Salvation By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God - Ephesians 2:8 The faith through which we are saved is the free gift of God. Our salvation is not based on our good works, on our best efforts at religion, or on our foreseen faith (faith itself being the free gift of God). Salvation is of the Lord, and it is entirely based upon his sovereign grace. Our faith, therefore, is not in faith, or in self, but rests in Jesus Christ alone as its perfect and glorious object. If our faith was in anything else it could be defeated, be deceived, or be derailed. Our good works come and go. Our spiritual zeal has its ups and downs. Even our faith waxes and wanes. But Christ's work is always sufficient. What a joy grace is! If we could earn salvation, then we could lose salvation. If we could lose salvation, we would lose salvation (remember even perfect Adam lost his perfection). But because salvation is by grace, our faith in Jesus Christ will never be disappointed or dismantled. It is as secure as God himself can make it. Walk in that faith today. Rest in that grace today.
I’m not catholic. I’m Protestant and more reformed in my theology, but I can recognize Trent Horn did a good job here. I appreciate how high a caliber this discussion is. It’s very interesting.
@@regelnews989 Exactly! That's why you must repent and confess your sins. You couldn't have brought up a better quote. It's not easy to get to heaven. God bless 🙏❤️💙❤️🙏✝️🛐
I'm not a catholic either but Trent Horn is correct. The difference between these 2 men in this debate is that one is reading his theology and creeds into the text and other is not doing that. Both men know what they believe. I will state emphatically that there abominable practices within the Roman Catholic traditions. The are heretical teaching in protestant traditions. Our practice and our theology must be derived from the scripture in context and as a consistent whole. You can't start your reading of scripture with a presupposition about the order of salvation and then exegete the text in light of the presupposition. That's the error for James White.
@@Unobserved07 You are over simplifying, I can agree Trent has some great points but he also brought his theology into the text, you see it clear as day when he is forced to speak on “foreknown/predestined” texts like Romans 8. The first 10min was ridiculously confusing as Trent tries to make arminianism fit with Scriptures dealing with ordained election, it doesnt work. If you go to the end of Part 1 you see Trent speaks on this “God looks ahead on who will accept him, etc.” explanation, its not at all what “foreknown” or “predestined” even means as terms.
@@ricoparadiso foreknowledge is quite literally to know beforehand. Predestined does not mean predetermined as in picked for destruction or picked for salvation. You are predestined to what ? To be conformed to the image of His son. This happens when you listen to His voice and follow Him, not departing again to submit yourself to the law of sin and death, but by putting to death the deeds of body so that you may live. For you are slaves to that which you obey. Does God force you to be comformed and obey him? Of course not. Now once you're ready to make a counter argument by using romans 9 without specifically referencing the old testament context for each example in it including, exodus/Jeremiah/and malachi, we can discuss what it means to have zeal without knowledge. The problem is people have built a knowledge of God without diligently seeking Him as he has revealed Himself in His word. Ripping verses out of context to make a pretext by which to build a systematic theology of God, whereby nullifying the principle that God is the just and the justifier of those who love him is grievous error and dangerous.
Amen. If we are truly born again and changed in our hearts we will be sealed and kept in Jesus Christ eternally. I agree with James that when we are truly in Jesus Christ no one and nothing can separate us from His love.👑🦁💜the scripture is clear on this. A change only in mind is not true salvation.
@@theodoreritola7641In Acts 1: 17. Peter clearly said that Judas was numbered with them and had obtained part of the ministry. In also said in verse 25:55 that Judas fell by transgression. To transgress is to sin and of course one could only fall if he was standing or secured in the first place. You can't fall except you were not falling at first.
What Trent did was to attempt a more inclusive perception of the content by reading it's entire message. It does give a better understanding of what the main points are trying to convey. I'd like to add that realizing how long the Catholic Church can actually go back and trace their origins as compared to the reformed church , it does open up more divisions that continued to form beyond the protestant reforms started by Catholic origins. So the promotion or progress of faith had more than 1000 years behind it up until the split. It does appear to be like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Jesus choose Peter but yet Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers
Peter was afraid for his own life and therefore denied he knew Jesus, but he did not deny him as the Messiah and Savior, obviously he didn't bc Peter came back stronger than ever in faith and love for Jesus and his ministry.
You bring the will, the holy desire, to cling to the Cross. We consent to surrender to his Will. But clearly, we can withhold that consent... And yes, it is by God's grace that we consent; but we are not puppets, we are free to accept or reject that grace... In any case, keep clinging.
@@marianweigh6411 Nothing in my hands refers to a sacrificial gift,, I think every believer already knows that one brings the heart and manifestation of faith which is the essential requirement to cling , that is if one feels they must cling instead of stand in the saving grace our savior provides
Amen! Not by our deeds or any part of us but by His sacrifice and grace i am saved. I am His. When we truly are saved we are never taken out of His hand. Alleluia!
These two did an outstanding job staying on a path of discovery in this debate. Such a great debate and so much to take from both of these speakers. A big topic that was well captured!
@@theodoreritola7641 OSAS is a modern doctrine created by those who don't understand that God desires obedience from His people & not just expressions of belief uttered through peoples mouth yet their heart or souls are far away from Him.
OK tell me this then IIIIIFFFF you dont believe OSAS you HAVE TO BELIEVE Jesus Christ will ,,,UN.... REDEEM HIS OWN AFTER HAS REDEEMED THEM AND THAT HE WILL ABORT THEM OSAS IS THE GOSPEL OR A CHTISTIAN CAN BECOME ,UN, BORN AGAIN JOHN CH 3 VS 16 ,DO YOU BELIEVE JESUS CHRIST ?
True Christians will endure to the end because Jesus intercedes for them. This is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. What an amazing authority of the greatness of Jesus.
Amen. Jesus prays not for the world but for those the Father has given Him (john 17:9) ( not only Jesus but the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us in our weakness, when we dont know what we ought to pray for) and willed that He not lose them but raise them up on the last day. (John 6:39) He prays that our faith fails not, much like He did for Peter. (Luke 22:32) Those whom The Father has given Christ from out of the world.(john 6:37) We are promised, guaranteed and sealed unto the day of redemption to everlasting life by the same power that raised Christ from the dead. (Rom.8:11) The effectual fervent prayer of Jesus the righteous avails much. (James 5:16) Therefore He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.(Heb.7:25) Amen.
This is the part where protestants brothers get it wrong. Jesus says he will not lose any that the father has given me. BUT that does not mean the cant leave on their own. That's why people fall away, no one took them from Jesus they left on their own. That's the difference.
You are so correct that True Christians will.endure to the end, btw just a quick question how would you determine a true from false Christian? I suppose we have to determine it's creation or origin. So the word Catholic were officially named around 300 AD. And they were the one who compiled the books in the Bible. The early fathers of the church translated it to different languages. I suppose they continue this work to spread the word of God. So they continued the mission passed on by the apostles. May I ask when was your church founded, I mean literally when was your church founded, I suppose you have Anniversary right? So is it possible that the early fathers where fake and after a very very long time somebody suddenly realizes the Truth. And uses even the most blasphemic reasoning, that God revealed the truth to them and so the new meaning of the words in the Bible can now be interpreted by anyone who claims it. Who do you think would know more accurately the history of your country, the latest historian or the people who lived and wrote stories during the time your country where discovered. Do you also believe that all details during that era were all written by the historian at that time. I guess not. So we have to consider the culture and tradition that were passed on into different generation. If a certain period in your country's history, you were colonized for a very very long time by foreign intruders and eventually claimed later that they are the true citizen of that country, would you believe them. Then I gues what we need to do for us to know the truth is to check on the facts. God bless us all.
@@elreyhats You imply that without scriptural proof. That would be like Jesus saying. “I’ll hold to you unless you want to leave.” What breaks the seal of the Holy Spirit? Man’s free will? You give too much authority to a sinner.
@Ed Mendez it is not his personal interpretation. that is called eisegesis. What James White is doing is called "exegesis" which is basically understanding the text in its original intended meaning. The original context. This involves investigating the historical and cultural backgrounds of the author, text, and original audience. Other analyses include classification of the type of literary genres presented in the text and analysis of grammatical and syntactical features in the text itself. What you're describing is "literal interpretation" which basically is understanding the text in plain language. This process involves trusting the Biblical tradition and bible translators. This leads to a number problems since the translators are not 100% reliable. The English or Latin translation is significantly different from the original language used by the writers when they write the text (Hebrew and Ancient Greek). Not saying that we are required to learn Hebrew or Greek. But in crucial theological subject such as the gospel or salvation, it is necessary to dig deeper to get an accurate understanding of the text.
@@guiseppethegentman you are just allergic to giving people a fair shake aren't you. No points to make so you just attack the straw man you grew up with. Not here to argue because arguing via comments is dreadful, but show some fucking decorum man. No one has made more Catholics than people like you who bring nothing but toxicity to the table.
Agree. I am not a cathol8c but he is slaying the arguments of the ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED crowd. I have a new respect for catholics because of this view. (Still don't trust the vatican)
God bless you brother...actually calvinism helped me to see the bible as a whole and displayed everything in it to me after so many years in the salvation by works believe vs. Being saved by works which sounds logical as a human but when you go through the bible you find a lot of gray areas if you look at it through the salvation by works lenses. Bless you again brother.
Like many of you, I found this debate to be both fascinating and very thought provoking. As a former conservative evangelical, I was surprised to find Mr. Horn's argument so logical, well ordered and with a solid Biblical foundation. I can see from many comments that many of you felt the same...Which leaves some of you with something of a conundrum. How can the man who we know also holds to Mary as co-redeemer with Christ, Purgatory, and Transubstantiation among other doctrines, have a seemingly correct view on this topic? And if so, how does that impact the universally acknowledged "By Grace Alone, By Faith Alone" plan of salvation? While the essence of what Dr. White proposes is that we are all robots, some determined to glory without any input or participation in any way, shape or form. For those who may be interested, there is a third alternative which presents the gospel in a way that you probably have not heard before. If you might consider investing the time, you may see a gospel which is harmonious with both the Bible and itself. One which does not pit scripture against scripture nor does it have to force fit the natural understanding of passages so that they might comply with a theological model. Here is a forty second review of the TH-cam Channel which lays out this gospel step-by-step. It was unsolicited. I just happened to stumble upon it. Thank you. Grace and Peace to you. th-cam.com/video/0l2pIwbmAnEH/w-d-xo.htmlere is the link to the TH-cam Channel: th-cam.com/channels/db7ghP3lHTnpsuXUlFDBMw.htmlplaylistsIf you prefer podcasts, links to various podcasts are in the about section of each video.
@@atruechristianforlife7787 can I ask some questions of yourself? Starting with this: Why is there still a Cleopatra's needle at the front of the Vatican?
James White basically said in his closing argument that because Trent Horn is a Catholic that all his arguments from scripture are invalid even if they made sense. Not cool.
He's arguing against Rome's position/ideas of synergism, continued penances & the dogma of purgatory relative to one's sin & salvation. All of which is not in the Bible.
To me, this debate is really about free will. 1). Did God draw me and give me faith to choose him and then after choosing him only allow me to choose what He wants? And then knowing that I really had no choice because He chose me. OR 2). Did God draw me and give me faith to chose Him and then let me choose how to live my life as I choose, now knowing the truth of his Grace? And daily desiring to CHOOSE to follow Him because I am thankful for the gift of grace He has given me. And knowing that that Grace is so much sweeter because He loves me enough to let me throw it away if I choose. Knowing that my choosing does not diminish His Grace in ANY way. One way sounds like a programmed response and one sounds like a relationship!
Yes, ive also heard from the once saved always saved camp that even our good works are fore ordained by God and He does the work in us. Our good works are actually His doing per many bible verses but they at the same time deny calvinism and James White
Impressed with Mr horn.....and I am persuaded by his arguments. Much to my surprise! I am not Calvin is nor catholic, but James white usually annihilates his opponents, and did not here. I am surprised I would ever agree with catholic on theology. I love these debates if you will talk to me that open mind you can really learn things whether they change your view or not
Mr. Horn state that Eternal Security is not part of Apostolic teaching. Really? Is Mary, Praying to Mary, Mary entering heaven in Bodily form, Mary’s is sinless, Mary never had children, sex etc, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, Priest,...........on and on, Gas lighting! He is the Apostate that he refers to, trampling on the Son of God. And yes, we all fall away every day! Thant does not mean you have lost your salvation. God standard for Heaven is perfection. Mr Horn like the rest of the work is far from perfect, thus he cannot save himself.. He needs a perfect sacrifice and savior.
@@CENTURY21JEANNINE you must be refering to another "Mr. Horn" the one in the video never claimed such nonesense that he was perfect, or that he would save himself. Hope this help
@@CENTURY21JEANNINE Everything you listed is Apostolic. Do you actually read the whole bible? Or just a few verses? For example- Priest- notice the word presbyter.... Titus 1:5, for this cause I left thee in Crete, ordain Presbyters in every city. Acts 14:22-23, Ordained Priests in every church, and prayed with fasting they commended them to the Lord. Acts 20:28, Bishops watch over the church. Mary, yes she is sinless and never had other children. LK 1:28, Hail Full of Grace Note: the Greek word used is “Kecharitomene” = Perfectly , completely endowed with Grace. NOBODY in the bible is described in this manner. Bodily form in heaven? well Enoch and Elijhah are in bodily form in heaven, Why not Our Lords Mother? Gen 5:24, Heb 11:5, 2Kings 2:1-13, Enoch & Elijah were assumed into heaven Matt 27:52-53, Saints rose and were seen walking in the city, where did they go? Assumed into heaven. I can go on and on also showing purgatory and the Real Presence of our Lord in his Body and Blood.
James White's approach seems to be 1) for verses which seem to support faith alone salvation, lean on the verse itself (John 6:44), 2) for any other problematic passages, assume the truth of "the Gospel" in Scripture, and then use the weight of that to assert it's different meaning. He rarely interacts with the problematic passages directly.
Eternal security! Jesus payed the price for (ALL MY SIN) at the moment of my “salvation” 🥰 there is no sin left for me to commit that can cause me to lose it. There is one unforgivable sin and that’s blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and somebody who has received salvation cannot commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. So yes once saved always saved praise God my salvation is not in my own hands because if it were I would surely lose it The very same way I earned the wages of death. Romans 5:12 Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ 12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned- Eternal life was once in the hands of man remember Adam and eve? Even in their perfected state because they were not born spiritually dead, inheriting original sin as we do, they still sinned and fell. To believe that God I’d go through everything that he has for humanity in sending his son his only son to die for us horribly on the cross to then put that salvation that his son earned back into the same hands of his creation that lost in the first place would be a mistake that God cannot make as he makes no mistakes. Eternal security😉 Ephesians 4:30 ► And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Who redeems us? 🤔 yes Christ Jesus, so the seal on our salvation can only be opened and redeemed by Christ. We cannot open the seal of our salvation as to lose it. That’s the point of the verse saying “ sealed,’ why bother sealing it if some sin we commit can just open and undo it ? John 6:37 ► All those the Father gives me (will come to me) and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. (Will come to me) , seems pretty sure doesn’t he. 😊. The verse doesn’t say all that the father gives me will come to me unless they somehow mess up and commit some sin that causes them to lose their salvation. ☺️🙏🏼 and praise God for that. One more ..🤓 Jude 24 King James Version 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you (faultless )before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, The scripture says we have peace with God through Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, we have peace with God 5 Therefore, since we have been made righteous through his faithfulness,[a] we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 We have access by faith into this grace in which we stand through him, and we boast in the hope of God’s glory. How can we have peace with God if we can commit some sin that could cause the loss of salvation. The scriptures says God knows the beginning from the end. So he knows all the sin I will ever commit in my life, yet the Bible says I have peace with God by faith in Christ because of the imputed righteousness of Christ at the moment of my salvation. So knowing that God forgave all my sin past present and future at salvation I have peace with the God that can see all the sin I will still commit after salvation, yet says I have peace with him anyway because of the faith he gave me in Christ Jesus our Lord. 🙌 2 Timothy 2:13 if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself. Himself🤔 yes because the Holy Spirit of God is in us remember. And will never leave us. We may grieve him or quench him to the point he will not guide us but as scripture says, all that the father gives me will come to me, and I will NEVER drive him away. Now if you have some scripture that seems to teach otherwise, please send it friend and I will show you how it doesn’t.😊. God bless🙏🏼🕊
@@TimKollat ◄ Matthew 28:19 ► Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, the Trinity “God head” in scripture. Scripture is the reason why Christians believe God is Triune. The doctrine of the Trinity is the best interpretation of the Bible. Just as the Quran does not systematically expound upon the doctrine of Tawhid, the Bible does not expound upon the doctrine of the Trinity in any one place. However, there are five elements found repeatedly throughout the Bible’s text that are best interpreted through the lens of the Trinity: 1. There is only one God (e.g., Rom. 3:30) 2. The Father is God (e.g., John 6:27) 3. Jesus is God (e.g., John 20:28; Rom. 9:5; 2 Peter 1:1) 4. The Holy Spirit is God (e.g., Acts 5:3-5) 5. These Three are distinct persons (e.g., John 14:16-17) So if there are Three distinct persons that are God, but there is only one God, we are naturally led to the doctrine of the Trinity: one God who subsists in three persons. A verse that indicates the unity of these three distinct persons is Matthew 28:19, which says, “Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” All three persons in this verse share one name, because they are one being.
Wow, I have watched James White debate for 20 years,,, this debate is one of those times he is really on the ropes.... He is doubting his position...look at his physical mannerisms... God Bless Trent Horn.
Choose you this day who you may serve Joshua 24:15. "choose" maybe Joshua was lying. Hebrews7:12. For when the priesthood is changed, there also has to be a change in the law. No, not blind at all.
Vincent Sheridan they both don’t know the true God ( once saved always saved ) God Gave his only begotten son to the world so we , ( sinners) will call upon the lord Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior John 3:16
41:00 he tries to insult Dr. James by the statement "Anyone would read it here." That is a dishonest statement to make he should have apologized for that insulting Mr. White like that. I agree with Mr. White completely no works can justify salvation to Christ.
James White is a prime example of a Calvinist who has to abandon the plain sense meaning of a word or sentence in favor of a convoluted interpretation that is driven solely by his adherence to Calvinist doctrine and not by adherence to the text.
Let us hear the "plain meaning" of the word. Jehovah s witnesses love to quote the plain meaning too, so I guess Jesus must be a created being because he went to "my father and your father my God and your God". Plain meaning lovers often end up in sects like Heavens gate without the suicide part.
Understanding the “plain meaning” of the text can be in and of itself dangerous. For example. In Colossians 1:15 Jesus is called the firstborn of all creation. Are we to simply interpret this plainly as the words are stated? Absolutely not. The word firstborn is a Jewish idiom and we must understand how was such a word to be understood? Firstborn = prōtotokos (πρωτοτόκος) If we look at the Greek Septuagint, we will find this word used 130+ times, sometimes indicating the birth of a first child, but is this what Paul is saying? Exodus 4:22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, "Israel is My son, My firstborn. Now obviously, Israel is not the first nation God created, but instead is the nation that God chose to have a special relationship with. We also see, Jeremiah 31:9 ...for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn. Such a passage speaks of Israel's relationship to God and Ephraim's special status in God's sight. But the verse that really expresses what Paul may be referring to is, Psalm 89:27 I also shall make him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth. This is a Messianic verse that is talking about the Messiah to come (verse 20). The Psalm seems to indicate a place of preeminence and high status rather than birth or origin. Romans 8:29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; Here, the Lord's superiority and sovereignty over "the brethren" is acknowledged as well as His leadership over their salvation. Hebrews 1:6 NASB [6] And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "And LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM." Firstborn in the passage above is indicating a title of position, and not birth or origin. Especially since angels worship Him. Colossians 1:18 "...firstborn from the dead..." Revelation 1:5 "...Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth..." Obviously Jesus is not the first person in all of history to have died. So it is clear as of now that firstborn (prōtotokos) indicates a position of priority and not creation or origin.
@@RGTomoenage11 Roman Catholics might be the most notorious examples of ignoring scripture. Those who have opened their eyes are flocking straight out of it by the droves every year. Please be in the next one.
Kenlo i want to see how brave you are to answer IF to you does Jesus Christ EVER ,,,un,,, redeem his OWN AFTER HE HAS redeemed them ? Kenlo can a born again Christian ,,,EVER,,, BE COME ,,,,UN,,, BORN AGAIN ?Does God put his own children on PROBATION If you say. .yes... to these qs to u JESUS CHRIST DOES NOT KEEP HIS WORD
My favourite point made was that no Church Father backs the Calvinist view and no serious theologian until the 1500's. If a disciple of one of the original 12 never heard of this central element of theology then I don't think it was Jesus' message.
By 10.15 They become bogged down Terminolgy and splitting words and stuff . Just talk REAL Trent starts getting bogged down in splitting hairs . That’s because that’s what white wants .
He (Mr. Horn) kept referring and pointing to Calvin in aims of discrediting Dr. White, which is an instant Catholic reaction to losing a debate with scripture as the key source.
@@WalkingRoscoe who gave you the scriptures. ??? Who picked the books we have as scripture ?? The Holy Ghost and Catholic Church . It says in revelation some people lost there first love . You can lose your first love and never want to have anything to do with Christ ... they tasted salvation and then walked away . This is horrible to happen to anybody .
Mr. Horn made absolutely no sense when he was trying to explain "the gift of perseverance". What's the difference between what he said and what James White was saying? He lost right there....
@@graylad He lost nothing. The point that he made that he agreed with White only that God knows who will persevere to the end. We do not know who will persevere to the end. However, there are many people who are in a state of grace, in God's sight, who will disobey, (not persevere) and get cut off from God's grace, and won't persevere to the end. The multitude of Scriptures that he pointed to, show that there are people who are in God's grace, who will be cut off from God's grace because they don't persevere. Rom 11:22, Gal. 5:4, Heb. 10:29, Luke 8:13. Huge difference and Mr. Horn explained himself fine.
Matt all he did was add an extra unnecessary step in reformed theology regarding the P in TULIP. Cooperation of man’s will as necessary for salvation makes God not almighty or sovereign.
"If you remain in that grace" There is the very big IF, Which means that it is not absolute. So, salvation could be lost. It has no connection to the belief that Jesus fails in his salvation process.
Amen! Also check out Hebrews 10:26-31 powerful passage confirming the once save always saved is a lie from statin. It's all over scripture warning after warning to endure and remain in Christ. This does not mean a works based salvation we are saved through faith by God's grace. There is a condition though and a test. God does offer way more grace and mercy than we deserve for when we stumble. "Take care brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, "IF" indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end" Hebrews 3:12-14 When Joshua said "Choose this day whom you will serve" I believe it's an active command. Not a one time prayer you said 15 years ago. We are moral agents for Christ and there is freedom in Christ to choose him over sin every day. Stay awake brothers and sister and pray that you will be full of oil when Christ returns!
But, the Bible clearly says, “our works are of filthy rags” the literal meaning is menstrual rags. “Even our thoughts condemns us” so how does what you’ve taken out of context work? I live from moment to moment saved and un saved? Till I repent every second of the day for a thought I might have? Based on your way of interpreting scriptures, I’m saved and un saved on a daily bases. I could see myself saying, did I repent for that? Did I repent for this last 5 minutes? Talk about a nightmare of un certainty. If your salvation has to do with your great works: How much praise do you give God and how much praise goes to you? After all, you’re saying it’s a 2 way street.
@@jeffmays7192 All I can say jeff is that we commit sin continuously every day of our live and that is why. Of you are sure that you do not commit any single sin, and remain pure then you are saved, So why worry? More so repentance should not only be in the mind. Do it by confessing, if indeed you really repent.
Horn for the win! I’m a former Protestant, now Catholic. This debate, along with many other debates and various Catholic apologists helped my journey. The final 10mins from both White and Horn, clearly demonstrate which view is more biblical 🙏
So, you bend with every wind of doctrine? There is only ONE faith delivered to the saints and it ain't Catholic. Catholics' hopes lies with Mary and the Papacy. Pray that you go back to your first love.
@KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC I love the upbringing I had in the Protestant tradition. It taught me to love Christ and to love Scripture. But going deeper into my faith (Church Fathers, the consequences of Luther and Calvin's theology, etc.) lead me to the Church Jesus Christ founded, the Catholic Church.
@@barryclevenger7456 No, I was just willing to be lead by the Spirit in my look into the Church Fathers and the history of the faith. I went in believing the Catholic Church was wrong, hoping to find various Protestant doctrines. I came out of it realising the Catholic Church is the true Church that Christ founded. Sola Scriptura (Bible Alone), Sola Fide (Faith Alone), Eucharist and Baptism are merely symbolic - among others, are completely unknown doctrines prior to the 16th century.
Mr. Horn has given me much to think about. I hope the rest of his videos are insightful as his participation in this debate. I look forward to learning more about his faith.
@@honestabe4161 That's wonderful to hear and as He also said, many christians hold the same view which means being a Catholic isn't necessary... If that's what you meant about learning more about his faith?
@@Captain_Of_A_Starship I was reading a document put out by the catholics that I found very interesting. It was Lumen Gentum and found this led to more questions. “ Lumen Gentium and the CCC teach that those cannot be saved who know that Jesus made the Church necessary for salvation, yet refuse to enter the Church or remain in it, because by their actions they would be rejecting Christ himself and his salvific plan for us. And yet for those who are invincibly ignorant of those truths, the Church holds out that they can be saved, as Jesus desires that all be saved (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9). Because we cannot presume upon any person’s invincible ignorance, we must advance the Church’s divinely given Great Commission (Matt. 28:18-20) with diligence and charity (LG 16; CCC 848).” More investigation is needed.
They were both respectful and both presented their views well, but that doesn't mean they both "did well." James did well in refuting the heresy of Roman Catholicism.
The Elect were chosen before the foundations therefore can not fall away, Gods grace is sufficient to get them conformed to the image of His Son. Everyone Predestined shall be brought to Glorification solely on Gods sovereign Grace
@@myraride9563 You've been blinded. If you are OF God, you will WANT the gospel, spread it to everyone you can, repenting of your sins, as you know Christ is your own means in salvation. Non-Calvinists do NOT know Calvinism, creating their own strawmen arguments to debunk and say "gotchya."
@@FabledNarrative you proved the persons point. If you’re always saved then there’s no need for repentance as long as you follow Christ. To be honest, demons are already in that category, they believe Jesus is the son of God just as much as you do. So what is it that distinguishes Protestants from the demons?
@@phoenixrich149 No true believer will take the mark of the beast, and I'm not somebody who claims that works are the evidence of salvation. The angel of the Lord will command everyone to not take the mark as in Revelation 14:6-9 and the sheep will hear His voice and follow Him as in John 10:27. Further, where else in scripture is the head and the hand referenced? In Deuteronomy 6:8, so the commandments in Deut 6:1-5 already are on the head and hand and cannot be replaced because the angel of the Lord will tell every person on earth to avoid it.
Salvation is of God, because He is the Creator. BUT, God wants a free, loving relationship with His creation, not as robots. St John the Baptist said God could create rocks to worship Him. So God makes covenants with His creation. His creation concurs with the agreement. This is how grace works. God freely gives grace, and His creation freely accepts the grace so that God's Will continues by His grace. As Paul says, "The things I do is not I but God in me.". An ambassador agrees to represent and do the work for a head of state, not himself. As Jesus told St John the Baptist, "It is good to Fulfill all righteousness.".
@@headsofhiphop - John 17:12 “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”
Like many of you, I found this debate to be both fascinating and very thought provoking. As a former conservative evangelical, I was surprised to find Mr. Horn's argument so logical, well ordered and with a solid Biblical foundation. I can see from many comments that many of you felt the same...Which leaves some of you with something of a conundrum. How can the man who we know also holds to Mary as co-redeemer with Christ, Purgatory, and Transubstantiation among other doctrines, have a seemingly correct view on this topic? And if so, how does that impact the universally acknowledged "By Grace Alone, By Faith Alone" plan of salvation? While the essence of what Dr. White proposes is that we are all robots, some determined to glory without any input or participation in any way, shape or form. For those who may be interested, there is a third alternative which presents the gospel in a way that you probably have not heard before. If you might consider investing the time, you may see a gospel which is harmonious with both the Bible and itself. One which does not pit scripture against scripture nor does it have to force fit the natural understanding of passages so that they might comply with a theological model. Here is a forty second review of the TH-cam Channel which lays out this gospel step-by-step. It was unsolicited. I just happened to stumble upon it. Thank you. Grace and Peace to you. th-cam.com/video/0l2pIwbmAnEH/w-d-xo.htmlere is the link to the TH-cam Channel: th-cam.com/channels/db7ghP3lHTnpsuXUlFDBMw.htmlplaylistsIf you prefer podcasts, links to various podcasts are in the about section of each video.
Ephesians 4:30 uses the prep. "εἰς", which here is much better translated as "for" or "against". It sets a goal not a duration of time. By the Holy Spirit we are sealed "for" or "against" the day of redemption. So we should not grieve the Spirit lest He leave us and we regress to our old self. Read also the earlier verses of the same passage. Stop distorting the Scriptures through your heretical misreadings and ignorance.
@@jamessheffield4173 This verse actually shows that there is no predetermination of the saved or the damned. If among these "many" there were ones who were never ever supposed to be chosen in the first place, why were they called in the first place? So these "few chosen" are those who respond. God foreknows all and everything as He lives beyond time-space. "Those whom He foreknew, these He also foreordained..." as St. Paul teaches in his Epistle to the Romans.
Trent exposed White on that even though Dr White claims that he is a Sola Scriptura, James added words to Jesus's words, in order to solidify his arguments. Dr White seemed to be answering questions Dr Trent didn't ask, but questions he perceived Dr Trent asked.
Summary for those inquiring about this subject: 1) You are born again and scared if you live in sin (meaning you live however you want indulging in your sin-not repentant) that you were never “among them” or “really a Christian” because you believe in once saved always saved doctrine. Or, 2) you’re born again and believe you can loose your salvation; thus, you are scared as to when you are going to loose your salvation because you are perusing living in sin and disregard God’s word. Recommendation: See how holy you can live and still operate on earth instead of how much sin you can get away with and still get into heaven. You are saved by grace, not of yourself, but the Bible clearly warns us not to live in sin as it is very destructive. And if you are born again and hate holy living, how or why would God take you into heaven? You will hate it. And if you do love sin and don’t want to stop even though you are born again, ask God to change your heart and to give you a desire for righteousness living -he will!
@@trafficjon400 The 1st and 2nd point is my subjective perspective - opinion, not doctrine, so it cannot be false because it’s my opinion. And my 3rd paragraph is clear and in line with your statement that God is powerful and we are only saved by grace. I think you’re misunderstanding the point here.
I am a catholic convert and I really tried to be as objective as possible, which can be hard at time. I thought both debaters brought up good arguments, but I simply could not follow the logic of Dr. James White. For me, It simply came down to this: (Example) If someone believed in Jesus, and followed him for a time, but then fell away after suffering, vice, or was simply led astray and never returned to Jesus, How would he have salvation? Is it not a copout to say "well, he was never really saved." In my own life, I have fallen away from the faith many times and the mercy of God continues to call me back, but its my decision to heed that call. Its my decision to persevere (with the grace of god). If I refused, how could my salvation be guaranteed? If Dr. White answered this, then I did not understand, at all. To me, it was very easy to understand the arguments presented by Trent Horn, while following the logic of Dr. White was difficult.. I felt like I would need to be a scholar to do so. Overall, a great debate, but this has simply reinforced my belief in catholic teachings on salvation. I admit, I am most likely biased, as I love my catholic faith. So these are just my thoughts. I was led to this after a long conversation with a Baptist friend, who has had a huge impact on my life and I believe that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of our theological differences. Thanks for reading and God Bless.
Define “fall away” are you outwardly rejecting the deity & justify work of Christ on the cross? Or just struggling with sins of the flesh? You say its your decision to persevere but what allowed that decision? Why do you decide to persevere & agree with God to follow after righteousness while the unsaved disagree? Were you always in agreement? Obviously not, so what changed? Gods Grace IS the catalyst in which you persevere. And so, God is the initiator & finisher of said Faith.
If you only know God in an intellectual way and have no real relationship and are not born again no heart change then yes you can fall away. But if one truly knows Jesus Christ He will never stray and if he gets lost the good shepherd will go after that one sheep. This is the difference. A true born again believer or a believer only in thought no heart change.
I'm closer to the Catholic teaching as well, but the way I understood James White is that you're not so much assured of your salvation, but rather, if you're saved i.e. "chosen by God" then you won't fall away, so it's God choosing to save you despite yourself. I think that kind of reasoning has a myriad of negative connotations in ourselves and society and it leads to be proudful and to boast by saying "My life is good and I follow God's teachings so I'm one of the chosen, and that other person who is poor or has an addiction has been abandoned by God, he's not chosen", which was one of the immediate effects of the spread of Calvinist ideas. But that's what he thinks, it's not "I'm saved so I can go commit the worst sin ever".
51:30 1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has seized you, except what is common to man. *And God is faithful* , who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but will also provide with the temptation the escape, to be able to endure it.
These debates between our Christian brothers shouldn't be about who won or who lost, but should be a reason to study our Bible more deeply. Both James White and Trent Horn are absolutely great debators, and have debated Non - Christians and continue to bring them to Christ. Let's not forget to :- Love the Lord our God and to Love your neighbours as ourselves.
@@Over-for-now Right thanks and it more fully explains why the Creater ignores so many today. though we have to move mountains would be impossible for us.
@@Over-for-now I suggest you watch the debate between dr. White with dr. Brown against two lgbt pastors. After that, will you think the same that it is about the finished work of Christ... Those two lgbt pastors are professing Christ as their Lord and Savior. Thus claimed the already saved. Someone said to me they (the lgbt pastors) haven't received the salvation in the first place because of their openly practizing what is forbidden... And cannot claim to be christians... I suggest you meditate on Jesus' words: not everyone who call me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of God, but those who do the Will of my Father...
Thought of the Day: Losing Salvation Some people push a message of “you better watch out you could lose your salvation”. Let’s examine that. What would cause you to lose salvation? Sin would. So, if Jesus died for your sins, did it work? Of course it did! That answer alone should end the discussion. Jesus didn’t just die for small sins or ones we rarely commit. He died for the big ones and the ones we struggle with too. There’s not a single verse that actually ever mentions losing salvation. No. It’s just distorted theology. And you can bet it’s almost always from legalist angry Christians and talk more about fear of them they do the love of Christ. Now, let’s talk about the word “eternal”. God’s word tells us “whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall not perish, but will have eternal life”. Eternal means without an end. That word is extremely important when we’re thinking about losing salvation. In order to lose salvation it could not be eternal, otherwise it would in fact have an end At the very best it would be temporary or contingent salvation. Emerite come from we call that works based salvation. And let’s take that word eternal a little deeper. Eternal doesn’t just mean without an end. It also means without a beginning. But wait, you had a birthday so you must have a beginning. And that’s when we discover that eternal salvation is not your life prolonged. But rather it’s Jesus‘ life given to you. It’s his eternal life you receive. And now it makes sense! Anybody teaching a theology of losing salvation is teaching law based salvation. And it’s a lie from the evil one. On one side of their mouth they are saying we are saved by faith, on the other side of their mouth they are saying we maintain it by works. That’s double-talk. If salvation were maintained by works then it wouldn’t be a gift. It wouldn’t be by faith. And that kind of teaching is no different than all the fake religions of the world. Fake religions that require you to earn salvation through human effort. How to teach losing salvation is reject the grace of God. And if we could keep our salvation through human effort then why in the world did Jesus go to the cross? [Galatians 2:21] “ I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness cane through the law then Christ died needlessly”.
Maybe im a simpleton but Jesus says, repent, obey my commandments, remain in me, believe....and then raises up from the dead and gives the holy spirit which makes me ABLE to BELEIVE, repent, obey his commandments, and remain in him..so I can take credit for my salvation and assurance of faith How????? ....im not calvinist but falling from grace is falling into works which is NOT REIMAINING IN Christ...thats a false faith and assurance, that is a works and law based "faith"...sadly this is taught everywhere and its so easy to teach law and works without realizing it because we do not consider THE WHOLE GOSPEL which is one of Grace, a mystery.
◄ Matthew 23:37 ► "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. To me, from this verse. God wants all to be saved and he longs for us to be saved, yet, people are unwilling in their “free will” Just as people can be saved and lose their salvation by their free will to not do or obey God’s will.
Like many of you, I found this debate to be both fascinating and very thought provoking. As a former conservative evangelical, I was surprised to find Mr. Horn's argument so logical, well ordered and with a solid Biblical foundation. I can see from many comments that many of you felt the same...Which leaves some of you with something of a conundrum. How can the man who we know also holds to Mary as co-redeemer with Christ, Purgatory, and Transubstantiation among other doctrines, have a seemingly correct view on this topic? And if so, how does that impact the universally acknowledged "By Grace Alone, By Faith Alone" plan of salvation? While the essence of what Dr. White proposes is that we are all robots, some determined to glory without any input or participation in any way, shape or form. For those who may be interested, there is a third alternative which presents the gospel in a way that you probably have not heard before. If you might consider investing the time, you may see a gospel which is harmonious with both the Bible and itself. One which does not pit scripture against scripture nor does it have to force fit the natural understanding of passages so that they might comply with a theological model. Here is a forty second review of the TH-cam Channel which lays out this gospel step-by-step. It was unsolicited. I just happened to stumble upon it. Thank you. Grace and Peace to you. th-cam.com/video/0l2pIwbmAnEH/w-d-xo.htmlere is the link to the TH-cam Channel: th-cam.com/channels/db7ghP3lHTnpsuXUlFDBMw.htmlplaylistsIf you prefer podcasts, links to various podcasts are in the about section of each video.
As a child I believed that the Bible was the word of God and that Jesus was my savior .In 1988 I was drinking a fifth of alcohol a day . I knew that there was more to life than I realized but I didn't know what it was . I had a wonderful girlfriend , we raced motorcycles , we went to bluegrass festivals and did whatever we wanted to do . I realized that I had everything the world said was happiness but I felt something important was missing and I didn't know what it was. I tried scientology , all kinds of yoga, martial arts and various other disciplines but nothing satisfied me . One Sunday morning I came home drunk in a taxicab and waiting outside of my house was a man who was giving my roommate a ride to church. I had gone to alcoholics anonymous for six months and they helped me a lot but I had gone back to drinking .He invited me to sit in his car and talk. He asked me if I wanted a bible study. I said I would love to have a bible study . He came on Monday nights the only night of the week that I didn't drink. It was a 12 week bible study that went from Genesis to Revelation. He showed me in the book of Acts ( Acts 2:38 ) where it said repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost . I said I'd never seen that in the bible and I wanted to get baptized in Jesus' name and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. I got baptized in Jesus' name and prayed for two months to get the Holy Ghost. The night that I got the Holy Ghost I was praying and I started to talk in tongues , I felt wonderful and GOD delivered me from the spirit of alcohol . I have never wanted to drink since then and I praise GOD for that. . The man who gave me the twelve week bible study taught me a ' GODHEAD ' bible study twice but i didn't understand the oneness of God or the trinity . I was reading the bible one day and read Ephesians 4 : 5-6 that i had previously highlighted in my bible . God gave me the revelation of oneness . ' ONE LORD , ONE FAITH , ONE BAPTISM , ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL , WHO IS ABOVE ALL , AND THROUGH ALL ,AND IN YOU ALL ! JOHN 3:16 IS JUST ONE VERSE : YOU NEED TO READ ALL OF CHAPTER THREE TO UNDERSTAND JESUS' PLAN OF SALVATION ! I was a believer from childhood but i wasn't saved .THANK YOU FOR READING THIS !
Acts 10 44-48 what convinced the Jewish believers, which didn't believe that gentiles could receive the Holy Spirit, that the gentile house of Cornelius had received the Holy Spirit? What is the initial evidence that a person has recieved the Holy Spirit?
Trent Horn demolished Dr. White... But to answer John 6:37 and John 6:44, I'm actually really surprised that Trent Horn never mentioned John 6:45... John 6:37 says nothing about the individual being unable to leave Jesus, but only that *_Jesus_** will not cast them out* . We agree. Like sheep we may come to Jesus, but the sheep also go astray of their own accord and cast themselves out, and the Shepherd goes out to find them (Matthew 18:12-14). But both John 6:37 and especially John 6:44 are resolved with context--like when Trent destroyed James' interpretation of Romans 4:8 when we learned from Psalm 32 that he was not imputed sin because he confessed his sins. In John 6:45, Jesus clarified that yes, faith is a supernatural gift from God and from God alone (Catholics believe this, and Trent mentioned so). Belief in Jesus requires instruction from the Father, _but_ it is *the one that has heard **_and learned_* from the Father that comes to Jesus. It is possible for the Father to draw us, but still that we *do not **_listen and learn_* . Learning requires the consent of the will. A person that does not desire to learn will not learn. You can bring a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. John 6:45 (ASV) 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, *and hath learned* , cometh unto me. John 6:45 (NIV) 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father *and learned* from him comes to me.
@@s.kucerka that's not what that chapter means: wages of sin is Death under Moses law, but by Grace who is Jesus you are gifted eternal life. As Jesus has dominion over All. This be why Jesus is the only way.
Scripture translates scripture Like diamond cuts diamond If you can fall from Grace Ie. lose your salvation Then your immediately calling God a liar Because he said he will lose none Not only are you in the fathers hands but also in the Sons Your theology has to come through a harmonization of ALL scripture If your view on a scripture doesn’t fit the rest of the scripture Your view is unbiblical
Mark Luna That verse doesn’t say you can’t lose your salvation. All the scripture says is God will lose none that trust in him. Now when you say I’m a liar because I said you can fall from grace, see what scripture says; “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” Galatians 5:4 KJV
Jesus Christ Saves Just because it doesn’t say it Doesn’t meant it doesn’t mean It’s called the rule of exclusivity Just like Jesus himself didn’t say homosexuality is a sin But we know by what he did say about marriage being only between a man and a woman that homosexuality is not God honoring I wasn’t say you specifically were calling God a liar I was speaking generally Do you know what it meant to be circumcised You were taking a seal to live under the law Which meant you were no longer under grace Because by putting yourself under the law you were required to live according to it to appease God which is what Jews had before Christ’s atonement After the fulfillment of the law by christ We who believe are now under grace
I just realized something very powerful: WE DON'T HAVE TO SIN!!! God gives us the Power to do his will. I've been a Christian for many years and only now SEE that sin has no power over me. If we sin it is by choice..whereas before we were what Paul called "slaves" to sin. We arent merely forgiven..RATHER WE HAVE BEEN SET FREE
I am curious what you think about inaction vs action. Obviously if you think a bad thing then you sin, but what about lack of action? As in lack of loving your neighbor and not interacting with other people enough, serving enough, etc. when you have the opportunity?
This debate made me appreciate what a great teacher was Jesus even more. Honestly, I did not understand most of what either side was saying with all the academic jargon and using quotes from other theologians. Jesus on the other hand, spoke in parables that connected with his audience and made his message very clear. Praise God!
I don't think that either debater did a very good job. They both sounded educated, but got lost in translation. I think that Jesus makes an amazing statement in John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." Jesus used present tense and then past tense. Those who believe "does not come into judgment." We will not be judged. Past tense "has passed out of death into life." Doesn't Jesus know that we will sin tomorrow, next week, next month in word, thought or action? In Eph. 1:13 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise." Can one break that seal? In Ga. 5:4 mentions "severed...falling from grace." The Greek word for "severed," is better translated, "nullify," or "done away with." "Falling away," can mean from a previously held position. And the statement is not "falling away from salvation," but "falling from grace." Plus in the context, Paul is presenting a truth that "...every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole law." His point being that a believer who chooses to rely on circumcision acts as if Christ's sacrifice means nothing. John writes, "These things I have written to you who believe in the Name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life" (1 John 5:13). How can we have the "peace that passes understanding," how can we celebrate with great gladness when we're not even sure if we're saved? The comment is made that we have to look at our life morally to see if we qualify for salvation, but shouldn't our trust be in Jesus' perfect sacrifice rather than our works? Where do we read in the Scripture of someone being born again, again, and again? How does one become a family member, then they're not, then they are. Is our body the revolving door for the Holy Spirit, so that when we fall, He leaves, when we come back, He enters, and when we fall, He leaves...is this biblical? If we can never be sure of our salvation, aren't we putting the burden of proof on us and not on Jesus? Ultimately, don't we begin to put more value on our obedience than Jesus' sacrifice? One of the biggest problems with this confusion is the inability to tell the difference between passages on fellowship and rewards against eternal destiny.
I agree with all you said. I have a problem though. I'm in no way a Biblecritic and also i don't believe my assumption to be true. But for me it sounds like the Bible kind of contradicts itself. I know it's just my poor reading of scripture but for me it sounds like a Christian can fall out of salvation and at the time not fal out of salvation.
@@pyramusk3264 the Bible "sounds like it contradicts itself" in the doctrine of the Trinity, as well. As believers, we assume a predisposition of Biblical inerrancy, so if it sounds like a contradiction, the error is within us, rather than God's Word.
People who believes that persevering until the end through your efforts makes you in the end keeps your salvation, will come out boastful in the end in front of God.
If someone added to the book or take away from the book they weren't saved the holy spirit would not add or take away his words thus they are subjected to the plagues and are removed from the book holy spirit will not guide you to make him a liar.
@@jandrew86 Revelation 22 18:19 God shall take away his part in the book of Life and from the holy city. So with basic understanding you were not saved beause if you taken away from the book your going to the lake fire does that make sense you never had the spirit in you.
You can't lose your salvation. Consider this: • Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I 𝙙𝙚𝙘𝙡𝙖𝙧𝙚 𝙩𝙤 𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙢, ‘𝙄 𝙉𝙀𝙑𝙀𝙍 𝙆𝙉𝙀𝙒 𝙔𝙊𝙐; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." Notice He says "𝙄 𝙉𝙀𝙑𝙀𝙍 𝙆𝙉𝙀𝙒 𝙔𝙊𝙐" in this text. What does Jesus say about His sheep who He Saved? • John 10:27-30 "My sheep hear My voice, and I "𝙆𝙉𝙊𝙒" them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will 𝙉𝙀𝙑𝙀𝙍 𝙋𝙀𝙍𝙄𝙎𝙃; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." Jesus claims that He"knows" His sheep and He gives them eternal life and they'll never perish.
I think the word "never" in Matthew 7:23 is synonymous with the word "not at all" not that He meant it that at some point he never used knowing them. Also, even if we grant that, it actually does not prove the Perseverance of the Saints/OSAS since that passage talks about false converts that are never saved, to begin with, because they assume that their good works save them as verse 22 says "many will say unto Me on that day, Lord Lord, Have we not prophesy in thy name in thy name and in thy cast out devils and in thy name done many wonderful works?". The verse specifically addresses false prophets who think they are justified by the works of the Law. So both definitions of the word "never" from that verse, we cannot draw proof that it tells us that we can never forfeit that grace. John 10 talks about sheep that Jesus knows since they are justified by grace through faith as He gives them eternal life and by their continual following to Jesus made them unperishable that is why He said they shall never perish as Jesus promised that by their abiding in Christ there is no condemnation for them. In the same way with this logic, if you cease deliberately eating sugar you will never get diabetes. John 10 promises that Jesus will not allow those who are His to perish who remain in Him, He is promising an everlasting redemption to those who abide in Him telling everyone that His atonement infallibly satisfies God's wrath and the sinner is set free from that condemnation. No MAN can pluck out believers from His hands, it simply means that no man can condemn those who are in Christ Jesus like false prophets that is the promise it tells because the context of John 10 speaks about people who follow Him unfollows those who are not with Christ. John 10:1-5 KJV 10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Have you never given anyone a gift as a result of a favor done for you? Like many of you, I found this debate to be both fascinating and very thought provoking. As a former conservative evangelical, I was surprised to find Mr. Horn's argument so logical, well ordered and with a solid Biblical foundation. I can see from many comments that many of you felt the same...Which leaves some of you with something of a conundrum. How can the man who we know also holds to Mary as co-redeemer with Christ, Purgatory, and Transubstantiation among other doctrines, have a seemingly correct view on this topic? And if so, how does that impact the universally acknowledged "By Grace Alone, By Faith Alone" plan of salvation? While the essence of what Dr. White proposes is that we are all robots, some determined to glory without any input or participation in any way, shape or form. For those who may be interested, there is a third alternative which presents the gospel in a way that you probably have not heard before. If you might consider investing the time, you may see a gospel which is harmonious with both the Bible and itself. One which does not pit scripture against scripture nor does it have to force fit the natural understanding of passages so that they might comply with a theological model. Here is a forty second review of the TH-cam Channel which lays out this gospel step-by-step. It was unsolicited. I just happened to stumble upon it. Thank you. Grace and Peace to you. th-cam.com/video/0l2pIwbmAnEH/w-d-xo.htmlere is the link to the TH-cam Channel: th-cam.com/channels/db7ghP3lHTnpsuXUlFDBMw.htmlplaylistsIf you prefer podcasts, links to various podcasts are in the about section of each video.
I'm so grateful for this. I was having a discussion with someone in my church about this and I thought I was alone because even our pastor said salvation can't be lost ever and all are saved but here Trent understands my perspective. Also, orbits 29:59-30:04! :D
Perhaps you do not understand Deuteronomy 9:5? You are now boasting in your own ability to obtain righteousness which is why God will include you in His kingdom. This is precisely what Trent is telling you - God looking into the future and seeing who it is that will seek Him. Is that what Psalm 53:1-3 says? What does it mean in Romans 3:21 that a righteousness from God is required in order to be saved??? Trent has it wrong in how one gets saved in the first place. Don't fall into the same trap.
@@trafficjon400 You are leading her up the garden path.... If anyone claims that s/he sought out God of their own free will they are contradicting the bible where it clearly states: "There is no one that seeks after God, no not even one!" Or where it states: "Unless the Lord has left us a remnant..." Or where it states: "If you, LORD, kept a record of sins, Lord, who could stand?" IT is GOD who takes the initiative to drag people to Jesus so that they will eventually get to believe. If you claim that their salvation is their own doing then indeed it can be lost because it never was!!!! How can one be born again of one's own accord? That is the question that you and Haili Williams have to answer for yourselves.
@@kevinrtres Right you tell your self that? we can hold faith till dementia sets in being nothing but a veggie at the end for what does a long lasting preacher of God scripture prove to others who want or Gods seeks but becomes a vegetable sounds like an honnest christian gets a slap in the face after all the things God Scripture was done becoming a remant Vegetable. Every christian i watched die has become this from teaching the scripture and warning about sin and then become the living dead beings loving christians of the scriptures. searching scripture truth on you tube or any where else seeing facts and nothing else . Selma alabama my beloved 88 years Stricked Christian mother father and Selma is full of Christians churches every body holding the torture of God only till agony death is the cruelist way to be LOVING CARING. Wiped out by an EF4 TORNADO yesterday and can't reach them . we are spects of dust to God and evil TRASH WE ARE TASH FOR 1000S AND MORE 1000s for all we know God keeps us in no matter how Good we are we are TRASH... AND SEARCH TRUTH AND BECOME ATHEIST IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN SO DON'T TRY SEARCHING FOR IT. I'll stay away from truth otherwise insanity awaits or if your strong enough to bare it till death would it do any good to think we came from nothing and no i don't see how it could..
You are spot on, salvation can be lost if one does not continue to abide in Christ, like John 15:1-6 correctly teach. Might want to check out Abide in the Word yt channel, he has some good teachings, but how can I put this, sometimes he can be... a bit radical maybe? Kerrigan Skelly is also good.
A question for you! We read this two passages first in: Act 27:22-25 22 And yet now I urge you to keep up your courage, for there will be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship. 23 For this very night an angel of the God to whom I belong, whom I also serve, came to me, 24 saying, ‘Do not be afraid, Paul; you must stand before Caesar; and behold, God has graciously granted you all those who are sailing with you.’ 25 Therefore, keep up your courage, men, for I believe God that [n]it will turn out exactly as I have been told. and Act 27:30-32 30 But as the sailors were trying to escape from the ship and had let down the ship’s boat into the sea, on the pretense that they were going to lay out anchors from the bow, 31 Paul said to the centurion and the soldiers, “Unless these men remain on the ship, you yourselves cannot be saved.” 32 Then the soldiers cut away the ropes of the ship’s boat and let it fall away. The question: Paul was told from the Angel, that everyone will be saved and no one will die. (could this propheci from the Angel fail?) Then we read that paul gives a warning in V.31 " “Unless these men remain on the ship, you yourselves cannot be saved.” (why, he knew that no one will die ?) We see exactly here what the warnings are all about in scripture! Example: God gave Jesus a people John 6:37-44 and he will lose non of them(because he came down from heaven to do the will of the Father). Those people are indentified in John 10 as the sheep of the Lord Jesus John 10:29 and Jesus say´s that his shep hear his voice, and they follow him, and he knows them and he gives them eternal life and they will never perish in eternity and no one will pluck them out of his Hands John 10:27-28 So a sheep of the Lord WILL hear His voice and FOLLOW him until the end, because they will never perish as we read. If someone claims to be a christian and we see him following the Lord Jesus, but then he leaves the faith, he was never his sheep, because he 1) did not FOLLOW the Lord (wasn´t a real diciple, because did not stay in his word/teaching John 8:31) and 2) will perish for ever, because he never was his sheep. That´s the point of 1 John 2:19 So we can affirm both, the warnings are real, but we know that no one given by the father to the Son, those are the sheep of the Lord Jesus, will ever perish in eternity.
“Works are of filthy rags” literal meaning of menstrual rags. Like James, if my salvation has anything to do with my intervention and some kind of covenant of works I must do, I’m DOOMED....
@@eternalbyzantium262 agree..Jesus says come to me all that are heavey and laden and I will give you rest..If we are so filthy Jesus wouldnt tell us to come. God is a God of second third forth........chances.
To be so caught up with how others can either gain or fall from grace is a mistake. 1) because "grace" is by definition a gift … not something one can earn, therefore not something one can "fall" from. "Falling from grace" is a contradiction of thought. 2) We are to love others as we have been loved (John 15:12). We are not here to judge each other or charge each other, not here to sentence anyone. We have to focus on ourselves, taking the plank out of your own eye (Matthew 7:5). So it's a waste of time to even study the concept of falling from grace. It's like appraising your sin to see what negative value it has. A measure of iniquity. Thankfully, Jesus took upon himself the iniquity for all of mankind (John 1:29, 1John 3:5, 1Peter 2:24).
*If there's one thing a true Christian must come to practice, value, and cherish, is humility. As a JW I never practiced it because I was taught we had "the truth." Mr. Horn should be humble and come to accept that he is wrong and admit it. @**3:40** He wouldn't even admit that Judas was prophesied (in the OT) to be our Lord's traitor and therefore, Jesus specifically chose him to just carry out what he was going to do anyway! Judas had freewill and it was his choice in coming to betray Jesus. He was not made to betray him by being picked as one of the twelve. Just like Jesus knowing the death that awaited him, he had also already "seen" that he would die on the cross but his killers could have not chosen to do it. God can look down the corridor of time and "see" what we will do but not "cause" us to do it.*
this is so sad when you categorized sin...but the bible said that ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IS SIN...If we based our salvation on the ability of man then theres no chance for us to enter the kingdom.i'd stick to what the Bible said that salvation is based on Christ not by my works,not about laws,traditions.
The person who won this debate is subject to the presuppositions that you have watching it and your own understanding of scripture. Protestants (like me) feel we understand the scriptures mentioned in context and with deeper understanding, so naturally, James White won. However, Catholics that watch bring their own set of presuppositions, so naturally Trent Horn won. I doubt that the debate will change many minds but it is useful to strengthen your own beliefs and be able to defend them. All in all...an excellent debate.
Jason Mahurin that isn't what a debate is for. The aim of debates is to hear the best possible presentation of both sides, in order to work out which side is correct. It may help to write the points given by both sides down and weigh them up. The cross-examinations are useful for this also. And you know what, I do think God uses debates like this to open people's minds and cause them to read further. I hope more Catholic vs Protestant debates come about, because this is so important. We have very old videos with Mitch Pacwa and the like, but I encourage newer ones to help people see how this is still relevant. A lot of my Catholic friends just are not aware of the clear problems with their theology, and they look up to people like Horn if they ever are unsure about Catholic theology. I know that if they were to sit and think through what was said in this debate, it would shake them.
SamOwenI I have no doubt that God can use debates to change hearts and minds. In fact, debates were one of the things that helped me come to Christ, but I watched with an open mind and a curiosity that I now know is from God dealing with me. I would not be surprised if there are those who do come to truth after hearing it presented against their own false theology but that happens not with a debate alone but with the Holy Spirit. I still believe the vast majority will enjoy watching this debate from their own perspectives and claim their own guy as the victor. Our minds do not change easily, especially on matters of faith. Keep reading the comments on the this debate (both parts) and see how many people claim to have changed their mind. Notice those who feel Trent Horn won were already Catholic or Arminian and those feel Dr White won were already reformed Protestants. Still, you're right, God can use it and I didn't mean to sound like it can't be used to bring the knowledge of the truth.
54:10 Whote keeps using the phrase “perfect enough”. What he is trying to propose is that “i can do nothing to the level that Christ did it so it is not important for me to do it at all”. To hold any other position makes his use of the phrase merely an exaggeration meant to trick the last person into agreement because of the understood fact that only God is perfect.
The lengths James White and other reformed individuals must go to make simple verses fit their systematic theology shows that they are starting with an extra-biblical teaching. This debate gives me confidence that my confusion with Calvinism is justified.
@15:36 Here is the difference between the sins you speak of. 1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.
muslims don't fear losing their salvation, whatever they do, because they have the notion that there will be a temporary stay in hell for those muslims that were sinners... do you want to become muslim?
Trent Horn. You are right all the way! And there is nothing to add when this is so clear. The problem in the end is following the Bible, or, as Dr. White has done, follow your theology, despite the Bible. God Bless
Did you read your bible? How does one get born again? What does it mean to be born again? What does it mean to enter into grace and then fall out of grace? Is it the same as being born again? If entering into grace is the same as being born again then what Trent Horn is saying is that one get born again, throws it away ( falls out of grace ) and then of their own accord gets born again when they enter grace again...etc...etc...etc.....??? Right????
@@kevinrtres Ypu want to make being born again what it is not. Bieng born again simply means being saved.. Your calvinist lens of looking at being born again is what you are using to get someone to believe your point, but that poin will be only be valid if everyone buys into your version of born again. Bieng born again is being saved. It is when you join the family of Christ that you are born again, and that is salvation. Again take off the calvinist lens and read the Bible simply for yourself
@@stonykalangoministries OK, so what does it mean to be saved? By the way - why do you think Jesus used that analogy - the imagery that shows the one being born again contributes absolutely nothing to the process? So if the one being born again cannot contribute then just who does all the contribution? What part does the "DEAD in sins and trespasses" person play in being raised from spiritual DEATH? So - again - just what does it mean to be saved??? To be saved in real, physical life sounds to me like someone who is unable to help themselves in a dangerous situation - and hence that person needs to be RESCUED, e.g. SAVED from whatever is looming! So - again - just what does it mean to be saved spiritually?
Trent Horn continually thinks of what a person has to do to be saved, and then to what a person has to do once they fall away to get back in to the grace of God. White , on the contrary, thinks of God's saving completely those He calls.
Acts 2:37-38 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” And Peter said unto them, “Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
@@WalkingRoscoe bottom line: White and other Protestants have created this ridiculous distinction between the “descriptive” and “prescriptive” sense of scripture …. It’s an entirely bankrupt hermeneutical-exegetical practice that is necessary to deny the plain sense of scripture which clearly teaches (as the Catholic Church does) that man has moral agency enough to resist grace lose his salvation and that God desires all to be saved. also, Hebrews 6 is clear that apostasy is real. The apostle Paul described our lives as “running a race to the end” and absolutely believed we could fall. and there will be a final judgment we can all agree. It’s a mystery along with John 6 (more mystery) that teaches the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. and John 23 onward that clearly teaches Christ began his Church with the apostles and specifically Peter who could bind and forgive sin … Christ’s church and the Councils and oral tradition lasted for 400 years prior to the arrival of the NT …. The church fathers during that time established the trinity, condemned heresy like Pelagianism ,,, and dies as martyrs. This is where Chesterton began with the logic of scripture and history. If you’re interested, read Chesterton ….
I dont believe Trent. I believe Jesus. "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you. I will take your heart of stone and give you an heart of flesh. And I will put a new spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and you will keep my judgments and do them."- Jesus
@@elsablue3646 it's nice to know that only some of us are predestined and other of use which can be you and me are destined to hell. You can't say you are predestined to enternal life in Jesus by the simple fact that you don't know the future. If you happen to fall according to White means you never were on the same path to began with and possibly never to be on that path.
I don’t think that you can “lose” your salvation, but certainly a person can throw it away. And I am sure they can come back to it again, with God’s grace.
Then they were never actually saved Jesus in John 6 and John 10 says you cannot lose your salvation. John in 1 John 2 says if they do walk away they were never saved any way Hebrews 3 says the same thing
You phrasing it a different way is a distinction without a difference. *throwing it away* results in losing possession of that which u once have. And that will never be the case for true believers
Neither addressed the issue of man's ability to come to Christ. John 6:44 "No man 'can' come..." The verb can says nothing about freedom of choice. Man has choice. The issue is ability. Genesis teaches man became dead spiritually in the fall. Paul affirms this in Eph 1 "dead in trespasses" indicating man has no ability to choose Christ nor come to Christ apart from the work of God. I enjoyed the debate and think Dr. Whites use of scripture in his argument was more compelling.
Yeah, because we treat the Bible as a whole (Total Scriptura) with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Reading a text without analyzing the context may cause misinterpretation. To sum it up the reason why I believe in eternal security is because Jesus had said it and the reason why their are warnings is to reveal to us who are the real Christians.
The result of salvation is a New Creature; created In Christ in righteousness and true holiness. This New Creation cannot be uncreated. He is born of God of incorruptible seed which remains in him, neither can he sin because he's born of God In Christ. 1 John 3:9, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Ephesians 2:10, 4:24
He nailed himself. Their are many bible references that has to be removed before calvinism can be truly biblical. The belief that other biblical views are erroneous is myopic.
James White clearly lost this debate. As Trent said, James theology is driving his misreading of the Bible, rather than letting the Bible verses speak for themselves. The evidence is overwhelming. If Judas the apostle can lose his salvation by abandoning Christ, then we can too...
Perfect example the thief at the cross was given the gift of salvation without no works and didn't even need the gift of perseverance. saved by grace alone. Today thou shalt be with me in paradise. love it!
Yes because the bridegroom was still present. It is a very different scenario when the bridegroom is away and that is when you fast. So your alleged perfect example regarding the thief at the cross is false and not applicable anymore.
Have you studied the thieves on the cross or are you simply posing an argument for a free pass into the kingdom? It is a very typical go-to verse used in attempts to formulate an entire theology around a unique event. When I asked if you had studied the thieves from the Bible, I did so because if you had you would have discovered a very interesting sequence of events. We are told in John that there were three men being crucified that day. Two thieves with Jesus in between. We are told in each of the synoptic gospels that as the Jews and the Romans were mocking Jesus, so were BOTH of the thieves. Mt. 27:44 tells us that the they were both insulting Jesus in the same way. So they were mocking Him for being a King and saying, "Why don't you save yourself and us!?" Ha Ha. But as the hours passed and they observed the Son of Man, he did not cast aspersions back to His tormentors. Instead, He asked God to forgive them! He cried out to God. He took care of His mother. He moved the heart of some of the most hardened of that day. Even the centurion on duty concluded that this Man was surely the Son of God. And one of the thieves was moved as well. We see evidence of repentance and taking a stand for what he came to believe. When you read Luke's account you will see a man who went from a life of crime and crassly insulting Jesus to a man who rebuked his fellow thief for doing what he had also done just hours before. He admitted his sinfulness. He did not demand or even ask for exoneration or even freedom. He acknowledged his guilt and his punishment. And then he defended the innocence of Jesus. NOTHING YOU SAY? And then he turned to the Man which was considered a joke by all and begged for mercy. Nothing? He did all that he could possibly do given his circumstances and his understanding. Are you doing all you can do for the Lord? So because he was about to die tied to a cross prevented him from being baptized or helping the poor or whatever else you think we might propose is a requirement or obligation, do you think God the Righteous Judge will condemn this man for something which was impossible for him to ever do? So now should we compose an entire theology around the example of the thief on the cross? And feel comfortable following his example which should be the universally applied standard? Are you really going to point to him as your excuse for DOING NOTHING? If you are, you are not going to at all like how Jesus will respond to you. Please go back and study for yourself so that you will be prepared to give a proper response when tested.
A little late to the party but I am having a hard time rationalizing how people are being awed by Mr. Horn. He literally was backed into a theological corner and had to construct a new subgroup of Christians that God extended grace too and denied the gift of perseverance too, but suggests he rather gives the aforementioned gift to the elect he afore knew would persevere regardless. All doctrinal positions are maintained by their respective devotees by taking the prescriptive/descriptive approach which is obviously going to be altered by the individuals predispositions but the real battle is whose theological construct can pack the rest of the text. I just can’t accept the preposition of God, allowing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit into the vessel of an individual he foreknows will not remain in grace. Obviously Mr. Horn does in fact believe in the perseverance of the elect saints God foreknew, but because of his theological presuppositions believes that this intermediary group of people who received grace were not of the same group predestined to becoming more like Christ by the sanctification of the Holy Spirit?
There’s enough Biblical evidence to support the Catholic Church view on this. Anyone can be a believer but it takes a person of real moral courage to be an actual follower. They know we are Christians by our actions. Actions absolutely matter.
No one is saying that sin is greater than the works of Christ but Christ himself said he would separate the goats from the sheep based on what they did in this life.
Matthew 7:21-23 The True Disciple.21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,* but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.n22Many will say to me on that day,o ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’p23Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you.* Depart from me, you evildoers.’q
No. He who endures to the end will be saved. God can blot a person's name out the book of life (you'll find that in revelation) wise and foolish virgins. Lord Lord didn't we cast out demons and do all these things in your name? Depart from me I never knew you. Verses like that destroy your argument.
I watched this 5 years ago as a new Calvinist and was with Dr. White all the way but I felt that Trent did a decent job defending his position. Here we are 5 years later, still a Calvinist and still agree here with JW. Only difference is I’m now able to see that Trent is all over the place and is confusing.
@@teth-adamIt's probably the fact that Trent horns doctrine is contradicting on all fronts. He won part one of the debate but part two really shows that he doesn't understand what a shepard is. Hilariously Shepard's of ancient times would break their sheep's legs if they wouldn't follow them and then pick them up and carry them.
Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
@@jesuschristsaves9067 When I placed my faith in HIm, a Fatherson relationship was built. No one can nullify it. I might deny that my earthly father is my father because I did something greatly wrong (which I think His grace is greater than my sins where when my sin abounds his grace did much more abound Rom. 5:20), but the fact remains that I am a child of my father. we share the same blood and DNA. Nothing can remove a Christian from God’s hand (John 10:28-29). God guarantees eternal life and maintains the salvation He has given us. The Good Shepherd searches for the lost sheep, and, “when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home” (Luke 15:5-6). The lamb is found, and the Shepherd gladly bears the burden; our Lord takes full responsibility for bringing the lost one safely home. Jude 24-25 further emphasizes the goodness and faithfulness of our Savior: “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy-to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.”
Meloy Gargallano For a Calvinist, that is a presumptuous statement because in order for all what you said to be true, man must have infallible knowledge of the future and know for certain that he is elect and cannot fall away. We agree that man’s assurance rest in the finished work of Christ, but what does not follow is that once you come to Christ you can never fall away. We must be careful not to elevate the words of Paul above the commands and warning of Christ and the real danger of falling away by not remaining in the vine (John 15:5.) We must test all teachings whether they are of man or of God and not be deceived with the philosophical spin of doctrine that convinces us of empty promises (Eph.5:6.) that i can never lose my salvation and making null and void the warnings. Can man be cut off, yes (Romans 11:22.) The audience of which hell was preached most often were not the unrighteous, but those who accepted Christ. This danger was very real and from my understanding of scripture this danger was not meant to be understood that look what I could’ve been, but instead, look what will happen (Matthew 5:22.)
@@jesuschristsaves9067 "man must have infallible knowledge of the future and know for certain that he is elect and cannot fall away." What do you mean by this Sir?
Sir correct me if I understand your statement as if I need to really understand everything about my being elect. Well, If I am a son of God, I don't have to understand everything as a prince is surely entitled to the inheritance of the king. Besides Sir, John 15:5 does not teach that a Christian can lose his salvation. the context goes back even to chapter8 of John where Christ is contrasting the works of the flesh and the spirit. Only in Jesus/True Vine can fruit be produced. JESUS IS THE TRUE VINE is the main theme of the chapter bro. If there are those who do not bear fruit and are cut down, THEN CHRIST IS THE PROBLEM because HE IS THE SOURCE. The reason that they are cut down is that in the first place they are not even connected to the VINE. I was dead in trespasses and sins and He made me alive. Ephesians 2 (read the whole chapter if you will). That would be spiritual suicide then if I can fall away from Him when He already quickened me. He saved from the penalty of sin, He is saving me from the power of sin ( I cannot maintain living a holy life and neither can you), AND HE WILL SAVE ME FROM THE PRESENCE OF SIN WHEN I AM IN GLORY WITH HIM.
If you missed Part 1, watch it here: th-cam.com/video/oFs3vnTlnnw/w-d-xo.html
been their done that boring.
@Stuart Williamson
When?
@@pauloftarsus8145
Been where? Done what?
Salvation
By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
- Ephesians 2:8
The faith through which we are saved is the free gift of God. Our salvation is not based on our good works, on our best efforts at religion, or on our foreseen faith (faith itself being the free gift of God). Salvation is of the Lord, and it is entirely based upon his sovereign grace.
Our faith, therefore, is not in faith, or in self, but rests in Jesus Christ alone as its perfect and glorious object. If our faith was in anything else it could be defeated, be deceived, or be derailed. Our good works come and go. Our spiritual zeal has its ups and downs. Even our faith waxes and wanes. But Christ's work is always sufficient.
What a joy grace is! If we could earn salvation, then we could lose salvation. If we could lose salvation, we would lose salvation (remember even perfect Adam lost his perfection). But because salvation is by grace, our faith in Jesus Christ will never be disappointed or dismantled. It is as secure as God himself can make it.
Walk in that faith today. Rest in that grace today.
@@SeekTheTruth205 Amen
I’m not catholic. I’m Protestant and more reformed in my theology, but I can recognize Trent Horn did a good job here. I appreciate how high a caliber this discussion is. It’s very interesting.
The path to destruction is very eloquent, enticing and smooth. The path to salvation is narrow and unpleasant and sometimes undefendable.
@@regelnews989 Exactly! That's why you must repent and confess your sins. You couldn't have brought up a better quote. It's not easy to get to heaven.
God bless 🙏❤️💙❤️🙏✝️🛐
I'm not a catholic either but Trent Horn is correct. The difference between these 2 men in this debate is that one is reading his theology and creeds into the text and other is not doing that. Both men know what they believe.
I will state emphatically that there abominable practices within the Roman Catholic traditions. The are heretical teaching in protestant traditions. Our practice and our theology must be derived from the scripture in context and as a consistent whole. You can't start your reading of scripture with a presupposition about the order of salvation and then exegete the text in light of the presupposition. That's the error for James White.
@@Unobserved07 You are over simplifying, I can agree Trent has some great points but he also brought his theology into the text, you see it clear as day when he is forced to speak on “foreknown/predestined” texts like Romans 8. The first 10min was ridiculously confusing as Trent tries to make arminianism fit with Scriptures dealing with ordained election, it doesnt work. If you go to the end of Part 1 you see Trent speaks on this “God looks ahead on who will accept him, etc.” explanation, its not at all what “foreknown” or “predestined” even means as terms.
@@ricoparadiso foreknowledge is quite literally to know beforehand. Predestined does not mean predetermined as in picked for destruction or picked for salvation. You are predestined to what ? To be conformed to the image of His son. This happens when you listen to His voice and follow Him, not departing again to submit yourself to the law of sin and death, but by putting to death the deeds of body so that you may live. For you are slaves to that which you obey. Does God force you to be comformed and obey him? Of course not. Now once you're ready to make a counter argument by using romans 9 without specifically referencing the old testament context for each example in it including, exodus/Jeremiah/and malachi, we can discuss what it means to have zeal without knowledge.
The problem is people have built a knowledge of God without diligently seeking Him as he has revealed Himself in His word. Ripping verses out of context to make a pretext by which to build a systematic theology of God, whereby nullifying the principle that God is the just and the justifier of those who love him is grievous error and dangerous.
The cross examination section needs to be much longer, in all debates.... In-fact, it should be the new format.
Agreed in all honesty the real debate starts in the cross examination
Agreed. It should be 20% opening/closing statements and 80% cross.
I could never keep my hold , He will hold me fast, He will not let my soul be lost.
Amen. If we are truly born again and changed in our hearts we will be sealed and kept in Jesus Christ eternally. I agree with James that when we are truly in Jesus Christ no one and nothing can separate us from His love.👑🦁💜the scripture is clear on this. A change only in mind is not true salvation.
@@elsablue3646 amen
JUDUS NEVER FELL A WAY HE WAS NEVER A BELIEVER AT ALL
@@theodoreritola7641In Acts 1: 17. Peter clearly said that Judas was numbered with them and had obtained part of the ministry. In also said in verse 25:55 that Judas fell by transgression. To transgress is to sin and of course one could only fall if he was standing or secured in the first place. You can't fall except you were not falling at first.
JUDAS WAS NEVER A BELIVER , BUT ARE you? or are you a worker ? Jesus even caled judas a devil and the sun of perdision
After watching this debate. I realized. I will apply all verses. Not pick and choose. And Trent did an amazing job making me understand more.
What Trent did was to attempt a more inclusive perception of the content by reading it's entire message. It does give a better understanding of what the main points are trying to convey. I'd like to add that realizing how long the Catholic Church can actually go back and trace their origins as compared to the reformed church , it does open up more divisions that continued to form beyond the protestant reforms started by Catholic origins. So the promotion or progress of faith had more than 1000 years behind it up until the split. It does appear to be like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Well said, if you cheery pick then you will accept James's position.
th-cam.com/video/TbKAayHcQco/w-d-xo.html
CAN or will Jesus Christ EVER,,, UN,,, REDEEM HIS OWN AND ABORT THEM ?
That's great, any decent teacher will drive that point home. We need to know that and remind each other to include context always
Jesus choose Peter but yet Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith may not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers
Peter was afraid for his own life and therefore denied he knew Jesus, but he did not deny him as the Messiah and Savior, obviously he didn't bc Peter came back stronger than ever in faith and love for Jesus and his ministry.
Those are words for a chosen leader. That's why Peter's name always comes out first in the list of Apostles. That explains why Judas is at the last.
I take heart in knowing there are real people in this world who really think and care about arguing for what they believe is the truth.
the truth is the more important than our lives
"Nothing in my hands i bring, simply to the cross i cling." Thank you Lord Jesus
Amen!
You bring the will, the holy desire, to cling to the Cross. We consent to surrender to his Will. But clearly, we can withhold that consent... And yes, it is by God's grace that we consent; but we are not puppets, we are free to accept or reject that grace... In any case, keep clinging.
@@marianweigh6411
Nothing in my hands refers to a sacrificial gift,, I think every believer already knows that one brings the heart and manifestation of faith which is the essential requirement to cling , that is if one feels they must cling instead of stand in the saving grace our savior provides
Amen! Not by our deeds or any part of us but by His sacrifice and grace i am saved. I am His. When we truly are saved we are never taken out of His hand. Alleluia!
@Sim Amen :)
These two did an outstanding job staying on a path of discovery in this debate. Such a great debate and so much to take from both of these speakers.
A big topic that was well captured!
Thank God for his grace and for his salvation .
CAN A REAL CHRISTIAN EVER BE ,,,,,UN ....REDEEMED JESUS CHRIST DOES NOT BELIVE SO OSAS IS TRUE TO JESUS CHRIST
Both men did exceptionally well.
CAN Jesus Christ ,,,, un... redeeme his children? NEVER OSAS IS VERY TRUE PERIOD
@@theodoreritola7641 OSAS is a modern doctrine created by those who don't understand that God desires obedience from His people & not just expressions of belief uttered through peoples mouth yet their heart or souls are far away from Him.
OK tell me this then IIIIIFFFF you dont believe OSAS you HAVE TO BELIEVE Jesus Christ will ,,,UN.... REDEEM HIS OWN AFTER HAS REDEEMED THEM AND THAT HE WILL ABORT THEM OSAS IS THE GOSPEL OR A CHTISTIAN CAN BECOME ,UN, BORN AGAIN JOHN CH 3 VS 16 ,DO YOU BELIEVE JESUS CHRIST ?
True Christians will endure to the end because Jesus intercedes for them. This is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. What an amazing authority of the greatness of Jesus.
Amen. Jesus prays not for the world but for those the Father has given Him (john 17:9) ( not only Jesus but the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us in our weakness, when we dont know what we ought to pray for) and willed that He not lose them but raise them up on the last day. (John 6:39) He prays that our faith fails not, much like He did for Peter. (Luke 22:32) Those whom The Father has given Christ from out of the world.(john 6:37) We are promised, guaranteed and sealed unto the day of redemption to everlasting life by the same power that raised Christ from the dead. (Rom.8:11) The effectual fervent prayer of Jesus the righteous avails much. (James 5:16) Therefore He is able to save completely those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them.(Heb.7:25) Amen.
This is the part where protestants brothers get it wrong. Jesus says he will not lose any that the father has given me. BUT that does not mean the cant leave on their own. That's why people fall away, no one took them from Jesus they left on their own. That's the difference.
Exactly! Why Mr. Horn "just doesn't see it" is beyond me. Dr. White further emphasize it in Greek in the closing statement.
You are so correct that True Christians will.endure to the end, btw just a quick question how would you determine a true from false Christian? I suppose we have to determine it's creation or origin. So the word Catholic were officially named around 300 AD. And they were the one who compiled the books in the Bible. The early fathers of the church translated it to different languages. I suppose they continue this work to spread the word of God. So they continued the mission passed on by the apostles. May I ask when was your church founded, I mean literally when was your church founded, I suppose you have Anniversary right? So is it possible that the early fathers where fake and after a very very long time somebody suddenly realizes the Truth. And uses even the most blasphemic reasoning, that God revealed the truth to them and so the new meaning of the words in the Bible can now be interpreted by anyone who claims it. Who do you think would know more accurately the history of your country, the latest historian or the people who lived and wrote stories during the time your country where discovered. Do you also believe that all details during that era were all written by the historian at that time. I guess not. So we have to consider the culture and tradition that were passed on into different generation. If a certain period in your country's history, you were colonized for a very very long time by foreign intruders and eventually claimed later that they are the true citizen of that country, would you believe them. Then I gues what we need to do for us to know the truth is to check on the facts. God bless us all.
@@elreyhats You imply that without scriptural proof. That would be like Jesus saying. “I’ll hold to you unless you want to leave.” What breaks the seal of the Holy Spirit? Man’s free will? You give too much authority to a sinner.
This debate proves to me that our labels can obscure. I am not a Catholic but the Catholic in this debate is making a whole lot of sense to me.
@Ed Mendez both used the Bible. They just have a different interpretations of scripture.
@Ed Mendez it is not his personal interpretation. that is called eisegesis. What James White is doing is called "exegesis" which is basically understanding the text in its original intended meaning. The original context. This involves investigating the historical and cultural backgrounds of the author, text, and original audience. Other analyses include classification of the type of literary genres presented in the text and analysis of grammatical and syntactical features in the text itself. What you're describing is "literal interpretation" which basically is understanding the text in plain language. This process involves trusting the Biblical tradition and bible translators. This leads to a number problems since the translators are not 100% reliable. The English or Latin translation is significantly different from the original language used by the writers when they write the text (Hebrew and Ancient Greek). Not saying that we are required to learn Hebrew or Greek. But in crucial theological subject such as the gospel or salvation, it is necessary to dig deeper to get an accurate understanding of the text.
No he’s not. The first mistake was him being Catholic in the first place. They worship idols.
@@guiseppethegentman you are just allergic to giving people a fair shake aren't you. No points to make so you just attack the straw man you grew up with. Not here to argue because arguing via comments is dreadful, but show some fucking decorum man. No one has made more Catholics than people like you who bring nothing but toxicity to the table.
Agree. I am not a cathol8c but he is slaying the arguments of the ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED crowd. I have a new respect for catholics because of this view. (Still don't trust the vatican)
42:54 is where James White’s pride took so many shots, that he had to make it ugly. Calvinism speaks of grace so much and displays so little.
God bless you brother...actually calvinism helped me to see the bible as a whole and displayed everything in it to me after so many years in the salvation by works believe vs. Being saved by works which sounds logical as a human but when you go through the bible you find a lot of gray areas if you look at it through the salvation by works lenses. Bless you again brother.
Like many of you, I found this debate to be both fascinating and very thought provoking. As a former conservative evangelical, I was surprised to find Mr. Horn's argument so logical, well ordered and with a solid Biblical foundation. I can see from many comments that many of you felt the same...Which leaves some of you with something of a conundrum. How can the man who we know also holds to Mary as co-redeemer with Christ, Purgatory, and Transubstantiation among other doctrines, have a seemingly correct view on this topic? And if so, how does that impact the universally acknowledged "By Grace Alone, By Faith Alone" plan of salvation? While the essence of what Dr. White proposes is that we are all robots, some determined to glory without any input or participation in any way, shape or form. For those who may be interested, there is a third alternative which presents the gospel in a way that you probably have not heard before. If you might consider investing the time, you may see a gospel which is harmonious with both the Bible and itself. One which does not pit scripture against scripture nor does it have to force fit the natural understanding of passages so that they might comply with a theological model. Here is a forty second review of the TH-cam Channel which lays out this gospel step-by-step. It was unsolicited. I just happened to stumble upon it. Thank you. Grace and Peace to you. th-cam.com/video/0l2pIwbmAnEH/w-d-xo.htmlere is the link to the TH-cam Channel: th-cam.com/channels/db7ghP3lHTnpsuXUlFDBMw.htmlplaylistsIf you prefer podcasts, links to various podcasts are in the about section of each video.
Herb Shattuck
Thank you. I’ll take a look into the videos you recommended.
His statement was accurate.
@@tricord2939 Trent horn? Yes. James white? No.
Also you really have to give credit to Trent for going into the Lions Den- G3 conference is FAAAR from Catholic friendly.
He's so sweating. Look close you'll see. James isn't
Romeo Sabaoth
The illogical summary of Jame Whites position
Noah Wells
No I am not.
Noah Wells I am though bud, what would you like to know about the Universal Church?
@@atruechristianforlife7787 can I ask some questions of yourself? Starting with this: Why is there still a Cleopatra's needle at the front of the Vatican?
James White basically said in his closing argument that because Trent Horn is a Catholic that all his arguments from scripture are invalid even if they made sense. Not cool.
Jonine Blackshear not biased much, is it?
He's arguing against Rome's position/ideas of synergism, continued penances & the dogma of purgatory relative to one's sin & salvation. All of which is not in the Bible.
@@prayingpatriot8018 the Harlot Church
Where's the problem?
Walking Roscoe White is in-denial to the truth of scripture.
Dr White's 10-minute closing is more gospel than what we get to see here in Nigerian churches. God bless him.
Amen and amen. I just listened to it and played it for my wife. It is the gospel promises without the confusing clouds blocking out the light. Amen.
Calvinism is false though, that's the paradigm he interprets scripture and the Gospel.
@andys3035 which part is false?
@foluwasoaribisala TULIP, Double Predestination, the idea of the damning of the Son. Calvinism has lots of problems.
To me, this debate is really about free will.
1). Did God draw me and give me faith to choose him and then after choosing him only allow me to choose what He wants? And then knowing that I really had no choice because He chose me.
OR
2). Did God draw me and give me faith to chose Him and then let me choose how to live my life as I choose, now knowing the truth of his Grace? And daily desiring to CHOOSE to follow Him because I am thankful for the gift of grace He has given me. And knowing that that Grace is so much sweeter because He loves me enough to let me throw it away if I choose. Knowing that my choosing does not diminish His Grace in ANY way.
One way sounds like a programmed response and one sounds like a relationship!
Yes, ive also heard from the once saved always saved camp that even our good works are fore ordained by God and He does the work in us. Our good works are actually His doing per many bible verses but they at the same time deny calvinism and James White
Impressed with Mr horn.....and I am persuaded by his arguments. Much to my surprise! I am not Calvin is nor catholic, but James white usually annihilates his opponents, and did not here. I am surprised I would ever agree with catholic on theology. I love these debates if you will talk to me that open mind you can really learn things whether they change your view or not
Well thats great to hear John
Mr. Horn state that Eternal Security is not part of Apostolic teaching. Really? Is Mary, Praying to Mary, Mary entering heaven in Bodily form, Mary’s is sinless, Mary never had children, sex etc, Purgatory, Transubstantiation, Priest,...........on and on, Gas lighting! He is the Apostate that he refers to, trampling on the Son of God. And yes, we all fall away every day! Thant does not mean you have lost your salvation. God standard for Heaven is perfection. Mr Horn like the rest of the work is far from perfect, thus he cannot save himself.. He needs a perfect sacrifice and savior.
@@CENTURY21JEANNINE you must be refering to another "Mr. Horn" the one in the video never claimed such nonesense that he was perfect, or that he would save himself. Hope this help
@@CENTURY21JEANNINE Everything you listed is Apostolic. Do you actually read the whole bible? Or just a few verses? For example- Priest- notice the word presbyter....
Titus 1:5, for this cause I left thee in Crete, ordain Presbyters in
every city.
Acts 14:22-23, Ordained Priests in every church, and prayed with
fasting they commended them to the Lord.
Acts 20:28, Bishops watch over the church.
Mary,
yes she is sinless and never had other children.
LK 1:28, Hail Full of Grace Note: the Greek word used is
“Kecharitomene” = Perfectly , completely endowed with Grace.
NOBODY in the bible is described in this manner.
Bodily form in heaven? well Enoch and Elijhah are in bodily form in heaven, Why not Our Lords Mother?
Gen 5:24, Heb 11:5, 2Kings 2:1-13, Enoch & Elijah were assumed
into heaven
Matt 27:52-53, Saints rose and were seen walking in the city,
where did they go? Assumed into heaven.
I can go on and on also showing purgatory and the Real Presence of our Lord in his Body and Blood.
John sullivan jr I agree 100% I am a born again believer and I completely have to side with the Catholic in this situation much to my surprise!
James White's approach seems to be 1) for verses which seem to support faith alone salvation, lean on the verse itself (John 6:44), 2) for any other problematic passages, assume the truth of "the Gospel" in Scripture, and then use the weight of that to assert it's different meaning. He rarely interacts with the problematic passages directly.
For example?
Facts
Eternal security!
Jesus payed the price for (ALL MY SIN) at the moment of my “salvation” 🥰 there is no sin left for me to commit that can cause me to lose it. There is one unforgivable sin and that’s blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and somebody who has received salvation cannot commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. So yes once saved always saved praise God my salvation is not in my own hands because if it were I would surely lose it The very same way I earned the wages of death.
Romans 5:12
Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned-
Eternal life was once in the hands of man remember Adam and eve? Even in their perfected state because they were not born spiritually dead, inheriting original sin as we do, they still sinned and fell. To believe that God I’d go through everything that he has for humanity in sending his son his only son to die for us horribly on the cross to then put that salvation that his son earned back into the same hands of his creation that lost in the first place would be a mistake that God cannot make as he makes no mistakes.
Eternal security😉
Ephesians 4:30 ►
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Who redeems us? 🤔 yes Christ Jesus, so the seal on our salvation can only be opened and redeemed by Christ. We cannot open the seal of our salvation as to lose it. That’s the point of the verse saying “ sealed,’ why bother sealing it if some sin we commit can just open and undo it ?
John 6:37 ►
All those the Father gives me (will come to me) and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
(Will come to me) , seems pretty sure doesn’t he. 😊. The verse doesn’t say all that the father gives me will come to me unless they somehow mess up and commit some sin that causes them to lose their salvation. ☺️🙏🏼 and praise God for that. One more ..🤓
Jude 24
King James Version
24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you (faultless )before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
The scripture says we have peace with God through Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 5:1-2
Therefore, we have peace with God
5 Therefore, since we have been made righteous through his faithfulness,[a] we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 We have access by faith into this grace in which we stand through him, and we boast in the hope of God’s glory.
How can we have peace with God if we can commit some sin that could cause the loss of salvation. The scriptures says God knows the beginning from the end. So he knows all the sin I will ever commit in my life, yet the Bible says I have peace with God by faith in Christ because of the imputed righteousness of Christ at the moment of my salvation. So knowing that God forgave all my sin past present and future at salvation I have peace with the God that can see all the sin I will still commit after salvation, yet says I have peace with him anyway because of the faith he gave me in Christ Jesus our Lord. 🙌
2 Timothy 2:13
if we are faithless, he remains faithful, for he cannot disown himself.
Himself🤔 yes because the Holy Spirit of God is in us remember. And will never leave us. We may grieve him or quench him to the point he will not guide us but as scripture says, all that the father gives me will come to me, and I will NEVER drive him away.
Now if you have some scripture that seems to teach otherwise, please send it friend and I will show you how it doesn’t.😊. God bless🙏🏼🕊
typical of what all trinitarians do
@@TimKollat ◄ Matthew 28:19 ►
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, the Trinity “God head” in scripture.
Scripture is the reason why Christians believe God is Triune. The doctrine of the Trinity is the best interpretation of the Bible. Just as the Quran does not systematically expound upon the doctrine of Tawhid, the Bible does not expound upon the doctrine of the Trinity in any one place. However, there are five elements found repeatedly throughout the Bible’s text that are best interpreted through the lens of the Trinity:
1. There is only one God (e.g., Rom. 3:30)
2. The Father is God (e.g., John 6:27)
3. Jesus is God (e.g., John 20:28; Rom. 9:5; 2 Peter 1:1)
4. The Holy Spirit is God (e.g., Acts 5:3-5)
5. These Three are distinct persons (e.g., John 14:16-17)
So if there are Three distinct persons that are God, but there is only one God, we are naturally led to the doctrine of the Trinity: one God who subsists in three persons.
A verse that indicates the unity of these three distinct persons is Matthew 28:19, which says, “Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” All three persons in this verse share one name, because they are one being.
Trent is one of my favorite Catholic Apologist's. God Bless The One Holy And Apostolic Catholic Church.
The One HOLY Church that RAPED thouunds of Children!
" You will know them by their fruit"!
Wow, I have watched James White debate for 20 years,,, this debate is one of those times he is really on the ropes.... He is doubting his position...look at his physical mannerisms...
God Bless Trent Horn.
Yes he is on the rope and may have spoke false doctrine. Only Dr Michael brown has put him on the rope until now. Good job Mr Trent Horn.
Are you blind??
Immutability!! God never changes so why would he change salvation.
Choose you this day who you may serve Joshua 24:15. "choose" maybe Joshua was lying. Hebrews7:12. For when the priesthood is changed, there also has to be a change in the law. No, not blind at all.
Vincent Sheridan they both don’t know the true God ( once saved always saved ) God Gave his only begotten son to the world so we , ( sinners) will call upon the lord Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior John 3:16
41:00 he tries to insult Dr. James by the statement "Anyone would read it here." That is a dishonest statement to make he should have apologized for that insulting Mr. White like that. I agree with Mr. White completely no works can justify salvation to Christ.
He's even sweating very bad and breathing through his mouth
How about the act of faith. Is act not a verb.
James White is a prime example of a Calvinist who has to abandon the plain sense meaning of a word or sentence in favor of a convoluted interpretation that is driven solely by his adherence to Calvinist doctrine and not by adherence to the text.
Astounding criticism to someone who holds to sola scriptura...the convoluted interpretation is in the sola ekklesia position
Let us hear the "plain meaning" of the word. Jehovah s witnesses love to quote the plain meaning too, so I guess Jesus must be a created being because he went to "my father and your father my God and your God". Plain meaning lovers often end up in sects like Heavens gate without the suicide part.
Understanding the “plain meaning” of the text can be in and of itself dangerous. For example. In Colossians 1:15 Jesus is called the firstborn of all creation. Are we to simply interpret this plainly as the words are stated? Absolutely not. The word firstborn is a Jewish idiom and we must understand how was such a word to be understood?
Firstborn = prōtotokos (πρωτοτόκος)
If we look at the Greek Septuagint, we will find this word used 130+ times, sometimes indicating the birth of a first child, but is this what Paul is saying?
Exodus 4:22
Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the LORD, "Israel is My son, My firstborn.
Now obviously, Israel is not the first nation God created, but instead is the nation that God chose to have a special relationship with.
We also see,
Jeremiah 31:9
...for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
Such a passage speaks of Israel's relationship to God and Ephraim's special status in God's sight.
But the verse that really expresses what Paul may be referring to is,
Psalm 89:27
I also shall make him My firstborn, The highest of the kings of the earth.
This is a Messianic verse that is talking about the Messiah to come (verse 20).
The Psalm seems to indicate a place of preeminence and high status rather than birth or origin.
Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
Here, the Lord's superiority and sovereignty over "the brethren" is acknowledged as well as His leadership over their salvation.
Hebrews 1:6 NASB
[6] And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "And LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
Firstborn in the passage above is indicating a title of position, and not birth or origin. Especially since angels worship Him.
Colossians 1:18
"...firstborn from the dead..."
Revelation 1:5
"...Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth..."
Obviously Jesus is not the first person in all of history to have died. So it is clear as of now that firstborn (prōtotokos) indicates a position of priority and not creation or origin.
@@jmsto87 Catholics actually believe in church and scripture...
@@RGTomoenage11 Roman Catholics might be the most notorious examples of ignoring scripture. Those who have opened their eyes are flocking straight out of it by the droves every year. Please be in the next one.
White's interpretation of the scripture off the chart 😢😢 Once saved always saved is a dangerous doctrine
That's not what he argued for
Kenlo i want to see how brave you are to answer IF to you does Jesus Christ EVER ,,,un,,, redeem his OWN AFTER HE HAS redeemed them ? Kenlo can a born again Christian ,,,EVER,,, BE COME ,,,,UN,,, BORN AGAIN ?Does God put his own children on PROBATION If you say. .yes... to these qs to u JESUS CHRIST DOES NOT KEEP HIS WORD
My favourite point made was that no Church Father backs the Calvinist view and no serious theologian until the 1500's. If a disciple of one of the original 12 never heard of this central element of theology then I don't think it was Jesus' message.
The Apostles did.
James gave church fathers in the first part.
I'm 2 yrs late to your comment, but you need to actually READ the church fathers writings.
@@robertcampbell1343 Hi, will you please expand your comment a bit?
@@tricord2939 Where's the proof ?
I love that Horn did not make it a Catholic perspective but rather just a doctrinal one.
By 10.15 They become bogged down Terminolgy and splitting words and stuff . Just talk REAL Trent starts getting bogged down in splitting hairs . That’s because that’s what white wants .
@@mordecaiesther3591 well I think it failed him.
He (Mr. Horn) kept referring and pointing to Calvin in aims of discrediting Dr. White, which is an instant Catholic reaction to losing a debate with scripture as the key source.
@@WalkingRoscoe who gave you the scriptures. ??? Who picked the books we have as scripture ?? The Holy Ghost and Catholic Church . It says in revelation some people lost there first love . You can lose your first love and never want to have anything to do with Christ ... they tasted salvation and then walked away . This is horrible to happen to anybody .
@@mordecaiesther3591 oh here we go with the dated Catholic rhetoric.
Great debate. Both were fantastic and raised valid points.
Thank you Jesus for saving me!
Horn did a fantastic job.
Naw
@@manofwar2529 Yes he did. God bless.
Mr. Horn made absolutely no sense when he was trying to explain "the gift of perseverance". What's the difference between what he said and what James White was saying?
He lost right there....
@@graylad He lost nothing. The point that he made that he agreed with White only that God knows who will persevere to the end. We do not know who will persevere to the end. However, there are many people who are in a state of grace, in God's sight, who will disobey, (not persevere) and get cut off from God's grace, and won't persevere to the end. The multitude of Scriptures that he pointed to, show that there are people who are in God's grace, who will be cut off from God's grace because they don't persevere. Rom 11:22, Gal. 5:4, Heb. 10:29, Luke 8:13. Huge difference and Mr. Horn explained himself fine.
Matt all he did was add an extra unnecessary step in reformed theology regarding the P in TULIP. Cooperation of man’s will as necessary for salvation makes God not almighty or sovereign.
Trent Horn, God bless you brother in Christ. Thank you for stating the truth in this debate.
"If you remain in that grace" There is the very big IF, Which means that it is not absolute. So, salvation could be lost. It has no connection to the belief that Jesus fails in his salvation process.
Factss
Amen! Also check out Hebrews 10:26-31 powerful passage confirming the once save always saved is a lie from statin. It's all over scripture warning after warning to endure and remain in Christ. This does not mean a works based salvation we are saved through faith by God's grace. There is a condition though and a test. God does offer way more grace and mercy than we deserve for when we stumble.
"Take care brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called "today," that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, "IF" indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end" Hebrews 3:12-14
When Joshua said "Choose this day whom you will serve" I believe it's an active command. Not a one time prayer you said 15 years ago. We are moral agents for Christ and there is freedom in Christ to choose him over sin every day.
Stay awake brothers and sister and pray that you will be full of oil when Christ returns!
Amen
But, the Bible clearly says, “our works are of filthy rags” the literal meaning is menstrual rags. “Even our thoughts condemns us” so how does what you’ve taken out of context work? I live from moment to moment saved and un saved? Till I repent every second of the day for a thought I might have? Based on your way of interpreting scriptures, I’m saved and un saved on a daily bases. I could see myself saying, did I repent for that? Did I repent for this last 5 minutes? Talk about a nightmare of un certainty. If your salvation has to do with your great works: How much praise do you give God and how much praise goes to you? After all, you’re saying it’s a 2 way street.
@@jeffmays7192 All I can say jeff is that we commit sin continuously every day of our live and that is why.
Of you are sure that you do not commit any single sin, and remain pure then you are saved, So why worry?
More so repentance should not only be in the mind.
Do it by confessing, if indeed you really repent.
As a Protestant I have a serious question how do Catholics study the Bible ?
Horn for the win!
I’m a former Protestant, now Catholic. This debate, along with many other debates and various Catholic apologists helped my journey.
The final 10mins from both White and Horn, clearly demonstrate which view is more biblical 🙏
God is the final judge
Man cannot judge
So, you bend with every wind of doctrine? There is only ONE faith delivered to the saints and it ain't Catholic. Catholics' hopes lies with Mary and the Papacy. Pray that you go back to your first love.
@KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC I love the upbringing I had in the Protestant tradition. It taught me to love Christ and to love Scripture. But going deeper into my faith (Church Fathers, the consequences of Luther and Calvin's theology, etc.) lead me to the Church Jesus Christ founded, the Catholic Church.
@@barryclevenger7456 No, I was just willing to be lead by the Spirit in my look into the Church Fathers and the history of the faith. I went in believing the Catholic Church was wrong, hoping to find various Protestant doctrines. I came out of it realising the Catholic Church is the true Church that Christ founded.
Sola Scriptura (Bible Alone), Sola Fide (Faith Alone), Eucharist and Baptism are merely symbolic - among others, are completely unknown doctrines prior to the 16th century.
Mr. Horn has given me much to think about.
I hope the rest of his videos are insightful as his participation in this debate. I look forward to learning more about his faith.
Its in the bible
Yes. Yes it is. I have found what he says as biblical. All truth can be found in scripture. :-)
@@honestabe4161
That's wonderful to hear and as He also said, many christians hold the same view which means being a Catholic isn't necessary... If that's what you meant about learning more about his faith?
@@Captain_Of_A_Starship I was reading a document put out by the catholics that I found very interesting. It was Lumen Gentum and found this led to more questions.
“ Lumen Gentium and the CCC teach that those cannot be saved who know that Jesus made the Church necessary for salvation, yet refuse to enter the Church or remain in it, because by their actions they would be rejecting Christ himself and his salvific plan for us. And yet for those who are invincibly ignorant of those truths, the Church holds out that they can be saved, as Jesus desires that all be saved (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9). Because we cannot presume upon any person’s invincible ignorance, we must advance the Church’s divinely given Great Commission (Matt. 28:18-20) with diligence and charity (LG 16; CCC 848).”
More investigation is needed.
@@honestabe4161
Hope this is helpful to you in your search
th-cam.com/play/PLzZL-6PIsNgkx-DvBNSpvK1SATsHNGFQZ.html
They both did well, stop with all the negativity and rudeness in the comments. Conduct yourself better.
They were both respectful and both presented their views well, but that doesn't mean they both "did well." James did well in refuting the heresy of Roman Catholicism.
@@rickstark85 incredible job by Trent Horn Mr. White as always trying to spread his false religion
@@smedrano1964 cool story, bro
@@rickstark85 cowabunga dude
S Medrano reminds me of teenage mutant ninja turtles 🐢 lol
The Elect were chosen before the foundations therefore can not fall away, Gods grace is sufficient to get them conformed to the image of His Son. Everyone Predestined shall be brought to Glorification solely on Gods sovereign Grace
if you believe that, no need for the gospel and invitation from God and repentance
@@myraride9563 You've been blinded. If you are OF God, you will WANT the gospel, spread it to everyone you can, repenting of your sins, as you know Christ is your own means in salvation. Non-Calvinists do NOT know Calvinism, creating their own strawmen arguments to debunk and say "gotchya."
@@FabledNarrative you proved the persons point. If you’re always saved then there’s no need for repentance as long as you follow Christ. To be honest, demons are already in that category, they believe Jesus is the son of God just as much as you do. So what is it that distinguishes Protestants from the demons?
Calvinist filth
Salvation is the Work of God,,NOT OURS.
Glad you believe Catholic doctrine.
Then you won't have any problem taking the Mark of the Beast....Since you can't lose your salvation! Thou Deceiver of children...
@@phoenixrich149 No true believer will take the mark of the beast, and I'm not somebody who claims that works are the evidence of salvation. The angel of the Lord will command everyone to not take the mark as in Revelation 14:6-9 and the sheep will hear His voice and follow Him as in John 10:27.
Further, where else in scripture is the head and the hand referenced? In Deuteronomy 6:8, so the commandments in Deut 6:1-5 already are on the head and hand and cannot be replaced because the angel of the Lord will tell every person on earth to avoid it.
yes, but we must cooperate, we have free will, we are not zombies
Salvation is of God, because He is the Creator. BUT, God wants a free, loving relationship with His creation, not as robots. St John the Baptist said God could create rocks to worship Him. So God makes covenants with His creation. His creation concurs with the agreement. This is how grace works. God freely gives grace, and His creation freely accepts the grace so that God's Will continues by His grace. As Paul says, "The things I do is not I but God in me.". An ambassador agrees to represent and do the work for a head of state, not himself. As Jesus told St John the Baptist, "It is good to Fulfill all righteousness.".
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
@@headsofhiphop - John 17:12
“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”
Like many of you, I found this debate to be both fascinating and very thought provoking. As a former conservative evangelical, I was surprised to find Mr. Horn's argument so logical, well ordered and with a solid Biblical foundation. I can see from many comments that many of you felt the same...Which leaves some of you with something of a conundrum. How can the man who we know also holds to Mary as co-redeemer with Christ, Purgatory, and Transubstantiation among other doctrines, have a seemingly correct view on this topic? And if so, how does that impact the universally acknowledged "By Grace Alone, By Faith Alone" plan of salvation? While the essence of what Dr. White proposes is that we are all robots, some determined to glory without any input or participation in any way, shape or form. For those who may be interested, there is a third alternative which presents the gospel in a way that you probably have not heard before. If you might consider investing the time, you may see a gospel which is harmonious with both the Bible and itself. One which does not pit scripture against scripture nor does it have to force fit the natural understanding of passages so that they might comply with a theological model. Here is a forty second review of the TH-cam Channel which lays out this gospel step-by-step. It was unsolicited. I just happened to stumble upon it. Thank you. Grace and Peace to you. th-cam.com/video/0l2pIwbmAnEH/w-d-xo.htmlere is the link to the TH-cam Channel: th-cam.com/channels/db7ghP3lHTnpsuXUlFDBMw.htmlplaylistsIf you prefer podcasts, links to various podcasts are in the about section of each video.
@@herbshattuck6269 Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Ephesians 4:30 uses the prep. "εἰς", which here is much better translated as "for" or "against". It sets a goal not a duration of time. By the Holy Spirit we are sealed "for" or "against" the day of redemption. So we should not grieve the Spirit lest He leave us and we regress to our old self. Read also the earlier verses of the same passage. Stop distorting the Scriptures through your heretical misreadings and ignorance.
@@jamessheffield4173 This verse actually shows that there is no predetermination of the saved or the damned. If among these "many" there were ones who were never ever supposed to be chosen in the first place, why were they called in the first place? So these "few chosen" are those who respond. God foreknows all and everything as He lives beyond time-space. "Those whom He foreknew, these He also foreordained..." as St. Paul teaches in his Epistle to the Romans.
Trent Horn made me think my Son’s name in the future will be “Trent” Idol!!!
You can celebrate his birthday each year with a "Council" instead of a party! 😂
Trent exposed White on that even though Dr White claims that he is a Sola Scriptura, James added words to Jesus's words, in order to solidify his arguments. Dr White seemed to be answering questions Dr Trent didn't ask, but questions he perceived Dr Trent asked.
and he needs to Reformed words
Who also is confused on how Trent is confused about how some elects persevere while other elects don't.
its because election is not referring to predetermined saved people..election can view for individual service for Gods plan
Summary for those inquiring about this subject: 1) You are born again and scared if you live in sin (meaning you live however you want indulging in your sin-not repentant) that you were never “among them” or “really a Christian” because you believe in once saved always saved doctrine. Or, 2) you’re born again and believe you can loose your salvation; thus, you are scared as to when you are going to loose your salvation because you are perusing living in sin and disregard God’s word.
Recommendation: See how holy you can live and still operate on earth instead of how much sin you can get away with and still get into heaven.
You are saved by grace, not of yourself, but the Bible clearly warns us not to live in sin as it is very destructive. And if you are born again and hate holy living, how or why would God take you into heaven? You will hate it. And if you do love sin and don’t want to stop even though you are born again, ask God to change your heart and to give you a desire for righteousness living -he will!
Well said! What a blessing this was to read!
False as if it was true nobody would go to heaven. Creater is much more powerful than your thinking.
@@trafficjon400 The 1st and 2nd point is my subjective perspective - opinion, not doctrine, so it cannot be false because it’s my opinion. And my 3rd paragraph is clear and in line with your statement that God is powerful and we are only saved by grace. I think you’re misunderstanding the point here.
We should realize that even our sanctification (holy living) is the work of God, the Holy Spirit, in our lives ang our souls/spirits.
I am a catholic convert and I really tried to be as objective as possible, which can be hard at time. I thought both debaters brought up good arguments, but I simply could not follow the logic of Dr. James White. For me, It simply came down to this: (Example) If someone believed in Jesus, and followed him for a time, but then fell away after suffering, vice, or was simply led astray and never returned to Jesus, How would he have salvation? Is it not a copout to say "well, he was never really saved." In my own life, I have fallen away from the faith many times and the mercy of God continues to call me back, but its my decision to heed that call. Its my decision to persevere (with the grace of god). If I refused, how could my salvation be guaranteed? If Dr. White answered this, then I did not understand, at all. To me, it was very easy to understand the arguments presented by Trent Horn, while following the logic of Dr. White was difficult.. I felt like I would need to be a scholar to do so. Overall, a great debate, but this has simply reinforced my belief in catholic teachings on salvation. I admit, I am most likely biased, as I love my catholic faith. So these are just my thoughts. I was led to this after a long conversation with a Baptist friend, who has had a huge impact on my life and I believe that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, regardless of our theological differences. Thanks for reading and God Bless.
Define “fall away” are you outwardly rejecting the deity & justify work of Christ on the cross? Or just struggling with sins of the flesh? You say its your decision to persevere but what allowed that decision? Why do you decide to persevere & agree with God to follow after righteousness while the unsaved disagree? Were you always in agreement? Obviously not, so what changed? Gods Grace IS the catalyst in which you persevere. And so, God is the initiator & finisher of said Faith.
If you only know God in an intellectual way and have no real relationship and are not born again no heart change then yes you can fall away. But if one truly knows Jesus Christ He will never stray and if he gets lost the good shepherd will go after that one sheep. This is the difference. A true born again believer or a believer only in thought no heart change.
I'm closer to the Catholic teaching as well, but the way I understood James White is that you're not so much assured of your salvation, but rather, if you're saved i.e. "chosen by God" then you won't fall away, so it's God choosing to save you despite yourself. I think that kind of reasoning has a myriad of negative connotations in ourselves and society and it leads to be proudful and to boast by saying "My life is good and I follow God's teachings so I'm one of the chosen, and that other person who is poor or has an addiction has been abandoned by God, he's not chosen", which was one of the immediate effects of the spread of Calvinist ideas. But that's what he thinks, it's not "I'm saved so I can go commit the worst sin ever".
51:30
1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has seized you, except what is common to man. *And God is faithful* , who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but will also provide with the temptation the escape, to be able to endure it.
These debates between our Christian brothers shouldn't be about who won or who lost, but should be a reason to study our Bible more deeply. Both James White and Trent Horn are absolutely great debators, and have debated Non - Christians and continue to bring them to Christ.
Let's not forget to :-
Love the Lord our God and to Love your neighbours as ourselves.
Your a manipulater and many of you snakes .
@@Over-for-now Right thanks and it more fully explains why the Creater ignores so many today. though we have to move mountains would be impossible for us.
SEEMS MORE LIKE MAN MADE FEAR OF PEOPLE
@@Over-for-now I suggest you watch the debate between dr. White with dr. Brown against two lgbt pastors.
After that, will you think the same that it is about the finished work of Christ...
Those two lgbt pastors are professing Christ as their Lord and Savior. Thus claimed the already saved.
Someone said to me they (the lgbt pastors) haven't received the salvation in the first place because of their openly practizing what is forbidden... And cannot claim to be christians...
I suggest you meditate on Jesus' words: not everyone who call me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of God, but those who do the Will of my Father...
@@Over-for-now even unrepentance sinner??
I agree with White, in Hebrews it is Jesus who is sanctified according to fulfilling all righteousness and the writings of the law and Prophets.
What verse it is..I miss it..
So what does it mean. ?
Hebrews10:5-17;7:23-25; 4:1-3
Thought of the Day: Losing Salvation
Some people push a message of “you better watch out you could lose your salvation”. Let’s examine that.
What would cause you to lose salvation? Sin would.
So, if Jesus died for your sins, did it work? Of course it did! That answer alone should end the discussion.
Jesus didn’t just die for small sins or ones we rarely commit. He died for the big ones and the ones we struggle with too.
There’s not a single verse that actually ever mentions losing salvation. No. It’s just distorted theology. And you can bet it’s almost always from legalist angry Christians and talk more about fear of them they do the love of Christ.
Now, let’s talk about the word “eternal”.
God’s word tells us “whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall not perish, but will have eternal life”.
Eternal means without an end. That word is extremely important when we’re thinking about losing salvation.
In order to lose salvation it could not be eternal, otherwise it would in fact have an end At the very best it would be temporary or contingent salvation. Emerite come from we call that works based salvation.
And let’s take that word eternal a little deeper. Eternal doesn’t just mean without an end. It also means without a beginning.
But wait, you had a birthday so you must have a beginning. And that’s when we discover that eternal salvation is not your life prolonged. But rather it’s Jesus‘ life given to you. It’s his eternal life you receive.
And now it makes sense!
Anybody teaching a theology of losing salvation is teaching law based salvation. And it’s a lie from the evil one. On one side of their mouth they are saying we are saved by faith, on the other side of their mouth they are saying we maintain it by works. That’s double-talk.
If salvation were maintained by works then it wouldn’t be a gift. It wouldn’t be by faith. And that kind of teaching is no different than all the fake religions of the world. Fake religions that require you to earn salvation through human effort.
How to teach losing salvation is reject the grace of God. And if we could keep our salvation through human effort then why in the world did Jesus go to the cross?
[Galatians 2:21] “ I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness cane through the law then Christ died needlessly”.
That is correct, Calvinism is true.
Yes there are. .....many verses. ....???? Weren't you paying attention to the debate? ???
Very well put
Maybe im a simpleton but Jesus says, repent, obey my commandments, remain in me, believe....and then raises up from the dead and gives the holy spirit which makes me ABLE to BELEIVE, repent, obey his commandments, and remain in him..so I can take credit for my salvation and assurance of faith How????? ....im not calvinist but falling from grace is falling into works which is NOT REIMAINING IN Christ...thats a false faith and assurance, that is a works and law based "faith"...sadly this is taught everywhere and its so easy to teach law and works without realizing it because we do not consider THE WHOLE GOSPEL which is one of Grace, a mystery.
My pride kept me Catholic too long, thankfully God gave me grace to run from it!
◄ Matthew 23:37 ►
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
To me, from this verse. God wants all to be saved and he longs for us to be saved, yet, people are unwilling in their “free will” Just as people can be saved and lose their salvation by their free will to not do or obey God’s will.
Like many of you, I found this debate to be both fascinating and very thought provoking. As a former conservative evangelical, I was surprised to find Mr. Horn's argument so logical, well ordered and with a solid Biblical foundation. I can see from many comments that many of you felt the same...Which leaves some of you with something of a conundrum. How can the man who we know also holds to Mary as co-redeemer with Christ, Purgatory, and Transubstantiation among other doctrines, have a seemingly correct view on this topic? And if so, how does that impact the universally acknowledged "By Grace Alone, By Faith Alone" plan of salvation? While the essence of what Dr. White proposes is that we are all robots, some determined to glory without any input or participation in any way, shape or form. For those who may be interested, there is a third alternative which presents the gospel in a way that you probably have not heard before. If you might consider investing the time, you may see a gospel which is harmonious with both the Bible and itself. One which does not pit scripture against scripture nor does it have to force fit the natural understanding of passages so that they might comply with a theological model. Here is a forty second review of the TH-cam Channel which lays out this gospel step-by-step. It was unsolicited. I just happened to stumble upon it. Thank you. Grace and Peace to you. th-cam.com/video/0l2pIwbmAnEH/w-d-xo.htmlere is the link to the TH-cam Channel: th-cam.com/channels/db7ghP3lHTnpsuXUlFDBMw.htmlplaylistsIf you prefer podcasts, links to various podcasts are in the about section of each video.
As a child I believed that the Bible was the word of God and that Jesus was my savior .In 1988 I was drinking a fifth of alcohol a day . I knew that there was more to life than I realized but I didn't know what it was . I had a wonderful girlfriend , we raced motorcycles , we went to bluegrass festivals and did whatever we wanted to do . I realized that I had everything the world said was happiness but I felt something important was missing and I didn't know what it was. I tried scientology , all kinds of yoga, martial arts and various other disciplines but nothing satisfied me . One Sunday morning I came home drunk in a taxicab and waiting outside of my house was a man who was giving my roommate a ride to church. I had gone to alcoholics anonymous for six months and they helped me a lot but I had gone back to drinking .He invited me to sit in his car and talk. He asked me if I wanted a bible study. I said I would love to have a bible study . He came on Monday nights the only night of the week that I didn't drink. It was a 12 week bible study that went from Genesis to Revelation. He showed me in the book of Acts ( Acts 2:38 ) where it said repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost . I said I'd never seen that in the bible and I wanted to get baptized in Jesus' name and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. I got baptized in Jesus' name and prayed for two months to get the Holy Ghost. The night that I got the Holy Ghost I was praying and I started to talk in tongues , I felt wonderful and GOD delivered me from the spirit of alcohol . I have never wanted to drink since then and I praise GOD for that.
. The man who gave me the twelve week bible study taught me a ' GODHEAD ' bible study twice but i didn't understand the oneness of God or the trinity . I was reading the bible one day and read Ephesians 4 : 5-6 that i had previously highlighted in my bible . God gave me the revelation of oneness . ' ONE LORD , ONE FAITH , ONE BAPTISM , ONE GOD AND FATHER OF ALL , WHO IS ABOVE ALL , AND THROUGH ALL ,AND IN YOU ALL !
JOHN 3:16 IS JUST ONE VERSE : YOU NEED TO READ ALL OF CHAPTER THREE TO UNDERSTAND JESUS' PLAN OF SALVATION !
I was a believer from childhood but i wasn't saved .THANK YOU FOR READING THIS !
One does not need to pray to get the Holy Spirit. That is foolishness ...
Acts 10 44-48 what convinced the Jewish believers, which didn't believe that gentiles could receive the Holy Spirit, that the gentile house of Cornelius had received the Holy Spirit? What is the initial evidence that a person has recieved the Holy Spirit?
Trent Horn demolished Dr. White... But to answer John 6:37 and John 6:44, I'm actually really surprised that Trent Horn never mentioned John 6:45...
John 6:37 says nothing about the individual being unable to leave Jesus, but only that *_Jesus_** will not cast them out* . We agree. Like sheep we may come to Jesus, but the sheep also go astray of their own accord and cast themselves out, and the Shepherd goes out to find them (Matthew 18:12-14). But both John 6:37 and especially John 6:44 are resolved with context--like when Trent destroyed James' interpretation of Romans 4:8 when we learned from Psalm 32 that he was not imputed sin because he confessed his sins.
In John 6:45, Jesus clarified that yes, faith is a supernatural gift from God and from God alone (Catholics believe this, and Trent mentioned so). Belief in Jesus requires instruction from the Father, _but_ it is *the one that has heard **_and learned_* from the Father that comes to Jesus. It is possible for the Father to draw us, but still that we *do not **_listen and learn_* . Learning requires the consent of the will. A person that does not desire to learn will not learn. You can bring a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.
John 6:45 (ASV)
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, *and hath learned* , cometh unto me.
John 6:45 (NIV)
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father *and learned* from him comes to me.
47:49
Romans 5:1 ►
Therefore, since we (have been justified) through (faith), we (have peace) with God (through) our Lord (Jesus Christ),
Romans 6:14- For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
So, you don’t sin?
@@s.kucerka that's not what that chapter means: wages of sin is Death under Moses law, but by Grace who is Jesus you are gifted eternal life. As Jesus has dominion over All.
This be why Jesus is the only way.
37:32 the death blow to James White
Jesus Christ Saves 100% agree. His response is just foolish blabbering
Death blow indeed.
Scripture translates scripture
Like diamond cuts diamond
If you can fall from Grace
Ie. lose your salvation
Then your immediately calling God a liar
Because he said he will lose none
Not only are you in the fathers hands but also in the Sons
Your theology has to come through a harmonization of ALL scripture
If your view on a scripture doesn’t fit the rest of the scripture
Your view is unbiblical
Mark Luna
That verse doesn’t say you can’t lose your salvation. All the scripture says is God will lose none that trust in him. Now when you say I’m a liar because I said you can fall from grace, see what scripture says;
“Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”
Galatians 5:4 KJV
Jesus Christ Saves
Just because it doesn’t say it
Doesn’t meant it doesn’t mean
It’s called the rule of exclusivity
Just like Jesus himself didn’t say homosexuality is a sin
But we know by what he did say about marriage being only between a man and a woman that homosexuality is not God honoring
I wasn’t say you specifically were calling God a liar
I was speaking generally
Do you know what it meant to be circumcised
You were taking a seal to live under the law
Which meant you were no longer under grace
Because by putting yourself under the law you were required to live according to it to appease God which is what Jews had before Christ’s atonement
After the fulfillment of the law by christ
We who believe are now under grace
Remember God knew the one who would deny knowing him 3 times before hand
He knows those to endure until the end ,to receive his salvation. He will give them the heart to endure to the end
I just realized something very powerful:
WE DON'T HAVE TO SIN!!!
God gives us the Power to do his will.
I've been a Christian for many years and only now SEE that sin has no power over me.
If we sin it is by choice..whereas before we were what Paul called "slaves" to sin.
We arent merely forgiven..RATHER WE HAVE BEEN SET FREE
Yep. Some of the osas camps teach that jesus can set u free of sin. White agrees.
They both agree commandment keeping is required for salvation
I am curious what you think about inaction vs action. Obviously if you think a bad thing then you sin, but what about lack of action? As in lack of loving your neighbor and not interacting with other people enough, serving enough, etc. when you have the opportunity?
This debate made me appreciate what a great teacher was Jesus even more. Honestly, I did not understand most of what either side was saying with all the academic jargon and using quotes from other theologians. Jesus on the other hand, spoke in parables that connected with his audience and made his message very clear. Praise God!
?
Jesus said specifically he use parables so people wouldn't understand
@@BobskiSportsNetwork The unbelievers would not understand, the believers do.
@@BobskiSportsNetwork you must be misinterpreting Matthew, it says the unbelievers will not understand
U right, just praise god, jesus was sent to teach human to praise no one only god, thats all
I don't think that either debater did a very good job. They both sounded educated, but got lost in translation. I think that Jesus makes an amazing statement in John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life." Jesus used present tense and then past tense. Those who believe "does not come into judgment." We will not be judged. Past tense "has passed out of death into life." Doesn't Jesus know that we will sin tomorrow, next week, next month in word, thought or action? In Eph. 1:13 "In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise." Can one break that seal?
In Ga. 5:4 mentions "severed...falling from grace." The Greek word for "severed," is better translated, "nullify," or "done away with." "Falling away," can mean from a previously held position. And the statement is not "falling away from salvation," but "falling from grace." Plus in the context, Paul is presenting a truth that "...every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole law." His point being that a believer who chooses to rely on circumcision acts as if Christ's sacrifice means nothing.
John writes, "These things I have written to you who believe in the Name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life" (1 John 5:13). How can we have the "peace that passes understanding," how can we celebrate with great gladness when we're not even sure if we're saved?
The comment is made that we have to look at our life morally to see if we qualify for salvation, but shouldn't our trust be in Jesus' perfect sacrifice rather than our works?
Where do we read in the Scripture of someone being born again, again, and again? How does one become a family member, then they're not, then they are. Is our body the revolving door for the Holy Spirit, so that when we fall, He leaves, when we come back, He enters, and when we fall, He leaves...is this biblical?
If we can never be sure of our salvation, aren't we putting the burden of proof on us and not on Jesus? Ultimately, don't we begin to put more value on our obedience than Jesus' sacrifice?
One of the biggest problems with this confusion is the inability to tell the difference between passages on fellowship and rewards against eternal destiny.
I agree with all you said. I have a problem though. I'm in no way a Biblecritic and also i don't believe my assumption to be true. But for me it sounds like the Bible kind of contradicts itself. I know it's just my poor reading of scripture but for me it sounds like a Christian can fall out of salvation and at the time not fal out of salvation.
@@pyramusk3264
They dont fall out of Salvation they were never saved in the first place
Wrong. James White nailed it. You're probably a salty Leighton Flowers Arminian.
@@pyramusk3264 the Bible "sounds like it contradicts itself" in the doctrine of the Trinity, as well. As believers, we assume a predisposition of Biblical inerrancy, so if it sounds like a contradiction, the error is within us, rather than God's Word.
@@rickstark85 I agree. Totally.
People who believes that persevering until the end through your efforts makes you in the end keeps your salvation, will come out boastful in the end in front of God.
Hebrews shows those people are like the Jews they have not come into God's rest
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference.
That's not in the Bible.
@@me73941 that is a quote from st. Francis of Assisi.
James white: if I don’t understand then it’s not understandable
It was Trent Horn who said that.
He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. I agree with Dr James White what he shared is biblical.
E. N. Please explain Revelation 22:18-19 then.
If someone added to the book or take away from the book they weren't saved the holy spirit would not add or take away his words thus they are subjected to the plagues and are removed from the book holy spirit will not guide you to make him a liar.
Where does it say that? Where does it say the person who changes the book isn’t saved? It doesn’t say that.
@@jandrew86 Revelation 22 18:19 God shall take away his part in the book of Life and from the holy city. So with basic understanding you were not saved beause if you taken away from the book your going to the lake fire does that make sense you never had the spirit in you.
E. N.
Unless a person does not remain in Christ and departs from the faith
Trent won the first half of the debate White won the 2nd half. Overall I think Trent made the stronger case and is correct.
You can't lose your salvation. Consider this:
• Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I 𝙙𝙚𝙘𝙡𝙖𝙧𝙚 𝙩𝙤 𝙩𝙝𝙚𝙢, ‘𝙄 𝙉𝙀𝙑𝙀𝙍 𝙆𝙉𝙀𝙒 𝙔𝙊𝙐; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness."
Notice He says "𝙄 𝙉𝙀𝙑𝙀𝙍 𝙆𝙉𝙀𝙒 𝙔𝙊𝙐" in this text. What does Jesus say about His sheep who He Saved?
• John 10:27-30 "My sheep hear My voice, and I "𝙆𝙉𝙊𝙒" them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will 𝙉𝙀𝙑𝙀𝙍 𝙋𝙀𝙍𝙄𝙎𝙃; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."
Jesus claims that He"knows" His sheep and He gives them eternal life and they'll never perish.
May the sheep always hear his voice!
I think the word "never" in Matthew 7:23 is synonymous with the word "not at all" not that He meant it that at some point he never used knowing them. Also, even if we grant that, it actually does not prove the Perseverance of the Saints/OSAS since that passage talks about false converts that are never saved, to begin with, because they assume that their good works save them as verse 22 says "many will say unto Me on that day, Lord Lord, Have we not prophesy in thy name in thy name and in thy cast out devils and in thy name done many wonderful works?". The verse specifically addresses false prophets who think they are justified by the works of the Law. So both definitions of the word "never" from that verse, we cannot draw proof that it tells us that we can never forfeit that grace.
John 10 talks about sheep that Jesus knows since they are justified by grace through faith as He gives them eternal life and by their continual following to Jesus made them unperishable that is why He said they shall never perish as Jesus promised that by their abiding in Christ there is no condemnation for them. In the same way with this logic, if you cease deliberately eating sugar you will never get diabetes. John 10 promises that Jesus will not allow those who are His to perish who remain in Him, He is promising an everlasting redemption to those who abide in Him telling everyone that His atonement infallibly satisfies God's wrath and the sinner is set free from that condemnation. No MAN can pluck out believers from His hands, it simply means that no man can condemn those who are in Christ Jesus like false prophets that is the promise it tells because the context of John 10 speaks about people who follow Him unfollows those who are not with Christ.
John 10:1-5 KJV
10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
If God gives gifts based on what a person does, then it is not a gift, but payment.
Have you never given anyone a gift as a result of a favor done for you? Like many of you, I found this debate to be both fascinating and very thought provoking. As a former conservative evangelical, I was surprised to find Mr. Horn's argument so logical, well ordered and with a solid Biblical foundation. I can see from many comments that many of you felt the same...Which leaves some of you with something of a conundrum. How can the man who we know also holds to Mary as co-redeemer with Christ, Purgatory, and Transubstantiation among other doctrines, have a seemingly correct view on this topic? And if so, how does that impact the universally acknowledged "By Grace Alone, By Faith Alone" plan of salvation? While the essence of what Dr. White proposes is that we are all robots, some determined to glory without any input or participation in any way, shape or form. For those who may be interested, there is a third alternative which presents the gospel in a way that you probably have not heard before. If you might consider investing the time, you may see a gospel which is harmonious with both the Bible and itself. One which does not pit scripture against scripture nor does it have to force fit the natural understanding of passages so that they might comply with a theological model. Here is a forty second review of the TH-cam Channel which lays out this gospel step-by-step. It was unsolicited. I just happened to stumble upon it. Thank you. Grace and Peace to you. th-cam.com/video/0l2pIwbmAnEH/w-d-xo.htmlere is the link to the TH-cam Channel: th-cam.com/channels/db7ghP3lHTnpsuXUlFDBMw.htmlplaylistsIf you prefer podcasts, links to various podcasts are in the about section of each video.
My hope is built on nothing less than JESUS'S blood and RIGHTEOUSNESS
Amen. I only Trust Jesus Christ in Everything.
White clearly said in thr beginnig that obedience is required
I'm so grateful for this. I was having a discussion with someone in my church about this and I thought I was alone because even our pastor said salvation can't be lost ever and all are saved but here Trent understands my perspective. Also, orbits 29:59-30:04! :D
Perhaps you do not understand Deuteronomy 9:5? You are now boasting in your own ability to obtain righteousness which is why God will include you in His kingdom. This is precisely what Trent is telling you - God looking into the future and seeing who it is that will seek Him. Is that what Psalm 53:1-3 says?
What does it mean in Romans 3:21 that a righteousness from God is required in order to be saved???
Trent has it wrong in how one gets saved in the first place. Don't fall into the same trap.
@Haili Williams your not boasting he is and Creater will deal with it.
@@trafficjon400 You are leading her up the garden path....
If anyone claims that s/he sought out God of their own free will they are contradicting the bible where it clearly states: "There is no one that seeks after God, no not even one!"
Or where it states: "Unless the Lord has left us a remnant..."
Or where it states: "If you, LORD, kept a record of sins, Lord, who could stand?"
IT is GOD who takes the initiative to drag people to Jesus so that they will eventually get to believe. If you claim that their salvation is their own doing then indeed it can be lost because it never was!!!! How can one be born again of one's own accord? That is the question that you and Haili Williams have to answer for yourselves.
@@kevinrtres Right you tell your self that? we can hold faith till dementia sets in being nothing but a veggie at the end for what does a long lasting preacher of God scripture prove to others who want or Gods seeks but becomes a vegetable sounds like an honnest christian gets a slap in the face after all the things God Scripture was done becoming a remant Vegetable. Every christian i watched die has become this from teaching the scripture and warning about sin and then become the living dead beings loving christians of the scriptures. searching scripture truth on you tube or any where else seeing facts and nothing else . Selma alabama my beloved 88 years Stricked Christian mother father and Selma is full of Christians churches every body holding the torture of God only till agony death is the cruelist way to be LOVING CARING. Wiped out by an EF4 TORNADO yesterday and can't reach them . we are spects of dust to God and evil TRASH WE ARE TASH FOR 1000S AND MORE 1000s for all we know God keeps us in no matter how Good we are we are TRASH... AND SEARCH TRUTH AND BECOME ATHEIST IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN SO DON'T TRY SEARCHING FOR IT. I'll stay away from truth otherwise insanity awaits or if your strong enough to bare it till death would it do any good to think we came from nothing and no i don't see how it could..
You are spot on, salvation can be lost if one does not continue to abide in Christ, like John 15:1-6 correctly teach.
Might want to check out Abide in the Word yt channel, he has some good teachings, but how can I put this, sometimes he can be... a bit radical maybe? Kerrigan Skelly is also good.
A question for you!
We read this two passages first in:
Act 27:22-25
22 And yet now I urge you to keep up your courage, for there will be no loss of life among you, but only of the ship. 23 For this very night an angel of the God to whom I belong, whom I also serve, came to me, 24 saying, ‘Do not be afraid, Paul; you must stand before Caesar; and behold, God has graciously granted you all those who are sailing with you.’ 25 Therefore, keep up your courage, men, for I believe God that [n]it will turn out exactly as I have been told.
and
Act 27:30-32
30 But as the sailors were trying to escape from the ship and had let down the ship’s boat into the sea, on the pretense that they were going to lay out anchors from the bow, 31 Paul said to the centurion and the soldiers, “Unless these men remain on the ship, you yourselves cannot be saved.” 32 Then the soldiers cut away the ropes of the ship’s boat and let it fall away.
The question:
Paul was told from the Angel, that everyone will be saved and no one will die. (could this propheci from the Angel fail?)
Then we read that paul gives a warning in V.31 " “Unless these men remain on the ship, you yourselves cannot be saved.” (why, he knew that no one will die ?)
We see exactly here what the warnings are all about in scripture!
Example:
God gave Jesus a people John 6:37-44 and he will lose non of them(because he came down from heaven to do the will of the Father). Those people are indentified in John 10 as the sheep of the Lord Jesus John 10:29 and Jesus say´s that his shep hear his voice, and they follow him, and he knows them and he gives them eternal life and they will never perish in eternity and no one will pluck them out of his Hands John 10:27-28
So a sheep of the Lord WILL hear His voice and FOLLOW him until the end, because they will never perish as we read.
If someone claims to be a christian and we see him following the Lord Jesus, but then he leaves the faith, he was never his sheep, because he 1) did not FOLLOW the Lord (wasn´t a real diciple, because did not stay in his word/teaching John 8:31) and 2) will perish for ever, because he never was his sheep. That´s the point of 1 John 2:19
So we can affirm both, the warnings are real, but we know that no one given by the father to the Son, those are the sheep of the Lord Jesus, will ever perish in eternity.
“Works are of filthy rags” literal meaning of menstrual rags. Like James, if my salvation has anything to do with my intervention and some kind of covenant of works I must do, I’m DOOMED....
That is before the New Covenant You're literally quoting Isaiah. It is Christ which make our works good. What an absolute butchering of the Bible.
@@eternalbyzantium262 agree..Jesus says come to me all that are heavey and laden and I will give you rest..If we are so filthy Jesus wouldnt tell us to come. God is a God of second third forth........chances.
@@eternalbyzantium262wrong!!
God sent Jesus Christ so we can be assured as believers of our salvation.
He sent Jesus Christ to save us.
To be so caught up with how others can either gain or fall from grace is a mistake. 1) because "grace" is by definition a gift … not something one can earn, therefore not something one can "fall" from. "Falling from grace" is a contradiction of thought. 2) We are to love others as we have been loved (John 15:12). We are not here to judge each other or charge each other, not here to sentence anyone. We have to focus on ourselves, taking the plank out of your own eye (Matthew 7:5). So it's a waste of time to even study the concept of falling from grace. It's like appraising your sin to see what negative value it has. A measure of iniquity. Thankfully, Jesus took upon himself the iniquity for all of mankind (John 1:29, 1John 3:5, 1Peter 2:24).
*If there's one thing a true Christian must come to practice, value, and cherish, is humility. As a JW I never practiced it because I was taught we had "the truth." Mr. Horn should be humble and come to accept that he is wrong and admit it. @**3:40** He wouldn't even admit that Judas was prophesied (in the OT) to be our Lord's traitor and therefore, Jesus specifically chose him to just carry out what he was going to do anyway! Judas had freewill and it was his choice in coming to betray Jesus. He was not made to betray him by being picked as one of the twelve. Just like Jesus knowing the death that awaited him, he had also already "seen" that he would die on the cross but his killers could have not chosen to do it. God can look down the corridor of time and "see" what we will do but not "cause" us to do it.*
this is so sad when you categorized sin...but the bible said that ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IS SIN...If we based our salvation on the ability of man then theres no chance for us to enter the kingdom.i'd stick to what the Bible said that salvation is based on Christ not by my works,not about laws,traditions.
Well it was the Apostle John himself who categorized sin, so... you know... it’s actually the word of God itself that did that.
Then u disagree with white also. They both agree that commandment keeping is required
The person who won this debate is subject to the presuppositions that you have watching it and your own understanding of scripture.
Protestants (like me) feel we understand the scriptures mentioned in context and with deeper understanding, so naturally, James White won.
However, Catholics that watch bring their own set of presuppositions, so naturally Trent Horn won.
I doubt that the debate will change many minds but it is useful to strengthen your own beliefs and be able to defend them.
All in all...an excellent debate.
Jason Mahurin that isn't what a debate is for. The aim of debates is to hear the best possible presentation of both sides, in order to work out which side is correct.
It may help to write the points given by both sides down and weigh them up. The cross-examinations are useful for this also.
And you know what, I do think God uses debates like this to open people's minds and cause them to read further. I hope more Catholic vs Protestant debates come about, because this is so important. We have very old videos with Mitch Pacwa and the like, but I encourage newer ones to help people see how this is still relevant. A lot of my Catholic friends just are not aware of the clear problems with their theology, and they look up to people like Horn if they ever are unsure about Catholic theology. I know that if they were to sit and think through what was said in this debate, it would shake them.
SamOwenI I have no doubt that God can use debates to change hearts and minds. In fact, debates were one of the things that helped me come to Christ, but I watched with an open mind and a curiosity that I now know is from God dealing with me.
I would not be surprised if there are those who do come to truth after hearing it presented against their own false theology but that happens not with a debate alone but with the Holy Spirit.
I still believe the vast majority will enjoy watching this debate from their own perspectives and claim their own guy as the victor. Our minds do not change easily, especially on matters of faith.
Keep reading the comments on the this debate (both parts) and see how many people claim to have changed their mind. Notice those who feel Trent Horn won were already Catholic or Arminian and those feel Dr White won were already reformed Protestants.
Still, you're right, God can use it and I didn't mean to sound like it can't be used to bring the knowledge of the truth.
Jason Mahurin well put buddy
White never answers the questions without outting his own personal objection first without scripture
@Kwok Wai Lai how much do I need to do to earn God's grace? How good do I need to be to "deserve" it?
I side with Dr. White, but Trent was very articulate and respectable here. Kudos to him on doing a nice job.
What a pleasure was it to watch this debate! What a huge difference between Trent Horn and Sungenis!
54:10 Whote keeps using the phrase “perfect enough”. What he is trying to propose is that “i can do nothing to the level that Christ did it so it is not important for me to do it at all”. To hold any other position makes his use of the phrase merely an exaggeration meant to trick the last person into agreement because of the understood fact that only God is perfect.
The lengths James White and other reformed individuals must go to make simple verses fit their systematic theology shows that they are starting with an extra-biblical teaching. This debate gives me confidence that my confusion with Calvinism is justified.
@15:36
Here is the difference between the sins you speak of.
1 Corinthians 6:18
Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.
The question I would ask Trent is,do you fear losing your salvation?
I would think Trent has lost his salvation many times. The Catholic Church teaches one mortal sin you commit you lost your salvation
muslims don't fear losing their salvation, whatever they do, because they have the notion that there will be a temporary stay in hell for those muslims that were sinners... do you want to become muslim?
As Catholics we have a *Sacrament* called of Reconciliation. Cheers and God Bless.
Kudos to Trent Horn!
Trent Horn. You are right all the way! And there is nothing to add when this is so clear. The problem in the end is following the Bible, or, as Dr. White has done, follow your theology, despite the Bible. God Bless
Did you read your bible? How does one get born again? What does it mean to be born again? What does it mean to enter into grace and then fall out of grace? Is it the same as being born again? If entering into grace is the same as being born again then what Trent Horn is saying is that one get born again, throws it away ( falls out of grace ) and then of their own accord gets born again when they enter grace again...etc...etc...etc.....??? Right????
@@kevinrtres Ypu want to make being born again what it is not. Bieng born again simply means being saved.. Your calvinist lens of looking at being born again is what you are using to get someone to believe your point, but that poin will be only be valid if everyone buys into your version of born again. Bieng born again is being saved. It is when you join the family of Christ that you are born again, and that is salvation. Again take off the calvinist lens and read the Bible simply for yourself
@@stonykalangoministries It is impossible for a Catholic to read the Bible for themselves. Remove your beam first.
@@stonykalangoministries OK, so what does it mean to be saved?
By the way - why do you think Jesus used that analogy - the imagery that shows the one being born again contributes absolutely nothing to the process?
So if the one being born again cannot contribute then just who does all the contribution?
What part does the "DEAD in sins and trespasses" person play in being raised from spiritual DEATH?
So - again - just what does it mean to be saved??? To be saved in real, physical life sounds to me like someone who is unable to help themselves in a dangerous situation - and hence that person needs to be RESCUED, e.g. SAVED from whatever is looming!
So - again - just what does it mean to be saved spiritually?
Trent Horn continually thinks of what a person has to do to be saved, and then to what a person has to do once they fall away to get back in to the grace of God. White , on the contrary, thinks of God's saving completely those He calls.
John 8:31-32. Key word is continue. If become careless, sin willfully and die in that condition before repentance. Calvinism will not avail.
Acts 2:37-38
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” And Peter said unto them, “Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
I feel G.K. Chesterton can easily debunk James white with simple reasoning.
How so?
Explain
Cat got your tongue eddie?
@@WalkingRoscoe bottom line: White and other Protestants have created this ridiculous distinction between the “descriptive” and “prescriptive” sense of scripture …. It’s an entirely bankrupt hermeneutical-exegetical practice that is necessary to deny the plain sense of scripture which clearly teaches (as the Catholic Church does) that man has moral agency enough to resist grace lose his salvation and that God desires all to be saved. also, Hebrews 6 is clear that apostasy is real. The apostle Paul described our lives as “running a race to the end” and absolutely believed we could fall. and there will be a final judgment we can all agree. It’s a mystery along with John 6 (more mystery) that teaches the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. and John 23 onward that clearly teaches Christ began his Church with the apostles and specifically Peter who could bind and forgive sin … Christ’s church and the Councils and oral tradition lasted for 400 years prior to the arrival of the NT …. The church fathers during that time established the trinity, condemned heresy like Pelagianism ,,, and dies as martyrs. This is where Chesterton began with the logic of scripture and history. If you’re interested, read Chesterton ….
@@democratpro see response below
It is mankind who causes so much confusion and causes people to doubt which brings fear
Seek your salvation with fear and trembling
They are very good debaters. Well organized. Well orderly. I'm on the side of Pastor Trent Horn
He is not a pastor, he is a man against the Gospel.
Maxamilian Man He is absolutely correct. Salvation only comes through a saving faith that has works. A faith without works is dead.
I dont believe Trent. I believe Jesus.
"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you. I will take your heart of stone and give you an heart of flesh. And I will put a new spirit within you and cause you to walk in my statutes and you will keep my judgments and do them."- Jesus
@@bustercollins5215 Don't add your works to the works of God. Salvation is God given gift to mankind
Maxamilian Man you’re a moron
Great presentation, very Biblical statement Dr. White. I like it. May God continue to bless you more!
the snag is, what makes James White think he's among the predestined 'elect'? someone like him could easily be in the other camp for all he knows
@@blackfalkon4189 what makes him know is he knows Jesus Christ. He is born of the spirit.
@@elsablue3646 it's nice to know that only some of us are predestined and other of use which can be you and me are destined to hell. You can't say you are predestined to enternal life in Jesus by the simple fact that you don't know the future. If you happen to fall according to White means you never were on the same path to began with and possibly never to be on that path.
@@abandonrz no i know i am going to heaven because I know Jesus Christ and I am His. That does not change.
@@abandonrz you can know Jesus Christ too and be sure of heaven. Its a free gift from God !
I don’t think that you can “lose” your salvation, but certainly a person can throw it away. And I am sure they can come back to it again, with God’s grace.
Agreed
Yes like the parable of the prodigal Son
Then they were never actually saved Jesus in John 6 and John 10 says you cannot lose your salvation. John in 1 John 2 says if they do walk away they were never saved any way Hebrews 3 says the same thing
@CJ P. are you Roman Catholic?
You phrasing it a different way is a distinction without a difference.
*throwing it away* results in losing possession of that which u once have. And that will never be the case for true believers
Neither addressed the issue of man's ability to come to Christ. John 6:44 "No man 'can' come..." The verb can says nothing about freedom of choice. Man has choice. The issue is ability. Genesis teaches man became dead spiritually in the fall. Paul affirms this in Eph 1 "dead in trespasses" indicating man has no ability to choose Christ nor come to Christ apart from the work of God. I enjoyed the debate and think Dr. Whites use of scripture in his argument was more compelling.
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6:44, ESV) yes sir.
Wow Mr. horn is awesome. perhaps eternal security believers over analyze things.
Yeah, because we treat the Bible as a whole (Total Scriptura) with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Reading a text without analyzing the context may cause misinterpretation. To sum it up the reason why I believe in eternal security is because Jesus had said it and the reason why their are warnings is to reveal to us who are the real Christians.
@@systemguy0110 amen brother
@CJ P. ummm catholicism is one of the denominations lol...
The result of salvation is a New Creature; created In Christ in righteousness and true holiness. This New Creation cannot be uncreated. He is born of God of incorruptible seed which remains in him, neither can he sin because he's born of God In Christ. 1 John 3:9, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Ephesians 2:10, 4:24
Dr. White nailed it in his last statement. God bless Dr. James White
He nailed himself. Their are many bible references that has to be removed before calvinism can be truly biblical. The belief that other biblical views are erroneous is myopic.
Hardly
You are hardly nailed in mind
@@farcornersbiblicalseminary9235 shouldn't you be out on a ledge somewhere
James White clearly lost this debate. As Trent said, James theology is driving his misreading of the Bible, rather than letting the Bible verses speak for themselves. The evidence is overwhelming. If Judas the apostle can lose his salvation by abandoning Christ, then we can too...
Perfect example the thief at the cross was given the gift of salvation without no works and didn't even need the gift of perseverance. saved by grace alone. Today thou shalt be with me in paradise. love it!
Yes because the bridegroom was still present. It is a very different scenario when the bridegroom is away and that is when you fast. So your alleged perfect example regarding the thief at the cross is false and not applicable anymore.
Have you studied the thieves on the cross or are you simply posing an argument for a free pass into the kingdom? It is a very typical go-to verse used in attempts to formulate an entire theology around a unique event. When I asked if you had studied the thieves from the Bible, I did so because if you had you would have discovered a very interesting sequence of events. We are told in John that there were three men being crucified that day. Two thieves with Jesus in between. We are told in each of the synoptic gospels that as the Jews and the Romans were mocking Jesus, so were BOTH of the thieves. Mt. 27:44 tells us that the they were both insulting Jesus in the same way. So they were mocking Him for being a King and saying, "Why don't you save yourself and us!?" Ha Ha. But as the hours passed and they observed the Son of Man, he did not cast aspersions back to His tormentors. Instead, He asked God to forgive them! He cried out to God. He took care of His mother. He moved the heart of some of the most hardened of that day. Even the centurion on duty concluded that this Man was surely the Son of God. And one of the thieves was moved as well. We see evidence of repentance and taking a stand for what he came to believe. When you read Luke's account you will see a man who went from a life of crime and crassly insulting Jesus to a man who rebuked his fellow thief for doing what he had also done just hours before. He admitted his sinfulness. He did not demand or even ask for exoneration or even freedom. He acknowledged his guilt and his punishment. And then he defended the innocence of Jesus. NOTHING YOU SAY? And then he turned to the Man which was considered a joke by all and begged for mercy. Nothing? He did all that he could possibly do given his circumstances and his understanding. Are you doing all you can do for the Lord? So because he was about to die tied to a cross prevented him from being baptized or helping the poor or whatever else you think we might propose is a requirement or obligation, do you think God the Righteous Judge will condemn this man for something which was impossible for him to ever do? So now should we compose an entire theology around the example of the thief on the cross? And feel comfortable following his example which should be the universally applied standard? Are you really going to point to him as your excuse for DOING NOTHING? If you are, you are not going to at all like how Jesus will respond to you. Please go back and study for yourself so that you will be prepared to give a proper response when tested.
He didnt have the opportunity to keep commandments. Both trent and white agree that obedience is required
A little late to the party but I am having a hard time rationalizing how people are being awed by Mr. Horn. He literally was backed into a theological corner and had to construct a new subgroup of Christians that God extended grace too and denied the gift of perseverance too, but suggests he rather gives the aforementioned gift to the elect he afore knew would persevere regardless. All doctrinal positions are maintained by their respective devotees by taking the prescriptive/descriptive approach which is obviously going to be altered by the individuals predispositions but the real battle is whose theological construct can pack the rest of the text. I just can’t accept the preposition of God, allowing the indwelling of the Holy Spirit into the vessel of an individual he foreknows will not remain in grace. Obviously Mr. Horn does in fact believe in the perseverance of the elect saints God foreknew, but because of his theological presuppositions believes that this intermediary group of people who received grace were not of the same group predestined to becoming more like Christ by the sanctification of the Holy Spirit?
There’s enough Biblical evidence to support the Catholic Church view on this. Anyone can be a believer but it takes a person of real moral courage to be an actual follower. They know we are Christians by our actions. Actions absolutely matter.
I am saddened for all Catholics who believe they must work to earn their way into heaven. God help them.
Saying we can lose our salvation is believing that our sin is greater than Christ’s work on the cross. That’s blasphemous.
No one is saying that sin is greater than the works of Christ but Christ himself said he would separate the goats from the sheep based on what they did in this life.
Matthew 7:21-23 The True Disciple.21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven,* but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.n22Many will say to me on that day,o ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’p23Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you.* Depart from me, you evildoers.’q
No. He who endures to the end will be saved. God can blot a person's name out the book of life (you'll find that in revelation) wise and foolish virgins. Lord Lord didn't we cast out demons and do all these things in your name? Depart from me I never knew you. Verses like that destroy your argument.
Mountaineer For Jesus it actually doesn’t say that at all.
I watched this 5 years ago as a new Calvinist and was with Dr. White all the way but I felt that Trent did a decent job defending his position. Here we are 5 years later, still a Calvinist and still agree here with JW. Only difference is I’m now able to see that Trent is all over the place and is confusing.
Interessting 👍
It's pretty obvious why you would see it that way.
@@teth-adamIt's probably the fact that Trent horns doctrine is contradicting on all fronts. He won part one of the debate but part two really shows that he doesn't understand what a shepard is. Hilariously Shepard's of ancient times would break their sheep's legs if they wouldn't follow them and then pick them up and carry them.
@@JustATanneriteDummy wow that is so interesting to learn that
Exactly!
Grace is given so that You can workout Your salvation.
With fear n trembling
Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Meloy Gargallano
It doesn’t say yourself. A person can separate themselves.
@@jesuschristsaves9067 When I placed my faith in HIm, a Fatherson relationship was built. No one can nullify it. I might deny that my earthly father is my father because I did something greatly wrong (which I think His grace is greater than my sins where when my sin abounds his grace did much more abound Rom. 5:20), but the fact remains that I am a child of my father. we share the same blood and DNA.
Nothing can remove a Christian from God’s hand (John 10:28-29). God guarantees eternal life and maintains the salvation He has given us. The Good Shepherd searches for the lost sheep, and, “when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home” (Luke 15:5-6). The lamb is found, and the Shepherd gladly bears the burden; our Lord takes full responsibility for bringing the lost one safely home.
Jude 24-25 further emphasizes the goodness and faithfulness of our Savior: “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy-to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.”
Meloy Gargallano
For a Calvinist, that is a presumptuous statement because in order for all what you said to be true, man must have infallible knowledge of the future and know for certain that he is elect and cannot fall away. We agree that man’s assurance rest in the finished work of Christ, but what does not follow is that once you come to Christ you can never fall away. We must be careful not to elevate the words of Paul above the commands and warning of Christ and the real danger of falling away by not remaining in the vine (John 15:5.) We must test all teachings whether they are of man or of God and not be deceived with the philosophical spin of doctrine that convinces us of empty promises (Eph.5:6.) that i can never lose my salvation and making null and void the warnings. Can man be cut off, yes (Romans 11:22.) The audience of which hell was preached most often were not the unrighteous, but those who accepted Christ. This danger was very real and from my understanding of scripture this danger was not meant to be understood that look what I could’ve been, but instead, look what will happen (Matthew 5:22.)
@@jesuschristsaves9067 "man must have infallible knowledge of the future and know for certain that he is elect and cannot fall away." What do you mean by this Sir?
Sir correct me if I understand your statement as if I need to really understand everything about my being elect. Well, If I am a son of God, I don't have to understand everything as a prince is surely entitled to the inheritance of the king. Besides Sir, John 15:5 does not teach that a Christian can lose his salvation. the context goes back even to chapter8 of John where Christ is contrasting the works of the flesh and the spirit. Only in Jesus/True Vine can fruit be produced. JESUS IS THE TRUE VINE is the main theme of the chapter bro. If there are those who do not bear fruit and are cut down, THEN CHRIST IS THE PROBLEM because HE IS THE SOURCE. The reason that they are cut down is that in the first place they are not even connected to the VINE.
I was dead in trespasses and sins and He made me alive. Ephesians 2 (read the whole chapter if you will). That would be spiritual suicide then if I can fall away from Him when He already quickened me. He saved from the penalty of sin, He is saving me from the power of sin ( I cannot maintain living a holy life and neither can you), AND HE WILL SAVE ME FROM THE PRESENCE OF SIN WHEN I AM IN GLORY WITH HIM.