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@anushghosh4606 I hope you feel better soon. I'd like to recommend some physical exercise if possible. Any time I'm feeling stressed out or down or anything, the best thing I find is lifting weights and letting off steam. Or doing push-ups/sit-ups/planks/etc. if you don't have access to equiment. Others find a lot of benefit in going for run or walks, getting out into nature if possible. I used to struggle a lot with anxiety as a teenager, but daily exercise has done wonders to alleviate that
@@LeftonReplay thank you for the advice, comrade. I really appreciate it. Working for 10 hours for 5 days a week is gruelling but I'll try going for walks over the weekend.
When I moved from Belfast to Dublin I suddenly found I kept running into people who utterly fucking love "Zombie" and think it's just the most insightful and meaningful peice of social commentary ever penned... It was painful and confusing. So, thanks in advance.
People need to remember that even Gandhi, who did believe that nonviolent direct action was a viable means of liberation, supported the violence of the oppressed over the violence of the oppressor. There's a great bit about this from one of his letters. A man wrote to him, saying that because of his adherence to Gandhi's nonviolent teachings, people were slapping him and making him feel ashamed and helpless. Gandhi's response was that, if he truly felt ashamed, then he had no choice but to hit the bullies back, but that he should also consider why he felt ashamed. Failure to support the violence of the oppressed is a form of oppressive violence, and people who are serious about nonviolence as liberation acknowledge that.
A super interesting factor about the opening dialogue is that it isn’t actually neutral Asriel points out that the very line “those who climb the mountain never return” is part of a legend, and wonders why Frisk would go to a place like that The intro is a human tale, which is very telling when you think about how the humans are shirked of their blame in the story, it’s just a war that broke out, on equal sides, but the truth is much darker
@@DM-Oz The monsters don't have the same incentive to lie or dissemble about the evens of their genocide and imprisonment as the perpetrators of that genocide and imprisonment have. Besides which, Undertale is a work of fiction, so such nuances don't really apply - it is plainly Toby Fox's intent that the monster telling of the story is the truthful one, and if there was any further nuance to it, then a canon scene would be present adding that nuance like with the difference between Undyne's violence and Flowey's.
@@shadowthespikythingy Monsters say that humans had nothing to fear since they're too strong for their souls to he absorbed by monsters. At the same time, monsters perfectly knew what happens when a monster absorbs a human soul and how such a monster looks like but it is stated to be unknown what happens when a human absorbs a monster soul because "it never happened." Yeah, sure.
@@justauser6078 I mean... Is it really that improbable? The only monster souls to be absorbed would be boss monsters'. You could argue that it happened out of the view of monsters, but the game shows how rare of a happening boss monsters existing is.
This a prety good video and you are definitely correct that Undertale's message on violence isn't just "violence bad". But I think you were wrong about a few things. The game isn't against you using violence on the monsters, just you killing them. Most monsters (including Papyrus) will spare you if you keep attacking until they are at low health, so you can through most of the pacifist route only using the fight and mercy button and you can still complete the pacifist route as long as you make the effort to befriend Papyrus, Undyne and Alphys. So, Undertale is fine with us using violence as long as we are careful not to use excessive force and make an effort to ensure no one is left terribly shaken by our actions (befriending the main characters). You can also get the pacifist route even if you do nothing but insult Papyrus and Undyne when "befriending" them but this might just be for the funnies and not have any narrative significance. The protagonist in the genocide route is explicity said not to be a human by both Flowey and Sans. Several monsters who recognise the protagonist as a human in other routes don't in the genocide route including both Undyne (human... no, whatever you are") and Asgore (who has even seen the war with his own eyes). The in lore reason for this is that Chara is no longer a human because they have lost their soul after death ("Your not really human are you? No. You're empty inside, just like me." "I have a plan to become all powerful, even more powerful than you and your stolen soul.") However, from a narrative perspective us and Chara are being distanced from humanity and if you're interpretation of Undertale is correct, the oppressor group of Undertale. The monsters see us and think not "See? We were right!" But instead that we are not a human at all. We aren't like the original humans who commited genocide against the monsters to ensure they monsters wouldn't eradicate them later on but instead we are like Flowey, someone who kills others for his own entertainment. Although this might not be the case since Chara and the player in the genocide route are intentionally seperate in both history and motives (Chara kills for power and most players do the genocide route out of curiosity, something Toby knows because Sans also seems to think we are killing out of curiosity, "not because of any desire for "good" or "evil" but just because you think you can. and because you can, you have to.") Not only this but in the genocide route we are told by both Undyne and Mettaton that we will destroy humanity, ("If you get past me, you'll destroy them all won't you? Humans, monsters, everyone's hopes vanquished in an instant.", "After our last meeting I made a ghastly realisation. You won't just destroy monsters but humanity as well.") We/Chara aren't just said to not be human but the enemy of humanity itself. Toby does everything to distance our actions in the genocide route from the conflict between humans and monsters, instead making us/Chara an evil third party who is an enemy to both groups and part of neither. To add onto this, Chara does not function properly as a symbol of oppression because Chara hates humanity. In Asriel's dialogue he mentions Chara's hatred for humanity right after saying they climbed Mt Ebott for a "not very happy reason", so, Asriel is linking Chara's hatred of humanity to Chara's decision to climb Mt Ebott and surprisingly not Chara's decision to attack to humans in his dialogue (although this obviously doesn't mean hatred of humanity wasn't Chara's motives). Asriel is telling us that Chara hated humanity so much they would rather die on Mt Ebott than live in the human world. They really, really, really hate humanity. Infact, it is possible that Chara is actually motivated by the desire to gain power in the genocide route only so they can destroy humanity via either erasing the world or via the soulless pacifist route (if you do pacifist after genocide it will be shown that Chara has full control of Frisk's body and plans to do evil things, pressumably starting another human monster war). Having a large part of Chara's character being their hatred for humanity makes them a terrible representation of oppression in the narrative you are presenting. Lastly, while Undyne is adored by MK at the start of the pacifist route if you talk to him at the end of pacifist route he will tell you that "Maybe Undyne isn't as cool as we thought. I mean, she's just kind of mean." So, while the game makes a distinction between oppressive and libertory violence, Undyne is someone who uses excessive force since she doesn't speak only of freeing the monster race but also giving the humans back "the suffering and pain [the monsters] have endured". Only in the genocide route is she dubbed the true hero when she is fighting to save the world. We've got Mettaton who wants to save humanity. He's probably narratively important or something. This comment is long.
I commented something similar to this and I saw a lot of people agreeing with this video without question, very few people commented on the mistakes and I'm starting to think this video could spread misinformation, Undertale is a very heavy anti war game, when someone analyzes something but ignores key facts to help out the agenda, that's not cool. Overall, every character in this game has their own troughs and ideas, they don't act as a collective oppressed group.
There's also the fact that Chara says the player put them on their current path, that it was the player's will and determination that drove them forward. They refer to their suicide and attempt to collect more souls as "our plan", as in they and Asriel were in on it together, and not "my plan" which would be used if they were tricking Asriel. The human Chara may not of been the greatest person when they were alive, but I don't think it makes sense for them to be portrayed as completely evil either. Especially since the only ones who get that kind of characterization are Flowey, soulless Chara, and the player in the genocide route.
Any analysis video for Undertale is bound to not be quite right, and thats namely because there isn’t a correct analysis. There are just different perspectives from people who lived different lives and what they can reflect off the game with their wisdom. I do agree with the Chara points but I thought the video by all means wasn’t a bad one at all. The only thing that gets me is the fact that a lot of these videos go much deeper into meaning than Toby Fox most likely meant for it to be. Reading in between the lines when there might not be all that much to interpret, and it ends up over-glorifying what the game is. But then again its hard to say that either because even what the game tells you it is, is subjective. Although not all takes should be accepted because with a game that includes genocide there are bound to be people who will takeaway bad things because they want to.
I think you missed a crucial point about Undyne, especially on the genocide route. Undyne stops addressing the Frisk as "the human" and comes to the conclusion that it isn't just about monsters anymore. The creature before her is an enemy to the whole world, monsters AND humans. Knowing this Undyne becomes the TRUE hero by essentially fighting for the whole world. Other than that, very interesting analysis!
I think there might be an interesting point to be made here on how fascism inevitably turns in on itself - if it has no outgroup left to oppress, then the ingroup will become more restrictive or it will cease to be fascism. Fascism, in this case, is analogous to the genocide route imo. You can have obviously have oppression and genocide in other systems, but in fascism, the most extreme form of group supremacy, there isn't really any for you to just... Stop and call it a day after you complete your main goal at the time, and Undyne recognizes this here.
It kinda makes no sense. Undyne also wanted to murder all humans, so when (according to her) she somehow came to the conclusion that the human murdering only 1% of the monster population also for whatever reason wants to kill humans as well, she somehow gets a random power boosts and somehow knows that the humans wants to stop you too?????
@@ultimate_capper3643 She wanted to murder all humans because she is younger in the story she didn't even participated in war, the only ones that were are Asgore himself, Toriel probably and Gerson who was known as the Hammer of justice. So rather she only knew the one side of an story, she never saw a human and still was able to recognize the main protagonist, her prediction was rather based on what she felt, Undyne's character is rather straight forward as you can tell from the pacifist that character is one of those types have an idea, realize that idea, and think through idea after realizing it along with caused consequences. In short Undyne acts first and thinks later.
@@rafsandomierz5313 I am aware that she was not present in the war or even encountered a real human up until the human fell down. What I am saying is that it makes no sense for her to randomly claim that the human wants to kill all of humans and undyne somehow gains a power boost because she wants to protect them as well despite the fact that she wanted to murder the humans too.
neat video, but I wanted to state a correction that I didn't see anyone else in the comments make. The majority of monsters are not attacking Frisk because Frisk is human. In fact, very few monsters are able to recognize Frisk as human. The monsters "attack" Frisk because, for their species, magic and bullet hell patterns are used as a way to communicate. The monsters are just trying to communicate or interact with Frisk, not knowing that as a human they are hurting them. (For example, Woshua is trying to wash you, Shyren is just sing, Napstablook is just crying, Vegetoid is just trying to give you food, also there's a note in the game about monsters giving each other bullet hell birthday cards.)
Indeed. It seems to me that none of the monsters truly wanted to attack the main character. Also, and this wasn't taken into notice at the beginning of the video: how do the monsters know that they can claim the souls of humans? If not by killing one or more before?
@@yalovoyhznepomny In the snowdin library there is a book that talks about the nature of monsters and humans, in this book there is a line about how the complex bullet patterns of the monsters is how they show emotion to each other, and they question how humans can express emotions now that they cant use bullet patterns.
One thing about Undertale is that in the game you have the *choice* to talk or fight. Even if you take the game at face-value, the moral isn't "violence is wrong", but instead "*choosing* violence is wrong".
I really love this, very poignant way of putting it. The moral isn't "violence is wrong", but instead *"choosing* violence is wrong". A bit like how it's not "money is the root of all evil" but "the love of money is the root of all evil".
I used to write this game off as deviant art/tumblr crap back when it came out. I even took it less seriously when Sans became a shitpost. Once I gave the game a chance it had me in tears by the end. I was taken aback at how thoughtful and nuanced it was. The resemblances between the story and Che Guevara’s motorcycle diaries also struck me. With regards on how both stories show when one is ripped from their privileged lifestyles and come face to face with the oppressed, ignorance can be destroyed once perspective grows. And virtuous traits would bloom.
I think it's also important to note that in Undyne's initial speec she notes that Frisk isn't going to stop against Monsters after they are all dead. She mentions that even humans will die directly stating that EVERYONE, not every monster, has hearts being as one with her own.
Well yes, when the oppressors run out of an "other" to put below them after having killed them all, they will cannibalize their own group and find other reasons to put people below them. They will never be at peace because their fear stems from seemingly not having a way to prove they are the best.
@@yep1486 that's _after_ certain experiences where she draws that conclusion, which do not happen to her during the geno route. she's an imperfect person and becomes extremely vengeful if you ravage everything she cares about and leave, but if you're straight up seeking out and systematically eliminating every trace of life in the underground she recognizes just how dire it is, that you're on your way to just straight up end everything
This video nearly made me cry... Thanks for showing the truth about oppression and Liberation of oppressed. I'm expecting more videos from you and I hope your messages get to other people too.
Delighted to hear this video had such an impact on you. It's a game that always manages to tug on the aul' heartstrings in some way or another. Plenty more to come on this channel - this is just the beginning, Cheers Fallenburg 🍻
When it comes to the genocide route while frisk is continuing the path of violence the game also emphasizes that they are no longer even human. frisk doesn’t do this out of a fear of losing power like the humans, but just to kill and also the game kind of implies that frisk doesn’t care who they are, they will kill them when undyne says she will save the whole world and I think that a part of her being a true hero is not only that she’s fighting for her people, but that she’s fighting for everyone, even those who have wronged her people.
This video was good, but did we play the same waterfall? Undyne is very explicitly painted in the wrong for wanting to kill you. Yes, she is understood to be justified in her feelings, but at the end of the day, you play a child. She is so blinded by her quest for liberation that she fails to see the impact her individual actions have. If you fight, she melts because she ultimately wasn't in the right for trying to kill you, even in the neutral route. To defeat her in the pacifist route, you run away. She is explicitly painted as being too stuck in her own desire to be the hero to recognize that the ends are not justified by the means. Her subsequent date night exists to directly humanize you to her, for her to recognize that you truly don't have any desire to hurt her. She is painted as justified, but ultimately in the wrong. In the genocide route, when she says "defeat you," she means you the player, not Frisk the human. Ultimately the real oppressor is the player, the player has full control over the game and is making the active decision to hurt as many people as possible. Undertale, while it has themes of greater inequality, is far more focused on the individual. It puts the responsibility to make the right choice on the player, or on the individual characters and is about the growth of each individual in how they deal with the scenario they are placed in. A great example of this is the asgore fight. Asgore chooses violence, personally. He is presented with and is willing to present pacifism, but has decided that violence is the only way for him to free monsters. This mentality of his is time and time again proven wrong by the player in the pacifist route, where you offer people who, for the most part, do not want violence an alternative, which they accept. Asgore (and Flowey) is one of the only exceptions to this rule, where you have no choice but to fight him. He destroys your ability to offer mercy, and while he is clearly reluctant, he is steadfast in his goals. You offer him mercy by the end of the fight, but in every scenario, Asgore either is murdered by Flowey or Kills himself believing that it is the best ending for you personally. Undertale isn't a game about "be peaceful no matter what", its about the fact that violence doesn't have to happen. Violence is a choice that somebody makes and is a choice that can only be met with more violence. Also, on the note of Chara, they are not a representation of any repressive force, in fact they are quite the opposite. They are heavily implied to have been an outcast, and likely jumped down mt ebott to kill themselves. Its the compassion of the dreamurrs that saves them. However, they also make the same mistake that Asgore would later make, choosing to poison themselves and give Asriel their soul to kill humans. It is their false belief that violence is what will set them free that leads to Asriel's death and Asgore's later spiral and loss of everything he loves, the birth of flowey, etc. When Chara wakes up again due to Frisk's determination, they can do nothing but watch, aware of the player's presence in Frisk's life, as the player decides if they will choose peace or violence. Chara is influenced by these decisions throughout the game, and the ending of both routes happens because you influence them to either choose violence or pacifism. This is not to discount what you mention in the video, it is a valid interpretation of some events in the story and certainly an interesting take. But at the same time, it skips over extremely vital events and pieces of context that only make the monster's struggle for freedom a fraction of the story at large.
Even MLK understood this to a degree, especially later on, before he was killed by oppresser. But people, especially opresser love to misquote him to ignore this fact.
It's made pretty clear in-game that the violent route monsters are taking towards humans is the wrong choice. The monsters in this game are not fighting directly against some human army or fascist empire - they are murdering children who inadvertently fall at their doorstep. Asgore originally had the right idea, treating the humans with kindness and accepting them into his family. His decision to change this was one made out of desperation and grief. Is his plight understandable? Sure. I find Asgore to be incredibly sympathetic. However, that does not make his actions justifiable. Toriel, who was also suffering from the same grief, recognized this and left him, vowing to protect humans whenever possible. She realized that humans were going to be killed simply because of their race regardless of morality or intent - something that is, of course, bad. With Undyne, this initial violence towards humans is treated as a flaw that she must overcome. Asgore and monster society had painted humans in a terrible light. Undyne may be a hero in the eyes of the monsters, but what exactly is this hero doing? Striking down innocent children? The notion that Undertale is supporting / defending the idea of liberational violence is laughable because that implies that Toby was essentially saying that it was correct for Undyne to view Frisk, an innocent child who has shown nothing but kindness, as an oppressor who must be killed. If anything, it is the monsters who must overcome their own misconceived prejudices towards humans, lest more innocent blood be shed - something that can only be done if both sides lay down their arms.
@@Rodrius.I’m gonna make a whole video about it bc it seems it’s necessary, and I’m not letting some left-winged trash degrade like this this beautiful game
He shows Vulkin when he says the monsters are attacking us because we're humans, but Vulkin is the only character that doesn't do that, since it attacks the player only because they think their lava heals people
In general, a lot of the characters simply try to communicate(It is stated that they use magic to express themselves like that). In some rare cases, it actually partially works like with the green areas of Tsundeplane's bullets, but humans just seem to largely be incompatible with what they are doing and most things are received the same as the lethal type of bullets.
This was such an excellent analysis, thank you! It’s wild that this game came out like 8 years ago and this is the first time I’ve seen someone come at it from a genuinely leftist lens like this.
Thanks @AnRel I really appreciate that. There seem to have been tons of progressive-themed entertainment videos about it, like hbomberguy's video on fandom, etc. But maybe not as many with quite as explicit of a focus on the politics of oppression and liberation. Hopefully this will help encourage more people to seriously analyse these subjects in other media that they engage with in the future. Well, we'll keep on trying to highlight these matters through this lens here on Left on Replay for the foreseeable future. Thanks again for the kind words - they're hugely encouraging, especially as this is the first video on this channel. Helps provide a lot of "Determination" to keep going with it (couldn't help myself, sorry lol)
What a wonderful analysis! ❤ Undertale is a game that means so much to me because it came out during my edgy, doomer teenager phase, and it really helped me to be more empathetic and open with my feelings. In a sense, it started me out on the path of escaping the callous right-wing beliefs of my family and my hometown, so to see a Marxist analysis of the game after so many years of growing up alongside it is truly touching.
Delighted to hear that both the game itself and this video had such an impact. Undertale is definitely a game that makes you critically re-examine so much that we take for granted in video games (such as just killing anything we encounter without thinking that there could possibly ever be any consequences for our actions). In that sense, it's a really useful springboard to get people to think critically about our behaviours, attitudes, beliefs, and even the societal norms that we perceive as "common sense". I can definitely relate to having a harsh right-wing upbringing (conservative catholic 1990s Ireland was one hell of a rollercoaster) and media like this really helping to crack open our minds to the possibility that there might be another, kinder way of living our lives individually and collectively.
@@bullet6140 American politics? This video was framed in the context of the Irish national liberation struggle? And also referred to the struggle of the fighters in the Philippines. Step outside of your bubble - there's an entire world beyond US politics.
@@LeftonReplay Piss off mate, your just making a pixel game be about politics in any shape or form when there was absolutely no reason to. The reason I assumed American Politics was because of how fucking dumb this idea is and the only people to be that stupid are Americans but you've somehow did it aswell.
Hold up, is this a new média analysis channel from my favourite irish republican socialist? We are reaching based levels previously thought to be impossible
26:20 I think this is why Asgore destroying the mercy button is such an important part of the game. It forces you to fight for your freedom against the same voice that encourages you saying, “Wake up!” “Stay determined!” “You are the future of humans and monsters!” Right before fighting Asgore Alphys tells you that in order to exit the barrier and receive freedom you must kill him. Then the monsters of New Home tell you how excited they are about being free, which can only happen if Frisk dies. This is then followed by judgement where Sans evaluates your actions based on if you acted peacefully, in self defense, or in malice/greed. It’s also interesting his judgement of the player changes depending on how many soft resets have occurred. If you reset after a neutral route but still kill, he will call you out on killing despite knowing by that point it’s unnecessary to progress (“skill issue lmao”). Going back to Asgore, after being judged on your actions, after it’s emphasized this fight will determine who goes free, whether you choose to kill or spare Asgore, Flowey finishes Asgore off. This is because Flowey truly believes in the idea of “Kill or be killed.” Both Frisk and the monsters aren’t able to go free until this idea is dealt with. The final fight with Asriel in the pacifist route (whom you cannot kill and you cannot die) is fighting against the idea of kill or be killed he adopted after The Plan failed and he lost his soul and best friend. You have to get to the root of the problem, the mentality that fuels oppression, that drove the humans to trap the monsters underground, the fear that if you don’t oppress someone that they will oppress you instead. Dismantling that ideology by building connections and understanding between groups is how to keep the cycle from perpetuating. In this it’s important I clarify that I mean the cycle of oppressive violence, not liberatory. Flowey wanted to become a god and, “Show everyone the true nature of this world.” By doing so he would perpetuate the cycle of hatred. Thematically Flowey represents the ideology of the oppressor group. In order to defeat Asriel you first have to Hope and Dream in order to withstand his onslaught. Then the bonds you made on your journey and understanding you build with the other characters is able to begin breaking his power as you reach out to them. There certainly are many cases where liberating violence is necessary to protect the oppressed, but even going beyond that goal, fostering understanding and friendship between people and groups who are different is the only way to break the cycle. I find it interesting that the game seems as if you are supposed to play multiple neutral routes before you figure out how to achieve the true ending. You have to learn what it means to fight for freedom, then you learn how to preserve and extend it to all.
Unfortunately, this whole analysis falls apart when you remember that the monsters refer to the player as human in the pacifist route, and identify them as *not* human in the genocide route
@@LeftonReplay I don't know that I agree with that. Because Asgore needs to kill you to get the final human soul that he needs to break the barrier, and in the genocide route monsters refer to Chara as "not human" because she "has no soul." imo, the player's human soul is too important to the plot and the narrative for that statement to just be dismissed as poetic flurish. But even still, you can't have it both ways. Either the monsters describing the player as human or not human is significant, or it isn't. Using the dialouge as evidence when it's useful for the theory and dismissing it when it's not useful is not gonna fly. I hope you don't get the impression that I didn't appreciate or enjoy the video, because I think it's a great video. When I said "unfortunately," I meant it lol
This take is.... bad, at least the first half is bad. So let's dissect it : 1-The humans are kind of right to separate themselves from monsters, case and point : flowey in both pacifist and neutral shows how dangerous the power of human souls are. So can we really call this oppression ? 2-The reason the humans kill Charasriel (the fusion between Chara and Asriel, who's controlled by both) is because Chara wanted to kill humans in order to break the barrier. The humans were acting in self defense, this is stated in the game. 3-Several clues lead to the fact that the human/monster war was between more than 200 years before undertale, being treated as a mere legend by humans. And it was 200 years ago that Asgore discovered that he needed human souls to break the barrier (thanks to Chara), even then, it took the death of both his son and adopted child for him to wage war against all humans who fall into the underground, and he takes no pride in being violent. 4-Using Deltarune to make some comparisons, we can assume Undyne has a tendency to solve conflicts with violence (not to the point of killing though) and that the bad guys MK is referring to are monsters. We can also add that Monsters and Humans have a "reversed role" since we talk about "giant human movies" and "humans under the bed" in Deltarune (a universe where humans and monster exist in harmony because their souls are implied to be equal). By using all of those points (and some more, coming from Deltarune if you want to) we can pretty much deny your whole take and the idea of an "oppressor/oppressed dynamic" in Undertale. This is logical since Undertale is based around RPG logic, and not real life.
@@ToramanOzen I disagree. Many stories, like books, are aimed at real world things, like social justice, oppressive regimes, censorship, over-reliance on certain things like technology, and more. Same with movies. Why can't stories in video games be the same? Why can't we have stories that compare to the real world? In a sense, this is one of the purposes of a story: to connect it to the real world. Undertale's goal wasn't particularly that, as it was more or less, to connect it to how players play RPGs, but why can't we connect it to real life? I don't agree with the video implying monsters were justified, but saying " people don't need to connect the fictional world with real life" is not a good take. Many fictional works aim at the real world. There's no reason not to connect fiction with the real world because that's a major point of stories to begin with. If books and movies can talk about the real world, why can't story-based video games? Even if Undertale doesn't aim to connect with the real world, that doesn't mean it can't be applied to the real world.
Thank you for the kind words. If you have $10 to spare, you should definitely pick up a copy of it. It's relatively short, but it's a game you can play over and over again and find something new each time due to the impact that your choices make in the game world. I can't recommend it highly enough (and no I haven't been paid by Toby Fox to say that lol)
Don't forget also the magic bullets aren't only used for violence within the monster society, there's examples of them not using them as such. One example of I believe a birthday message written in bullets, and vulkin is always trying to help not realizing its bullets harm you
TLDW: Only use the FIGHT option if the MERCY option has been broken. Just try not to accidentally believe that you can’t spare the enemy when you actually can. Otherwise you will end up in a situation where both groups think they are justified in fighting back just because one of them doesn’t see that the enemy’s name is already yellow. And sparing is harder than killing in this game on purpose. That’s how it works IRL. Even if it’s harder to spare the enemy than to fight them then still walk the extra mile for that. Though there is multiple messages in this game. Self-acceptance, „You actions have consequences.“ and „Stay determined!“ just to name all the ones I can think of right now.
note: you can also spare monsters if they're reduced to a low enough hp without killing them. this suggests minimized violence can be just as effective, if not easier to practice, than nonviolence. however, the player's position as an oppressor makes their use of said limited violence questionable, as they're ultimately punching downard even if softly.
as a fellow irish person, it's so great to see another undertale fan from our country! this video was amazing and extremely well articulated ❤ you earned a new sub 🇮🇪🇮🇪
I suggest Ace Attorney Phoenix Wright to be a line up for this channel. It’s a critique of the justice system and even has a villain early in named “Redd White Blue”.
Ha I'm glad you liked its inclusion. Wasn't sure if it was "too much", given this channel is casting a much wider demographic net than the main theory/practice channel, avoiding heavy jargon, advanced theoretical concepts, etc., but the response seems fairly positive so far
That's certainly a unique and interesting perspective. I'm glad you felt liberated enough to share this with the world. This video may not be perfect (you did imply Chara is inherently evil a few times), but it did give me something new to consider, which is more than I can say about most Undertale analyses these days. I finally get a break from all the "video game players toy with characters' lives for amusement and all video game enemies should be hugged and talked to" and instead get something far more mature and analyzed. Thank you for this, truly.
This was such a great video! I really love how you used your own life experiences growing up in Ireland to further prove your point in Undertale's message. Once getting further into the video, I was dying for you to mention Asriel's final message, and it's so great you didn't miss out on that. I feel Deltarune is Toby's way of telling the fandom that that was his message this whole time. Ralsei embodies the way a lot of people see Undertale's message to be, in that being nice and never violently fighting your opponent is always the way to go, while Susie embodies what people imagine what Undertale dissuades, that being violence and constantly beating up what's in front of you. In the end of the game's first chapter, Ralsei and Susie both end up learning that it takes both sides of their respective spectrums to survive and thrive in the world. Ralsei finds out that fighting is indeed necessary during the King fight, and Susie ends up mellowing out her destructive ways by exposure to our and Ralsei's actions in battles, with it culminating in her using her combative nature to save Kris's life at the hands of King instead of doing it out of malice and hatred, and not continuing her assault when there was no need to, as either Ralsei puts King to sleep (perhaps as another way to show he's changed) or Lancer roles up with all of Card Kingdom's citizens to other throw their oppressive, which now saying it in text is also a good example of how this game is another good form political messaging. So anyhow, thanks for making this video. With luck it can become really popular in the Undertale community, and we'll see more of it expanded upon in further analysis and even fan media. Keep up your amazing work!!!
man this is so good. ever since you announced you'd be pivoting to this sort of content on this channel i've been excited. media analysis is one of my favorite forms of entertainment to watch, but it's so rare to get a real, proper marxist perspective. gonna share this around a bunch. bravo
I'm so glad you enjoyed it! Well, judging by the overwhelmingly positive response from most people here, it seems like people want more of it - so there will be plenty more to come in the future 😊
I picked up on the humans being The Oppressors™ as soon as the intro played and I saw the torch in an angry mob. I just assumed everyone picked up on this, alongside the obvious justification for the monsters starting fights, and didn't find it interesting to talk about lol. I really do like this video, great analysis and your personal history with the subject gives you a good point of view on it I think, and other people breaking things down for me has always helped my own personal understanding of it even if I didn't miss something before (I did miss things that were mentioned in this video). Also I think the reason so many people get the "Always Pacifism No Violence Justified" message is from Toriel interrupting the Asgore fight in True Pacifist, which she stops because Frisk Is Like An 11 Year Old Child My Dudes. Also because Asgore was planning on Literal Genocide Of The Entire Human Race Apparently????? I feel like that obviously crosses the line over to becoming the oppressors and people just didn't pick up on it
Did not expect to genuinely enjoy a Marxist analysis of Undertale, but here I am pleasantly surprised! I always loved Undertale. It's where I found my first online communities, and it exposed me to people outside of just the country folk I grew up with. It always stayed with me, and you did justice to it. Awesome work man!!!
Thanks @silverthered ! Delighted to hear you enjoyed it, and that Undertale itself has had such a positive impact on you. Can I ask, where do people find these communities? I'd like to get more involved in places like that too
@@LeftonReplay Oh, this was years ago, I was just a kid. I joined ROBLOX Undertale roleplaying communities, which exposed me to people who weren't raised like I was for the first time. I was raised in a rather conservative household- 'was the first time I was exposed to new views.
@@LeftonReplay You find groups on different sites, forums, social medias, etc. and start interacting with people who share your sentiments. It's essentially just making mutuals and having people direct you towards new things. That's how you discover cool niche stuff.
(edit: ignore this post. I'm wrong, and the video pretty much is a marxist analysis. I mistook the exact meaning of what a marxist analysis is) -this is not a marxist analysis of Undertale at all. Marxist analysis focuses on the class struggle between the upper and lower classes in capitalist society or similar and oppression caused by the class divide. This isn't class divide; it's species divide. It focuses on the struggles between a stronger species and a weaker species, except the hostilities are cause by the potential of the weaker species to get very powerful. It doesn't really take it to the extreme, as reality is way worse than Undertale (pick up a history book if you don't believe me. Seriously, the monsters were very lucky). The video focuses on that species divide and not class divide.-
hmm i think some of these examples kind of just fall apart when you look closer at it. when it comes to undyne, papyrus and others, its clear that their character development is all about realizing that its impossible to view frisk as an enemy, and that killing a kid is wrong, freeing them from asgore's propaganda. frisk and the other children function as hostages gradually being killed to fulfill their demands. papyrus, undyne and asgore all realize that a much better strategy is to accept and foster allyship with those of the oppressor group who are friendly to their cause. toriel, sans, alphys and most of the overworld npcs also seem to have realized the needless bloodshed. therefore i think equating frisk with an oppressive state or structure dont fit in at all. the general idea and themes I think you're correct about, but i think this is mischaracterization
While I'm on the opposite side and agree with the analysis of the video, I do want to acknowledge that there's still credit here. When I first started getting into Undertale, the idea that monsters had souls that were different from human souls somehow, and that monster souls are "inferior" to human souls, I found foreign and strange. For some reason, I was always under the impression that all souls are equal. Plus, the monsters are described as being "made mostly of magic" which is why they turn to dust when they pass on, which is directly juxtaposed in-game by how it's different from humans. It's such a big deal that it's a plot point; determination make monster bodies melt, because their bodies can't handle it. A human being able to handle and manipulate determination is what allows Frisk/the player to manipulate the timeline within the game. I don't understand how these diegetic properties of human souls, monster souls and determination are supposed to correlate with the discussed themes and lessons purposed in this video. I can't think of any real world correlations that make sense. However, I still greatly appreciate the thematic lesson of oppression, as the monsters were very much oppressed by the humans and forced to live underground.
By the way, if some monsters just raised that child and also made them not kill (if they were doing so), they would eventually die of age, granting the same results.
@@MilkJugA_ i know the human wanted to get out too, but it's nonsensical to take the king's soul for that. The true Pacific ending was apparently going for that: if not for flowey interference, they would have taken care of Frisk while searching for some other way out, just like the neutral Pacific (the one you date Alphys but but don't enter the True Lab)
@@pedroivog.s.6870 It should be noted that if they _did_ just wait until a human died of old age, a loot of people simply wouldn't live long enough to see the surface, as they'd just die of old age too. A whole ass generation until their freedom is a big deal, even if that doesn't, y'know, actually make it warranted to speed it up. That said, even as that's an issue, it probably wouldn't have really mattered anyway, _until_ the 7th human, since like... Okay, getting a soul earlier is valuable, _in theory,_ but uhh, if it takes 400 years until human 4 and 5, that's not exactly going to help... Like, at all? So yeah uh, that's really mostly just for Frisk's situation, which, had some unique circumstances, to say the least. Kinda random to say but ya know, maybe between the two thoughts of "alright I'll watch it later" and "I should check the comments a bit"... they probably shouldn't go _together._ Sorry if I'm missing context, 'cause uh... Yeah. 💀Well hey, if I get a notification, that might be the cue to return. Very planned.
An excellent analysis, except that it misses a key, critical context: frisk is a child. Yes, a human child, but a child nonetheless. This child fell down a hole, and almost immediately is attacked by a monster who disguises itself as a flower, symbolic of how oppressors will use violence to lure in the opressed to a trap. The child is then beset by most of the monsters in the Monsters domain. While there are "civilians" in the towns that are non violent, the majority of Monsters are looking for a fight, and either need to be persuaded or killed. Those that don't tend to have negative views of all humans, and generalize them as butchers and bad guys. Frisk never oppressed anyone, and is contrasted by the young monster singing Undyne's praises, who like Frisk wasn't alive during the War that saw monsters pushed underground. This is highlighted at the point where Undyne reveals Frisk as a Human, which sends the young monster into a confused state in the normal/pacifist route. Frisk in those playthroughs didn't match up with the image of the bloodthirsty Humans, which causes a cognitive dissonance in the child as they are confronted with how wrong they were about Humans. I could go on and on, like how Chara is never celebrated while Frisk eventually makes friends and is loved by many monsters, how some monsters go way too far like Flowey or Alphonse/Gaster in the lab, etc. The parallels are there, which is part of why this game is a masterpiece.
Who is alphonse? No but seriously how did alphys and gaster go "too far"? Alphys just attempted to extract monster souls as well in order to subsitute human souls. And we dont know anything about Gaster. Also, another interesting detail is Frisk not being considered human by Sans and UNDYNE in genocide.
@@idioticlight lol, you right, I meant Alphys. Not sure if that was me or my phone, but nice catch. I think creating those monsters out of what used to be her friends is at least a step too far. That was because they tried to add determination to dust from monsters. It doesn't go well, and we know Gaster was directly involved, although not to what extent. Still, being involved with creating what even monsters considered to be abominations is not something I would consider in line.
Monster Kid assumes Frisk is just another monster. Then Undyne 'rescues' monster kid at some point, and it is implied that Undyne scolds Monster Kid, telling them that Frisk is a human and that Monster Kid should stay away from Frisk. Then later on the bridge, Monster Kid literally walks up to you and says something along the lines of "Say something to make me hate you!" That part always stood out to me, showing that hate is not something we are born with. Hate is taught to people. The whole part with Undyne in pacifist I always thought was meant to challenge her views on humans. She might not have seen a human before and has no idea how dangerous Frisk is, so her gut reaction to act on Frisk in self defense makes sense. She probably grew up being told what humans were like in the context of the war between Humans and Monsters. Undyne's mentor was Gerson, who fought in the war between Humans and Monsters. The hardest thing we have to adapt and change are our worldviews that we were taught. Toriel only seems to understand Frisk is a child because she adopted and cared for Chara, but we don't know how long ago that was.
@@leuexcedo9854 i mean, it was an accident, she expected them to die normally and just leave their souls behind. And the families dont mind their new.... state, and are just happy to see them alive.
I've never really considered this angle in depth before! This was really interesting. Though, I think it is notable that the murder of the fallen humans is not portrayed as a good thing. It's framed by Toriel and Asgore as a very bad thing. I don't think it disproves the messaging or anything, but Undyne isn't portrayed as being in the right for trying to murder a child, either. Frisk and the other fallen humans weren't necessarily justifiably killed, but the relationship between the oppressed and the oppressor does make it more complicated.
Amazing video, comrade, truly brilliant. Everything you said in the video was perfect. I really learned a lot from this actually, and it just made me show so much more appreciation for this game and for Toby's brilliant incorporation of this message. It is right (and justified for the monsters in Undertale) to rebel, using force against the oppressors, as it is the only way they can achieve liberation and freedom. Very important to distinguish between the genocidal and subjugative force of the oppressors and the emancipatory force of the oppressed. Also, regarding the brilliant Kwame Ture speech, I watched the full video linked in the description and there was another thing he said that particularly stood out to me as complementing this message, he said: "If we could achieve our liberation, if we could achieve our objective by being non-violent, we be non-violent, but if in order to achieve the liberation of our people we have to throw some hand grenades, we're chucking them" (at 16:16). Again, great video, thank you!
Thank you so much for the kind, thoughtful and encouraging comment! I completely agree, Kwame Ture's words are incredibly powerful and illuminating. Really happy to hear you enjoyed this and that you got something useful from it.
This was a really good analysis! I've seen one other video essay say something about how Undertale isn't strictly preaching pacifism and even they didn't really touch on the nature of how the violence of the monsters (or at least most of them) against the player character is entirely justifiable and understandable due to the history between the two peoples.
! Thank you so much! Wasn't sure how the new media analysis channel would go down, so I'm delighted to see you're enjoying this and hopefully getting something useful from it
@@LeftonReplay oh i did get something useful out of it, cuz i too thought this game was about violence bad, but damn, it is soooo much more ...i kinda wanna replay it now
@misadate8688 You definitely should - you find something new to enjoy every playthrough. For such a linear game, there's so much variation in what can be done within it
13:30 i will need to say, this point is kind of weird using CHARA of all people as the example of the oppressor. you know, the fallen child who killed themselves to try and free monsters and destroy humanity, the oppressors. even involving chara muddles the message a bit, because of how complex and messy their existence is. furthermore, undyne has dialogue implying that, before meeting the player, she wished to seal humanity into the same exact underground oppression that monsters once faced. this gets even WEIRDER when you consider that CHARA, the name you placed on the oppressor, has immense respect for undyne. at least, if you believe in the full narra!chara theory, during the genocide route, this is the only time that Chara shuts up, and talks about undyne only in respectful terms. chara is the one who calls them the true hero, which i think might be one of the reasons no one ever discussed this point. because your two biggest contextual examples of characters, have a ton of muddiness around their characterization, especially in relation to this exact point. on top of that, where do Asgore and the green SOUL fall into this? Asgore declared war on humans, and through their soul trait, we can assume the green soul likely went through the game similarly as to how we do, and yet in the face of Asgore, they end up dead, by the same monster that we end up fighting and killing, at least, in the neutral route. and in the pacifist route, toriel chastises asgore for his deceleration of war on humanity, even though in this context, it would feel more justified. ill be honest, i completely agree with all your points politically, but as much as i love toby, i feel like you are enscribing FAR too much intent into his work. i dont think toby actually wrote undertale as nuanced as you make it out to be, especially when bringing up all these holes in your point of using undertale as an allegory for the concepts of oppressor vs. oppressed violence. perhaps it inadvertently ends up supporting this point most of the time, but getting down to brass tacks, i feel like if undertale truly was trying to demonstrate this point, it would've done a much clearer job doing so. i do believe in death of the author though, and i think you do a very good job of re-contextualizing what i feel like were sometimes just jokes to tell a more poignant message on the roles of pacifism and violence in relation to oppression.
Regardless of the past, Chara becomes the epitome of an oppressor to monster kind. And Narrachara theory has too many holes in it to be considered viable as evidence for anything
@@ItsB1998 lmao but chara literally talks during geno. which is where my evidence is from. regardless ive never heard an actually good counter to narra!chara, so please go ahead and explain. it doesn't cover the rest of the issues i brought up regardless.
@@cognitiveAfflatus Chara talks to Frisk at the end of Genocide. I don't have to get into Narrachara if you don't consider it relevant to your main points
I'm actually really interested to see if this plot point continues on to deltarune with the darkners and lightners, as the darkners already accepted their "perpous" serving lightners, and ones who don't often end up discarded, but the issue of the servitude dynamic between the two worlds always gets sidelined in favor of fun adventures in the dark world, so all the darkners always come off as very one dimensional characters when they really have a lot more behind them. I hope this may tie in with the protagonist, kris, who also seems to have an assigned perpous (being a self insert for the player, which often makes it so their own feelings and opinions are ignored) and longs for freedom, so they might sympathize with the darkners more and find a way to liberate themselves and the darkners
One of my favorite videos on the Internet now. You said so much that I couldn't properly put into words for the longest time, thank you for that. Can't wait to see what you do next!
Don't think I've ever heard someone describe any of my videos as incredible. Thank you so much @OmegaCJS ! That means a lot. I'm really happy to hear you enjoyed it
One of my favourite takes on the message of undertale is the idea of the lives of the few under the lives of the many. Which kind of fits into the message of oppression. The story portrays humans as a collective mass of hatred, and that is why Frisk is constantly killed and fought. Because humans are bad. No matter what their stance is, they are oppressed into the general mass of the rest of a group. They can change their mind halfway through, they can have everyone's best interest, they can have everyone's worst interest, but it doesn't matter. Because they are one voice against the voices of a mass. It's really interesting, honestly.
and this is actually a fun thing to talk about because it ties into one of the most commonly mentioned parts of this game, and that's minorities. There are monsters who are viewed as lesser. Mad Dummy is one of my favourite examples of this. The 2 training dummies in this game can be represented by groups that are seen as 'inferior'. One of the examples I can give you is representing the ruins training dummy as the 'silent' oppressed. The ones who take the beatings who take the hatred. Mad dummy is the opposite. The 'loud' oppressed. The ones that fight back for justice. Mad Dummy was never a bad guy. He wanted justice. But he also lost the same justice through it, represented in how he forgets the ruins training Dummy's name. they're still oppressed. people ignore their feelings for the sake of "hey i need to get stronger." A real world example of this is queer people being used to give-mostly straight girls in schools-clout to people because 'they're friends with the gays!!!1!one!!1' They're being used for personal gain. The feelings of these two training dummies that happen to be sentient are pushed away for the sake that other training dummies take the beatings, or so we can assume.
@@cloudsdale its alr, honestly i forgot about mad mew mew but i honestly dont really see it as that important. not to say pronouns aren't important dont get me wrong, but i mean the whole mad mew mew thing because its an easter egg only available on one platform and outside of that its never really mentioned. so i dont really know
i've been a fan of undertale for awhile, so seeing someone analyze it in a way similar to how i've felt really stuck out to me in a good way. when the game first came out, i thought it was boring. the pixel art and black-and-white fighting stage were the biggest turnoffs for me. later on, in 2018, a friend was playing the music back in the green room before my first play. i found myself pretty quickly humming along, but was still reluctant to give the game a try. then, in 2020 i believe, when the pandemic hit, i found myself with a lot more time to just scroll absentmindedly through youtube. i kept seeing undertale stuff, and things about its 5th anniversary. i figured i'd watch a few videos, and thought it looked more interesting than i gave it credit for, so i finally downloaded it on my switch and played through the pacifist route with my family. and, holy shit. it was the single best game i'd ever played. granted i wasn't a heavy gamer, but i played deltarune as soon as i could after finishing undertale, and i was just as enthralled. every time i hear the music, i remember that night backstage, humming along to "home" and "nyeh heh heh!" while getting into costume and makeup. how much i still had to learn about theatre, about undertale, and myself. it's a refreshing wave of nostalgia that reminds me to just breathe, and remember how far i've come in those five years. undertale and deltarune will both always hold a special place in my heart, regardless of how our perception of it may change with time.
This was not the analysis I expected! Though to be fair I wasn't really sure what to expect in the first place. Great video and analysis nonetheless! Looking forward to future ones from this channel!!
I wanted to add that the separation of Toriel and Asgore is a microcosm of the ways there's internal disagreement among marginalised people of the best way to respond to their own oppression.
I cannot fully express how much I appreciate this video and how it helped me understand what this game was trying to say. I missed out when Undertale came out and miraculously avoided most spoilers for it up until December of 2022, so I came to it new, as an adult. By the end, I knew that it was trying to convey a message, but for whatever reason, (personal bias, ignorance due to privilege, or naivety,) it was always lost on me, just out of grasp. This whole video helped me understand and it makes so much sense. I feel like every new story I hear about someone's personal takeaway from Undertale, I learn a new way to look both the game, and both how I think about things in my own life.
As a fandom we started referring to it as the "no mercy" route. But going back to its original name, the genocide route, is a very poignant and striking literary choice to me, especially after I havent heard that name in a few years. I dont know if this was a conscious choice but I wanted to point out a very strong creative decision that might not be as noticed in a very clever, well researched video. Great work on the video overall, I cant wait to see more of your content!
Personally I think calling it the “no mercy” route doesn’t make sense. “No mercy” just implies that you kill every monster that encounters you and go on your way. “Genocide” implies that you specifically seek out and kill EVERY monster - even ones that don’t want to fight, which makes much more sense IMO. To me, the “no mercy” route and the “genocide” route are different routes.
You forgot that they covered the "Words sometimes fail" with a mechanic. If you leave an enemy with low HP. you can force them to spare you, making them unable to fight anymore I will someday go on that way on a "FUCK YOU!" Route, you dont kill, you just beat everyone until they let you pass
Great video! I personally played Undertale late, around 2018 or 19, but the game really stuck with me, from the characters to the music, etc. But looking at the game through this lens makes a lot of sense, that it is just a fight against oppression. Well done comrade!
Thanks Brandon. Great to hear lots of fans of the game for its purely artistic, aesthetic, and gameplay elements now coming to appreciate it politically more deeply as well. Definitely worth giving it another playthrough in light of this lens to view the game. Thanks again for the comment, it's really encouraging!
I think Undertales message was forgiveness. Because you forgive the monsters that hurt you. And now they are trying to be your friend because they have seen the brighter parts of the character Frisk. I would say that the humans slaughtered the monsters because they feared the possibility of the monsters absorbing a human soul. Indigenous people could also be a focus on Undertale’s message, although it didn’t strike me like that. Because it’s the same reason that racism well has hurt different human races. Freedom for the monsters, the humans would attack them mercilessly again, or so I believed. But it seems in the game the humans accepted them with open arms. Albeit they are learning to adapt with the monsters.
Actually, Undertale is a very educational game and that's because that world is similar to ours. I can give an example of learning from there. Example: That one's actions have consequences.
well now i know what to tell to the people that say that "the genocide (or neutral) route is the logical route because the monsters are attacking you first"
I find it very interesting that you use your personal experiences of growing up in Ireland during the Troubles considering how much the story of the game is based off Irish mythology itself. The theme of a race of supernatural creatures existing underground and the factor of falling into a mountain to enter it as a mortal is thought to be a play on the story of Oisín entering Tír na nÓg with Niamh.
yeah, i guessed that frisk represented a society, not a person. much of the story doesn't make sense if you think of frisk as a random kid who fell into a dangerous cavern
But we only see the monsters' side in the game, why do we take their word as the truth? Funnily enough this was a really liked reply here: "Besides which, Undertale is a work of fiction, so such nuances don't really apply", I realy doubt Toby just wanted to "plainly" say humans bad, monsters good. We know how strong monsters get if they take a human soul, flowey literally turns into a god when he takes six souls. So I really struggle to believe that monsters' story was completely unbiased as well as not a single human being killed. Plus what if monsters started the war or the genocide and then somehow lost? Would it mean monsters were in the wrong when killing the six humans (and trying to kill the seventh) even though the "oppressors" would be long dead by now, would it be the oppressors (monsters) continuing the oppression? No, I think it would be the same thing you say despite the roles being reversed, monsters wouldnt kill you because they are violent but because you will be their freedom. I do have more thoughts about this but other people said them much better than me (like MutedAndReported3032 and gonzalomeadearanda5751)
This video is truly beautiful, and it's message grew on me more and more throughout the 30 minutes. Amazing that after all these years, I can continue to find more wonderful, intricate details, stories, messages, etc. in this game that i have and will adore. Thank you so much for making this video and for detailing something I no doubt needed more explaining on considering my very privileged background lol. Cant wait to see your others videos!
I'd never thought about this before, but you're absolutely right. I don’t have nothing to add sadly. I look forward to your other videos on this channel.
i'm curious how asgore's actions would be interpreted under those lenses though, because while the people cheer and believe what he's doing is just, the game also goes out of its way to heavily shame him through toriel, is that a conflict in the message or is there something i'm missing?
If that was the actual objective intention, then the story more or less failed. Toriel was very much shown to us as an unreliable narrator who is simply stating her own view on it and who also acted suboptimally regarding the situration she was in.
@@lpfan4491 true, still i do wonder what her function is in the story following this interpretation tho, hell both toriel and asgore seem to have some interesting twists in this interpretation.
Not a fan of Undertale personally but I went ahead and shared this video with multiple others who would be into this and smashed that subscriber button. If you see this comment because I linked you this video, you should subscribe to Paul's new channel. Always very insightful and a voice of clarity, in my opinion. Good luck with your new channel, Paul! :)
Yay excellent job!!!!!!! Hope to see more analyses from u :’) I miss undertale so bad and I didn’t make this connection of it not universally condoning violence but you’re honestly so right and it just makes me love it more. Toby fox truly knocked it out of the park …..
Loved it! Excellent work. Commenting for the algorithm. The breakdown and presentation is very well put and I can definitely feel the emotion especially when you got to undyne's part 😉 Hope to see more! Can't wait to see what will you analyse next.
arent you appling here the concept of "collective punishment" to every human who falls into the underground? I mean the game kinda adressses this when Toriel leaves Asgore (she was against killing children BTW). This also explains why they adopt Chara and integrate them to the Dreemur family, the monsters werent always this hostile towards humans. They became that way after Asriel´s and Chara´s passing, it wasnt the "sense of freedom" nor the "acknowlegment of opression". It was because the whims of monarch who felt angry at the moment then felt remose for calling himself a Genocide back against humans (His plan is once he gets the human souls himself hell absorb the souls become a god and not even give the humans the chance to live underground but Str8 up kill them) IK you dont have this Knowledge in hindsigth but the new "lore book" Toby fox (the autor of this game) tells us he is against what Asgore stands for and actually calls him "A bad king" Even after all of this.... what did any human to fell afterwards has to do with the war other than, the were born into the most powerfull class, so therefore they should be punished for that? look.... Ik you have a backstory of your own with colonial powers.... I do to Im Mexican I know how it is to live under the USA´s thumb. But the world isnt a ONE ISSUE THING. The world has a lot of thing going for it, we as humans are not made for understanding everything that happens all the time at the same time, so to understand the world we live in we make stories, but sometimes this stories we make cloud our vission and poison our mind into beliving everyone is against us.... so we convince oursleves of our stories and push back against people who hasnt hurt us in any way shape or form: "They were just born into the evil ingroup" so we judge them under that, isnt that opression on of itself, i mean it may not be but is the same logic that justify said oppresion..... I hope you dont had any wrong intentions with this video and that is only a misunderstanding, but understand me when I say (And i do mean no insult towards you). You didnt get the game...... you didnt understand the game at all! I may have some issues with the message of "Violence bad" myself I may agree you on people giving it more importance than it deserves and i may have some "Undertale critisisms myself" But you missed the mark here
the king didn't needed 7 souls at all, one was already enough to make them free, but the king was lost in anger cuz the lost of both of his children. that wasn't a fight for liberty anymore, but a fight for revenge the queen knew that and she broke up with the king and run away to the ruins. Left to Replay had some misunderstandings, but explained very well about the oppressor and the oppressed thing. maybe i'll talking shit, but your 6th paragraph is like black people hating white people only cuz they're white, it is really fkd up. cheers from Brazil.
Hey, random black person who did a lot of critical race analysis of media in undergrad here. You really, really might want to rethink this video. As a longtime fan of Undertale, I genuinely hope that Toby wasn't trying to do any social commentary about race through the promotion of pacifism in this game or it'd REALLY bum me out. First of all, the baseline of your argument is concerning. Any civil rights 'allegory' where one of the species is human and the other kind of fails from the start. If you want to attack the history of oppression you can't start with the viewpoint that one 'race' is physiologically different from the other- that misses the point. Racial differences are socially constructed to make oppression easier. Current social differences among races are socialized and still don't apply to everyone within a race, because the boundaries of race are incredibly unclear. (ex: AAVE, not every black person uses it). You mention scientific racism and the use of racism as a tool of oppression, but miss that race itself isn't an inherent human factor from its outset. I mean, consider the implications? Do you really think that Toby Fox, a white man from the USA,really felt that had the authority to call people of color monsters? That he wanted to portray people of color as buying into that message by calling THEMSELVES monsters? Adding in the fact that historically (and still today) people of color are often portrayed by dominant classes as inhuman, animalistic, etc, this perspective on the story REALLY leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Furthermore, applying your race analogy to the plot of the game has some really,,,fucked results. A racial construction of the events of undertale turns it from a story about kindness into a white savior narrative. Whether you're thinking about South African Apartheid, Hatian slave uprisings, or the United States Civil Rights Movement, people of color have always been the ones with the power and DETERMINATION to create change in their own lives, NOT the ruling class. A story that centers the kindness of one good ruling class member while sidelining the basically helpless, woe-is-me lower class members (Alongside one cool hero who ultimately doesn't win) is at best disingenuous, and at worst, propaganda. The theme of Undertale is that your choices matter, and I seriously, seriously hope that Toby wasn't suggesting that the actions of one good upperclass person would save the sad (but surprisingly SO KIND) poor underclass. To my knowledge, racial oppression has NEVER been fully solved with pacifism. While you distinguish violence for liberty from violence for oppression, under this framework, violence for liberty ultimately doesn't work. (See below). Other thoughts: -Undyne's violence isn't celebrated by the game. Yes, in universe people love her (like asgore), but she's ultimately proved wrong for it. There's literally no ending where she wins that way. If she beats you, its game over, you don't see the end of the story. If she fights you and goes full out, she literally melts from trying soo hard for it. She doesn't live on eternally- in the context of the game she's DEAD, bruh. Undertale doesn't really strike me as a game that has anything to say about afterlives or whatever, so the girl's gone. And, of course, there's the fact that the true ending is the one where she befriends you. Monster Kid loses respect for her, similarly to how Toriel has lost respect for Asgore. If anything, Undyne and Asgore are critiques of basic utilitarianism- one life for hundreds is wrong, yadda yadda. These characters are not an instructional guide for facing oppression. I don't like the construction of Frisk as the antagonist from a race perspective. Despite being human, they're presented first and foremost as an innocent (a child). Are you really saying its up to one nice white kid to undo systemic racism? In all, I can get why you'd want to apply race to this story, but it definitely makes it worse. There are so many other readings that have readings more consistent with the tone and positive reception to the story.
Thanks for the comment. There's a lot here, and I noticed you followed me on Twitter, so maybe we can work through these points in DMs? Edit: we spoke in DMs and it was a really productive conversation. Will provide a clarification and correctional comment here soon
So after talking about this in more depth with Slippery Tummy and considering the matters from two different perspectives (a US-based anti-colonial perspective and an Irish-based anti-colonial perspective), it's become clear that a few key points need to be made clearer and corrected: - Firstly, this is a reading of Undertale that takes a "death of the author" analytical approach, so it should not be assumed that the message of this video was consciously intended by Toby Fox himself. With that being said, nothing exists in a vacuum. We live in a world dominated by imperialism and white supremacy, and all art produced in this context will reflect that to one degree or another. For example, Toby's use of the word "race" might have been unconscious. Regardless of Toby's own personal intentions with the narrative, this reading should be understood to stand on its own legs. - Secondly, I didn't make it nearly clear enough that "race" is not a physical material reality, but has been entirely socially constructed as part of the justifying ideology for colonialism and slavery (think, for example, of those who have been racialised as "lesser" on the apparent basis of religion or nationality rather than skin tone). While this was alluded to in the video, applying this analysis to the world of Undertale can be problematic given how there ARE certain physical differences between humans and "monsters" (which is a vague umbrella category which seems to include everything from puppy dogs to fish-people). It's strange that humans should be cordoned off from the rest of these beings when there's such diversity already among the monsters, but the question of Souls in the game-world complicates matters. In any case, it's clear that this is a sloppy allegory with some potentially harmful implications (being premised on the idea that these different "races" actually ARE physically different, while in our real world race is entirely a product of social construction). - Thirdly, with regard to the so-called "monsters" referring to themselves as monsters, the lens that I had viewed this through was one of re-appropriation on behalf of the oppressed. Think of any oppressed group who has had a slur thrown at them taking back that word from the oppressors and stripping it of its power, wearing it like armour. This form of thought is found in texts like Franz Fanon's "Wretched of the Earth" (a revolutionary anti-colonial political philosopher who participated in Algeria's War of Independence) - the colonised being the "wretched of the earth" that must liberate themselves. This book can (and should) be read here: grattoncourses.files.wordpress.com/2019/12/frantz-fanon-richard-philcox-jean-paul-sartre-homi-k.-bhabha-the-wretched-of-the-earth-grove-press-2011.pdf However, with regard to this point on re-appropriation Slippery Tummy made a really good point. It's one thing for an oppressed people to re-appropriate a slur or negative trope for themselves, but it's quite the opposite for a member of the oppressor group to do this to the oppressed. So even if the "monsters" of Undertale DID decide to re-appropriate the term (hypothetically), the context of a white guy in the USA like Toby Fox pushing this term of oppression onto an oppressed group that represent the colonised is... well, let's just say he wouldn't exactly be staying in his lane. But again, "death of the author" - while we can selectively point to certain elements of evidence in his work, Toby himself never claimed to be speaking for or on behalf of the oppressed. - Fourthly, white saviors and allies. While this video is essentially encouraging the viewer to take the side of the oppressed in the struggle for liberation (wherever the viewer themselves fits into the spectrum of oppression), it was pointed out importantly by Slippery Tummy that in the struggles of the oppressed, the oppressed group themselves have to be the main focus. It is the oppressed who liberate themselves, not some white savior (or - game-world equivalent - human savior of the monsters). Allies from oppressor groups are always welcome, but it has to be remembered that the ally shouldn't be the main focus of the struggle; the oppressed group themselves should. The conversation ST and I had in this regard was particularly interesting given the different contexts that we approached the anti-colonial struggle from. In the US, there are countless cases of white "allies" taking centre-stage and co-opting the genuine struggles of the colonised for personal and political gain, meanwhile the colonised are routinely side-lined and ignored while the oppression continues. Conversely, in Ireland we've had an unusually positive experience with allies. Indeed, the Irish anti-colonial, egalitarian movement (Irish Republicanism - at the opposite end of the political spectrum to US Republicanism) was established by a settler-coloniser named Wolfe Tone who leveraged his colonial privilege to educate, agitate and organise tens of thousands of native Irish people (who, due to the English colonial Penal Laws, were generally impoverished, illiterate and living in destitution) to rise up for liberation from English colonialism in 1798. Tone, being a genuine ally, and not just some political opportunist, gave his life and liberty for the freedom of Ireland, centering the most oppressed colonised people at all times - those who Tone would refer to as "that great and respectable class, the men of no property". His genuine revolutionary allyship led to his death following the 1798 Rebellion, but the movement he spearheaded was the single spark that would light a prairie fire, with the torch being carried forward primarily by the native Irish masses who have fought non-stop since that time for liberation from colonialism under Tone's banner, with numerous historical advances as well as set-backs along the way so far. So, coming from an Irish perspective, this video would have a more positive perspective on allyship between the oppressed group and class-traitors from the oppressor groups, hence viewing a benevolent True Pacifist Frisk in a more positive light. However, from a US perspective, a more cautious, skeptical approach to allies makes a lot of sense, given how it often hasn't worked out so smoothly in the States. So, that's a completely valid concern and important perspective. As a general rule, it has to be understood that it's the oppressed who will liberate themselves, not the ally. Even in Ireland, while the movement was started by Wolfe Tone, it has been the broad masses of native Irish people (primarily the poorest peasants and workers) who have actually carried forward the movement for Irish liberation. Tone wasn't just some magical "Great Man" who transformed history at the click of his fingers. So lots of really important and productive points brought forward from Slippery Tummy's analysis. Thanks for the insightful critical engagement - love to see it!
What a phenomenal thread, thank you both for your thoughts on the matter and for making me appreciate Undertale even more for its depth and narrative/thematic complexity
You know... this could perfectly explain why Kris seems to dislike humans in Deltarune: They're sided with the oppressed. Though the oppression is significantly milder in Deltarune, there's some dialogue that may hint that humans and monsters still don't quite meet eye to eye.
He was found by Toriel and Asgore in the forest and adopted later so his dislike to one of his kind would be understandable as he was abandoned as the child.
I would disagree that racism is "undertale's message", I personally felt the core themes resided specifically around friendship, hardship and that you're more than the sum of your parts.
Quote by Neil Gaiman: “If someone tells you what a story is about, they are probably right. If they tell you that that is all a story is about, they are very definitely wrong.” Stories rarely have 1 main point and good stories never have a 1 main point.
I can't believe that someone can make their first video so perfect. It looks like you hired a montage guy or learned how to montage yourself and just recorded your voice about your opinion, not with the intent to make some profit and money (as some youtubers do) but to express your own opinion and to make an actually interesting video. You are the true hero of youtube, I will genuinely wait for your next videos although there is a possibility that this is your first and last video, but I will not give up hope and wait... Edit: I just read your comment and I am happy that you actually plan to continue working on this channel.
This really gave me a more appreciation of the story - I haven’t played the game, but I’ve heard a few game reviews before, and the history of human vs. monsters is more often discussed in a very fictional way, like it’s Lord of the Rings backstory with monsters vs humans or something. Your video helped me realize it’s not some kind of fictionalized history, but a powerful metaphor for real history of oppression
Fiction and metaphor go very well together, Lord of rings also contains similar motif about the opression, but the opression force there is Sauron it's very common trope in the fantasy genere. I don't know where you got that idea that fantasy and metaphor can't go very well with each other.
2:07 looks like a judge in January who threatened me with jail for rolling my eyes. Trial judge is better, tho. Before the bench, he was a defence lawyer for 31 years, so he knows cops lie. It's funny too about passive voice: I noticed the cops' statements use passive voice for all their actions, and those of friendly witnesses, but characterize every little nuance about me -- and my mom! -- in negative adverbs and adjectives like "erratic", "abruptly" and "aggressive". Trial was scheduled for one day, but that's because they didn't know I'm the unstoppable freakin' Mouth of the South! The Crown and the pigs really thought they were gonna put on a little razzle dazzle for the judge and I was gonna take it dry. Anyway, adjourned until trial continuation on 19 April. Ouf...
This video puts into words the understanding I came to when I first played Undertale. Back when it first came out, I didn't really have the ability to explain what the game's message was, but this analysis puts it better than I ever think I could have. It also moved to me to tears, with the explanation of the force of the oppressed vs. the oppressor. It makes me upset that violence is something that can and must be used in the liberation of oppressed people, but I understand that it is still necessary. Thank you for this. I am looking forward to more analyses from you!
You missed the hole in the Monster's wall narrative wherein it depicts an image of a monster that absorbed a human soul. How could they have that picture if no human souls were taken. Also, the monsters said it was not only the monsters' ability to take souls that motivated the humans, but also the monsters use of magic. But how could that be, because humans, too, could use magic. The story is more nuanced than you think because evidence suggests the monsters were lying.
![Undertale - Megalovania [Punk Cover by NyxTheShield]](/img/n.gif)
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@anushghosh4606 I hope you feel better soon. I'd like to recommend some physical exercise if possible. Any time I'm feeling stressed out or down or anything, the best thing I find is lifting weights and letting off steam. Or doing push-ups/sit-ups/planks/etc. if you don't have access to equiment. Others find a lot of benefit in going for run or walks, getting out into nature if possible. I used to struggle a lot with anxiety as a teenager, but daily exercise has done wonders to alleviate that
@@LeftonReplay thank you for the advice, comrade. I really appreciate it. Working for 10 hours for 5 days a week is gruelling but I'll try going for walks over the weekend.
huh. still undertale content being made. i like these videos.
When I moved from Belfast to Dublin I suddenly found I kept running into people who utterly fucking love "Zombie" and think it's just the most insightful and meaningful peice of social commentary ever penned... It was painful and confusing.
So, thanks in advance.
I can see this channel going big
People need to remember that even Gandhi, who did believe that nonviolent direct action was a viable means of liberation, supported the violence of the oppressed over the violence of the oppressor. There's a great bit about this from one of his letters. A man wrote to him, saying that because of his adherence to Gandhi's nonviolent teachings, people were slapping him and making him feel ashamed and helpless. Gandhi's response was that, if he truly felt ashamed, then he had no choice but to hit the bullies back, but that he should also consider why he felt ashamed. Failure to support the violence of the oppressed is a form of oppressive violence, and people who are serious about nonviolence as liberation acknowledge that.
gandhi usually supported only the violence of the oppressor, as long as the oppressor was brown.
Course Ghandi had a lot of issues. But either way those lines are true.
@@thediethrower1803 Everyone has issues. But Gandi didn't have much on this subject
TLDR, "If he truly felt ashamed, then he had no choice but to hit the bullies back, but he should also consider why he truly felt ashamed."
I did not understand a single word of that.
A super interesting factor about the opening dialogue is that it isn’t actually neutral
Asriel points out that the very line “those who climb the mountain never return” is part of a legend, and wonders why Frisk would go to a place like that
The intro is a human tale, which is very telling when you think about how the humans are shirked of their blame in the story, it’s just a war that broke out, on equal sides, but the truth is much darker
You say as if the monster side that is told during the game were more belivable
@@DM-Oz The monsters don't have the same incentive to lie or dissemble about the evens of their genocide and imprisonment as the perpetrators of that genocide and imprisonment have.
Besides which, Undertale is a work of fiction, so such nuances don't really apply - it is plainly Toby Fox's intent that the monster telling of the story is the truthful one, and if there was any further nuance to it, then a canon scene would be present adding that nuance like with the difference between Undyne's violence and Flowey's.
@@shadowthespikythingy
Monsters say that humans had nothing to fear since they're too strong for their souls to he absorbed by monsters.
At the same time, monsters perfectly knew what happens when a monster absorbs a human soul and how such a monster looks like but it is stated to be unknown what happens when a human absorbs a monster soul because "it never happened."
Yeah, sure.
@@justauser6078 I mean... Is it really that improbable? The only monster souls to be absorbed would be boss monsters'. You could argue that it happened out of the view of monsters, but the game shows how rare of a happening boss monsters existing is.
@@fabiosonhandogrande1697
What does Boss Monsters and their souls have to do with it?
This a prety good video and you are definitely correct that Undertale's message on violence isn't just "violence bad". But I think you were wrong about a few things.
The game isn't against you using violence on the monsters, just you killing them. Most monsters (including Papyrus) will spare you if you keep attacking until they are at low health, so you can through most of the pacifist route only using the fight and mercy button and you can still complete the pacifist route as long as you make the effort to befriend Papyrus, Undyne and Alphys. So, Undertale is fine with us using violence as long as we are careful not to use excessive force and make an effort to ensure no one is left terribly shaken by our actions (befriending the main characters). You can also get the pacifist route even if you do nothing but insult Papyrus and Undyne when "befriending" them but this might just be for the funnies and not have any narrative significance.
The protagonist in the genocide route is explicity said not to be a human by both Flowey and Sans. Several monsters who recognise the protagonist as a human in other routes don't in the genocide route including both Undyne (human... no, whatever you are") and Asgore (who has even seen the war with his own eyes). The in lore reason for this is that Chara is no longer a human because they have lost their soul after death ("Your not really human are you? No. You're empty inside, just like me." "I have a plan to become all powerful, even more powerful than you and your stolen soul.") However, from a narrative perspective us and Chara are being distanced from humanity and if you're interpretation of Undertale is correct, the oppressor group of Undertale. The monsters see us and think not "See? We were right!" But instead that we are not a human at all. We aren't like the original humans who commited genocide against the monsters to ensure they monsters wouldn't eradicate them later on but instead we are like Flowey, someone who kills others for his own entertainment. Although this might not be the case since Chara and the player in the genocide route are intentionally seperate in both history and motives (Chara kills for power and most players do the genocide route out of curiosity, something Toby knows because Sans also seems to think we are killing out of curiosity, "not because of any desire for "good" or "evil" but just because you think you can. and because you can, you have to.") Not only this but in the genocide route we are told by both Undyne and Mettaton that we will destroy humanity, ("If you get past me, you'll destroy them all won't you? Humans, monsters, everyone's hopes vanquished in an instant.", "After our last meeting I made a ghastly realisation. You won't just destroy monsters but humanity as well.") We/Chara aren't just said to not be human but the enemy of humanity itself. Toby does everything to distance our actions in the genocide route from the conflict between humans and monsters, instead making us/Chara an evil third party who is an enemy to both groups and part of neither.
To add onto this, Chara does not function properly as a symbol of oppression because Chara hates humanity. In Asriel's dialogue he mentions Chara's hatred for humanity right after saying they climbed Mt Ebott for a "not very happy reason", so, Asriel is linking Chara's hatred of humanity to Chara's decision to climb Mt Ebott and surprisingly not Chara's decision to attack to humans in his dialogue (although this obviously doesn't mean hatred of humanity wasn't Chara's motives). Asriel is telling us that Chara hated humanity so much they would rather die on Mt Ebott than live in the human world. They really, really, really hate humanity. Infact, it is possible that Chara is actually motivated by the desire to gain power in the genocide route only so they can destroy humanity via either erasing the world or via the soulless pacifist route (if you do pacifist after genocide it will be shown that Chara has full control of Frisk's body and plans to do evil things, pressumably starting another human monster war). Having a large part of Chara's character being their hatred for humanity makes them a terrible representation of oppression in the narrative you are presenting.
Lastly, while Undyne is adored by MK at the start of the pacifist route if you talk to him at the end of pacifist route he will tell you that "Maybe Undyne isn't as cool as we thought. I mean, she's just kind of mean." So, while the game makes a distinction between oppressive and libertory violence, Undyne is someone who uses excessive force since she doesn't speak only of freeing the monster race but also giving the humans back "the suffering and pain [the monsters] have endured". Only in the genocide route is she dubbed the true hero when she is fighting to save the world. We've got Mettaton who wants to save humanity. He's probably narratively important or something.
This comment is long.
I commented something similar to this and I saw a lot of people agreeing with this video without question, very few people commented on the mistakes and I'm starting to think this video could spread misinformation, Undertale is a very heavy anti war game, when someone analyzes something but ignores key facts to help out the agenda, that's not cool.
Overall, every character in this game has their own troughs and ideas, they don't act as a collective oppressed group.
@@Ivan-ud8ci
It's hardly any more misinformative than the many videos which tell people that Undertale is always against violence of any kind.
This.
There's also the fact that Chara says the player put them on their current path, that it was the player's will and determination that drove them forward. They refer to their suicide and attempt to collect more souls as "our plan", as in they and Asriel were in on it together, and not "my plan" which would be used if they were tricking Asriel. The human Chara may not of been the greatest person when they were alive, but I don't think it makes sense for them to be portrayed as completely evil either. Especially since the only ones who get that kind of characterization are Flowey, soulless Chara, and the player in the genocide route.
Any analysis video for Undertale is bound to not be quite right, and thats namely because there isn’t a correct analysis. There are just different perspectives from people who lived different lives and what they can reflect off the game with their wisdom. I do agree with the Chara points but I thought the video by all means wasn’t a bad one at all.
The only thing that gets me is the fact that a lot of these videos go much deeper into meaning than Toby Fox most likely meant for it to be. Reading in between the lines when there might not be all that much to interpret, and it ends up over-glorifying what the game is. But then again its hard to say that either because even what the game tells you it is, is subjective. Although not all takes should be accepted because with a game that includes genocide there are bound to be people who will takeaway bad things because they want to.
I think you missed a crucial point about Undyne, especially on the genocide route. Undyne stops addressing the Frisk as "the human" and comes to the conclusion that it isn't just about monsters anymore. The creature before her is an enemy to the whole world, monsters AND humans. Knowing this Undyne becomes the TRUE hero by essentially fighting for the whole world. Other than that, very interesting analysis!
I think there might be an interesting point to be made here on how fascism inevitably turns in on itself - if it has no outgroup left to oppress, then the ingroup will become more restrictive or it will cease to be fascism. Fascism, in this case, is analogous to the genocide route imo. You can have obviously have oppression and genocide in other systems, but in fascism, the most extreme form of group supremacy, there isn't really any for you to just... Stop and call it a day after you complete your main goal at the time, and Undyne recognizes this here.
It kinda makes no sense. Undyne also wanted to murder all humans, so when (according to her) she somehow came to the conclusion that the human murdering only 1% of the monster population also for whatever reason wants to kill humans as well, she somehow gets a random power boosts and somehow knows that the humans wants to stop you too?????
@@ultimate_capper3643 She wanted to murder all humans because she is younger in the story she didn't even participated in war, the only ones that were are Asgore himself, Toriel probably and Gerson who was known as the Hammer of justice.
So rather she only knew the one side of an story, she never saw a human and still was able to recognize the main protagonist, her prediction was rather based on what she felt, Undyne's character is rather straight forward as you can tell from the pacifist that character is one of those types have an idea, realize that idea, and think through idea after realizing it along with caused consequences.
In short Undyne acts first and thinks later.
@@rafsandomierz5313 I am aware that she was not present in the war or even encountered a real human up until the human fell down.
What I am saying is that it makes no sense for her to randomly claim that the human wants to kill all of humans and undyne somehow gains a power boost because she wants to protect them as well despite the fact that she wanted to murder the humans too.
@@ultimate_capper3643 She could get the feeling of protagonists intetions.
neat video, but I wanted to state a correction that I didn't see anyone else in the comments make. The majority of monsters are not attacking Frisk because Frisk is human. In fact, very few monsters are able to recognize Frisk as human. The monsters "attack" Frisk because, for their species, magic and bullet hell patterns are used as a way to communicate. The monsters are just trying to communicate or interact with Frisk, not knowing that as a human they are hurting them. (For example, Woshua is trying to wash you, Shyren is just sing, Napstablook is just crying, Vegetoid is just trying to give you food, also there's a note in the game about monsters giving each other bullet hell birthday cards.)
Indeed.
It seems to me that none of the monsters truly wanted to attack the main character.
Also, and this wasn't taken into notice at the beginning of the video: how do the monsters know that they can claim the souls of humans? If not by killing one or more before?
@@v.d.2090 A Chara situation likely (i.e. the will of another human to leave their soul for a monster)
Where is proof?
@@yalovoyhznepomny In the snowdin library there is a book that talks about the nature of monsters and humans, in this book there is a line about how the complex bullet patterns of the monsters is how they show emotion to each other, and they question how humans can express emotions now that they cant use bullet patterns.
@@krimptheshrimp oh fu...This is stupid argument
One thing about Undertale is that in the game you have the *choice* to talk or fight. Even if you take the game at face-value, the moral isn't "violence is wrong", but instead "*choosing* violence is wrong".
I really love this, very poignant way of putting it. The moral isn't "violence is wrong", but instead *"choosing* violence is wrong". A bit like how it's not "money is the root of all evil" but "the love of money is the root of all evil".
People forget Fallout existed before Undertale fr
I used to write this game off as deviant art/tumblr crap back when it came out. I even took it less seriously when Sans became a shitpost. Once I gave the game a chance it had me in tears by the end. I was taken aback at how thoughtful and nuanced it was. The resemblances between the story and Che Guevara’s motorcycle diaries also struck me. With regards on how both stories show when one is ripped from their privileged lifestyles and come face to face with the oppressed, ignorance can be destroyed once perspective grows. And virtuous traits would bloom.
I think it's also important to note that in Undyne's initial speec she notes that Frisk isn't going to stop against Monsters after they are all dead.
She mentions that even humans will die directly stating that EVERYONE, not every monster, has hearts being as one with her own.
Well yes, when the oppressors run out of an "other" to put below them after having killed them all, they will cannibalize their own group and find other reasons to put people below them. They will never be at peace because their fear stems from seemingly not having a way to prove they are the best.
i mean there is a reason why frisk jumped in mt ebbot
then again, she did plan to kill all humans anyway in the route she takes the throne so kinda hypocritical to call you out on that
@@yep1486 that's _after_ certain experiences where she draws that conclusion, which do not happen to her during the geno route. she's an imperfect person and becomes extremely vengeful if you ravage everything she cares about and leave, but if you're straight up seeking out and systematically eliminating every trace of life in the underground she recognizes just how dire it is, that you're on your way to just straight up end everything
Just because she said that doesn't mean she is right. I can say i will kill you , but it doesn't mean i will kill you.
In the No Mercy route there's also the theme of distancing yourself - which includes stopping to perceive who you're killing as people.
This video nearly made me cry... Thanks for showing the truth about oppression and Liberation of oppressed.
I'm expecting more videos from you and I hope your messages get to other people too.
Delighted to hear this video had such an impact on you.
It's a game that always manages to tug on the aul' heartstrings in some way or another.
Plenty more to come on this channel - this is just the beginning,
Cheers Fallenburg 🍻
@@LeftonReplay I did like the video, but I’m confused as what kind of oppressor is Chara in your eyes?
@@aeshaahme3774 human
The plaques in Waterfall render this theory null and void. The uploaded doesn't do basic exploration.
This video is disgusting, it’s literally telling you to kill children, I wouldn’t be so thankful
When it comes to the genocide route while frisk is continuing the path of violence the game also emphasizes that they are no longer even human. frisk doesn’t do this out of a fear of losing power like the humans, but just to kill and also the game kind of implies that frisk doesn’t care who they are, they will kill them when undyne says she will save the whole world and I think that a part of her being a true hero is not only that she’s fighting for her people, but that she’s fighting for everyone, even those who have wronged her people.
This video was good, but did we play the same waterfall? Undyne is very explicitly painted in the wrong for wanting to kill you. Yes, she is understood to be justified in her feelings, but at the end of the day, you play a child. She is so blinded by her quest for liberation that she fails to see the impact her individual actions have. If you fight, she melts because she ultimately wasn't in the right for trying to kill you, even in the neutral route. To defeat her in the pacifist route, you run away. She is explicitly painted as being too stuck in her own desire to be the hero to recognize that the ends are not justified by the means.
Her subsequent date night exists to directly humanize you to her, for her to recognize that you truly don't have any desire to hurt her. She is painted as justified, but ultimately in the wrong.
In the genocide route, when she says "defeat you," she means you the player, not Frisk the human. Ultimately the real oppressor is the player, the player has full control over the game and is making the active decision to hurt as many people as possible.
Undertale, while it has themes of greater inequality, is far more focused on the individual. It puts the responsibility to make the right choice on the player, or on the individual characters and is about the growth of each individual in how they deal with the scenario they are placed in.
A great example of this is the asgore fight. Asgore chooses violence, personally. He is presented with and is willing to present pacifism, but has decided that violence is the only way for him to free monsters. This mentality of his is time and time again proven wrong by the player in the pacifist route, where you offer people who, for the most part, do not want violence an alternative, which they accept. Asgore (and Flowey) is one of the only exceptions to this rule, where you have no choice but to fight him. He destroys your ability to offer mercy, and while he is clearly reluctant, he is steadfast in his goals. You offer him mercy by the end of the fight, but in every scenario, Asgore either is murdered by Flowey or Kills himself believing that it is the best ending for you personally.
Undertale isn't a game about "be peaceful no matter what", its about the fact that violence doesn't have to happen. Violence is a choice that somebody makes and is a choice that can only be met with more violence.
Also, on the note of Chara, they are not a representation of any repressive force, in fact they are quite the opposite. They are heavily implied to have been an outcast, and likely jumped down mt ebott to kill themselves. Its the compassion of the dreamurrs that saves them. However, they also make the same mistake that Asgore would later make, choosing to poison themselves and give Asriel their soul to kill humans. It is their false belief that violence is what will set them free that leads to Asriel's death and Asgore's later spiral and loss of everything he loves, the birth of flowey, etc. When Chara wakes up again due to Frisk's determination, they can do nothing but watch, aware of the player's presence in Frisk's life, as the player decides if they will choose peace or violence. Chara is influenced by these decisions throughout the game, and the ending of both routes happens because you influence them to either choose violence or pacifism.
This is not to discount what you mention in the video, it is a valid interpretation of some events in the story and certainly an interesting take. But at the same time, it skips over extremely vital events and pieces of context that only make the monster's struggle for freedom a fraction of the story at large.
Even MLK understood this to a degree, especially later on, before he was killed by oppresser. But people, especially opresser love to misquote him to ignore this fact.
To ignore the changes that have taken place in society is insane. White people today are not “oppressors” just for being born white.
It's made pretty clear in-game that the violent route monsters are taking towards humans is the wrong choice. The monsters in this game are not fighting directly against some human army or fascist empire - they are murdering children who inadvertently fall at their doorstep. Asgore originally had the right idea, treating the humans with kindness and accepting them into his family. His decision to change this was one made out of desperation and grief. Is his plight understandable? Sure. I find Asgore to be incredibly sympathetic. However, that does not make his actions justifiable. Toriel, who was also suffering from the same grief, recognized this and left him, vowing to protect humans whenever possible. She realized that humans were going to be killed simply because of their race regardless of morality or intent - something that is, of course, bad.
With Undyne, this initial violence towards humans is treated as a flaw that she must overcome. Asgore and monster society had painted humans in a terrible light. Undyne may be a hero in the eyes of the monsters, but what exactly is this hero doing? Striking down innocent children? The notion that Undertale is supporting / defending the idea of liberational violence is laughable because that implies that Toby was essentially saying that it was correct for Undyne to view Frisk, an innocent child who has shown nothing but kindness, as an oppressor who must be killed. If anything, it is the monsters who must overcome their own misconceived prejudices towards humans, lest more innocent blood be shed - something that can only be done if both sides lay down their arms.
So true. Even Papyrus LIED to the most perfect PERSON in his eyes because he also thinks that Frisk was not at fault and should not be killed.
Thank you
then, what is the actual message of the game?
@@Rodrius.forgive forget the past does not rule you. Even the most horrible person can change for the better
@@Rodrius.I’m gonna make a whole video about it bc it seems it’s necessary, and I’m not letting some left-winged trash degrade like this this beautiful game
He shows Vulkin when he says the monsters are attacking us because we're humans, but Vulkin is the only character that doesn't do that, since it attacks the player only because they think their lava heals people
There is aaron who want to flex and woshua just a cleaning maniac
@@tuskact4425 sure sure
In general, a lot of the characters simply try to communicate(It is stated that they use magic to express themselves like that). In some rare cases, it actually partially works like with the green areas of Tsundeplane's bullets, but humans just seem to largely be incompatible with what they are doing and most things are received the same as the lethal type of bullets.
@@lpfan4491 yeah, something like that, but some try to attack you
Oh i think i can stab you cuz i think it heals you, and also you can't hurt me cuz i think stabbing you heals you.
This was such an excellent analysis, thank you! It’s wild that this game came out like 8 years ago and this is the first time I’ve seen someone come at it from a genuinely leftist lens like this.
Thanks @AnRel I really appreciate that. There seem to have been tons of progressive-themed entertainment videos about it, like hbomberguy's video on fandom, etc.
But maybe not as many with quite as explicit of a focus on the politics of oppression and liberation.
Hopefully this will help encourage more people to seriously analyse these subjects in other media that they engage with in the future.
Well, we'll keep on trying to highlight these matters through this lens here on Left on Replay for the foreseeable future.
Thanks again for the kind words - they're hugely encouraging, especially as this is the first video on this channel. Helps provide a lot of "Determination" to keep going with it (couldn't help myself, sorry lol)
And even 10 years later, we still find new ways to interpret Undertale. What a game.
What a wonderful analysis! ❤
Undertale is a game that means so much to me because it came out during my edgy, doomer teenager phase, and it really helped me to be more empathetic and open with my feelings. In a sense, it started me out on the path of escaping the callous right-wing beliefs of my family and my hometown, so to see a Marxist analysis of the game after so many years of growing up alongside it is truly touching.
Delighted to hear that both the game itself and this video had such an impact.
Undertale is definitely a game that makes you critically re-examine so much that we take for granted in video games (such as just killing anything we encounter without thinking that there could possibly ever be any consequences for our actions). In that sense, it's a really useful springboard to get people to think critically about our behaviours, attitudes, beliefs, and even the societal norms that we perceive as "common sense".
I can definitely relate to having a harsh right-wing upbringing (conservative catholic 1990s Ireland was one hell of a rollercoaster) and media like this really helping to crack open our minds to the possibility that there might be another, kinder way of living our lives individually and collectively.
nice pfp
Why make a game about American Politics
Both sides are arseholes just let the game be a game instead of fucking
marxist or fascist shit
@@bullet6140 American politics? This video was framed in the context of the Irish national liberation struggle? And also referred to the struggle of the fighters in the Philippines.
Step outside of your bubble - there's an entire world beyond US politics.
@@LeftonReplay Piss off mate, your just making a pixel game be about politics in any shape or form when there was absolutely no reason to.
The reason I assumed American Politics was because of how fucking dumb this idea is and the only people to be that stupid are Americans but you've somehow did it aswell.
Hold up, is this a new média analysis channel from my favourite irish republican socialist? We are reaching based levels previously thought to be impossible
Here's hoping it lives up to expectations 🍻
"Capitalism is based on human greed. Socialism is based" -PragerU
@@LeftonReplay from your other stuff i'm shure it will
@@LeftonReplay this video is an amazing start that's for sure
26:20
I think this is why Asgore destroying the mercy button is such an important part of the game. It forces you to fight for your freedom against the same voice that encourages you saying, “Wake up!” “Stay determined!” “You are the future of humans and monsters!”
Right before fighting Asgore Alphys tells you that in order to exit the barrier and receive freedom you must kill him. Then the monsters of New Home tell you how excited they are about being free, which can only happen if Frisk dies.
This is then followed by judgement where Sans evaluates your actions based on if you acted peacefully, in self defense, or in malice/greed. It’s also interesting his judgement of the player changes depending on how many soft resets have occurred. If you reset after a neutral route but still kill, he will call you out on killing despite knowing by that point it’s unnecessary to progress (“skill issue lmao”).
Going back to Asgore, after being judged on your actions, after it’s emphasized this fight will determine who goes free, whether you choose to kill or spare Asgore, Flowey finishes Asgore off. This is because Flowey truly believes in the idea of “Kill or be killed.”
Both Frisk and the monsters aren’t able to go free until this idea is dealt with. The final fight with Asriel in the pacifist route (whom you cannot kill and you cannot die) is fighting against the idea of kill or be killed he adopted after The Plan failed and he lost his soul and best friend. You have to get to the root of the problem, the mentality that fuels oppression, that drove the humans to trap the monsters underground, the fear that if you don’t oppress someone that they will oppress you instead. Dismantling that ideology by building connections and understanding between groups is how to keep the cycle from perpetuating. In this it’s important I clarify that I mean the cycle of oppressive violence, not liberatory. Flowey wanted to become a god and, “Show everyone the true nature of this world.” By doing so he would perpetuate the cycle of hatred. Thematically Flowey represents the ideology of the oppressor group.
In order to defeat Asriel you first have to Hope and Dream in order to withstand his onslaught. Then the bonds you made on your journey and understanding you build with the other characters is able to begin breaking his power as you reach out to them.
There certainly are many cases where liberating violence is necessary to protect the oppressed, but even going beyond that goal, fostering understanding and friendship between people and groups who are different is the only way to break the cycle. I find it interesting that the game seems as if you are supposed to play multiple neutral routes before you figure out how to achieve the true ending. You have to learn what it means to fight for freedom, then you learn how to preserve and extend it to all.
Unfortunately, this whole analysis falls apart when you remember that the monsters refer to the player as human in the pacifist route, and identify them as *not* human in the genocide route
Metaphorically "not human". Not literally.
@@LeftonReplay I don't know that I agree with that. Because Asgore needs to kill you to get the final human soul that he needs to break the barrier, and in the genocide route monsters refer to Chara as "not human" because she "has no soul." imo, the player's human soul is too important to the plot and the narrative for that statement to just be dismissed as poetic flurish.
But even still, you can't have it both ways. Either the monsters describing the player as human or not human is significant, or it isn't. Using the dialouge as evidence when it's useful for the theory and dismissing it when it's not useful is not gonna fly.
I hope you don't get the impression that I didn't appreciate or enjoy the video, because I think it's a great video. When I said "unfortunately," I meant it lol
@@LeftonReplayit’s literal
@@LeftonReplay Ironically, Asgore calls Frisk a monster in the Geno route. Not human. He didn't recognize Frisk as a Human, but as a Monster instead.
This take is.... bad, at least the first half is bad.
So let's dissect it :
1-The humans are kind of right to separate themselves from monsters, case and point : flowey in both pacifist and neutral shows how dangerous the power of human souls are. So can we really call this oppression ?
2-The reason the humans kill Charasriel (the fusion between Chara and Asriel, who's controlled by both) is because Chara wanted to kill humans in order to break the barrier. The humans were acting in self defense, this is stated in the game.
3-Several clues lead to the fact that the human/monster war was between more than 200 years before undertale, being treated as a mere legend by humans. And it was 200 years ago that Asgore discovered that he needed human souls to break the barrier (thanks to Chara), even then, it took the death of both his son and adopted child for him to wage war against all humans who fall into the underground, and he takes no pride in being violent.
4-Using Deltarune to make some comparisons, we can assume Undyne has a tendency to solve conflicts with violence (not to the point of killing though) and that the bad guys MK is referring to are monsters. We can also add that Monsters and Humans have a "reversed role" since we talk about "giant human movies" and "humans under the bed" in Deltarune (a universe where humans and monster exist in harmony because their souls are implied to be equal).
By using all of those points (and some more, coming from Deltarune if you want to) we can pretty much deny your whole take and the idea of an "oppressor/oppressed dynamic" in Undertale.
This is logical since Undertale is based around RPG logic, and not real life.
same here who thinks exactly like that.. people don't need to connect the fictional world with real life.
@@ToramanOzen I disagree. Many stories, like books, are aimed at real world things, like social justice, oppressive regimes, censorship, over-reliance on certain things like technology, and more. Same with movies. Why can't stories in video games be the same? Why can't we have stories that compare to the real world?
In a sense, this is one of the purposes of a story: to connect it to the real world. Undertale's goal wasn't particularly that, as it was more or less, to connect it to how players play RPGs, but why can't we connect it to real life?
I don't agree with the video implying monsters were justified, but saying " people don't need to connect the fictional world with real life" is not a good take. Many fictional works aim at the real world. There's no reason not to connect fiction with the real world because that's a major point of stories to begin with. If books and movies can talk about the real world, why can't story-based video games?
Even if Undertale doesn't aim to connect with the real world, that doesn't mean it can't be applied to the real world.
I have never heard of Undertale before today but that was awesome.
Thank you for the kind words. If you have $10 to spare, you should definitely pick up a copy of it.
It's relatively short, but it's a game you can play over and over again and find something new each time due to the impact that your choices make in the game world. I can't recommend it highly enough
(and no I haven't been paid by Toby Fox to say that lol)
@@LeftonReplay Thanks for the recommendation
Don't forget also the magic bullets aren't only used for violence within the monster society, there's examples of them not using them as such. One example of I believe a birthday message written in bullets, and vulkin is always trying to help not realizing its bullets harm you
really excited to see what direction you will take with this video my guy. really interested in this new project as well
TLDW: Only use the FIGHT option if the MERCY option has been broken.
Just try not to accidentally believe that you can’t spare the enemy when you actually can. Otherwise you will end up in a situation where both groups think they are justified in fighting back just because one of them doesn’t see that the enemy’s name is already yellow. And sparing is harder than killing in this game on purpose. That’s how it works IRL. Even if it’s harder to spare the enemy than to fight them then still walk the extra mile for that.
Though there is multiple messages in this game.
Self-acceptance, „You actions have consequences.“ and „Stay determined!“ just to name all the ones I can think of right now.
note: you can also spare monsters if they're reduced to a low enough hp without killing them. this suggests minimized violence can be just as effective, if not easier to practice, than nonviolence. however, the player's position as an oppressor makes their use of said limited violence questionable, as they're ultimately punching downard even if softly.
as a fellow irish person, it's so great to see another undertale fan from our country! this video was amazing and extremely well articulated ❤ you earned a new sub 🇮🇪🇮🇪
I suggest Ace Attorney Phoenix Wright to be a line up for this channel. It’s a critique of the justice system and even has a villain early in named “Redd White Blue”.
An absolute masterpiece, as expected. The use of the NPA footage was perfect!
Ha I'm glad you liked its inclusion. Wasn't sure if it was "too much", given this channel is casting a much wider demographic net than the main theory/practice channel, avoiding heavy jargon, advanced theoretical concepts, etc., but the response seems fairly positive so far
@@LeftonReplay It seems to be the right amount to introduce a wider demographic to this ideas and concepts without them instantly rejecting it
That's certainly a unique and interesting perspective. I'm glad you felt liberated enough to share this with the world. This video may not be perfect (you did imply Chara is inherently evil a few times), but it did give me something new to consider, which is more than I can say about most Undertale analyses these days. I finally get a break from all the "video game players toy with characters' lives for amusement and all video game enemies should be hugged and talked to" and instead get something far more mature and analyzed. Thank you for this, truly.
This was such a great video! I really love how you used your own life experiences growing up in Ireland to further prove your point in Undertale's message. Once getting further into the video, I was dying for you to mention Asriel's final message, and it's so great you didn't miss out on that. I feel Deltarune is Toby's way of telling the fandom that that was his message this whole time.
Ralsei embodies the way a lot of people see Undertale's message to be, in that being nice and never violently fighting your opponent is always the way to go, while Susie embodies what people imagine what Undertale dissuades, that being violence and constantly beating up what's in front of you. In the end of the game's first chapter, Ralsei and Susie both end up learning that it takes both sides of their respective spectrums to survive and thrive in the world. Ralsei finds out that fighting is indeed necessary during the King fight, and Susie ends up mellowing out her destructive ways by exposure to our and Ralsei's actions in battles, with it culminating in her using her combative nature to save Kris's life at the hands of King instead of doing it out of malice and hatred, and not continuing her assault when there was no need to, as either Ralsei puts King to sleep (perhaps as another way to show he's changed) or Lancer roles up with all of Card Kingdom's citizens to other throw their oppressive, which now saying it in text is also a good example of how this game is another good form political messaging.
So anyhow, thanks for making this video. With luck it can become really popular in the Undertale community, and we'll see more of it expanded upon in further analysis and even fan media. Keep up your amazing work!!!
man this is so good. ever since you announced you'd be pivoting to this sort of content on this channel i've been excited. media analysis is one of my favorite forms of entertainment to watch, but it's so rare to get a real, proper marxist perspective. gonna share this around a bunch. bravo
I'm so glad you enjoyed it! Well, judging by the overwhelmingly positive response from most people here, it seems like people want more of it - so there will be plenty more to come in the future 😊
I picked up on the humans being The Oppressors™ as soon as the intro played and I saw the torch in an angry mob. I just assumed everyone picked up on this, alongside the obvious justification for the monsters starting fights, and didn't find it interesting to talk about lol.
I really do like this video, great analysis and your personal history with the subject gives you a good point of view on it I think, and other people breaking things down for me has always helped my own personal understanding of it even if I didn't miss something before (I did miss things that were mentioned in this video).
Also I think the reason so many people get the "Always Pacifism No Violence Justified" message is from Toriel interrupting the Asgore fight in True Pacifist, which she stops because Frisk Is Like An 11 Year Old Child My Dudes. Also because Asgore was planning on Literal Genocide Of The Entire Human Race Apparently????? I feel like that obviously crosses the line over to becoming the oppressors and people just didn't pick up on it
Ya know... I've never even played Undertale but I'm still gonna watch this
gigachad.png
Did not expect to genuinely enjoy a Marxist analysis of Undertale, but here I am pleasantly surprised!
I always loved Undertale. It's where I found my first online communities, and it exposed me to people outside of just the country folk I grew up with. It always stayed with me, and you did justice to it. Awesome work man!!!
Thanks @silverthered ! Delighted to hear you enjoyed it, and that Undertale itself has had such a positive impact on you.
Can I ask, where do people find these communities? I'd like to get more involved in places like that too
@@LeftonReplay Oh, this was years ago, I was just a kid. I joined ROBLOX Undertale roleplaying communities, which exposed me to people who weren't raised like I was for the first time.
I was raised in a rather conservative household- 'was the first time I was exposed to new views.
@@LeftonReplay You find groups on different sites, forums, social medias, etc. and start interacting with people who share your sentiments. It's essentially just making mutuals and having people direct you towards new things. That's how you discover cool niche stuff.
It’s not a exclusively Marxist perspective
(edit: ignore this post. I'm wrong, and the video pretty much is a marxist analysis. I mistook the exact meaning of what a marxist analysis is)
-this is not a marxist analysis of Undertale at all. Marxist analysis focuses on the class struggle between the upper and lower classes in capitalist society or similar and oppression caused by the class divide. This isn't class divide; it's species divide. It focuses on the struggles between a stronger species and a weaker species, except the hostilities are cause by the potential of the weaker species to get very powerful. It doesn't really take it to the extreme, as reality is way worse than Undertale (pick up a history book if you don't believe me. Seriously, the monsters were very lucky). The video focuses on that species divide and not class divide.-
hmm i think some of these examples kind of just fall apart when you look closer at it. when it comes to undyne, papyrus and others, its clear that their character development is all about realizing that its impossible to view frisk as an enemy, and that killing a kid is wrong, freeing them from asgore's propaganda.
frisk and the other children function as hostages gradually being killed to fulfill their demands. papyrus, undyne and asgore all realize that a much better strategy is to accept and foster allyship with those of the oppressor group who are friendly to their cause. toriel, sans, alphys and most of the overworld npcs also seem to have realized the needless bloodshed. therefore i think equating frisk with an oppressive state or structure dont fit in at all.
the general idea and themes I think you're correct about, but i think this is mischaracterization
While I'm on the opposite side and agree with the analysis of the video, I do want to acknowledge that there's still credit here. When I first started getting into Undertale, the idea that monsters had souls that were different from human souls somehow, and that monster souls are "inferior" to human souls, I found foreign and strange. For some reason, I was always under the impression that all souls are equal.
Plus, the monsters are described as being "made mostly of magic" which is why they turn to dust when they pass on, which is directly juxtaposed in-game by how it's different from humans. It's such a big deal that it's a plot point; determination make monster bodies melt, because their bodies can't handle it.
A human being able to handle and manipulate determination is what allows Frisk/the player to manipulate the timeline within the game.
I don't understand how these diegetic properties of human souls, monster souls and determination are supposed to correlate with the discussed themes and lessons purposed in this video. I can't think of any real world correlations that make sense.
However, I still greatly appreciate the thematic lesson of oppression, as the monsters were very much oppressed by the humans and forced to live underground.
By the way, if some monsters just raised that child and also made them not kill (if they were doing so), they would eventually die of age, granting the same results.
@@pedroivog.s.6870 yep, it really was a stupid idea
@@MilkJugA_ i know the human wanted to get out too, but it's nonsensical to take the king's soul for that. The true Pacific ending was apparently going for that: if not for flowey interference, they would have taken care of Frisk while searching for some other way out, just like the neutral Pacific (the one you date Alphys but but don't enter the True Lab)
@@pedroivog.s.6870 It should be noted that if they _did_ just wait until a human died of old age, a loot of people simply wouldn't live long enough to see the surface, as they'd just die of old age too. A whole ass generation until their freedom is a big deal, even if that doesn't, y'know, actually make it warranted to speed it up. That said, even as that's an issue, it probably wouldn't have really mattered anyway, _until_ the 7th human, since like... Okay, getting a soul earlier is valuable, _in theory,_ but uhh, if it takes 400 years until human 4 and 5, that's not exactly going to help... Like, at all? So yeah uh, that's really mostly just for Frisk's situation, which, had some unique circumstances, to say the least.
Kinda random to say but ya know, maybe between the two thoughts of "alright I'll watch it later" and "I should check the comments a bit"... they probably shouldn't go _together._ Sorry if I'm missing context, 'cause uh... Yeah. 💀Well hey, if I get a notification, that might be the cue to return. Very planned.
wait i thought everybody knew this
i mean the war was about oppressing the monsters and trapping them in the underground
An excellent analysis, except that it misses a key, critical context: frisk is a child. Yes, a human child, but a child nonetheless.
This child fell down a hole, and almost immediately is attacked by a monster who disguises itself as a flower, symbolic of how oppressors will use violence to lure in the opressed to a trap.
The child is then beset by most of the monsters in the Monsters domain. While there are "civilians" in the towns that are non violent, the majority of Monsters are looking for a fight, and either need to be persuaded or killed. Those that don't tend to have negative views of all humans, and generalize them as butchers and bad guys.
Frisk never oppressed anyone, and is contrasted by the young monster singing Undyne's praises, who like Frisk wasn't alive during the War that saw monsters pushed underground.
This is highlighted at the point where Undyne reveals Frisk as a Human, which sends the young monster into a confused state in the normal/pacifist route.
Frisk in those playthroughs didn't match up with the image of the bloodthirsty Humans, which causes a cognitive dissonance in the child as they are confronted with how wrong they were about Humans.
I could go on and on, like how Chara is never celebrated while Frisk eventually makes friends and is loved by many monsters, how some monsters go way too far like Flowey or Alphonse/Gaster in the lab, etc. The parallels are there, which is part of why this game is a masterpiece.
Who is alphonse? No but seriously how did alphys and gaster go "too far"? Alphys just attempted to extract monster souls as well in order to subsitute human souls. And we dont know anything about Gaster.
Also, another interesting detail is Frisk not being considered human by Sans and UNDYNE in genocide.
what did gaster do bruh he just created a dark world and then proceeded to become god or whatever
@@idioticlight lol, you right, I meant Alphys. Not sure if that was me or my phone, but nice catch.
I think creating those monsters out of what used to be her friends is at least a step too far. That was because they tried to add determination to dust from monsters.
It doesn't go well, and we know Gaster was directly involved, although not to what extent. Still, being involved with creating what even monsters considered to be abominations is not something I would consider in line.
Monster Kid assumes Frisk is just another monster. Then Undyne 'rescues' monster kid at some point, and it is implied that Undyne scolds Monster Kid, telling them that Frisk is a human and that Monster Kid should stay away from Frisk. Then later on the bridge, Monster Kid literally walks up to you and says something along the lines of "Say something to make me hate you!"
That part always stood out to me, showing that hate is not something we are born with. Hate is taught to people.
The whole part with Undyne in pacifist I always thought was meant to challenge her views on humans. She might not have seen a human before and has no idea how dangerous Frisk is, so her gut reaction to act on Frisk in self defense makes sense. She probably grew up being told what humans were like in the context of the war between Humans and Monsters. Undyne's mentor was Gerson, who fought in the war between Humans and Monsters. The hardest thing we have to adapt and change are our worldviews that we were taught.
Toriel only seems to understand Frisk is a child because she adopted and cared for Chara, but we don't know how long ago that was.
@@leuexcedo9854 i mean, it was an accident, she expected them to die normally and just leave their souls behind. And the families dont mind their new.... state, and are just happy to see them alive.
I've never really considered this angle in depth before! This was really interesting. Though, I think it is notable that the murder of the fallen humans is not portrayed as a good thing. It's framed by Toriel and Asgore as a very bad thing. I don't think it disproves the messaging or anything, but Undyne isn't portrayed as being in the right for trying to murder a child, either. Frisk and the other fallen humans weren't necessarily justifiably killed, but the relationship between the oppressed and the oppressor does make it more complicated.
Amazing video, comrade, truly brilliant. Everything you said in the video was perfect. I really learned a lot from this actually, and it just made me show so much more appreciation for this game and for Toby's brilliant incorporation of this message. It is right (and justified for the monsters in Undertale) to rebel, using force against the oppressors, as it is the only way they can achieve liberation and freedom. Very important to distinguish between the genocidal and subjugative force of the oppressors and the emancipatory force of the oppressed. Also, regarding the brilliant Kwame Ture speech, I watched the full video linked in the description and there was another thing he said that particularly stood out to me as complementing this message, he said: "If we could achieve our liberation, if we could achieve our objective by being non-violent, we be non-violent, but if in order to achieve the liberation of our people we have to throw some hand grenades, we're chucking them" (at 16:16).
Again, great video, thank you!
Sorry for the essay of a comment lol
Thank you so much for the kind, thoughtful and encouraging comment! I completely agree, Kwame Ture's words are incredibly powerful and illuminating. Really happy to hear you enjoyed this and that you got something useful from it.
nice pfp
@@RichConnerGMN Thank you! :) I like yours too
This was a really good analysis! I've seen one other video essay say something about how Undertale isn't strictly preaching pacifism and even they didn't really touch on the nature of how the violence of the monsters (or at least most of them) against the player character is entirely justifiable and understandable due to the history between the two peoples.
that was soooooooo good, i even get emotional a couple of times
! Thank you so much! Wasn't sure how the new media analysis channel would go down, so I'm delighted to see you're enjoying this and hopefully getting something useful from it
@@LeftonReplay oh i did get something useful out of it, cuz i too thought this game was about violence bad, but damn, it is soooo much more ...i kinda wanna replay it now
@misadate8688 You definitely should - you find something new to enjoy every playthrough. For such a linear game, there's so much variation in what can be done within it
13:30 i will need to say, this point is kind of weird using CHARA of all people as the example of the oppressor. you know, the fallen child who killed themselves to try and free monsters and destroy humanity, the oppressors. even involving chara muddles the message a bit, because of how complex and messy their existence is.
furthermore, undyne has dialogue implying that, before meeting the player, she wished to seal humanity into the same exact underground oppression that monsters once faced. this gets even WEIRDER when you consider that CHARA, the name you placed on the oppressor, has immense respect for undyne. at least, if you believe in the full narra!chara theory, during the genocide route, this is the only time that Chara shuts up, and talks about undyne only in respectful terms. chara is the one who calls them the true hero, which i think might be one of the reasons no one ever discussed this point. because your two biggest contextual examples of characters, have a ton of muddiness around their characterization, especially in relation to this exact point.
on top of that, where do Asgore and the green SOUL fall into this? Asgore declared war on humans, and through their soul trait, we can assume the green soul likely went through the game similarly as to how we do, and yet in the face of Asgore, they end up dead, by the same monster that we end up fighting and killing, at least, in the neutral route. and in the pacifist route, toriel chastises asgore for his deceleration of war on humanity, even though in this context, it would feel more justified.
ill be honest, i completely agree with all your points politically, but as much as i love toby, i feel like you are enscribing FAR too much intent into his work. i dont think toby actually wrote undertale as nuanced as you make it out to be, especially when bringing up all these holes in your point of using undertale as an allegory for the concepts of oppressor vs. oppressed violence.
perhaps it inadvertently ends up supporting this point most of the time, but getting down to brass tacks, i feel like if undertale truly was trying to demonstrate this point, it would've done a much clearer job doing so. i do believe in death of the author though, and i think you do a very good job of re-contextualizing what i feel like were sometimes just jokes to tell a more poignant message on the roles of pacifism and violence in relation to oppression.
Regardless of the past, Chara becomes the epitome of an oppressor to monster kind. And Narrachara theory has too many holes in it to be considered viable as evidence for anything
@@ItsB1998 lmao but chara literally talks during geno. which is where my evidence is from. regardless ive never heard an actually good counter to narra!chara, so please go ahead and explain. it doesn't cover the rest of the issues i brought up regardless.
@@cognitiveAfflatus Chara talks to Frisk at the end of Genocide. I don't have to get into Narrachara if you don't consider it relevant to your main points
Just gotta say, this is beautifully done. Thanks for bringing this analysis put, comrade
I'm actually really interested to see if this plot point continues on to deltarune with the darkners and lightners, as the darkners already accepted their "perpous" serving lightners, and ones who don't often end up discarded, but the issue of the servitude dynamic between the two worlds always gets sidelined in favor of fun adventures in the dark world, so all the darkners always come off as very one dimensional characters when they really have a lot more behind them. I hope this may tie in with the protagonist, kris, who also seems to have an assigned perpous (being a self insert for the player, which often makes it so their own feelings and opinions are ignored) and longs for freedom, so they might sympathize with the darkners more and find a way to liberate themselves and the darkners
This video is disgusting
One of my favorite videos on the Internet now.
You said so much that I couldn't properly put into words for the longest time, thank you for that.
Can't wait to see what you do next!
my dude your voice is so relaxing for some reason i just fell asleep to this
Wow, that was incredible. I have never thought about Undertales story like that. Great video, can't wait to see more media analysis.
Don't think I've ever heard someone describe any of my videos as incredible.
Thank you so much @OmegaCJS ! That means a lot. I'm really happy to hear you enjoyed it
One of my favourite takes on the message of undertale is the idea of the lives of the few under the lives of the many. Which kind of fits into the message of oppression. The story portrays humans as a collective mass of hatred, and that is why Frisk is constantly killed and fought. Because humans are bad. No matter what their stance is, they are oppressed into the general mass of the rest of a group.
They can change their mind halfway through, they can have everyone's best interest, they can have everyone's worst interest, but it doesn't matter. Because they are one voice against the voices of a mass. It's really interesting, honestly.
and this is actually a fun thing to talk about because it ties into one of the most commonly mentioned parts of this game, and that's minorities. There are monsters who are viewed as lesser. Mad Dummy is one of my favourite examples of this. The 2 training dummies in this game can be represented by groups that are seen as 'inferior'. One of the examples I can give you is representing the ruins training dummy as the 'silent' oppressed. The ones who take the beatings who take the hatred. Mad dummy is the opposite. The 'loud' oppressed. The ones that fight back for justice. Mad Dummy was never a bad guy. He wanted justice. But he also lost the same justice through it, represented in how he forgets the ruins training Dummy's name.
they're still oppressed. people ignore their feelings for the sake of "hey i need to get stronger." A real world example of this is queer people being used to give-mostly straight girls in schools-clout to people because 'they're friends with the gays!!!1!one!!1' They're being used for personal gain.
The feelings of these two training dummies that happen to be sentient are pushed away for the sake that other training dummies take the beatings, or so we can assume.
@@quas3r__ sorry to nitpick but i believe mad dummy goes by she/her? (because of mad mew mew and all.)
@@cloudsdale its alr, honestly i forgot about mad mew mew but i honestly dont really see it as that important. not to say pronouns aren't important dont get me wrong, but i mean the whole mad mew mew thing because its an easter egg only available on one platform and outside of that its never really mentioned. so i dont really know
i've been a fan of undertale for awhile, so seeing someone analyze it in a way similar to how i've felt really stuck out to me in a good way.
when the game first came out, i thought it was boring. the pixel art and black-and-white fighting stage were the biggest turnoffs for me. later on, in 2018, a friend was playing the music back in the green room before my first play. i found myself pretty quickly humming along, but was still reluctant to give the game a try. then, in 2020 i believe, when the pandemic hit, i found myself with a lot more time to just scroll absentmindedly through youtube. i kept seeing undertale stuff, and things about its 5th anniversary. i figured i'd watch a few videos, and thought it looked more interesting than i gave it credit for, so i finally downloaded it on my switch and played through the pacifist route with my family.
and, holy shit. it was the single best game i'd ever played. granted i wasn't a heavy gamer, but i played deltarune as soon as i could after finishing undertale, and i was just as enthralled.
every time i hear the music, i remember that night backstage, humming along to "home" and "nyeh heh heh!" while getting into costume and makeup. how much i still had to learn about theatre, about undertale, and myself. it's a refreshing wave of nostalgia that reminds me to just breathe, and remember how far i've come in those five years.
undertale and deltarune will both always hold a special place in my heart, regardless of how our perception of it may change with time.
This was not the analysis I expected! Though to be fair I wasn't really sure what to expect in the first place. Great video and analysis nonetheless! Looking forward to future ones from this channel!!
Cheers! Tbh, I never expected I'd be making this video, but here we are. Great to see people enjoying it. Plenty more to come
@@LeftonReplay I'm very happy about that! Cheers!
I wanted to add that the separation of Toriel and Asgore is a microcosm of the ways there's internal disagreement among marginalised people of the best way to respond to their own oppression.
Never thought I'd hear a fucking Connolly quote in an Undertale video essay
OR BOBBY SANDS
You're welcome
@@LeftonReplay ✊
I cannot fully express how much I appreciate this video and how it helped me understand what this game was trying to say. I missed out when Undertale came out and miraculously avoided most spoilers for it up until December of 2022, so I came to it new, as an adult. By the end, I knew that it was trying to convey a message, but for whatever reason, (personal bias, ignorance due to privilege, or naivety,) it was always lost on me, just out of grasp. This whole video helped me understand and it makes so much sense. I feel like every new story I hear about someone's personal takeaway from Undertale, I learn a new way to look both the game, and both how I think about things in my own life.
What an amazing and refreshing analysis of one of my favourite pieces of media! Very well written video.
As a fandom we started referring to it as the "no mercy" route. But going back to its original name, the genocide route, is a very poignant and striking literary choice to me, especially after I havent heard that name in a few years. I dont know if this was a conscious choice but I wanted to point out a very strong creative decision that might not be as noticed in a very clever, well researched video. Great work on the video overall, I cant wait to see more of your content!
We changed it to no mercy because of TH-cam demonetization
Personally I think calling it the “no mercy” route doesn’t make sense. “No mercy” just implies that you kill every monster that encounters you and go on your way. “Genocide” implies that you specifically seek out and kill EVERY monster - even ones that don’t want to fight, which makes much more sense IMO.
To me, the “no mercy” route and the “genocide” route are different routes.
none of the route names are official!!!!! they're all fan-made, so any analysis of them reflects on whoever happened to call them that first, not toby
You forgot that they covered the "Words sometimes fail" with a mechanic.
If you leave an enemy with low HP. you can force them to spare you, making them unable to fight anymore
I will someday go on that way on a "FUCK YOU!" Route, you dont kill, you just beat everyone until they let you pass
This is done specifically to trick you into killing toriel.
This was more well written and robustly analyzed than my MA thesis!
Fantastic video. A great breakdown of the two forms of violence, loved it
Thanks @copacelu93 I'm glad you enjoyed it
Great video! I personally played Undertale late, around 2018 or 19, but the game really stuck with me, from the characters to the music, etc. But looking at the game through this lens makes a lot of sense, that it is just a fight against oppression. Well done comrade!
Thanks Brandon. Great to hear lots of fans of the game for its purely artistic, aesthetic, and gameplay elements now coming to appreciate it politically more deeply as well.
Definitely worth giving it another playthrough in light of this lens to view the game.
Thanks again for the comment, it's really encouraging!
I think Undertales message was forgiveness. Because you forgive the monsters that hurt you. And now they are trying to be your friend because they have seen the brighter parts of the character Frisk. I would say that the humans slaughtered the monsters because they feared the possibility of the monsters absorbing a human soul. Indigenous people could also be a focus on Undertale’s message, although it didn’t strike me like that. Because it’s the same reason that racism well has hurt different human races.
Freedom for the monsters, the humans would attack them mercilessly again, or so I believed. But it seems in the game the humans accepted them with open arms. Albeit they are learning to adapt with the monsters.
Actually, Undertale is a very educational game and that's because that world is similar to ours.
I can give an example of learning from there. Example: That one's actions have consequences.
well now i know what to tell to the people that say that "the genocide (or neutral) route is the logical route because the monsters are attacking you first"
Will you be analyzing more video games or shows/movies?
I will indeed. This is just the beginning
I find it very interesting that you use your personal experiences of growing up in Ireland during the Troubles considering how much the story of the game is based off Irish mythology itself. The theme of a race of supernatural creatures existing underground and the factor of falling into a mountain to enter it as a mortal is thought to be a play on the story of Oisín entering Tír na nÓg with Niamh.
yeah, i guessed that frisk represented a society, not a person. much of the story doesn't make sense if you think of frisk as a random kid who fell into a dangerous cavern
That was a lovely video. Inspiring to pair it with the footage of the NPA at the end. There's a world to win!
Thanks Jess! There was no way I could pass up the opportunity to squeeze the Filipino revolutionaries into a video about liberation 😅
But we only see the monsters' side in the game, why do we take their word as the truth? Funnily enough this was a really liked reply here: "Besides which, Undertale is a work of fiction, so such nuances don't really apply", I realy doubt Toby just wanted to "plainly" say humans bad, monsters good. We know how strong monsters get if they take a human soul, flowey literally turns into a god when he takes six souls. So I really struggle to believe that monsters' story was completely unbiased as well as not a single human being killed. Plus what if monsters started the war or the genocide and then somehow lost? Would it mean monsters were in the wrong when killing the six humans (and trying to kill the seventh) even though the "oppressors" would be long dead by now, would it be the oppressors (monsters) continuing the oppression? No, I think it would be the same thing you say despite the roles being reversed, monsters wouldnt kill you because they are violent but because you will be their freedom. I do have more thoughts about this but other people said them much better than me (like MutedAndReported3032 and gonzalomeadearanda5751)
I think you did a great job at describing the edge cases in relation with the game, great video!
This video is truly beautiful, and it's message grew on me more and more throughout the 30 minutes. Amazing that after all these years, I can continue to find more wonderful, intricate details, stories, messages, etc. in this game that i have and will adore. Thank you so much for making this video and for detailing something I no doubt needed more explaining on considering my very privileged background lol. Cant wait to see your others videos!
I'd never thought about this before, but you're absolutely right. I don’t have nothing to add sadly.
I look forward to your other videos on this channel.
This video is disgusting
i'm curious how asgore's actions would be interpreted under those lenses though, because while the people cheer and believe what he's doing is just, the game also goes out of its way to heavily shame him through toriel, is that a conflict in the message or is there something i'm missing?
I can see something about Asgore taking things too far, as eradicating all of humanity is probably a little extreme.
If that was the actual objective intention, then the story more or less failed. Toriel was very much shown to us as an unreliable narrator who is simply stating her own view on it and who also acted suboptimally regarding the situration she was in.
@@lpfan4491 true, still i do wonder what her function is in the story following this interpretation tho, hell both toriel and asgore seem to have some interesting twists in this interpretation.
@@lpfan4491 Happy to see this simple truth is not lost on all Undertale fans.
Not a fan of Undertale personally but I went ahead and shared this video with multiple others who would be into this and smashed that subscriber button. If you see this comment because I linked you this video, you should subscribe to Paul's new channel. Always very insightful and a voice of clarity, in my opinion. Good luck with your new channel, Paul! :)
Absolute banger video
I can't wait for what you have in store for the future of this channel
Really appreciate that - plenty more in store. Hopefully it'll up to expectations 🤞
Yay excellent job!!!!!!! Hope to see more analyses from u :’) I miss undertale so bad and I didn’t make this connection of it not universally condoning violence but you’re honestly so right and it just makes me love it more. Toby fox truly knocked it out of the park …..
Loved it! Excellent work.
Commenting for the algorithm.
The breakdown and presentation is very well put and I can definitely feel the emotion especially when you got to undyne's part 😉
Hope to see more! Can't wait to see what will you analyse next.
Thank you for the deeply kind words - hopefully the algorithm gods will accept this offering 😅
The algorithm came in clutch with this one. Looking forward to your future output
arent you appling here the concept of "collective punishment" to every human who falls into the underground?
I mean the game kinda adressses this when Toriel leaves Asgore (she was against killing children BTW). This also explains why they adopt Chara and integrate them to the Dreemur family, the monsters werent always this hostile towards humans. They became that way after Asriel´s and Chara´s passing, it wasnt the "sense of freedom" nor the "acknowlegment of opression". It was because the whims of monarch who felt angry at the moment then felt remose for calling himself a Genocide back against humans (His plan is once he gets the human souls himself hell absorb the souls become a god and not even give the humans the chance to live underground but Str8 up kill them)
IK you dont have this Knowledge in hindsigth but the new "lore book" Toby fox (the autor of this game) tells us he is against what Asgore stands for and actually calls him "A bad king"
Even after all of this.... what did any human to fell afterwards has to do with the war other than, the were born into the most powerfull class, so therefore they should be punished for that?
look.... Ik you have a backstory of your own with colonial powers.... I do to Im Mexican I know how it is to live under the USA´s thumb. But the world isnt a ONE ISSUE THING. The world has a lot of thing going for it, we as humans are not made for understanding everything that happens all the time at the same time, so to understand the world we live in we make stories, but sometimes this stories we make cloud our vission and poison our mind into beliving everyone is against us.... so we convince oursleves of our stories and push back against people who hasnt hurt us in any way shape or form:
"They were just born into the evil ingroup" so we judge them under that, isnt that opression on of itself, i mean it may not be but is the same logic that justify said oppresion.....
I hope you dont had any wrong intentions with this video and that is only a misunderstanding, but understand me when I say (And i do mean no insult towards you).
You didnt get the game...... you didnt understand the game at all! I may have some issues with the message of "Violence bad" myself I may agree you on people giving it more importance than it deserves and i may have some "Undertale critisisms myself" But you missed the mark here
the king didn't needed 7 souls at all, one was already enough to make them free, but the king was lost in anger cuz the lost of both of his children.
that wasn't a fight for liberty anymore, but a fight for revenge
the queen knew that and she broke up with the king and run away to the ruins.
Left to Replay had some misunderstandings, but explained very well about the oppressor and the oppressed thing.
maybe i'll talking shit, but your 6th paragraph is like black people hating white people only cuz they're white, it is really fkd up.
cheers from Brazil.
u are fking right
Exactly
Great comment
I think the quote that sums everything up is by Asriel, "Don't kill or *be killed* "
This might be my favorite analysis of the game of all time. Great job.
Hey, random black person who did a lot of critical race analysis of media in undergrad here. You really, really might want to rethink this video. As a longtime fan of Undertale, I genuinely hope that Toby wasn't trying to do any social commentary about race through the promotion of pacifism in this game or it'd REALLY bum me out.
First of all, the baseline of your argument is concerning. Any civil rights 'allegory' where one of the species is human and the other kind of fails from the start. If you want to attack the history of oppression you can't start with the viewpoint that one 'race' is physiologically different from the other- that misses the point. Racial differences are socially constructed to make oppression easier. Current social differences among races are socialized and still don't apply to everyone within a race, because the boundaries of race are incredibly unclear. (ex: AAVE, not every black person uses it). You mention scientific racism and the use of racism as a tool of oppression, but miss that race itself isn't an inherent human factor from its outset. I mean, consider the implications? Do you really think that Toby Fox, a white man from the USA,really felt that had the authority to call people of color monsters? That he wanted to portray people of color as buying into that message by calling THEMSELVES monsters? Adding in the fact that historically (and still today) people of color are often portrayed by dominant classes as inhuman, animalistic, etc, this perspective on the story REALLY leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Furthermore, applying your race analogy to the plot of the game has some really,,,fucked results. A racial construction of the events of undertale turns it from a story about kindness into a white savior narrative. Whether you're thinking about South African Apartheid, Hatian slave uprisings, or the United States Civil Rights Movement, people of color have always been the ones with the power and DETERMINATION to create change in their own lives, NOT the ruling class. A story that centers the kindness of one good ruling class member while sidelining the basically helpless, woe-is-me lower class members (Alongside one cool hero who ultimately doesn't win) is at best disingenuous, and at worst, propaganda. The theme of Undertale is that your choices matter, and I seriously, seriously hope that Toby wasn't suggesting that the actions of one good upperclass person would save the sad (but surprisingly SO KIND) poor underclass. To my knowledge, racial oppression has NEVER been fully solved with pacifism. While you distinguish violence for liberty from violence for oppression, under this framework, violence for liberty ultimately doesn't work. (See below).
Other thoughts:
-Undyne's violence isn't celebrated by the game. Yes, in universe people love her (like asgore), but she's ultimately proved wrong for it. There's literally no ending where she wins that way. If she beats you, its game over, you don't see the end of the story. If she fights you and goes full out, she literally melts from trying soo hard for it. She doesn't live on eternally- in the context of the game she's DEAD, bruh. Undertale doesn't really strike me as a game that has anything to say about afterlives or whatever, so the girl's gone. And, of course, there's the fact that the true ending is the one where she befriends you. Monster Kid loses respect for her, similarly to how Toriel has lost respect for Asgore. If anything, Undyne and Asgore are critiques of basic utilitarianism- one life for hundreds is wrong, yadda yadda. These characters are not an instructional guide for facing oppression.
I don't like the construction of Frisk as the antagonist from a race perspective. Despite being human, they're presented first and foremost as an innocent (a child). Are you really saying its up to one nice white kid to undo systemic racism?
In all, I can get why you'd want to apply race to this story, but it definitely makes it worse. There are so many other readings that have readings more consistent with the tone and positive reception to the story.
Thanks for the comment. There's a lot here, and I noticed you followed me on Twitter, so maybe we can work through these points in DMs?
Edit: we spoke in DMs and it was a really productive conversation. Will provide a clarification and correctional comment here soon
So after talking about this in more depth with Slippery Tummy and considering the matters from two different perspectives (a US-based anti-colonial perspective and an Irish-based anti-colonial perspective), it's become clear that a few key points need to be made clearer and corrected:
- Firstly, this is a reading of Undertale that takes a "death of the author" analytical approach, so it should not be assumed that the message of this video was consciously intended by Toby Fox himself. With that being said, nothing exists in a vacuum. We live in a world dominated by imperialism and white supremacy, and all art produced in this context will reflect that to one degree or another. For example, Toby's use of the word "race" might have been unconscious. Regardless of Toby's own personal intentions with the narrative, this reading should be understood to stand on its own legs.
- Secondly, I didn't make it nearly clear enough that "race" is not a physical material reality, but has been entirely socially constructed as part of the justifying ideology for colonialism and slavery (think, for example, of those who have been racialised as "lesser" on the apparent basis of religion or nationality rather than skin tone). While this was alluded to in the video, applying this analysis to the world of Undertale can be problematic given how there ARE certain physical differences between humans and "monsters" (which is a vague umbrella category which seems to include everything from puppy dogs to fish-people). It's strange that humans should be cordoned off from the rest of these beings when there's such diversity already among the monsters, but the question of Souls in the game-world complicates matters. In any case, it's clear that this is a sloppy allegory with some potentially harmful implications (being premised on the idea that these different "races" actually ARE physically different, while in our real world race is entirely a product of social construction).
- Thirdly, with regard to the so-called "monsters" referring to themselves as monsters, the lens that I had viewed this through was one of re-appropriation on behalf of the oppressed. Think of any oppressed group who has had a slur thrown at them taking back that word from the oppressors and stripping it of its power, wearing it like armour. This form of thought is found in texts like Franz Fanon's "Wretched of the Earth" (a revolutionary anti-colonial political philosopher who participated in Algeria's War of Independence) - the colonised being the "wretched of the earth" that must liberate themselves. This book can (and should) be read here: grattoncourses.files.wordpress.com/2019/12/frantz-fanon-richard-philcox-jean-paul-sartre-homi-k.-bhabha-the-wretched-of-the-earth-grove-press-2011.pdf
However, with regard to this point on re-appropriation Slippery Tummy made a really good point. It's one thing for an oppressed people to re-appropriate a slur or negative trope for themselves, but it's quite the opposite for a member of the oppressor group to do this to the oppressed. So even if the "monsters" of Undertale DID decide to re-appropriate the term (hypothetically), the context of a white guy in the USA like Toby Fox pushing this term of oppression onto an oppressed group that represent the colonised is... well, let's just say he wouldn't exactly be staying in his lane.
But again, "death of the author" - while we can selectively point to certain elements of evidence in his work, Toby himself never claimed to be speaking for or on behalf of the oppressed.
- Fourthly, white saviors and allies. While this video is essentially encouraging the viewer to take the side of the oppressed in the struggle for liberation (wherever the viewer themselves fits into the spectrum of oppression), it was pointed out importantly by Slippery Tummy that in the struggles of the oppressed, the oppressed group themselves have to be the main focus. It is the oppressed who liberate themselves, not some white savior (or - game-world equivalent - human savior of the monsters).
Allies from oppressor groups are always welcome, but it has to be remembered that the ally shouldn't be the main focus of the struggle; the oppressed group themselves should.
The conversation ST and I had in this regard was particularly interesting given the different contexts that we approached the anti-colonial struggle from. In the US, there are countless cases of white "allies" taking centre-stage and co-opting the genuine struggles of the colonised for personal and political gain, meanwhile the colonised are routinely side-lined and ignored while the oppression continues. Conversely, in Ireland we've had an unusually positive experience with allies. Indeed, the Irish anti-colonial, egalitarian movement (Irish Republicanism - at the opposite end of the political spectrum to US Republicanism) was established by a settler-coloniser named Wolfe Tone who leveraged his colonial privilege to educate, agitate and organise tens of thousands of native Irish people (who, due to the English colonial Penal Laws, were generally impoverished, illiterate and living in destitution) to rise up for liberation from English colonialism in 1798. Tone, being a genuine ally, and not just some political opportunist, gave his life and liberty for the freedom of Ireland, centering the most oppressed colonised people at all times - those who Tone would refer to as "that great and respectable class, the men of no property". His genuine revolutionary allyship led to his death following the 1798 Rebellion, but the movement he spearheaded was the single spark that would light a prairie fire, with the torch being carried forward primarily by the native Irish masses who have fought non-stop since that time for liberation from colonialism under Tone's banner, with numerous historical advances as well as set-backs along the way so far.
So, coming from an Irish perspective, this video would have a more positive perspective on allyship between the oppressed group and class-traitors from the oppressor groups, hence viewing a benevolent True Pacifist Frisk in a more positive light. However, from a US perspective, a more cautious, skeptical approach to allies makes a lot of sense, given how it often hasn't worked out so smoothly in the States. So, that's a completely valid concern and important perspective. As a general rule, it has to be understood that it's the oppressed who will liberate themselves, not the ally. Even in Ireland, while the movement was started by Wolfe Tone, it has been the broad masses of native Irish people (primarily the poorest peasants and workers) who have actually carried forward the movement for Irish liberation. Tone wasn't just some magical "Great Man" who transformed history at the click of his fingers.
So lots of really important and productive points brought forward from Slippery Tummy's analysis. Thanks for the insightful critical engagement - love to see it!
@@LeftonReplay bro wrote a book-
What a phenomenal thread, thank you both for your thoughts on the matter and for making me appreciate Undertale even more for its depth and narrative/thematic complexity
This video is disgusting and is literally the contrary to everything Undertale represents
I was open, but this got way too continental for me.
22:50
Which side are you on boys
Which side are you on
Commenting for the algorithm and engagement. Keep it up, Paul
You know... this could perfectly explain why Kris seems to dislike humans in Deltarune: They're sided with the oppressed. Though the oppression is significantly milder in Deltarune, there's some dialogue that may hint that humans and monsters still don't quite meet eye to eye.
He was found by Toriel and Asgore in the forest and adopted later so his dislike to one of his kind would be understandable as he was abandoned as the child.
@@rafsandomierz5313we never actually got to know how Kris got adopted, but your point still stands. Just thought I'd clear that up!
Fuck, I wanna play this game now.
...I probably should've added a spoiler warning 💀
You'll still have a great time anyway. It's really cheap and available on most devices IIRC
I would disagree that racism is "undertale's message", I personally felt the core themes resided specifically around friendship, hardship and that you're more than the sum of your parts.
Quote by Neil Gaiman: “If someone tells you what a story is about, they are probably right. If they tell you that that is all a story is about, they are very definitely wrong.” Stories rarely have 1 main point and good stories never have a 1 main point.
Someone email this to Toby
this video taught me that pacifism is a privilege that we take for granted,
This coment is extremely dangerous and disgusting
this video is an instant hood classic
I can't believe that someone can make their first video so perfect. It looks like you hired a montage guy or learned how to montage yourself and just recorded your voice about your opinion, not with the intent to make some profit and money (as some youtubers do) but to express your own opinion and to make an actually interesting video. You are the true hero of youtube, I will genuinely wait for your next videos although there is a possibility that this is your first and last video, but I will not give up hope and wait...
Edit: I just read your comment and I am happy that you actually plan to continue working on this channel.
I love deep analysies of video games, they point out details that I never even noticed!
This really gave me a more appreciation of the story - I haven’t played the game, but I’ve heard a few game reviews before, and the history of human vs. monsters is more often discussed in a very fictional way, like it’s Lord of the Rings backstory with monsters vs humans or something. Your video helped me realize it’s not some kind of fictionalized history, but a powerful metaphor for real history of oppression
Fiction and metaphor go very well together, Lord of rings also contains similar motif about the opression, but the opression force there is Sauron it's very common trope in the fantasy genere.
I don't know where you got that idea that fantasy and metaphor can't go very well with each other.
@@rafsandomierz5313 never said they can’t go together
2:07 looks like a judge in January who threatened me with jail for rolling my eyes. Trial judge is better, tho. Before the bench, he was a defence lawyer for 31 years, so he knows cops lie.
It's funny too about passive voice: I noticed the cops' statements use passive voice for all their actions, and those of friendly witnesses, but characterize every little nuance about me -- and my mom! -- in negative adverbs and adjectives like "erratic", "abruptly" and "aggressive".
Trial was scheduled for one day, but that's because they didn't know I'm the unstoppable freakin' Mouth of the South! The Crown and the pigs really thought they were gonna put on a little razzle dazzle for the judge and I was gonna take it dry.
Anyway, adjourned until trial continuation on 19 April. Ouf...
Epilogue: The "good" judge convicted me anyway. Silly me...
This video puts into words the understanding I came to when I first played Undertale. Back when it first came out, I didn't really have the ability to explain what the game's message was, but this analysis puts it better than I ever think I could have. It also moved to me to tears, with the explanation of the force of the oppressed vs. the oppressor. It makes me upset that violence is something that can and must be used in the liberation of oppressed people, but I understand that it is still necessary.
Thank you for this. I am looking forward to more analyses from you!
This video isn´t only very good, but very important too.
You missed the hole in the Monster's wall narrative wherein it depicts an image of a monster that absorbed a human soul. How could they have that picture if no human souls were taken. Also, the monsters said it was not only the monsters' ability to take souls that motivated the humans, but also the monsters use of magic. But how could that be, because humans, too, could use magic. The story is more nuanced than you think because evidence suggests the monsters were lying.
This video deserved to be out much sooner. But better now than never! Thank you Paul!!
because the chinese and koreans still havent gotten an apology
-Delly
@@dadja_zhaba this was in context of talking about japanese WW2 war crimes. Also, good to see you Zhaba!