Order Monstrous Heroes: monstrous-heroes-5e-monster-classes.backerkit.com/hosted_preorders Or download the free sample pdf: www.patreon.com/posts/monstrous-heroes-77535876 About Primus: There are references to Primus here and there, but compared to the gods, he is not as much of a major entity. I'm not convinced he's actually a god. I'm not even sure he's completely a person, as he is a machine. In fact, he's not even a "he", but an "it" - a supreme clockwork, an embodiment of mechanical order. I should have mentioned Primus in the video though.
To your rant about Mystra, I would simply like to add that she does NOT, in fact, manage magic in the entire D&D multiverse. She is a Forgotten Realms specific God. There are plenty of other God of magic out there, like the three moons of Dragonlance, for example.
@@michaelpettersson4919 Every god is at best a regional manager in the mutliverse.But I think the regional manager of the realmspace is actually Ao and so Mystra is just a regional department manager. Of a particularly powerful and important department, mind you.
She isn't even then only god of magic in the Frogotten Realms, by the way. Azuth (god of arcane magic), Savras (god o Divination magic) and Velsharoon (god of Necromancy) come to mind. But honestly, Esper either doesn't know or doesn't care for the finer details. When he speaks about Bane he shows a picture from Dragon Magazine 372. There they speak about a deity which is also called Bane but this article states explcitely: "The Bane of the core D&D setting is not same god as the Bane of the Forgotten Realms setting! Oh, there is substancial conceptual overlap. (The machting names probably clued you in on that.) They service roughly the same purpose in the pantheons, their religious precepts have a great deal in common, and they make use of similar tactics and serivors. Yet their differences are many as well, especially in terms of personal history, behaviour, and even apprarance. All that follows describes the core Bane, and it shouldn't necessarily apply to the Bane of Faerûn". This was written in 2009 so during D&D 4e when the Forgotten Realms were not the official setting of D&D yet, mind you. So Esper just mixes up two gods of the same name with similar (but not exactly identical) doctrines from different settings, namely the Fogotten Realms and the short lived Nentir Vale from 4e. It doesn't matter much for the topic of this video as these two gods probably do not differ too much in terms of their lawfulness, but it goes to show how Esper goes about those things. He either doesn't know the lore very well or he does but doesn't deem it necessary to be precise in his videos.I find both possibilities quite unfortunate when it comes to videos about lore. His videos are still entertaining, though.
@@neltymindYeah. To my understanding, even Ao himself is only the Overgod of Realmspace pacifically. Not some overall creator deity. Hell, the gods don’t even actually live in Realmspace(mainly as Ao doesn’t allow it). Thus he’s basically just their boss at the place they work to put food(aka:the worship they need to live) on the table. Possessing absolute authority over them there, but only there. Hell, even the “barely even exist in the canon” Luminous Being isn’t a confirmed omnipotent entity, just seemingly the CEO of the multiverse. Given all that, personally I take the assertions that Io is also an Overgod to mean they hold the same job in some other celestial sphere, and just pop over to Realmspace every now and then to visit their kids at work, and mess with Ao just for the hell of it.😂
Pride and humility arent necessarily always at odds with one another. You can have pride in something but still temper that pride with humility. For instances, you can have pride in something amazing you created but employ humility to not believe that creation is perfect and beyond compare when someone else creates their own invention or thing. "I have pride in my creation of the first flying machine. However, i welcome and accept any others inventors creations for flight as just as amazing as my own, and can recognize those that are even better, or builds upon my own idea, betters it." Pride and humility.
Mystra overseeing all magic all the time everywhere is not so unimaginable. Do you consciously control all cells in your body? And yet your body is still a regulated system of complex perfection.
That analogy doesn't fit. It's not like your body regulating its own organic functions. It would be like you regulating the thoughts of all beings across an infinite number of universes.
Heh, the body-analogy makes more sense considering the vast majority of beings are not users of magic. Sure, magic is everywhere, but from my perhaps wildly deluded understanding of most published settings most people are just "normal" humans, elfs, dwarfs, orcs or whatnots that are not users of the weave. Player heroes and your Elminsters and Symbuls are 1 in millions.
@@esperthebard Well if we go by Plane scape gods seem to be made of ALL the souls and minds of their followers they ever had. Imagine millions, billions and trillions of minds in one body. Also there is a supliment in 2e, I think it's called gods and demigods, in there it talks about the powers of the gods and one of it is multitasking. Demigods can do 2 tasks at the same time, Lesser Deities 5, Intremediate Deities 10 I think and Higher ones and infinite amount. And Mystra is a higher one. Another thing I want to add is that Mystra exists only in FR and nowhere else so she doesn't really take care of magic in all of the dnd worlds.
@@JaxWyldsthat actually is quite unimaginable, I don’t think u can imagine all our cells working in unison. Well our bodies do it duh hurrr. That’s not imagining.
Kelemvor is following the tenets of life as the Death and Grave Domains are considered a Neutral aspect of life. In other systems, Undeath is considered a Chaotic disturbance of Life itself.
หลายเดือนก่อน
lol I thought you were talking about TSR vs WOTC and not magic in D&D when you were saying it was the old rock stars vs k-pop corporate music :) fun Video Good Bard! Very well done!
24:41 yes, I miss the days when arcane magic was truly special, because only a few classes got to use it. Back when a single level 10 mage could annihilate an entire party with ease. Fighters were fighters, no magical superheroes. To them, coming face to face with a spell caster was nearly suicidal, without their own magic users' help.
If anyone want to read something "serious" about lawful neutrals then Curtis Yarvin has this article were he says that the only truly good alignment is lawful neutral and all other alignments specially chaotic ones are evil. Look for: WHAT IF THERE’S NO SUCH THING AS CHAOTIC GOOD?
Primus??? Have you overlooked Primus? I also think you forgot to mention Asmodeus who snuk into mount celestial and uses the law, won a trial about it against other gods, judged by Primus. He bends it but still follow it, he might be the best to use the Law so he should be mentioned Esper But i still like many of your videos and this 💪🏻
@@esperthebard yeah it's up for interpretation if he is defined as a good, I agree 👌🏻 Still no mention about Asmo which would have been awesome to see and he has so much lore and drama connected to him which would have made people more interested in him, and that would have reflected back on the vid, imo 😉👌🏻 Still great job ✌🏻
I actually don't see Asmo so evil again and more like necessary evil in the way his lore is discrbing him which is a little fascinating, that they have given him because he is THE Devil (don't misunderstand me they way he does it is evil) but it is maybe one of his greatest schemes? It's fun to think about in that way and a clever way to present it, showing his cleverness and position, that he is needed to hold the demons en check
I hate to disagree with you but primemus from the clockwork Nirvana of Mecanus. He is the epitome of law every single thing happens like clockwork from the monitoring of the plains to the modron march. His plain of existence is the most lawful plane and it revolves around him and his clockwork organization
my number one is primus. His whole existance is law. he judges the gods accordance to laws of the universe. He Must exist and his plane consists of clock work. he has sacrificed himself for law too and was replaced but his existance is so rigid that it forced orcus to be more lawful until he was replaced.
Primus is the obvious choice until you realize that he's not a god. Just a being with god-like power. It very nitpicky but it enough to unqualify him form this video.
@@joydjinn8692 that is partially true but he is considered a deity in his own realm which is why i pick him. i do see why others wouldn't though. he must have some other powers too as why would any other diety respect his rulings otherwise, especially asmodeus.
@@joydjinn8692 that's where the issue lies, what is a god or deity? Do they need to be worshipped or have worshippers then what about Ao. Do they need followers? Then the Archdukes and demons count. In my definition, a deity or god is an entity of cosmic importance. Both the lady of pain and Primus count, reality cant exist without them as it stands.
@@cleaver3519 From what I understand, for someone to become a deity, he/she need to have a certain amount of worshipers. The Lady of Pain have no worshipers. Anyone even attempting to worship her is struck by intense pain. She does not want to be worshiped and she hate the gods. I don't have a must information on Primus but he created pretty much everything in Mechanus, including the modrons. I don't think the modrons "worship" Primus. They are simply his creation and obey him like machines.
Mystra is Neutral Good in 3, 3.5 and 5 ed. The first Mystra, not Midnight, was Lawful Neutral. Mystryl was Chaotic Neutral. Although with 5ed version of Mystra is all versions which makes her Lawful Chaotic Good Neutral. Also in the lore, Mystra is dumping her power in a lot of places to stablize he power. Which is how she keeps resurrecting. Her choosen, Azuth, and other... including Weave anchors. People, places and things which help to hold and regulate the weave. Like, interesting enough, Volo which is why he keeps surviving.
@@HenriFaust You have to remember, a God job (So to speak) is the support and protection of what they are a god of. In Mystra's case, magic and the weave which make it work in Faerun. Her being alive is seconday. I've heard things, forgetting where, but sometimes Mystra allows herself to be 'murdered' if that will protect the Weave. Which makes sense as with Karsus as the goddess of magic she would have known he was making such a spell. Heck, as a goddess of Creativity in Netheril at the time, she would likely know everything being created. Her death in the Avatar Crisis could be seen similar as she was more interesting in telling Ao who stole the Tablets so she can get back to stablizing magic. Which was her purpose as a God. Her way of deaiing with the issue of Weave is back up plans. Blueflame items, sharing power, etc. To put it similar, to Mystra, her life isn't as important as making sure magic (which in the realms is supervised by a deity) continues even if she doesn't.
@@Cory2000 " In Mystra's case, magic and the weave which make it work in Faerun. Her being alive is seconday." This is absolutely backwards thinking. If your duty is to protect something, then your first priority is to be present where you're needed to protect that thing. Anything else is neglecting that duty.
@@HenriFaust The gods are mad. Even Mystra pointed this out to Adon, her high priest in one of the Cyric novels. Taking him to an asylum filled with people driven mad by magic to point out patients similar to the gods. But the novel also points out that it is also a case of gods being alien to a human mind set. Gods are basically ideas with personalities. There is a scene in the novel where Mystra and Oghma see a meeting of the gods form the view point of other gods. Which was a bit trippy. But at the end of the day, for gods, it is the ideas which matter at the end of the day. Not so much the personalities, which can be changed. By the their worshippers for examples.
Could be maybe hypothetically to usher in a more physical balanced setting maybe the Dead Three in a Desperate attempt to regain the godhood kill Mystra again. BUt this time Ao decides enough is enough and splits the authority of Arcane Magic between Azuth himself and his various servant gods who each govern one of the different schools of magic. And Maybe this decentralized approach could prevent the Weave from imploding again.
11:25 This is actually eeriely accurate in reality. Especially if it's anything political. I don't care if you're right or left. Do not force your ideals on me because both sides have good people and extreme nut cases and I don't want any of it.
True. If you want to convince someone of something you have to listen to them first and their side of the story. Only through mutual understanding can we find peace with each other.
I mean, on the Mystra/Helm encounter, while I agree that it speaks to Helm upholding his duty over his personal bias, you should've mentioned why Mystra wanted to return to the heavens. It was as an expression of her responsibility as the goddess of magic. Magic was going haywire in the world and it was only after that, that Mystra resolved to try and pass Helm. Which I wouldn't say is "weasleing out of her responsibilities".
"but his followers instead see him as a brave father figure - a paternal god constantly striving to create a stable family-like community despite the many flaws of mortals." Is- Is Tyr an analog for the Father?
You forgot Primus and he is imo the most lawfull god. Also just because there are more caster classes than martial classes doesnt mean that most inhabitants of Toril can therefore use magic. According to Ed Greenwood only 10-15% of the popullation can (including cleric, wizards, paladins, sorcerer, warlocks ....). Still gave you a like for the amazing video tho.
I'm not sure you can consider Primus a god. He's simply a being that is natural from his plane. He is lawful neutral incarnate, as much as demon lords are natural from the Abyss and chaotic evil incarnate. None of them has the spark of divinity, with a few exceptions (coughLolthcough).
I considered Primus, as he is an embodiment of absolute clockwork law. But I'm not convinced he's actually a god. I probably should have mentioned him though.
Not going to lie I don't get the complaint about the dnd being too magical. Cuz like that's nothing new. Wasn't 3e the edition where casters got acces to 10th, 11th, 12th level spells that were world altering? And who could forget the Book of 9 Swords that basically gave warriors magic. Also the let's not forget that Spelljamer is a thing and you can use that add on in any setting.
No love for Primus, The Lawful Neutral Clockwork God of Mechanus? Or Asmodeus, the Champion and Defender of Law against the demon hordes of Chaos? No Moradin the Soulforger? For Shame. SHAME!
The whole tirade about Mystra doesn't make sense, because you're assuming that she supervises every single cantrip, which isn't so. 😂😂😂 She just gives the mortals the ability to use the Weave and washes her hands of it afterwards, and they're the ones who have to know how. The *OTHER* gods are the ones who personally concede their power to clerics and paladins... which incidentally have nothing to do with Mystra, so maybe your class count is a bit off (without even bringing in the primal powers to the discussion). 😅 *THEY* are a million times more hands on and busy than Mystra. 😉
While it's true that pride and humility are opposites, I wouldn't exactly call it a paradox. I mean, I own and wear black clothes as well as white clothes. Sometimes at the same time. Sometimes the same shirt can be both white and black. 😉
Mystra probably have a problem getting a life insurance at this point. Joke aside take away the general spell casting bit from her and make her ONLY guide arcane spell casting. None arcane spell casters would be someone else realm. Helm killing Mystra was dumb and dangeroues and it cost him. He acted as a stubborn doorguard preventing the crew of an nuclear powerplant from entering the control room. Someone MUST be there no matter what the CEO says. As such, I call Helm Lawful Stupid.
"One of the surest ways to get somebody to rebel against you and to fight back against you is to try to force your ideas upon them." I'm not so sure about that one Esper. History's quite unfortunately rife with examples of ideological oppression triumphing - the very concept of heresy itself, regardless of what faith employs it, is a pretty big example of institutionally forcing one's ideas onto others without much resistance.
He specifically phrased that part as CAN lead to rebellion not WILL lead to rebellion. Which, he is right. Just as you have instances of tyrannt working, there is just as many of it no longer working at all.
@@RazielTheUnborn ..Yeah, no, directly describing something as a ‘sure’ way of getting something to happen is definitive wording, not potential. This comment uses a direct quote - it is quite literally his exact phrasing.
Have not watched yet. Giving my prediction as primus, the literal Lord of the clockwork nirvana of Mechanus. I’ve heard it said that mortals cannot hear his voice and survive. Because his words are the binary code that creates whole universes when gathered in their brains.
Unfortunate that Hoar/Assuran is not mentioned. I have seen him as one of the most strictly law focused gods, his portfolios being revenge, retribution, poetic justice and to repay evil with evil and good with good
FYI. There are 2 Mystra in the Forgotten Realms. The 1st Mystra was Lawful Nuetral but she died during the avatar wars/time of troubles. After the time of troubles. Lord AO elevated a young woman named Midnight as the new goddess of magic. Midnight absord the essense of the 1st Mystra and took the name Mystra as well there by becoming the 2nd Mystra. The 2nd Mystra retained Midnights alignment which is Neutral Good. The 2nd Mystra was dead in 4th Edition. Remember you mentioned in your most evil god video that Cyric killed Mystra and brought about the spell plauge.
A interesting way dnd can split up magic is by doing what WOTC almost did with the spell lists. Having an arcane list of magic, a divine list of magic, and a primal list of magic and each can have a god that governs it. Like Mystra for arcane magic used by wizards, sorcerers, artificers and warlocks. Silvanus for primal magic used by druids, rangers and barbarians. And pelor for divine magic used by clerics and paladins. The reason for these 3 is Mystra is already a god of magic and it's easier to split the divine and natural magics from that, Silvanus as a greater god of nature it can be reasoned he controls the flow of natural magic to ensure the cycles of nature are not disturbed. And I chose Pelor as his domains contain life and grave with divine magic being usually the ones that handle them, but any greater god could handle that role.
I totally agree. I like magic but it's not magic if you make it easy, mundane, and predictable. Too magic items and free magic actions (cantrips) each turn are only the tip of the ice berg on this problem. I think people have lost their cultural references in this matter. I recommend people read sword and sorcery. These og fantasy books real encapsulate the excitement of adventure and the crazy, mysterious, dangerous elements of magic. Many of these franchises like Elric, Conan, Fafhr and the Grey Mouser are even cited as inspiration in 1e along with the more well known entries like lotr. Reading a wide variety will help to nourish the diet of your creativity. Too many modern "phone book" fantasies are just a copy of a copy of a copy but the nice thing about sword and sorcery is that they are often quite quick reads.
Siamorphe is worth a small mention I think. Her 'Rightful Rule of Nobility' stands out as a pretty dogmatic lawful tenant. Though, her rather limited geographic area of worship and influence pretty much kneecaps her from being a real contender. Jergal, however, if anything is even more of a poster child for lawful than maybe Kelemvor, partly because the latte was once mortal, while Jergal wasn't. Lastly (and imho most fun) is Hoar. A god I've always had a soft spot for. That he sort of takes pleasure in carrying out his 'duties' could be seen either as a negative (he's not doing what he does just because it's his role/job/duty, but cos it's fun as well. Or, on the flipside, if your lawful duty is something that also satisfies, you, even makes you smile, doesn't that show you a really into it? I think 'poetic justice' is by definition less defined than those of Helm or Kelemvor. It has a sort of artistic aspect. Which I think pushes Hoar away from the top spot. But, I think he is the most 'happily' lawful god, which is worthy of note at least I think. Mystra shouldn't be in contention. She does lean significantly (if not moreso) towards good. Her many Chosen are all 'dogooders' and she is one of the patrons of the Harpers. By assosiation that somewhat knobbles Azuth as well, plus his very close friendship with her has implications for him acting from personal feelings rather than 'what is required', or at least, that he will have to guard against such, where there is no sign of the same issue witht he likes of Helm or Kelemvor, (or Hoar).
Mysta is only the god of magic in the forgotten realms. The weave either works differently or doesn't even exist on other worlds. Somehow magic even works in the Phlogiston, the space between the crystal spheres. And the crystal spheres stop the power of the gods! (At least in 2e spelljammer, anyway)
I do appreciate the way you almost “sing” these stories and narration within your videos. You truly are Esper the Bard, and why I support your kickstarter projects. ❤
Sure Bane enbodies the perfect dictator ... however in his way of ruling by fear... he creates his own possible downfall if his followers met someone capable to give them hope of a better way... to perfectly rule by terror your slaves/followers have to be so affraid of you that they will always refuse to betray you to be freed from fear... that must be a full-time job to scare away any hope from your disciples'minds.
Mystra being anything but True Neutral never made sense to me. She cares only about magic, regardless of the user's alignment or intentions. She even forbid her clerics and champions from stopping an evil dracolich's (Daurgothoth) plan to create a race of living dracoliches that could destroy Faerûn. Why? Because is really good at magic and she wants to see what he does next.
I sense a lot of symbolism in the conflict between Helm and Mystra, for there is no magic without normality. And the breaking of rules is not fascinating, unless the rules are firmly established. Mystra needs Helm.
Elturgard is an example of a lawful good theocracy that got so wrapped up in the law aspect that it lost most of the good of it's nature. For the purest, most stoic of Paladins, I see only the orders of Helm.
Before watching this video, I would have said Kelemvor. This is a great example of how subjective and malleable D&D can be. Also, yes the weave needs a retcon for sure.
I like to think that distinctions like law and chaos are not something strictly universal, but a matter of factions. In my D&D universe the "faction of law" is literally a bunch of gods and entities that grouped together and called themselves "the Law", with everyone else not complying with them being painted as chaotic dissidents. Angels, devils and most lawful gods are part of this universal faction. Demons and monsters do not care about definitions, while more neutral beings like fairies do not appreciate the overreach of this cosmic lobby.
There are references to Primus here and there, but not actually much information about he himself. I'm not convinced he's actually a god. Actually I think Primus should he referred to as it, as it's not exactly a person, but rather a supreme clockwork, an embodiment of mechanical order.
Order Monstrous Heroes: monstrous-heroes-5e-monster-classes.backerkit.com/hosted_preorders
Or download the free sample pdf: www.patreon.com/posts/monstrous-heroes-77535876
About Primus: There are references to Primus here and there, but compared to the gods, he is not as much of a major entity. I'm not convinced he's actually a god. I'm not even sure he's completely a person, as he is a machine. In fact, he's not even a "he", but an "it" - a supreme clockwork, an embodiment of mechanical order. I should have mentioned Primus in the video though.
To your rant about Mystra, I would simply like to add that she does NOT, in fact, manage magic in the entire D&D multiverse. She is a Forgotten Realms specific God. There are plenty of other God of magic out there, like the three moons of Dragonlance, for example.
So she is the regional manager then?
@@michaelpettersson4919 Every god is at best a regional manager in the mutliverse.But I think the regional manager of the realmspace is actually Ao and so Mystra is just a regional department manager. Of a particularly powerful and important department, mind you.
She isn't even then only god of magic in the Frogotten Realms, by the way. Azuth (god of arcane magic), Savras (god o Divination magic) and Velsharoon (god of Necromancy) come to mind.
But honestly, Esper either doesn't know or doesn't care for the finer details. When he speaks about Bane he shows a picture from Dragon Magazine 372. There they speak about a deity which is also called Bane but this article states explcitely:
"The Bane of the core D&D setting is not same god as the Bane of the Forgotten Realms setting! Oh, there is substancial conceptual overlap. (The machting names probably clued you in on that.) They service roughly the same purpose in the pantheons, their religious precepts have a great deal in common, and they make use of similar tactics and serivors. Yet their differences are many as well, especially in terms of personal history, behaviour, and even apprarance. All that follows describes the core Bane, and it shouldn't necessarily apply to the Bane of Faerûn".
This was written in 2009 so during D&D 4e when the Forgotten Realms were not the official setting of D&D yet, mind you. So Esper just mixes up two gods of the same name with similar (but not exactly identical) doctrines from different settings, namely the Fogotten Realms and the short lived Nentir Vale from 4e. It doesn't matter much for the topic of this video as these two gods probably do not differ too much in terms of their lawfulness, but it goes to show how Esper goes about those things. He either doesn't know the lore very well or he does but doesn't deem it necessary to be precise in his videos.I find both possibilities quite unfortunate when it comes to videos about lore. His videos are still entertaining, though.
@@neltymind
You mean "assistant to the regional manager".
@@neltymindYeah. To my understanding, even Ao himself is only the Overgod of Realmspace pacifically. Not some overall creator deity.
Hell, the gods don’t even actually live in Realmspace(mainly as Ao doesn’t allow it). Thus he’s basically just their boss at the place they work to put food(aka:the worship they need to live) on the table. Possessing absolute authority over them there, but only there.
Hell, even the “barely even exist in the canon” Luminous Being isn’t a confirmed omnipotent entity, just seemingly the CEO of the multiverse.
Given all that, personally I take the assertions that Io is also an Overgod to mean they hold the same job in some other celestial sphere, and just pop over to Realmspace every now and then to visit their kids at work, and mess with Ao just for the hell of it.😂
Pride and humility arent necessarily always at odds with one another. You can have pride in something but still temper that pride with humility. For instances, you can have pride in something amazing you created but employ humility to not believe that creation is perfect and beyond compare when someone else creates their own invention or thing.
"I have pride in my creation of the first flying machine. However, i welcome and accept any others inventors creations for flight as just as amazing as my own, and can recognize those that are even better, or builds upon my own idea, betters it."
Pride and humility.
Mystra overseeing all magic all the time everywhere is not so unimaginable. Do you consciously control all cells in your body? And yet your body is still a regulated system of complex perfection.
That analogy doesn't fit. It's not like your body regulating its own organic functions. It would be like you regulating the thoughts of all beings across an infinite number of universes.
@@esperthebard You know what it's like to be a goddess of magic better than i do, apparently.
Heh, the body-analogy makes more sense considering the vast majority of beings are not users of magic. Sure, magic is everywhere, but from my perhaps wildly deluded understanding of most published settings most people are just "normal" humans, elfs, dwarfs, orcs or whatnots that are not users of the weave.
Player heroes and your Elminsters and Symbuls are 1 in millions.
@@esperthebard Well if we go by Plane scape gods seem to be made of ALL the souls and minds of their followers they ever had. Imagine millions, billions and trillions of minds in one body. Also there is a supliment in 2e, I think it's called gods and demigods, in there it talks about the powers of the gods and one of it is multitasking. Demigods can do 2 tasks at the same time, Lesser Deities 5, Intremediate Deities 10 I think and Higher ones and infinite amount. And Mystra is a higher one.
Another thing I want to add is that Mystra exists only in FR and nowhere else so she doesn't really take care of magic in all of the dnd worlds.
@@JaxWyldsthat actually is quite unimaginable, I don’t think u can imagine all our cells working in unison. Well our bodies do it duh hurrr. That’s not imagining.
Kelemvor is following the tenets of life as the Death and Grave Domains are considered a Neutral aspect of life. In other systems, Undeath is considered a Chaotic disturbance of Life itself.
lol I thought you were talking about TSR vs WOTC and not magic in D&D when you were saying it was the old rock stars vs k-pop corporate music :) fun Video Good Bard! Very well done!
Oh, Esper, I have the bell on and youtube still forgets to push some notifications
You can also change it from personalized into All for the bell.
So, you're saying that the Bone Castle of Doom is on the market?
It's a real fixer upper.
21:01 I mean, Morena Baccarin does look godly
24:41 yes, I miss the days when arcane magic was truly special, because only a few classes got to use it. Back when a single level 10 mage could annihilate an entire party with ease. Fighters were fighters, no magical superheroes. To them, coming face to face with a spell caster was nearly suicidal, without their own magic users' help.
The most lawful god is the one incapable of actions that don't serve its tenants. It sounds like Helm meets that strict criteria.
doesnt mystra not having domains in 4e have to do w the fact she was dead during that period?
Um... what about Primus, the literal manifestation of Law?
If anyone want to read something "serious" about lawful neutrals then Curtis Yarvin has this article were he says that the only truly good alignment is lawful neutral and all other alignments specially chaotic ones are evil.
Look for: WHAT IF THERE’S NO SUCH THING AS CHAOTIC GOOD?
Primus??? Have you overlooked Primus?
I also think you forgot to mention Asmodeus who snuk into mount celestial and uses the law, won a trial about it against other gods, judged by Primus.
He bends it but still follow it, he might be the best to use the Law so he should be mentioned Esper
But i still like many of your videos and this 💪🏻
See the pinned comment.
@@esperthebard yeah it's up for interpretation if he is defined as a good, I agree 👌🏻
Still no mention about Asmo which would have been awesome to see and he has so much lore and drama connected to him which would have made people more interested in him, and that would have reflected back on the vid, imo 😉👌🏻
Still great job ✌🏻
I actually don't see Asmo so evil again and more like necessary evil in the way his lore is discrbing him which is a little fascinating, that they have given him because he is THE Devil (don't misunderstand me they way he does it is evil) but it is maybe one of his greatest schemes? It's fun to think about in that way and a clever way to present it, showing his cleverness and position, that he is needed to hold the demons en check
What about Lord Ao ?
I hate to disagree with you but primemus from the clockwork Nirvana of Mecanus. He is the epitome of law every single thing happens like clockwork from the monitoring of the plains to the modron march. His plain of existence is the most lawful plane and it revolves around him and his clockwork organization
See the pinned comment.
Um..Primus?
Helm is so lawful he was the only god not cast down during the spellplague as Ao knew he wouldnt have fucked anything up
my number one is primus. His whole existance is law. he judges the gods accordance to laws of the universe. He Must exist and his plane consists of clock work. he has sacrificed himself for law too and was replaced but his existance is so rigid that it forced orcus to be more lawful until he was replaced.
Primus is the obvious choice until you realize that he's not a god. Just a being with god-like power. It very nitpicky but it enough to unqualify him form this video.
@@joydjinn8692 that is partially true but he is considered a deity in his own realm which is why i pick him. i do see why others wouldn't though. he must have some other powers too as why would any other diety respect his rulings otherwise, especially asmodeus.
@@cleaver3519 He's pretty much in the same category as the Lady of Pain. Beings so powerful even the gods fear/respect them.
@@joydjinn8692 that's where the issue lies, what is a god or deity? Do they need to be worshipped or have worshippers then what about Ao. Do they need followers? Then the Archdukes and demons count. In my definition, a deity or god is an entity of cosmic importance. Both the lady of pain and Primus count, reality cant exist without them as it stands.
@@cleaver3519 From what I understand, for someone to become a deity, he/she need to have a certain amount of worshipers. The Lady of Pain have no worshipers. Anyone even attempting to worship her is struck by intense pain. She does not want to be worshiped and she hate the gods. I don't have a must information on Primus but he created pretty much everything in Mechanus, including the modrons. I don't think the modrons "worship" Primus. They are simply his creation and obey him like machines.
Mystra is Neutral Good in 3, 3.5 and 5 ed. The first Mystra, not Midnight, was Lawful Neutral. Mystryl was Chaotic Neutral.
Although with 5ed version of Mystra is all versions which makes her Lawful Chaotic Good Neutral.
Also in the lore, Mystra is dumping her power in a lot of places to stablize he power. Which is how she keeps resurrecting. Her choosen, Azuth, and other... including Weave anchors. People, places and things which help to hold and regulate the weave. Like, interesting enough, Volo which is why he keeps surviving.
It sounds like she's so invested in the game of whack-a-mole, that she can't even protect herself from harm.
@@HenriFaust You have to remember, a God job (So to speak) is the support and protection of what they are a god of. In Mystra's case, magic and the weave which make it work in Faerun. Her being alive is seconday.
I've heard things, forgetting where, but sometimes Mystra allows herself to be 'murdered' if that will protect the Weave. Which makes sense as with Karsus as the goddess of magic she would have known he was making such a spell. Heck, as a goddess of Creativity in Netheril at the time, she would likely know everything being created.
Her death in the Avatar Crisis could be seen similar as she was more interesting in telling Ao who stole the Tablets so she can get back to stablizing magic. Which was her purpose as a God.
Her way of deaiing with the issue of Weave is back up plans. Blueflame items, sharing power, etc.
To put it similar, to Mystra, her life isn't as important as making sure magic (which in the realms is supervised by a deity) continues even if she doesn't.
@@Cory2000 " In Mystra's case, magic and the weave which make it work in Faerun. Her being alive is seconday."
This is absolutely backwards thinking. If your duty is to protect something, then your first priority is to be present where you're needed to protect that thing. Anything else is neglecting that duty.
@@HenriFaust The gods are mad. Even Mystra pointed this out to Adon, her high priest in one of the Cyric novels. Taking him to an asylum filled with people driven mad by magic to point out patients similar to the gods. But the novel also points out that it is also a case of gods being alien to a human mind set.
Gods are basically ideas with personalities. There is a scene in the novel where Mystra and Oghma see a meeting of the gods form the view point of other gods. Which was a bit trippy. But at the end of the day, for gods, it is the ideas which matter at the end of the day. Not so much the personalities, which can be changed. By the their worshippers for examples.
@@Cory2000 I see you're a budding Athar.
Mystra getting split and shattered into numerous gods because of the stress of keeping track of each school of magic would be rather interesting.
Or should hire underlings to work the details and then oversee the underlings. Maybe "let's kill Mystra" shouldn't remain a tradition....
Could be maybe hypothetically to usher in a more physical balanced setting maybe the Dead Three in a Desperate attempt to regain the godhood kill Mystra again. BUt this time Ao decides enough is enough and splits the authority of Arcane Magic between Azuth himself and his various servant gods who each govern one of the different schools of magic. And Maybe this decentralized approach could prevent the Weave from imploding again.
True order comes not from the removal of chaos, but from giving it a time and place.
Sounds a lot like something someone who is neutral on the lawful/chaos axis would say
I like that
That hiddennotsohidden jab at the totallynotmarketingcentred hyperfantasication of the last 10 years rang hard enough to make my spine vibrate.
11:25 This is actually eeriely accurate in reality. Especially if it's anything political.
I don't care if you're right or left. Do not force your ideals on me because both sides have good people and extreme nut cases and I don't want any of it.
True. If you want to convince someone of something you have to listen to them first and their side of the story. Only through mutual understanding can we find peace with each other.
Well said. If an idea requires force or lies in order to be implemented, it's a bad idea.
Oh yeah. Helm's stoic commitment to his duty is unbreakable and his will is iron clad. To me, he's also one of the most bad ass and admirable gods.
I'd rather follow The Raven Queen or Tharmekhul or Myrkul or Garagos or Stronmaus or Corellon, before I'd follow Helm!!!
I mean, on the Mystra/Helm encounter, while I agree that it speaks to Helm upholding his duty over his personal bias, you should've mentioned why Mystra wanted to return to the heavens. It was as an expression of her responsibility as the goddess of magic. Magic was going haywire in the world and it was only after that, that Mystra resolved to try and pass Helm. Which I wouldn't say is "weasleing out of her responsibilities".
As a Helm loyalist, this pleases me 🛡
"but his followers instead see him as a brave father figure - a paternal god constantly striving to create a stable family-like community despite the many flaws of mortals."
Is-
Is Tyr an analog for the Father?
You forgot Primus and he is imo the most lawfull god.
Also just because there are more caster classes than martial classes doesnt mean that most inhabitants of Toril can therefore use magic. According to Ed Greenwood only 10-15% of the popullation can (including cleric, wizards, paladins, sorcerer, warlocks ....). Still gave you a like for the amazing video tho.
I'm not sure you can consider Primus a god. He's simply a being that is natural from his plane. He is lawful neutral incarnate, as much as demon lords are natural from the Abyss and chaotic evil incarnate. None of them has the spark of divinity, with a few exceptions (coughLolthcough).
Yeah and most of those people prob know only minor spells for house work and such.
@@AdrydYT you are correct on that. Primus seems not to be a god.
I considered Primus, as he is an embodiment of absolute clockwork law. But I'm not convinced he's actually a god. I probably should have mentioned him though.
Not going to lie I don't get the complaint about the dnd being too magical. Cuz like that's nothing new. Wasn't 3e the edition where casters got acces to 10th, 11th, 12th level spells that were world altering? And who could forget the Book of 9 Swords that basically gave warriors magic.
Also the let's not forget that Spelljamer is a thing and you can use that add on in any setting.
No love for Primus, The Lawful Neutral Clockwork God of Mechanus? Or Asmodeus, the Champion and Defender of Law against the demon hordes of Chaos? No Moradin the Soulforger? For Shame. SHAME!
Asmodeus a defender? That's not wrong....right either. Half of that reputation if not most of it is just propaganda made up by him.
See the pinned comment.
Awesome! Instant like! Your content is top notch bro!
The whole tirade about Mystra doesn't make sense, because you're assuming that she supervises every single cantrip, which isn't so. 😂😂😂
She just gives the mortals the ability to use the Weave and washes her hands of it afterwards, and they're the ones who have to know how.
The *OTHER* gods are the ones who personally concede their power to clerics and paladins... which incidentally have nothing to do with Mystra, so maybe your class count is a bit off (without even bringing in the primal powers to the discussion). 😅
*THEY* are a million times more hands on and busy than Mystra. 😉
While it's true that pride and humility are opposites, I wouldn't exactly call it a paradox.
I mean, I own and wear black clothes as well as white clothes.
Sometimes at the same time.
Sometimes the same shirt can be both white and black. 😉
Mystra probably have a problem getting a life insurance at this point.
Joke aside take away the general spell casting bit from her and make her ONLY guide arcane spell casting. None arcane spell casters would be someone else realm.
Helm killing Mystra was dumb and dangeroues and it cost him. He acted as a stubborn doorguard preventing the crew of an nuclear powerplant from entering the control room. Someone MUST be there no matter what the CEO says. As such, I call Helm Lawful Stupid.
"One of the surest ways to get somebody to rebel against you and to fight back against you is to try to force your ideas upon them."
I'm not so sure about that one Esper. History's quite unfortunately rife with examples of ideological oppression triumphing - the very concept of heresy itself, regardless of what faith employs it, is a pretty big example of institutionally forcing one's ideas onto others without much resistance.
He specifically phrased that part as CAN lead to rebellion not WILL lead to rebellion. Which, he is right. Just as you have instances of tyrannt working, there is just as many of it no longer working at all.
@@RazielTheUnborn ..Yeah, no, directly describing something as a ‘sure’ way of getting something to happen is definitive wording, not potential. This comment uses a direct quote - it is quite literally his exact phrasing.
Neutrality is also a powerful force in D&D!!! Additionally, you are forgetting about "Wild Magic Barbarian" which is a Magical Sub-Class of Barbarian.
If we go by just the video's title rather than its focus upon the Forgotten Realms, the most Lawful god of D&D is Pholtus.
Greyhawk lives!
I read Lawful Good and was surprise when you mentioned Bane :D
Have not watched yet. Giving my prediction as primus, the literal Lord of the clockwork nirvana of Mechanus.
I’ve heard it said that mortals cannot hear his voice and survive. Because his words are the binary code that creates whole universes when gathered in their brains.
Unfortunate that Hoar/Assuran is not mentioned. I have seen him as one of the most strictly law focused gods, his portfolios being revenge, retribution, poetic justice and to repay evil with evil and good with good
From Eberron, either Aureon or the Path of Inspiration religion in Riedra.
FYI. There are 2 Mystra in the Forgotten Realms. The 1st Mystra was Lawful Nuetral but she died during the avatar wars/time of troubles. After the time of troubles. Lord AO elevated a young woman named Midnight as the new goddess of magic. Midnight absord the essense of the 1st Mystra and took the name Mystra as well there by becoming the 2nd Mystra. The 2nd Mystra retained Midnights alignment which is Neutral Good.
The 2nd Mystra was dead in 4th Edition. Remember you mentioned in your most evil god video that Cyric killed Mystra and brought about the spell plauge.
A interesting way dnd can split up magic is by doing what WOTC almost did with the spell lists. Having an arcane list of magic, a divine list of magic, and a primal list of magic and each can have a god that governs it. Like Mystra for arcane magic used by wizards, sorcerers, artificers and warlocks. Silvanus for primal magic used by druids, rangers and barbarians. And pelor for divine magic used by clerics and paladins.
The reason for these 3 is Mystra is already a god of magic and it's easier to split the divine and natural magics from that, Silvanus as a greater god of nature it can be reasoned he controls the flow of natural magic to ensure the cycles of nature are not disturbed. And I chose Pelor as his domains contain life and grave with divine magic being usually the ones that handle them, but any greater god could handle that role.
I totally agree. I like magic but it's not magic if you make it easy, mundane, and predictable. Too magic items and free magic actions (cantrips) each turn are only the tip of the ice berg on this problem. I think people have lost their cultural references in this matter. I recommend people read sword and sorcery. These og fantasy books real encapsulate the excitement of adventure and the crazy, mysterious, dangerous elements of magic. Many of these franchises like Elric, Conan, Fafhr and the Grey Mouser are even cited as inspiration in 1e along with the more well known entries like lotr. Reading a wide variety will help to nourish the diet of your creativity. Too many modern "phone book" fantasies are just a copy of a copy of a copy but the nice thing about sword and sorcery is that they are often quite quick reads.
Siamorphe is worth a small mention I think. Her 'Rightful Rule of Nobility' stands out as a pretty dogmatic lawful tenant. Though, her rather limited geographic area of worship and influence pretty much kneecaps her from being a real contender.
Jergal, however, if anything is even more of a poster child for lawful than maybe Kelemvor, partly because the latte was once mortal, while Jergal wasn't.
Lastly (and imho most fun) is Hoar. A god I've always had a soft spot for. That he sort of takes pleasure in carrying out his 'duties' could be seen either as a negative (he's not doing what he does just because it's his role/job/duty, but cos it's fun as well. Or, on the flipside, if your lawful duty is something that also satisfies, you, even makes you smile, doesn't that show you a really into it? I think 'poetic justice' is by definition less defined than those of Helm or Kelemvor. It has a sort of artistic aspect. Which I think pushes Hoar away from the top spot. But, I think he is the most 'happily' lawful god, which is worthy of note at least I think.
Mystra shouldn't be in contention. She does lean significantly (if not moreso) towards good. Her many Chosen are all 'dogooders' and she is one of the patrons of the Harpers. By assosiation that somewhat knobbles Azuth as well, plus his very close friendship with her has implications for him acting from personal feelings rather than 'what is required', or at least, that he will have to guard against such, where there is no sign of the same issue witht he likes of Helm or Kelemvor, (or Hoar).
Mysta is only the god of magic in the forgotten realms.
The weave either works differently or doesn't even exist on other worlds.
Somehow magic even works in the Phlogiston, the space between the crystal spheres. And the crystal spheres stop the power of the gods! (At least in 2e spelljammer, anyway)
I do appreciate the way you almost “sing” these stories and narration within your videos. You truly are Esper the Bard, and why I support your kickstarter projects. ❤
Sure Bane enbodies the perfect dictator ... however in his way of ruling by fear... he creates his own possible downfall if his followers met someone capable to give them hope of a better way... to perfectly rule by terror your slaves/followers have to be so affraid of you that they will always refuse to betray you to be freed from fear... that must be a full-time job to scare away any hope from your disciples'minds.
Mystra being anything but True Neutral never made sense to me. She cares only about magic, regardless of the user's alignment or intentions. She even forbid her clerics and champions from stopping an evil dracolich's (Daurgothoth) plan to create a race of living dracoliches that could destroy Faerûn. Why? Because is really good at magic and she wants to see what he does next.
I sense a lot of symbolism in the conflict between Helm and Mystra, for there is no magic without normality. And the breaking of rules is not fascinating, unless the rules are firmly established. Mystra needs Helm.
Elturgard is an example of a lawful good theocracy that got so wrapped up in the law aspect that it lost most of the good of it's nature.
For the purest, most stoic of Paladins, I see only the orders of Helm.
Before watching this video, I would have said Kelemvor. This is a great example of how subjective and malleable D&D can be. Also, yes the weave needs a retcon for sure.
Hehe, Morena Baccarin as Mystara would be a nice choice for an actress. Probably also for a a goddess of youth as she seems to never age.
Honeslty I think Eberron does Ultra high magic better because it just treats it as that world's science.
This channel is super underrated. Though maybe being an open secret is best :)
Hell yeah. Helm is one of my favorite gods.
That mystra section took a turn I was not expecting
Kelemvor seems a lot like Morr in Warhammer Fantasy
I was liking this video until you found a way to put in a whiny rant about your nostalgia.
What about Primus?
Me expecting to see Primus over here: 🤡
Torm n Tyr should merge together for a more rounded god
Whats up with Lathander?
Did Primus get mentioned in this video?
Helm reminds me of robocop
Wild magic barbarian
Not even a mention of Primus? Literally the God of Law, made of pure lawful energy? Lol ok
See the pinned comment.
isnt Mechanus a forgoten realm god? aint the the most lawful?
@@deusexstupit7969 see the pinned comment
I like to think that distinctions like law and chaos are not something strictly universal, but a matter of factions. In my D&D universe the "faction of law" is literally a bunch of gods and entities that grouped together and called themselves "the Law", with everyone else not complying with them being painted as chaotic dissidents. Angels, devils and most lawful gods are part of this universal faction. Demons and monsters do not care about definitions, while more neutral beings like fairies do not appreciate the overreach of this cosmic lobby.
Mystra, the overworked magical accountant!
No Primus?
See the pinned comment.
Great video
First!
How does Primus, Lord of Mechanus the plane of law not count as a lawful god?
There are references to Primus here and there, but not actually much information about he himself. I'm not convinced he's actually a god. Actually I think Primus should he referred to as it, as it's not exactly a person, but rather a supreme clockwork, an embodiment of mechanical order.