EV versus diesel ute: what's REALLY really greener? | Auto Expert John Cadogan
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 เม.ย. 2023
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CRITICAL ERROR IN THIS REPORT!
I'm addressing it, and taking complete ownership of the problem in this video: • I screwed up about EVs...
This correction will be live by 5pm Friday April 21, 2023
Apologies for any inconvenience.
In the report I erroneously calculated the carbon-dioxide emissions from the Australian electricity grid at 1.4kg of CO2 per kilowatt-hour. The correct figure is 720grams of CO2 per kWh.
This is at about the 19-minute mark on the timeline, and there are knock-on effects from there.
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You never factored 1000x increase of brake and tyre particulate pollution from EV's into your assessment.
Well spoken JC.
I found my aggressive cancer (double hit lymphoma) by finding a lump on one of my Sherrins. Saw GP quick start.
Self - (or get Tiffany to help) - examination saves lives.
My mum said if you fiddle with those things too much you will go mad ... I wished I had listened to her 🤪
@@oliverlaw02 EVs will produce a little more tyre particulates simply down to their increased weight but far less brake particulates.
@@ChrisWells1 +1 same thing happened to me. That was when I was 39 , I nearly died , but pulled through . Turning 60 next month.
Thanks for this, John.
As a recently retired engineer in the UK who has just replaced his car, I thought I'd run the numbers on my own vehicle and country. I just replaced my 23 year old diesel "supermini" class car with a larger (more practical) diesel SUV. In the UK, most ICE cars pay an annual tax based on carbon emissions, so I have those figures. I looked up the distance per Kwh of the equivalent EV from my car's manufacturer. There are figures available for the amount of CO2 per Kwh for mains electricity too.
No surprises, the EV has to travel at least 50,000 km before it matches the CO2 of the ICE.
Being a grizzled old cynic and statistician, I can see there are some flaws in the maths for this:
1. The extra CO2 in the manufacture of the EV comes from a car manufacturer, so I would judge this to be optimistic.
2. The distance per Kwh also comes from a car manufacturer so the same applies.
3. The CO2 per Kwh generated is an average. When the wind blows and the sun shines, UK power is about 50% wind and solar. Most EVs are home charged overnight, so that figure is also questionable.
Independent calculations put the carbon "break even" distance between 80,000 and 100,000 km which feels closer to the truth.
Reasons for my vehicle choice:
1. Diesel over petrol. There is a version of my vehicle with a petrol engine: same fuel consumption, same power, same carbon emissions. The diesel is clean (DPF & Adblue/urea injection) but produces 40% more torque which I prefer as a driver.
2. ICE over EV. The UK simply doesn't cut it when it comes to public charging points. Too few, too many out of service. The city where I live has two or more independent service businesses per brand of car (I hate main dealers and their prices). We have just one EV specialist to cover all brands. Servicing tends to be expensive. My budget limits me to cars which are 4-6 years old. EVs this age will have (at best) a half-shagged battery. I'm a pensioner and don't need that sort of grief.
3. As the law currently stands, we will not be able to buy ICE cars after 2030, so as the date approaches, their value will increase. My previous car lasted me 17 years (and is still a going concern for it's current owner), so now is the time to buy diesel in the UK.
If I ever need to run "zero carbon" personal transport, then I'll have a solar array and an electric motorcycle (although I'll keep my 1980s two-stroke as long as I can).
My two-penneth.
Yes, I to drive a TUSON 2.5ltr turbo 8 speed diesel!!! I reasently rented an EV MGzs trophy. I was very impressed, gave it a hi speed run up a windy mountain road. And on the road home through flood waters up to the door handles with a wave going over the bonet and up the side window with no problems 😊 10/10
Wow. Those two words, Testicular Cancer, automatically bring tears to my eyes, if you know what I mean.
As currently getting through stage 4 Melanoma myself, and looking out for the nice old bloke across the street who’s punching through Prostrate Radium treatment….I applaud and appreciate all and any publicity to awareness of The Big C.
John Cadogan, you are a great man doing great things. Salute and Thimbs up Emojis.
yeah, well spoken. Wishing you health Doug.
I'm a 2x cancer (St IV) survivor myself, also playing without one of my Sherrins.
I hope you get well and best of luck for your future.
A quick test for the dreaded TC is a pregnancy test. Men don't usually have a need for such a thing but TC produces a similar steroid hormone as does pregnancy. So 2 blue lines is permission to panic and make a medical appointment. Fun fact, many sportsmen who cheat with steroids may develop TC. How many cyclists or body builders develop TC?
When John shares his real life stories of his dad, it's a wake up call about how insidious cancer can be. Mine is Prostate cancer. Surgery, then radiation, now hormone treatment.
Those marketers are very clever.
Yep. In a long moment of boredom, I did considerable research on the subject of EV use in Australia, several years ago. My figures were not dissimilar to Mr. Cadogan's.
I have been challenged many times on my findings, most recently, by an electrical engineering student. He was the first one to check both my methodology and my math. He was very surprised that his beliefs and "the facts" were not concurrent.
Congruent, not concurrent; in your context.
@@attilajuhasz2526 English professor.😊
@@attilajuhasz2526 You are indeed, correct. Thank you.
Didn't age well, if you got the same numbers, you also made a mistake...
im a d,ass,,i know all this green bs is bs..solar pnls, not recycleable, wind farms cost more to re cycle,,if you can,,than they produce,,EV,s take 70 yrs to break even..plus, initial cost is 3 times a normal car,,all this bs in by the lefts, epa, & fkn green brigade gods to them selves..PROVE ME WRONG..watch vids on wind farms destroying themselves,,s/pnls, being buried,, kids dying from mining cobolt lithium..its bs..BUT,,ITS FKN GREEN,,EH.. ever looked at lpg, or sodium reactors,,of course not,,there ilegal..
The whole climate issue is interesting. I was watching a history programme about the Roman invasion of what is now England, Once the Romans were established, they set up vine yards due to the warm climate. When I looked into wine producing in England, it appears it mainly disappeared during the mini ice age that ran from about 1000 to around 1855 ish. From what I could make out, the Romans invaded during what was a warming period and the mini ice age was a cooling period. We are now in a warming period again. I am not sure that humans will stop the climate warming or cooling as it goes through its cycles.
Yep the FACTS of history has a funny way of calling BS on all this climate the end is nigh stuff.
From what I understand those vineyard went all the way to Scotland. The politicians and media would lose their tiny minds if it got that warm AGAIN today to produce wine in Scotland. Lol
lol
interesting
i read the same thing
nature does work in cycles
we are a cog in that cycle of the modern world
that cog will turn even if we all disappear
i think we make bog all difference to climate and its change
we are just living it and a part of the cycle
it may have happened before
who knows lol
no matter what they think they know or tell us
we cannot control climate change
its a bad propaganda tool that is showing its failure
environmentally acclaimed EVs for a start are just producing
pollution elsewhere
just not behind you on the tail
but instead from coal energy in most countries
the batteries under the seats of EVs
are probably one of the most destructive elements to the modern era
and i find it a bad joke having several thousand of them in a cooling chamber
to keep them cool and efficient
there is a real benefit for having weight in the floor is the central gravity of the
battery operated car, stick to the roads i wouldve thought
but
it takes just one cell to be faulty
then thermal runaway
and as mentioned by John the Aussie
batteries are a pollutant debt
recycle my arse
they are the problem and
bloody dangerous
i would rather sit on a barrel of petrol
im not against EVs
im against the push towards this carbon neutral control
zero emissions bs
The EV is also a bit of a spy on the consumer
it can tell the company where you have been what you where wearing
if you where driving
its spying on your life, like a cashless society would !!
i know information is given to 3rd companies that have public charging units
i heard Teslas have been banned from all
government car parks in China lol
what next
your motor your space in comfort may become the FBI or MI5 agent in your drive
whatever, we all know they have cameras on every angle and can listen to your conversations
and others around the car
Ford are making a big mistake with others many others
following a TREND of the electrification
find your own trend thats where a companies MOJO is
something that is upon us TRENDERS
do what others are doing
climate is ever changing,
we cant stop that change or cycle
in the process in trying to we are destroying our environment
this can be rectified or stopped
but the climate cannot
that's my take
here's a quote i heard
by TRYING to save the climate
are we destroying the environment
another quote unnamed coz i cant remember lol
mother nature doesnt look at carbon as a pollutant
but as a building block of natural production
so lets have a future with more trees and clean waterways and not an array of solar panels and wind farms
that find theyre way into a windfarm graveyards of non recyclable tosh lol
sorry for the rant you got me going after reading your comment
a bloody good point
cheers
Heating and cooling cycles *are* a thing. But we're actually in a *cooling* cycle at the moment, and the natural cycles have been more than swamped by human activity.
@@AnnOminous7 "more than swamped by human activity"
That's what the elites in their private jets and beachfront properties want us to believe. They want us in 15-minute cities eating bugs with no freedom whatsoever, and many will accept it because they believe in the global warming hoax.
Yes there have been cycles but nothing like the current measurements indicate, you are just repeating the bs that circulates online.
Props to your ability to monologue unedited so well.
Thank you for your logic. A breath of fresh air.
Except it was all wrong. but whatever
I use my model S for around town and short trips up to 120Km, it is charged each day via my 14Kw/hr solar array. For me the Tesla is not my green utopia answer, its simply my answer for short trips and less oil changes. My Jeep GC is my longer range and tow car. I live on both worlds and will continue to do so.
If I had a Jeep I'd probably use it sparingly too.
On a more serious note, good on you for actually getting the concept of use cases... so many staunch pro-EV and anti-EV people don't get that EVs are good at some things and suck at others. Same with ICE.
Is your array grid tied or the energy stored in a 14kwh battery swtup?
Holy crap man not only a Tesla but a Jeep as well. You like to live on the edge, I will give you that.
/s
Aussie I reckon you would save more carbon if you exported the charging power to the grid and took the jeep. Agree though running costs are cheaper because grid doesn't pay well for power exported.
@@smileyfacefrown2723 he has achieved Nirvana.
Used to love dads old Massey Ferguson starting up belting black smoke, nothing better in the morning.
Well presented, always appreciate your commitment to facts and common sense!
Nice piece, including 'duos' with the finger inversion. Cancer survivor here, this time 10 years ago was halfway through some solid chemo, one of the lucky ones, keep checking stuff and keep being aware of any changes in things, I was pretty close to getting dead at 49. John, you could also go into the mining of this stuff, the yields of lithium and cobalt and even copper is horrifically low and the increase in mining to meet this expected demand is in the thousands of percent. The toxic overtailings of some of these elements may also not be fully understood.
I ride around in a 125cc motorcycle and only use the dual cab for prospecting trips or giving the grandkids a lift. For 8 dollars I can go 250 kilometres. I challenge any ev owner to beat that. Keep up the good work John.
Next John Cadogan deep dive: Motorcycle death rate per km traveled.
I hope you carry a donor card.
40kms for 23 cents but it’s at 40kms/hour followed by a 6 hour recharge. I could go further but after an hour the batteries are not the only thing ready for a rest. Dragon GTR or equivalent, plus supporting mods. If you know you know.
Also your 125cc motorcycle still has oil tyres brakes spark plug chain and registration. Possibly also insurance. My EV has tyres and brakes. Some times I wipe the dirt off it
EV with no registration or insurance .... what country is this? i need to relocate.@@theairstig9164
average ev runs at 180Wh per km. That's 0.180kWh/km. My electricity costs 33c per kWh. For 250km, my electricity would cost 0.180 x 0.33 x 250 dollars = $14.85. How much does it cost to run the dual cab 250km?
Thanks for taking the time to do all the research on this matter. I look forward to some of the comments below.
Thank you John, one of the best yet! Cold hard facts!!!!!!!!!!!
Most people don’t buy ev’s for environmental reasons. It’s mainly because of the better city driving experience and home charging. Some also prefer not to sponsor wars in the Middle East. Cleaner city air is a major reason for millions saved on future health spending. Diesel will remain the favourite for the Outback.
And trains and earth movers and stationary engines and inboard marine engines
@@theairstig9164 Trans? Not all trains, plenty of them are electric anyway. Electric conversion taking place on Adelaides surburban trains right now.
Lol you mean they buy it to show off that they feel financially and morally superior 😂
John, You are spot on - on this subject. God on you for having the guts to call it.
Don't forget the CO2 expended by the ship transporting the battery from where the battery is made to where the car is assembled.
Your analysis is spot on JC, with no reference to the fictional character intended. I have proffesionaly contributed to carbon accounting in the past. One of the sanity tests I used to use to validate high fidelity Carbon accounting was the 1USD = 0.50 Kg of co2. This comes close to your analysis. The basics of EV compared to comparable mass (kg) combustion cars have remained the same for the last decade. Compare a Nissan leaf with, say, a Suzuki swift ten years ago. My personal solution is a hyundai ionic (40 Kw battery) charged by a second-hand 15 Kw solar array. This arrangement will still take 10 years of use to catch up with the dollar expense of a comparable FF vehicle. Why bother? Well, I just love the idea of being off grid and independent. It's how I get a little joy out of life. Unfortunately, after pursuing a career in sustainability, and I am now retired, I am convinced that trying to get humans to reduce their consumption to preserve the prospects for future generations is an almost lost cause.
Purely on a technicality, JC is a historical figure
Except that he was wrong, which he explains in the next video 😂
@@RichardWallis-jf8qm Not to the extent that you're suggesting, and it doesn't actually change the conclusion.
He was very wrong
Electric vehicles typically have a smaller carbon footprint than gasoline cars, even when accounting for the electricity used for charging. Electric vehicles (EVs) have no tailpipe emissions.
As a dual Canadian - Australian who lived in Australia for more than 40 years I always like to compare the two places. Here in Ontario the grid does not produce much CO2 as it is 50% nuclear, 25% hydro, 10% wind/solar and 15% gas - no coal at all. The base load of nuclear and hydro is available 24x7x365. Therefore overnight there is a surplus of power. About a week ago the Ontario government announced a new electricity tariff of just 2.4 cents per kilowatt hour between the hours of 11pm and 7am when surplus power is available. It is aimed at EV owners but is available to everyone. At that rate the cost to charge a 70 KWH EV battery from 0% to 100% is $1.68. Today the cost of a litre of 87 octane petrol at my local servo is $1.65. If an EV got 300 km of range on a full battery that's a long way to go for a $1.65. For a petrol car getting say, 7 litres per 100 km, going 300 km would cost $70.71. This is $69.03 cost saving every time you fill up with electricity rather than petrol. Makes the EV look very cheap to run even without adding in the savings in service costs.
With EV costs dropping like a stone at the moment and increasing government subsidies the prime motivator for getting an EV is starting to be the hip pocket nerve and that is a very strong motivator for almost everyone.
They should not allow Australian politician to talk to peers from Germany about "how to/NOT mange Energy market"...The Ontario Nuclear study case should be on read by every politician in Australian
Had calculated something similar myself JC. Great video.
Hi John,
I didn't see it in the comments already, but you talked about the battery contents and their CO2 load, but I don't remember hearing about the cost to pump the crude and refine the petroleum used to burn in the non-EV vehicle.
It may just bring the slight favor of the petrol even with the EV to on-par, similar to your 'wash' assumption.
Regards,
Kenn ('Merica)
Plus the co2 involved in the transport and distribution of petroleum.
Or the transportation of coal from the coal mine.
Or the millions of litres of raw fuel oil burned transporting batteries (and all imported consumer products) from China.
oR charge efficiency of the grid...
works out very similar to refinement efficiency,,,, both about 1O%, so a bit of a wash.
Cost to mine coal, transport, burn, generate, transmit (plus line losses), step up then down through transformers, let alone built the transmission infrastructure....convert a/c to d/c for charging. Yep EV charging sure is greener. Hang on did I mention the production of the batteries....?? Sounds like you should join the EV Council too. Peanut.
I don't have to worry about testicular cancer because I don't have any testicles. My wife keeps them in her purse and I have not seen them in over a decade.
Ha Ha Ha 🤣
So happy you are a realist. I have been awake for some time. Respect
You clearly have the DNA of Sir John Ivan George CADOGAN! If you have not "Wikipedia'ed" him, you should. Love your work, John. Looking forward to your next presentation.
Went to Caringbah Bunnings last week. Saw two middle aged men either side of an EV charging station they had. One a volvo and the other a tesla. Took about 15 minutes to get what I wanted. These men were still chatting away at the EV charger with their vehicles still charging as I
took off. My last thought was, I’m glad I had an ICE vehicle.
It's blokes like those two members of the Caringbah EV Mutual Admiration Society that keep standing in the way of EVs becoming mainstream.
Au contraire, that is the reality of owning an electron powered shitbox.
As a bit of an old bugger myself, having a half hour chat upon meeting a mate at Bunnings is not uncommon. I don't drive an EV....
After they're done moaning about EVs, don't most old cogers start going on about how no one takes the time to talk to one another anymore?
@@0HOON0 A hoon is an Australian term describing a person who deliberately drives a vehicle in a reckless or dangerous manner, generally in order to provoke a reaction from onlookers. Lol have a good day Hoon.
At last a review that gets to the point - one issue with electricity is transmission and distribution losses which aren't discussed and amount to about 10% !!
Not counting the 40% efficiency of the typical thermal generator, usually fossil fuel powered, or the 75% efficiency of the EVs battery. All together we have about 25% efficiency for the EV plugged into a fossil fueled power grid. Almost the same efficiency of a typical gasoline ICE, and less efficient than a diesel ICE.
Thanks for doing the numbers 👍
Hi John, for so many, it's 'don't let the facts get in the way of a good story'. Great job.
I watched a video about Tesla trucks and the guy was saying they asked a city in Illinois to set up a yard for 30 trucks and the current draw was more than the entire city uses
A Tesla Semi has a 900 KWH battery, so 30 of them would equate to 30 X 900 = 27000 KWH. The average US household uses 29 KWH a day but let's call it 27 KWH
So that means 30 Semi's doing 1.5 full charges a day would equal 1500 average households, so this is a city with 1500 x 4 = 6000 people ??
@@danielstapler4315can't the semi charge at 1MW? So 30 trucks charging at once would be 30MW.
@@rjbiker66 Yes, I can see my mistake now. To have a facility that charges 30 Teslas every hour for 24 hours a day would equal the usage for a city of about 100,000 people.
Thanks for this John, it's nice to have a spin-free analysis of the facts.
I would also think that the shorter lifespan of many EVs would be a contributor? A lot of ICEs stay on the road 15-20 years whereas it's very hard to imagine anyone spending $30000 on a new battery for an 8 year old EV so the "debt" for the building of a new one will have to be paid again.
I'll give your feedback to my 13 year old traction battery that is still going strong.
@@rickadrian2675 haha what percentage of its original capacity does it have now?
Would you like to make a vid or two on battery wear, recycling & replacement please? No one seems to bother by these facts. Also what it adds to the depreciation of EV price. I know hopefully it will be different in 10 to 20 years ahead when swamped with Chinese trash ( if we are not at war) but as for now I would like an App that would calculate on present data how much I would lose on a new EV say in 5 years time.
Thank you John 👍
Thankyou John for the information Well done
Made a qiuck calculation for Norway (Mostly Hydro and Wind in the energy mix). Official numbers are for 2019 = 19g co2/KWh and for 2021 = 8g co2/KWh.
170w/km in an EV in Norway are (if I have not messed it up).
2019 = 3,23g/km.
2021 = 1,36g/km.
I have an MG4 Luxury comming and my driving with an equal test car in the winter have given me between 169 and 210wh/km, so 170wh/km in average for a year should not be to far off.
It is 1685kg and have a battery capacity at 64,5KWh (62KWh net capacity). Asuming it have a ton of steel in it (1800kg co2) and 6450kg co2 in the battery we get aprox 8250kg of co2 lets say 8500kg of co2 in the car delivered at my drive.
My present car is a 2007 Toyota Auris 2,0d it usees (on a good day) 0,66L/10km or 0,066L/km of diesel. Aprox 145g co2/km. And ways in at around 1400kg.
My Toyota have done over 340000km = 49300kg of co2 + of course 2500kg co2 from its steel. Around 52000kg of co2 so far.
My Mg wil start with 8500kg/co2 and emit (at worst) 1,36g/km here in Norway.
At 340000km it wil be at 463g + 8500kg from production at total of 8500,463kg
To be honnest, the numbers are a bit worse for both cars but not by much.
What do this mean? The grid composition is the key to how much we pollute.
While beeing honnest, I have ordered an EV because it saves me money. Beeing green and al that is fine but for me (and most Norwegians) it's abaut the money.
I do acknowledge EV is very good to reduse lokal pollution but it's not the sole answer to the problem, infact it's only a smal part of the solution.
Norway...huge fossil fuel exporter.
Excellent summary. The numbers John uses are today's numbers not the future. If the majority of electricity is renewable then both the battery production and usage numbers change dramatically as shown by your example. In 2013 Australia had 15% renewable power and now almost double that.
You seem to have dropped a 'k' so 8546kg. Still 46kg is not a lot compared with 50T
Energy mix during manufacture is a big deal for steel and batteries. That is a hard problem to fix. My EVs are tiny but they will be half way through their useful life by the time their manufacture CO2 is offset by avoiding ICE passenger vehicle trips.
I’m saving money by not buying consumables but those EVs aren’t maintenance free. I toasted a BMS yesterday. It’s easy to buy a replacement but FMD it’s a pain to install the new one
@@stevelloyd5785
🤔
340000*1,36=462400 grams
462400/1000= 462,4 Kg
For my country:
340000*61.4= 20876000
20876000/1000 =20876 Kg
which is actually bs as my country isn't 50% renewable like the site i found projects.
soo its much worse than this.
Thanks John! Very informative.
It’s interesting you’ve mentioned the Ranger Wildtrack and the Iconic 5 in the same sentence. There are a few people I know cross researching these.
Any chance you can do a new video about wait times?
Ioniq 5
Great video John. All the best to your dad mate.
Excellent research.
I do feel it's a bit disingenuous when you have ignored the CO2 that is produced for the distillation of oil and the delivery of the fuel to the distribution service stations, refinery do rely on the same electricity grid as the electric cars, Unless it's produced over seas then the heavy oil being used in cargo ships is another issue.
I do agree that we need to address the issues surrounding the power grid, I do fear that once the reliance on battery storage and renewable energy supplies ever become a reality. We really need to build nuclear reactors to replace the coal power plants being decommissioned.
You have good questions , but remember that the same exploration , extraction transportation and production costs and emissions are present in battery manufacturing. And the manufacture of the batteries is mostly done where there are no environmental controls or safeguards , whereas there are quite a few of said controls etc in Japan , Thailand , Europe , the US etc, where most of the ICE vehicles are produced.
If
More so re batteries , as cobalt is quite toxic. And the mining in Africa is very labour intensive, and life expectancy is affected , and the cost of workers is very low.
I agree that the chemistry of li-ion that contains colbolt is extremely dangerous to people. There are lithium based batteries that don't have colbolt in them.
Do I think that battery-powered vehicles will make the internal combustion engine extinct? Absolutely not
EV have a place in the reduction of pollution in large cities and if our incompetent politicians can make our electricity grid not reliant on fossil fuels then the vehicle could be deemed a lower producer of pollutants
John, I'm getting pretty tired of seeing you throw the paper to an imaginary bin and never showing us.
Again I call for a bin cam.
As someone with a fully off grid all electric home and an EV enthusiast I always Appreciate your data based approach on things to check myself amongst the hype John.
However while It is easy to get caught up in corporate and political greenwashing of things I also feel your datasets sometimes fail to account for the many variables that occur with rapidly developing technology in this area that will be propelled by market forces in coming years.
When we talk about people making the decision between a diesel Ute and an EV we need to consider the net carbon of both vehicles over the entire lifetime of the vehicles. This needs to include consideration to how the co2 of the grid will decrease over that time. And to be fair, the cost of replacing batteries and the embodied energy involved in doing so.
You did refer to this in regards to the issue of intermittency in renewable generation in the grid however you did so under the premise that current battery technology makes solving this issue unviable and that the (current) difference in purchasing relatively expensive EVs would be better put towards consumer level decarbonisation through the purchase of rooftop solar.
However I believe the insane domestic uptake of rooftop solar in Aus provides the perfect technological analogy for why we should be purchasing (some) EVs now based on future grid modeling.
I think your largest technological oversight here is that your argument assumes that people buying EVs will only add to the problem of intermittent renewables by increasing strain on the current carbon rich grid rather than them actually providing one of the most obvious solutions To help stabilise and decarbonise it.
With existing (currently expensive) Virtual Power plant technology, each parked vehicle with v2G capability can effectively become a part of a massive distributed battery system in the same way rooftop solar has become a massive distributed power generator.
Therefore I believe that in the near future EVs
bought today with atleast vehicle to load capability (eg, MG, BYD) will help stabilise the very runaway intermittent renewable generation that will make them net lower co2 generating in their lifetime.
I admit that this is specific to cars that currently have or could be adapted in the future to contribute to virtual power plants, but it is just one example of how small changes in technology can drastically impact the net modeling we use to make arguments like the one in this video.
I've just put an order in for the BYD with the intention of using it to back up our off-grid house battery in poor weather. Hopefully should cut genset runtime to almost zero (currently 3% of power from genset).
@@tomkimber9072 Off grid remote rural NSW here 24V system I rarely have a problem with battery storage and rarely fire up the gen even in winter but may add I run a wind generator that keeps the system topped at night. House workshop ect is all on a separate 12V system led for lighting good luck
@@TheSilmarillian I've now got the car and it works great. At current we've drawn about 500kwh from the genset in 3 years and about 20,000kwh from the solar. Car has cut genset time down considerably but I still need to get the wiring done to be able to charge the home battery direct from the V2L. Wind not viable for us but the system is 240v and runs electric everything - induction, split systems, hot water etc.
His argument is NOT flawed. I did a match up in the US with American grid electricity at only 0.858 pounds per kwh, and a Ford Lightening EV getting only 2 miles per kwh. I then compared it to my Ford Fusion HYBRID with gasoline at 19.6 pounds per gallon and my average fuel economy of 50 miles per gallon. The Fusion (MONDEO) eakes out a slim victory. This does not even take into account the massive amounts of CO2 emitted in producing the Ford pickup EV's enormous battery. The analysis is spot on...👍👍👍
What about accounting for emissions related to oil extraction, refinement and distribution? Maybe too hard to break down to a ‘per km’ value in this format.
There isn’t yet an EV that suits my needs (or desired outlay), but it does seem inevitable.
As an additional point on grid electricity, in South Australia in 2022 there were apparently more than 180 days when all electricity demand was met by renewable sources. There seems to be solar projects going on all the time so the statistics are going to keep changing.
The same can be said for solar panel manufacture, we also need to account for emissions related to the extraction, refinement and distribution of the materials used. At the moment, there simply isn't a clear winner. For the money that can be saved by buying an ICE car over EV (or any variation of) you can put a solar system on your roof with battery backup, just like John said. That definitely helps clarify the situation!
Once all vehicle manufacturing is for EVs with lithium batteries, the spike of CO2 emissions in their making is going to be horrendous!
@@clivefrear1784 : thankyou Coal exporting terminals - you allow for Green W&nkers to crow... Hope their $hit is all golden going forward. - before the rotten eggs hatch.
Yes but it was only for a couple of minutes each day on those 180 days.
SA has the most green renewable grid and the highest energy prices of any other state.
Why are we being told renewables are cheaper?
Damm you John, you and your facts! They are getting in the way of the story as I want it to be told😀
I love this! Well done
Spot on John
I never see anyone mention how much CO2 is burnt to bring 1L of fuel to a tank. Shipping tankers of oil building platforms or fracking, loading it at docks to a truck and driving it to a station has a CO2 cost doesn’t it? Even the lights powered on at the station and the generators on the oil platforms burn fuel right? Am I wrong about this being a cost for fuel? If we’re talking production of lithium we need to include production of diesel figures too right?
it works out to be close to the same as you use all the same processes to get the lithium of out of the ground and to the customer. the thing is, you cant rely on battery power to dig up what you need to make more batteries because it is too expensive so building batteries takes the use of more diesel to do so. its a s#!t show
Valid questions all. Also needed to be added to the conversation is the cost , actual dollar terms and emission terms, of exploration , extraction , production and transportation of the materials that make up the battery packs.
There is also the ethical questions that have been raised over the exploration , extraction and manufacturing of toxic materials such as cobalt. But there’s a few TH-cam videos about that as well.
@@supfpv No it doesn't. A big EV uses about 10kg of lithium in its lifetime, which is near 100% recoverable. Any ICE vehicle will get through 10,000kg of fuel in its lifetime, none of which is recoverable.
If it took anything like as much energy to produce 1kg of lithium as 1000kg of fuel a kg of lithium wouldn't cost 30 bucks.
@@supfpv That energy for extracting and refining lithium was already accounted for, but as far as I can see the energy to refine diesel was not. Best estimates suggest that you should add 25% to the carbon footprint of diesel.
Exactly, and decades of wars fought to secure access to oil is never mentioned by those that are all of a sudden concerned about the plight of children in cobalt mines
Interesting and informative John. I'd be interested in knowing what the expected service life was for EV batteries, and whether they need to be replaced during the life of the vehicle.
Yes, it's important to consider how many times there will need to be that EV deficit during the life of the V6 diesel. Of course, that's treating the two examples equally in terms of their usage as aspirational vehicles.
But, there is also the fact that the diesel is good at something the EV definitelty is not, and that is towing. And, of course the diesel is far more convenient, unless you have a wall box and only travel within the range of the battery.
Clearly, we need a balanced approach. We need affordable and efficient city EVs for commuting into inner cities, but we still need ICE vehicles for most other tasks.
And we don't need to ban the V12 supercars that average less than a couple of thousand kms a year owned by a tiny percentage of drivers, and replace them with even more ridiculously powerful sterile transportation appliances that pre-load the atmosphere with "35,000" kms worth of CO2 emissions during their production.
In Tesla's at least they're warranted for 8 years, or 160000 kilometres. There's no replacement service schedule for them, so one could assume they're expected to last the life of the vehicle with some minor loss in range. More than 30% loss in capacity is what I've heard is the line for warranty replacement but that's not confirmed so take that with a grain of salt.
the prius batteries life was approximately 10 years, but they are not considered a true EV as they are combined drive and I'm sure they were MH batteries, correct me if im wrong.
Awesome video, sir!
Great brief yet again, top shelft facts!! Thanks John...P.S. where can I get the T-shirt !!
Hi John, at around the 19 min point I think you accidentally flipped the tCO2e/MWh calc for Aust. This should land closer to the 0.75 tCO2e/MWh for Aus. You can cross check this against the National Greenhouse Accounts or NGER (Measurement) determination. Sincerely - one of them academics.
Apologies for typos- fat fumbs on fone.
Which brings the EV down to about 130g/km, not 240g/km. So the EV will break even around 75,000km... assuming the grid average. A figure which only improves as time goes on and get grid gets more green. Personally I'm charging 90% of my EV with solar. Its a no brainer from my side.
Are transport and refining costs built into the fossil fuels co2 numbers... and are the similar numbers built into the grid generation numbers?
@@mikeckwan except that EV efficiency according to Volvo for their xc40 is 241Wh/km.
770g/kWh * 0.241kWh/km = 186g/km
So no much better than diesel.
And the EV takes 11 tonnes extra co2 to produce. Xc40 vs xc40
Nb. Victoria is about 900-1000g/kWh
Been thinking that the numbers were flipped also.
@@ChrisWells1 I have an XC40, and my average over 3,771km is 178Wh/km. Motorway driving is generally worse. Its a good thing i'm stuck in traffic most of the time, when the diesel would use more fuel... its all swings and roundabouts.
Your best analysis yet. Thank you for decoupling the cliches and political jargon to give us the well known but seldom discussed facts about the chemistry of oxidation, energy transfer, and material sciences. To de-industrialize, or not to de-industrialize, that is the question greens must answer to meet their net-zero goals.
Hi
About diesel vs ev
Do not forget that how do you get the petrol to the pump. A lot of energy is used to get the oil out of de ground and processed into petrol /diesel and transported to the final destination. To take the oil out of the ground there could be 19 million ev drive on that.
I wonder what the CO2 burden of the panels and wind farms add, and also the disposal of the batteries?
Thank you for your video John. It seems a lot of your calculations are based on the CO2 produced by combusting petroleum in a ute vs to the CO2 produced for electricity to be used in an EV. Are you calculations any different if you factor in the electricity that is used to refine the petroleum for the ute ? Thanks
Not only refinement - how about the whole end to end transportation of petroleum products? Guess it wouldn't look so favourable then? But as John always says 'Facts, you don't have to like them dude...' - but I guess you completely ignore some facts to support an argument, right?
I spotted the same flaw in his theory, let's see if there is a follow up.
@@sqam0 In my initial searches I could not find anything except for how much CO2 is created from burning gasoline.
I would think it would be a very difficult task to compute as the pumping (sometimes, some wells have enough gas pressure that they don't need pumping) out of the ground is sometimes done by using the gas from the well, sometimes from electricity and sometimes from diesel fuel. Then there is the question of transportation. Some wells are directly connected to pipe lines and others are trucked to a collection point where the oil is then transported by rail, pipe line or ship. Once it gets to the refinery I think that the refinery just uses electricity. It is possible that John could not come up with solid figures for that but he should have at least mentioned it.
@@johncooper4637 - I don't disagree that it would be an arduous task to come up with an accurate figure to calculate the well to wheel CO2 emissions. However, he is happy to make those same loose assumptions about CO2 debt of a battery on one old report.
Talking about cherry picking data - using old 2019 NEM generation data is just disingenuous. 2019 Renew vs Fossil was something like 22.7%/77.3% compared to 2022 35%/65% (or almost 24,000 GWh less fossil generation) a so a massive difference in just a few short years and will continue to improve. It’s not like a newer AER report with updated values wasn’t available, it’s just the old data favours his argument.
You may be right, but 75% of the batteries are also made by one of biggest carbon polluters in the world China.. who then uses masses amounts of carbon to dig up the rare earth metals which there is not endless mountains of., and it goes on and on, China, Russia will continue to produce mass war machinery using there goal and gas power and can never afford to stop completely, the Asian countries industry continue to grow while the west is slowly dying, I do believe we need to reduce carbon emissions but it seems only the west will try. I also think at the rate of plastics in our oceans and fresh water supply will kill the planet and us first, there are billions if not trillions of dollars to be made for the elite you won’t control greed. The obvious answer is nuclear power at this time.
I agree with this report and it's valid for Australia. But here in Canada our grid in the most populous provinces of Ontario and Quebec is essentially zero emissions (95% zero emissions and 100% respectively) so in our market the EV is absolutely the better carbon choice because the CO2 of electricity here is measured in grams per kWh, not KG. The break even is about two years worth of driving on our grid.
Love your work, really, I do. You asked to be repudiated here. Based on the facts presented, that is a hard to do, given the information provided. So good for you. One of the facts that has never been presented in all of debate about CAGW, is the answer to the question, “What is the optimum level of atmospheric Carbon dioxide?” That we as humans are changing atmospheric CO2 levels is beyond doubt, but we might be heading into a prolific plant growth phase.
Have you included the CO2 emitted by the diesel production and shipping to the bowser?
Exploration, discovery, development, extraction, shipping to refinery, refining, shipping to bulk buyer, transporting to servos.... there's a lot going on to get that stuff into a car....
Yeah he has , that’s represented by the retail cost of the fuel , and also in his other videos he makes the case that the EV is ideal in heavily built up areas where one of the benefits manifests in emission reduction in that particular area. But the cost is the emissions are just shifted to where the battery pack is made, China, and where the electricity is generated , mostly heavily rural parts of Australia where the coal power stations are.
@@bri200490 I’m not sure how the price of fuel determines the carbon footprint of getting it into your tank, he broke down the CO2 contribution from electricity production to the EV. Where in the video did he cover the CO2 attributed to the Ford Ranger from fuel production, delivery etc.? The CO2 to provide the steel to build the car was detailed but I missed the rundown on contribution of supplying fuel.
Agree with you
@@zwieseler he spoke about the emissions quoted from Ford , but not about the C02 that’s is generated from the extraction , transportation, refining etc of the diesel . But I don’t believe that he referred to the same figures for cobalt , lithium etc . The point to remember I think is that the EV is most assuredly NOT a Zero Emissions vehicle. It just does not emit as it’s being driven .
Todays video expands on that to the extent that for some countries like Oz it’s probably better to use more modern ICE vehicles , and the extra money that one pays to get an EV , use that to get rooftop solar and try to significantly reduce the household reliance on the national power grid.
Then , in my own opinion , upgrading every residence with double or triple glazing with thermal breaks , using excellent insulation etc , and green building practices as appropriate. That investment would bring better dividends re emissions than EVs .
I really, really appreciate you making this vid with the best possible information available to the public. A completely reasonable thought experiment. I tried to make this exact defense of my own 23yr old Ranger in r/Sustainability only to be banned.. For pointing out that what I already have is immediately greener and the greenest thing /I/ can possibly do #1 because of the carbon debt and why would I throw away a perfectly serviceable mini truck still getting 25+mpg that still passes strict emissions in my area, in favor of buying a brand new EV which starts the manufacturing energy & pollution/emission debt clock all over again right out of the gate, at a financially suicidal cost I couldn't afford anyway?? I would have to own that EV for far longer than the battery pack itself would even last, just to break even, and that's a lot messier than driving what I've already got that paid of its debt over a decade ago; As long as it continues to function as built for the little driving I actually do. They wouldn't even hear it. It was straight to rudeness, me standing up for it with basic facts, and then an unceremonious ban. I lose my patience when then supposed environmentalists are so misguided that they're just exacerbating a problem they think they're fixing.
His calculation, data and conclusions are absolutely incorrect.
@@alexanderbrown8308 got the proof handy for such a bold claim?
@@MacPoop well for starters. He didn’t subtract the carbon footprint of the massive Engine Block and Transmission. Both of which require ALOT of steel to be smelted, cast and machined down. Rather he just added the impact of an EV battery to the impact of a Diesel car. So now we’re double dipping.
@@MacPoop second he got the wrong numbers from the clean energy regulators website and ultimate did the maths wrong. He ended up using kWh/kg of CO2 and not kg of CO2/ kWh.
Which is what he confessed to doing on his next video. So he himself admitted he was wrong and that EV’s were substantially cleaner than diesel.
@@MacPoop need any more proof?
So true. And the only people that understand the facts are us. Watchers of this show
There are some things you've overlooked:
1. The Lifecycle. A EV has a rather limited lifespan on it's Battery, meaning it's reasonable to expect a new Battery to be needed within 10-15 years of normal use. If we assume 30 years as a reasonable life expectancy for a ICE car (mind you, that's currently something from 1993, where cars like the E30, W124 etc. are massively going up in price as classics), then it's at least a additional battery change halfway trough... but realistically, people would scrap the whole car and buy new as the battery and the installation (if even offered/available) would likely exceed the value of a 15 year old car.
2. While it's not possible to eliminate co² from combustion of carbon based fuels, it's possible to filter/capture it as well as the usage of plant based fuels. In other words, you could run a co² neutral or negative ICE. That said, some of the patents are held by companies which make more money off of EVs.
3. The concept of Hydrogen ICE has been largely ignored in recent years (except Toyota, they still work on it AFAIK, BMW has some tests running as well, but under wraps "in case EV fails"), but essentially they would be EVs not relying on Batteries and able to make use of a "renewable" grid which could dump excess power into hydrogen production.
so you have added the extra CO2 for the battery, thats fair, but what about the CO2 used to produce the engine, transmission, fuel tank radiator and all associated parts of the ICE car, do they magically appear out of thin air?
I agree that if you run your EV off pure coal you really aren't achieving a lot,but it does get the pollution away from the people in the cities!
Some of Australia doesn't have any Dinosaur power at all (Tasmania) i wonder how fast the payback is for driving an EV there???
1 tonne of steel for the ice was incorporated in the calculation.
Hmmm more and more auto parts are made from plastic! Including the parts on most EVs plastic is made from OIL! Also China has No environmental standards COAL is the main power Source!!!!
You forgot to mention one of the worlds worst atrocities known to man that never gets spoken about is the cobalt mining in Congo. It kills thousands and thousands of people each year including kids and babies. makes me sick the amount of cobalt required for each EV how many people died making a single battery?
Or your phone…
@@essentialmix1606 yep, but dont compare the amount of cobalt required for an EV compared to an IPhone. Not in the same league mate
It's not EVs that are the issue there, it's the corrupt governments & lack of regulations that are the issue.
Anyway many EVs have LFP batteries, which have less cobalt than your phone.
@@guringai common mate all evs are packed full of cobalt a shit mod more than a iPhone. I’m just bringing it to the attention of people that don’t know where cobalt is from and what it does to people that mine it.
@@Chris-sf2cp not to mention when it burns, just ask the 2 firefighters from Melbourne who are permanently disabled (never to work again) from fighting an EV vehicle fire. John has a video that mentions these guys. But no I claim superiority when I order my soy latte in the morning. Stop it.
Great post John. The masses out there are completely ignorant of these basic facts on Co2 Emmissions . .
Speaking of carbon-dioxide debt, refining silica into solar-panel grade silicon also requires substantial coal supplies. Roughly half-again by mass carbon-dioxide is emitted compared to the mass of silicon resulting. This becomes a matter of interest when the totality of solar panels anticipated is to be considered. I understand that there are three stages of refinement, all of which require power for the electric arc furnaces. From whence does that power come? As China is the major supplier of solar panels, then it is coal so the carbon-dioxide load increases yet again. Grid-scale solar therefore also comes with a solid carbon-dioxide debt even before it charges up the EVs.
Thanks John ,really well written and excluded…. The next question is what are we gonna do for the old batteries when they get to the use by date ?? That should be added into the equation as well. Keep up the good work mate. Cheers Dave.
And where are they going to find the raw materials to replace them?
@@rjones6219 Good Question !
@@rjones6219 battery is recyclable (up to 95% using the best tech) while diesel will be continousely mined..
Great article, you have stated the total "well to wheel" CO2 to power the EV SUV per km. What about looking the total CO2 "well to wheel" to power the diesel ute per km, starting with the extraction of crude oil, through to refining, transport etc. Should make for interesting more accurate comparison.
How much CO2 is emitted in the extraction, processing and shipment of coal from the mines to power stations?
What is the terminal enviromental and human health damage caused by heavy metals pollution leaking from coal ash impoundemts?
..........
John with the truth bombs - love it!
The whole discussion around EVs and more broadly, sustainability, has been completely derailed by culture warriors on the extreme ends of the debate, fuelled by vested interest talking points. A nuance and thought free zone.
What are the alternatives to move away from fossil fuels? Genuine question.
There are also electricity transfer losses in the grid, due to resistance in the lines. From the power plant to your EV's main battery, you'll be lucky to retain 60% of the power that was generated by the plant.
Not to disagree just a question, how much Co2 does it take to make 1l of fuel and was that included in the V6 Wildtrack(Id love one deeply...)Co2 figures?
This is stupid......
Have you also asked yourself how much CO2 is emitted in the extraction, processing and shipment of coal from the mines to power stations?
OR what is the terminal enviromental and human health damage caused by heavy metals pollution leaking from coal ash impoundemts?
I stand ready to remind you of many other relevant questions for proper comparison...........
@Joseph Halwagy comparing tail pipe CO2 emissions of the Ranger with an EVs electricity use CO2 is not a fair comparison though!
Simply put - its complicated to include down stream CO2 produced, but I think vital if we want to actually see the facts. Scientists spend years researching this, writing papers about 'well to wheel' CO2.
Divorced five times John? Bloody hell, is that not the definition of insanity? Repeating the same action over and over. Expecting a different outcome? Haha awesome video mate bravo. Love it when someone isn't beholden to a corporation.
Men love women. The end.
@@bohrora2293 no wrong I've been single 14 years...best most productive less stressful time of my life. No wife awesome life...
@@brettleonard8602 you are not wrong either sir! Happy wife happy life…no wife better life!
John hasn't been remarried to the same "wife", I assume. So it is okay.
@@GuitarsRockForever pretty sure you missed the point mate... it's a female thing.
you are a great bloke
Not promoting EV but i will say on a state level Tasmania is near 100% and if it wasn't for the greens we would be 100% plus exporting a heap mainly due to a heap of hydro
Also when factoring in CO2 from charging for the most part you can write off solars reduction since most charging is done after work / overnight when there isn't any solar to be had
@Anthill Inside when i say if it wasn't for green's i mean the major hydro project that was planned for the west coast that they stonewalled which would have been another 180MW a major so yes really
Give Chris Bowen a copy of this video please….
Great idea but I don’t think and I think you’d agree blackout Bowen would be to brain damaged and to stupid to understand the science.
Just a quick one and sorry if I missed this but did you allow for the saving of not manufacturing the ICE engine ?
Not necessary, because the manufacture of the electric motors balances out the ICE manufacturing
@@gavinmcmahon915 cheers. Proud V6 diesel owner here by the way
@@gavinmcmahon915 motors a third of the size and no transmission!
Thanks John well put, replacing all the current ice cars with Ev , will be an insane amount of energy in production alone, I'll keep my diesal and just use it as little and as wisely as possible,, good advice to go solar for house needs , people can make changes that save them money long term,and do their bit, without buying a shitbox throw away car battery on wheels
Brilliant.
Great stuff! Having recently discovered your channel I am enjoying the informative and entertaining vids. Is there a "green" counter-argument available from looking at the level of co2 produced in refining the fuel and getting it to the pump to compare with the electricity production element you rely on? Don't get me wrong...I like your reasoning but before I argue the case for my own vehicle I thought I would check if there is a potential weak link. I have just bought a new Toyota Fortuner (alleged 7.6l/100km and 201g co2 ) and I am copping a lot of moral flak from my EV heavy family. In NZ our electricity production co2 stat is 0.371 kgs CO2e per kWh. It is too long ago since I did maths so I do not feel equipped to defeat the complaining but well meaning Tesler model 3 and Atto3 people.... Can you give me a Co2 comp for the Model 3 that my wife is about to buy? They are all science buffs too. Cheers Timmo diesel NZ
Yes I agree. counting the embodied Co2 for the electricity but not for the diesel seems like not an even comparison. It's an interesting discussion, how far back do you go? Where do you stop?
@@JackButlerVideos There's a link in John's video description for the data on the emissions from the electricity production. I cannot tell if it accounts for the mining of coal. I don't think it does. Maybe just the emissions from generating the power (burning coal). John said it includes electricity generated from renewables as well. As you said it would be good for more comparisons on the mining, refining, transporting etc of both fuel sources. The rabbit hole can get very deep - digging a hole in the first place releases trapped carbon into the air. Hopeful we can find solutions for each part of the puzzle.
" I am copping a lot of moral flak from my EV heavy family"
Just get them to watch this on TH-cam: "Top Facts on Climate Controversy, Fully Explained - See for Yourself!"
What about all the trees you're throwing in the bin 😂
It's good to see you highlighting the problems with testicular cancer... It should be mentioned that testicular cancer is significantly on the rise within women's sports as well 😢
Awesome 👍🏼👍🏼
What seems to be not appreciated by many EV buyers is that when the EV is 10 years old and the battery might need to be changed, the cost of changing the battery is greater than the price of the rest of the car. However, this is not the only problem.
By the time the EV is 10 years old, the software and electronics would also be massively surpassed by not only new electronics but by new software and standards.
This means that the car on which CO2 emission has already been expended is now effectively wasted although the EV itself might be good for another 200,000 km. If the EV is recycled then the already expended CO2 baggage is wasted and extra CO2 is required to recycle the EV not to mention the costs.
On the financial side, this means that if one buys a 70K AUD EV, the depreciation expense is that over 10 years - essentially.
and your 'Upfront' spend is locked in. So there is an opportunity cost plus the extra interest on the finance. I run a 20 year old Honda for $10 a week plus fuel versus $120 a week for an EV. The extra $110 a week 'You' pay covers my monthly petrol bill.
My 20 year old Corolla also has out of date software and technology and safety.
Admittedly I didn’t need to change a massive battery but I did need to: 1 x battery, 1 x fuel pump assembly, 2 x ignition coils 4 x spark plugs, 1 x rocker cover gasket, various brake and suspension components etc.
It was cheap but it’s cheap for a reason as will be a 20 year old ev.
@@grahamcampbell9261 Corrrect.
I would suggest that that the modern EV battery will outlive the life of the car it is installed in and will NEVER need to be replaced. In fact at the end of the car's life the battery will still be useable in a stationary battery for grid storage or similar. Battery replacement after 10 years is an old myth that keeps being recycled by the anti EV crowd.
@@rodsmyth Redeployment of the battery for home use is a possibility but this was not the point I was making. The body of an EV will easily outlive the useful life of the battery for EV use. Whether the battery will last longer is not the issue but the fact that car is useless because a replacement battery would cost more than what a 10 year-old EV body is worth. That's the real issue - the body is wasted prematurely and the CO2 baggage remains underutilised.
Let's see how what lifecycles actually occur with Lithium-ion batteries for EV use.
You had me hooked in the first thirty seconds.
John i think you’d be surprised at how much the grid has changed in the last 3 years. There has been a fairly dramatic shift in electricity generation already. As more renewables comes online plus storage solutions like snowy hydro, charging an EV purely on grid is going to quickly become cleaner than an equivalent ICE vehicle.
Maybe I missed it but your discussion points didnt raise where someone is keeping their BEV topped up using rooftop PV.
He definitely mentioned it, he just said that while possible at the individual level, at the moment, this kind of "green" charging doesn't scale up.
I wonder what his point, or rather his proposal is. Is he saying that because of the current situation, we should keep on driving diesel cars (and utes) and not invest in green energy generation and battery technology? Obviously if nobody is buying EVs today, nothing will happen, and in 10 years time, the situation will still be the same. So while his math is most probably correct (I trust him on that, I didn't look up the numbers), it seems a little shortsighted.
@@KurterinoVD The crux of the video is essentially centred around; The most prominent & publicised proposed "Solution" to reducing emissions, that being buying EV's, realistically solves nothing and is is being backed/pushed by companies with significantvested interests in doing so.
We would be better off using what vechile we currently have or even buying a cheaper new ICE vehicle & spending the $15k difference on rooftop solar with battery storage. As doing so will more significantly decrease emissions than buying an EV.
This option also provides a means of ensuring that charging an EV, when you do eventuality buy one, your charging remains as emissionless as possible.
Between the planned National Grid upgrade and the recent announcement of tightening efficiency & emissions standards for Australian vehicle imports, I would say the Federal Government is attempting to set the market conditions for such a positive shift to occur.
Which is how a Government ought to function, setting market indicators and supporting it with the relevant infrastructure.
@@KurterinoVD The way I think about JC's point or proposal is this: if you can't be sure that the proposed solution actually fixes the problem, it may not be wise to spend billions and billions of public and private money on said solution. You may be better off spending the money elsewhere, where it does actually have more impact.
You could be spending the money on renewable energy generation, the grid and use of renewables in industry for example. If the basics are more or less sorted, there will be plenty of time to cash the decarbonisation benefits by switching to BEVs (which then will be produced at a smaller carbon deficit and actually have lower effective CO2 emissions than ICE vehicles).
Every EV sold now, will not contribute (much) to lower carbon emissions. Every kWh produced by solar, wind or hydro does help reduce CO2 emissions right now.
@@hvh377 @Soul Survivor Fair enough, but the way I see it, it's a bit like the chicken-or-egg question (which was first): Do you wanna wait until the grid has been upgraded and the battery technology is better, or are these things gonna get advanced by the customers who buy BEVs?
@@KurterinoVD I'm not sure, but it might be better to spend our limited resources to speed up the transition at the supply side (faster renewable generation) than at the demand side (EVs instead of ICE) as long as the supply is nowhere near matching demand yet. No need to extend demand until that point is reached.
The currently sold generation of EVs will have had no significant contribution to CO2 emission reduction by the time they are disposed of, if the transition to renewable supply doesn't speed up significantly.
It's not really a chicken and egg situation the way I see it: the grid improvements are not dependent on the technology development for EVs.
1. I don't think (lithium ion) batteries are _the_ central technology to make the grid greener. It's at best one of the many, but it may turn out to play a relatively small part in stabilising the grid. Only local matching of supply and demand perhaps.
2. The optimisation of battery tech for vehicles is not efficient for stationary applications. For vehicles, low weight and small volume are primary objectives with price only a secondary target. For stationary applications, price is everything. Weight and volume are unimportant.
Another example is Tesla's 4680 cell, which is optimised to be part of a load bearing structure. Ideal for EV applications. A total waste of efficiency for stationary applications.
Opennem is useful to see how the grid is changing and how it varies by state, John.
Hey John .. what about the exploration, extraction, transport and distribution of fuel? Would is the extraction of coal better ? Transport is pretty efficient for electricity too.
What about the exploration and transportation, of lithium. Its 200-250 ton of raw lithium to make a one ton battery. And all that's done with fossil fuel
Now look up cobalt mining mate.. toxic as hell and uses child labour. Lithium batteries cost 5x manufacturing cost to recycle.. obviously they're a throw away item .. wakey wakey it's a con job. 25% of Elons lithium comes from a mine on Aboriginal land. Do you think those people are remunerated properly for that?? No
@@essentialmix1606 if you throw out your children's devices first. You know the ones telling you your killing their future.🤦.. I also bought mine second hand.
@@johnt7696 it’s a comparison of the ongoing EROI equation. (Energy invested vs yield)
Renewable electricity and electric cars are the future based simply on distribution.
Once the grid is up for it there is no further comparable cost for distribution whereas fossil fuels require a massive continuous investment of energy/resources simply to distribute fuel to the end users.
With renewable are you pointing towards Solar panels, inverters, wind turbines?
Solar panels normal life is 15 to 20years so replacing them on large scale every 20years hmmmm.
Can these be recycled, not yet in Aust?
Wind turbines, life expectancy 20years, they are recyclable but again no facility in Aust.
Why don’t we use nuclear power 50year cycle. A lot of them running in world are recyclable (end of life) equipment and there is new types of nuclear energy all green once operational without environmental impacts during normal running.
Taking to account the fact diesel vehicle CAN be driven for 10+ years holding the parametres, but current EV bateries wont last that long - replacing it will introduce more "carbon debt".
Not to mention the need to upgrade current electric grid to keep up with EV charging on national scale.
Also, imagine heavy industrial vehicles being electric...
Even 25 years +
Great video, I’ve been trying to get through to people that these vehicles are not the solution only to be laughed at and dismissed. I can now refer them to a video like this. The problem is though, those same people don’t want the facts, they believe that their personal beliefs are the facts.
The path to decarbonization doesn’t start with ev cars, it starts with nuclear power plants. Then 50-100 years down the road you start to convert road transportation to ev. Today, with fossil fuel power plants, it takes less of that to burn it one time in a modern ic engine than in a power plant hundreds of km away, then grid it, transform and rectify it many times to charge your ev car battery.
Any LPG cars in your area ? no, why because there too expensive to run
LPG aren't expensive to run, they are actually cheaper since LPG is cheaper than both diesel and petrol
@@carholic-sz3qv not really
@@margarita8442 ah yes really family has run them for decades. Unfortunately they are dissapearing in Sydney as taxis are changing to hybrid, the demand for LPG has evaporated.
there gone
@@margarita8442 lithium batteries cost 5x manufacturing cost to recycle.. NOT green and will go to landfill.. NOT good for the environment at all. Actually far worse than not having them.
I just wanna know how you have a house at all after being divorced 5 times? I’m up to 3 and have zip!😂
Would also be interested in knowing the total carbon footprint for building and maintaining each of the “plant saving” greenwashed wind turbines that go toward charging the big EV Shitter…
Cheers John, loving the facts👍🏻
He lives in the shed brah!
I would like to know that as well and then he can do one in regard to the fields of solar panels that destroy the land they are on
Apologies if I've missed it, but would you be happy to share a link to your calculations? This isn't to doubt it, but I'm just interested in learning more.
I come from the days of early internet. We have a similar issue in the Internet/World Wide Web infrastructure that began in the late 90s. Data servers. Hundreds of hectares/acres of mainframe servers sucking huge amounts of coal-fired electricity from the grid.
People shop online to save fuel etc, and get a good deal. The problem is, those data farms chew tons and tons of coal to remain operational. And ALL of us who use a search engine, or Facebook, or any other social media site, off-site backup services, and other online services, contribute to untold pollution.
Close but no cigar. I think you forgot to include cost carbon used in fuels supply.
The same fuel supply most of the electricity for the ev comes from. What about the co2 it took to make and install the solar and wind.
Just put my EV in for a service, got a petrol courtesy car, can't wait to get the EV back. Don't care about emissions just better performance. Also can't see the attraction of utes whatever the fuel type.
Very interesting. I have been asking on other forums about how much CO2 is created in mining, refining and manufacturing EV batteries. Then there is China which is making new coal mines as we speak so that they can recharge all their EVs. One other thing of interest is how much pollution is produced when one of the EVs catches on fire, which is much in the news lately from the RORO ship fire in the North Sea.
Thank you for wearing an Apollo 13 t-shirt. A good friend of mine was part of the team that brought it back. His job was the heat shield which some thought should be jettisoned.
There's a big 'element' missing from these calculations, ICE cars have catalytic converters which contain the incredibly rare elements platinum and palladium. You need to factor that in because an enormous amount of energy is required to mine, crush and extract these rare metals from the ores they're found in. The other issue is you've completely forgotten to include CO2 generated from fuel manufacturing, oil extraction, processing, shipping and road transportation. Once these are factored in EV's look considerably better on the CO2 emissions front. The real hurdle is now getting the manufacturing and energy grids closer to zero CO2 emissions so that manufacturing of EV's also produces as little CO2 as possible.
First! EV's and especially EV utes are a road to nowhere.
To me they are a cool tool, but I'm not going to be the tool that pretends to be "green" because a politicized lab coat pushed for it. It's just a new Bible, without a hint of saviour, only despair and suffering. And 90% of the globe eats it up like cookies. Please oh lord, tell me what unworthy scum we all are!
Your argument is flawed and based on our current electrical grid. The grid is becoming greener by the day, look at South Australia. We have 2 EV’s and travel approximately 75k kms per year charged 90% with solar power. In just over a year the vehicles have paid off their CO2 debt over combustion engines. Your calculations do not take into account the CO2 produced in mining/refining and delivering said fossil fuels to service stations which is a huge omission and basically eradicates any validity to your argument. Also what about additional CO2 in many more serviceable spare parts required to maintain an ICE vehicle etc etc. Battery density is increasing at a dramatic rate. I live rural, this is the first time in my life I have realised the smell of vehicle pollution when entering a city. EV’s may not be perfect, but they are a step forward. As the grid matures and people power themselves with solar etc the benefits of EV’s only get larger. I appreciate there are two sides of a story but every time I watch your videos it appears you only bag EV’s and offer not a single alternative.
John the 🦕 in survival mode!
When most of energy production is no longer pumping CO2 into the atmosphere, it makes sense to move to electric.
Right now we are starting the house by the roof.
"...incentivising colon gas..."
Never a truer word
Canberra - that's how they roll
A fool and his money would buy a used Tesla on the Carvana site.