Future of Urban Warfare w/ John Spencer Ep: 2
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 มิ.ย. 2021
- John Spencer is the Chair of Urban Warfare Studies, Modern War Institute
and the author of "Connected Soldiers" in this episode of our podcast John and Chris talk about the past present and future of urban warfare.
John Spencer:
mwi.usma.edu/category/podcasts/
/ spencerguard
Chris Cappy:
/ cappyarmy
Want more fun military content and news? Follow Task & Purpose!
Main Channel: / taskandpurpose
taskandpurpose.com/ - บันเทิง
As an Azerbaijani, I was surprised and very honored for the discussion on the Battle of Shusha and our operation for that battle. In general, this was a very interesting episode👍
I’m here after listening to John on Cleared Hot.
This podcast was before the Ruski Camping trip. Good stuff
The quote is from World War Two, where the British Army in Normandy became known for destroying French cities in order to liberate them. "... City of Caen, obliterated by Arial bombing; ...another liberated city."
The term may be from the twenties, however, from the debate in those days, about the future of air bombing. Back then, military experts assumed it would be realistic to completely destroy a city by air.
Cities are very vulnerable. Most get their water, power and all of their food from outside. If you cut off those, most modern cities will tear themselves apart in a short period of time.
Your mom eats alot, can I help you sir?
@@TaskPurpose1stSquad we tried that method with your mom, can I help ya sir?
@@TaskPurpose1stSquad Pretty much but modern cities are much more vulnerable due to the higher density of people living there. Plus people in medieval times generally expected sieges and were somewhat prepared for them. Just think about how quickly disease would spread in a modern city if you just shut down the water supply. No water to drink and no way to flush the toilets. Imagine that in Manhattan it would get pretty stinky quickly.
But the US/NATO do not fight wars of annihilation. You don’t stabilize a country by besieging it to the point of starvation. That’s how you make new enemies.
That works about as well as strategic/ terror bombing.. Because it is so vital industrialised cities have very resilient supply chains. And if you succeed... you have just committed the war crime of genocide.
Cool and literally first 🥇! Wish for video about how would future jungle warfare be like in the future?
@@TaskPurpose1stSquad ya welcome man and cool. As well as survive in deadly marshlands such as the fictional Amphibia from Disney too.
Literal hell.
As a Frenchman having GIGN and sentinelles makes me feel more confident and safe, plus Germany as a very close ally.
Sounds dumb, but I like it
CV90-40 with infantry is basically perfect for Urban combat.
I was with a British Major attached to my brigade talking about Combined Arms Tactics and other concepts related to this gentleman's field of study. Coordinated overwhelming force by trained personnel, has fantasic effect. A simple combo of drones, comms, indirect fire and snipers have amazing effect on sustained urban ops. I was also a member of 536th Engineer Battalion (The Nation Builders).
this feels both relevant and close to home. and that scares me.
Xd
And two “grunts” know it too
Maginot Line anyone ?🤣?
@Anonymous Panacea different mentality. The Hostage Rescue Teams are looking to save people. Also to fight in a city it would have to include more than a squad or even a platoon. Combined arms to look at more than one building. The surrounding blocks have to be observed. If their are tunnels under the building. SWAT is not enough.
Your mom scares me
Absolutely love this kinda content keep it up
Interesting stuff. Good points about combined arms and current urban tactics, and the example of Grozny.
Thank you for this discussion.
This was a very captivating and educational interview!
I wonder if it'd be possible to get Task and Purpose hooked up with the SEAL podcasters (like Mike Ritland, Shawn Ryan, Andy Stumpf, and Jocko Willink). You go into a similar line of talks (without trying to sell me fitness suppliments) but you would also offer a perspective they cannot. Those guys are all part of a specific community. Their stuff is inherently interesting...but a small part of the actual Military. Meanwhile someone like Cappy went to the same war those guys did, but in different role that for some reason doesn't get the same coverage the SEALS do. I think it would be interesting to see Cappy shoot the shit with the SEALS, and possibly open up some interesting opportunities for all parties involved.
I don’t want to see cappy with the little girls of the military. Is there actually anyone who respects SEALs anymore? They leave their own behind, they lie about it, task force bruiser, and much more.
Great stuff! 👍 Really interesting chat😎
Ik initial channel growth is slow but pls keep this type of content up there’s great things in the future for the channel and alor of people that want to hear these types of conversations.
The marines used to have something called ULC or Urban Leaders Course. It was recently just canceled unfortunately.
Why was it canceled?
@@cm-pr2ys no idea
Again. War is hell AND planning for war is hell.
You should interview some of the Ukrainian veterans - they've been involved in tons of CQB combat - in forests, in trenches, and in buildings. I would also note that so far, none of the many Strykers that we've given to the Ukraine have shown up in the front lines. I wonder where they are, probably being used only to ferry supplies in the rear lines.
Hey chris man, love the podcast man. Any chance you could upload the audio to a Spotify podcast in the future? Would love to listen to it in the car and while going to work
Just set the quality to 140p and put your phone in your pocket or what ever, works the same.
The most simple solution is to train 3 brigades and outfit them specifically for urban warfare.
@@mrd7067
US Army Infantry School (ITB) is considering going to 6 months.
Yet, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm referring to how the units train through their cycle, not basic training.
Love listening to this during my workout session. Is there a possobilty Jocko Willink will get featured in this channel? Great work as always Cappy, keep it up!
Okay, but almost all the modern example that you talked about are either Tier 2 forces or Asymmetric. Isn't the last Tier 1 on Tier 1 opponent in a major city really Stalingrad? Isn't that the model to start with for this near peer urban combat?
Crappy I would love it if you did an overview of limited penetration cqb like what project gecko is teaching and if and how that differs from mout etc…
Is this on spotify?
26:00 that situation is called a siege. How many tactics can be recycled from old, known, tactics?
Excellent content, Cappy and John!
We really should take lessons from Israel in urban warfare, they been doing since start of post WW2.
@@TaskPurpose1stSquad I didn't mean what weapon to use, I mean the strategy and tactics.
that urban warfare studies dude should be financed by some tech billionare to to start a company that hire some game designers and coders to build some computer game that tests crazy ideas that urban warfare studies people dreams up, then they could make money by contracting those games to the urban warfare studies organisation
If you put slat armor on a Stryker it can do well in urban environments
If enemy only has rpg7, but rpg29 and others with tandem warheads is a different story. And some IEDs worth half a ton.
@@neiljasonvillanueva1864 But they were talking about our fighting insurgents which are armed mostly with RPG 7
Sounds like judge dredd stuff mega cities
@@TaskPurpose1stSquad use it on the next one brother
What are your thoughts on when we are actually going to go to war. I’m leaving for Ft. Benning GA, as an 11b in 2 days and the one thing I’m always thinking of is When. I know we are kind of in the peace time of war, I know that I’m going to be an infantryman, I know what my job is and what I’m doing but I’m always just thinking, When, not how. Do you think it’s going to be in the next Year, or 5 years, 10, or maybe longer?
No one can see the future. You just have to prepare yourself and your family for any possibility. Also for the things no one can foresee. Make sure your paperwork is in order. You know the people to the right and left of you. You understand what your leadership wants you to do. Remember Basic. Do not anticipate the orders. Just be ready to carry them out. Good Luck.
Weird, I was unsubrscibed from your channels, I was like where is Cappy?
Just to be clear kids, you shouldn't fire Karl Gustav indoors.
If they do make a course for underground or tunnel warfare they should name it the Tunnel Rat School as to pay homage to a few brave servicemen. But I agree we need more expertise in the urban sector.
I think they found your mom in a tunnel.
Where is episode 1?
He named them weird. This is episode 2 of the podcast not episode 2 of talking with this guy
I wholly disagree with John on the use of a VR training course which I think maybe a misunderstanding on his part he used CoD as a counterpoint to that example, but what I think Chris was getting at was something to the effect of Arma in a VR spectrum which can and does make use of combined arms in urban environments like John was emphasizing earlier.
It would be far more cost effect to use and train on while very easily being able to add nearly any and all different kinds of variables to as opposed to a traditional brick and mortar urban area specifically built for training purposes like we have done in the past.
For example if we had to go to war with China do you think the military is gonna foot the bill to build a brick and motor version of Shanghai complete with skyscrapers? Hell no could you make the city in a virtual space for a fraction of the cost down to the finest detail? Yes and you could use it over and over without having to ever worry about damage or reconstruction costs or any troops injuring themselves or equipment breaking down and needing to be repaired during the training.
Not to mention the logistical benefit of it not having to ferry troops and equipment from every base across the country to a single location and instead being able to join into the training simulation from wherever their currently stationed at.
If hes still against that kind of idea I don't know what to say to John maybe it will take something akin to a Star Trek holodeck to convince him.
Department of defense sponsored fps when
@@Ekdrink I mean... technically they already did it back in the early 00's with the America's Army series.
First thing to happen if a city is being invaded by a numerically superior force - every intersection is going to be blown to hell. Create a big ass hole, makes a physical choke point (more than barricades will), engineers have to come in to bridge it, tanks then easy target with airborne IED. Forces a ground fight funnelled through buildings, while offsetting and hiding your own assets until required. That’s where it’s won or lost. And no one is thinking vertically really, we should be. It’s a complex 3 axis environment.
People think of urban wrong. It’s more about the materials and obstacles than anything else, situational awareness and “terrain knowledge” closely after those..the populace is also a very big issue in the modern world as anyone can have anything these days. Technology is cheap and accessible. People could remotely 3Dprint “sentry guns”, barricades and UGV/UAV.
Let’s not even get started on the electromagnetic spectrum or patterns of life or political/religious/national/economic/social implications or affiliations haahaaaa.
The problem is training facilities - and the IVAS system they hope is a solution. It is not. It’s a bandaid for inadequate training, doctrine and innovation.
Useful, yes - solution? No.
New thinking is required, and maybe some architects/more engineers.
They gonna stick the rifle around a corner without even thinking of what material they are standing next too…Can they be shot through it? Shot from a roof? Who has eyes on? Are there enemy drones nearby (that they know of), how long have they been standing in the open on a corner….and 100 other questions.
“Indiscriminate fire” or “shoot them through the wall” enabled by drones and ISR/Cyber and will become common place.
You need a combined arms training facility - that is both nothing, but enables everything, and I do mean everything, realistically - at once (ex grunt)
I have this. If you can find me - maybe we can talk, depending who you are.
The smoking comment was brilliant. Haha.
Synthetic environments - even if executed perfectly miss one key, stupidly simple element its almost laughable when you realise, and then becomes sad when you realise the implications on human decision making and training, by missing this one thing.
They are not physical, and if they are - they operate on a flat, one axis plane.
Literally nothing in our world except car parks and salt lakes have this.
How does one imply a sense of danger when they know they are never, never going to encounter, let alone collide with an obstacle except virtually/visually?
What does that do to your brain in a combat situation, even a training situation? What happens if that training becomes the norm? When the shit hits the fan….brown, all over the place.
There must be consequences. Physical. Painful (hopefully not too much). Simmunition is great for this reason alone.
Go to your nearest car park and close your eyes, you feel your feet, the wind, where your limbs are, your clothes, maybe some heat, hear some noises - now if when you opened your eyes you saw a different complex environment, and then proceeded to move through it - you’re gonna have a bad time.
Either digitally, physically - or both.
And no, IVAS does not get rid of this problem, it comes with an entirely new set, that also has its own set…and so on. (Architecture/cyber/weight/energy/training areas/cost/security etc etc)
But even if you make all those perfect - you still need new and different training infrastructure, as once a layout or “terrain knowledge” is learned, training value is lost. Immediately. Doesn’t matter where you put the guy with the AK.
Sure you can present different “dilemmas” by moving or adding more, but this is not enough.
That’s literally how people get good at call of duty. They understand where everything is, and how they can exploit it.
It’s also why they build mock-ups for HVT raids.
If you have fixed, linear training facilities (even VR/AR) - things stagnate real quick, and if you don’t have to physically negotiate terrain as you would in real life - you are feeding a false sense of capability while loosing many important physiological and psychological human factors that impact cognitive load, which has an array of flow on effects when considered from a combined arms viewpoint, or even individual soldier level.
10 points to Griffendoor if you read this far. Gold star for you.
John Spencer, taking a bad idea and making it worse. An airlift capable "stryker". Do you have articles about assaulting skyscrapers? The idea of short range helicopters able to carry infantry and protected by reactive armor. I did say a bad idea🤷🏿.
how did fight without tanks
@@TaskPurpose1stSquad then how they can’t take out enemy tanks
John Spencer is my uncle-in-law (well, will be). I'm not even kidding. I'm engaged to his niece.
Can you get me his email lol? Not even kidding
Chris Cappy, please can you discuss about Taiwan war. This is most likely to happen after 2022 Bejing olympics. China seeks to reunify it's so called 'breakaway province'. Will US sent troops to protect democratic island of Taiwan from invasion or what will be our option at disposal ?
That’s why I think this video is so important, I think the only hope is urban warfare because I don’t think they can gain controls on the beach, air, or sea
don't worry. there won't be any war with china. taiwan will be invaded and the us government along with the rest of the world will just rattle their sabers to put up a good show.
@@guillermoelnino thats still pretty terrible for all the people living there and my relatives.
@@testserver2054 i dont like it either, but i dont see anybody doing anything about it.
This is what is gonna happen. All our feminized politicians will shake their saggy bingo wing arms at them, give a few speeches to calm the frustration of the docile normies and then continue to sell parts of the country to them cause they’re all on their payroll.
I kinda disagree about the defense point. Defense of anything isn't a battle drill becuase battle drills are to be trained and rehearsed and able to be conducted by a unit at the drop of a hat without planning. Defense has to be tailored to the area you're defending and if it's a defense and not a react to contact you have time to prepare and set in your sectors of fire and secondary defensive positions etc. We absolutely have doctrine for that, read your bibles grunts come on there's a whole chapter on defense. And iirc the principles of defensivr operations apply to really any terrain or environment it isn't like assaulting a building where that doesn't work on a forest, defensive planning considerations are the same wherever you are you just have to bring your thinking caps. Granted we might not practice it that often, once a year at jrtc and whenever you have a 1sg with a wild hair up his ass, but saying you've never heard of that is weird coming from an infantryman, I've definitely done defensive operations in mout villages more than I've dug gun positions in the woods honestly.
I am sorry I feel so bad after saying that it’s your income that’s affected my bad bro I will send you silver if ya want
16 advertisement absolutely scandalous bro why man xx
@@TaskPurpose1stSquad bro I will watch them all sorry I love your shit didn’t mean to offend ya bro it’s just people see advertisement and then stop watching that’s all xx
Hold airport of city donb ass, allepo high ground siege urban river city best defense
The weapon you are searching for is the Flamethrower...but you can't roast people anymore evidently.
We also don't hang people anymore, why do I get the feeling that that bothers you too though?
@@DickChimney Go sober up prior to posting.
@@JMark-zk5pj Lol what? Come on buddy, you can do better than that...
7:49 ONLY when a coward is at the controls.
Any one worth their salt knows if the bad guys are hiding and shooting from a building: if the building is collapsing in on itself they’ll stop shooting.
Anything else is being more concerned about enemies buildings and infrastructure than American/ coalition forces.
Most should remember stories about not leveling the historical building just because it’s 500 years old the center high ground in town and they’re shooting at us from it.
Something I’ve never heard discussed is the probability that in a real “near-peer” war, fighting will happen in American cities. Better know how to defend a city if it’s Washington DC.
If the US soil gets invaded then we have firmly lost the war.
Fair enough. I probably should have said the tiny possibility of fighting at home. The arc of history is long though and warfare is always evolving.
Flamethrower will make a comeback in urban warfare. You will see
Didn’t your county win ww2 by bombing Japan?
Bombing was more of a contributing factor which degraded Japan's industrial capabilities. Japan was losing on all fronts so they really didn't have any other choice then to surrender. They would not have surrendered if their military and territorial concessions remained intact