[SFS] The time I told someone to BREAK a train, instead of FIX it... | Stories from the Shop
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 พ.ย. 2024
- Sometimes you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet, right?
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For those of you, who want to learn, and who are like "Well this tourist/museum railroad has (X) locomotive that has a wore out 567, how come they dont fix it if its that simple?"
One, the obvious, funding.
And two, there's many different variations of the early EMD engines, The early 567s have a lot of variation compared to the later engines.
567s were originally built by Winton Engine Works in 1938, they were designed to replace the predecessor, 201A. Winton (and before then Cleveland Engine Works) built engines for GM-EMD, Winton was purchased by GM in 1941. Until about the mid 1950s the 567s had a lot of major redesigns and revisions to fix issues they were prone to have. There were 4 567 variations that were significantly different to each other during this time, the 567V, 567W (Winton), 567A and 567B (GM). The V and W blocks are unique to their own designs and share nothing in common with any later engines (They even have a belt driven blower instead of gear drive). The A and B series were closely designed to the more modern C block, with a gear drive blower assembly but had its differences, mainly the one piece camshafts and radically different head design, and a significantly different cooling system A and B blocks can easily be determined by their square air box and crankcase covers.
Then came the C block, this set the standard for EMD engines for years to come, they have round air box and crankcase covers, "modern" heads, split type camshafts, and the new power pack assembly that EMD used from there on.
So the issue that museums run into with early first generation power, is that there are no parts available for the 567V/W blocks, they haven't been produced for at least 60 years.
The A and B blocks were able to be sent to EMD and be "retrofitted" and "reclassed" as a 567 AC or BC block, this hasn't been a thing for at least 50 years. So if your stuck with a non-updated A or B block, if any parts fail, That's it, its done for, your not getting any replacements unless you can find NOS parts, or machine them. These blocks were very notorious for breaking camshafts (they were one piece machined instead of segmented like later EMDs) and cracking heads, along with cooling system issues.
An updated AC or BC block can accept nearly all the parts a later C series engine can use, including 645 power assemblies (The engines I run at work have 16-645BC engines). These engines are significantly easier to fix and repair and can be fixed with off the shelf parts.
So unless there is someone rich out there who wants to completely restart production of replacement parts for W/V/A/B blocks, the ones remaining operational are on borrowed time, any significant failure will sideline the locomotive forever, unless the entire engine assembly is replaced, which could require modifications to the electrical, frame, and air equipment on board.
Another fun little tidbit: When looking at an EMD engine, for example a 16-645 E3A, The numbers before the hyphen is the number of cylinders, the number after the hyphen is the power assemblies cubic inches, The next letter is the engine family (or major revision) (E), 3 is Railroad application, and A signifies a minor revision (Like on 710s where you have G3, G3A, G3B, G3C etc)
And when swapping something like a C block to 645 power assemblies, it requires not only the assemblies themselves, but revised balancers for the cam and crankshaft, otherwise, the difference in weight can make the engine literally shake itself apart.
Good lord Beeman, thank you for the details on these engines. That's cool. I knew there was a square and round cover 567 but that was about it... lol!
There was a time at the shop I work at where a customer whose transmission was going out wanted to get a new one via warranty since the job was quoted at around $2,500, however he couldn't for whatever reason unless a separate party like a shop broke it. So he bribed us with Olive Garden gift cards to take his car out, I think it was an older Mercedes E350, and try to break the transmission. Behind the shop, we revved that thing to the moon and dropped it from neutral to drive, which is a great way to break an automatic, and eventually, after many minutes of pure bliss, it did. On the service ticket we wrote that it "failed under light to moderate use," and the dealership paid for labor and a new transmission. You could say that we prioritize customer service, LOL.
Olive Garden gift cards? That’s one way to bribe people lol.
@@Stooltoad5017i’d commit crimes for an olive garden gift card
As a wise man once said, sometimes you gotta break a few omelets to make an egg… wait
Bro got confused
You got to omelet a break before you egg some makes
your not locked in here with me I'm locked in here with you... no wait the, the other way
Fr
Making the mother of all eggs here Jack! Can't fret over every omelette
Sounds like if Mr. Smiley couldn't break that engine it could survive anything.
Maby but he ain't me
@@jamesTBurke what did you, WHAT DID YOU DO?
@Spudstered I have demo experience
If it can survive Mr. Smiley, it's *Certified Indestructible.*
Smiley Guy: "Oh I wonder what Im gonna do on shift today--"
Mark (making bird noises): "BREAK THE CHOO CHOO!!!"
I think you found the best possible compromise. If that choo choo didn't break under the tender caresses of Smile Man it could probably be trusted for a few weeks until the parts arrived. There's something to be said for proof testing in such cases. Thanks for the fun story :)
That’s the point of testing this shit: try to break it, so it can’t happen accidentally (unless you give it to enough people, they’ll figure out ways to create accidents)
@@genoobtlp4424 That logic creates as many issues as it prevents, because thrashing stuff can create problems that take days or even weeks to show (that small metal chip or hairline fracture can be invisible on the day, but grenade the entire motor suddenly later), and the excessive wear isn't either accounted for in the maintenance schedule nor felt evenly. For example I've swapped oil/filters both before and after a track day and its come out blacker after than before, despite only a few hundred clicks between.. if I'd considered it a shake down and driven with that oil it would have caused failure of something before next scheduled change. Or to put it another way, you fire a proof round in a new firearm and thats good, you do NOT fire a proof round every time you reassemble it after maintenance, that would be bad.
Yes, a Diesel Masquerading as a Steam Engine might be a problem
Well, they used to include steam generators to masquerade as a steam engine for what the coaches were concerned….
So the water goes in the fuel lines, right?
@@wta1518, yes, and the fuel goes in the water lines. Makes steam pressure so much faster that way.
@@nicholasdowns3502 it also makes loco go bang much faster
also water in fuel lines would put out the fire and fill the smokebox and firebox with water
Honorary steam engines that's alco
poor tom. if i was told "see that thing? im gonna look the other way and everyone else will too, you have five hours to break it. go nuts" i would be fuming if i couldnt cause something to budge and break
That makes sense. The guy tried to break it on purpose, could not do it, that means that most likely the locomotive was good enough to be used. Especially since, as I understand it, it would not have been a huge deal if it broke while it was being used.
Upper Management: "Is that man trying to break that unit?"
Shop Personnel: "Nope, testing it's durability." 😁
This loco was never seen again after it was broken beyond comprehension 😂😂
I like how this story gave the front-line workers an opportunity to prove their point that the locomotive needed to be repaired prior to going out for duty by "breaking" it before it left. The fact that it couldn't be broken is ironic, but it demonstrated that at least one person in "management" could see things from their perspective and was willing to give them a shot.
On an unrelated note, the new camera looks nice (well, the images it captures look nice--you know what I mean).😊
Old EMDs are indestructible, man. You can run them forever on hopes and prayers, they do not care. And yeah, those modular power assemblies make life SO much easier. You can change out an entire power pack in about 4 hours (God willing) with basic hand tools, save for some special EMD specific tools, but those are easy to come by or find substitutions for in a pinch.
Plenty of stuff that uses 567 blocks now runs with 645 power packs because 567 parts are getting pretty hard to come by these days, but 645 stuff is still plentiful. Reading and Northern's ex-NS F units for example.
This is why I love EMDs.
I would really like to hear more about the time you yelled at a guy for violating a blue flag in the shop. I think you said he got fired for other things but the blue flag/lock out-tag out violation is what stands out most in my mind.
Perhaps we need a 101 on block maintenance now, this was a great primer. Now I understand why some mechanics at my local museum say the F9, CF7 and SW8 all have (mostly) the same engine block: the 567s had the larger-bored 645 assemblies installed, even if the block itself is original.
As long as the loco can pull freight, might as well get some use out of it while waiting for parts.
If I'm reading correctly, BNSF downrated the GP50s as the GP25, possibly by changing the governor, gave them new, less powerful traction motors and removed the Super Series wheelslip system
Now _that's_ dynamic breaking!
Interesting when you want it to break it won’t break but when you don’t want it to break it breaks 😊😊
The camera looks so much better, We get a better view its running at 60fps, and It looks like better effects too. It is definitely better for the channel and I am happy to help. 😁 It's good enough to read the text on the boxes on the shelves behind you lol.
Thank you again, my friend!
Hearing about the EMD power assemblies it really makes sense on the longevity of those EMD units. Seeing GP7/9 still working on short lines and grain elevators when their contemporaries from GE, Alco, and others were scrapped decades ago. Also pulling power assemblies (as well as foot crew safety) played into ATSF rebuilding all those F7's into CF7's. Great shop talk a usual Hyse.
I've heard GE has a thing for planned obsolescence, as well...
@andrewreynolds4949 I can understand that nowadays, but in the 60-70's?
@@EWLR89 True, back then they were more worried about trying to finally build something that actually ran reliably
Either God was holding the valves in or the engine just kept working out of total spite!
My money's on spite.
3155, spitting up oil: “I didn’t hear no bell!”
This reminds me of a recent maintenance issue I had with our work Van's, no where near as fun but here it is,
So I'm handed over a van from previous shift and told it might not start and it had to be jump started earlier in the day, I'm a non van critical role that day so I'm not swapping van for someone who really needs it and we had no spares,
So our Van's do regularly go flat (fridge, freezer, alarms, cctv etc etc equipment that sometimes likes to stay on) so I'm letting the van run idle while I load and unload not turning it off for well over an hour so if its charging it has a hope to build charge and sort itself out.
A few hour pass of normal running and bam no start, I'm walking distance from returning Van's so I walk over grab another van and jump start it again.
At this point I'm calling maintenance needing a jump in the morning is ok, during mid run nope something is wrong.
Put the call in explained the situation and I'm asked will it start now? And I say yes I jumped it again let it idle for a while, I'm then told if it starts the technician will probably list it as a non fault and charge the company for the call out and do I want to continue and log the fault.... I'm like seriously? Yes it's not fit to go out.
I complete the fault log and hang up, explained it to my boss who then said so it wont start right? I nodded
Then proceed to return to the van and turn EVERYTHING ELECTRICAL ON left it for 20 minutes came back and the van wouldn't start and sure enough they came in and actually fixed the issue
The fun of maintenance, procedures and working the system to keep everything running!
RPM also increased over the years which helped power. 567 started at 800 and by the end were at 900 which is where 645 started, part of the issue with the 50s was running the 645 at 950RPM, it’s been solved now. 710 run in the low 900s or at 950 although they are design for 1000 RPM
On MPI locomotives 645 got to T2 and EMD offers the 710 in upto T3
Oh cool! Thanks man.
That is correct, but to be fair, 800 to 1000rpm is a 25% increase in power strokes (and 710cu vs 567cu is another 25% in displacement) engine output went up 450% in the same time.
Power increase is instead mostly from higher boost pressure and increased exhaust temperatures, although this is of course cumulative with impact of better port flow, increased combustion efficiency, higher rpm and lower losses. It interest me how much trends in large diesel engines during the horsepower wars mimics the trend in piston aircraft engines during ww2, and how displacements are rising more rapidly and RPM falling again as fuel efficiency, emissions and total lifetime costs once again take over design considerations (increasing power further would have little impact on freight without increasing either train speeds or locomotive weights, although who knows what the future holds major changes to factor of adhesion could revolutionize this).
I'm literally the same machinist, just in the automotive setting. Test it like an airplane, beat on it see what happens
Listening to Mark talk about preventable maintenance
While I'm try to fix a controller oh yeah it all coming together
That thumbnail is absolute bomb. Wings did an awesome job once again. And the new cam is really nice too.
It's absolutely hilarious how on his own he had no problem breaking stuff but as soon as he was told to break something his destructive powers just vanished. 🤣
I love how you mentioned the whole cylinder assembly stuff with the big diesel engines. Some of the older two stroke detroit diesels, you can almost do the same thing. it has cylinder liners. you take the head off, take off the oil pan, take out the pistons, and then the cylinder liners, and, you put new rings on the pistons, put the piston in the new liner assembly (thats how i watched a detroit guy build up a 4-53 detroit) and you slide the assembly into the block (any Detroit guys, correct me if i am wrong) I think cylinder liners are awesome as hell. Thanks for the amazing content as always Hyce.
I worked for the AT&SF in the 70s and 80s so I love your railroad stories and I can really relate.
I've worked in a couple of situations with maintenance people who are rightfully very proud of their work. But if I need a truck to run and I've got one that is borderline operable it's going to have to start running.
I think this solution was the best possible one because it lets the machinists keep pride in their work by being pretty sure it's not going to break and it also lets one of them have one hell of a time trying to break it.
"Mr. Smiley, run this choo choo like it's in the ES&DT"
Fun fact: a friend of mine who is working with me on electrical maintenance only for 3 months in our company (pretty skiled guy, he know the drill, he is mounting automatic gates for houses in his free time) have seen today electro-pneumatic valve (pretty small, no more than 6 bars of pressure and small dimensions of the piping) that overheats due to shortcut on the coil to the point that it blew off. It never happened to me for like 5 years straight, and other older guys also never has seen this before.
So some valves can work years, other ones- not so much. It was fine, part was changed quickly and the machine is working again, but Mark relased the video in perfect day 😁
Another way to look at it is it was a good way to see just how far things can go and hold together cause you never truly know till you find it and it helps confidence in parts
I'm amused that you had to tell him to break it. Any crew I've worked in, it'd be: "We've been given X hours to test it, to make sure it doesn't *emphasis* break. If it *emphasis* breaks, they can't won't release it." "Oh, yes, we need to be sure it won't *emphasis* break, gotcha boss, I'll test it REAL thoroughly."
How Hyce lit up, when he was playing as the mechaic that was allowed to break the coco.
It brithented my day absolutetly!
Thank you marten!
It is nice to see, that you truly read the comments, @@Hyce777, not everyone dies that. or have you just done it because of the donation?
either way, nice to get a reply from you!
Typical that the one time an EMD 50 series unit might been forgiven for breaking and the thing shows uncanny reliability... we here in the UK call that sods law XD
That moment when making things explode becomes part of the job. BEST MOMENT EVER! never experienced it personally but can`t wait till it happens.
These broken loco pics need to go in a 321 go meme
Gotta say, love the new camera! It is indeed a marked improvement to the old one, however as I only watch videos here on TH-cam I am not privy to any of the "glitches" you speak of. I can easily believe they happen, older webcams of a few brands are NOTORIOUS for it, but I'm just saying that I have no evidence that I have seen with my own two eyes.
I need more stories from the shop videos
Anything is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough. Mr. Smiley just didn't use it wrong enough.
In fact it was a pretty clever move to do such an heavy stress test.
If it fails, it fails, but it didn't, more confidently proving that it could go back to work.
Fun facts that maintenance with EMD is why Chicago's Metra only uses EMD locomotives for its commuters service. So much so that they are repurposing freight locomotives to passenger service instead of buying something more modern and better suited to the tighter passenger train operations. I suspect as they go into widespread operation they will have a ton of derailments like the sdp40f had back in the day
The reasons why the SDP40f was so prone to derailments (steam boiler sloshing, harmonic forces with lightweight baggage cars, and the truck bolster design) don't really apply to the SD70MACH, it's unlikely they will cause any significant problems
@@andrewreynolds4949 Fair enough, the articles I read set up the sdp40f had derailment problems because of the 3 axel bogies were too big and lack the adequate rotation capability to navigate the tight curves of major terminus stations. But but if that's just straight up incorrect then I humbly eat my words
@@stratagama That's likely the issue particularly with the Chicago area and other large termini, but something to note is the SD70MACH has much better, more flexible wheelsets than the SDP40f did. I look forward to seeing how they do; the main complaint I see about them is they're perceived as too large, too heavy, and thus too inefficient for commuter service, but I wonder if the extra axles might help with acceleration.
@@andrewreynolds4949 The middle axles are unpowered, making the MACHs A1A-A1A, like the old E-units. The energy that would have gone to them is diverted for HEP.
Also, its worth noting that Metra had (technically still has, iirc) the F40C on roster. That was essentially the HEP version of the SDP40F, with six axle trucks and all. And by all accounts the F40Cs gave excellent service until retirement a few years ago (though, as noted, they MAY still have a couple in reserve).
The Locomotive was like I "You shall not pass!"
The thing that made the 50 series need special power assembles is electronic fuel injection.
no? they still had a governor and mechanical rack
@@Hyce777 maybe I’m wrong but I could’ve sworn that was the 645 variant that had the EFI? Maybe that’s not it then. My bad.
Stories from the shop is my favorite
These stories are always fun because it relates so much to my work. I build locomotive pod generators, we have the same stresses working on these as Hyce did. Sometimes we just have to rush them trying to get them built and through testing because a customer has a locomotive down.
Did quality control for a summer job back in highschool, and the best days were always the "break the **** outta this" days!
Dude I LOVE that Baldwin boiler plate! I’ve been hunting one forever but everyone knows how cool and pricey they are lol
This is my favorite series
14:44 *casually pulls out M1A2 abrams*
Can't wait to buy some merch when the new stuff comes out. The camera was an excellent choice, too!
Now, THAT'S a tough choo-choo!
New webcam looks great
I cant imagine dropping a valve while under load is not gonna cause A LOT more damage than just one power assembly. I don't see the turbo surviving as its almost guaranteed to send metal out the wide open exhaust ports. I'd also be curious if the piston could stay intact after smashing valves into the head a few dozen times every second it continues to rotate.
Not sure for turbo stuff but in terms of the piston no one at that level cares. That’s a machine shops problem if the piston and/or head dies as it all gets replaced simultaneously with how those engines are built.
LoL Its like walking up to someone. "HHeeeeeeyyyyyy, how you doing" Tom you like breaking stuff XD break that train do what ever it takes. LoL I laughing so hard at that.
Surprisingly, some EMD 710s were able to somehow meet Tier 2, CPKCs GP-20C-ECOs are examples of this (although they went with T0+ to cut costs)
EMD have also apparently, somehow got the 710G to meet Tier 4 for use in marine applications
Diesels in tractors and heavy trucks are the same way of being able to replace sleeve and all
You have 5 hours, BREAK THE CHOO CHOO!
Very funny how he would light up at breaking a choo choo.
Mr Smily couldn’t make the engine go ping
It's the mentality of bosses like that has trains stalling out on the side off mountains forcing conductors to tie down 50 60 cars and every train to need dog caught but as long as so and so has good numbers who cares right.
My Grandfather was jr vp for emd rebuild division in Chicago and I heard stories and saw pictures of some incredible things. Some of the pics looked like King Kong grabbed a gp 20 and twisted it like warm taffy. Ever see an sd 25 bent into a u shape. Thats what happens when lift cables break.
Great story!!! Thanks for sharing. :-) :-) 🙂 My dad was a lead man for TWA airlines and this reminds me of some of the stories he's told me.
An excellent case of “the principle of the matter” haha.
One inane shop story for me is when I was working as a welder at a restoration shop, we had one project with an argumentative customer who wanted us to cut up a pristine ‘50 Chevy fleetline coupe to put the good metal into his Swiss cheese fleetline of the same year-including cutting off the entire top of the hood car and swapping it onto the rusty rotten car. (And was painfully slow to pay.)
... Just, why? Lol. That must've been heartbreaking.
@@Hyce777 sentimentality I believe. (Didn’t want to swap the internals into the “new” chassis.) It was his dad’s only car from new. Granola bar rust. Frame bent like a V. Literally filled up a whole shop vac vacuuming up the floor, since welding to rust is hard haha.
Task unsuccessfully failed.
I mean, clearly the locomotive heard you tell Mr. Smiley, and it was just gonna hang in there out of nothing but all the pure, unadulterated spite an EMD product can muster... lol
I would have been on that locomotive in no time hearing you have 5 hours
I want to hear every story about this mechanic
Some say that 3155 is still out there, looking for Mr. Smiley.... He tried to break her. Ohhhh, he tried so hard, but she wouldn't be broken. And now, she wants her vengeance!
Or her assemblies swapped out again. That's fine too.
Mark the fates were playing, if you didn’t want it to break guess what?! 😂 That was a fun story. Also liked your instructional description of the valves and all that. Not knowing much about diesel choo choos I really appreciated this. The new web cam is fab echo a shout out thanks to Chris Gill! Also liking the new T shirt can’t wait to get one and seeing the new store! As always many thanks Professor for sharing your shop stories-you’re an awesome storyteller. As always cheers to you my friend!
"Weird differences"
So, every locomotive is basically how every Corvette owner describes his Corvette?
lol pretty much
I didn't get a chance to see this the day it came out but I'm glade I'd didn't. Now I have several videos I can watch while recovering for wisdom tooth surgery
Oof! I've always heard that's a tough one. Hope you're healing fine :)
@@Hyce777 it's definitely been tough healing pretty slow. But I'll be alright. 😊
the train is so badass for not breaking on tom
Damn the camera quality on this is just delightful. Im excited for this story. :)
Hey so I have a question, when you guys would change PAs, did you always change them as a head, liner, piston, and the conn rod?
I'm curious because where I work, we usually change PAs as "minis" (meaning without the rod). We only do "maxis" (with the rod) when there's been damage to the rod.
You know; I'm not sure if they took the rod with or not... been too long.
@Hyce777 I see. I can somewhat imagine both ways being beneficial. Pulling the snap ring out from under the piston carrier (and even more so getting it back in) can be a next level pain in the butt so it might save some man hours to just pull the rod too and call it a day.
But the flipside of that would have to be that, in order to pull a blade rod, you'd then have to pull the basket rod side first, so now you'd have to do twice the work.
No wonder no one ordered any more of the BL2s, the only practical option to do maintenance if something would be to take at least part of the roof off!
there are also now 1010J prime movers in the new SD70AH-T4!
Chris gill is a real one
Happy Sunday Hyce!
Love these stories
I love the stories from the shop
Sometime this year with RGS 41 restored, you guys should bring RGS 20 to Durango and double head the two. Would be like the olden days.😊
RGS 41 is back at Knotts Berry Farm in California.
@Hyce777 oh I didn't know it was just visiting durango
Well, I thought that workshops have lots of broken stuff in them, so why not take out the good part and move the broken one in. Or maybe try to break something else, maybe even help it a little and make it like "Oh, we were testing the engine, but as it was at high RPMs, this thingy broke." way.
I think the GP40X became the GP50. The wheel slip control was a doppler RADAR pointed at the ground and a comparator that compared the RADAR speed to the wheel speed. In the late 1970s it was "cutting edge" for the ATSF. Doppler RADAR is not all that accurate and the whole system was kind of janky anyway.
YEESSSSSS new shirts
This series should be called “shit at the shop” or SATS lol
Shit happens in the shop, or "SHITS"?
@@andrewreynolds4949 XD
Both maybe lol
Really neat story, sir! Thanks for sharing it! :D
Of course had you just gone ah what are the odds and just released it the loco would have grenaded the prime mover moving it to the ready track. Remember hearing about the issues with the SD and GP50s. Remember when the GP50s were point on just about every hot train and then they weren't. Funny thing was last year or the year before post from Illinois Railway Museum pops up on my Facebook feed announcing their acquisition of a CNW SD50. In my head I'm thinking that can't be because museums are supposed to have locomotives that were out of service or obsolete before my birth or running out their last revenue miles as a teen not the new locomotives me and my crew chased in our mid and late 20s.
EMDs being f*cking *invincible:*
New camera looks good
Love the story hyce I hope you tell more story and love the new goPro
Would love to hear if there are any stories about the SD75s which have come to call the Everett - Longview Junction runs home
SD50/25 are the USS Nevada of locomotives
Great stuff like always hyce.
When I saw that the title said “SFS” I thought it was about space flight simulator lol
Running it off the end of track counts as breaking it
Hmm, yes, hammer…
Unless im misunderstanding there's really not much difference between replacing the stuff on an car engine vs these besides the size you're only going to have to surface the insides of the piston housings if they've been damaged from something being seriously wrong but you should be fine replacing the internals without having to do any of thst kind of surfacing unless stuff has warped from overheating
15:15 on, American engineering at it's best lol
Great story
Seems reasonable... Stress test as hard as you have means because you can only do so much to try and ensure that it's in good operating condition when you don't have the right parts. At least then if it goes back and blows up you did the best and you told people the risk.