Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation? A Debate With Trent Horn & Dr. James White (Part 2)
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- If you missed Part 1, watch it here: • Can A Christian Lose T...
Watch Trent Horn of Catholic Answers and Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries debate the theology surrounding the topic: "Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?" This debate was moderated by Michael O'Fallon on January 18, 2017. Sovereign Alliance sponsored the event at the 2017 G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia with over 1,300 audience members in attendance.
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If you missed Part 1, watch it here: th-cam.com/video/oFs3vnTlnnw/w-d-xo.html
been their done that boring.
@Stuart Williamson
When?
@@pauloftarsus8145
Been where? Done what?
Salvation
By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
- Ephesians 2:8
The faith through which we are saved is the free gift of God. Our salvation is not based on our good works, on our best efforts at religion, or on our foreseen faith (faith itself being the free gift of God). Salvation is of the Lord, and it is entirely based upon his sovereign grace.
Our faith, therefore, is not in faith, or in self, but rests in Jesus Christ alone as its perfect and glorious object. If our faith was in anything else it could be defeated, be deceived, or be derailed. Our good works come and go. Our spiritual zeal has its ups and downs. Even our faith waxes and wanes. But Christ's work is always sufficient.
What a joy grace is! If we could earn salvation, then we could lose salvation. If we could lose salvation, we would lose salvation (remember even perfect Adam lost his perfection). But because salvation is by grace, our faith in Jesus Christ will never be disappointed or dismantled. It is as secure as God himself can make it.
Walk in that faith today. Rest in that grace today.
@@StandForTruth205 Amen
The cross examination section needs to be much longer, in all debates.... In-fact, it should be the new format.
Agreed in all honesty the real debate starts in the cross examination
Agreed. It should be 20% opening/closing statements and 80% cross.
White's interpretation of the scripture off the chart 😢😢 Once saved always saved is a dangerous doctrine
That's not what he argued for
Kenlo i want to see how brave you are to answer IF to you does Jesus Christ EVER ,,,un,,, redeem his OWN AFTER HE HAS redeemed them ? Kenlo can a born again Christian ,,,EVER,,, BE COME ,,,,UN,,, BORN AGAIN ?Does God put his own children on PROBATION If you say. .yes... to these qs to u JESUS CHRIST DOES NOT KEEP HIS WORD
Thank God for his grace and for his salvation .
CAN A REAL CHRISTIAN EVER BE ,,,,,UN ....REDEEMED JESUS CHRIST DOES NOT BELIVE SO OSAS IS TRUE TO JESUS CHRIST
I take heart in knowing there are real people in this world who really think and care about arguing for what they believe is the truth.
the truth is the more important than our lives
Both men did exceptionally well.
CAN Jesus Christ ,,,, un... redeeme his children? NEVER OSAS IS VERY TRUE PERIOD
@@theodoreritola7641 OSAS is a modern doctrine created by those who don't understand that God desires obedience from His people & not just expressions of belief uttered through peoples mouth yet their heart or souls are far away from Him.
OK tell me this then IIIIIFFFF you dont believe OSAS you HAVE TO BELIEVE Jesus Christ will ,,,UN.... REDEEM HIS OWN AFTER HAS REDEEMED THEM AND THAT HE WILL ABORT THEM OSAS IS THE GOSPEL OR A CHTISTIAN CAN BECOME ,UN, BORN AGAIN JOHN CH 3 VS 16 ,DO YOU BELIEVE JESUS CHRIST ?
"Nothing in my hands i bring, simply to the cross i cling." Thank you Lord Jesus
Amen!
You bring the will, the holy desire, to cling to the Cross. We consent to surrender to his Will. But clearly, we can withhold that consent... And yes, it is by God's grace that we consent; but we are not puppets, we are free to accept or reject that grace... In any case, keep clinging.
@@marianweigh6411
Nothing in my hands refers to a sacrificial gift,, I think every believer already knows that one brings the heart and manifestation of faith which is the essential requirement to cling , that is if one feels they must cling instead of stand in the saving grace our savior provides
Amen! Not by our deeds or any part of us but by His sacrifice and grace i am saved. I am His. When we truly are saved we are never taken out of His hand. Alleluia!
@Sim Amen :)
Trent Horn made me think my Son’s name in the future will be “Trent” Idol!!!
You can celebrate his birthday each year with a "Council" instead of a party! 😂
Also you really have to give credit to Trent for going into the Lions Den- G3 conference is FAAAR from Catholic friendly.
He's so sweating. Look close you'll see. James isn't
Romeo Sabaoth
The illogical summary of Jame Whites position
Noah Wells
No I am not.
Noah Wells I am though bud, what would you like to know about the Universal Church?
@@atruechristianforlife7787 can I ask some questions of yourself? Starting with this: Why is there still a Cleopatra's needle at the front of the Vatican?
Dr White's 10-minute closing is more gospel than what we get to see here in Nigerian churches. God bless him.
Amen and amen. I just listened to it and played it for my wife. It is the gospel promises without the confusing clouds blocking out the light. Amen.
Calvinism is false though, that's the paradigm he interprets scripture and the Gospel.
@andys3035 which part is false?
@foluwasoaribisala TULIP, Double Predestination, the idea of the damning of the Son. Calvinism has lots of problems.
Wow, I have watched James White debate for 20 years,,, this debate is one of those times he is really on the ropes.... He is doubting his position...look at his physical mannerisms...
God Bless Trent Horn.
Yes he is on the rope and may have spoke false doctrine. Only Dr Michael brown has put him on the rope until now. Good job Mr Trent Horn.
Are you blind??
Immutability!! God never changes so why would he change salvation.
Choose you this day who you may serve Joshua 24:15. "choose" maybe Joshua was lying. Hebrews7:12. For when the priesthood is changed, there also has to be a change in the law. No, not blind at all.
Vincent Sheridan they both don’t know the true God ( once saved always saved ) God Gave his only begotten son to the world so we , ( sinners) will call upon the lord Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior John 3:16
Horn for the win!
I’m a former Protestant, now Catholic. This debate, along with many other debates and various Catholic apologists helped my journey.
The final 10mins from both White and Horn, clearly demonstrate which view is more biblical 🙏
God is the final judge
Man cannot judge
So, you bend with every wind of doctrine? There is only ONE faith delivered to the saints and it ain't Catholic. Catholics' hopes lies with Mary and the Papacy. Pray that you go back to your first love.
@KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC I love the upbringing I had in the Protestant tradition. It taught me to love Christ and to love Scripture. But going deeper into my faith (Church Fathers, the consequences of Luther and Calvin's theology, etc.) lead me to the Church Jesus Christ founded, the Catholic Church.
@@barryclevenger7456 No, I was just willing to be lead by the Spirit in my look into the Church Fathers and the history of the faith. I went in believing the Catholic Church was wrong, hoping to find various Protestant doctrines. I came out of it realising the Catholic Church is the true Church that Christ founded.
Sola Scriptura (Bible Alone), Sola Fide (Faith Alone), Eucharist and Baptism are merely symbolic - among others, are completely unknown doctrines prior to the 16th century.
Wow, Dr White can really gaslight. Just because an atheist does not know God doesn't mean he doesn't know any truth at all. Taking digs at his Catholicism doesn't mean he isn't right about this topic.
Horn did a fantastic job.
Naw
@@manofwar2529 Yes he did. God bless.
Mr. Horn made absolutely no sense when he was trying to explain "the gift of perseverance". What's the difference between what he said and what James White was saying?
He lost right there....
@@graylad He lost nothing. The point that he made that he agreed with White only that God knows who will persevere to the end. We do not know who will persevere to the end. However, there are many people who are in a state of grace, in God's sight, who will disobey, (not persevere) and get cut off from God's grace, and won't persevere to the end. The multitude of Scriptures that he pointed to, show that there are people who are in God's grace, who will be cut off from God's grace because they don't persevere. Rom 11:22, Gal. 5:4, Heb. 10:29, Luke 8:13. Huge difference and Mr. Horn explained himself fine.
Matt all he did was add an extra unnecessary step in reformed theology regarding the P in TULIP. Cooperation of man’s will as necessary for salvation makes God not almighty or sovereign.
Remember God knew the one who would deny knowing him 3 times before hand
He knows those to endure until the end ,to receive his salvation. He will give them the heart to endure to the end
Summary for those inquiring about this subject: 1) You are born again and scared if you live in sin (meaning you live however you want indulging in your sin-not repentant) that you were never “among them” or “really a Christian” because you believe in once saved always saved doctrine. Or, 2) you’re born again and believe you can loose your salvation; thus, you are scared as to when you are going to loose your salvation because you are perusing living in sin and disregard God’s word.
Recommendation: See how holy you can live and still operate on earth instead of how much sin you can get away with and still get into heaven.
You are saved by grace, not of yourself, but the Bible clearly warns us not to live in sin as it is very destructive. And if you are born again and hate holy living, how or why would God take you into heaven? You will hate it. And if you do love sin and don’t want to stop even though you are born again, ask God to change your heart and to give you a desire for righteousness living -he will!
Well said! What a blessing this was to read!
False as if it was true nobody would go to heaven. Creater is much more powerful than your thinking.
@@trafficjon400 The 1st and 2nd point is my subjective perspective - opinion, not doctrine, so it cannot be false because it’s my opinion. And my 3rd paragraph is clear and in line with your statement that God is powerful and we are only saved by grace. I think you’re misunderstanding the point here.
We should realize that even our sanctification (holy living) is the work of God, the Holy Spirit, in our lives ang our souls/spirits.
What kind of a family do you lead Mr Horn? Do you disown them if they cross your “line”? Do they have any assurance at any time that they are part of your family? And if salvation is a gift that cannot be earned, how can you un-earn it? Also, you cannot lose what is eternal, can you, by definition? Finally, who on earth would follow a “god” that can reject you if you fail to measure up? Our earthly families have more empathy and compassion than that! I adore and worship my God and my Lord and Savior Jesus and am eternally His bond servant. With all respect, I am grateful for this debate.
James White's approach seems to be 1) for verses which seem to support faith alone salvation, lean on the verse itself (John 6:44), 2) for any other problematic passages, assume the truth of "the Gospel" in Scripture, and then use the weight of that to assert it's different meaning. He rarely interacts with the problematic passages directly.
For example?
Facts
Eternal security!
Jesus payed the price for (ALL MY SIN) at the moment of my “salvation” 🥰 there is no sin left for me to commit that can cause me to lose it. There is one unforgivable sin and that’s blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and somebody who has received salvation cannot commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. So yes once saved always saved praise God my salvation is not in my own hands because if it were I would surely lose it The very same way I earned the wages of death.
Romans 5:12
Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-
Eternal life was once in the hands of man remember Adam and eve? Even in their perfected state because they were not born spiritually dead, inheriting original sin as we do, they still sinned and fell. To believe that God I’d go through everything that he has for humanity in sending his son his only son to die for us horribly on the cross to then put that salvation that his son earned back into the same hands of his creation that lost in the first place would be a mistake that God cannot make as he makes no mistakes.
Eternal security😉
Ephesians 4:30 ►
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Who redeems us? 🤔 yes Christ Jesus, so the seal on our salvation can only be opened and redeemed by Christ. We cannot open the seal of our salvation as to lose it. That’s the point of the verse saying “ sealed,’ why bother sealing it if some sin we commit can just open and undo it ?
John 6:37 ►
All those the Father gives me (will come to me) and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
(Will come to me) , seems pretty sure doesn’t he. 😊. The verse doesn’t say all that the father gives me will come to me unless they somehow mess up and commit some sin that causes them to lose their salvation. ☺️🙏🏼 and praise God for that. One more ..🤓
Jude 24
King James Version
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you (faultless )before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
The scripture says we have peace with God through Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 5:1-2
Therefore, we have peace with God
5 Therefore, since we have been made righteous through his faithfulness,[a] we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 We have access by faith into this grace in which we stand through him, and we boast in the hope of God’s glory.
How can we have peace with God if we can commit some sin that could cause the loss of salvation. The scriptures says God knows the beginning from the end. So he knows all the sin I will ever commit in my life, yet the Bible says I have peace with God by faith in Christ because of the imputed righteousness of Christ at the moment of my salvation. So knowing that God forgave all my sin past present and future at salvation I have peace with the God that can see all the sin I will still commit after salvation, yet says I have peace with him anyway because of the faith he gave me in Christ Jesus our Lord. 🙌
2 Timothy 2:13
if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
Himself🤔 yes because the Holy Spirit of God is in us remember. And will never leave us. We may grieve him or quench him to the point he will not guide us but as scripture says, all that the father gives me will come to me, and I will NEVER drive him away.
Now if you have some scripture that seems to teach otherwise, please send it friend and I will show you how it doesn’t.😊. God bless🙏🏼🕊
typical of what all trinitarians do
@@TimKollat ◄ Matthew 28:19 ►
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, the Trinity “God head” in scripture.
Scripture is the reason why Christians believe God is Triune. The doctrine of the Trinity is the best interpretation of the Bible. Just as the Quran does not systematically expound upon the doctrine of Tawhid, the Bible does not expound upon the doctrine of the Trinity in any one place. However, there are five elements found repeatedly throughout the Bible’s text that are best interpreted through the lens of the Trinity:
1. There is only one God (e.g., Rom. 3:30)
2. The Father is God (e.g., John 6:27)
3. Jesus is God (e.g., John 20:28; Rom. 9:5; 2 Peter 1:1)
4. The Holy Spirit is God (e.g., Acts 5:3-5)
5. These Three are distinct persons (e.g., John 14:16-17)
So if there are Three distinct persons that are God, but there is only one God, we are naturally led to the doctrine of the Trinity: one God who subsists in three persons.
A verse that indicates the unity of these three distinct persons is Matthew 28:19, which says, “Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” All three persons in this verse share one name, because they are one being.
It is all about Jesus Christ not us. It is all about His grace not my works. Thank you Jesus for what you have finished on the cross. I am eternally grateful for your love for your blood for your righteousness not my own. 👑🦁💜
The exchange that takes place in another video about Galatians 5:4 is hilarious. Trent Horn pulled the thread and James White's argument unraveled pretty quickly.
Salvation cannot be lost because salvation is Christ. But the one who unites with Christ can be cut off. Once a saved person is cut off from Christ, he is lost. Salvation is not the one that is lost. It is the person that is cut off from Christ is the one that is lost.
Kindly disagree. Salvation is granted to all believers in Christ.
With our free-will granted to us by God we can choose to accept this salvation granted to us yet we must all do our part on earth.
Live righteously and repent of our sins when we fall to continue towards the path of salvation.
Think of the Prostitute who was to be stoned and Jesus tells her that her sins are forgiven… go sin no more!
She is saved yet must live and do her part.
“Works are of filthy rags” literal meaning of menstrual rags. Like James, if my salvation has anything to do with my intervention and some kind of covenant of works I must do, I’m DOOMED....
That is before the New Covenant You're literally quoting Isaiah. It is Christ which make our works good. What an absolute butchering of the Bible.
@@eternalbyzantium262 agree..Jesus says come to me all that are heavey and laden and I will give you rest..If we are so filthy Jesus wouldnt tell us to come. God is a God of second third forth........chances.
Im not a roman catholic, but I actually agree more with Mr.horns theology on this issue. In scripture, there are 3 people that we need to examine because this question relates in detail and in context on this issue of salvation. First is Judas, who betrayed Jesus and Annias and saphire in Acts chapter 5. Annias and Saphire lied to holy ghost and were killed instantly. New covenant. New testament. Would we say that Annias and saphire had salvation after lying to the holy ghost?? They obviously believed in the amazing works of the apostles, and the gospel of Jesus Christ. Would we say Judas had salvation after betraying Jesus?? Can our own actions destroy our gift of free grace that is given to us?
I don’t think that you can “lose” your salvation, but certainly a person can throw it away. And I am sure they can come back to it again, with God’s grace.
Agreed
Yes like the parable of the prodigal Son
Then they were never actually saved Jesus in John 6 and John 10 says you cannot lose your salvation. John in 1 John 2 says if they do walk away they were never saved any way Hebrews 3 says the same thing
@CJ P. are you Roman Catholic?
You phrasing it a different way is a distinction without a difference.
*throwing it away* results in losing possession of that which u once have. And that will never be the case for true believers
I love this debate,they are both respectful and humble.
James White DESTROYED his argument though!
If your a Christian,your name is written in the book and it will never be erased!
Because your enduring till thr end
I confess that every time a Calvinist uses some made up doctrine like "prescriptive will versus descriptive will" I really wish God would send lightning.
@Shane Stephen It's true. For some reason Calvinists really get to me. Electrocution doesn't have to be deadly. Maybe just a little singing. After about the fifth or sixth time the affirmation of a doctrine of Calvinism is put forward and immediately followed by being knocked to the ground by a bolt from the sky, maybe people like James white would take a step back. I know I would feel better.
Like many of you, I found this debate to be both fascinating and very thought provoking. As a former conservative evangelical, I was surprised to find Mr. Horn's argument so logical, well ordered and with a solid Biblical foundation. I can see from many comments that many of you felt the same...Which leaves some of you with something of a conundrum. How can the man who we know also holds to Mary as co-redeemer with Christ, Purgatory, and Transubstantiation among other doctrines, have a seemingly correct view on this topic? And if so, how does that impact the universally acknowledged "By Grace Alone, By Faith Alone" plan of salvation? While the essence of what Dr. White proposes is that we are all robots, some predetermined to glory without any input or participation in any way, shape or form. For those who may be interested, there is a third alternative which presents the gospel in a way that you probably have not heard before. If you might consider investing the time, you may see a gospel which is harmonious with both the Bible and itself. One which does not pit scripture against scripture nor does it have to force fit the natural understanding of passages so that they might comply with a theological model. Here is a forty second review of the TH-cam Channel which lays out this gospel step-by-step. It was unsolicited. I just happened to stumble upon it. Thank you. Grace and Peace to you. th-cam.com/video/0l2pIwbmAnEH/w-d-xo.htmlere is the link to the TH-cam Channel: th-cam.com/channels/db7ghP3lHTnpsuXUlFDBMw.htmlplaylistsIf you prefer podcasts, links to various podcasts are in the about section of each video.
@@herbshattuck6269 Thanks Herb. I'm checking it out right now. I appreciate your comment. It was very thoughtful and I agree with you completely.
I've had the chance to record a few discussions on this and similar theological questions. Maybe we could chat some time. I find it's better when I'm ranting about this stuff to have a sanity check in the form of another person participating in a discussion.
PEACE!!!
Trent Horn believed that God calls people that will come to Him due to with God' devine for knew who will accept him, this view one fatal flaw if God knew that we will accept Him but later fall from grace then why would God will call us from the first place. Im totally agree with James White that our salvation is based not on our initiative but from God's grace, mercy and love, and God jas the power to keep us, preserve us and continue to save us until the Lord's coming. God bless and thank you
So all the warnings of Paul just mean nothing then🤔
Throughout the new testament we are told to repent from our sins even as believers, why? 😑 But I guess you don't have to repent because God chose you and will save anyway, right?
Scripture says many are called but few are chosen.
Christ: Follow me.
Catholicism: Do all these, don't mess up but don't worry if you do because you can pay off God if you sin anyways.
Christ: follow me ( by believing in the eucharist and confession of sins)
Sir Calvin: No He doesn't meant that!!
Pay off God? Wow.
should this not be titled Can a Christian Lose His Salvation?
Why is grace even necessary if it is impossible to loose our salvation?
Trent Horn. You are right all the way! And there is nothing to add when this is so clear. The problem in the end is following the Bible, or, as Dr. White has done, follow your theology, despite the Bible. God Bless
Did you read your bible? How does one get born again? What does it mean to be born again? What does it mean to enter into grace and then fall out of grace? Is it the same as being born again? If entering into grace is the same as being born again then what Trent Horn is saying is that one get born again, throws it away ( falls out of grace ) and then of their own accord gets born again when they enter grace again...etc...etc...etc.....??? Right????
@@kevinrtres Ypu want to make being born again what it is not. Bieng born again simply means being saved.. Your calvinist lens of looking at being born again is what you are using to get someone to believe your point, but that poin will be only be valid if everyone buys into your version of born again. Bieng born again is being saved. It is when you join the family of Christ that you are born again, and that is salvation. Again take off the calvinist lens and read the Bible simply for yourself
@@stonykalangoministries It is impossible for a Catholic to read the Bible for themselves. Remove your beam first.
@@stonykalangoministries OK, so what does it mean to be saved?
By the way - why do you think Jesus used that analogy - the imagery that shows the one being born again contributes absolutely nothing to the process?
So if the one being born again cannot contribute then just who does all the contribution?
What part does the "DEAD in sins and trespasses" person play in being raised from spiritual DEATH?
So - again - just what does it mean to be saved??? To be saved in real, physical life sounds to me like someone who is unable to help themselves in a dangerous situation - and hence that person needs to be RESCUED, e.g. SAVED from whatever is looming!
So - again - just what does it mean to be saved spiritually?
I believe Mr. Horn won this debate and I say this as a Protestant.
Perseverance Is not an tangible object that you provide, when God gives perseverance He will put you through situations that will cause perseverance, is the same with faith.
TRENT HORN DEBATES A GREMLIN.
I'm a Protestant who leans towards Arminianism (I don't hold to eternal security, or any of the Calvinist doctrines for that matter, and have been researching it as Calvinism is popular amongst Protestants) - and jut want to say Trent Horn did a great job gosh, i would've loved to hear more explanations from James but we didn't get that lol, he questioned Trent a lot in attempt to trip him up, but Trent didn't really trip up and James didn't bother answering Trent's criticisms 😅
Dr. James White is very clever trying to hide the truth that a Christian should have to endure to the end.
Is there a transcript of this debate by any chance?
Very good debate, well done on both sides. But there was one that had a stronger argument. God bless them both!
vtr37 Thank you for serving our country.
Like many of you, I found this debate to be both fascinating and very thought provoking. As a former conservative evangelical, I was surprised to find Mr. Horn's argument so logical, well ordered and with a solid Biblical foundation. I can see from many comments that many of you felt the same...Which leaves some of you with something of a conundrum. How can the man who we know also holds to Mary as co-redeemer with Christ, Purgatory, and Transubstantiation among other doctrines, have a seemingly correct view on this topic? And if so, how does that impact the universally acknowledged "By Grace Alone, By Faith Alone" plan of salvation? While the essence of what Dr. White proposes is that we are all robots, some determined to glory without any input or participation in any way, shape or form. For those who may be interested, there is a third alternative which presents the gospel in a way that you probably have not heard before. If you might consider investing the time, you may see a gospel which is harmonious with both the Bible and itself. One which does not pit scripture against scripture nor does it have to force fit the natural understanding of passages so that they might comply with a theological model. Here is a forty second review of the TH-cam Channel which lays out this gospel step-by-step. It was unsolicited. I just happened to stumble upon it. Thank you. Grace and Peace to you. th-cam.com/video/0l2pIwbmAnEH/w-d-xo.htmlere is the link to the TH-cam Channel: th-cam.com/channels/db7ghP3lHTnpsuXUlFDBMw.htmlplaylistsIf you prefer podcasts, links to various podcasts are in the about section of each video.
@@herbshattuck6269 Sir you do know that the bible is consisten with itself right?
I would be very slow and careful (to not say unwilling to deny the word of God which is the Lord Jesus John1:1;14) to go this fare and say that a sheep of the Lord Jesus can be lost in eternity, because John 10:28 clearly say´s that this will "ou me" --> "never not"= doppel negative--> happen to them and if you follow the text it speaks of the sheep givin to the Lord Jesus by the father and this is makes someone think about what? Well the Key passage to understand what it is to be given by the father John 6:37-44 notice there that your "free will" to left Jesus by your own decision, which Trent says about vers 37 "he will not cast out anyone, but you can leave"(in Vers 37 also "ou me"--> never not" so thats true) vers 38 say´s that the Lord Jesus came down from heaven TO DO the will of the Father and Vers 39 says "This is the will of the Father who has sent Me, that of all whom He has given Me, I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."
So you see here consisntency in the Text of Scripture and i assume you are Roman Catholic? So you understand by your system Vers 38 that the Lord Jesus came "TO DO" the will of the father, not to TRY TO DO, not to MAYBE FAIL TO DO OUR NOT, BUT TO DO the will of the Father and you saw what the will of the Father to his Son is in Vers 39! That HE(the Lord Jesus) of those the Father has givin Him, shall lose NONE, but raise it up on the last day
Trent talked of beliving and staying and holding to the end, that´s absolut true. But isn´t there a writer of the Gospel that makes it clear that there are two types of faith? Faith that perish and ungoing faith? This writer is the Apostel John and he uses for true faith "beliving"--->
"pisteuōn" as ungoing faith John 8:40 well the once which have this faith that does not end but continues is explained from the same Apostel in his first letter 1 John 5:1 Whoever "believes" that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves the one born of the Father. "belives-->pisteuōn" so if you do not pisteuōn what does this mean? You are not born from God, because those who are born from God pisteuōn.
Sir this is a hard message, because it breaks everything in you that crys out "i can do something to earn my salvation, there is something that God says i can do", the Gospel, the Cross shows that the only something that you can do is sining, rebelion and hatred against God. How much the price was, is shown on the Cross. He say´s it is finished. You and your system say´s it is not". Repent of your Sin sir an belive the true Gospel and not the men made system of earning salvation. Only then you will have true Shalom, peace with God trough his Son Jesus Christ. (Please notice that the reformed position is not the "once saved always saved position" and is not "the cheap Grace Gospel")
God blessy you in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, may he guid you to the truth in him John 17:17
@@Christian.Portugues.Francisco Thank you for the time it took to compose your reply. Unfortunately, it does not accurately capture my point in some ways. If you re-read my comment, I think it is pretty clear that I am not a Catholic. In fact, I am a former evangelical much along the lines of Dr. White when I began to try to harmonize scripture to that it did not contradict itself. What Dr. White tries to do with Hebrews 10, for example, should raise major concern in everyone. They should petition the Holy Spirit assuming He is present within them to harmonize this passage, as but one example, with the position you are proposing. If you are so inclined, I attached two links which walk through the gospel in fair detail. It will, for example, explain what Jesus really meant when He proclaimed, "It is finished!" Most evangelicals claim He was speaking of His work being complete. Yet, we are told that He ever lives as our Great High Priest, ministering in the heavenly tabernacle forever. Clearly, His work is ongoing. This is again, but one of the evangelical errors that has taken root and is causing such confusion. May the Lord lead you to the truth as well, my friend.
The bottom line is…. Do we cooperate with God’s Graces or Do we NOT
have to cooperate with God Graces? The Bible is clear. Thats why we must work out our Salvation with fear and trembling. That’s why Paul said ‘not that I’ve obtained it yet.’ If Paul has that concern , then so should I !!! So many more verses prove this out! And the
mental gymnastics that James has to do and especially to know that James’ view was Never believed in 1500 plus yrs proves that his view is NOT the Truth. We must Endure to the end. We must run the race and Finish the race! That’s what the Sacraments are for! Christ’s work is finished! We now must follow Him! Pick up your Cross and follow Him! Repent when you fall. Get back up ( thru confession) ! This is the Way. It is the Catholic Faith!❤️🙏🏻. blessings to all on their journey!
Even Paul couldn't judge himself if he is saved from the lake of fire while he was alive. Only God knows people!
May you cite a definitive, categorical Bible verse on such a claim. Thanks.
@@gulangcesar3552 FACTS THATS INSANITY GOD WANTS US TO KNOW
When Paul said that there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, and that God hath not appointed us to wrath, isn't it a solid assurance and security? What you have ascribed to Paul is utterly unscriptural.
@edsel Solon and yet Jesus said “you will know them by their fruit”
I guess 1John 5:13 is a lie !!!
Trent looks confused in his positiion being roman catholic or arminian. Then Dodging the question that if you loose your salvation, what you should do to get it. His confuse with the plan of salvation and making reference of people rather than Bible.
While White reference for John 10 seals the argument Biblically.
54:10 Whote keeps using the phrase “perfect enough”. What he is trying to propose is that “i can do nothing to the level that Christ did it so it is not important for me to do it at all”. To hold any other position makes his use of the phrase merely an exaggeration meant to trick the last person into agreement because of the understood fact that only God is perfect.
This is a great debate. In my humble opinion we all need to read the Bible. If we do not read it, we are not having a relationship with GOD. If we don’t read it, we will never get to know Jesus. And we will never get to know ourselves!!!
Sooooo can you lose your salvation?
Boy do I have a debate for you to rewatch.
Praise God for the assurance of salvation. The Holy Bible of Jesus Christ is the answer to any question you may have. Jesus Christ is the only way to eternal life. Many words that sound good won't lead you on the right path of salvation. You don't have to pray to anyone or confess for sin to anyone other than Jesus Christ. This is all comes from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
can someone pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaase mention FREE WILL.
I just did see my post to James White, above.
Morgan Sorensen
Man I've been watching the Trent horn podcast lately and he's made so many valid points along all of the videos I've watched but man, James White in the most respectful way, demolished Trent in every way I can see and I'm very open minded to whatever the truth may be. His consistency was very key.
I disagree, I believe that Mr. Horn decimated Mr. White. I'm not even RC. I think the bible is clear that once someone is saved, by grace through faith alone, after this, the Lord Jesus Christ commands us to live a Holy life and not sin wilfully and the bible tells us the list of these wilfull sins not to do. The Lord Jesus says to REPENT of our wicked ways. The book of Peter tells people that have come to Christ not fall back into the world, because it will be worse for them then before they believed. For example. 2 Peter 2:19-22.
2 Peter 2:19-22
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
God bless you brother, in Jesus name.
Maybe you watched a different debate. On this one, it wasn't even close. T.H. eviscerated J.W. Please read other people's comments.
I do find it interesting how we can have such different opinions about who won.
To me, I felt that if one judged by confident tone-of-voice, it was evenly matched until the Q-and-A time, after which White took the lead. But, if one judged by point-for-point "clash" (e.g., providing reasons why Scripture Passage XYZ did or didn't mean what the opponent claimed) then I felt Horn did rather better than White.
Eternal Security, of course, is not a topic that anyone debated back when I used to judge statewide 2-man team and Lincoln-Douglas-style debate matches thirty years ago. But if this pair had come before me back then, I'd have given the match to Horn.
Why do people perceive these things differently, I wonder? I suppose there's more than one reason.
At any rate, no matter who wins, I'm always surprised that more Calvinism-inclined Christians don't detect the one sure take-away that these debates yield: That they should never feel entirely complacently confident in the security of their own salvation. These debates necessarily yield that practical conclusion, because...
(a.) that the scriptures are sufficiently ambiguous that the doctrine is unknown for 3/4ths of Christian history, making the truth of the doctrine a debatable among intelligent and well-informed people; and,
(b.) Calvin and others in his tradition readily grant that there is such a thing as false security -- that is, people who think and feel that they're in the elect, but aren't.
Given (a.) and (b.), a person who both holds Eternal Security and believes himself to be among the elect should immediately question both, at least a little bit. After all, he knows that, given (a.), only a person loaded with intellectual hubris would be 100% confident of that his (minority) interpretation was correct...and hopefully his confidence isn't mere hubris. Moreover, if Calvin and Turretin and others are correct about those with "false security," then the best he can claim about HIMSELF is something like, "Well, the Elect know they're saved; and some of the non-Elect also (falsely) know they're saved, and the best I can do is hope I'm one of the former, not one of the latter."
it was like watching a contest between an old beat-up truck racing a Corvette. White got left behind in the dust.
If a person is "born again" and thus Christ now lives in that person, including the Holy Spirit, and now has a new nature...that is being a "slave to righteousness", how is that going to change? Will God abandon that person? No, I don't think so. And somehow Trent Horn does not recognize that Judas, son of the devil, was never saved....so he can not be an example of one who lost his salvation.
I think to a certain extent, both White and Horn are incorrect. I don't think God picks winners and losers, rejecting some and picking others; rather we all have a choice to accept Jesus or not based on hearing the Gospel. Many people choose not to. But for those who do choose Jesus as Savior, if we are to trust Scripture, that God now lives within us, then I see no reason for anyone to become "un-born again". God says He will be faithful even when we are not...and I trust His Word.
as most of my brothers in the comments im definately not a catholic but this guy nailed everything according to the Word here...
Psalms 51. In view of man.
1Have mercy upon me, O God,
According to Your lovingkindness;
According to the multitude of Your tender mercies,
Blot out my transgressions.
2Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
And cleanse me from my sin.
3For I acknowledge my transgressions,
And my sin is always before me.
4Against You, You only, have I sinned,
And done this evil in Your sight-
That You may be found just [a]when You speak,
And blameless when You judge.
5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
6Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.
7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8Make me hear joy and gladness,
That the bones You have broken may rejoice.
9Hide Your face from my sins,
And blot out all my iniquities.
10Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11Do not cast me away from Your presence,
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
12Restore to me the joy of Your salvation,
And uphold me by Your generous Spirit.
13Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners shall be converted to You.
6 is key here.. hidden wisdom. Given to any who God sees worth to give.
My second point is.. Love one another which is the greatest law. To forgive is to love. All sin will be forgiven except the sin against the holy spirit. Clear as day.. Don't speak against the holy spirit you will never be unforgiven. MANY BLESSINGS TO ALL.
What an excellent debate! I love how Trent appealed to Calvinists by exclusively quoting Scripture. He only referenced the Catechism when it showed common ground with Protestants.
You are just a catholic cheerleader. It is clear that Trent lost the debate. Couldn't answer the questions of Dr. White.
He quoted a lot of men more than he did the Bible. His reliance on the truth is not based on God and His truth, but based on what other people say/think.
Most of you watched a different video than I did. White destroys Horn's argument in the first question.
Paul Byrd www.alislam.org/book/christianity-journey-facts-fiction/
Paul Byrd th-cam.com/video/bd0cidJHe_0/w-d-xo.html
@KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC I disagree. they're very worthwhile for knowledge and apologetics. the guys on stage aren't going to change their minds for sure, but it's for the audience. I think minds are changed.
Fantastic job Mr Trent Horn. God is definitely with you. God bless you always in spreading the truth.
He is with him,for now!
This was a great debate!
Trent wins hands down...every time White raises his voice you know he's losing
Salvation cannot be lost.
Read the Parable of the Unmerciful servant
Says who? You or Sir Calvin?
Horn did a Flower move: *analogesis*
I want you all to re-read this scripture a couple times. "For by ONE OFFERING (willingly dying on the cross) HE (Jesus) Perfected FOREVER (past, present, future) them that are sanctified"
The parts here that should be standing out are these:
1.) One Offering. Meaning we can't offer anything, He died once and everytime we apply ourselves to the equation we are saying that His death wasn't sufficient. Daily repenting of sins, your good works, nothing can be added to this ONE offering. His offering is more than sufficient for those who put their trust in what Jesus did for us on that cross.
2.) Perfected Forever. He didn't cleanse you from your sins in the past. or in the present only. He perfected you FOREVER. You are completely washed, cleansed and received the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ from believing in His offering on the cross. FOREVER. Past - Preset - Future - You have been forgiven of your trespasses, and Jesus is never going back on that cross again. Sealed with the Holy Spirit until redemption and don't ever let anyone tell you otherwise.
With that said we have a personal responsibility after knowing who we are in Christ to seek newness of life, to walk in love towards one another and remove ourselves from the things of this fallen evil world which take away from our walks with Jesus. Perfect? Never in the flesh, but we have been perfected IN CHRIST because we believed in what He did - not of our works so we can't boast about saving ourselves.
You too as you read this can be perfected if you haven't been yet. Simply by understanding that we are all sinners - we've all fallen short of the glory of God. And the penalty for falling short and sinning is eternal separation from God. But while we were all sinners, God came down in the form of human flesh in Jesus Christ - willingly died on the cross for our sins, was buried and rose 3 days later. If you can read these words and believe in what I am telling you today, you will inherit the Holy Spirit of promise and will be washed from your sins! The Lord knows who truly does and who doesn't believe in this - we can't fool God. But I pray today many of you read this and believe in your hearts that while we can't save ourselves, Jesus can! And your faith in what He did is the only way for us to become justified in the eyes of God!
Perfected by His ONE Offering...Forever! Thank you Jesus.
Timothy Wayne yes now if you’d just combine that with confessing when we do sin as commanded in 1John and 2John you’d have a perfect doctrine.
His blood is not an unlimited credit card to be used each time we feel like doing our guilty pleasure, If all we needed to know was what you posted martyrdom would have been pretty dumb over the centuries because nothing we do including denying or confirming we are Christians (Which is a WORK) would cause us to lose our salvation.
That perfect offering of Jesus is made present again in the Catholic Holy Sacrifice of the Mass
@@vincentsheridan284 what?
@@Dexion845
Mal 1:11" For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and there is offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts."
A universal Pure offering, the sacrifice of Calvary
Re=presented in the NOW ever present Sacrifice in Heaven.
Rev 5:1-7, before the Altar in Heaven the Lamb standing as if
slain.
Rev 6:9, Rev 8:3-4, Rev 9:13, Rev 11:1, Rev 14:18, Rev 16:7, Altar
in Heaven where the Holy Mass is ever-present
Jesus is referred as the Lamb 28x in Rev.
Hebrews 13:10 " We have and Altar, whereof they have no power to eat who serve the tent. "
1 Cor: 10 :16 The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?
Why does it say in revelations we wash our robes in the blood of the Lamb
Always down to what did Jesus teaches & warns us. Obedience. Jesus said take heed one deceives you for many will fall on faith. Trust Jesus 4Gospels. Always the Catholic Church fullness of the truth
It appears that Catholics confuse the event of salvation with the process of sanctification. This gives them the false belief that they can and should work their way to heaven. They add their work to Christ’s atoning work and that is NOT the Gospel.
Troy Cross th-cam.com/video/bd0cidJHe_0/w-d-xo.html
So, the message I got from Trent was that if you apostatize then you can’t come back? Got it, praise God….
43:02 ding ding! The boys were only a moment away from this debate turning into a heavyweight world title boxing match.
Timothy Freeman hahahahahahahaha
Our theology should come from to The Bible, not the Bible from or theology, that's so true for all protestants denomination at the end The Bible is coming from the Catholic Church.
Juan Martinez Then why does the Catholic Church continually contradict the Bible?
My sheep hear my voice and follow me and I will raise him up on the last day. If you are a sheep to begin with. You can't be a sheep and then be transform into a goat .
To be honest guys the levels of both guys are so high that pretty much people will just accommodate to the team of their preference, the people that say White was not doing a good job never provide and example and Trent also did an excellent job. Even when im still in the perseverance of the saints camp. Both feel like in the end, both beliefs merge with one another, Trent says you have to persevere to assure salvation, White says the the real save ones will persevere as a proof of their salvation, i was analyzing and even when it looks like they're contradicting each other, i think theyre is a point in which they're singing the same song but different rhythm.
The main reason im still in the persevere of the saints camp is simply because Trent says that big sins like apostasy will make you lose your salvation, but how many sins did Adam had to committ to send everything to hell?
At the end of the day both of them have the same goal: Belivers should behave like belivers and persevere.
I favor White in this one, but i think after these arguments, the real answer will be found in the next life.
If you think you can lose it with enough disobedience, then you think you have to merit it with enough obedience.
clear salvation by deeds.
The whole conclusion of Trent, he could apply to himself.
Jame White did not answer why is his theology about salvation was not believed by the early Church for 1,500 years. Because it is new and man-made.
Jepoy Meneses Exactly the time the Church entered the Laodicea era.
Revelation 3:19 - “Those who I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent
That statement is probably gibberish to a Calvinist who thinks he can never lose their salvation no matter how much disobedience.
@@Dexion845 So how much disobedience is necessary to lose it? Is there a metric to measure too much disobedience?
Randy Couture enough to where you cannot hear God and your conscious is seared. This is a relationship with a real person. You can’t expect to be unfaithful in a relationship and not have your spouse divorce you. Secondly the obedience comes from a heart that loves God, its not some kind of a measure of performance. Obedience is being sorry for when we sin and we turn to God and repent of the sin. Jesus paid for all of our sins but we need to throw those sins on him when or if we commit them.
@@Dexion845 Two things...you're wrongly conflating human relationships with God, Salvation is a gift, you never had to do any work for it, it was given by Grace through faith alone, which is also a gift. If you say you're able to get this immeasurable gift taken away then you have an issue with what Philipians 1:6 says.
Secondly, man in and of himself is hostile to God and cannot love God unless God acts on their heart and grants them repentance (2 Timothy 2:25) and after the repentance has been granted, the repentance and new heart cant then be taken away. Jesus told Nicodemus that being saved is like being born again, and Nicodemus was puzzled by how this could happen, and Jesus told him that the Spirit of God has the freedom to produce people who are born again regardless of human input, the exact same way you didnt have an authoritative choice in when and where you would be born. So if your salvation depends wholly on God then your salvation isnt going to be rescinded just because of sin, you sin every single day, you will sin tomorrow, and you will sin next week, if someone is *truly* saved then that status cannot be taken away. You used the analogy of divorce which is off since the actual analogy that is used is that of adoption. God does not adopt us as His children and then unadopt us. Once we are adopted into God's family we are expected to behave in a manner worthy of being God's children, and when we err God is faithful and just to discipline us, but He never casts out anyone He has already adopted.
While responding to "perseverance" in section 2 Trent Horn appears to be dancing on hot coals when he revealingly states "that gift (of perseverance) may be given to people who, because they love God and continue to love God, won't resist." And while discussing Romans 4:6-8, Mr. Horn must "infuse" his synergism to supplant God’s sovereign right to save whom He chooses (justifying His elect through the imputation of Christ's righteousness) so that man remains the final authority in his salvation. So man determines who and how God will be allowed to exercise His grace. This may be the predominant view but I'll stand with the "few there be that find it".
Romans 4:6-8 is based on the Psalm 31 (LXX). The Psalm is about coming to God in faith and confessing and trusting in him. He sites this as opposed to the stance of Judaizers who argued that you must be circumcised and follow the outward Jewish Law to be accepted as God's people. Check out the verse 5 of the Psalm according to the LXX, where the same word "ἀσεβής" is used, the very same word St. Paul uses in just a verse earlier (Romans 4:5). These such passages are grossly misread by the heresy of the Reformed theologians. (I am a convert from Calvinism to Orthodoxy, not a Roman Catholic.)
I’m not catholic and never plan to be, but agree more with the catholic side.
A good debate. However both men create a Strawman each time a verse that stands against their "dogmatic" beliefs is quoted. My advice, don't fall for denominational dogmas to know Christ. Know Him for yourself through His Word. God bless you all.
Someone who believes in perseverance can easily explain in context the passages that sound as if a believer can lose salvation. Someone who believes that one can lose salvation cannot so easily deal with the passages that say a believer is eternally saved without wiggling or pulling their proof texts out of context.
I'm a Catholic, but at this point Dr. White makes more sense....
No he doesn't. I'm an ex Protestant now a part of the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church.
CAN a real Christian be ,,, UN.... REDEEMED?
Hahaha 😂😅
@@anthonycalipjo8669 im VERY SERIOUS Can God abort his own Children?
@@theodoreritola7641 If he is un-redeemed on a certain time,
he was not a true Christian
White constantly makes the fallacy that those who believe one can lose their salvation therefore believe we have to be perfect and sinless for our entire lives to then recieve salvation, and it's driving me crazy! Intentional misrepresentation of your opposition. Nobody believes the only way to salvation is by being absolutely perfect. The point is once we recieve the initial saving Grace through Jesus (I am Saved), we then must have to continue the "race" as Paul puts it, not give up even when we fall, follow Jesus and all He commanded of us (I am being saved), and put in the effort to keep and maintain the gift of salvation that was freely goven to us, until our time has come (I hope to be saved.)
THANK YOU TRENT.
Also; what about the scripture that says work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?
Linda Kingl do you understand the prescriptive vs descriptive point? This comes back to whether the bible teaches monergism or synergism. Make sure you understand the arguments both sides are making. That might take time.
Haha.. You should read the whole sentence and not stop partway in the middle.
So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure
The term "work out" doesn't mean you're in charge of it. I mean if you didn't have the rest of the sentence it would mean that in our modern day language. But this wasn't written in our modern day language and there is the rest of the sentence which tells you why it said what it said.....
2:13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure
Paul is saying work out the idea that things aren't always going to be smooth because God is in charge. And sometimes he put you in a bad situation for his own reasons. Which makes sense considering Paul is writing this from prison.
My beloved sisters and brothers. To my sisters and mothers. Wiping your tears is for true men's will indeed. It will come to pass indeed. Sacrificing your sons and daughters will bring tears IN YOUR EYES. True men will truly restore. Only tears of joy will bring tears in your eyes. Blessed you are all women. @LLOVE
Christen can lost his salvation if they are not really born again.If someone not really save , they can lost their salvation.Because so many peoples call themselves Christian not really born again.
It's a pity that those who had been saved will be lost again. Then the sacrificial work of Christ on the cross will be rendered USELESS. Is God a God of chance and not God of assurance? is our salvation by chance only? Then it will boil down to work if we want to get saved.
Yes 👍
Rendered useless for them. Not for those that continue to obey and abide in Christ.
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Hebrews 10
@@Salvation-Damnation your work has nothing to do with your salvation, it is Christ that saved you and not your work it is the gift of God Ephesians 2:8-10. Christ atoning work saved us. Our good work is just an evidence that we have been indeed renewed by the Holy Spirit that indwells us. Those who don't have the Holy Spirit will not be able to do it.
@@reynaldobellocillo1911
Letter to the church of Sardis
“To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’
Letter to the church of Thyatira
“And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write: The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this: ‘I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first. But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you ACCORDING TO YOUR DEEDS. But I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them-I place no other burden on you. Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come. He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to pieces, as I also have received authority from My Father; and I will give him the morning star. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’
Romans 2:1-11
Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.
Galatians 6:7-9
Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
John 15:1-6
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
Here in this last bible verses we see that it is the Father who removes you from Christ, you then spiritually die and you are thrown into hell.
Eternal security is a myth and wrong doctrine. Conditional security is all over the bible.
@@Salvation-Damnation if your god could not provide assurance of salvation, then your on your own and you don't need a savior. Babu!
Thank you Mr. Trent Horn.
I found these verses that confirm me to the Holy Catholic Church teaching:
2 Peter 1:5-11 (KJV) And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
By reading these verses, I know the accusation of man-made religion doesn't fit, unless he also accuse that those verses wasn't inspired by The Holy Spirit.
And these are prescriptive texts. The meaning is clear.
..good cheerleader but wrong doctrine.
Yes, making one’s calling and election sure is a good thing. However, the text does not say “He that lacketh these things is not saved” only nearsighted and blind.
@@ManoverSuperman read again: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall... So, if ye do not do these things, there will always chance that ye will fall...
And a blind man can surely have bigger risk of falling and get stumbled...
@@carlosc.templar3788 you mean dr. White? Sure. Calvinist hold wrong doctrine...
@@ManoverSuperman the topic is not about "not being saved" but about losing salvation... Can a Christian lose their salvation... The answer is Yes.
Judas Iscariot was a Christian too. He believed in Christ, he followed Him, yet he betrayed Him... He remorsed, but he lost his hope, and hanged himself...
Scripture is crystal clear in this matter.
Read these verses:
Hebrews 10:38-39 (KJV) Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
God would never give such warning if there were no people who draw back from their faith.
And these verses:
Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Remember, Lucifer was once a cherub. Talk to an ex-christian who became atheist. You'll know that the scripture is right, a christian can lose their salvation...
I wish we were shown Dr. James faces when Mr. Horn speaks 😂
I saw this debate years ago when I had been recently born again. I held off on forming an opinion as to the validity and veracity of both arguments in connection with the eternal security of believers until I read the scriptures myself with no preconceptions whatsoever. Five years later and having read the relevant scriptural passages addressed in this debate, I concur with Trent's views both on man's free will and eternal security as they faithfully adhere to the scriptures exegetically. The majority of the Lord's parables come together in a single reinforced theme, appropriately addressed by Trent. That said, I do not subscribe to Catholicism's idolatry and its other false doctrines. But on this particular debate topic, Trent's argument is accurate.
there is no idolatry nor false doctrines in Catholic Church... its what you dont understand about our Church... it did not interpret what Jesus handed down... it has the Fullness of Faith... its you protestants who pick and choose.. you wittle down Jesus teachings to your own interpretation... its sad you cant see that!!!
Segundo o protestante Jesus falhou durante 1500 e a verdade só surgiu como Lutero
Idolatry? Perhaps you don’t know what that word is? 😂 😂 😂
Amen.
I love how White tries to use the circular argument of Sola Scriptura to “prove” Catholics as being against the Bible. Typical Protestant maneuver. How hard is it to understand that the Bible didn’t exist at the time of Christ. The Church came first and so therefore, there is more to learning the faith than ONLY looking to the Bible.
I’m an atheist and this debate was very interesting. I think Trent clearly won the debate, as all James seemed to have was rhetorical devices and his select passages to cite. Though I don’t think it was a blowout; Trent did appeal a lot to a plain reading of the text, and a plain reading of many of the passages James provided seemed to indicate spiritual security. But James also didn’t show that any of the plethora of sources Trent provided weren’t prescriptive. I also think James should’ve pressed more on the deterministic aspect that he did in his first cross-examination period as I found Trent’s responses to be very weak. Trent came into the debate with the clear advantage in my mind, and I don’t think he gave it up once.
Thank you. I know that as an atheist you don't believe any of this and I appreciate you being this respectful.
In any case, would you consider giving the New Testament a try? You will see it is pretty evident there that salvation is conditional and can be lost.
Wow! To break down a question based off which stage of Luther's life Horn was referring to, indicates that Dr. White has the gift of discernment.
He seems to be smart in many ways
Dr. White cant see the scripture simply present that many believe but later can fall away .
When are Trent Horn quoting Hebrew that is beginning of the End of James White. In that moment James W is demolished. Trent Horn from the scripture reading destroy James White. Interpretation that part of Hebrew from Whites book is wrong not logical and not Biblical.
Not at all lol
Indeed.
Trent destroyed White on this and I'm not Catholic. His argument was logical and completely supported by the scriptures. White needs to re-evaluate his stance on this because he is off.
The prescriptive/descriptive idea cut the legs out from under Dr. Whites own arguments. He starts with his theology (prescriptive) and interprets scripture that debunks his theology as descriptive. How convenient…it also cuts both ways, which neuters his point.
Jesus choose Peter but yet Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers
Peter was afraid for his own life and therefore denied he knew Jesus, but he did not deny him as the Messiah and Savior, obviously he didn't bc Peter came back stronger than ever in faith and love for Jesus and his ministry.
Those are words for a chosen leader. That's why Peter's name always comes out first in the list of Apostles. That explains why Judas is at the last.
I could never keep my hold , He will hold me fast, He will not let my soul be lost.
Amen. If we are truly born again and changed in our hearts we will be sealed and kept in Jesus Christ eternally. I agree with James that when we are truly in Jesus Christ no one and nothing can separate us from His love.👑🦁💜the scripture is clear on this. A change only in mind is not true salvation.
@@elsablue3646 amen
This is true only if you repent of sins.
JUDUS NEVER FELL A WAY HE WAS NEVER A BELIEVER AT ALL
@@theodoreritola7641In Acts 1: 17. Peter clearly said that Judas was numbered with them and had obtained part of the ministry. In also said in verse 25:55 that Judas fell by transgression. To transgress is to sin and of course one could only fall if he was standing or secured in the first place. You can't fall except you were not falling at first.
I’m not catholic. I’m Protestant and more reformed in my theology, but I can recognize Trent Horn did a good job here. I appreciate how high a caliber this discussion is. It’s very interesting.
The path to destruction is very eloquent, enticing and smooth. The path to salvation is narrow and unpleasant and sometimes undefendable.
@@regelnews989 Exactly! That's why you must repent and confess your sins. You couldn't have brought up a better quote. It's not easy to get to heaven.
God bless 🙏❤️💙❤️🙏✝️🛐
I'm not a catholic either but Trent Horn is correct. The difference between these 2 men in this debate is that one is reading his theology and creeds into the text and other is not doing that. Both men know what they believe.
I will state emphatically that there abominable practices within the Roman Catholic traditions. The are heretical teaching in protestant traditions. Our practice and our theology must be derived from the scripture in context and as a consistent whole. You can't start your reading of scripture with a presupposition about the order of salvation and then exegete the text in light of the presupposition. That's the error for James White.
@@Unobserved07 You are over simplifying, I can agree Trent has some great points but he also brought his theology into the text, you see it clear as day when he is forced to speak on “foreknown/predestined” texts like Romans 8. The first 10min was ridiculously confusing as Trent tries to make arminianism fit with Scriptures dealing with ordained election, it doesnt work. If you go to the end of Part 1 you see Trent speaks on this “God looks ahead on who will accept him, etc.” explanation, its not at all what “foreknown” or “predestined” even means as terms.
@@ricoparadiso foreknowledge is quite literally to know beforehand. Predestined does not mean predetermined as in picked for destruction or picked for salvation. You are predestined to what ? To be conformed to the image of His son. This happens when you listen to His voice and follow Him, not departing again to submit yourself to the law of sin and death, but by putting to death the deeds of body so that you may live. For you are slaves to that which you obey. Does God force you to be comformed and obey him? Of course not. Now once you're ready to make a counter argument by using romans 9 without specifically referencing the old testament context for each example in it including, exodus/Jeremiah/and malachi, we can discuss what it means to have zeal without knowledge.
The problem is people have built a knowledge of God without diligently seeking Him as he has revealed Himself in His word. Ripping verses out of context to make a pretext by which to build a systematic theology of God, whereby nullifying the principle that God is the just and the justifier of those who love him is grievous error and dangerous.
After watching this debate. I realized. I will apply all verses. Not pick and choose. And Trent did an amazing job making me understand more.
What Trent did was to attempt a more inclusive perception of the content by reading it's entire message. It does give a better understanding of what the main points are trying to convey. I'd like to add that realizing how long the Catholic Church can actually go back and trace their origins as compared to the reformed church , it does open up more divisions that continued to form beyond the protestant reforms started by Catholic origins. So the promotion or progress of faith had more than 1000 years behind it up until the split. It does appear to be like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Well said, if you cheery pick then you will accept James's position.
th-cam.com/video/TbKAayHcQco/w-d-xo.html
CAN or will Jesus Christ EVER,,, UN,,, REDEEM HIS OWN AND ABORT THEM ?
IMHO Trent swept the floor w this guy and his bow tie. I love both their love for Jesus. Lord forgive me for the bow tie shade
Wow Mr. horn is awesome. perhaps eternal security believers over analyze things.
Yeah, because we treat the Bible as a whole (Total Scriptura) with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Reading a text without analyzing the context may cause misinterpretation. To sum it up the reason why I believe in eternal security is because Jesus had said it and the reason why their are warnings is to reveal to us who are the real Christians.
@@systemguy0110 amen brother
@CJ P. ummm catholicism is one of the denominations lol...
This debate proves to me that our labels can obscure. I am not a Catholic but the Catholic in this debate is making a whole lot of sense to me.
@Ed Mendez both used the Bible. They just have a different interpretations of scripture.
@Ed Mendez it is not his personal interpretation. that is called eisegesis. What James White is doing is called "exegesis" which is basically understanding the text in its original intended meaning. The original context. This involves investigating the historical and cultural backgrounds of the author, text, and original audience. Other analyses include classification of the type of literary genres presented in the text and analysis of grammatical and syntactical features in the text itself. What you're describing is "literal interpretation" which basically is understanding the text in plain language. This process involves trusting the Biblical tradition and bible translators. This leads to a number problems since the translators are not 100% reliable. The English or Latin translation is significantly different from the original language used by the writers when they write the text (Hebrew and Ancient Greek). Not saying that we are required to learn Hebrew or Greek. But in crucial theological subject such as the gospel or salvation, it is necessary to dig deeper to get an accurate understanding of the text.
No he’s not. The first mistake was him being Catholic in the first place. They worship idols.
@@pguiseppeman you are just allergic to giving people a fair shake aren't you. No points to make so you just attack the straw man you grew up with. Not here to argue because arguing via comments is dreadful, but show some fucking decorum man. No one has made more Catholics than people like you who bring nothing but toxicity to the table.
Agree. I am not a cathol8c but he is slaying the arguments of the ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED crowd. I have a new respect for catholics because of this view. (Still don't trust the vatican)
James White basically said in his closing argument that because Trent Horn is a Catholic that all his arguments from scripture are invalid even if they made sense. Not cool.
Andrea Blackshear th-cam.com/video/bd0cidJHe_0/w-d-xo.html
Jonine Blackshear not biased much, is it?
He's arguing against Rome's position/ideas of synergism, continued penances & the dogma of purgatory relative to one's sin & salvation. All of which is not in the Bible.
@@prayingpatriot8018 the Harlot Church
Where's the problem?
True Christians will endure to the end because Jesus intercedes for them. This is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. What an amazing authority of the greatness of Jesus.
Amen. Jesus prays not for the world but for those the Father has given Him (john 17:9) ( not only Jesus but the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us in our weakness, when we dont know what we ought to pray for) and willed that He not lose them but raise them up on the last day. (John 6:39) He prays that our faith fails not, much like He did for Peter. (Luke 22:32) Those whom The Father has given Christ from out of the world.(john 6:37) We are promised, guaranteed and sealed unto the day of redemption to everlasting life by the same power that raised Christ from the dead. (Rom.8:11) The effectual fervent prayer of Jesus the righteous avails much. (James 5:16) Therefore He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.(Heb.7:25) Amen.
This is the part where protestants brothers get it wrong. Jesus says he will not lose any that the father has given me. BUT that does not mean the cant leave on their own. That's why people fall away, no one took them from Jesus they left on their own. That's the difference.
Exactly! Why Mr. Horn "just doesn't see it" is beyond me. Dr. White further emphasize it in Greek in the closing statement.
You are so correct that True Christians will.endure to the end, btw just a quick question how would you determine a true from false Christian? I suppose we have to determine it's creation or origin. So the word Catholic were officially named around 300 AD. And they were the one who compiled the books in the Bible. The early fathers of the church translated it to different languages. I suppose they continue this work to spread the word of God. So they continued the mission passed on by the apostles. May I ask when was your church founded, I mean literally when was your church founded, I suppose you have Anniversary right? So is it possible that the early fathers where fake and after a very very long time somebody suddenly realizes the Truth. And uses even the most blasphemic reasoning, that God revealed the truth to them and so the new meaning of the words in the Bible can now be interpreted by anyone who claims it. Who do you think would know more accurately the history of your country, the latest historian or the people who lived and wrote stories during the time your country where discovered. Do you also believe that all details during that era were all written by the historian at that time. I guess not. So we have to consider the culture and tradition that were passed on into different generation. If a certain period in your country's history, you were colonized for a very very long time by foreign intruders and eventually claimed later that they are the true citizen of that country, would you believe them. Then I gues what we need to do for us to know the truth is to check on the facts. God bless us all.
@@elreyhats You imply that without scriptural proof. That would be like Jesus saying. “I’ll hold to you unless you want to leave.” What breaks the seal of the Holy Spirit? Man’s free will? You give too much authority to a sinner.
Impressed with Mr horn.....and I am persuaded by his arguments. Much to my surprise! I am not Calvin is nor catholic, but James white usually annihilates his opponents, and did not here. I am surprised I would ever agree with catholic on theology. I love these debates if you will talk to me that open mind you can really learn things whether they change your view or not
Well thats great to hear John
Mr. Horn state that Eternal Security is not part of Apostolic teaching. Really? Is Mary, Praying to Mary, Mary entering heaven in Bodily form, Mary’s is sinless, Mary never had children, sex etc, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, Priest,...........on and on, Gas lighting! He is the Apostate that he refers to, trampling on the Son of God. And yes, we all fall away every day! Thant does not mean you have lost your salvation. God standard for Heaven is perfection. Mr Horn like the rest of the work is far from perfect, thus he cannot save himself.. He needs a perfect sacrifice and savior.
@@CENTURY21JEANNINE you must be refering to another "Mr. Horn" the one in the video never claimed such nonesense that he was perfect, or that he would save himself. Hope this help
@@CENTURY21JEANNINE Everything you listed is Apostolic. Do you actually read the whole bible? Or just a few verses? For example- Priest- notice the word presbyter....
Titus 1:5, for this cause I left thee in Crete, ordain Presbyters in
every city.
Acts 14:22-23, Ordained Priests in every church, and prayed with
fasting they commended them to the Lord.
Acts 20:28, Bishops watch over the church.
Mary,
yes she is sinless and never had other children.
LK 1:28, Hail Full of Grace Note: the Greek word used is
“Kecharitomene” = Perfectly , completely endowed with Grace.
NOBODY in the bible is described in this manner.
Bodily form in heaven? well Enoch and Elijhah are in bodily form in heaven, Why not Our Lords Mother?
Gen 5:24, Heb 11:5, 2Kings 2:1-13, Enoch & Elijah were assumed
into heaven
Matt 27:52-53, Saints rose and were seen walking in the city,
where did they go? Assumed into heaven.
I can go on and on also showing purgatory and the Real Presence of our Lord in his Body and Blood.
John sullivan jr I agree 100% I am a born again believer and I completely have to side with the Catholic in this situation much to my surprise!
Thank you Jesus for saving me!
James white: if I don’t understand then it’s not understandable
It was Trent Horn who said that.
The Elect were chosen before the foundations therefore can not fall away, Gods grace is sufficient to get them conformed to the image of His Son. Everyone Predestined shall be brought to Glorification solely on Gods sovereign Grace
if you believe that, no need for the gospel and invitation from God and repentance
@@myraride9563 You've been blinded. If you are OF God, you will WANT the gospel, spread it to everyone you can, repenting of your sins, as you know Christ is your own means in salvation. Non-Calvinists do NOT know Calvinism, creating their own strawmen arguments to debunk and say "gotchya."
@@FabledNarrative you proved the persons point. If you’re always saved then there’s no need for repentance as long as you follow Christ. To be honest, demons are already in that category, they believe Jesus is the son of God just as much as you do. So what is it that distinguishes Protestants from the demons?
Calvinist filth
Trent exposed White on that even though Dr White claims that he is a Sola Scriptura, James added words to Jesus's words, in order to solidify his arguments. Dr White seemed to be answering questions Dr Trent didn't ask, but questions he perceived Dr Trent asked.
and he needs to Reformed words