes the tnt before explosion, so that explains that
I talked to people in the Papermc discord server and I see you do the same here. People see this video as a direct attack on Papermc and thus take every point of the video as such. Cubicmetre having a hard time because he needs to restart the server every time is evidently a skill issue. When he comments on a clip as long as maybe 5 seconds saying he can't fly through blocks this isn't somehow a complaint to paper, of course paper doesn't support carpet mod, They are entirely different ways of modifying the game. But don't take this on an attack to paper this is more like putting a fish out of water, water being where all your convenient mods are. This video is barely a video for Papermc but rather a video for his viewers that might not need paper and might choose to then run fabric for their technical builds. I definitely see a lot of hate to papermc and I have experience from where it comes from myself. If you look at some of the top comments on this video you'll see people absolutely burnt after playing on smaller paper servers and all that hate goes to papermc. Personally I think papermc fills a gap that fabric cannot fill entirely. But now that this video has brought some attention I do think that papermc can improve in many ways. There are so many things I can ask for but I think one of them stands out as more important: Papermc has a default configuration when creating a fresh server. I think this default configuration is a core issue since it tries to capture all paper servers as a whole even though they are way too diverse. There are many paper server owners that don't really know what they are doing, but they do host for a whole lot more players as well. Make it easier for them to choose a preset to their needs. If they want to keep redstone to mostly vanilla mechanics then let them do that. Make it obvious to them; Don't just make a document. You need to work with inexperienced players that might not take more than an hour to set up their first server. Put it in their face and explain to them roughly what they are choosing. If they want to enable tnt duping and it's mechanics to the fullest extent then they get an option for that without having to go through a daunting configuration text full of exploits they have never heard of. When we have a player in our discord running paper and we can tell them just simply do `/paper config vanilla-mechanics true` and that fixes even 20% of their requests broken by paper then that will be AMAZING. With how large papermc is and how much it "decides" how people play you should take it to your own hands to whitelist certain plugins that for example optimize performance but keep vanilla mechanics and help server owners find these to fit their needs.
Yeah I found this video incredibly hard to watch because of everything you say here. It’s literally just whinging, and most criticisms aren’t even valid…
"Paper's changes have been made for a reason, most of the time lag, often for anticheat, sometimes for plugin-capabilities, and sometimes for just someone's opinion and subjective "bugsmashing". Pretending this is some kind of malice isnt very productive or fair I think." the issue is sometime their bug fix are just horible, a good example is with nicnac's skipper for 1.19, its a very small contraption that can make a lot of update very fast and thus lag server, patching it is good. But their patch was literally to check for every redstone dust if bellow them was an open trap door, they could have just fix the update system but no. (this was patch in 1.20 by mojang, and they fix their update system) "but again describing these differences as "hostile" is something I can't necessarily entirely agree with" The issue is their patch 1 are undocumented 2 have a lot of side effect (like slowing down server, kill entity, ect), thing that degrade UX and tech player notice it a lot since we are the ppl who play MC the most. "I certainly also prefer the vanilla flavor, but technical minecraft players are very hard to please since we depend on a much larger and much more detailed set of features." Yes, but you can see the tech community as a stack, patch something that only fan on update suppression uses and not a lot will get mad, it will not affect everyone who use less niche and useful bug, patch the number of entity tick and you piss off the entire tech comunity, it affect all entity based farms, it affect tnt duping, it affect update suppression, it affect everything that touch to entity and here more ppl will get mad. "In a similar vein I think technical minecraft players who play on paper servers can also largely adapt to the different rules" Yes, but it would be way easier to know the rules, we would need to have a doc about what they change and what settings is on the server but currently we can't know.
i read all this and agree, i also made a comment of my own depicting my experiences with papermc and its devs as a server owner. i've used both fabric and papermc for years.
I've been running an SMP server since the start of this year and slowly but surely I'm starting to hate paper with a passion. We don't really have a lot of technical players per say but even the average joe runs into a brick wall when trying to build a storage system or a small perimeter digging machine, besides that half the plugins we install straight up don't work and trying to find a version of it that does work is a wild goose chase. With the release of 1.21 we are switching to fabric. Thank you for pointing this abomination out to the world!
Paper does not create its own plugins, I don't really think you should blame it if you find broken plugins. That's like blaming fabric itself if you find a broken mod.
We inlcuded a mail sorting system into one of our projects that allows you to rename pieces of paper to send a shulker box to a specific location inside the build. Only problem is: Paper ""optimizes"" the game by removing one of the default item tags, RepairCost to be exact. So if you rename an item on a vanilla world and then try to stack it with one created on a paper server, killing any kind of sorting system that relies on renamed items. We had tons of people complain about the system not working while on our server it would just work fine. And while I get that the repair cost of an item with no durability is completely pointless, it still seems like a massive oversight by the devs.
That makes sense. Both of the servers I play on don't use Paper, one is vanilla, and one is a heavily modded Forge server. At this point, I'm a technical player, mostly due to computer science courses changing how I play the game, just with nowhere near your level of understanding of Minecraft mechanics.
Some in the comments are missing the point cubic is making when bellyaching about having to deal with server mechanics (even basic ones like not being able to delete the world files until you shut the server down). The point is that in order to do any testing of builds on Paper, he'd HAVE to set up a server, as he doesn't have the option to do it in true single player like he normally would. Meaning that in order to adequately respond to the high volume of comments he gets asking about making things that work on Paper (the starting point of the whole video), he would have to go through that process every time for even basic testing, never mind complex troubleshooting, and for him that's just an unnecessary hassle that wouldn't be worth it. And while Paper may have its place for servers with player numbers in the triple digits and a focus on plugin-based minigames and PVP, and may edge out Fabric servers on performance and features in those use cases, its ubiquity means server owners clearly often end up using it when it's not necessary or even optimal, leading to frequent confusion and frustration from players trying to do complex redstone things and finding they can't make them work because the defaults and under-the-hood changes are so destructive (just look at this comment section).
I think this is a fair assessment for what he intended with all the workflow comments. But it's also fair to call out that this is categorically different from a critique of paper itself. The video doesn't really bother to differentiate and heavilly implies that this is a problem caused by paper (exclusively). Rather than the truth which is just "a server based workflow is something I don't prefer/haven't developed". The title is also "the problem with paper" but then goes in depth about these workflow features, so I think the critique is warranted
@@DanielLvbrtteOlsen I'd agree with you apart from the fact that a "server-based workflow" is irrelevant for server software that doesn't change vanilla mechanics. If you're designing for vanilla mechanics, the worst-case scenario on vanilla-compatible servers is making sure the timings hold up under server conditions.
We started our community on a paper server that I hosted. At some point it became such a headache for our storage that I researched other ways of hosting and we ended up on a fabric server with comparable mods as what you showed. Our machines now only fail if we make a mistake instead of weird server errors.
Preaching to the choir, mate xD Ran a paper server for my friends for a few weeks because I heard it has good performance, discovered that enabling sand duping isn't a config option, never run a paper server since.
and hey - thank you for the modlist. you’ve made technical minecraft more accessible to at least one other person! keep up the great work you do to make technical minecraft interesting and accessible! i appreciate it :)
And this is a significant improvement for Paper. Years back, I was helping a friend run a minecraft server that was on Paper, and I saw a cool technical build - some tunnel boring machine - and decided to build it. Spent so many hours on it. And it didn't work at all, destroyed itself immediately. I then tested and tested and found out Paper was mucking up the redstone, the tnt duping, the chunkloading, the physics, literally every single part of it. I reported the problems, and got an "This is our vision, those are bugs, we fixed them, this is better" back, and spent a good few weeks arguing with them that stuff should be a config if you're going to change the entire game that we all know and love at it's most fundamental level. They told me to go play something else, they knew best and wouldn't be changing it or adding any configs into it, because they didn't like duping exploits and all the physics weren't needed they just slowed the game down. I ended up just giving up, and leaving very, very dissatisfied, and have made sure to let everyone who will listen know how much I dislike Paper. It's cool to do your own thing as someone developing something, but I'll never understand taking something like Minecraft, breaking it entirely in the name of "optimization" and then refusing to allow people to choose what features they want to disable. I can understand having stuff disabled by default, even, if you feel it's a bug and shouldn't exist, but to not even have an option is pretty wild. All while other optimizations manage to do it better than you do, without ruining the core game. The news that they've added config options for some of that stuff is pretty wild, given how adamant they were about never allowing anything of the sort.
Paper has always annoyed me. For a server i played with friends on we had paper, and it basically made everything impossible. It was possible to turn tnt and sand duping back on but what annoyed me the most was that chunkloaders do not work at all and can't even be turned on in the config.
I played on a server for a while, and as I started getting into the midgame and building farms, things kept breaking. Not just redstone either, entities disappearing and villagers freezing their AI. The community was very pleasant, but I ended up quitting because the actual gameplay was miserable. I'm not even that technical of a player, I just like it when basic machines work consistently. After seeing this video, I bet the server was using paper or something similar.
Thank you for this video! Especially the section on how performance can be even better with a fabric server than paper. Convinced me to swap my server over to fabric
I played on a Hypixel SMP (uses Paper) for a while and even the most basic farms broke almost immediately which is why I started running my own fabric server. Thanks for showing in depth the faults of paper servers.
And if you've ever played around with vanilla command creations, they have some of the same issues on highly degraded server software such as Paper as well.
We ran our building server on spigot for a few months but found it too limiting and annoying having to restart if I wanted to change something. Honestly the fabric modding scene is so much better than anything else.
I remember the first time that I set up a private server for me and my friends. we wanted to do some smaller mods and I decided to go with paper, simply because I had heard of it and thought it was a good reputable server JAR to use. Boy was I wrong not only did half of the farms we had on the vanilla world that I imported break, but it was running notably worse than the vanilla server I previously had. Sure enough, after hours of troubleshooting and painstaking research, I discovered the countless custom rules in the server properties file that just break or turn off vanilla mechanics in the name of "performance optimizations". Needless to say, when I then imported the original vanilla world file to a server on a Fabric JAR, everything worked perfectly fine and ran smoother to boot. I haven't touched paper since then and don't plan to ever again.
I make a server with friends every year and we had been using paper for a while but as we got better at the game we started noticing a lot of broken game mechanics. A simple hopper arrangement or dropper elevator just don't work. I lost my mind trying to build them. It was just random when they worked and when they didn't. Stopped playing because of it. Never going to use it again. Already started to make a fabric mod list. Ty for making this video. It's just pain playing on paper.
I spent 6 years playing on a paper server, and I had to resort to using private explois and workarounds (like how it was on 1.12.2 and thus didn't receive modern patches), but then it updated and was made even worse than I would have ever imagined.
I play the game very casually, not even on a technical level, and I thought I was the only one who used Fabric as a server software just because it ran so much better than Paper and oddities (even in casual play) don't happen anywhere near as often. Thanks for getting this out there
Yo, guys, you know what would be sick for him to make. Hear me out: orbital cannon using the exploding arrow trick to locate the player and blows up their current location, turning yourself into a nuclear level creeper.
So THIS is why my redstoning experience on servers has been so god damn awful! I don't really play on servers nowadays cause almost every server I've tried to join has just broken all my redstone builds. I remember one particularly bad experience on EarthMC. I was an employee at a redstone engineering company that made farms and stuff for players around the server. I would spend hours creating the right contraption for the job, only to import it and have everything break. Hopper timers would be so inconsistent, repeater clocks would just break, and so many bizarre little bugs would make me have to design the entire thing in server. The entire company eventually broke up cause all the engineers got fed up with the server mechanics. So sad such an integral part of the minecraft community gets shafted by most servers.
I used to try out those "optimized" versions of minecraft servers, believing it would help optimize my single player gaming experience but you're correct, it just led to a rabbithole of confusing and illogical restrictions on the game itself. Fortunately now we have Fabric and I don't use anything else.
I can answer the controller question : I use gyroscope aiming ! Sticks are terrible for aiming, but with gyroscope I’m as precise as with a mouse ! And I can instantly turn to any direction that’s a little too far thank to flick stick. I wouldn’t recommend it for filming videos though. The movement can be pretty nauseating when you’re not the one driving it.
I am aware that controllers offer some benefits for movement when combined with gyroscope and flick sticks but what I am saying is that they are badly suited to tasks which require precise aiming at a specific spot for extended periods of time. Like imagine trying to place a row of top slabs against a wall consistently with a gyro controller, the slightest movement and you end up placing bottom slabs.
@@cubicmetreIts not actually that bad. Consider splatoon, a shooter game series played (almost) entirely with gyro, which obviously requires a lot of precision at top level, but people can play that just fine haha
@@nintySW Play how you want to play, but a mouse with no mouse acceleration from windows will have your hand move directly to the point where you want your cursor to arrive. Using a controller will always be a game of timing where you hold the stick in a position for long enough until it arrives at location. Sure professionals might get really good but it will just be less convenient.
@@nintySWas a splatoon player I can attest that gyro would be horrid for trying to place a row of top slabs. There’s a bug that causes drift specifically when you try to keep the cursor still. It is a bug though so if it ever got fixed it would probably be fine.
Oké, i absolutely didn’t know you could join a server which has mods on vannila.. I’m going to try to switch my server to fabric too, also becease of the better server optimisation you showed. Thanks cubic 🎉
has to be server side mods, stuff like lithium and carpet, since they only run on the server a vanilla client can join, just like how client side mods can still run on vanilla servers. but mids that run on both will still need to be installed on both (you wont be able to join a server with create on your vanilla client for example)
Having suffered through PaperMC jank for almost a decade now, seeing one of technical minecraft's best players yell "GOD DAMMIT" at Paper is cathartic to say the least
This video is literaly my entire minecraft experience described xD I discovered minecraft about 3 years ago, been running my own server for more than 2 years (paper server as that's what i knew from my first server experience). I also very quickly fell in love with redstone and technical minecraft. Didn't take too much time before I ran into the first paper issue. Since then i kinda specialized in running more and more complexe redstone machines on paper servers and attempt to balance the configs to keep the redstone working. Been running large tunnel bores and world eaters, millions items per hour farms and even some models of stacking raidfarms. But it is a challenge for sure to make those wonderfull machines fonction correctly on paper server. Also not everything is fixable, things like mobswitches and update skipping in my experience do not work.
yeah i play on a server that uses a bukkit/paper fork called pufferfish and im just afraid to even attempt any kind of technical build. at least i get to enjoy being a builder instead
The issue with servers going against technical gameplay is that the common player doesn't optimize their builds. In 2017, DieBuddiesZocken did a collab with PitForge, their first money farm was sugar cane, but then they started to make fully automatic cacti farms, and their fans copied them, of course. This led to the overabundance of cacti farms on all servers. (but most of all on the server they played on) They even visited bases of others and encouraged them to build bigger. The result of their actions: lag as far as the eye can see. And they couldn't tell that cacti farms were the cause, as the money from them was too great to acknowledge fault. But rescue came from other servers, they together farmed up at least 20 creeper spawn eggs, got inside their base, and not only raided them, but griefed their base. This devastated the TH-camrs, they quit on the same day they found their base in shambles. The lag declined after 2 weeks, and so did their moderation of the whole server.
its for that the economy need to change, to prevent big farm running 24/7. A french minecraft minigame called "cité" uses this, in "cité" player are in team and need to farm and gain money to win (this minigame date to ~2011 irrc). Most of "cité" now have an economy that change between day so they can't just make a huge cactus farm as it would waste too much time.
As a public server owner that can't develop mods/plugins, it feels like paper is mandatory since almost no plugin got a fabric equivalent. But yeah it took (and still takes) hours to debug which default settings is breaking a core mechanic of the game..
i think the biggest issue is anti-cheat, unless your server is full of obscure plugins with weird funtionalities you can probably find a fabric mod for it on modrinth. but anticheat, i cant find any
Just a head's up, most plugins will work with any spigot fork (like Paper), so you can kind of experiment around to find one that works best for you- of course, any plugins made specifically for Paper won't work. Also, assuming you like technical stuff given that you watch this channel, I highly recommend trying out mod or plugin development sometime! The hardest part is just setting up the work environment, the actual coding isn't too bad, especially for plugins- I learned most of my early programming knowledge from developing one-off plugins lol o_O
I once installed Paper for my server on a raspberry pi. After some playtime, I blew up by an invisible creeper, along other weird stuff going on. Never installed Paper again.
I remember when I was first getting into "technical" Minecraft. We spent hundreds of hours spawnproofing the nether and building a giant wither skeleton farm only to find out wolves don't even scare wither skeletons on paper... Later found out this is intended behaviour because "path finding causes lag".
Paper devs lobotomizing the game to get it to 1,000,000 fps:
@@VoxAstra-qk4jzlobotomizing the game to get +1 fps
@@macronevicktor sounds more like it.
I think Paper should remove blocks from the game because blocks cause lags
@@macronevicktor paper doesn't do anything to improve fps, only tps. And it's only moderately good at that.
'Who controls the default, controls the way we play'
I'll definitely remember that
wise words from wise man
This is also why alot of people use Edge, not because they want to. But because it works and its default thing installed on Windows. :D
the exact reason there are antitrust suits about defaults being set anticompetitively (like edge)
"He who controls the Spice, controls the universe!"
@@profoundgames_and also why microsoft got into a whole lot of trouble back in the day, and why there's to this day windows versions for europe that do not include windows media player, and the whole internet explorer antitrust case also
You do realize that we're gonna need a full cover of "I'm not a big fan of Paper" now, right?
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The paper devs also removed the option to re-enable sand duping with the end portal completly, needing a 3rd party plugin all because of "muh exploits"
They only begrudgingly let tnt get duped simply because mojang endorses it/they'd get too much hatemail for it
Isn't sand dupe also endorsed by mojang till we have a proper way to make more?
I mean I don't agree with dupes at all but I don't mind other people doing jt
Bro they're actually the most superiority complex devs in this game. Mojang officially endorses and allows this till either they can find a satisfying way to have renewable sand and block removal or make the current ones fit
I think they just re added it. Or at least they re added whatever "allow-unsafe-end-portal-teleportation" is. I wish I had known how bad paper is for the world of redstone before I decided to use it.
this as well as void trading. void trading isnt even a dupe, its just expediting an in game process to get materials just like literally any other farm. paper devs view this as a dupe though and dont let you config it at all.
I didn't realize that most of the things that annoy me about building technical farms on public servers in general... are just things that annoy me about paper.
That's not paper's fault that those servers enabled those patches. Tell them to disable it in config. It's not difficult.
@@zern7617 sure bud just beg the server managers to mess with config when they likely left paper on default config _because_ they don't wanna mess with config
@@rigen97 Yes, do that.
If they don't want to edit their config, your playthrough being effected is not paper's fault, it's the servers fault. It's like me complaining about a feature in a server that stops me from duping. It doesn't make sense bro.
@@zern7617 I honestly doubt some random Minecraft server admin will give a damn about 1 player having problems with their server settings, and honestly, why should they? You're treating them like a shitty game dev instead of some teenager/20 something who just runs a Minecraft server 'cause they can.
They likely don't care, especially if Paper was their go to, and yes, it IS Paper's fault for having these settings on by default, if they wanted it to be like "VANILLA with mods" they wouldn't have ADDED settings that ALTER VANILLA on by default.
The creators are just gatekeeping game mechanics because they don't like them, essentially moderating people's playthroughs, which is kinda shitty, ngl. Just let people have fun their way.
@@SmilesEdgeworth If the server admin doesn't want to change it, then that's not paper's fault at all, it's the admin's fault. If you don't like it, then don't play their server.
Paper is not advertised as "optimized vanilla!!" or something like that. It's advertised as *bug fixed minecraft*
It's meant to fix bugs, and it does that, and it also fixes lag sources. If you dislike it and don't want to spend a minute to fix it then cope hard.
Blocking bugs is gatekeeping people from bug abusing, it's not a feature. Tnt duping is not being *Patched* by Minecraft because they want to keep it. It's 100% a bug, and if servers want it they can change it in settings in under a minute.
I have a paper trauma ever since I was playing on a minecraft server hosted by a couple of youtubers, and started building a raid farm. I gathered the resources and built the entire thing over the course of a week and then decided to run it. I was very confused when I got bombarded with ravagers and other raid mobs flying all over the place. I spent multiple days trying to find what I did wrong, I ran the schematic verifier multiple times and I found nothing. I asked the server's admin and he told me: "That's strange, we didn't disable raid farming in the settings." Apparently paper calculates entity collisions way different. Since then before I build anything on a server I don't know, I check the version, server type, and mods/plugins of every server I play on.
I feel your pain. Reminds me of how I spent like 6 hours on building a trident farm on top of a river only to not get a single trident from it, because the spawn rate was much lower than in vanilla. And I had to remove some of the things of the farm because the farm server reset every day. So annoying.
One question: How do you check the version, server type, and mods/plugins of every server you play on?
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Oh my god this reminds me of my friend and I trying to build a raid farm. It took me over a week to find out what's wrong with the server. Paper is pain
It works OK for our simple smp you just trying too hard
@@kreuner11Have you ever tried creating one of the bigger ones?
you know what they say! the best way to reduce lag is to just disable all the features until theres nothing to lag the server anymore
I feel like there were many missed opportunities for "works on paper" - puns
unfortunately nothing works on paper
@@SpencerS145 i meant the idiom in the sense of "works theoretically" --> "works on paper"
@@legopalji i understood that and was making an ironic counterjoke
@@SpencerS145 and i'm dumb and don't know how irony works
What drives me crazy is that a lot of people have no idea paper changes gameplay at all when they choose to use it
this was me
im a bedrock tech player recently moved to java and used paper to run a server with friends and sent the better part of 6 months troubleshooting my builds to find out paper is the issue. im on fabric now and it fixed 80% of my issues (the other 20% me being dumb lols)
At one point in time, they even had the audacity to write "Vanilla Compatible" or "No-Compromise performance" and "Non-Intrusive and not changing gameplay" or something like that on their front page, I can't remember what exactly but it was not worded in an evasive manner in the slightest. They have since completely updated their website and removed the text, but that's such a scummy way to advertize your software, especially because of it I have had people telling me it's the redstoners fault for not testing their contraption and that it 100% can't be papers fault because of that one line. People genuenly believed and told me in my face that paper is exactly like vanilla but with plugins and does not affect any gameplay. It does. And I'm mad exactly because of that. Paper is not for small SMP servers, fabric or vanilla is, paper is for those big mini-game servers that don't care about vanilla survival minecraft, that already change everything about how the game is played.
😂
The tagline you are talking about is "Paper is the next generation of Minecraft servers, compatible with Spigot plugins, offering uncompromising performance."
Now, it depends on what "uncompromising" they are talking about: If they are talking about compared to vanilla, then yes, it is very misleading, but they may also be talking about Spigot, which is what Paper is based upon and Paper exists because Spigot, compared to Paper, has way more performance issues and the project is very stagnant since the whole DMCA debacle that happened a few years back. And Spigot also has game breaking changes too, and CraftBukkit also has game breaking changes too... it is all game breaking changes from the top to the bottom because the software needs to break things, sometimes to make performance better, other times to support plugins.
It's fully configurable. The goal of paper is to fix bugs. You can't complain that paper fixes bugs when that's the point. Don't like it? Disable the patch. Simple. But oh, you complain.
@@zern7617 I literally CAN'T disable the patch, it's not an option to do that. Paper does not provide you the options to disable some things, did you even watch the video?
@@Hlebuw3k
> I literally CAN'T disable the patch, it's not an option to do that
Fork the project and remove the patch, this is what zern is talking about
The thing is, fabric isn't super scalable unless you get into instancing, which is super advanced stuff. I run a pretty large public superflat server, and we need things like TNT duping, raid farms, sand duping, etc due to the superflat limitations. While it can be tricky to get paper to accommodate these features, it's certainly not impossible. Meanwhile, running fabric simply isn't an option when 100 players might be on at once.
I think the points you made in this video really only apply to servers with like maximum 40 people playing at any given time.
0-50 players: Just use fabric
50-400 players: Use paper
400+ players: Use fabric with instancing
Hey! What do you mean by "fabric with instancing"? i've tried to search by this but i wasn't able to find anything. Ty!
@@Dajuhf Basically it's a technique that extremely popular servers like 2B2T and Hypixel use where you split one Minecraft world across a bunch of different servers.
On the client side it's pretty seamless, but really you're being juggled around to a bunch of different servers while moving around in the world so that the playercount on any given instance never gets too high.
@@Mogswamp you could also use Folia (which is based on Paper), that's what 2b2t uses to accomodate a lot much players
Yeah, that is the thing, it might be annoying if you don't have a lot of players but if you do, those "little" improvements or things that break functionality add up
Strong agree, fabric might work for smaller/private servers, but anything above 30 players and paper/purpur is the best by miles. This video really gives off a lot of it's own elitism for private/smaller technical server in an ironic way, when a large majority of players aren't interested in that, and prefer to play servers with 100s of players online instead. Why should paper go out of their way to accommodate such a seemingly hostile minority, when the majority of players and servers rely on many of its changes to the game to function without performance issues?
Mojang: As the developers of the game, we're intentionally leaving in TNT duping in the game, because there's no real alternative in many use cases. We'll consider removing TNT duping when we replace the mechanic with viable alternatives that fit with vanilla Minecraft. We understand the value these bugs add to niche communities, and we're working to make sure they stay in the game until we can dedicate more time to improving those areas.
Paper devs: We're removing things the primary game developers have patched back into the game, and we're not giving you the choice to turn it back on because "it's not our design goal to make bugs configurable". Our server default is to automatically delete any redstone device capable of running on its own. The technical community is in the wrong for refusing to work with us.
It's one thing to say "We don't support technical minecraft builds because they depend on mechanics that can cause slowdowns on multiplayer servers, and our primary target audience is large multiplayer servers. We're intentionally removing vanilla features to maintain stable performance on large servers." But that's not what the Paper devs are doing. They're intentionally breaking vanilla features, and then blaming other people when they don't tell them what's broken. That's insane behavior right there.
What's interesting is how many technical things Mojang is adding to the vanilla game. At some point, Paper is just going to be so broken for vanilla minecraft that they have to completely give up, and admit it's only for highly modded servers, where you need compatibility with really old legacy mods. I think this video might be the first step in killing Paper's popularity. Paper doesn't run Minecraft. It runs something vaguely similar to minecraft.
Wonder why they didn't fix bud powering, since it wasn't intentionally added
Paper's goal is to patch bugs. It patches bugs. That's the point. It functions properly without configuration, you just have to change it if you want to add bugs.
@@zern7617 I think the main issue is where people actually draw the line for what's a bug, because it's a very debatable topic.
@@zern7617 Mhm, paper removed the ability to make chunk loaders which are an integral part of many builds, and they also took away the option to reenable them. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
@@3_Circles Paper is meant for big servers, not your friend smp server. Its design is fixing security flaws, bugs, and lag. And i'm 99.99% certain that's in the config still
Paper is literally just for public servers that want plugins and dont care about vanilla experience. Use fabric servers instead.
Even a simple item filter doesn't work on paper
It does work
@@malpkakefirekpaper users on their way to change every single configuration to get item sorting to work
@@birne_ item sorting works without changing anything. But yes, I have to change a lot of config files to make everything work. If there was a perfect coreprotect alternative for fabric, I would probably switch. But ledger is not great and I don't know of any others so... 🤷
Fabric doesn't have Geyser : /
@@Ruben-zf1euGeyser’s implementation is pretty balls anyways.
I have fond memories of joining a whitelist server called "The Cave" with the intention of building a big underground cave hub at spawn, only to discover TNT dupers are broken.
oh my god, this is disaster 😂
Not paper's fault.
@@zern7617 Literally the thing in the video, except I wanted a tunnel bore instead of a cannon.
@@logon-oe6un Papers goal is to fix bugs. Tnt dupers being blocked is not paper being broken, it's a bug fix. It can be disabled in the servers config.
@@zern7617 Paper defaults to disabling vanilla behavior. Kinda shit philosophy.
Watch the video and have your points addressed or skip that and sit in your hole of moding mechanics out of a game and pretending it's equivalent. Hell, mod air strafing out of TF2, for all I care, as long as it's clearly labeled so I can avoid it.
It's even less fun as a mapmaker lol. Random commands don't work and you have to figure out why for yourself because Paper sure as hell doesn't know
-Paper deletes teams that nobody is on when you restart the server
-/spreadplayers is busted
-Something with armor stands and pressure plates? I genuinely have no idea what but it broke all my randomizers
-God knows what else
@@theworfer27 i was testing a super basic explosive bow a few years ago that worked perfectly on fabric & vanilla, on paper... it tore a hole to bedrock and would have crashed the server with infinite tnt if i didn't type the command to kill the arrow so fast... paper...
also the fact that it deletes empty teams is ridiculous
@@theworfer27 about the first setting: That's... wrong? There is a Paper setting to disable saving empty scoreboard teams, but it is set to false by default.
Besides, if you are making a map, then why are you using Paper? Paper is meant for server owners that are creating a public Minecraft server with plugins, and in that case, server owners won't use complex command blocks commands and redstone to do their thing, they will use plugins and code to do things.
@@MrPowerGamerBR he is using paper exactly for that... to use said plugins that the server uses (for example for a bedwars map u set the map spawnpoints for said plugin)
Now I know why loads of my builds don't work on servers I play on.
not to mention the exploits that only exist in paper like being able to clip through blocks because of its ping compensation, ironically giving more exploits to hackers and removing fun "exploits" from normal players
Don't forget "nocom"
@@OninDynamicsWe'll never forget nocom exploit
Which get patched. And the exploits they block are real exploits and can be unpatched in config.
Quit complaining about problems that don't exist.
@@zern7617 ah yes the real exploits like *functioning redstone*
@@100_JAB If the redstone you're using is based on an exploit or a lag source it will be blocked. this block can be disabled in paper configuration anyway.
“I turned off all the bugs that enable technical play. Why wont technical players help me find why all the redstone doesnt work?”
well, speaking as a server runner since 2010, its just bukkit -> spigot -> paper is all we had back then especially during the performance issues days in 1.13 and 1.14, and its gonna take a long time before people start realizing fabric is the way to go. i exclusively use fabric now but i know people are addicted to their bukkit plugins and wont switch without an alternative
I've never felt so much second hand annoyance. I *think* you got your point across quite well.
Second hand annoyance. Definitely never read that phrase, but its one I will remember and maybe use now.
Paper is the killer of fun. Back in 2017 I played on a server with some school friends, and the guy who ran the server hosted it in paper. I remember being so excited to make a tnt duper to create a batcave, and being immensely disappointed when it didn't work at all. The worst about paper is not knowing what a POS it is, and trying to play the game normally, only to have a rude awakening 20 hours in and quit immediately because it has sucked all the fun out of a sandbox block game.
“paper sucks because my server owner doesn’t bother to do basic config”
@@许玄清if basic settings are like this then yes. It's sucks
@@许玄清paper sucks because the server owner has to get into the configs before it can function properly.
@@许玄清why would they even think to do so when vanilla has everything like that on by default
@@tl1326skill issue.
Glad to see someone talking about how pretentious the PaperMC devs are. Gotta love people taking it upon themselves to decide the correct way to play.
Paper is soooo annoying whenever I start a server with my friends I have to delve into the games files to disable all the limitations of paper.
Just make a fabric server instead?
I don’t spend money on games very much so I don’t pay for servers, I use free server hosting software and I haven’t found a free platform that doesn’t use paper or a paper equivalent.
paper is good when you need to assume people are going to try to break your server, that's where the compriomises are.
@@oscarjolly309 Aternos
@@wontcreepYour server gets broken either ways, there are private paper dupes and server crashes function just the same.
yh i once tried to protect my moss farm using a chunk loader to provide for a safe shutdown in case the player lost connection while afking, only to discover that chunk loaders have been "fixed" and there is no setting to reenable them.
Yeah they seem way too restrictive, although yeah if chunk loafers worked on the servers I played on there would be thousands and the server would be brought to its knees
@@sirwabaloo7930 thats the kind of thing where if paper was normal you would use a plugin to disable them, or import a list of configs that gets it all done in one so you don't forget anything
@@sirwabaloo7930What the servers of this era have not realized is that instead of building seven of the same farm by yourself it would be 100 times easier to get a bunch of those people on the server together and make a perimiter with them and have farm(s) inside of it. Everyone is so selfish on the servers of this era nobody understands just how easy the game can be.
Chunk loaders using portals are an intended game mechanic with well defined behaviour. In this case they were broken.
@@AzekialKhyber *Me casually burning 10 dubs of duped gear on sum random anarchy server* : Ye ong brother so ezzzzzzz
I remember building 6 variations of a furnace array on a Paper server and all of them being broken (Working in vanilla, of course).
I've been running a pretty casual minecraft server for years on paper. I've always noticed some... interesting... quirks about it but just always worked around them in one way or another. I've tried fabric in the past when I didn't have much server administration experience, and had some issues that I can't even remember now. I think this video is my sign to try to use fabric again. Thanks for making this video.
Paper is great if you need to run Bukkit API plugins at decent performance. But the fact is, the whole Bukkit ecosystem is absolutely ancient, and breaking vanilla behavior is a default assumption there. So Paper breaking even more vanilla stuff is to be expected.
Totally agreed here- I feel like the video and a lot of the comments here are coming from a very narrow, outsider view of Paper's goals. It isn't intended for a vanilla experience, and it is more-so a stable impl for large-scale plugin-centric servers.
sponge?
Really great video! I totally feel your pain and criticism regarding Paper and other server modifying plugins. I also wanted to do technical Minecraft stuff on servers I played on, but plugins intervened ruining my hard work. I really appreciate your video and I hope this gets popular.
I wanted to build a automatic furnace smeltery using bamboo as fuel, but the hoppers were so slow that the fuel burned before it got replenished by the hopper with new bamboo.
For example, I wanted to build a automatic storage system using droppers that transport items up using a clock. And it worked. But then the next day, the clocks got deleted from the plugin and replaced with signs. After rebuilding it again, it also got replaces with signs.
I know your pain, back in the old days I played on a public server where I made a cool treehouse in a jungle and wanted to start automating things. Like I made a water flushing system for collecting wheat crops and started a horse breeding shop where I tried to make the fastest horses. I made a massive racetrack with a timer to determine the speed of the horses. But the server had a pluggin which would yeet tile events after they repeat a certain amount of times so the timer kept breaking. Because the pluggin only worked with tile events I found a workaround which used a sticky piston and redstone block to clock itself and established the timer that way. Then one day I logged on and my whole racetrack had been deleted because the pluggin could still detect tile events originating from the piston clock and reported the events to an admin that tped to my base and couldn't be bothered finding the specific redstone component causing the problem so they just world editted the whole racetrack into oblivion.
I knew paper was broken, but never realized how truly broken it was.
Paper is not broken. Paper's goal is to patch bugs. It patches bugs. That's the point. It functions properly without configuration, you just have to change it if you want to add bugs.
@@zern7617you've been defending paper in every comment, and you're not even right. This video clearly shows paper not working right and needing to specifically be worked around without going into files. In the time it takes to change files for paper, you can just go get fabric.
@@Grumpy1174 Then go get fabric. I don't see how it's Paper's fault for blocking bugs and then the user not being able to spend a few minutes configuring to their wants.
Because it is not broken. Author just doesn't want to spend some time in order to configure anything as he WANTS. It takes literally as much time as configuring all these dozens of necessary optimisation mods on fabric/forge.
@@Grumpy1174this video is biased and has no real evidence. The only thing is bug fixes enabled by default
I wanted to build a automatic furnace smeltery using bamboo as fuel, but the hoppers were so slow that the fuel burned before it got replenished by the hopper with new bamboo.
As someone who has inherited a paper(purpurmc) server for the community I am part of, I feel this everytime I try to do anything complex with redstone.
One day I am going to start on the project to migrate to fabric with trying to find all the alternatives for plugins we use or make my own damn ones
Im also an inheritor of the biggest MLP based MC server in my global region, that was always built on paper. And we currently passed full fabric migration, wrote dozens of own mods to make it work great, and surely better, than it ever was.
@@SasisaPlays that gives me hope
@@SasisaPlayslol MLP loser
@@SasisaPlaysi can't tell if you are sarcastic or not?
@@Yasser-444 nope, im not sarcastic. Why would i be?
My breaking point as a bare-metal server admin with Paper is when the TNT dupers my little group wanted to use still didn't work even after I combed through every single relevant setting. Ended up going straight up the chain to Spigot for the increased plugin support without the Paper-levels of god complex.
It would be a fun challenge to write a hyper-optimized version of a Minecraft server with Bukkit plugin support, Carpet levels of "just works," etc. - but obviously not a simple task by any means. One of the few programmers I actively look up to recently mentioned one of his "heh this is stupid but might be fun" ideas: a version of Minecraft which stores game data in an IO-optimized format for Direct Storage off an NVME drive. Then, process as much of the game as possible in paralell, be that with threaded CPU work, Nvidia's CUDA paltform, or some other solution (yes, I realize that this would require careful consideration since Minecraft's processing order is tightly defined and a number of the most awesome contraptions rely on this order).
The most disappointing thing for me in my years of playing Minecraft was playing on paper server and trying tnt duping just to realize it doesn't work AND the server deletes the tnt duping blocks.
Remember building a farm on a server and it just didn't work. Went to check redstone to find it didn't pass signals over the chunk boarder......
Very true. "Optimisations" should not change the default functionality of minecraft
Paper breaks vanilla functionality on purpose so they can squeeze more performance out. It is an intentional tradeoff. This is doubly so because the stuff it breaks tends to be the more performance intensive stuff. (such as redstone)
Like, with paper I can easily handle 5-10 times as many players than I can with vanilla. Fabric offers some good optimization mods, but as a whole fabric (and quilt) has a really subpar ecosystem for managing server-side addons. And then people could still easily break my server with redstone.
Of course every person with a small server using paper is silly. Just use bukkit at that point. You don't need to squeeze that performance out if you have less than 10-20 players online.
limiting tnt updates per tick is not related to those performance gains, it shouldnt be in by default@@goosewoman
@@incriptionit absolutely is though, placing a ton of tnt and having to do the processing for 2000 tnt at once will bring a server to its knees, limiting the processing lets people still place down a bunch of tnt but wont reduce the mspt to 0
@@incriptiona few hundred blocks of TNT activated simultaneously or over a handful of ticks can bring a server's TPS down to the low single digits.
My point was basically that paper makes changes to the codebase in favor of optimizations. This is done for a specific subset of servers. The vast majority of servers gain no benefit from using Paper. If you use it for anything vanilla-ish and aren't running 50+ people you're just being stupid. Just use bukkit. Hating on paper because people are using the wrong software for their use-case is silly. Hate on the server owner for using paper or play on a server that doesn't use paper.
@@incription it would be a very good feature, if (and only if) it were off by default.
If you want to play normal multiplayer use the normal server software. You dont need to use spigot or paper. Those have way better perfomance for larger player amounts but need to change/remove features to have a greater perfomance.
man i'll never forget the times when all i had to do to make a server was install the forge server files and run the server
you can still do that
@@inx1819 yeah obviously, it just seems like that's really not the norm anymore, not that this is a bad thing, maybe it's easier, idk. what's for sure is that there are way more options nowadays and that it seems a lot of ppl don't know how simple setting up a server by yourself can be
ah yes, i remember running into that EXACT problem with max TNT processed per tick - that shit blew up an entire duper array i had built on a server, it took a friend and i EONS to determine what was wrong, finally we figured it out and asked the server admin to up the limit but goddamn
Oh my god, this explains everything. I tried to run a TNT Cobble Generator on a Skyblock server, and I just could not get it to work, and I could not figure out why. It worked on my single-player world, but just would not work on the server.
I completely agree with most of the things you said. You shouldn't have to adjust configs to be able to play vanilla. and disabling the vanilla functions by default is a big nogo. But for me personally, creating plugins for Paper is much easier/more intuitive than with Fabric. And you don't have to restart the server to adjust a config/install plugins, a reload is usually enough.
yeah paper have great DX (dev experiance), you should look at how their build system work, its fantastic.
I used to be an admin on a small smp server that ran paper and let me tell you trying to deal with all the weird bugs paper creates is miserable. not to mention reporting these bugs often just gets ignored or worse one of the dev's goes on a psychotic rant because you dared to point out that their code was broken.
It's ironic hearing them say "the technical community won't work with us" when I've personally witnessed them ignoring bug reports from technical players. They just want to shift the blame.
@@jeffreyrhoten8652 when those "bug reports" are technical players trying to convince them to reintroduce bugs they've patched in the name of improving performance and removing game-breaking exploits the Paper team is right in ignoring the bug report and banning the user, because their goal is not being compatible with vanilla. Their goal is to be a suitable software for public servers with 50+ concurrent users on 1 instance which are assumed to be hostile and want to exploit, dupe or crash your server at all times. They specifically do not want technical Minecraft contraptions to work because the same bugs that allow them to work also allow bad actors to make the experience hell for everyone else.
Showing Edge with “he who controls the default” was spot on
I have been saying this for years now, but no one believed me. Thanks for making this video so I don't have to spend hours arguing!
Once i was playing minecraft together with my friend, and i built a completely automatic woodfarm. But the tnt duper didnt work and me and my friend spent hours trying to fix that. Meanwhile, we also spend hours trying to break bedrock on the nether roof.
Now i know it was probably a paper server.
Thank you, now i will check that first bevor building huge farms
I got really excited joining a Skyblock survival game just to find that pistons were disabled.
That has nothing to do with paper or fabric... The server owner decided to do that.
@@Chiaros I wasn't talking about paper disabling it, just that it was disabled... he was talking about technical players having issues with servers... it goes beyond just servers running paper.
Thanks for making this video, I'm def changing my friend group's server to Fabric
20:30 I can whole heartedly say that even to those like me who understand very little about redstone, the community providing breakthroughs over and over in the same system which hardly gets updated( ok it gets updated but you get the point) leaves us speechless. Redstone is the most dynamic system in minecraft, and is on par with building atleast imo.
Some new components are added time to time but the core mechanic of redstone itself has hardly ever been updated
At the same time thats also kind of the beauty of redstone. Its possible to do very complex tasks with a very simple set of components. It doesnt really need as frequent updates.
I think its awesome that most of the stuff that gets invented could have been done back in 1.16, but nobody has done it before. You as an individual can actually make a difference.
Also, the updates are not as rare as you might think. Slimeblocks, observers, honeyblocks, targetblocks, glazed terracotta, sculk sensors, leafstone, scaffoldings, shulkers, music disk signal strength, allays, copper bulbs, windcharges... all of those are revolutionary components for the technical community.
There are 3 flavors of Minecraft: Java Edition, Bedrock Edition and Paper Edition.
corrections: Minecraft: good, Minecraft: peformance with the power of 50 billion bugs, and "Minecraft"
fabric enjoyers just keep on winning
so true
is there any anticheat for fabric tho?
@@bacalhau_seco There's always a mod for anything (but it might be server-side though)
theres tons of anticheats available for fabric if you care about that kind of thing@@bacalhau_seco
Fabric is like 10x slower on my PC than paper unfortunately
My friend opened a server for a couple people before and by default the server host has paper installed and I had to ask my friend to change so many settings because everything I like to do the paper devs disabled. I like building farms, going on top of the nether, making block dupe contraptions and none of these work by default. Sure these are fine as options for big servers but they shouldn't be the default settings. I hate pretty much any mod that nerfs or "fixes" or generally just changes anything about the base game that I like, which happens to be a pretty big problem with minecraft and terraria mods.
Thanks for you video and I hope you don't take my comment too personal, I admit it is quite confrontational - but I hope the feedback can still be of use in some shape or another. And I want to preface it to say that I 100% understand being sick of getting the "it no work in spigot" comments and questions - and that this has likely colored the video a fair bit. Either way these are some of things I reacted to while watching you video.
The whole segment about deleting the world file while the server is running is probably meant as a workflow thing, where it takes time to "reset", but I find it to be a pretty contrived example, and it's not at all paper exclusive. You would have the same issues with a vanilla server. Having to make workflow adjustments to fit multiplayer isn't a "problem" it's just different. There are likely to be solutions (in this case a worldedit snapshot) that would work just as well.
This somewhat applies to the litematica pasting as well. Your modded client _is_ sending a lot of packets, and this is a valid concern for a server that serves potentially untrusted users to have. Using a serverside mod like worldedit to paste your schematic would work here, and is also largely what is happening in a single player world. I don't know if you couldn't get the same problem with an unmodded vanilla minecraft server.
Another point here is that you find it obvious that carpetmod can disable explosions, and that you cant find a plugin that does something similar. Firstly a quick google search of "disable tnt explosions bukkit" leads to multiple candidates, wheras finding a solution for vanillla minecraft without already knowing about carpetmod is comparatively similar in difficulty to what you describe.
I'd also argue that in the same way you find carpetmods functionality obvious, someone with any bukkit experience would find it obvious that worldguard has this feature (toggleable per region!). WorldGuard being the go-to world protection/anti-griefing plugin. So again this point is an adjustment of workflow or a point mostly about your ignorance of the ecosystem. (This was unfair, see EDIT 1)
You keep making a point about restarting the server and calling it "excrutiating", aside from the fact that you might have been able to get away with a /paper reload (I don't know), this sounds so whiny. It takes what 2 seconds? You never have to reload a world in singleplayer?
The whole three folders for the three levels is a common complaint but paper actually converts normal worlds into this split level folder structure automatically (unless of course these regions already exist - like if you start the server, generate a new world, then replace the overworld with your vanilla save)
"realize we dont have creative noclip" - again a workflow thing that peppers the video with negativity. Though I admit I do not have a readily available alternative for you. Maybe binding a tp switch world to a worldedit tool in this specific case - but that's not really something that encompasses everything you can do with noclip.
The gamerule is a real difference and something I would consider a bug as well. Some sleuthing leads me to believe the issue manifests differently on spigot and paper, and also that the vanilla rule is kind of poorly defined - with bug reports about how it also having the sideeffect of not loading chunks being open on the minecraft issue tracker for some time.
The feigned awe and surprise at paper implementing a vanilla minecraft feature is again just poor taste imo. We've had tickwarps in bukkit before, back in the forge days with forgebukkit and some tickwarp sleeping mods. It's not up to paper to make technical minecraft tools, it's clearly out of scope and that's fine. It's great that minecraft has it in the base game now.
The actual content here - showing how paper differs, trying to find out why and even changing the config files to try work around its limitation is very valuable - and information about this is something a large part of the causal viewerbase probably needs. Server operators should be taking the technichal minecraft compat issues into account when picking their solution! Sometimes for some playerbases the tradeoffs are worth it.
An apt example is the mob switch you show off. Paper's mob spawning algorithm is different, and sure it breaks mob switches, maybe even the shulker farm is affected. But the tradeoff is a more uniform and subjectively "fair" mob spawning experience for players. A single mobfarm can't monopolise all the alloted slots and so on. This is a completely valid feature a server operator could want.
Even when things break it's almost always the kinds of things that live on the edge of what is possible with redstone, or things that rely on tight timings. The comparison is really more like paper/spigot being a third edition of minecraft that is very similar to java edition and one shouldn't expect technical builds to transfer 1:1 without any adjustments. This is again not an issue for many servers out there because they build their own farms on the server from the start, or don't build that many farms.
Autocrafting macros not working as in vanilla is pretty unexpected (aide from ratelimiting), but again this is such a specific example - which many playerbases would even frown upon as something cheating adjacent. So this is not really a downside for many.
That being said you are right: paper is an outdated recommendation to make to people who wants a simple vanilla-esque server - fabric performance mods, serverside utlity mods, and even vanilla datapacks can replace really most of paper and the plugins such a server needs. Yet paper is still recommended all the time (maybe because it's not that many years since it was essentially the only possible option for an ok experience - the 1.1.4 - 1.17 era was rough with for example the fish pathfinding and slow chunkloading).
Paper's changes have been made for a reason, most of the time lag, often for anticheat, sometimes for plugin-capabilities, and sometimes for just someone's opinion and subjective "bugsmashing". Pretending this is some kind of malice isnt very productive or fair I think.
All in all I think papers downsides speak enough for itself, especially in modern times where fabric mods provide a much better alternative. But I think the video could get that across without making some of the workflow complaints and a more neutral tone. I don't think I can really send this video to someone who knows a lot about bukkit and have them convinced their decision is wrong. Because they will see through the points that are more subjective and that sows doubt about your statements in the rest of the video. The second part is much better regarding this. But is still largely just looking at 1:1 ports of builds.
There are ideas here like there probably being room for differences in redstone interactions like what you find in bedrock, MCHPRS, vanilla, vs spigot and paper, but also to some degree just differences in minecraft versions. Builds always have to be adjusted and made for each flavor, and that's fine. It's also fine to only play certain flavors. but again describing these differences as "hostile" is something I can't necessarily entirely agree with. I certainly also prefer the vanilla flavor, but technical minecraft players are _very_ hard to please since we depend on a much larger and much more detailed set of features.
For servers with custom server-resource packs we don't really see the same complaints from builders having to make adjustments to their palettes (though this isnt nearly as prevalent as paper - so that might also be why). In a similar vein I think technical minecraft players who play on paper servers can also largely adapt to the different rules, you just can't copy and paste a design from someone else (something that might even be good! - but that's a whole other discussion). Maybe it would be nice if the video had a "designing something in paper vs desigining something in vanilla" part for a look at the differences here. Just an idea.
Again thanks for the video and the opportunity for this discussion
EDIT 1: I see you've now responded that world guard explosion protection deletes the tnt before explosion, so that explains that
There is a good video by surpriseTea "spigot/papermc is not vanilla and it's broken". I think it brings the point across much better
I talked to people in the Papermc discord server and I see you do the same here.
People see this video as a direct attack on Papermc and thus take every point of the video as such.
Cubicmetre having a hard time because he needs to restart the server every time is evidently a skill issue.
When he comments on a clip as long as maybe 5 seconds saying he can't fly through blocks this isn't somehow a complaint to paper, of course paper doesn't support carpet mod, They are entirely different ways of modifying the game. But don't take this on an attack to paper this is more like putting a fish out of water, water being where all your convenient mods are.
This video is barely a video for Papermc but rather a video for his viewers that might not need paper and might choose to then run fabric for their technical builds.
I definitely see a lot of hate to papermc and I have experience from where it comes from myself. If you look at some of the top comments on this video you'll see people absolutely burnt after playing on smaller paper servers and all that hate goes to papermc.
Personally I think papermc fills a gap that fabric cannot fill entirely. But now that this video has brought some attention I do think that papermc can improve in many ways.
There are so many things I can ask for but I think one of them stands out as more important:
Papermc has a default configuration when creating a fresh server. I think this default configuration is a core issue since it tries to capture all paper servers as a whole even though they are way too diverse. There are many paper server owners that don't really know what they are doing, but they do host for a whole lot more players as well.
Make it easier for them to choose a preset to their needs. If they want to keep redstone to mostly vanilla mechanics then let them do that. Make it obvious to them; Don't just make a document. You need to work with inexperienced players that might not take more than an hour to set up their first server. Put it in their face and explain to them roughly what they are choosing. If they want to enable tnt duping and it's mechanics to the fullest extent then they get an option for that without having to go through a daunting configuration text full of exploits they have never heard of.
When we have a player in our discord running paper and we can tell them just simply do `/paper config vanilla-mechanics true` and that fixes even 20% of their requests broken by paper then that will be AMAZING. With how large papermc is and how much it "decides" how people play you should take it to your own hands to whitelist certain plugins that for example optimize performance but keep vanilla mechanics and help server owners find these to fit their needs.
Yeah I found this video incredibly hard to watch because of everything you say here. It’s literally just whinging, and most criticisms aren’t even valid…
"Paper's changes have been made for a reason, most of the time lag, often for anticheat, sometimes for plugin-capabilities, and sometimes for just someone's opinion and subjective "bugsmashing". Pretending this is some kind of malice isnt very productive or fair I think." the issue is sometime their bug fix are just horible, a good example is with nicnac's skipper for 1.19, its a very small contraption that can make a lot of update very fast and thus lag server, patching it is good. But their patch was literally to check for every redstone dust if bellow them was an open trap door, they could have just fix the update system but no. (this was patch in 1.20 by mojang, and they fix their update system)
"but again describing these differences as "hostile" is something I can't necessarily entirely agree with" The issue is their patch 1 are undocumented 2 have a lot of side effect (like slowing down server, kill entity, ect), thing that degrade UX and tech player notice it a lot since we are the ppl who play MC the most.
"I certainly also prefer the vanilla flavor, but technical minecraft players are very hard to please since we depend on a much larger and much more detailed set of features." Yes, but you can see the tech community as a stack, patch something that only fan on update suppression uses and not a lot will get mad, it will not affect everyone who use less niche and useful bug, patch the number of entity tick and you piss off the entire tech comunity, it affect all entity based farms, it affect tnt duping, it affect update suppression, it affect everything that touch to entity and here more ppl will get mad.
"In a similar vein I think technical minecraft players who play on paper servers can also largely adapt to the different rules" Yes, but it would be way easier to know the rules, we would need to have a doc about what they change and what settings is on the server but currently we can't know.
i read all this and agree, i also made a comment of my own depicting my experiences with papermc and its devs as a server owner. i've used both fabric and papermc for years.
I've been running an SMP server since the start of this year and slowly but surely I'm starting to hate paper with a passion. We don't really have a lot of technical players per say but even the average joe runs into a brick wall when trying to build a storage system or a small perimeter digging machine, besides that half the plugins we install straight up don't work and trying to find a version of it that does work is a wild goose chase. With the release of 1.21 we are switching to fabric. Thank you for pointing this abomination out to the world!
Paper does not create its own plugins, I don't really think you should blame it if you find broken plugins. That's like blaming fabric itself if you find a broken mod.
@@amgelo5636 I'm not really blaming Paper for the plugins, I just wanted to point out how fucked the whole ecosystem is
We inlcuded a mail sorting system into one of our projects that allows you to rename pieces of paper to send a shulker box to a specific location inside the build.
Only problem is: Paper ""optimizes"" the game by removing one of the default item tags, RepairCost to be exact. So if you rename an item on a vanilla world and then try to stack it with one created on a paper server, killing any kind of sorting system that relies on renamed items. We had tons of people complain about the system not working while on our server it would just work fine. And while I get that the repair cost of an item with no durability is completely pointless, it still seems like a massive oversight by the devs.
I was fully prepared for a full 24 minutes of that the minute it started
as an fabric mod developer, i say that server-side mod > bukkit plugin
That makes sense. Both of the servers I play on don't use Paper, one is vanilla, and one is a heavily modded Forge server. At this point, I'm a technical player, mostly due to computer science courses changing how I play the game, just with nowhere near your level of understanding of Minecraft mechanics.
I absolutely hate how I can't make anything in paper servers
not even basic dupers are allowed
I love that in the list of mods, there’s essential addons for 1.18 and 1.19
Some in the comments are missing the point cubic is making when bellyaching about having to deal with server mechanics (even basic ones like not being able to delete the world files until you shut the server down). The point is that in order to do any testing of builds on Paper, he'd HAVE to set up a server, as he doesn't have the option to do it in true single player like he normally would. Meaning that in order to adequately respond to the high volume of comments he gets asking about making things that work on Paper (the starting point of the whole video), he would have to go through that process every time for even basic testing, never mind complex troubleshooting, and for him that's just an unnecessary hassle that wouldn't be worth it.
And while Paper may have its place for servers with player numbers in the triple digits and a focus on plugin-based minigames and PVP, and may edge out Fabric servers on performance and features in those use cases, its ubiquity means server owners clearly often end up using it when it's not necessary or even optimal, leading to frequent confusion and frustration from players trying to do complex redstone things and finding they can't make them work because the defaults and under-the-hood changes are so destructive (just look at this comment section).
I think this is a fair assessment for what he intended with all the workflow comments. But it's also fair to call out that this is categorically different from a critique of paper itself. The video doesn't really bother to differentiate and heavilly implies that this is a problem caused by paper (exclusively). Rather than the truth which is just "a server based workflow is something I don't prefer/haven't developed". The title is also "the problem with paper" but then goes in depth about these workflow features, so I think the critique is warranted
@@DanielLvbrtteOlsen I'd agree with you apart from the fact that a "server-based workflow" is irrelevant for server software that doesn't change vanilla mechanics. If you're designing for vanilla mechanics, the worst-case scenario on vanilla-compatible servers is making sure the timings hold up under server conditions.
We started our community on a paper server that I hosted. At some point it became such a headache for our storage that I researched other ways of hosting and we ended up on a fabric server with comparable mods as what you showed. Our machines now only fail if we make a mistake instead of weird server errors.
Preaching to the choir, mate xD
Ran a paper server for my friends for a few weeks because I heard it has good performance, discovered that enabling sand duping isn't a config option, never run a paper server since.
and hey - thank you for the modlist. you’ve made technical minecraft more accessible to at least one other person!
keep up the great work you do to make technical minecraft interesting and accessible! i appreciate it :)
Been watching for a while man, keep up the good work! Love the new style of content with more humor
And this is a significant improvement for Paper. Years back, I was helping a friend run a minecraft server that was on Paper, and I saw a cool technical build - some tunnel boring machine - and decided to build it. Spent so many hours on it. And it didn't work at all, destroyed itself immediately. I then tested and tested and found out Paper was mucking up the redstone, the tnt duping, the chunkloading, the physics, literally every single part of it. I reported the problems, and got an "This is our vision, those are bugs, we fixed them, this is better" back, and spent a good few weeks arguing with them that stuff should be a config if you're going to change the entire game that we all know and love at it's most fundamental level. They told me to go play something else, they knew best and wouldn't be changing it or adding any configs into it, because they didn't like duping exploits and all the physics weren't needed they just slowed the game down.
I ended up just giving up, and leaving very, very dissatisfied, and have made sure to let everyone who will listen know how much I dislike Paper. It's cool to do your own thing as someone developing something, but I'll never understand taking something like Minecraft, breaking it entirely in the name of "optimization" and then refusing to allow people to choose what features they want to disable. I can understand having stuff disabled by default, even, if you feel it's a bug and shouldn't exist, but to not even have an option is pretty wild. All while other optimizations manage to do it better than you do, without ruining the core game.
The news that they've added config options for some of that stuff is pretty wild, given how adamant they were about never allowing anything of the sort.
Paper has always annoyed me. For a server i played with friends on we had paper, and it basically made everything impossible. It was possible to turn tnt and sand duping back on but what annoyed me the most was that chunkloaders do not work at all and can't even be turned on in the config.
I appreciate you effort going this far to demostrate the problem with paper by running actual test server.
A while ago, before the change to iron farms, I built an auto-resseting iron farm which stacked 128 villages, color me surprised when it didn't work.
I played on a server for a while, and as I started getting into the midgame and building farms, things kept breaking. Not just redstone either, entities disappearing and villagers freezing their AI. The community was very pleasant, but I ended up quitting because the actual gameplay was miserable. I'm not even that technical of a player, I just like it when basic machines work consistently. After seeing this video, I bet the server was using paper or something similar.
Thank you for this video! Especially the section on how performance can be even better with a fabric server than paper. Convinced me to swap my server over to fabric
I played on a Hypixel SMP (uses Paper) for a while and even the most basic farms broke almost immediately which is why I started running my own fabric server. Thanks for showing in depth the faults of paper servers.
And if you've ever played around with vanilla command creations, they have some of the same issues on highly degraded server software such as Paper as well.
We ran our building server on spigot for a few months but found it too limiting and annoying having to restart if I wanted to change something. Honestly the fabric modding scene is so much better than anything else.
So the australia shaped chesthair was a Saxton Hale reference, epic tf2 lore moment.
I remember the first time that I set up a private server for me and my friends. we wanted to do some smaller mods and I decided to go with paper, simply because I had heard of it and thought it was a good reputable server JAR to use. Boy was I wrong not only did half of the farms we had on the vanilla world that I imported break, but it was running notably worse than the vanilla server I previously had. Sure enough, after hours of troubleshooting and painstaking research, I discovered the countless custom rules in the server properties file that just break or turn off vanilla mechanics in the name of "performance optimizations". Needless to say, when I then imported the original vanilla world file to a server on a Fabric JAR, everything worked perfectly fine and ran smoother to boot. I haven't touched paper since then and don't plan to ever again.
Sounds about right. You made the right choice.
I make a server with friends every year and we had been using paper for a while but as we got better at the game we started noticing a lot of broken game mechanics. A simple hopper arrangement or dropper elevator just don't work. I lost my mind trying to build them. It was just random when they worked and when they didn't. Stopped playing because of it. Never going to use it again. Already started to make a fabric mod list. Ty for making this video. It's just pain playing on paper.
finally a video that allows me to visually demonstrate to people why I never use paper on my server
I spent 6 years playing on a paper server, and I had to resort to using private explois and workarounds (like how it was on 1.12.2 and thus didn't receive modern patches), but then it updated and was made even worse than I would have ever imagined.
I play the game very casually, not even on a technical level, and I thought I was the only one who used Fabric as a server software just because it ran so much better than Paper and oddities (even in casual play) don't happen anywhere near as often. Thanks for getting this out there
Yo, guys, you know what would be sick for him to make. Hear me out: orbital cannon using the exploding arrow trick to locate the player and blows up their current location, turning yourself into a nuclear level creeper.
The last resort
This was one of the funnier videos, different from all the red stone contraptions. Nice vid👍
So THIS is why my redstoning experience on servers has been so god damn awful! I don't really play on servers nowadays cause almost every server I've tried to join has just broken all my redstone builds.
I remember one particularly bad experience on EarthMC. I was an employee at a redstone engineering company that made farms and stuff for players around the server. I would spend hours creating the right contraption for the job, only to import it and have everything break. Hopper timers would be so inconsistent, repeater clocks would just break, and so many bizarre little bugs would make me have to design the entire thing in server. The entire company eventually broke up cause all the engineers got fed up with the server mechanics. So sad such an integral part of the minecraft community gets shafted by most servers.
I used to try out those "optimized" versions of minecraft servers, believing it would help optimize my single player gaming experience but you're correct, it just led to a rabbithole of confusing and illogical restrictions on the game itself. Fortunately now we have Fabric and I don't use anything else.
I can answer the controller question : I use gyroscope aiming ! Sticks are terrible for aiming, but with gyroscope I’m as precise as with a mouse !
And I can instantly turn to any direction that’s a little too far thank to flick stick.
I wouldn’t recommend it for filming videos though. The movement can be pretty nauseating when you’re not the one driving it.
I am aware that controllers offer some benefits for movement when combined with gyroscope and flick sticks but what I am saying is that they are badly suited to tasks which require precise aiming at a specific spot for extended periods of time. Like imagine trying to place a row of top slabs against a wall consistently with a gyro controller, the slightest movement and you end up placing bottom slabs.
You can disable the gyro temporarily when you want to
@@cubicmetreIts not actually that bad. Consider splatoon, a shooter game series played (almost) entirely with gyro, which obviously requires a lot of precision at top level, but people can play that just fine haha
@@nintySW Play how you want to play, but a mouse with no mouse acceleration from windows will have your hand move directly to the point where you want your cursor to arrive. Using a controller will always be a game of timing where you hold the stick in a position for long enough until it arrives at location. Sure professionals might get really good but it will just be less convenient.
@@nintySWas a splatoon player I can attest that gyro would be horrid for trying to place a row of top slabs.
There’s a bug that causes drift specifically when you try to keep the cursor still.
It is a bug though so if it ever got fixed it would probably be fine.
Yoooooo, my guy has RStudio and MATLAB just chillin' in the taskbar, you love to see it
Oké, i absolutely didn’t know you could join a server which has mods on vannila..
I’m going to try to switch my server to fabric too, also becease of the better server optimisation you showed.
Thanks cubic 🎉
Same
has to be server side mods, stuff like lithium and carpet, since they only run on the server a vanilla client can join, just like how client side mods can still run on vanilla servers. but mids that run on both will still need to be installed on both (you wont be able to join a server with create on your vanilla client for example)
Having suffered through PaperMC jank for almost a decade now, seeing one of technical minecraft's best players yell "GOD DAMMIT" at Paper is cathartic to say the least
This video is literaly my entire minecraft experience described xD
I discovered minecraft about 3 years ago, been running my own server for more than 2 years (paper server as that's what i knew from my first server experience).
I also very quickly fell in love with redstone and technical minecraft. Didn't take too much time before I ran into the first paper issue.
Since then i kinda specialized in running more and more complexe redstone machines on paper servers and attempt to balance the configs to keep the redstone working.
Been running large tunnel bores and world eaters, millions items per hour farms and even some models of stacking raidfarms.
But it is a challenge for sure to make those wonderfull machines fonction correctly on paper server. Also not everything is fixable, things like mobswitches and update skipping in my experience do not work.
yeah i play on a server that uses a bukkit/paper fork called pufferfish and im just afraid to even attempt any kind of technical build. at least i get to enjoy being a builder instead
Holy shit in glad you pointed out the superiority complex the paper devs have feeling as if theyre in chsrge if everything
im a small server owner that uses paper, and you've convinced me! ill start messing with fabric and see if i can get it the way i need it to be
The issue with servers going against technical gameplay is that the common player doesn't optimize their builds.
In 2017, DieBuddiesZocken did a collab with PitForge, their first money farm was sugar cane, but then they started to make fully automatic cacti farms, and their fans copied them, of course.
This led to the overabundance of cacti farms on all servers. (but most of all on the server they played on) They even visited bases of others and encouraged them to build bigger.
The result of their actions: lag as far as the eye can see. And they couldn't tell that cacti farms were the cause, as the money from them was too great to acknowledge fault.
But rescue came from other servers, they together farmed up at least 20 creeper spawn eggs, got inside their base, and not only raided them, but griefed their base.
This devastated the TH-camrs, they quit on the same day they found their base in shambles. The lag declined after 2 weeks, and so did their moderation of the whole server.
its for that the economy need to change, to prevent big farm running 24/7. A french minecraft minigame called "cité" uses this, in "cité" player are in team and need to farm and gain money to win (this minigame date to ~2011 irrc). Most of "cité" now have an economy that change between day so they can't just make a huge cactus farm as it would waste too much time.
I'm so happy that there are more Fabric Server Operators. I'm so over the Bukkit ecosystem.
As a public server owner that can't develop mods/plugins, it feels like paper is mandatory since almost no plugin got a fabric equivalent. But yeah it took (and still takes) hours to debug which default settings is breaking a core mechanic of the game..
i think the biggest issue is anti-cheat, unless your server is full of obscure plugins with weird funtionalities you can probably find a fabric mod for it on modrinth.
but anticheat, i cant find any
Just a head's up, most plugins will work with any spigot fork (like Paper), so you can kind of experiment around to find one that works best for you- of course, any plugins made specifically for Paper won't work. Also, assuming you like technical stuff given that you watch this channel, I highly recommend trying out mod or plugin development sometime! The hardest part is just setting up the work environment, the actual coding isn't too bad, especially for plugins- I learned most of my early programming knowledge from developing one-off plugins lol o_O
Thank you for this! It's been needing to be talked about.
I once installed Paper for my server on a raspberry pi. After some playtime, I blew up by an invisible creeper, along other weird stuff going on. Never installed Paper again.
I 100% agree. I have a server for my friends using paper for the lobby and survival worlds and the survival worlds have some… odd bugs
3:42 "And now, TNT duplication works perfectly!"
[The roman empire falling in the forground]
1:10 - Well, there was a period where I had injured my back and couldn't use a mouse, but I mostly ended up playing DOOM with a controller then.
You're my favourite MC content creator. I'm so sick of creators pandering to 13 year olds. As a 20yr doing a Bsc you are just the best!
absolutely BRUTAL takedown. hats off to you. this is going in the mix.