Well shit! A few things to respond to haha **I guess group checks exist! Page 175 of the PHB.** (I did not know this, and I like it) Basically if you all roll and at least half the group makes the check: you succeed. **reliable talent** Yes, yes I know but by then your rogue has probably been outvoted on taking the stealthy approach ever again after the incident at griffons keep. **passive skills exist already! ** Again, yes I know, but they aren't often used to actively do a thing, and they don't represent a floor for the roll, which is where passive perception seems to have a bit more oomf. **Monsters can't hide from the PC that spent all of their class features to be able to find monsters** Yep. I mean, that sounds fair to me haha **Crits don't exist outside of combat** _sigh_ yes, ok, fine, true, but, like... They do in our hearts. I usually run autonegative/autopositive, as opposed to necessarily an auto success. That said I made an effort not to say "crit." _But I think we all heard the dice whisper it._
You should just do a whole episode on Passive Skills (yes, passive stealth can exist under those rules) and Group Checks. I run tons of Adventurers League and as a DM you have to use Group Checks effectively to give parties a fair shake in lots of modules.
ok, i have to read these books more closely, because i also didn't know that group checks were an official rule in this edition, and I had been busting out a calculator to get the average result of my player's stealth rolls and good lord just checking if half the goobers succeeded would make that shit so much easier
One rule that people often forget about are group rolls. In order to stave off the “only one person has to roll badly for the group to fail,” there’s a rule stating that if the entire group rolls for one ability, only half of the rolls need to succeed for the group to succeed
That's how I run group stealth too; the entire group rolls and if it at least half succeed, it works out until they have to switch between moving silently and hiding. My only caveat is that they convince me they're taking reasonable precautions to stay away from enemies that could potentially detect the worst of them (ie the character with nothing in the skill and an armor penalty).
Yeah, I always roll group Stealth just so the plate wearing Pali doesn't screw up everyone surprise round. If I REALLY don't want a group to get the drop on the enemies I'll throw in a monster with Truesight or Blind-sight, something like that.
On the other hand group rolls may make it easier to pass then sneaking as an individual. That seems also wrong. It should be easier to sneak through one person then the entire thiefs guild.
@@Random2 he's also wrong about passives. Technically, IIRC, every stat had a passive. They just really come into play. Also, passive isn't technically a floor for a roll, because that would entirely negate a rogue's Reliable Talent.
@@YamiYaiba I agree, he's wrong about a lot. The passive floor thing is straight from Crawford, though. There's just no actual rule about it in game so most people don't bother
@@YamiYaiba The floor rule is straight from Crawford, like Ethan said, *but* there is some evidence from LMoP that the passive perception is not 1:1 with active perception. The passive DC to locate a hidden door there is 15, iirc, and 10 DC for the active check. That leads me to tend to run the floor as 5 below your passive
@@YamiYaiba IIRC the Rules are extremely vague on this, the verbatim text is "A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster." With this workding for example a pasive stealth is not really a thing (wich woudl equate to good old taking 10), since sneaking cant be done over and over, until you succeed, and it inherently an avtive activity. I would simply advocate to reintroduce the take 10 rules, that you can take a 10 instead of rolling, if there is no immediate threat pressuring you.
The idea of giving the party a one turn clock while enemies switch from passive to active Perception is really good. It makes it seem more like the dungeon or whatever is a living space, populated by fallible people, rather than a mechanism that starts spawning bots on top of the party as soon as they fail their arbitrary dice roll. It also creates tension - as the players scramble to assess their surroundings and rush to cover - rather than disappointment at having their infiltration sabotaged by a single bad random result. If Stealth fails initially, monsters should signpost their alertness in some fashion. The now memetic "What was that noise?" is always an option, as is the complete cession of ambient noise in the environment.
I use background music and ambient sounds at my table and the sudden cessation or change of background sounds or music that my players were familiar and comfortable with immediately grabs their attention. If they’re at camp surrounded by the sounds of nocturnal wildlife like crickets and night birds and then the sound suddenly stops and it’s just the crackling of the fire, AND the player on watch fails their perception check, I can practically SEE their blood pressure spike.
Some fun flip of the rules can be to use passive stealth versus active wisdom, if the players are in hiding from an alert enemy. Another house rule I've seen used was using passive stealth used until the player encounters an enemy and gets 'detected.' At that moment they have to roll a stealth check to quickly come up with a means to hide. If they roll well, the enemy isn't alerted at all, but it makes it very moment-to-moment. It also prevents players from being like "Oh hey I rolled a 20 on my stealth! Now I can just go around as if I were invisible." Cause that 20 would only apply to that one enemy who almost saw them.
I kinda love this rule, though the only problem I see with it is that a really good rogue may basically become invisible against dumb enemies. but maybe if you roll for enemies keeping watch, since they are actively looking for something weird. that way there is a higher chance of some moment of tension.
@@danilooliveira6580 Well, I'm pretty sure that in situations where there are no hiding places you can't hide, and that a seeker can choose to look where they want to, so that you can't become invisible in a situation where it makes no sense. that being said, dumb enemies would need to get lucky or for the hider to pick a bad spot to see them anyway.
Also: Use the hecking darkness rules! Pay attention to who has darkvision! Use cantrips to snuff out candles and lights. Lure alert seekers into darker areas!
The problem there is that the 5e darkness rules are weird (light in an area helps people in that area, but if you’re outside it you don’t see anything in the light. It’s weird) One should use lighting to help their stealth, along with other obscuring things. One should absolutely not use the raw darkness rules
@@urieldaluz250 The rules state that you can't see (are effectively blinded to) something that is in darkness / heavily obscured. I couldn't find a rule that states that you're blinded when in an area of darkness. Edit: PHB p. 183 in Part 3 > Chapter 8: Adventuring > The Environment > Vision and Light
Don't forget; darkvision let's you see in total darkness as if it were dim light. That means disadvantage on your perception / investigation checks. And lack of colors means you might be missing that dried up blood on the cave wall..
The group check rules exist precisely for this reason. Making the entire group do individual stealth checks mathematically guarantees that stealth fails. It's one of the most underused rules in D&D.
I also see a lot of people interpreting each player's roll in the group check as how well that specific PC does in the group check. For instance, I saw a comment somewhere above that said if half succeed and half step on twigs, the party still succeeds but it doesn't make sense with RP because half stepped on twigs. But this is a misinterpretation of what the rolls for a group check represent. The rolls of a group check are literally just ROLLS used to determine if the whole GROUP succeeds or fails. It also streamlines play so you aren't rolling 6 times around the table and RPing how every PC sneaks past the guards. So if the group check is a success, even the pally player who rolled a 1 still scoots by without making too much noise. The 1 doesn't mean the pally tumbled down the stairs but the guards still don't hear it somehow. Roleplay comes into account AFTER the result has been determined. It's the same as any other skill or ability check EXCEPT the condition for success has to be met by more than one roll.
@@30noir no, it's not dumb. The scout still serves its purpose. It's easier for the rogue with +7 to stealth to pass his check than to pass the group checks with the paladin and STR-fighter, who both wear heavy armor with disadv. To stealth and +0 to the roll. So scouts still serve their purpose.
@@GibsonGiddeon Agreed, though as I recall even in the rule entry the idea is the people who roll poorly are covered by the people who roll well, so you could role play that the Paladin was about to fall down the stairs or step on the twig, but the highrollers caught them, or warned them. It makes the scene more interesting without cluttering things up too much. (I like it when after a group check I get all the numbers, pause a minute, then basically describe a little vignette of how they work together, using the rolls to describe each person's actions.)
My current DM has continually ruled the individual check in the wilderness setting to avoid combat, instead of the group (which is how I rule when I DM) and I after the fact took the liberty to calculate it for our 4 characters, we had a 94% chance to fail (after costumes), it was basically a 1 in 20 shot to succeed. I made the argument (after game had ended) in the chat, that we should not have wasted any time preparing elaborate undersea costumes (I wore rocks as a warforged to look more like... the floor?).
I will say, there is a "floor" for stealth checks: Pass Without Trace. Granted, this only applies as long as you have a Ranger or Druid, but I feel like it's one of those niche yet powerful spells that Druids and Rangers kind of forget about.
To be honest, it makes sense to me that it would be more difficult for an entire group of adventurers to sneak by, rather than an individual. And it only takes one to give them away.
Sure, but realism isn't always much fun. Also, it makes the sneaky people in the group feel really cool for doing something everyone benefits from without having to leave them behind.
Late but, yeah realism isn't always = fun, if you wanna flavour it somehow, you can say for example the rogue used his expertise in sneaking and cunning to make a distraction, letting the paladin get away with the loud clanking of his armour.
@@Sorestlor thats the help action. You are describing help. For my two cents, the whole party should be detected if they decide to stick by the walking tin can
I have my party play jenga, if it’s like a big stealth mission, every failed stealth check is a block, 1’s are 3. Their cover is blown when the tower falls
I actually like this. It builds tension without (hopefully) causing insta-failure. However I do see problems with remote players and players with a disability, who might need a proxy to remove the blocks.
@@gbuglyoclose, that minimum stealth roll op is talking about refers to reliable talent which treats a roll below 10 as a 10. So cleric can spot the rogue if the rogue gets below average on the d20
@@Charles-dg2gkYou're right, I forgot about that one. But it could still go either way, so I'm sure nobody will laugh until after the roll is made. :)
There's also the fact that stealth isn't invisibility. If a couple of attentive guards are looking down an empty, well-lit hallway, you can't just announce "I STEALTH" and walk through the space. You need a distraction or a different route.
I was thinking this myself. You basically do get passive stealth and it is very powerful, so it makes sense why it isn't just given to everyone. Also low light imposes a -5 penalty for most races and sneaking in bright light should be hard.
Yeah, that's why I'm against "passive skill checks" (other than perception/investigation/insight), because this devalues the rogue's class ability that they needed 11 levels to get.
@@Poopulan I mean, it's powerful, but it's also at level 11, while spell casters are getting spells, and at this point barbs can just say "no" when they die, it's pretty good for a class based on skills.
a person in my 18th level group is a rogue with a modifier of 15 in stealth... We just let her do her stealth thing in most cases since even her modifier itself is high enough to not be detected by most creatures
1:23 minor correction; every skill has a passive score, it's just that the only one noted by default on your character sheet is perception (and on DnD Beyond, investigation as well). Also, funnily enough I also had this concept after getting frustrated in playing in a friend's campaign who was less well-read on the rules, and in like 5 combat encounters in a dungeon we were "surprised" even though the enemies we fought weren't sneaking. This led me to reread through the sections on hiding and passive skills and led me to have this same kind of idea.
This is also why I made some homebrew rules for stealth and they have been working like a charm: -Perception Penalties: >Being more than 60 feet away imposes a -1 to their perception per 20 feet past that so a guard trying to see a rogue 200 feet away has a -7 to their perception. Characters still need cover to hide, so in a open field even with a -7 they see you. -Group Stealth: >When more than one player want to sneak as a group I ask who is leading the effort, or guiding their path. Stealth isn't just about being silent it's also about choosing the right path that has good cover, paying attention to light, etc. Then everyone rolls stealth, the results are added together with the leader of the effort having his roll added twice and then divided by the number of players +1. Little mathy but calculators are your friend. What this means is that in a small group the leader has a big impact on stealth so the rogue can guide the paladin, assuming he rolls well enough compensate for a crappy paladin roll. The larger the group the less effect the leader has. Groups can be made of up to 5 creatures with anyone above that taking group penalties. No matter how sneaky 200 goblins can't ambush the party by having good average stealth. This system allows for anyone, not just rogues to scout as at a far enough distance there is no need to roll as the penalties are too large. On the other hand sneaky characters can get far closer and far better information or even lead the party into an ambush position. I also add other conditions such as: -Heavy armor only imposes disadvantage on stealth if moving within hearing distance. Heavy armor is noisy, not necessarily shiny. So a paladin that wants to stand still has no disadvantage. -Being stationary for more than 1 minute adds advantage on stealth. Predicting a path and laying in ambush is way easier than sneaking up on a guarded camp. -Failing by less than 5 doesn't mean instantly spotted just that something was noticed. If hiding in bushes this generally means a blur of movement or the crack of a twig. This is mainly for players to give them a chance to remedy the situation and add tension, such as using minor illusion to create a deer to dispel suspicions. -Guards have states of alertness that affect their passive perceptions and reactions: >Negligent: -5, ignores major problems such as a friendly guard missing his post for long times, or unimportant objects missing. >Relaxed: -2, ignores minor problems such as a small object being moved out of place without notice. >Normal: standard perception, usual investigations of occurrences. >Alert: +2, investigations of suspicious activities is done in groups, guards communicate positions or actions and anyone not accounted for is quickly noticed. Even minor problems are reported and investigated. >Paranoid: +5, investigations of suspicious activities is instead reported as a potential threat. Guards always have their weapons at the ready in expectation of an attack. Even minor disturbances are thoroughly explored, a missing guard is treated as an attack. DM's should have the guards periodically conduct perimeter searches or give off false alarms as the guards are paranoid. Periods without incident can make guards relaxed and long times of boredom and low pay can make them negligent. Likewise disciplined guards, well payed or loyal are alert and continuous attacks or intruders can make them paranoid. These bonuses also apply to DCs to bribe guards for entry at relaxed and negligent states. Alert or paranoid guards normally are immune to bribes without a very convincing reason. Alertness can change quickly if evidence is found, such as a dead guard or intruders being spotted.
Quick note: group checks on stealth only require that half of the party pass the stealth check for the entire group to succeed at the stealth. This is true for all group rolls. Page 175 of the players handbook
Is it half, as in 2 out of 4, or above half, as in 3 out of 4? I DM a game for 2 players, so only needing half would mean that having both stealth would actually make it easier than just one person, since they get 2 dice to achieve 1 success, in contrast to your normal 1 die to 1 success.
@@XpVersusVista At least half, so only 1 would need to pass. If you want to add a little more consequence for if one of your 2 players *really* f*cks it up, you could do Nat 1 counts as 2 fails, so that say the other person passes it would be 1/3 successes, but then you should probably also make a Nat 20 count as 2 successes to make it even.
I've always played that passive perception lets me point out something a player might notice (dust on the floor in an odd shape, a feint breeze, an odd smell) but if they want more details then they need to succeed on an active perception check to observe that thing in more detail. An example would be the players are in the woods and the watch person notices a shadow moving in the trees. They can make a perception check to either see the creature about to eat them or to chalk it up to their imagination. Using passive perception as a skill floor, while interesting, also takes away some of the intrigue from searching a room or looking for something specific since you'd never be able to get a "bad" role.
I always just use passive skills unless something is actively resisting the player or if there's a time crunch. The rogue is going to eventually open that lock given infinite time, since the DC is within his range of success. So it takes the a number of rounds equal to the DC - (10 + Rogues Thieves Tools check) X. So if the DC is 25 and X = 17, then it takes 8 rounds for the rogue to open the chest. Then if there is someone or something putting pressure on or resisting them making the check, that's when they roll.
@@hesseldekraai Yeah, basically took this from 3.5, but without the hard and fast 1 minute - 10 minute added time from 3.5. It's (3.5) where I and most of my group started, so it just made sense to us.
I like rolling for things like picking a lock to see if a trap was set off, or if the lock was damaged and can no longer be picked. More interesting results than merely "pick till you succeed"
@@Vizaru I don't use nat 1/nat 20 auto fail/succeed on skill checks, so that kind of thing isn't common in my games. Plus if they're not rushed, they'll be careful not to ruin something. That kind of thing happens when someone fails a check by 10 or more while pressured. Say they start picking a lock that's within the capabilities while in a noble's room, there's no one around so they start leisurely opening the lock, but 3 turns into their 8 turn lockpicking attempt... "You hear a noise in the next room that sounds like footsteps approaching you, if you want this open without them finding you, you have to get it open now." "You failed by 12, you hear the unsettling sound of metal breaking inside the lock. The door behind you begins opening, pick a hiding spot and roll stealth if you want to avoid being seen." That's how it would go for my games.
Aren't there already group stealth rolls to accommodate the groups trying to sneak with a holy clanker? I always thought is was the average of the top three results or something. Edit: I dont keep my PHB on me so I can't verify but a Google seems that group stealth succeeds if more than half pass.
yes, you can already make group checks. To quote the book "To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds. Otherwise, the group fails. Group checks don't come up very often, and they're most useful when all the characters succeed or fail as a group"
Hans Koenig with that I’d argue that a stealth check isn’t a group check. All it takes is 1 person to get seen for an enemy to know that there are people around. It’s not a strength check to see if the group can push away a boulder where one person can carry the weight of two
The best way to work with that is if you fail a stealth roll, the seekers go on alert. “What was that?” If you fail again, then they see you and probably attack. Otherwise, it’s a “Must’ve been the wind” situation. Also, it makes sense that groups sneaking together would be louder than a single person, but you can still use the majority rule for whether the group as a whole helps cover each other’s stealth.
"there is no passive stealth score" I thought every skill had a passive score, but perception gets a special spot on the sheet because it comes up so much more than the other passives.
That's more of a home-rule, but there is Passive Perception and Passive Insight, although people accept that there can be passive scores for each skill.
yes, Passive Checks are on PHB page 175 next to Group Checks. Any Skill can be allowed as a Passive Check. I'm frankly a bit disappointed that in all these videos Zee never came across these 2 topics. They are fundamental to making RAW play work.
@@jessebyrd5621 Passive scores are a way to Assume Competence. As adventurers you should always be on the lookout for danger, so Passive Perception is called out in the PHB, but if you decide to "sneak through the dungeon" the PHB absolutely wants you to just use Passive Stealth if it streamlines the storytelling.
Technically, every skill does. But you only use passive rolls when you can do it repeatedly in the same environment. "They're a special check without the dice that are used for rolls that can be repeated, or done in secret" It does state that any skill can do this. But, for most stealth rolls, you both know when you're caught, and if you fail once, there's no redemption. You can't become "unfound" without consequences. You're actively sneaking, and they're passively searching. So there's technically a passive stealth score, but not one that's often useful by RAW. It just doesn't come up much Unless you're "hiding" stationarily and someone glances at the area to check if anyone's there, but that could easily still be flipped on its head and allow the players to roll stealth vs their repetitive perception Granted, he did get group checks wrong. They basically say "if half the party is successful, so is everyone else" But also, this is a speed vid. Room for error should be allowed honestly
Imagine a passive stealth in action; it would be like a creepy kid, creeping everywhere. But instead of a kid, its an adult creeping around. Please listen to the Lonely Island song "The Creep", to realize why this is a bad idea impracticality. I'm somewhat joking...
I've been loving these last couple of videos. It's little things like this that have always frustrated me mechanically in D&D and its really nice to see it being addressed in a thoughtful way.
Honestly I’m so glad you’re expanding these videos on base rules that people frequently get wrong! I’d love to see something on the non-attack options for combat, like Hide, Ready Action, taunting, feinting, and more!
I have occasionally forgotten about the +/- 5 to passive perception, though as far as the skill floor: I love not having to roll perception for opponents until one of my players rolls low on stealth. It can help speed things up if my players are looking to get in and out
I actually love the floor for passive perception. It streamlines a lot. Using that with the PHB group checks makes stealth not take almost as long as combat does
Zee is super reliable for explaining things or pointing out things I missed reading the DMG or even the PHB. But THIS ONE. HOLY S**T THIS ONE. I have seen the light, and it shows me an easy way to encourage my players to sneak around in the dark. THANK YOU!!
how do you feel about averaging the stealth of the party vs passive perception? A lot of dms I've played with use that, and it lets the sneaky +12 rogue have a chance to make up for any nat 1s.
PHB p175 has defined "group checks" where if half the party succeds, all succeed. also never forget RAW and RAI natural 1s and 20s are not automatic failes/successes repectively, this is a common, and frankly mostly bad, houserule.
@@arandombard1197 Except that doesn't gel with the roleplay aspect, because if half your party steps on a twig, the other half shouldn't rightly be able to compensate. So in that circumstance, it makes more sense to average the results. Yes, it's not very friendly to the players, but stealth is difficult, especially when moving in a group.
@@rockchewer7929 Yeah, I can see reason for doing that, but this involves, albeit farily simple, math, while the groupcheck in thr PHB exists, wich very many people, including zee as it seems, forget, and is very simple to use. also: if you have a DC of 15, and three gat exactly 15, and two get only 10, PHB rules woudl say, group passed, but averaging you wouldn't so it works both ways.
@@Brutalyte616 Of course they can compensate. "The rogue guides you through the forest. He suddenly puts out his hand in front of the Paladin. You all look down to see the Paladin seconds away from standing on a twig. The rogue puts his finger to his mouth in a shushing gesture and waves you to the right". A stealthy character guiding less stealthy characters is such a common trope.
I remember reading that all ability (skill) checks have passive values, they just aren't written on your character sheet. On one hand, I like the idea that a wizard can't roll incredibly low on arcana (since their passive will likely be at least 15), but the idea of passive skills as floors kinda invalidates reliable talent, one of the best features the rogue gets.
For those kinds of group rolles I tend to use average. Everyone roles, and then we pick the average of it. This makes sense, since the sneaky ones would be helping and covering up the mistakes of the louder ones, and one bad roll will not screw up everything Great video!
I see a lot of people interpreting the rolls in a group check this way. The rolls for a group check are literally just the ROLLS used to determine if the group check fails or succeeds, just like any other skill or ability check. They don't represent how well each individual PC performs during the check. So even a paladin who rolls a 1 still doesn't make any noise if the group check succeeds. Averaging is a nice alternative but it can still screw over players for what might have otherwise been a success by the RAW in the PHB for group checks. If you use homebrew crit-fails and successes, then a 1 could result in 2 failures, a 20 as 2 success.
Fighters? There's also the fact that a level 4 Dwarf could have Heavy Armour regardless of their class. Actually, even most Medium Armour gives Stealth disadvantage.
Not in my game. Pally would roll double 19s and pass with flying colors, while the wizard would never roll higher than a 4. Group checks (and the gloomstalker ranger's ridiculous stealth) saved his ass so many times.
This is awesome! My group and I never really knew how to work passive perception in. We did take it as, "well, you don't know its there, and you didn't ask to check. so I'm gonna use your passive." but, as good players, or at least what I thought was good, we constantly asked about the environment and if anything is out of place. So, it was hard for the DM and as a DM to effectively use it.
I seem to recall that you might be able to extend the passive skill rules to all skill checks, but perception and investigation are the only ones really called out specifically (with perception especially since it is the only one actually listed on your character sheet). Though I'm also not sure how you would generalize that to the other skills (maybe something similar to the old take 10 mechanic?).
I can't imagine this existing for all skill checks given rogues level 11 feature makes it so they always roll at least 9 in things they are proficient. Passive everything effectively makes that ability worthless.
@@HairyHariyama except the fact that if your passive succeeds you don't need to roll. So if both characters have a +5 to persuasion they have a 15 passive persuasion. Thus if that passive persuasion doesn't work the reliable talent of rogue wouldn't of worked either. They are literally the same thing except rogues you need to be proficient in the skill passive you don't. The only bonus which isn't horribly small I'll admit is that it applies to initiative rolls which passive wouldn't. But other than that having passives for all skills is still a huge undermine to the rogues ability
@@HairyHariyama SRD A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn’t involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the GM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster. Here’s how to determine a character’s total for a passive check: 10 + all modifiers that normally apply to the check If the character has advantage on the check, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. The game refers to a passive check total as a score. For example, if a 1st-level character has a Wisdom of 15 and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) score of 14. The rules on hiding in the “Dexterity” section below rely on passive checks, as do the exploration rules. Notice the amount of times not rolling is stated.
Nice vid zee! What I tend to do in terms of sneaking in order to initiate surprise in combat, is if a player fails the stealth roll they are also surprised. This stops the paladin from making the groups plans fail, but mean he can’t get off too easy. I also allow someone to bow out of stealth and trail behind the party, meaning they don’t join combat until the second round, so the paladin doesn’t spend every stealth combat getting stabbed a bunch.
Thank you for this, especially that 1-turn warning. It's a very cool mechanic, and one which I'd enjoy in reverse once players start mocking the NPCs for walking out to inspect the noise.
This was really helpful. I have been building a one shot where the players are randomly generated villagers trying to survive something and this will help alot.
Can we just take a second to appreciate that he not only kept in the blooper with the construction work, but animated it as well? Top quality stuff, my guy!
Rolling a twenty is irrelevant. If a rogue with expertise in stealth rolls a 26 with bonuses, a 20 natural from a monster still won't spot the rogue sneaking. Skill checks have no critical successes.
A lot of DMs (myself included) like to implement critical successes for skill checks in order to heighten the shenanigans possible in a session, but it is definitely a different gameplay feel
Not unless you run them that way. A lot of people like to have Nat 20s mean something extra cool, so they usually mean instant success because it can spice up a session.
Yeah I have a star druid doing exacttly this in a Curse of Strahd campaign I'm running. All the other players call the druid "the security camera". I've just leaned into it at this point, I don't even bother. Every room starts with the normal description and then "Druid, you also notice...." :P
Oh, so you've played with someone like me who goes Variant Human for the Observant feat at 1st level while raising INT & WIS as high as not detrimental (my last 5e character was a V.Human rogue that did this very same schtick, my passive perception and investigation at 1st level were both 21 as I could only afford starting 14s via point-buy without seriously dumping other important stats). Edit forgot my character had expertise in both skills.
I don't see why you can't still pull it off - like maybe the druid notices something strange, but doesn't understand it as a trap? Cause usually checking for traps is investigation, right? And Monsters can still roll high stealth if that's what they're good at.
@@veggiedragon1000 At that point, I'd just try to be extra vague about the detail they notice so the player still has to work out if it's a trap or a secret door or what. I wouldn't go "You notice the hidden swinging blade in the ceiling" but instead say "You notice one of the stone tiles on the floor is slightly higher than the others around it." Not to imply that you are, but just to add onto your comment.
I just wanna say I've been watching for a good while now and by god, your animation has improved incredibly as of late. It's remarkable. Keep up the great work, Zee!
Not to mention it makes absolutely no sense. Stuff like this is always up to the group though and cant be seen in an objective way. Thats why its important to play with people you like and you can agree with so everybody has fun. Always be wary of public groups and stuff like that, enjoyable at times but bearing risk of disaster.
I've been using a passive stealth in my games for this exact reason. Believe it's episode 22 on my podcast EFP that I talk about. Makes things into a totally different game! Love your stuff, and keep on rocking!
1:24 - 1:31 During this part you mentioned how one person in a group that is sneaking around, if one person were to fail a roll on the enemies natural perception the whole group will be spotted and you offered some pretty good balancing solutions to solve that. However I was looking through the PHB today and noticed that there is a official rule for “Group checks” on page 175, which pretty much says that if half the group is able to successfully roll they help guide the others that fail their rolls. Besides my find in the PHB I love the animations and so far and you have helped me and some friends understand the game better in your videos.
Really enjoying this narrator model! He animates well and has a really good silhouette. Also covering these wrongly assumed rules will probably be really helpful in the long-run.
Fuckin' 'ey, Zee. I just gotta say, watching your continued growth is amazing. The new and varied ways you make your character look towards the screen in particular are really interesting and help make the video really pop.
I like the Pathfinder one for group stealth. This is meant for out of combat but can be applied to combat: The main stealth guy uses stealth and the others take the action "follow the expert". In the written rules follow the expert allows them to just use the leader's stealth roll to proceed. If you want, you can have those who do "follow the expert" to roll a very easy thing to see how well they follow the expert. Maybe a DC 5 intellingence or wisdom check or something. They aren't moving quietly with their own knowledge but following the expert. I would also add another phase to sneaking: when you fail you aren't immediately known and suspicious and attacked. Failing means you've been detected. Now if it's a group of hostile creatures and you're within line of sight they will probably attack. BUT if you're just walking around the place generally, detection means you've been heard or something you've done has been detected, they found your grappling hook and rope, they heard a sound, talking or steps, or a bird flew away and caught the guards' attention or something. Now your players can try and make themselves undetected again: make more bird noises, cast an illusion of a cat chasing said birds, disguise themselves, hide under tarps or in boxes, whatever. If their idea is good and they succeed in a disguise or stealth check, they're able to be undetected again.
Something I'd like to contribute that Zee didn't mention in his comment is that I don't think passives work in the way he's describing them. The PHB says it's a floor _when dice aren't being rolled_. It also represents the average for a task done repeatedly. This is very significant. When, say, a guard isn't actively investigating something, he's on patrol. Repeatedly checking the areas where he has visibility, looking for something out of the ordinary, and then continues on his route. However, when you alert a guard, investigation is no longer repetitive. Because you're actively focused on seeking out and discovering the cause of what alerted you. This involves listening for noises, uncovering covered objects, and actively scanning for something that matches what alerted you. This is where dice rolls come in. Because a dice roll could represent things like a rat falling off a shelf and making a noise, a guard responding to a buddy asking if he saw anything, a guard just so happening to not be looking where you're sneaking, the guard sneezing and losing his focus, etc. Because even when you're searching for something, you're not putting 100% of your focus on it 100% of the time. Things can distract you for a couple of seconds or you can stop looking for a minute to think about other places where the thing you're finding might be. And that's why Passive Perception can be overruled by the dice.
Your videos are really great for your ADHD viewers man. The pacing, length, everything is just perfect for quick and active engagement/education. Gotta love it.
Thank you for this video! By the time I slogged through the PHB to figure out how races and classes and equipment and combat and, and, and... worked, I completely missed how passive perception worked 'as written'. Heck, to really cement in the knowledge after watching the video, I still had to flip back and forth across three to five pages to refer to all of the things that influence those situations. - It's a shame it is like that, because the rules for it could fit on an index card if it was all gathered together.
I think something that could help here is found in actual ninja tactics: planning ahead. By having your scout spend a day to observe the enemy, they can use their investigation checks to observe where and when the least experienced guards are posted while noting guard rotations. Rather than try to stealth as a group, you break the taboo and have all stealthy fighters sneak in through their own path to achieve their own objective, like sneaking into the jail with a cape of the mounteback, or get the goods. 3, Use your clunky allies as an advantage. By distracting the guards and keeping them detained, your clunky battlemaster can actually provide disadvantage on passive perception and the help action to every stealth roll. Though they might get caught, the guards will believe it as a victory and throw them in jail as bait, where another ally is already waiting to bust them out.
I actually do use this! My tweak though is that if something is spotted by your passive, but not by your roll, you don't know exactly what tweaked it. So unless it's super obvious, you just know something aint right. It's like when you hear a noise, or see something move from the corner of your eye, you know somethings there, but you can't just point at it and say what (that's what an active roll or investigation gets you). I've found this works well, and helps get people moving around and looking for things, without me just telling people what they notice. This way the players have to use their brain, along with their character sheet, and that's always nice. It can also lead to false positives, a high passive perception means you notice a lot, so if someone makes some noise (the classic thrown rock) you notice that, but if you're busy noticing that, you might not notice them slip behind you. Same thing in a crowded market. High perception means you notice a lot of what's going on, lots of little details others miss. But which ones are important, which ones the thing you should notice? That's on the player to hear the signal through the noise.) I keep most of this true for NPC/Monsters, which means PC's can use tricks or noise to overwhelm seekers without me having to think too hard about each creature.
What my group does for group stealth is we take the average of the roll with the implication of the sneakier buggers compensating and helping the clunkier ones. Helping them out or pointing to places to sneak to. You know, like playing red light green light sort of deal. This can lead to some incredible clench moments where we've snuck through half a dungeon to ensure that we're fresh as a daisy for a boss fight and then slowly, and quietly barricading a door to not only stop reinfocements coming in but muffle sound so that we don't end up with half a dungeon dropping on us like the wrath of god. At the end of a campaign we were down to three characters and took huge advantage of this with a lightly armoured, crossbow master Champion Fighter, a Mastermind Rogue with a magic throwing knife of returning and a BURLY Hunter Ranger with a battleaxe. We ghosted through a dungeon outright lying our way through checkpoints, sending entire patrols on wild goose chases, (we had those ogres so convinced we were trustworthy we basically had them running laps) if we didn't think we could sneak it and faced off against the end boss with full hitpoints, spells and magic weapon charges. Couple that with out Champion Fighter's tendency to ALWAYS CRIT and my BRUTAL sneak attacks on top of the Rangers consistent damage and we tore that elemental prince to pieces.
I like to use Location Alertness as a homebrew rule. Essentially, a location starts at 0 Alertness. (It can actually go negative if players take actions to sabotage the location's security, and it can also start at higher numbers if the players do something that would put the security on higher alert before the stealth section) Any time some either individually fails a stealth check or more than half the players as a group fail a stealth check AGAINST ACTIVE PERCEPTION, the alert level raises. 0 means that guards take their normal patrol and use passive perception (but passive perception only allows them to take a perception roll if someone rolls below passive perception). 1 means guards begin to deviate and "investigate" disturbances (failed checks or distractions.) They still use passive perception but can now choose to use active perception at the GM's discretion. 2 means the guards are alerted and now abandon patrols to pursue disturbances. They roll active perception aggressively as they look for an intruder. Essentially they are aware someone is here, but they don't know where they are. Guards also will have their weapons drawn and will use perception enhancing spells or abilities as necessary. 3 is full alert. Party or individual has been spotted. All guards with alert level 3 will pursue the trespasser to initiate combat. I've found it makes stealth have a sort of building tension but doesn't immediately punish players for failing a single save. There's nice, tense moments but the rogue doesn't get instantly vaporized because they rolled below someone's passive perception.
It's funny to hear you use the passive rules during checks, because no group I played with seemed to use it. (which was frustrating as a druid with high passive perception but always rolled under nat 10.)
that's why pass without trace as a spell is so good. It makes everyone into stealth experts, and if we use the group rolls rule, i.e success if 1/2 of the party succeed on the roll, then the ability to ambush an enemy and make them surprised becomes very real. With just one second level spell, you essentially get 1 turn over the enemy, and the glommstalkers (who have the spell on their list) and assassin rogues get a massive nova turn
A point on sneaking in groups: If you've ever snuck around in real life; whoever is "on point" in your marching order should have their bonus apply to the other members of the party or at least a fraction of it. Here's the logic behind that; when you have to evade detection in a group, the furthest ahead in the group will be the one to detect what one could call "micro-obstacles" and direct those behind them in formation away from them. Shattered glass on the ground, a stray bottle or notably large stone, and even just plain ole brittle foliage isn't difficult to navigate around if the person ahead of you has already done so in eyeshot and communicated to you how to do the same. Even assuming that the group isn't moving in a single-file, it's always best to have a "point man" to feel out the thin ice ahead and direct everyone else by means of simple hand signals or whispering or other means of communication with low audibility. I like the table rule of having a round to hide before being fully detected, as even a second of hearing a clear human voice could be dismissed as "maybe that's not what I actually heard" by common guard at the end of his shift and I've had real-life close calls where even after being clearly spotted, just the act of hiding resulted in the sentry assuming that my group simply left.
Thanks for these ideas! Off topic: I must admit that I do prefer your normal style of drawing - even though the bouncy beard and light effects look complex, but the character has not as much cartoonish flair and immediate aura of awesomeness as your normal characters! =D
we always use group rolls for stealth (which upon reading comments is an official ruling!) just because it's not really fair to cut off stealth from those who specced into that aspect of the game, just because one of your party members wants to be a tanky fella in heavy armor. instead of 1 guy ruining it for everybody else, the others are helping keep the 1 guy quieter than he would be on his own. We usually roleplay that they stay far towards the back furthest away from people we are sneaking around : )
Rolling lower than your passive perception totally makes sense though. If you are actively searching, you may not notice the things you aren't focused on. So if you are looking harder, but in the wrong area, people can still sneak by.
![“อ.เบียร์ คนตื่นธรรม” มาตามคำเรียกร้อง แหกศาสตร์ฮวงจุ้ย เตือนสติอย่างมงาย | แฉ 7 พ.ย. 67 [1/3]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5fc4S3xBNfc/mqdefault.jpg)
Well shit! A few things to respond to haha
**I guess group checks exist! Page 175 of the PHB.**
(I did not know this, and I like it) Basically if you all roll and at least half the group makes the check: you succeed.
**reliable talent**
Yes, yes I know but by then your rogue has probably been outvoted on taking the stealthy approach ever again after the incident at griffons keep.
**passive skills exist already! **
Again, yes I know, but they aren't often used to actively do a thing, and they don't represent a floor for the roll, which is where passive perception seems to have a bit more oomf.
**Monsters can't hide from the PC that spent all of their class features to be able to find monsters**
Yep. I mean, that sounds fair to me haha
**Crits don't exist outside of combat**
_sigh_ yes, ok, fine, true, but, like... They do in our hearts. I usually run autonegative/autopositive, as opposed to necessarily an auto success. That said I made an effort not to say "crit." _But I think we all heard the dice whisper it._
You should just do a whole episode on Passive Skills (yes, passive stealth can exist under those rules) and Group Checks. I run tons of Adventurers League and as a DM you have to use Group Checks effectively to give parties a fair shake in lots of modules.
Dude you definitely have one of the best outlooks on DMing I've come across, keep it coming 👍👍
Any more “the cold road” stories???? I love those!!!
ok, i have to read these books more closely, because i also didn't know that group checks were an official rule in this edition, and I had been busting out a calculator to get the average result of my player's stealth rolls and good lord just checking if half the goobers succeeded would make that shit so much easier
@@sordcooper2 Median should also work, just take the middlest value (or the average of the two middle values if you've got an even number of players)
One rule that people often forget about are group rolls. In order to stave off the “only one person has to roll badly for the group to fail,” there’s a rule stating that if the entire group rolls for one ability, only half of the rolls need to succeed for the group to succeed
That's how I run group stealth too; the entire group rolls and if it at least half succeed, it works out until they have to switch between moving silently and hiding. My only caveat is that they convince me they're taking reasonable precautions to stay away from enemies that could potentially detect the worst of them (ie the character with nothing in the skill and an armor penalty).
Yeah, I always roll group Stealth just so the plate wearing Pali doesn't screw up everyone surprise round.
If I REALLY don't want a group to get the drop on the enemies I'll throw in a monster with Truesight or Blind-sight, something like that.
On the other hand group rolls may make it easier to pass then sneaking as an individual. That seems also wrong. It should be easier to sneak through one person then the entire thiefs guild.
@@synthetic240 Same here. I use this when the party is sneaking around. I think it's the most common situation I use group checks for.
@@besNait you could say that the half that succeeded is using their stealth bonus/skill to aid in keeping the ones that failed from being spotted.
Next video: "I've been running stealth wrong all this time!" after he re-reads the group check section.
Just the group check? Most of the rules in this video are wrong.
@@Random2 he's also wrong about passives. Technically, IIRC, every stat had a passive. They just really come into play. Also, passive isn't technically a floor for a roll, because that would entirely negate a rogue's Reliable Talent.
@@YamiYaiba I agree, he's wrong about a lot. The passive floor thing is straight from Crawford, though. There's just no actual rule about it in game so most people don't bother
@@YamiYaiba The floor rule is straight from Crawford, like Ethan said, *but* there is some evidence from LMoP that the passive perception is not 1:1 with active perception. The passive DC to locate a hidden door there is 15, iirc, and 10 DC for the active check. That leads me to tend to run the floor as 5 below your passive
@@YamiYaiba IIRC the Rules are extremely vague on this, the verbatim text is "A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster."
With this workding for example a pasive stealth is not really a thing (wich woudl equate to good old taking 10), since sneaking cant be done over and over, until you succeed, and it inherently an avtive activity.
I would simply advocate to reintroduce the take 10 rules, that you can take a 10 instead of rolling, if there is no immediate threat pressuring you.
The idea of giving the party a one turn clock while enemies switch from passive to active Perception is really good. It makes it seem more like the dungeon or whatever is a living space, populated by fallible people, rather than a mechanism that starts spawning bots on top of the party as soon as they fail their arbitrary dice roll. It also creates tension - as the players scramble to assess their surroundings and rush to cover - rather than disappointment at having their infiltration sabotaged by a single bad random result.
If Stealth fails initially, monsters should signpost their alertness in some fashion. The now memetic "What was that noise?" is always an option, as is the complete cession of ambient noise in the environment.
I use background music and ambient sounds at my table and the sudden cessation or change of background sounds or music that my players were familiar and comfortable with immediately grabs their attention. If they’re at camp surrounded by the sounds of nocturnal wildlife like crickets and night birds and then the sound suddenly stops and it’s just the crackling of the fire, AND the player on watch fails their perception check, I can practically SEE their blood pressure spike.
Some fun flip of the rules can be to use passive stealth versus active wisdom, if the players are in hiding from an alert enemy.
Another house rule I've seen used was using passive stealth used until the player encounters an enemy and gets 'detected.' At that moment they have to roll a stealth check to quickly come up with a means to hide. If they roll well, the enemy isn't alerted at all, but it makes it very moment-to-moment. It also prevents players from being like "Oh hey I rolled a 20 on my stealth! Now I can just go around as if I were invisible." Cause that 20 would only apply to that one enemy who almost saw them.
Does that mean you don't halve your players movements when they are stealthing?
@@Sinsults RAW stealth only goes in hand with movement speed for purposes of overland travel, not for actively sneaking around.
I kinda love this rule, though the only problem I see with it is that a really good rogue may basically become invisible against dumb enemies. but maybe if you roll for enemies keeping watch, since they are actively looking for something weird. that way there is a higher chance of some moment of tension.
@@danilooliveira6580 Well, I'm pretty sure that in situations where there are no hiding places you can't hide, and that a seeker can choose to look where they want to, so that you can't become invisible in a situation where it makes no sense. that being said, dumb enemies would need to get lucky or for the hider to pick a bad spot to see them anyway.
@@danilooliveira6580 consider that rogues can basically already do that with the *Reliable Talent* feature.
Zee tryin to work people outside casting some advanced form of Erratic Hammering
It's the 9th level version, erratic tunnelbohring.
Is Zee prepping us for a big reveal with the construction work?
@@imperialadvisoraremheshvau3788 I still think it'll be Puffin Forrest as the renovating neighbor.
@@WildBluntHickok Aha, it is I! Abserd! Everyone is loving Abserd's new furniture factory! It is very good bookcases!
Also: Use the hecking darkness rules! Pay attention to who has darkvision! Use cantrips to snuff out candles and lights. Lure alert seekers into darker areas!
The problem there is that the 5e darkness rules are weird (light in an area helps people in that area, but if you’re outside it you don’t see anything in the light. It’s weird)
One should use lighting to help their stealth, along with other obscuring things. One should absolutely not use the raw darkness rules
@@urieldaluz250 The rules state that you can't see (are effectively blinded to) something that is in darkness / heavily obscured. I couldn't find a rule that states that you're blinded when in an area of darkness.
Edit: PHB p. 183 in Part 3 > Chapter 8: Adventuring > The Environment > Vision and Light
Don't forget; darkvision let's you see in total darkness as if it were dim light. That means disadvantage on your perception / investigation checks. And lack of colors means you might be missing that dried up blood on the cave wall..
If you are sneaking a verbal component is going to be a problem.
It’s really only control flame that can do that since all the other ones have verbal components.
Literally perfect timing, really needed a video like this!
The group check rules exist precisely for this reason. Making the entire group do individual stealth checks mathematically guarantees that stealth fails.
It's one of the most underused rules in D&D.
I also see a lot of people interpreting each player's roll in the group check as how well that specific PC does in the group check. For instance, I saw a comment somewhere above that said if half succeed and half step on twigs, the party still succeeds but it doesn't make sense with RP because half stepped on twigs. But this is a misinterpretation of what the rolls for a group check represent. The rolls of a group check are literally just ROLLS used to determine if the whole GROUP succeeds or fails. It also streamlines play so you aren't rolling 6 times around the table and RPing how every PC sneaks past the guards. So if the group check is a success, even the pally player who rolled a 1 still scoots by without making too much noise. The 1 doesn't mean the pally tumbled down the stairs but the guards still don't hear it somehow. Roleplay comes into account AFTER the result has been determined. It's the same as any other skill or ability check EXCEPT the condition for success has to be met by more than one roll.
It's also a bit dumb. Groups have scouts for a reason. Send the sneaky rogue on their own.
@@30noir no, it's not dumb. The scout still serves its purpose.
It's easier for the rogue with +7 to stealth to pass his check than to pass the group checks with the paladin and STR-fighter, who both wear heavy armor with disadv. To stealth and +0 to the roll.
So scouts still serve their purpose.
@@GibsonGiddeon Agreed, though as I recall even in the rule entry the idea is the people who roll poorly are covered by the people who roll well, so you could role play that the Paladin was about to fall down the stairs or step on the twig, but the highrollers caught them, or warned them. It makes the scene more interesting without cluttering things up too much. (I like it when after a group check I get all the numbers, pause a minute, then basically describe a little vignette of how they work together, using the rolls to describe each person's actions.)
My current DM has continually ruled the individual check in the wilderness setting to avoid combat, instead of the group (which is how I rule when I DM) and I after the fact took the liberty to calculate it for our 4 characters, we had a 94% chance to fail (after costumes), it was basically a 1 in 20 shot to succeed. I made the argument (after game had ended) in the chat, that we should not have wasted any time preparing elaborate undersea costumes (I wore rocks as a warforged to look more like... the floor?).
3:00 looks like some nearby spellcaster is using "Bashew's Erratic Hammering" to interrupt his "Summon Subscribers" ritual.
;)
I will say, there is a "floor" for stealth checks: Pass Without Trace.
Granted, this only applies as long as you have a Ranger or Druid, but I feel like it's one of those niche yet powerful spells that Druids and Rangers kind of forget about.
I hope Druids and Rangers never forget about Pass without trace.
That is indeed a very useful spell.
Trikery Domain Cleric get this spell too !
To be honest, it makes sense to me that it would be more difficult for an entire group of adventurers to sneak by, rather than an individual. And it only takes one to give them away.
Sure, but realism isn't always much fun. Also, it makes the sneaky people in the group feel really cool for doing something everyone benefits from without having to leave them behind.
Late but, yeah realism isn't always = fun, if you wanna flavour it somehow, you can say for example the rogue used his expertise in sneaking and cunning to make a distraction, letting the paladin get away with the loud clanking of his armour.
Suppose your rogue rolls a 30 and your paladin 3. It is like "As the paladin is about to step on a twig the rogue stops him/moves it out of the way".
@@Sorestlor thats the help action. You are describing help.
For my two cents, the whole party should be detected if they decide to stick by the walking tin can
@@DimT670 no they're describing the group rolls rule that's in the dmg. There's a reason your idea isn't in the official rules
I have my party play jenga, if it’s like a big stealth mission, every failed stealth check is a block, 1’s are 3. Their cover is blown when the tower falls
Thats actually very creative.
Weird, but innovative.
I... really like this a lot actually
If only we played in person...
I actually like this. It builds tension without (hopefully) causing insta-failure. However I do see problems with remote players and players with a disability, who might need a proxy to remove the blocks.
"There is no passive stealth"
Rogue laughs in minimum 25 stealth roll
Cleric laughs with observant and skill expert... Passive perception of 26...
So he can spot the rogue only if he rolls a 1? If I were that cleric, I wouldn't laugh. I'd be scared.
@@gbuglyoclose, that minimum stealth roll op is talking about refers to reliable talent which treats a roll below 10 as a 10. So cleric can spot the rogue if the rogue gets below average on the d20
@@Charles-dg2gkYou're right, I forgot about that one. But it could still go either way, so I'm sure nobody will laugh until after the roll is made. :)
There's also the fact that stealth isn't invisibility. If a couple of attentive guards are looking down an empty, well-lit hallway, you can't just announce "I STEALTH" and walk through the space. You need a distraction or a different route.
last time I was this early my sessions weren't cancelled
Heh
Zee Bashew: No Passive stealth
Rogue with reliable talent and expertise: So anyway I passed my stealth roll
I was thinking this myself. You basically do get passive stealth and it is very powerful, so it makes sense why it isn't just given to everyone. Also low light imposes a -5 penalty for most races and sneaking in bright light should be hard.
Yeah, that's why I'm against "passive skill checks" (other than perception/investigation/insight), because this devalues the rogue's class ability that they needed 11 levels to get.
@@sebastaroth smart, makes sense
@@Poopulan I mean, it's powerful, but it's also at level 11, while spell casters are getting spells, and at this point barbs can just say "no" when they die, it's pretty good for a class based on skills.
a person in my 18th level group is a rogue with a modifier of 15 in stealth... We just let her do her stealth thing in most cases since even her modifier itself is high enough to not be detected by most creatures
1:23 minor correction; every skill has a passive score, it's just that the only one noted by default on your character sheet is perception (and on DnD Beyond, investigation as well).
Also, funnily enough I also had this concept after getting frustrated in playing in a friend's campaign who was less well-read on the rules, and in like 5 combat encounters in a dungeon we were "surprised" even though the enemies we fought weren't sneaking. This led me to reread through the sections on hiding and passive skills and led me to have this same kind of idea.
This is also why I made some homebrew rules for stealth and they have been working like a charm:
-Perception Penalties:
>Being more than 60 feet away imposes a -1 to their perception per 20 feet past that so a guard trying to see a rogue 200 feet away has a -7 to their perception. Characters still need cover to hide, so in a open field even with a -7 they see you.
-Group Stealth:
>When more than one player want to sneak as a group I ask who is leading the effort, or guiding their path. Stealth isn't just about being silent it's also about choosing the right path that has good cover, paying attention to light, etc. Then everyone rolls stealth, the results are added together with the leader of the effort having his roll added twice and then divided by the number of players +1. Little mathy but calculators are your friend. What this means is that in a small group the leader has a big impact on stealth so the rogue can guide the paladin, assuming he rolls well enough compensate for a crappy paladin roll. The larger the group the less effect the leader has. Groups can be made of up to 5 creatures with anyone above that taking group penalties. No matter how sneaky 200 goblins can't ambush the party by having good average stealth.
This system allows for anyone, not just rogues to scout as at a far enough distance there is no need to roll as the penalties are too large. On the other hand sneaky characters can get far closer and far better information or even lead the party into an ambush position.
I also add other conditions such as:
-Heavy armor only imposes disadvantage on stealth if moving within hearing distance. Heavy armor is noisy, not necessarily shiny. So a paladin that wants to stand still has no disadvantage.
-Being stationary for more than 1 minute adds advantage on stealth. Predicting a path and laying in ambush is way easier than sneaking up on a guarded camp.
-Failing by less than 5 doesn't mean instantly spotted just that something was noticed. If hiding in bushes this generally means a blur of movement or the crack of a twig. This is mainly for players to give them a chance to remedy the situation and add tension, such as using minor illusion to create a deer to dispel suspicions.
-Guards have states of alertness that affect their passive perceptions and reactions:
>Negligent: -5, ignores major problems such as a friendly guard missing his post for long times, or unimportant objects missing.
>Relaxed: -2, ignores minor problems such as a small object being moved out of place without notice.
>Normal: standard perception, usual investigations of occurrences.
>Alert: +2, investigations of suspicious activities is done in groups, guards communicate positions or actions and anyone not accounted for is quickly noticed. Even minor problems are reported and investigated.
>Paranoid: +5, investigations of suspicious activities is instead reported as a potential threat. Guards always have their weapons at the ready in expectation of an attack. Even minor disturbances are thoroughly explored, a missing guard is treated as an attack. DM's should have the guards periodically conduct perimeter searches or give off false alarms as the guards are paranoid.
Periods without incident can make guards relaxed and long times of boredom and low pay can make them negligent.
Likewise disciplined guards, well payed or loyal are alert and continuous attacks or intruders can make them paranoid.
These bonuses also apply to DCs to bribe guards for entry at relaxed and negligent states. Alert or paranoid guards normally are immune to bribes without a very convincing reason.
Alertness can change quickly if evidence is found, such as a dead guard or intruders being spotted.
Quick note: group checks on stealth only require that half of the party pass the stealth check for the entire group to succeed at the stealth. This is true for all group rolls.
Page 175 of the players handbook
Is it half, as in 2 out of 4, or above half, as in 3 out of 4?
I DM a game for 2 players, so only needing half would mean that having both stealth would actually make it easier than just one person, since they get 2 dice to achieve 1 success, in contrast to your normal 1 die to 1 success.
@@XpVersusVista At least half, so only 1 would need to pass. If you want to add a little more consequence for if one of your 2 players *really* f*cks it up, you could do Nat 1 counts as 2 fails, so that say the other person passes it would be 1/3 successes, but then you should probably also make a Nat 20 count as 2 successes to make it even.
That second part isn't in the book, just the "at least half" part.
This is one of my favorite episodes that you've made.
Rogues with expertise and reliable talent can make 'passive' stealth checks btw.
Love the new character design, its so fluid!
I've always played that passive perception lets me point out something a player might notice (dust on the floor in an odd shape, a feint breeze, an odd smell) but if they want more details then they need to succeed on an active perception check to observe that thing in more detail. An example would be the players are in the woods and the watch person notices a shadow moving in the trees. They can make a perception check to either see the creature about to eat them or to chalk it up to their imagination. Using passive perception as a skill floor, while interesting, also takes away some of the intrigue from searching a room or looking for something specific since you'd never be able to get a "bad" role.
I always just use passive skills unless something is actively resisting the player or if there's a time crunch.
The rogue is going to eventually open that lock given infinite time, since the DC is within his range of success.
So it takes the a number of rounds equal to the DC - (10 + Rogues Thieves Tools check) X.
So if the DC is 25 and X = 17, then it takes 8 rounds for the rogue to open the chest.
Then if there is someone or something putting pressure on or resisting them making the check, that's when they roll.
Our group stole the "take 10" or "take 20" from 2.5. Which, if given enough time guarentees a certain outcome
@@hesseldekraai Yeah, basically took this from 3.5, but without the hard and fast 1 minute - 10 minute added time from 3.5.
It's (3.5) where I and most of my group started, so it just made sense to us.
I like rolling for things like picking a lock to see if a trap was set off, or if the lock was damaged and can no longer be picked. More interesting results than merely "pick till you succeed"
@@Vizaru I don't use nat 1/nat 20 auto fail/succeed on skill checks, so that kind of thing isn't common in my games.
Plus if they're not rushed, they'll be careful not to ruin something.
That kind of thing happens when someone fails a check by 10 or more while pressured.
Say they start picking a lock that's within the capabilities while in a noble's room, there's no one around so they start leisurely opening the lock, but 3 turns into their 8 turn lockpicking attempt...
"You hear a noise in the next room that sounds like footsteps approaching you, if you want this open without them finding you, you have to get it open now."
"You failed by 12, you hear the unsettling sound of metal breaking inside the lock. The door behind you begins opening, pick a hiding spot and roll stealth if you want to avoid being seen."
That's how it would go for my games.
@@2Cubic The Passive score idea actually came from the same concept. That's why it's 10+skill.
Great job, amazing work for just 18 hours.
Aren't there already group stealth rolls to accommodate the groups trying to sneak with a holy clanker?
I always thought is was the average of the top three results or something.
Edit: I dont keep my PHB on me so I can't verify but a Google seems that group stealth succeeds if more than half pass.
I've seen it run as half the group need to beat the DC, and if that happens, the whole group passes
@@Arkegox yeah, that's what a cursory Google search seems to indicate too.
yes, you can already make group checks. To quote the book "To make a group ability check, everyone in the group makes the ability check. If at least half the group succeeds, the whole group succeeds.
Otherwise, the group fails. Group checks don't come up very often, and they're most useful when all the characters succeed or fail as a group"
I quite like setting a DC of like 80-100 that the whole party add the result of their stealth roll to try and meet
Hans Koenig with that I’d argue that a stealth check isn’t a group check. All it takes is 1 person to get seen for an enemy to know that there are people around. It’s not a strength check to see if the group can push away a boulder where one person can carry the weight of two
The best way to work with that is if you fail a stealth roll, the seekers go on alert. “What was that?” If you fail again, then they see you and probably attack. Otherwise, it’s a “Must’ve been the wind” situation.
Also, it makes sense that groups sneaking together would be louder than a single person, but you can still use the majority rule for whether the group as a whole helps cover each other’s stealth.
"The wind makes not such a creaking!
...
Must be the wind."
"there is no passive stealth score"
I thought every skill had a passive score, but perception gets a special spot on the sheet because it comes up so much more than the other passives.
That's more of a home-rule, but there is Passive Perception and Passive Insight, although people accept that there can be passive scores for each skill.
yes, Passive Checks are on PHB page 175 next to Group Checks. Any Skill can be allowed as a Passive Check. I'm frankly a bit disappointed that in all these videos Zee never came across these 2 topics. They are fundamental to making RAW play work.
@@jessebyrd5621 Passive scores are a way to Assume Competence. As adventurers you should always be on the lookout for danger, so Passive Perception is called out in the PHB, but if you decide to "sneak through the dungeon" the PHB absolutely wants you to just use Passive Stealth if it streamlines the storytelling.
Technically, every skill does. But you only use passive rolls when you can do it repeatedly in the same environment.
"They're a special check without the dice that are used for rolls that can be repeated, or done in secret"
It does state that any skill can do this.
But, for most stealth rolls, you both know when you're caught, and if you fail once, there's no redemption. You can't become "unfound" without consequences.
You're actively sneaking, and they're passively searching.
So there's technically a passive stealth score, but not one that's often useful by RAW. It just doesn't come up much
Unless you're "hiding" stationarily and someone glances at the area to check if anyone's there, but that could easily still be flipped on its head and allow the players to roll stealth vs their repetitive perception
Granted, he did get group checks wrong. They basically say "if half the party is successful, so is everyone else"
But also, this is a speed vid. Room for error should be allowed honestly
Imagine a passive stealth in action; it would be like a creepy kid, creeping everywhere. But instead of a kid, its an adult creeping around. Please listen to the Lonely Island song "The Creep", to realize why this is a bad idea impracticality. I'm somewhat joking...
I've been loving these last couple of videos. It's little things like this that have always frustrated me mechanically in D&D and its really nice to see it being addressed in a thoughtful way.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but a group check only fails if half or more of the party fails? So even if the paladin rolls a 1, he's not fucked?
That's how I've seen it run, although I wouldn't know if thats rules as written (RAW) or just a common house rule
Correct
Yep, that's accurate
@@Arkegox That is indeed RAW.
Yes.
Honestly I’m so glad you’re expanding these videos on base rules that people frequently get wrong! I’d love to see something on the non-attack options for combat, like Hide, Ready Action, taunting, feinting, and more!
I have occasionally forgotten about the +/- 5 to passive perception, though as far as the skill floor: I love not having to roll perception for opponents until one of my players rolls low on stealth. It can help speed things up if my players are looking to get in and out
Man, the quality on these videos just keeps going up and up! Look at those natural movements!
Best way to stealth through a area is to kill everything in the area then when you are sneaking about nothing will spot you
Loved the construction bit at the end. True artist take what they are given and make it work, you fall into this category my friend great job !
I actually love the floor for passive perception. It streamlines a lot. Using that with the PHB group checks makes stealth not take almost as long as combat does
Zee is super reliable for explaining things or pointing out things I missed reading the DMG or even the PHB. But THIS ONE. HOLY S**T THIS ONE. I have seen the light, and it shows me an easy way to encourage my players to sneak around in the dark. THANK YOU!!
how do you feel about averaging the stealth of the party vs passive perception? A lot of dms I've played with use that, and it lets the sneaky +12 rogue have a chance to make up for any nat 1s.
You mean group checks, that are already in the rules? No need to add in a homebrew rule of averaging the results.
PHB p175 has defined "group checks" where if half the party succeds, all succeed.
also never forget RAW and RAI natural 1s and 20s are not automatic failes/successes repectively, this is a common, and frankly mostly bad, houserule.
@@arandombard1197 Except that doesn't gel with the roleplay aspect, because if half your party steps on a twig, the other half shouldn't rightly be able to compensate. So in that circumstance, it makes more sense to average the results. Yes, it's not very friendly to the players, but stealth is difficult, especially when moving in a group.
@@rockchewer7929 Yeah, I can see reason for doing that, but this involves, albeit farily simple, math, while the groupcheck in thr PHB exists, wich very many people, including zee as it seems, forget, and is very simple to use.
also: if you have a DC of 15, and three gat exactly 15, and two get only 10, PHB rules woudl say, group passed, but averaging you wouldn't so it works both ways.
@@Brutalyte616 Of course they can compensate. "The rogue guides you through the forest. He suddenly puts out his hand in front of the Paladin. You all look down to see the Paladin seconds away from standing on a twig. The rogue puts his finger to his mouth in a shushing gesture and waves you to the right".
A stealthy character guiding less stealthy characters is such a common trope.
Damn, this is some of the best animation I've ever seen from you and as always very great colour palettes.
I remember reading that all ability (skill) checks have passive values, they just aren't written on your character sheet. On one hand, I like the idea that a wizard can't roll incredibly low on arcana (since their passive will likely be at least 15), but the idea of passive skills as floors kinda invalidates reliable talent, one of the best features the rogue gets.
Yeah, it kind of makes everyone have reliable talent at that point. The new floor isn't 1, it's 10 +/- mod, which just doesn't make sense to me
For those kinds of group rolles I tend to use average. Everyone roles, and then we pick the average of it. This makes sense, since the sneaky ones would be helping and covering up the mistakes of the louder ones, and one bad roll will not screw up everything
Great video!
Or you can use the group check rules already in the PHB?
I see a lot of people interpreting the rolls in a group check this way. The rolls for a group check are literally just the ROLLS used to determine if the group check fails or succeeds, just like any other skill or ability check. They don't represent how well each individual PC performs during the check. So even a paladin who rolls a 1 still doesn't make any noise if the group check succeeds. Averaging is a nice alternative but it can still screw over players for what might have otherwise been a success by the RAW in the PHB for group checks. If you use homebrew crit-fails and successes, then a 1 could result in 2 failures, a 20 as 2 success.
Watching you animate on twitch was really informative and cool! Hope you do it again but would understand if you decide it’s too stressful.
As always, you are beyond helpful in your videos and the quality is always top notch
It’s always the paladin, or in some cases the war cleric that fucks up the groups stealth check
Fighters? There's also the fact that a level 4 Dwarf could have Heavy Armour regardless of their class. Actually, even most Medium Armour gives Stealth disadvantage.
Not in my game. Pally would roll double 19s and pass with flying colors, while the wizard would never roll higher than a 4. Group checks (and the gloomstalker ranger's ridiculous stealth) saved his ass so many times.
This is awesome! My group and I never really knew how to work passive perception in. We did take it as, "well, you don't know its there, and you didn't ask to check. so I'm gonna use your passive." but, as good players, or at least what I thought was good, we constantly asked about the environment and if anything is out of place. So, it was hard for the DM and as a DM to effectively use it.
I seem to recall that you might be able to extend the passive skill rules to all skill checks, but perception and investigation are the only ones really called out specifically (with perception especially since it is the only one actually listed on your character sheet). Though I'm also not sure how you would generalize that to the other skills (maybe something similar to the old take 10 mechanic?).
I can't imagine this existing for all skill checks given rogues level 11 feature makes it so they always roll at least 9 in things they are proficient. Passive everything effectively makes that ability worthless.
@@lifetake3103 Characters without reliable talent *can* get a roll lower than their passive.
@@HairyHariyama except the fact that if your passive succeeds you don't need to roll. So if both characters have a +5 to persuasion they have a 15 passive persuasion. Thus if that passive persuasion doesn't work the reliable talent of rogue wouldn't of worked either.
They are literally the same thing except rogues you need to be proficient in the skill passive you don't. The only bonus which isn't horribly small I'll admit is that it applies to initiative rolls which passive wouldn't. But other than that having passives for all skills is still a huge undermine to the rogues ability
@@lifetake3103 "except the fact that if your passive succeeds you don't need to roll."
Citation needed.
@@HairyHariyama SRD
A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn’t involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the GM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster. Here’s how to determine a character’s total for a passive check: 10 + all modifiers that normally apply to the check If the character has advantage on the check, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. The game refers to a passive check total as a score. For example, if a 1st-level character has a Wisdom of 15 and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) score of 14. The rules on hiding in the “Dexterity” section below rely on passive checks, as do the exploration rules.
Notice the amount of times not rolling is stated.
Nice vid zee! What I tend to do in terms of sneaking in order to initiate surprise in combat, is if a player fails the stealth roll they are also surprised. This stops the paladin from making the groups plans fail, but mean he can’t get off too easy.
I also allow someone to bow out of stealth and trail behind the party, meaning they don’t join combat until the second round, so the paladin doesn’t spend every stealth combat getting stabbed a bunch.
Thank you for this, especially that 1-turn warning. It's a very cool mechanic, and one which I'd enjoy in reverse once players start mocking the NPCs for walking out to inspect the noise.
This was really helpful. I have been building a one shot where the players are randomly generated villagers trying to survive something and this will help alot.
I've house-ruled all Passive actions to have a "floor" of 5 instead of 10. I think that makes more sense than the RAW.
I do 8, to match how spell DC is calculated
Love it! Keep that sweet footage coming Sir. Cant get enough of this good stuff
I guess Zee must be a cyclops, because he called me “Nobody” in the title.
This is a really stupid and obscure joke...
I got it. I hope you like spending the next 20ish years lost on the way home from work.
have fun
Spoiler alert, your wife's got hundreds of courters that think you're dead when you get home, so make sure you dress up as an old guy
@@malcolmpul4409 Hope she didn’t throw out the bow...
Wow, next youre telling us everybody laughed at Zee because you commented.
Can we just take a second to appreciate that he not only kept in the blooper with the construction work, but animated it as well? Top quality stuff, my guy!
Rolling a twenty is irrelevant. If a rogue with expertise in stealth rolls a 26 with bonuses, a 20 natural from a monster still won't spot the rogue sneaking. Skill checks have no critical successes.
A lot of DMs (myself included) like to implement critical successes for skill checks in order to heighten the shenanigans possible in a session, but it is definitely a different gameplay feel
Not unless you run them that way. A lot of people like to have Nat 20s mean something extra cool, so they usually mean instant success because it can spice up a session.
@@athroughzdude But that's entirely homebrew and not really relevant to a discussion of the rules.
@@arandombard1197 variant actually.
@@arandombard1197 It's relevant because most people don't play by the rules completely.
I rarely ever play DND because of COVID but I love watching those videos! Thanks for making these
Yet he doesn't talk about players starting with passive perception of 20 and making it almost impossible for the dm to hide traps or monsters.
Yeah I have a star druid doing exacttly this in a Curse of Strahd campaign I'm running. All the other players call the druid "the security camera". I've just leaned into it at this point, I don't even bother. Every room starts with the normal description and then "Druid, you also notice...." :P
Yeah they're allowed. What's the big deal. Use a stealth proficient foe
Oh, so you've played with someone like me who goes Variant Human for the Observant feat at 1st level while raising INT & WIS as high as not detrimental (my last 5e character was a V.Human rogue that did this very same schtick, my passive perception and investigation at 1st level were both 21 as I could only afford starting 14s via point-buy without seriously dumping other important stats).
Edit forgot my character had expertise in both skills.
I don't see why you can't still pull it off - like maybe the druid notices something strange, but doesn't understand it as a trap? Cause usually checking for traps is investigation, right? And Monsters can still roll high stealth if that's what they're good at.
@@veggiedragon1000 At that point, I'd just try to be extra vague about the detail they notice so the player still has to work out if it's a trap or a secret door or what.
I wouldn't go "You notice the hidden swinging blade in the ceiling" but instead say "You notice one of the stone tiles on the floor is slightly higher than the others around it." Not to imply that you are, but just to add onto your comment.
I just wanna say I've been watching for a good while now and by god, your animation has improved incredibly as of late. It's remarkable. Keep up the great work, Zee!
1:55 doesn't that completely invalidate somebody's stealthy character, since they're capped by every worse party member all the time?
Only if they go as a group together. Stealthy characters are meant to sneak in alone
Not to mention it makes absolutely no sense.
Stuff like this is always up to the group though and cant be seen in an objective way. Thats why its important to play with people you like and you can agree with so everybody has fun.
Always be wary of public groups and stuff like that, enjoyable at times but bearing risk of disaster.
This is why you should just follow the rulebook and do group stealth checks instead. The stealthy PC can compensate for the unstealthy PC.
I've been using a passive stealth in my games for this exact reason. Believe it's episode 22 on my podcast EFP that I talk about. Makes things into a totally different game! Love your stuff, and keep on rocking!
Stellar video! I also appreciate your edits down below. This is a great conversation that my fellow DMs and I like to have.
Time to have it again!
1:24 - 1:31
During this part you mentioned how one person in a group that is sneaking around, if one person were to fail a roll on the enemies natural perception the whole group will be spotted and you offered some pretty good balancing solutions to solve that.
However I was looking through the PHB today and noticed that there is a official rule for “Group checks” on page 175, which pretty much says that if half the group is able to successfully roll they help guide the others that fail their rolls.
Besides my find in the PHB I love the animations and so far and you have helped me and some friends understand the game better in your videos.
Really enjoying this narrator model! He animates well and has a really good silhouette.
Also covering these wrongly assumed rules will probably be really helpful in the long-run.
Fuckin' 'ey, Zee. I just gotta say, watching your continued growth is amazing. The new and varied ways you make your character look towards the screen in particular are really interesting and help make the video really pop.
I like the Pathfinder one for group stealth. This is meant for out of combat but can be applied to combat: The main stealth guy uses stealth and the others take the action "follow the expert". In the written rules follow the expert allows them to just use the leader's stealth roll to proceed. If you want, you can have those who do "follow the expert" to roll a very easy thing to see how well they follow the expert. Maybe a DC 5 intellingence or wisdom check or something. They aren't moving quietly with their own knowledge but following the expert.
I would also add another phase to sneaking: when you fail you aren't immediately known and suspicious and attacked. Failing means you've been detected. Now if it's a group of hostile creatures and you're within line of sight they will probably attack.
BUT if you're just walking around the place generally, detection means you've been heard or something you've done has been detected, they found your grappling hook and rope, they heard a sound, talking or steps, or a bird flew away and caught the guards' attention or something. Now your players can try and make themselves undetected again: make more bird noises, cast an illusion of a cat chasing said birds, disguise themselves, hide under tarps or in boxes, whatever. If their idea is good and they succeed in a disguise or stealth check, they're able to be undetected again.
Something I'd like to contribute that Zee didn't mention in his comment is that I don't think passives work in the way he's describing them. The PHB says it's a floor _when dice aren't being rolled_. It also represents the average for a task done repeatedly. This is very significant. When, say, a guard isn't actively investigating something, he's on patrol. Repeatedly checking the areas where he has visibility, looking for something out of the ordinary, and then continues on his route. However, when you alert a guard, investigation is no longer repetitive. Because you're actively focused on seeking out and discovering the cause of what alerted you. This involves listening for noises, uncovering covered objects, and actively scanning for something that matches what alerted you. This is where dice rolls come in. Because a dice roll could represent things like a rat falling off a shelf and making a noise, a guard responding to a buddy asking if he saw anything, a guard just so happening to not be looking where you're sneaking, the guard sneezing and losing his focus, etc. Because even when you're searching for something, you're not putting 100% of your focus on it 100% of the time. Things can distract you for a couple of seconds or you can stop looking for a minute to think about other places where the thing you're finding might be. And that's why Passive Perception can be overruled by the dice.
Your videos are really great for your ADHD viewers man. The pacing, length, everything is just perfect for quick and active engagement/education. Gotta love it.
These are great ways to do perception. Thank you
Thank you for this video! By the time I slogged through the PHB to figure out how races and classes and equipment and combat and, and, and... worked, I completely missed how passive perception worked 'as written'. Heck, to really cement in the knowledge after watching the video, I still had to flip back and forth across three to five pages to refer to all of the things that influence those situations.
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It's a shame it is like that, because the rules for it could fit on an index card if it was all gathered together.
I know you had this art style in the last video too, but Daaaaaaaaaamn your art just keeps getting better and crisper. Great job overall 👍
I think something that could help here is found in actual ninja tactics: planning ahead.
By having your scout spend a day to observe the enemy, they can use their investigation checks to observe where and when the least experienced guards are posted while noting guard rotations.
Rather than try to stealth as a group, you break the taboo and have all stealthy fighters sneak in through their own path to achieve their own objective, like sneaking into the jail with a cape of the mounteback, or get the goods.
3, Use your clunky allies as an advantage. By distracting the guards and keeping them detained, your clunky battlemaster can actually provide disadvantage on passive perception and the help action to every stealth roll. Though they might get caught, the guards will believe it as a victory and throw them in jail as bait, where another ally is already waiting to bust them out.
“Skull fucked in by the action economy” is such a powerful yet accurate statement
I actually do use this! My tweak though is that if something is spotted by your passive, but not by your roll, you don't know exactly what tweaked it. So unless it's super obvious, you just know something aint right. It's like when you hear a noise, or see something move from the corner of your eye, you know somethings there, but you can't just point at it and say what (that's what an active roll or investigation gets you). I've found this works well, and helps get people moving around and looking for things, without me just telling people what they notice. This way the players have to use their brain, along with their character sheet, and that's always nice.
It can also lead to false positives, a high passive perception means you notice a lot, so if someone makes some noise (the classic thrown rock) you notice that, but if you're busy noticing that, you might not notice them slip behind you. Same thing in a crowded market. High perception means you notice a lot of what's going on, lots of little details others miss. But which ones are important, which ones the thing you should notice? That's on the player to hear the signal through the noise.) I keep most of this true for NPC/Monsters, which means PC's can use tricks or noise to overwhelm seekers without me having to think too hard about each creature.
Thank you for this, as a new DM I have been doing this wrong and now know better!
Zee the movements are so well done man, those head turn frames look great :)
I'm definitely gunna try out these changes. Thanks!
Got to say guys really loving the new animation style you’re doing a great job keep it up love your work
What my group does for group stealth is we take the average of the roll with the implication of the sneakier buggers compensating and helping the clunkier ones. Helping them out or pointing to places to sneak to. You know, like playing red light green light sort of deal. This can lead to some incredible clench moments where we've snuck through half a dungeon to ensure that we're fresh as a daisy for a boss fight and then slowly, and quietly barricading a door to not only stop reinfocements coming in but muffle sound so that we don't end up with half a dungeon dropping on us like the wrath of god.
At the end of a campaign we were down to three characters and took huge advantage of this with a lightly armoured, crossbow master Champion Fighter, a Mastermind Rogue with a magic throwing knife of returning and a BURLY Hunter Ranger with a battleaxe. We ghosted through a dungeon outright lying our way through checkpoints, sending entire patrols on wild goose chases, (we had those ogres so convinced we were trustworthy we basically had them running laps) if we didn't think we could sneak it and faced off against the end boss with full hitpoints, spells and magic weapon charges. Couple that with out Champion Fighter's tendency to ALWAYS CRIT and my BRUTAL sneak attacks on top of the Rangers consistent damage and we tore that elemental prince to pieces.
Absolutely LOVING the new animation style, so hypnotizing~ owo
I really enjoy the style of animation youve found good job!
Animation looks amazing in this vid! Good job man!
Looking forward to the new material. And thank you for this
I like to use Location Alertness as a homebrew rule. Essentially, a location starts at 0 Alertness. (It can actually go negative if players take actions to sabotage the location's security, and it can also start at higher numbers if the players do something that would put the security on higher alert before the stealth section)
Any time some either individually fails a stealth check or more than half the players as a group fail a stealth check AGAINST ACTIVE PERCEPTION, the alert level raises.
0 means that guards take their normal patrol and use passive perception (but passive perception only allows them to take a perception roll if someone rolls below passive perception).
1 means guards begin to deviate and "investigate" disturbances (failed checks or distractions.) They still use passive perception but can now choose to use active perception at the GM's discretion.
2 means the guards are alerted and now abandon patrols to pursue disturbances. They roll active perception aggressively as they look for an intruder. Essentially they are aware someone is here, but they don't know where they are. Guards also will have their weapons drawn and will use perception enhancing spells or abilities as necessary.
3 is full alert. Party or individual has been spotted. All guards with alert level 3 will pursue the trespasser to initiate combat.
I've found it makes stealth have a sort of building tension but doesn't immediately punish players for failing a single save. There's nice, tense moments but the rogue doesn't get instantly vaporized because they rolled below someone's passive perception.
Thank you for your videos! You create great work sir!!
It's funny to hear you use the passive rules during checks, because no group I played with seemed to use it. (which was frustrating as a druid with high passive perception but always rolled under nat 10.)
An over 3 min video in 10 hours???? damn. nice work! Animating anything this long in 10 hours is a heck of a lot.
that's why pass without trace as a spell is so good. It makes everyone into stealth experts, and if we use the group rolls rule, i.e success if 1/2 of the party succeed on the roll, then the ability to ambush an enemy and make them surprised becomes very real. With just one second level spell, you essentially get 1 turn over the enemy, and the glommstalkers (who have the spell on their list) and assassin rogues get a massive nova turn
It was great seeing the episode being released after watching you work on it on Twitch. Great one
The Grim Hollow illustrations do look beautiful. And 😂 the construction. Well handled.
Love the background music you put into this one, Zee. Keep up the good work!
I've always wondered what passive perception was for...
The animation is astounding~
I am as allways, impressed with the animation!
Ok, can we talk about how well that beard was animated?
Cause most people skimp on animating that kind of thing, and it looked great in my eyes.
Favorite use of the phrase "skull f*ucked in by the action economy" yet.
A point on sneaking in groups: If you've ever snuck around in real life; whoever is "on point" in your marching order should have their bonus apply to the other members of the party or at least a fraction of it. Here's the logic behind that; when you have to evade detection in a group, the furthest ahead in the group will be the one to detect what one could call "micro-obstacles" and direct those behind them in formation away from them. Shattered glass on the ground, a stray bottle or notably large stone, and even just plain ole brittle foliage isn't difficult to navigate around if the person ahead of you has already done so in eyeshot and communicated to you how to do the same. Even assuming that the group isn't moving in a single-file, it's always best to have a "point man" to feel out the thin ice ahead and direct everyone else by means of simple hand signals or whispering or other means of communication with low audibility. I like the table rule of having a round to hide before being fully detected, as even a second of hearing a clear human voice could be dismissed as "maybe that's not what I actually heard" by common guard at the end of his shift and I've had real-life close calls where even after being clearly spotted, just the act of hiding resulted in the sentry assuming that my group simply left.
Thanks for these ideas!
Off topic: I must admit that I do prefer your normal style of drawing - even though the bouncy beard and light effects look complex, but the character has not as much cartoonish flair and immediate aura of awesomeness as your normal characters! =D
I'm really digging the new style zee. It looks really nice
we always use group rolls for stealth (which upon reading comments is an official ruling!) just because it's not really fair to cut off stealth from those who specced into that aspect of the game, just because one of your party members wants to be a tanky fella in heavy armor. instead of 1 guy ruining it for everybody else, the others are helping keep the 1 guy quieter than he would be on his own. We usually roleplay that they stay far towards the back furthest away from people we are sneaking around : )
The perfect thing to wake up to. Thank you!
thanks for your thoughts on the matter, and the beautiful animation^^
Rolling lower than your passive perception totally makes sense though. If you are actively searching, you may not notice the things you aren't focused on. So if you are looking harder, but in the wrong area, people can still sneak by.
Good suggestions! Particularly about Passive Perception.