MORE INFORMATION On the Saudi Arabian Gold Books
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ก.ย. 2024
- RESERVE YOUR BOOK HERE: lp.constantcon...
In this episode Hayden Paul and David Butler discuss the discoveries of gold plates and other metal books in Saudi Arabia. The original video can be found on @aroodawakening
The Stick of Joseph TH-cam channel seeks to make the Book of Mormon accessible to all ages by making engaging, entertaining and informative content.
Like, subscribe and follow us on Instagram under the handle of @thestickofjoseph
#jesus #christ #jesuschrist #bookofmormon #mormon #thechurchofjesuschristoflatterdaysaints #lds #scriptures #bookofmormonevidences #bookofmormonarchaeology #archaeology #stickofjoseph #thestickofjoseph #lehi #nephi #sariah #laman #lemuel #josephsmith #laban #sword #swordoflaban #waynemay #bookofmormongeography #bookofmormoncentral #bookofmormonstories #heartland #heartlandtheory #hopewell #mounds #moundbuilders #hopewellmoundbuilders #adena #smithsonian #mesoamerica #maya #mayan #decendinggod #god #faith #resurrection #christian #ancient #ancienthistory #ancientcivilizations #amazon #seerstone #urimandthummim #temple #templeofsolomon #jewish #jewishhistory
I love the story. It’s fun. My relationship with the Lord is not in danger because of this also I still know the Book of Mormon is true because the Spirit told me so.
Me too
What do you tell the Muslims and Jehovah witnesses that have also recieved a revelation from God that what they believe is true? I tell them nothing, but what the word says...
Jeremiah 17:9
'The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?'
When we stray from Christs teachings.. we open ourselves up to being deceived.
Much love to you.. come to Christ and you will no longer be deceived. If you would like scriptural proof J. Smith is a false prophet see the test of a prophet in deuteronomy.
@@29darbsj galatians 1:6-9
Galatians 1:6-9
There are many deceiving spirits. Be careful and wise to not believe the lies.
2 Corinthians 11:14
I like the $3 vs $5 forgery analogy! My undergraduate degree was in anthropology, and I've had such a love for history and culture even after deviating from that career path. In my years of nerding out, I've noticed that forgeries often still hold some historical significance. A fake is often created from an original (whether the seller/manufacturer has the original or is basing it off of photos or documents or oral history). It's easier to sell a fake that's true to the original ($5 forgery) than one they came up with out of thin air or from really questionable sources ($3 forgery).
(I'm not suggesting that we throw out the historical and scientific analyses, and just claim these are real because we like them.)
Whether these plates are genuine or recreations/forgeries, there's still a lot of spiritual and historical value to glean!
exactly. if it’s a fake it’s a fake if something that is real.
@@scottmainsmusic1892 unbelievable how seemingly intelligent people are willing to believe the most outrageous things simply because the alternative would be too difficult to handle. Why dont you just pray about it? That is the LDS epistemological test. If you feel good, it has to be true regardless of what the experts say.
@@Geoff-mx8dkthe more you experience prayer the better you will understand it is not just a feeling.
"it fits within the realm of possible artifacts" ehhhhh if we're talking the Land of Makebelieve, maybe. These are almost certainly forgeries.
Because? Easy to use words. Back them up. What specifically leads to forgery conclusion?
@@iknovate nearly everything about them ans the situation including the embossing technique and script used as well as the past history of these fellows having has fakes...
@@RyanMercer Sources to back up what you've said so that we can decide for ourselves? Where has it been established the sellers have a history of bringing forth forgeries? Who has questioned the engraving technique? Again, you've offered your conclusions, not anything to support why you've come to these conclusions.
@@iknovate you're welcome to do the research yourself. It's everywhere.
@@RyanMercer Typical non-response.
I am a believer. I am SO excited about this find! I feel sorry for those who do not have eyes to see...Because the Lord is giving us signs left right and over our heads to wake us up, and get us as a whole to repent and FOLLOW HIM. I know the Book of Mormon is true, I had a life changing witness and have stayed on my covenant path now for 25 years. I can tell you I feel the spirit strongly on this find.
This and the BoM are clearly frauds. Sorry I know you’ve based your life on a fraud but you’ll be okay.
LOL. You feel the spirit strongly on this find? And in there is the problem. Members and nonmembers of other faiths feel the spirit and then think something is true because of that feeling. LOL. These little gold plates are fake!!!!! LOL.
It's very likely a fraud.
@@timhazeltine3256 I wouldn't jump to that conclusion yet. We were promised that more would surface in the future. I have a feeling this isn't a fraud at all. And the fact that it was found on the path that Lehi would have followed tells me it isn't a fraud at all. GOLD Plates, aren't commonly fraudulent for reasons you wouldn't have to stretch to imagine.
What other signs?
Hey I’m part of the translation team. I help Dr. Jones get some other photos of other tablets. I could add more information about these situations.
Refute Dan McClellen with real info like he presents then. These are obvious forgeries.
For people of faith, we know how to seek confirmation of truth: prayer. It IS that simple. It is when political factions get involved, that seeds of doubt are put out there. Every person who has real intent to know truth, has access to know truth, through prayer and the power of the Holy Ghost.
I look to the Prophet also, because I’ve received an answer from God that he is my guide for Gods kingdom today. I also trust in the scriptures we have now.
I 222e22222d222222222222222 @@templesofjesus
Have you prayed about the Kinderhook plates yet?
This is a cool discovery if it’s real. But I don’t pray about these things. It’s science, archeology. It may validate information in the Book of Mormon. No evidence will ever prove the Book of Mormon’s truth. That’s a spiritual journey. Even if the plates of Mormon fell into the hands scientists, they would find a way to dismiss them. I think if Christ handed them to some people, they would still tell Him they weren’t real. So, cool discovery..yes. There will never be a smoking gun!
@@soultaker76 weird innit? Their "prophets" and "apostles" are alleged seers and revelators yet they knew not of these forgeries.
Yes, have to authenticate closely and carefully.
we believe all things. we hope all things. we have endured many things and hope to be able to endure all things.
I really love how the young men from the mormon church go out and share the word of GOD when they turn of age. The walk is what matters.
@@dirkjensen969 but the adults don't know anything either. Lmao 🤣 I have not met 1 arrogant mormon person in my life. Very humble God loving people from my experience.
@@dirkjensen969 not at all. D&C 1 tells us that God uses the WEAK things of the world to confound the wise. That’s why 19 year olds are used. God is more interested in making THEM strong through adversity than converting every person. Those who hear will hear, even from a weak 19 year old.
The missionaries give the message, if the person is able to hear and willing to read and pray, the Holy Ghost will bear witness of the truth.
@@dirkjensen969 Christ is able to do HIS OWN work. We participate in the process but are not the Shepherd. No one is sending them into the wilderness. God is in charge. If it weren’t for me serving a mission as a young person, I would have been devoured by now.
@@dirkjensen969 that’s why we send them on missions. It strengthens those young men and women more than anything. Strong families is the strength of the Church. Which is why the missionary program exists at all.
Reading the Book of Mormon again and making a note of every reference to metal, brass and gold plates to identify the markers for identifying the 24 gold plates mentioned in the book of Ether would be a good idea.
Fun new way to study!
@@sama.scraps Absolutely! 👍
Thank you. Don’t worry about the negativity from nay sayers. Evidence for the Book of Mormon is the book itself.
Galatians 1 :6-9
@@-Letitkillyou- Irrelevant.
@@-Letitkillyou- if only the council of Nicaea read those verses…
@@Signal_Lost. on the contrary. You think that Bible passage was talking about exactly what the Mormon church claims to have been founded on? Revelation by an angel Moroni or something?
@DailyDoseofGod. The Gospel is that Jesus came down from Heaven, suffered for our sins, died for us, and then rose again. Everything else is peripheral. Angel Moroni came and preached exactly that. Galatians 1:6-9 talks about the opposite and warns us about false prophets like Muhammed and false scripture like the Quran.
So glad you guys are willing to review new information as it comes out, shows a lot of integrity
Or, here’s an idea. Before spreading this on their public platform, they could do some due diligence? What a novel idea.
There was no new information here. They just got around to realizing Dr Miles Jones is an absolute fraud and they’re trying to backtrack.
Now if only they would review OLD information before making a video about something that is obviously false; and leading so many to believe those falsehoods.
@@MaliqueDonSuch as?
Thanks for your testimonies of the Savior and his Church and our precious B of M. And your endless studies of history, artifacts, and evidence of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon!❤❤
They are too ignorant to be embarrassed. Their justification is ridiculous. Notice they don't even dare give rather name of the Hebrew scholar they claim they talked to. That's called a red flag.
8:22, 17:33 Tha's an excellent point. The sellers were not like Mark Hofmann or the makers of the Kinderhook plates that specifically targeted us with an artifact or document that we would believe plausable.
I think the fact that these were offered up to someone who is not LDS but does have some biblical, and Hebrew knowledge makes it more credible. I think this actually would help the case.
@@csluau5913 Totally agree!
Why didn’t this person just take these to a museum ? That tells you all you need to know
In Saudi-Arabia? I trust Saudi-Arabia more regarding ancient artefacts, but if you would bring something really ancient to the museum in America, I fear it would disappear through the "trusting" hands of the Smithsonian Institute. Specially if it would speak against mainstream history.
@@magistradox39Conspiracy theory much? Or, based on your user name, are you being sarcastic?🤞
@@magistradox39 any respected world museum... I couldn't care less. There are experts all over the world in authenticating antiquities. This would be an easy solution, but since these tactics are meant to keep members of the church looking for 'buried treasure', yet never finding anything (sound like someone familiar??), you just keep them hoping and guessing without wanting to really find the truth. That is Morminism in 2024 unfortunately - no more critical thinkers
Or actual scholars! No, he goes on You Tube first???😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅
The "Lehi sanario" i like that.
Imagine if someone who didn’t know English saw a document that said ROYGBIV. Gibberish!!
What?! You can't just say cryptic messages like that and expect us to gain anything from it. @@dirkjensen969
@@dirkjensen969I wish your comment were a bit more useful.
I appreciate you guys listening to experts coming out. I still have some criticisms about your approach, but I'm glad you guys are open to all perspectives. Keep up the good work!
Here's why i think they are fake, (just my opinion).
Authentic artifacts are not presented to the public via TH-cam, in fact it's quite the opposite. Researchers write articles, publish papers, and present at conferences. They do this to allow their findings to be scrutinized by others in their field and to answer questions. This is all part of the peer review process. Doing this also builds their reputation, and leads to career advancements and promotions, which is another reason this process is followed (yes even researchers want to make more money).
So, if I what i have is fake, how do I tell the world about my discovery without scrutiny from others? TH-cam of course.
Maybe I'm wrong, but the who thing is just a huge red flag.
I tend to agree with you but leave room for other incentives. Skipping the gate keepers may be a red flag but doesn’t prove intentional dishonesty. Admittedly, it doesn’t bode well for credibility or reputation either. Homo naledi comes to mind.
@@CornPopPomade Thanks and I agree, skipping the gatekeepers doesn't prove this is fraudulent, but the probability that it's authentic dramatically decreases (in my opinion).
I don't know the specifics of the homo naledi, was it announced via TH-cam?
if it's bought from a private collection or found on someone's private property then that would give me a little room to think "ok, there might be some truth to this". Not much truth, but enough to keep my interest, but not testimony, going
20:44 I would say though that the men who have been brought these artifacts ; weren’t primarily researchers. 🤷🏻♀️
30:45 like carrying a temple reccomend
You guys are awesome!
Very solid commentary. Super interested to see when further study verifies if these are legit or fake. We shall see!
The only evidence I need is the joy that comes from reading the Book of Mormon. When I read, my day is better and I am happier. What more could I ask for?
You’d be surprised how many people think $2 bills are forgeries 🤦♀️
Hahahahha I once worked with a person who didn’t know what to do with a $2 bill at the end of the shift. Had I been there (they apparently left a post it with “do not know how to proceed” on the bill for the opening manager in the morning), I would have swapped out two singles and taken it. $2 are so fun! My grandpa used to give them to us grandkids 😊 those and half dollars.
soft hearts. great reminder for all of us. meekness and lowliness of heart bringeth the visitation of the holy ghost.
I keep thinking about the closing scene from *_Raiders of the Lost Ark_* .
I am a lay person. Absolutely no ability to do what you two do, except that I could recognize the paleo Hebrew letters. 2 thoughts that came to me immedIately: was Jacob's ladder mentioned several times because they were descended from Jacob? And, Professor Anton couldn't translate the Book of Mormon.
This will be interesting to find more. If authentic, it has much affinity for 1st temple Judaism which is also found in the Book of Mormon. If fake, it is interesting the forger chose first temple Judaism items rather than the man made Deuteronomist revisions.
There are just So many haters out there. It’s unfortunate. I love this channel
Not haters, Christians who know that the LDS organization is irreconcilable with God's word. It's sad that you could fall for these hoaxes 100 times and not be moved an inch. Your testimony does not = truth.
I find that the skeptics are far more quick to consign forgery than the believers are to consign authenticity. I guess the skeptics have far more to lose
In this case it looks to just be very obvious to skeptics and professionals that it is a fraud. Not much time needed.
We skeptics have the obvious evidence of fraud. Believers are too quick to accept. Careful thinking left Mormonism a long time ago, and these 2 are proof it hadn't come back in some quarters.....
@@TheBackyardProfessor how do you expect anyone to take your comments seriously? First you have to stop with the name-calling and the petty remarks. I don’t believe you right off the bat, based upon the fact that you have not presented any evidence just made snarky remarks. So, where is your evidence? Give names, dates, cite sources and links please.
@@csluau5913 I will be presenting the evidence on my Live show "The Backyard Professor Responds" on Sunday night at 6 p.m. barring any unforseen difficulties.
I saw your triple dog challenge to appear on Ward Radio how. I would be more than happy to do so and explain why these things are forgeries and Mormon apologists have been suckered by them. I can't seem to find the post now however.
Super fun to watch you go through this stuff Dave. Brings back good memories from the school of the pseudo prophets in Genova. Best. Looking forward to your book
The well guy that dug our well used a dowser. It was a reputable company in N. California & the water was 600 feet down. He found water at 120 ft but the water wasn't very good, so he went deeper.
It totally is a gift, too! My dad helped some people in our ward decades ago when they were putting on an addition, and he just used a regular branch he found, and both he and the husband could find the buried pipes but nothing at all happened when the wife tried it. Kinda nuts! (I believe the utility company also came out and they shared their dowsed discoveries with them; it was mostly for fun and to kinda help speed along the work while they waited for the contractors).
You could have saved us all 49 minutes. Just say, "These are forgeries." Any inferences afterwards do not help your LDS theological viewpoints. It makes your position weaker. Don't build your house on sand. Ask the Church what happened when they went down the Mark Hoffman road!!
I was working with the water department of the City of Mesa years ago and one of the city employees was walking around an intersection with two bent copper rods. When the rods crossed he spray painted that location. That is where they started to dig. I asked him about it and he said he didn’t know how it works, but it does and he has used it for years.
I knew that would happen, It was a given. I believe they are real.
When will you be doing more interviews between the naysayers and the ones supporting the possible authenticity?
Great to see Dave again! You should make him a regular. At least once a month.
My only questions right now are 1. Is that material real gold and 2. How much is that gold worth by itself?
Exactly HOW do fakes give "value"? Other than the "value" of the gold the plates were made of. I mean, if these are forgeries intended to deceive people then I see very little "value" in them.
Let’s goooo!! One more day
How do I get in touch with you guys?
So where do I get my badge for watching everything (CES Letter's episodes included) in the channel and putting a like in every single one of them? I even went back to the first ones I watched to make sure I had hit that like button. Keep up your great work
Where is your brother? Is his substitute temporary or permanent? Love both your brother and his substitute.
46:28 That’s a great observation that should be taken into account
43:06 You know when you go to the temple and the temple workers have a card they can reference to make sure things are done correctly, that's what pops into my head, what if these are temple worker notes?
😂
I save concert tickets from some of my favorite artists. That is what pops into my head. What if this is a collection of a Hebrew man's ticket stubs from his favorite Arabian shows? Or, vice versa? Some Thamud dude was into Hebrew artists. Eather way, it would be faith promoting. Music has always been important within the church.
Hilarious that the last video called them Gold PLATES and now they're just called Gold BOOKS. lol
Is the reference of the first shall be last and the last shall be first a possible cypher/key/legend for understanding certain passages in addition to being prophetic in a variety of ways
Speaking of provenance they're concerned about its genealogy, but think of how the Book of Mormon came to us? The provenance is such an incredible story that an angel led him to a box on a hill! A construction worker would be a far more likely candidate in the Lord's eyes than a university.
This reminds me of my native Americans that braid their hair in a knot on their forehead. Look at current jews that have a tiny Torah on their foreheads. .
Also Muslims have tiny Qurans even smaller than these gold plates.
There are Muslims that say that the dead sea scrolls are fakes.
I love and share your channel.
"Ptovenance" = from the word "prove." Proving something = Paper Trail or Documenting the history of the item (a painting, for instance: is it really from the artist it portends to be from?; in archaeology, can you prove where this really came from, and its path from when it was found to the present time, can be proven).
Getting real Mark Hoffman vibes here.
just PLEASE don't let them get the plates in front of church leaders. That was embarrassing...
This is the moment when you want a perspective from Hugh Nibley as well.
Great job on the cyber btw....😮😅❤
Is it true the guys that were in that video have come forward with fake stuff in the past?
The only thing I’ve heard about is this thing called the Moses stone, which Miles Jordan was involved with, but not as a fabricator, just as an excited archeologist (I think). They mentioned it maybe 40-60 minutes into a discussion they did about these books on Ward Radio yesterday (“Everything we know about the Saudi Gold Plates”). I tried looking up the Moses stone, but all I came up with was some performance artist by that name 🤷♀️
Miles Jones is also part of a crew that is pretty certain that he real Mt Sinai is in Saudi Arabia, mt somethingstartswithJab (many strongly disagree with this assessment).
He seems like an enthusiastic archeologist who is sincere in his religious beliefs, which doesn’t usually go over well in most academic circles, nevermind archeology.
He's not an archeologist
There's plenty. Shabat Live has promoted the false claims of Ron Wyatt for decades. He claims to have found, among lots of others, the Ark of the Covenant, Noah's Ark, Jesus' actual blood, and the "real' Mt. Sinai. Dr. Miles Jones does not have credentials in ancient languages, but a degree in modern languages. He has promoted fraudulent artifacts in the past and is not respected in academia.
@@rodneyjamesmcguire huh
My mistake, he has a PhD in Foreign Languages and Linguistics from UTAustin and is an enthusiastic amateur intent on finding the Gospels in “the original Hebrew,” among other things.
SO, if the Saudis were aware of him and his tendency to forego peer review of artifacts and finds, then he’d be a perfect mark for such fakes like these gold books might turn out to be.
I think the lead books should be able to be tested for age (or at radioactive isotopes which will be an automatic disqualifier). As far as I know, gold can’t really be dated..? But maybe that depends on its purity. I have no idea.
The lead books at least sound like they’re similar to the Jordanian lead codices/books/tablets that have been tested as NOT made within the last 100 years (due to the lack of radioactive isotopes, the impurities in the lead, and other things observed scientifically). I’ve read one account that the impurities in the lead in the Jordan books seem to be consistent with Roman-era lead. It only took about a decade to clear the (materials, content still heavily disputed) the Jordanian books. Sooooo we’ll see about these Saudi books!
“If they are fake then it still supports the BoM!” What the hell are you guys smoking over here lol.
within the book of Mormon, think about the chain of custody because I’m not gonna use that fancy word. Of the jaredite record, it wasn’t found by Alma or his followers was found by people who didn’t listen to abenidi or Alma. It wasn’t any righteous group that discovered them initially.
They're forgeries. There are so many red flags of them being forgeries. Comparing the initial skepticism of the Dead Sea Scrolls to this find is disingenuous at worst and flatly erroneous at best.
My mother used a pair of pliers.
You guys are as excited as the Mark Hoffman salamander letter. I think we need actual tests on the materialfor age etc.first then content
I was skeptical about these plates because they had no provenance, there is no evidence of how they were acquired.
The Dead Sea scrolls/ archeologists were lead eventually to the site
Why would someone go through all that trouble to "just throw gold away"??? Hhhweirrrrd.. 😅 I was thinking of the dead sea scrolls the day I watched this as well... how long it took for the scrolls to be, "authenticated" by popular scholars. I suppose if these plates WERE of any true value, The Lord would have enabled this vision of truth to be given to the Prophet, possibly guiding him to receive those. I'm still waiting for Joseph Smith to finish the Book of Mormon. ❤
I keep seeing this type of comment, so I'll let in you in on a secret. If you can spend $4,000 to $5,000 dollars on a few ounces of gold then and create a fake relic, you can then sell the relic for $50,000 or more. Some of these fakes sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Yes, this is why they said, “if these are fakes it’s probably by the hands of the sellers, who could maybe get away with millions,” because the Shabbat Night Live people said they were shown piles of little books like these.
What do you about the preists of Baal that Jehu killed in 2nd kings actually being priests that believed in the brazen serpent and were labedeled priests of baal because of the affiation with the caananite gods? Baal was the son of god in the caananite belief.
Explain more .
Ba’al also translates as “lord/master/husband” and is in use in proverbs 31 (proverb of a virtuous woman), translated as “husband.” (And some 18th century theologians and a present-day lay LDS woman have come to the conclusion that the “husband” is Christ, if you look at Proverbs 31 as an allegory; Far Above Rubies by Tamara Uzelac Hall, if anyone’s looking for a symbolic look at an otherwise overwhelming bit of scripture)
But. The point of that story was it was a different understanding of god, and not the Israelite God. I believe they also believed the idols were imbued with power/WERE the god, which is why idol worship was such a no-no and thou shalt not have a graven image/other gods before me, and all that. The idol/image is not God. God is God, and is not found in figurines. Hence the altar to ba’al not igniting while the alter to YHWH lit right up, inspite of it being soaked with water.
I dunno, while I don’t believe God doesn’t love any of us humans “more” than others (just different expectations for those who’ve made covenants vs those who haven’t), I do believe it makes a different to whom you believe you are praying/worshipping.
The only thing I can think of as an example is my sister attending a women’s conference/gathering of sorts, I believe held on a reservation, or at least heavily attended by Native women (my family is of European descent). At the end, my sister said they held a prayer circle, and she remembers liking what they were saying (I think a generic prayer probably not addressed to “God” as such, but I don’t really know) and asking silently in her head, “Heavenly Father, please let their prayer be so,” or something, and she felt in response, “they’re not praying to Me,” to which she replied, “yes, but I am!” She’s a bit cheeky sometimes 😶 No idea what came of the prayer, but the point is intention/understanding seems to make a difference 🤷♀
@@gingersnaps215 I agree with what you're saying.
Amazing how the weak humble, simple people are making these wonderful finds - almost like the angels appearing to the humble shepherds to announce the Saviors first arrival !
The available evidence strongly points to this gold book being a fake. So, less meak and humble, and more gullible 😢
I feel that the menorah is NOT synonymous to the Tree of Life. It makes no sense to have one symbol (the menorah) symbolizing another symbol (the Tree of Life) which, in turn, is a symbol of Jesus. The design of the menorah is the clue to what it represents: Six arms of the menorah extends from the centre arm - or stem of the menorah. At the end of each arm there is an oil-lamp giving light. The central arm of the temple menorah is slightly higher than the other six arms. Further - the oil-container on the central arm is bigger than the oil-containers of the other six arms. The purpose of this being that the oil of the central arm should be sufficient to also be used to fill the oil-containers of the other six arms - so that they will never run out of the oil (in the which the wick of the lamp is immersed). The central arm, with its lamp (including the larger container) - represent Jesus Christ - who came in the meridian of time. The other six arms and lamps are the six angels who would sound a trump as their millennium begins. In other words - six arms represents six heads of six dispensations - three dispensations before the meridian of time - and three dispensations after the meridian of time dispensation. All six of these heads of dispensations are built upon the central dispensation - even Jesus. That is why they all are branching out from the center. If the meridian of time dispensation (which contains the Messiah) wasn't there - the six arms would fall to the ground - having no purpose. And without the larger container of oil of the Messiah-lamp - there would be no light shining from the six other lamps. There is much more to be said about this - but that will have to wait untill we meet or talk directly.
My heart is soft and my mind is open. I think this is fascinating !
The lady from scripture central has a video on the Gold book and she is saying they are fake but not mentioning these points
See "Scripture Central" and "Mormon Book Reviews" for good examples of critical and logical reviews. This episode was an even bigger disappointment than the first video this channel put out on this topic.
This episode does point out some concerns with the integrity of these plates but spends far more time bending over backward and stretching credulity to justify why these concerns could be wrong.
How many grape leaves around the edge? 24?
Haha...its a win-win! Just one win is WAY cooler than the other win. 😅
No one knows, yet the academics are frothing: "FAaaaAaaaKKKKkEE!!"
Whoa! Jonah Barnes?? In the wild?? How did I get so lucky?
Mormons are so desperate for real world evidence for a fictional book. Stick to your feelings Jonah...at least they can't be evaluated by academics.
So true. Oh my goodness
So true. Oh my goodness
Wasn't Shishak the Pharaoh of Egypt as well? and Egypt was defeated/beaten back at least - not a great ally against babylon; Then Babylon falls within a generation to Persia etc etc. However, it's cool that the Pharaoh's name in another form could be used as code for Babylon because then Jeremiah is saying "the corrupt worldly kingdoms"
Dr. Jones? Dr. _Indiana_ Jones?
I know him. In his younger days he bore a stroking resemblance to the actor Harrison Ford. If you see him, give him my best. I was on a dig with him during the war! Very good with a whip.
Hates snakes and spiders, though.
As for this gold book, it could go either way. There were a number of LDS folks in the Arabian Peninsula from the 1990s to very recently and many Book of Mormons were given to Muslims. To determine whether this book is true or fake, first translate the Hebrew on it and see if it makes sense.
Whoever made it put a hell of a lot of work into it. And I can't agree that this will be a win for us if this turns out to be fake. We need to put out evidences to get out to the public, and if this thing is a fake, it's fake. But it's a great fake, and a lot of work went into it.
If it's a fraud, whoever created it knew there would be a target audience, so great care went into it. What bothers me is that it's gold, and generally people don't bury gold for thousands of years. They smelt it down and use it as a medium of exchange. And why would fakers fake antiquities that had never been found before? If I were going to concoct something to palm off an unsuspecting rube, it would be something they wouldn't _suspect_ was a fake. And if I had some gold, I think I'd make an idol or something that was used in a temple or other place of worship. If I knew history, it would be from the Christian era -- not an Israelite artifact.
So I have no idea. The big question is why a gold book? And why writing over all over place. A faker would realize the more you write, the greater chance you have being exposed as a forger. Clearly, whoever did it was an artisan, and he spent a great deal of time creating it.
It's improbable it was aimed at a Mormon audience, and if it were, I'd put some ships on it. The fact that it uses the tree of life and the minora intelligently, and the temple imagery as LDS scholars and Margaret Barker understand it leads me to think it's _not_ a fake. So why did the creators just leave this gold book just laying around, hidden for centuries?
Who knows? It's possible their enemies killed them. Or that they were being pursued and had to leave valuables behind in haste.
How do you know it uses the tree of life ? Can anyone actually read it ?
its the drawings on the plates
in the shabbat episode the gentlemen is translating some of it.
@@lindamartinez7006 the Tree of Life has been depicted as a palm tree anciently. The books and many of the seals have palm trees/leaves on them.
@@gingersnaps215 that’s nice . But you know it is not an actual real tree . Trees are people . The tree of life is Jesus Christ .
Bro i see why you guys would be so quick to jump on this story but you guys should of fact checked first
600 BC there were people writing in reformed Egyptian. There is that.
Really? Who was that?
@@johnczinczoll6545The reformed Egyptians, who else.😅
@@sleepingrhino LOL!
The Holy Spirit know if their real and we need the HolySpirit to find out
You may be one of the only people to say that that I’ve seen. But it’s absolutely true. When it comes down to it how believable is Joseph’s account of receiving the plates in isolation of a spiritual witness? We know by the power of the Holy Ghost that it’s true, so we can trust that what he said about finding them is also true.
I’m definitely an advocate for the Holy Ghost. But from what I understand of Miles Jones, that (or personal revelation or however he might term it) is also how he validates many of his discoveries, nevermind what the “experts” (I’ve seen him write it that way in a preface to an ebook he wrote), have to say about them. He also is not a member of our church, so you can make the case that he doesn’t have the invitation to have the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. But let’s not forget we’re also expected to wrestle with things sometimes, and answers are often hard-won and not always dropped in our laps (and sometimes don’t come in any major way for years..)
I think we should buy these even if they are “forgeries” haha get them cheap while they last.
It does reinforce the Lehi narrative!! Thus proving the Lehi story is within the realms of reality. Lehi wins Ether: way.😂
So interesting! You do such an excellent job! You’re so brilliant in studying it! Thank you! Not a common thing gold plates with this amazing information and dated to Lehi’s time! Number 1 no one has wanted to prove the beautiful Book of Mormon was true but usually to disprove it! We know the day will come the world will know The Book of Mormon is true and honored just like the Bible!
These seem to most likely be forgery. But you and the apologists don’t deal in probabilities you deal in possibilities. As long as it’s possible, then that’s good enough. Unfortunately that’s just not how the world works. In any other aspect of your life you would take what’s most likely, not what’s just merely possible. The entire justice system is a perfect example of this. In every criminal case there is the POSSIBILITY that the person is either innocent or guilty. However, their guilt or innocence is determined by what was most probable, not what was merely possible. Apologists refuse to use this same standard. Additionally even if these plates were real do you realize how small they are and how big the gold plates Joseph described would actually have to be to contain all the contents of the Book of Mormon? They’d have to be carried around in a suitcase. It’s unrealistic, completely improbable.
Bruh, is Dave an arm wrestler?
Bruh
@@jordan-xe2yb ikr?
Has it been established that the plates are made of gold????? If so.... Why make forgeries out of gold?????
It will be amazing if the Book of Mormon proves those gold plates are legit . Then they end up proving the Book of Mormon is real . Yayaya 2 witnesses. Nice 👍
I still believe in the plates. Truth is stranger than fiction. Don't believe the "experts". They are often wrong.
Not as often wrong as amateur Mormon apologists however......
What happened fellas? You seem to have lost your pep...
Not many people know about YHWH a Hebrew tetragramaton signifying Jehovah.
Bob Marley did. Check out his lyrics.
Man this is so hard for me. I want to really really like Dave Butlers and his books and his ideas. I really like his humor and humility and not a stuffing “scholar” however sometimes I feel he’s reaching with some of these things by wanting to validate his perspective. The odds are heavily that they are fake. So why not say that? “Hey guys these are probably fake, but how cool would that be if they are real!” This leads me to believe he wants them to be authentic so much that he’s overlooking the other facts out there that point to them being fake. To me it hurts credibility. This is an example of confirmation bias. If I’m devious enough to make these plates couldn’t I also be devious enough to not go directly to the church with the Lehi story knowing it would get their ears? Many forget Mark Hoffmann created other historical forgeries not just LDS ones and got away with it. That made him look all the more credible when he approached the church.
We put “In GOD we trust” on our coins. Putting God on coins and seals seems legit to me.
It's so cool to have a book of mormon scholar that looks like a bad@$$ mob boss. Come teach Sunday school at my ward, please.
You can do it, too. Just let that mane grow! (Be warned, it ticks a lot of people of, tho. Trust me, I know. lol)
1:22 - Jury is still out on authenticity, but there is reason to be excited now
2:08 - The known parties: the seller, the buyer, and the platform presenting the plates
3:39 - The plates present an 11-point correspondence with the Lehi story
7:16 - Two scenarios: 1) If genuine, actual gold plate books matching Lehi have been found. 2) If forged, the sellers still find the Lehi story totally plausible.
9:17 - The sellers, buyers, and platform all find the Lehi story plausible, validating it
11:16 - Even if the plates are fake, they show the Lehi story is considered plausible
13:43 - The iconography on the plates is non-Mosaic and matches a non-Deuteronomist tradition
16:48 - Connections to the temple ascent, Tree of Life, and upcoming book "In the Language of Adam"
18:23 - Examining possibilities if plates are a forgery and addressing potential issues
20:16 - Analyzing the text on the plates: potential use of ciphers, multiple languages, or mnemonic devices
23:56 - Discussing magic and amulets in ancient cultures and LDS parallels
27:11 - Possibilities for unreadable text: forgery, limited language skills, abbreviation, ciphers, amulets
31:03 - Using the Atbash cipher example from Jeremiah to illustrate enciphered Hebrew text
34:35 - Analyzing the iconography: potentially inspired by ancient coins but not direct copies
39:24 - Scholar's perspective: more proof needed due to questionable provenance
41:04 - Optimism the plates could be real, but the Lehi story is validated either way
42:11 - Issues with calling them "golden books", alternative possibilities like amulets
43:33 - Potential significance if plates are genuine Israelite temple objects
45:33 - Oral cultures, memorization, and the plates as mnemonic devices
46:17 - Catch-22 of forgery having to be both sophisticated and flawed
Thank you!!!
I'm still encouraged. I don't need anything to substantiate my faith, HOWEVER, I am surprised how easily everone is to dismiss this. Perhaps they have been hurt or let down with other forgeries, fair enough, but we are at the point in time where these things are about to come forth. Lets just wait and see. I pray for discernment but I also am looking for "the greatest manifestations of the Saviour's power that the world has ever seen". Exciting times either way!
Because it’s a nonsense fraud. You’ll see.
And people who aren't members are surprised by how easily members flock to a forgery. Then again the church itself is a forgery so, it is what it is.
@@TristenLammiDo you believe in God?
@@ryanwangen3723Everyone has said the same thing about the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Nag Hamadi, the Cairo Genizah, and any number of actual ancient documents. Your very strongly worded statement doesn't necessarily make it so.
@@lafeharris8471
You’ll see. I’m sure you want it to be something but it will end up being a big nothing burger fraud just like mormonISM.
Thank you for tempering your excitement and approaching this with some skepticism
Except for yesterday… Man I was embarrassed for the guy. so many members of the church are so easily duped and hyped with multilevel mentality.
They have egg on their face. They obviously were totally suckered by this clumsy fraud.
Thank you so much! As a faithful person; I want to believe in them whole-heartedly and without reservation. However, people have perpetrated frauds against the saints in order to embarrass us in the past. Anyone with the eyes and ears of faith, will have great joy in this exciting discovery.
Like the kinderhook plates?
@@dr33776where did the kinderhook plates go? And why did someone go through all that trouble (and obtain the finances for the gold, hiring a metallurgist in making them along with an expert of Hebrew/Egyptian) for a set up, and not have this still on display of their intent was the discredit Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon? These are questions I have and I haven’t researched these topics but I’m hoping someone could point me in the right direction in answering these questions.
@@dr33776Joseph smith believed the kinderhook plates were legit because he was 100 percent sure that the plates he "translated" were as real as day. So imagine having to tell people that you can't translate them. That would lessen their faith in the book of mormon translation. If he faked the BOM, he would immediately know the similar kinderhook plates were also fake and not even attempt a translation or give it heed. The fact he believed it and tried to translate it favors the BOM. It'd be sus if he immediately said it was fake. Also, if he made up the characters of the BOM, why attempt to figure out what the symbols mean and secularly find out the translation. If its your own hieroglyphics you wouldnt try to figure out the meaning.
Just finished listening to the whole thing ...dang it now I have to drive up to Heber and get a milkshake at Granny's...
Gentlemen!!! I don't see a forger adding a SNAKE (representing the Christ) at the base of the MANORA (reping the Cross)!!!! Come on!!!!
My Grandfather Cy Maughan could witch a Well, tell how deep and how many gpm accurately over 210 times. Cy never changed for his service because he believed it was a gift to be shared and if he charged he believed he'd lose the ability. Cy taught me and I'm able to witch water but not to the extent he could. You take a freshly cut willow branch in the shape of a Y bend it just right and as you walk when I'm over water the branch bends down. Its real and i cant explain it.
You can drill down and find water almost everywhere; that's how wells in rural neighborhoods work: everywhere has a water table and if you drill deep enough, you'll find it. And they tend to be about the same depth because the water table tends to be consistent over a fairly large area.
@@FabricofTime yeah but I'm talking about Winthrop,Wa area which is very very rural, he didn't do suburbs he did ranch, farms, homes on top of hills etc. He was able to find water when Well company's couldn't. He was famous for it in that arae.
Authentic or not, it doesn't change my testimony one bit. ❤ I fully expected there to be at least a few people who would call it a fraud.
The very first thing I thought about when you released your previous video was that this is a setup to try to get the church who is known for having a pile of cash to buy these at a multi-million dollar price tag... And then possibly even come back and say look we sold them a fake so they have no actual divinely inspired knowledge... First thing I thought of
Exactly my concern.
We won’t be fooled again a big pile of cash also buys experts to authenticate
It's been known to happen before *cough* Hoffman *cough*
And it's happened to others, too.
@@GwPoKo I don’t think we were solvent in the 80’s, were we?
I really wonder if with more information some people would be as quick to accept them as genuine as quick as they have been to declare them as fake.
Probably no
Just test the gold. All gold can be not only dated gut they can tell you what part of the earth it can from exactly and if they can't then that adds a lot of credibility
Can you date gold…? I was under the impression that elements are hard to date. I know you can tell where certain ores came from, and where products made with those ores were mined (I believe they’ve found Michigan ore in some Egyptian artifacts, but don’t quite me), but gold is not an ore, I think..?
sounds like they are working on that
Great comments about the point of this adventure is: the Lehi story is historically plausible to people that don't want to believe the Lehi story.
But this "evidence" doesn't support that assertion.
@@rodneyjamesmcguire Huh?
It's also "plausible" that a teacup is orbiting Jupiter. What one should be asking, does the evidence sufficiently support the assertion.
@@jasonford7481that's not the point and is a strawman to the actual point made. If a buyer came to a seller and said I have evidence a teacup is circling Jupiter nobody would buy into it. The seller wouldn't either. The fact that everyone thought this story made sense given the timeline and history known says that the Lehi story is not absurd (unlike a teacup circling Jupiter) and that nobody would be surprised if it was proven true in any other context than it being associated with LDS.
@@jeremims9044 Actually, to say in 600bc an Israelite family built a ship and crossed to the Americas is as absurd as saying there is a teacup orbiting Jupiter. Both are plausible yet both are very unlikely and absurd.
The part of the Lehi story that is not crazy or anything special is the idea of a family leaving Jerusalem. Thousands of people left Jerusalem. That is the part of the story that people get on board with and agree with. Again, there is nothing special or remarkable about that aspect of the story.
I think the discovery of the areas that fit Bountiful and Nahum are much bigger discoveries. Assuming these plates are real, the Bountiful and Nahum discoveries would outweigh these plates. Still, the greatest witness of the Book of Mormon is reading it and praying about it… that’s ultimately what converted me in 2014.
The BoM is true, but delve into the churches history. The Joseph Smith Papers Project is a great place to start.
No bountiful has not been found. It needs to be an area with large trees.
Those frauds the Proctors from Meridian wasted A LOT of money in Oman, Khar Karfot claiming Bountiful was real. They found ZERO to support it. Transoceanic voyage claims from the BofM are a fraud, fantasy.
The Proctors spent a lot of other people's time and money in Oman claiming to be in "Bountiful" and have ZERO to show for it. There is no Bountiful, and Nahum is a very disjointed and unsubstantiated evidence. It is like finding a 18th century headstone in the UK with the name John on it...or Jhn rather. 🤦
@@kenny-gee And a very large number of trees, and evidence of metal work, and long term habitation, and cultivation, etc. Yep, not a thing there.
Over 80 percent of archeological discoveries are accidentally found by amateurs. The 'pros' contribute very little.
Citation please
@@billcook4768Yup, definitely need proof for that assertion.
Archeology is the citation. How many people prior to modern "Archeology" found graves to remove the valuables long before these archeologists find out that someone else beat them to it? I love archeology and those who practice it. I say stop the "I'm more right than you, etc." Just wait and see, the Second Advent is not far off...
@@EmmettMcKinney-cc7cf So no citation. Cool. Wait and see isn't evidence....any claim can use that excuse.
Joseph Smith is a citation.