Nice find Tommy. Years ago I misdiagnosed a seized up engine on a VW that ended up being the starter gear jammed into the flywheel. Just want to point out to other viewers that if you do not have a visual like Tommy did here (hole in the block), you may want to unbolt your starter BEFORE condemning the engine as being seized. A hard lesson learned by me.
I don't remember, this was probably 15 years ago. What I do remember is the owner selling the car for $500 to our transmission instructor at the school, so I was made fully aware of my misdiagnosis. I still feel really bad about that one. The car was probably worth $3500-4000
Watched this vid a year or so ago and a lot of this stuff was foreign to me. But now that I’m in classes this really helped me clarify a lot of what we are doing in class, thanks!
Nice one, Tom! I didn't see you pull the pin, but we saw what happened to the grenade!!!! You can rename this video, "how to drain the oil, when the drain plug is too tight"!! Or, you could call it, "do we really need a pcv valve, or can we vent the block naturally"!! Or, my personal favorite, "4 cylinders? I only wanted 3!!"
If you rename this video "starter voltage drop" you may get better search results/more people seeing this video. Great testing technique on voltage drop.
Well that took a serious left turn...That piston rebound spring gave up.! And let me guess, the customer loaned her car to a really good friend when this happened.. and that's why she didn't hear the BOOM.? Hahaha Thanks for sharing it with us Tom
That must have been a loud bang when that happened. Did they really "just" bring it in for a crank, no start?! Tbh, when I heard that starter clicking, I already thought "Well, that's not going to be good...".
Needs a new engine .............so need to check the oil ?............Lol! should be some in the sump somewhere....along with the bits of the engine.............did you work out if the starter had a problem ? Maybe try topping up the oil and trying again.... might start with a good battery. Gaffer tape across the block.......top up the oil and run on three cyclinders and save on fuel....seems 3 cylinder jobbies are all the rage at the moment.
Wow I would have liked to been there to listen to how you explained the reason for the starter not turning over the motor to the owner. I assume it was towed in. That’s a hell of a situation, never seen that in my time around VW and Audi motors going on 20yrs
I had a similar case not too long ago, customer wanted me to change the starter....didn't need it, engine would not turn . It had an internal problem. When it did run it had the loudest rod knock 😂
That's true. Voltage drop is not only a function of resistance, but also current draw. E = I x R. A starter trying to turn a seized engine is going to draw more current. It will also get very hot, thus the smoke. It's also possible to damage the internal windings / brushes, commutator etc.
It's A pretty well accepted fact that heat in a wire will increase it's resistance and increase the voltage drop across the wire as a result (ohms law). It's sort of a better known fact that voltage drop will increase due to the increased current in the wire (ohm's law) and this will generally be the most important, or greatest cause regardless of temperature change. So you have both things going on here, but the primary cause of the voltage drop is High current which is also the cause of the increased heat in everything. I other words, If you measured the voltage drop before the temperature of the wire had a chance to go up, you would have measured the higher voltage drop, and then it would have increase to some degree as the heat increased. Even if you could keep the wires cold somehow, you would still see the increased voltage drop across with wires. Why the high current in the first place? Locked rotor on the starter motor due to the seized engine. If you look at many motor specs in general they will have a spec called 'Locked rotor current' which is always extremely high. It might be an interesting experiment to measure the resistance of one of the wires when it's cold, and then again when it's hot with your ohm meter. If the current is known, then one can calculate the voltage drop across that wire (E = I x R). I feel that understanding this can also be quite helpful in troubleshooting things like voltage drops across the ground in a car and other wiring connections. If you're getting a high drop, but you know your current is low, you know you have a bad (corroded or whatever) ground. If you're getting a higher drop, but your current is high, than it could be normal. It's good to be able to measure current draw at times.
high resistance is WHAT affected the voltage drop..and high resistance is about either too much current or too little wire..you know, it is always one relative to the other..i tend to believe that heat is only a byproduct/effect of high resistance, not the cause..scannerdanner would disagree, though..ok, let me rephrase, maybe not a byproduct per se..bcus, I think both resistance and heat come together hand in hand..simultaneously..shouldnt view them separately..bcus, even if u were to alaska at -45 celsius, the heat would still be produced, but dissipated to the environment at a much faster rate..
It's always good to look at wires in any circuit as resistors. The amount of heat in a wire or resistor (same thing) is caused by the amount of current flow. The higher the current flow, the higher the heat. There is a heat coefficient to the resistance which is usually positive, but it's always a byproduct of current. The more electrons being pushed through a resistor, the more drag on the stationary (not free) electrons causing heat. Heat will make the resistance increase, but it's the tail of the dog, not the dog. As I already mentioned, the high current and thus higher than normal voltage drop on the wires in the starter circuit is caused by the locked rotor. Locked rotor current on a starter motor can be 3-4 times the normal current draw. This is where the heat is coming from, and yes will cause the resistance of the wire to increase and thus cause a larger voltage drop, but not as much as the current variation. Ohm's law IS a law. E = I x R which we can apply to one of the wires. Just for an example we'll say that the resistance of one of the wires is 0.01 ohms. For our example I'll use 200 amps for locked rotor, and 60 amps for normal current on the starter if the engine turns over. The numbers I'm using are arbitrary, but the math is what's important. E(voltage drop across the wire) = 200 X 0.01 = 2 volts for the locked rotor. E = 60 X 0.01 = 600 mv. This is basic electrical theory that applies in all fields, automotive being one of them. Another factor to consider is the size of the wire when considering it's resistance and temperature. Looking at an electrical code book we see that wire sizes are related to the amperage being carried by the wire. Most starter wires on cars are sized large enough (gauge) to be able to maintain a certain amount of reasonable starter current for a reasonable amount of time. Locked rotor current will often exceed wire ratings, and this will cause the wire to heat up faster, and to a higher temperature, possibly damaging the wires as well as the starter because the windings, commutator, brushes were also not meant for locked rotor current and will happen if one keeps the key on too long. One saving factor is if the battery is not in such great condition and can only deliver a limited amount of current. Bottom line, I don't think it's good troubleshooting practice to assume that higher than normal voltage drops on wires is simply due to heat. It's better to think in terms of current in circuits first and foremost, but not forgetting that heat will increase the resistance to some degree which will in turn increase E drop on the wire to some degree. It does take a fairly substantial temperature increase on a wire to change it's resistance significantly. Here's some info on that topic: www.cirris.com/learning-center/general-testing/special-topics/177-temperature-coefficient-of-copper
Very quick way to check if the engine isn't locked up when you have a manual: Just lift one of the driven wheels, put in in highest gear and try to spin the wheel by hand. If it isn't a big block V8 diesel, it should rotate quite easily.
5Dale65 kinda lost here , so your saying lift the car one side with the longer axle,which is the driven shaft correct ?then spin by hand ,if it spins then it's okay ,if not engine seized ?thanks
my old chevy iron will crank over and fire up burning the alt belt off. I know cause water has frozen inside the alt's more than once and bearing seizures, stupid 90's+ vans, the 80's and older vans everything was further back and you'd have to garden hose spray directly to ice them up. the "hot" college grad engineers, were winners yet again. what pleases me, is they have to deal with their own fsckups as it breaks down on them! :))
Just a scratch.......come on......engine good for thousands of miles yet......drop of oil and the engine will be up and running........Really funny ! surely there had to be a few hits before the engine wouldn't start............like a loud bang and grinding halt. The technical diagostics is like checking the pulse on a decapitated chicken. Lol! and then..........the guys face was a picture.........like he had just been caught by his mother having sex..........rabbit in the headlights..............classic fun vid.......Thanks and keep up the good work.
It’s possible that the starter could jam in the flywheel and cause it not to turn. Remove the starter and see if it turns. I’ve also seen ac compressors lock up and create the same scenario. So you could remove the serp belt too
No testing needed, can hear starter selnoid throwing the bendix into the flywheel, motor just wasn't spinning. Don't understand these young techs wasting time PLAYING with the most complex systems first. Don't get me wrong because I do Coding, programming too but that should not be the first thing they reach for instead of using their sight hearing, smell and common sense First
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Nice find Tommy. Years ago I misdiagnosed a seized up engine on a VW that ended up being the starter gear jammed into the flywheel. Just want to point out to other viewers that if you do not have a visual like Tommy did here (hole in the block), you may want to unbolt your starter BEFORE condemning the engine as being seized. A hard lesson learned by me.
ScannerDanner good point, did the starter still make the classic "loud click" in that case?
I don't remember, this was probably 15 years ago. What I do remember is the owner selling the car for $500 to our transmission instructor at the school, so I was made fully aware of my misdiagnosis. I still feel really bad about that one. The car was probably worth $3500-4000
I bet that was hard to explain afterwards. :)) he did a very wise thing fairly early on, tried to turn it over by hand!
Parece que o motor não aguentou, aqui no Brasil pra por tudo novo tem custo elevado.
agreed if I didn't see that hole I was pulling a few things off of that engine first, serp belt and starter
Watched this vid a year or so ago and a lot of this stuff was foreign to me. But now that I’m in classes this really helped me clarify a lot of what we are doing in class, thanks!
“Well there’s your problem lady” - Eric O
Nice one, Tom! I didn't see you pull the pin, but we saw what happened to the grenade!!!!
You can rename this video, "how to drain the oil, when the drain plug is too tight"!!
Or, you could call it, "do we really need a pcv valve, or can we vent the block naturally"!!
Or, my personal favorite, "4 cylinders? I only wanted 3!!"
If you rename this video "starter voltage drop" you may get better search results/more people seeing this video. Great testing technique on voltage drop.
The hardest thing for me to learn while watching you-tube videos about car fixing was the "Voltage drop". Even Vehicle Bus system is easier :)
but once you learn it its easy
The moment I saw the intake mods I thought to myself: "I bet this thing needs and engine."
Thanks for sharing Tom and hope you had a great Christmas! Someone is not going to have a great Christmas! Don't work too hard!!
That's going to be a " Do you want the bad news or the even more bad news" conversation.
The click sounded too strong and the mods under the hood told me this might be more than a bad starter or crusty cable! Sweet video, Tommy!
I was thinking scannerdanner Mini until I saw that hole excellent video Tom
haha nice
not sure if I saw the mini video
Loser :-)
Wow, that was a huge hole! Looks like the entire piston came out. lol Super quick diagnosis Tom. Thanks!
Something had enough, wanted to get out... and got out! =)
lol yes it did
Holly crap! Talk about catastrophic failure. Sucks for the customer though. Great one Tom.
This is a good diagnostic .
Thanks,
Definitely had a blow out. Thanks for the vid!
It’s sad to see that on a gti, but if it’s because of lack of maintenance then it’s they brought it upon themselves. Awesome video!
Good troubleshooting sir.
Thanks for shering your knowledge and experience
Well that took a serious left turn...That piston rebound spring gave up.!
And let me guess, the customer loaned her car to a really good friend when this happened.. and that's why she didn't hear the BOOM.? Hahaha
Thanks for sharing it with us Tom
That's is bad guess they forgot to mention the noise it had for awhile lol. Good job Tommy
What should the volts be at the signal wire..
Hi I have a gti 2014 it’s not cranking or starting what should I do thanks
Wow that was fantastic.
Was there a piece of black tape over that super annoying oil light by any chance?
Is the starter on a 14 Jetta tdi under the air box .i shut the car off and 5 min later went to restart it nothing only 1 click
That must have been a loud bang when that happened. Did they really "just" bring it in for a crank, no start?!
Tbh, when I heard that starter clicking, I already thought "Well, that's not going to be good...".
Another great video! I hope this diag was customer pay. Easy hour!
Great info
Check the wire leading leading to the solenoid of the starter motor. It usually breaks.
Nice one
Needs a new engine .............so need to check the oil ?............Lol! should be some in the sump somewhere....along with the bits of the engine.............did you work out if the starter had a problem ? Maybe try topping up the oil and trying again.... might start with a good battery. Gaffer tape across the block.......top up the oil and run on three cyclinders and save on fuel....seems 3 cylinder jobbies are all the rage at the moment.
Wow I would have liked to been there to listen to how you explained the reason for the starter not turning over the motor to the owner. I assume it was towed in. That’s a hell of a situation, never seen that in my time around VW and Audi motors going on 20yrs
how is the complaint a no start.... engine knock like crazy wasn't a concern?
lol no
I had a similar case not too long ago, customer wanted me to change the starter....didn't need it, engine would not turn . It had an internal problem. When it did run it had the loudest rod knock 😂
Empty oil as it emptied it from the hole. No?
Sure would be interesting to hear the backstory on this one!
Good call
High amperage can cause a larger voltage drop than normal I think.
That's true. Voltage drop is not only a function of resistance, but also current draw. E = I x R. A starter trying to turn a seized engine is going to draw more current. It will also get very hot, thus the smoke. It's also possible to damage the internal windings / brushes, commutator etc.
I wondered if the starter motor heat or the high amperage affected the voltage drop
It's A pretty well accepted fact that heat in a wire will increase it's resistance and increase the voltage drop across the wire as a result (ohms law). It's sort of a better known fact that voltage drop will increase due to the increased current in the wire (ohm's law) and this will generally be the most important, or greatest cause regardless of temperature change. So you have both things going on here, but the primary cause of the voltage drop is High current which is also the cause of the increased heat in everything. I other words, If you measured the voltage drop before the temperature of the wire had a chance to go up, you would have measured the higher voltage drop, and then it would have increase to some degree as the heat increased. Even if you could keep the wires cold somehow, you would still see the increased voltage drop across with wires. Why the high current in the first place? Locked rotor on the starter motor due to the seized engine. If you look at many motor specs in general they will have a spec called 'Locked rotor current' which is always extremely high.
It might be an interesting experiment to measure the resistance of one of the wires when it's cold, and then again when it's hot with your ohm meter. If the current is known, then one can calculate the voltage drop across that wire (E = I x R). I feel that understanding this can also be quite helpful in troubleshooting things like voltage drops across the ground in a car and other wiring connections. If you're getting a high drop, but you know your current is low, you know you have a bad (corroded or whatever) ground. If you're getting a higher drop, but your current is high, than it could be normal. It's good to be able to measure current draw at times.
high resistance is WHAT affected the voltage drop..and high resistance is about either too much current or too little wire..you know, it is always one relative to the other..i tend to believe that heat is only a byproduct/effect of high resistance, not the cause..scannerdanner would disagree, though..ok, let me rephrase, maybe not a byproduct per se..bcus, I think both resistance and heat come together hand in hand..simultaneously..shouldnt view them separately..bcus, even if u were to alaska at -45 celsius, the heat would still be produced, but dissipated to the environment at a much faster rate..
It's always good to look at wires in any circuit as resistors. The amount of heat in a wire or resistor (same thing) is caused by the amount of current flow. The higher the current flow, the higher the heat. There is a heat coefficient to the resistance which is usually positive, but it's always a byproduct of current. The more electrons being pushed through a resistor, the more drag on the stationary (not free) electrons causing heat. Heat will make the resistance increase, but it's the tail of the dog, not the dog. As I already mentioned, the high current and thus higher than normal voltage drop on the wires in the starter circuit is caused by the locked rotor. Locked rotor current on a starter motor can be 3-4 times the normal current draw. This is where the heat is coming from, and yes will cause the resistance of the wire to increase and thus cause a larger voltage drop, but not as much as the current variation. Ohm's law IS a law. E = I x R which we can apply to one of the wires. Just for an example we'll say that the resistance of one of the wires is 0.01 ohms. For our example I'll use 200 amps for locked rotor, and 60 amps for normal current on the starter if the engine turns over. The numbers I'm using are arbitrary, but the math is what's important. E(voltage drop across the wire) = 200 X 0.01 = 2 volts for the locked rotor. E = 60 X 0.01 = 600 mv. This is basic electrical theory that applies in all fields, automotive being one of them.
Another factor to consider is the size of the wire when considering it's resistance and temperature. Looking at an electrical code book we see that wire sizes are related to the amperage being carried by the wire. Most starter wires on cars are sized large enough (gauge) to be able to maintain a certain amount of reasonable starter current for a reasonable amount of time. Locked rotor current will often exceed wire ratings, and this will cause the wire to heat up faster, and to a higher temperature, possibly damaging the wires as well as the starter because the windings, commutator, brushes were also not meant for locked rotor current and will happen if one keeps the key on too long. One saving factor is if the battery is not in such great condition and can only deliver a limited amount of current.
Bottom line, I don't think it's good troubleshooting practice to assume that higher than normal voltage drops on wires is simply due to heat. It's better to think in terms of current in circuits first and foremost, but not forgetting that heat will increase the resistance to some degree which will in turn increase E drop on the wire to some degree. It does take a fairly substantial temperature increase on a wire to change it's resistance significantly. Here's some info on that topic:
www.cirris.com/learning-center/general-testing/special-topics/177-temperature-coefficient-of-copper
Thank u for sharing.
Maybe timing chain tensioner ? Let us know if you find out what cause it.
I have some pictures I will upload to the facebook page, waiting to see what happens with this veh
That hole could be for ventilation and anyway who said an engine needs oil ? Next patient please. No smoking during working hours 💥
Damn brother....thats heavy..Merry Christmas to him lol.
Oops 😁 Nice one Tom. Thx!
This car came in as a no crank? The owner didn’t notice the engine blow up?
that is the more alarming part, they live, breathe and drive among us :))
Nick Johnson
Woman driver
haha, but no guarantee it was a woman driver, plenty of snowflakes about ;0
Very quick way to check if the engine isn't locked up when you have a manual: Just lift one of the driven wheels, put in in highest gear and try to spin the wheel by hand. If it isn't a big block V8 diesel, it should rotate quite easily.
5Dale65 kinda lost here , so your saying lift the car one side with the longer axle,which is the driven shaft correct ?then spin by hand ,if it spins then it's okay ,if not engine seized ?thanks
Gotta love those..."it just shut off and then wouldn't start/crank" never any mention of it making a horrible noise before shutting off.
probably radio blaring right until it died
Now that's hilarious customer bringing it in for a no crank...It wouldn't start & really the engine was running good
WOW!!!! 😮😮😮😮😮 Good one Tom!!! Lol!
Wow. Unreal! Did someone not bother to check the oil level periodically??!
We have a 2010 VW cc and it wont start. The radio comes on but the windows wont go up or down. The dont crank or anything
what ended up being the diagnosis and did you get it fixed?
Bummer. Scanner Danner had a similar issue with a Mini. Lucky that was just a seized bearing on the alternator.
my old chevy iron will crank over and fire up burning the alt belt off. I know cause water has frozen inside the alt's more than once and bearing seizures, stupid 90's+ vans, the 80's and older vans everything was further back and you'd have to garden hose spray directly to ice them up.
the "hot" college grad engineers, were winners yet again. what pleases me, is they have to deal with their own fsckups as it breaks down on them! :))
Jesus loves you man you have a holy vehicle Lol
Damn that must suck, when your car doesn't start and they tell you that you need an ENGINE 😖 I'd hate to be on the receiving end !
what if the "they" is you and your telling yourself you need an engine, that would suck too lol
Positive Lead Diagnostics yeah, been there 🤑
Just a scratch.......come on......engine good for thousands of miles yet......drop of oil and the engine will be up and running........Really funny ! surely there had to be a few hits before the engine wouldn't start............like a loud bang and grinding halt. The technical diagostics is like checking the pulse on a decapitated chicken. Lol! and then..........the guys face was a picture.........like he had just been caught by his mother having sex..........rabbit in the headlights..............classic fun vid.......Thanks and keep up the good work.
Were there any mods to the ecm or motor? Looks like there was a blow out sale! LOL
I bet the customer never heard any weird noises and they can't remember the last time the oil was changed. lol
are ya supposed to change or check the black syrup?
Should also check that none of cylinder are liquid locked with water, oil, or even gas
That block has windows 2017 version.
Wow!
Can a bad starter make the engine seem like a seized engine
It’s possible that the starter could jam in the flywheel and cause it not to turn. Remove the starter and see if it turns. I’ve also seen ac compressors lock up and create the same scenario. So you could remove the serp belt too
@@PositiveLeadDiagnostics can that make my car turn off while driving?
Very unlikely. If the ac compressor locked up while driving it would probably smoke the belt first.
@@PositiveLeadDiagnostics the belt did not smoke. What can be my next idea off why it turned off while driving. Battery is also fine
Try to turn the engine with a ratchet
vw 2014 passat check license plate light no power on
👏👏👏
What do you mean there's a hole in my block? It ran fine last night when I shut it off.. lol
WHATTTT THAA HELLL!!!!!!! HOW DO PEOPLE MISS THE ENGINE BLOWING UP?!!!!!!
Bro I have question about passat b5 pls your name
What's your question
Probably the owners son or daughter was the last one driving it.
Ah replace Pcm send them on their way !!! 😂😂😂 jk nice diag man.
Wow , junk yard time !
Weird when a car comes to the shop for a no crank complaint and no history behind. still good video tho.
Dang! ......oil pressure is way overrated, lol.
They probably over revved it. I know an enthusiast when I see one.
Nice lol 😆
Probably would have showed close to 0 oil pressure. That would ruin someones day. Good one nonetheless
you where is location how to adjust then you walk ❤
There is the problem lady !!!
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
JB Weld it, ship it
Airman
Collect your hour diag.
Wow lol
haha wow
No testing needed, can hear starter selnoid throwing the bendix into the flywheel, motor just wasn't spinning. Don't understand these young techs wasting time PLAYING with the most complex systems first. Don't get me wrong because I do Coding, programming too but that should not be the first thing they reach for instead of using their sight hearing, smell and common sense First
Woman driver?? Didnt hear the catastrophic engine failure ?? LOL
Teenagers
I have thisnrealy fast clicking sound
Now that's hilarious customer bringing it in for a no crank...It wouldn't start & really the engine was running good
They probably over revved it. I know an enthusiast when I see one.