I'm a bassist and most guitar videos are an unwatchable mess of endless show off solos. Yours is excellent. Tasteful playing designed to illustrate your point, and really informative. Thank you.
I was going nuts trying to figure out what I was doing wrong because I knew you could split the plethora to have effects go both before and after the preamp. Your video helped so much and I feel like a dummy now that I got it hooked up right, it makes perfect sense.
Never before have I had someone explain this in such an easy and entertaining way! Absolutely love your videos! Grade A+ content! This video in particular helped me so much!
I subscribed a day or two ago, after watching a couple of your Plethora vids. As I watch more of your channel, I realize I enrolled in a university! This is amazing content! And oh, by the way, you can really play a guitar brilliantly! Thanks man!!
Thank you *so much* for your work, your pedagogy and your time. I am considering purchasing a plethora X5, to go with my Hologram, Microcosm and pretend I'm Fripp/Eno ;-). I have spent a lot of time looking at a lot of videos on the X5. I appreciate all of them, and their creators' goodwill, but I must say yours are the most informative. I am very grateful. Good Karma to you, brother 👍.
What a superb video on a subject I bet many guitarists are unaware. What they'll do - particularly with multi effects units in the amp loop - is to dampen down/adjust each fx preset to suit the amp setup/channel, unaware that their effects here are being distorted because of the type of power amp section. Quite simply, they get used to/accept the sound, and while it might be creative, it is still a compromise. More importantly, I wonder if there is a reference web site that lets folk know if an amp's FX loop is prone to power amp distortion?
Excellent video! You answered all my questions about the 4 cable method and specifically about the Plethora and the Katana fx loop. Definitely more interested in the Plethora X5 now. Thanks!
That's how you see it's a great Les Paul style guitar, the 3rd string doesn't want to tune for love nor money. 😉 The Ukulele was pretty decent, though!
Thanks for this awesome video. I have a question for you, can I use my Tonex pedal with Plethora in this way? I wonder if the 4 cable method works with tonex - plethora?
Another great video. There is something about your delivery that is very endearing and educational. Keep it up👍😎 I’ve got a Plethora x5 on the way and will certainly be using the 4 CM with my Marshall JVM Satch and MB Fillmore 50 heads.
Hi great explication of 4 method cable! can I ask you for advice? I want to plug my volume pedal into my head's send return to control my head's preamp saturation by only increasing or decreasing the saturation volume of my preamp and since I have a TC Electronic Plethora X5 I want to know if the connection I would like to make is which below is correct: From IN of volume pedal in the amp send ; Guitar plug it into the IN of the Plethora X5 Connect the Plethora X5 SEND to the Amp's Input ; Connect the output of the volume pedal to the return of the Plethora X5 ; Connect the Plethora X5 OUT to the Amp Return ! Unfortunately I'm away from home for a while for job applications and I can't try it directly and since it's an idea that has flashed through my head these days I would kindly like to know if the link I described to you above is correct! I don't want to take away your time, you have your commitments and therefore answer me whenever you want! Congratulations for this amazing videos! A hug!🙏🎶🎸 Giorgio
My apologies Giorgio, I've only just seen this... TH-cam doesn't always notify me of all comments. 🤦🏻♂️ Have you managed to figure it out, or do you still need help with this?
You made an outstanding video and love how you explained everything. Unfortunately, your video lost a sale for TC due to the X5's limitations. I subscribed and look forward to future videos.😎
Excellent video and thanks :) I'm a new Plethora owner. I've previously been running mostly TCE time based stomps in the loop of my Mesa Boogie Mark V 25 and a Fryette Power Station 2 for attenuation. I use the Mesa amp loop, not the PS2 loop. With the Plethora I've initially run it all up front and not put anything into the loop, so far. I've noticed a significant reduction in clarity in the Flashback delays, chorus and reverb, plus the operational changes you showed in your video, when all the effects are placed up front. This has re-inforced my opinion that all time based effects sound better, clearer in a good series loop. The Plethoria time based effects sound and function better in the loop imo and, if Plethora owners have amps with a loop, they should be using 4-cable method to get full potential from the Plethora. However,..........
Unfortunately PX5 loop is mono, so we loose the opportunity of playing on 2 channels with Delay or Reverb. But I agree their sound is better in amp loop. Ideally a reverb could play after the amp, may be in the cabinet, just as are doing some attenuation boxes as Two Notes Torpedo's. may be reverbs pedals (that I know) are all imperfect.
It's not that the reverb pedals are imperfect - it's just the nature of the beast. When you run any type of compression (in this case, tube amp sag) after a reverb / delay, all the low level signal gets brought up and mixes up with the direct signal from the guitar; if that compression is frequency dependent and reaches the point of distortion (overdriven tubes), then all bets are off - you lose clarity, tails and repeats last a lot longer, etc... which is why if you want that clarity back, you need to move those effects to a place in the signal chain where they can live without being compressed / distorted. 🙂 I'll do a follow up video on this...
@@ChristianSurieux yeah but I'm using the Mark V series loop and don't play in stereo so it's no issue for me. I also mic my amps and have no use for a Torpedo Captive X or any IR's. I try to avoid a-d-a conversion wherever possible :)
Thank you for your video. This was excellent...very well done! At the end of your video, you touched on adding the Boss WAZA TAE after the power amp. I have a JCM800, Marshall 4x12 cabinet, the Plethora X5 and the Boss TAE. Is it possible to explain in more detail how to connect the TAE into the fx loop. I was confused as to how to accomplish this. Thanks so much and great job!
Thank you. Would the Plethora X5 time-based effects get the purest sound by going in between the Reactive Load and IR (or after the IR before Class D amp)? I have a Dr Z amp and am debating using a Suhr Reactive Load IR to help with the time-based effects distortion at the phase invertor (caused when using the Plethora X5 within the amp's effects loop (as you addressed in the video)). Great information. Thank you again.
Thank you so much for this and all of the other plethora X5 videos!! Easily the most informative set of videos. Could you expand or extend this discussion into a stereo rig? I believe that's a 7 cable method but I'm not exactly clear on how thats set up. Ideally I'd like to run my dirt front of amps and then the plethora signal through the effects loops. That may require a y-splitter at the end of the dirt chain... I'll be experimenting with the next couple of days with either running everything through the front of the plethora or through its effects send but I thought this third option might be worth a try as well.
I had originally planned on doing a follow-up to this video, but had to put it on hold for while. I'll bump it up the list again. How did your experiments go?
@@PedalPlatform thank you! Looking forward to your thoughts and insight on this ...Both my amps have an effects loop, so I'm assuming I can use a y splitter to run all of the dirt in front of the amps , the Sends from the amps into the plethora inputs and the plethora outputs into the returns of the amps. .. this would be logical assuming the levels are compatible. But I'm welcome to other ideas! Haven't tried this yet but I shall. Currently running all the dirt through the plethora effects Loop, which sounds better than running it directly in front of the plethora. Set up the effects Loop to be first in the plethora chain, with the first plethora effect being a noise gate. Decent results with this so far but again always looking for interesting options!
Following your 4-cable method setup, I assume the stereo effects is forced into mono, unless I am using an amp pedal with stereo in/out. Is that correct?
Olá! Os teus vídeos são muito fixes! Gostava de saber se é possível navegar nos canais de clean/ovdr/dist do amplificador e como faze-lo. Se não fôr possível vou ter de andar a fazer sapateado. Além disso eu tenho necessidades de ter os canais do amp sem qq efeito. Obrigado
Thank you for the video. When setting the plethora up for 4cm, can you only use 3 effects like you did in the video? You had 2 slots taken up with the send and return icons… many thanks. Jonny
Sorry for the delay (no pun intended...)! You can absolutely use the 5 slots in 4cm, those icons are there only to show where the loop is in the Plethora's internal signal path.
Very nice. I suppose you removed the 'cabinet simulation' in PX5 ? This PX5 cab sim is still a subject of questionning in such an effect pedal ? When to use it ??? Any interest ? Without amp sim, it seems to be before the final amp effect ???
Thank you Christian! Yes, cabinet simulation was off in the PX5 because it doesn't sound good when you run it into something that will generate distortion after it - in this case, the effects loop of the Marshall - and I wanted to keep the rest of the signal chain as similar as possible, so I used cab sims in post production. As for when to use it - you always need it in any situation where you're not playing with your amp connected to a traditional guitar speaker cabinet. If your PX5 is the last element in the chain (before your PA / FRFR / audio interface), or if you only have a looper or time based effects after it, then you can absolutely use the built in cabinet simulation. I will make a video on cabinet simulation at some point in the future, hopefully that'll help clear things up!
Could I just connect the pedal’s fx loop to the maps effect loop? Like if I wanted to have the X5’s compressor in front of the amp, along with a few dirt pedals in front of the amp, but also use my amps distortion and all other effects in the loop, how would I set it up?
Hey! Thanks for the video. Is there a way to implement the 4-c method with the built in sentry? I just got an x5 and would like it to take over my, duh, effects in the loop but also my revv noise gate which i have it in 4-c and is literally amazing. Thanks!
Great video and tips, thanks a lot. Just one question, if i connect my plethora with the 4 cable method, how can i insert my overdrives and distorsion in front of the amp ?
Sir, thank you for a very detailed overview of the pedal, you have done the TC a favour by putting out a video manual, which they didn’t bother to put together. One thing confuses me, in the 4 cable method when you put fx loop (two jacks facing each other) you suggest that the order of pedals goes left to right (ie. Compressor before amp, reverb and delay after). In another video, I saw a guy using the FX loop slot, connecting his overdrive via the pedal effects loop, and this part I do understand how it works, but he suggests that the order is right to left (he moves effect loop slot to the left most place and says “it sits at the end”. This confused the life out of me. Can you help me understand it better?
Not exactly sure if that's the case, but newer versions of the Plethora firmware allow you to reverse the direction of the slots, to simulate discrete pedals in which the signal flows right to left. In this video I'm using one of the initial firmware versions, with signal flowing left to right (still the default, and also my personal preference). That might explain the difference. Thank you for the kind comments! 🙏🏻
@@PedalPlatform Thanks, I thought that would be the case. My logic was severely tested. Whilst it makes sense that order of the pedals, from 1 to five suggests the order in the chain, the way cables are plugged in may suggest otherwise. But if they made it possible to flip it around, all the better.
@@PedalPlatform I can confirm that I found a video with introduction of 1.3.6 firmware update where signal direction can be changed (The Bearded Guitarist). The more I think about it, right to left makes more sense, the cables follow that logic but also, every pedal I had has had input on the right, output on the left so flowing right to left. I guess it didn’t make sense for them for the numbers to be 5 4 3 2 1 😁
That is absolutely the video which I was searching in TH-cam. Thanks for all the good explanation. I've marshall origin20c too, and when I was searching for tc electronic pedals such as flashback, hall of fame, I found plethora and want to buy it instead of buying those pedals seperately. What is your suggestion? I've already drive pedals btw. Thanks now
I'm new in the electric guitar and pedals world, and I have a Plethora X5 and Boss Katana 50, which doesn't have a default FX loop. Is there a workaround or can I buy something to replicate what you did here?
quite an interesting video! I use 4CM with a PODGo and a Blackstar HT5R MKII. It works well in my opinion. However, I want to play with my band and may need a bigger rig to play live. I tried playing with the PODGo direct to FOH but was not a nice experience with the monitoring, but that is another story. I had considered the Marshall Origin 20H as in the video, but now I am concerned that I won't be able to do 4CM in a simple way, withouth expending another couple hundred Euros to make it work correctly. If this situation is with all Marshalls, is there any other alternative or recommendation? How does Slash get the clean Delay from his amps? Is using Analog Pedals any different? That is something that I would be willing to move to. Thanks for the help
Good video. I've been looking at the Origin 20 head for a while, but I've heard they can be a bit unreliable and difficult for a tech to work on - is this in line with your experience, have you had any problems with the amp? Re: serial vs. parallel FX loops, any pros to having the latter?
Thank you! My Origin 20 has been flawless so far, but I don't drag it around, and use it very sparingly, so I'm not the best candidate to tell you how sturdy or reliable it'll be if you plan on using it on the road :) As for parallel FX loops, there could be some pros such as finer control over FX mix, and you get to keep your original signal intact, but then you run into other complexities. As an example: - if you run serial delay + reverb on the fx loop: -- are your pedals analog dry through? --- if yes, do you want to keep the dry sound and mix that with the amp's internal direct path, or do you kill dry and go effect only? --- if not, you need to go effect only, otherwise you'll run into phasing issues; -- If you go effects only, where do you kill the dry sound? --- Kill it on the delay, and you'll only have reverb on the delay tails, not on the direct sound; --- Kill it on the reverb, and you don't get the direct impact of the delay repeats, you only get the reverb on the delay repeats; -- etc etc etc The way of fixing this is using a parallel effects mixer that will split your signal into the delay and reverb, then mix them back together before coming back into the amp, and you've added another layer of complexity into the system. And this is the "simplest" example... Is it worth it? Up to you to decide 😁
I came up with a “15 cable” method! Guitars into a Boss LS2, send A goin to ToneX One, from there, it goes back into LS2, Send B goes into ToneX Pedal, out from there it goes into X5, then effects loop send to LS2, then to a Tube screener, then to a wah, then back to the X5 loop effects return. The X5 stereo out goes to interface 2, which then goes to a UAD Apollo X twin via SPDIF. Well, that’s the plan anyways. Of course it’s not working though
Question pls: Should I put my OD pedal between the guitar and the amp input and the X5 in the effects loop (post pre-amp and prior to the power amp) for best effect?
"Best effect" is something only you can define, according to the sound you want to get out of your rig :) OD pedal in front and X5 in the loop certainly works! But give this a watch, I go over a whole bunch of different routings that might also interest you: th-cam.com/video/N0ukWiah5bU/w-d-xo.html
Hello, man! Always a pleasure to see your work! I have a question, maybe you can help me: is it possible to use the 4 cable method in order to insert an RX loop into the wet signal of the Flashback delay? I'm think of a delay in which the dry signal is listened as such, whereas the delay feedback is affected by the fx loop line. Thanks ! Take care !
Not that I can think of... but a way of doing that would be splitting the signal before the Flashback, putting it into kill dry mode (by flipping a dip switch inside the cover), put your effects after the flashback, then blend the dry signal (that didn't go through the flashback) and the processed signal back. You can easily achieve this with an EHX TriParallel Mixer (overkill, as you only really need one of the channels), GigRig Wetter Box, or any other parallel mixer pedal. Hope this helps!
Hi, how are you? Thanks for the content! I really appreciated it 🙌🏻 I would like to ask you a question. If I want to use 4 method cable, but add some drives and delays pedals, where is the right position in the chain? Best regards!
Hi Mauricio, thank you for the kind words 🙏🏻 With drive pedals, I would try in these two places: - Between guitar and multiFX; - Between multiFX and Amp in. Depending on the specific pedals involved, they might behave very differently, so try them and see what feels and sounds better to you. For the delays, it depends on how much you're driving your amp and how clean you want the delays to sound, but there's a couple of positions to try: - Between multiFX and Amp in (if you're getting distortion from the amp, the delays will also get distorted); - Between Amp FX loop send and multiFX loop return; - Between multiFX output and Amp FX loop return. Again, if you're driving your power amp hard, all of these will add some distortion to the delays, but there's no way around that unless you're using an attenuator and another way of amplifying your sound (4-ish cable method). Hope this helps!
@@PedalPlatform Wow! Of course this helps me a lot. I really appreciated your help. Thanks again for your videos and the time you taked for answer me 🤟🏻🤟🏻
@@PedalPlatform Great video and explanation. I'm new to the world of Multi-fx. Just bought the X5 and had the same question about drive pedals. My previous setup I had split, drive into front of amp, modulation into FX loop (Marshall 2525c). Is the plethora a true bypass? i.e. is there any difference if I put my block of drive pedals between the guitar and plethora or between the plethora and amp in?
The Plethora can be true bypass, but only when not using any effect (obviously 😆), cab sim, or the FX loop, and more importantly, it doesn't have analog dry through. So if you want to use the 4 cable method, it will not only buffer your guitar signal, but also run it through the A/D/A converters. That said - they are really good converters, and I have even used some fuzz pedals between the Plethora FX send and the Amp in without losing the touch sensitivity or volume pot clean up. Personally, if I'm using any variant of the 4 cable method, I prefer to have the Plethora first, and then the drive pedals straight into the amp input. But at the end of the day, you need to experiment with your specific guitar, pedals, and amp, to see what works better for you. 😄
My X5 is on the way. Was planning on using it in fx loop exclusively with my compressor and ODs in front of amp. But, don't want that "mushiness" of the x5 effects. I know you say the Marshall's have that issue. But you also say the "high gain monsters" keep the loop clean. I will be using a Marshall JVM 410. Any thoughts on hookup?
If you keep the power amp running relatively clean you should be fine. I don't have direct experience with the JVM, but as far as I know, it's a different beast to the "old school" Marshalls, that need to be cooking their tubes to sound good. Give it a try with the X5 in the loop and see if it works for you.
What if I bypass the preamp section of the Origin20 and use an alternative (Mooer Preamp Live in my case)? Assuming the preamp connected to effects unit and all directly go to amp's fx return, when I increase the gain on external preamp, will the effects still be distorted or not? Does bypassing amp's preamp section make any difference?
That'll depend on how hot you're running your external preamp. 😆 Having a master volume on an external preamp will for all intents and purposes be the same as running a Pre Phase Inverter Master Volume, which means you can dictate how hard you want to run your power amp. 😉
@@PedalPlatform Thanks for the explanation! As it will be similar to using preamp section of the amp itself, applying the effects after power amp looks like a better option to me. Then I can use a class-D power amp as you mentioned in the video. Thanks again, that was really helpful 👍
I set this up, and tried to use the looper, worked fine, until I added overdrive to my guitar, then the looped signal went overdrive as well. How can I eliminate this, and keep the looped signal clean, while I trigger my OD's? Thanks!
Any pedals / effects you place after a looper will also affect the looperd signal, so if you want to keep that clean, you'll need to move it to the end of the chain. If you're using the 4 cable method (or variants thereof), that means in the FX loop! Take a look at my TC Infinite signal chain video - it's not exclusively about loopers, but the same concepts apply: th-cam.com/video/oYgz0OVjlgg/w-d-xo.html
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you are saying that there is no good way of using time effects with a cranked amp like a Marshall even in the effects loop without it getting mushy besides using an attenuator and separate power amp. Thanks. I'm using the origin 50 head and cab.
If it's cranked to the point of compression / distortion on the power amp, that's correct. The only thing you can do is lower your effects level as much as you can get away with, and that should clean it up a bit, but it'll never be pristine. There's a TC video with Pete Thorn (th-cam.com/video/-nu-lvRHBW8/w-d-xo.html) in which he demos some of these issues, it's well worth a check. In the case of a cranked power amp, for which the concept of headroom is completely alien 😁, you'll have to treat it as if you're dialing it to go into the front of the amp, as the result will be very similar.
Hi Jeff, it's this one: Hypergravity MidBoost TonePrint: th-cam.com/video/6MVdyRiBzE8/w-d-xo.html. You'll have to recreate it, as for the time being there's no way of downloading them directly, but all the instructions are there.
I already have a torpedo captor and a cab m and I'm looking for a plethora x5, can I use the 4ish method and go from the output of the plethora and go straight to the cab m and then into my audio interface?
Yup, that'll work. But if you want your Plethora effects in stereo, you can also go captor -> cab m -> plethora -> interface. Even if you're happy with mono, try both ways and see which way you prefer. 😁
Nope; you can split without using any slots at all (th-cam.com/video/SXZsEOUv_44/w-d-xo.html), or you can put the FX loop on a slot if you want to be able to turn it on / off with a switch.
How different would - in terms of not distorting your time based effects (avoiding mesh/whatever) - would this 4 cable method be as opposed to putting the amp front-end pushing pedals (such as boosters/compressor/overdrive/etc) straight into the front of the amp and then place the plethora's time based effects in the amp's effects loop? Wouldn't that also avoid the mish-mash as well (provided one is not cooking the power tubes as well)?
Technically that's exactly what the traditional 4 cable method is: "gain" pedals in the front, and time based effects in the loop, before the supposed "clean" power amp to avoid mushing up the whole thing. In an ideal world - or with a really clean power amp - it works wonderfully! But some people, me included, like to cook their Marshall's power tubes 😁 And that's where the effects loop alone is no longer enough to keep things clean... 😉
@@PedalPlatform indeed. Cooking the power tubes - which I like doing - is a problem, at least for amateurs like me who can only afford so much on equipment. One has to compromise ☹️😝
Yup... that's also why I use digital modellers or analog pre-amp pedals into a cabinet simulator for most of my practice playing. The amps only get turned on for videos or those days when nothing else will do. 🤷🏻♂️😉
What about hybrid amps with tube preamps and digital power section ? I do not have an fx loop but I am wanting to put a jhs color box preamp before the plethora to hopefully breathe some life into it.
If you don't have an FX loop and want clean effects, then you have basically two options: - run everything into the front of the amp, keeping it as clean as possible, with loads of headroom - which means getting your gain sounds before the Plethora (your JHS option sounds good, no pun intended); - or go the really expensive route and create your own FX loop by using the 4-ish cable method. I'm assuming you're talking about a combo amp, and that you'd still want to use the built-in speaker: in that case, you'd run only your drives to the front of the amp as usual; on the back side, you'd need a load box with a line out where you plug your amp, take a line out (*NOT the speaker out!*) into the Plethora, then connect the output of the Plethora into a separate power amp, and use that to drive your speaker (impedance matched, otherwise you might get in trouble). But if you do decide to go that way, consider the Boss Waza Amp Expander or the Fryette Power Station, as they already have a built in amp and FX loop, which would make things a lot simpler.
Are you also experiencing a sharp momentary increase in volume when changing pedal boards/switching pedals or toneprints/ changing effect order when plugged in 4CM into either of these amps? I have a prs tube amp and a katana artist and both seem to suffer from this issue with the PX5. Thanks.
I do, but only when switching boards, as it goes into full bypass mode while it resets and reloads the effects engines. But because I only tend to switch boards in places where I can cut off the guitar sound, it doesn't get in the way. Is it too intrusive for the way you use it?
It depends on the pedal itself and also on who you ask. 🤔 The Plethora's converters are good enough that I don't really detect any practical difference. 👍🏻
Hi Davis, it should be fine, the Plethora should have enough dynamic range on the inputs to handle line level, but if you can tweak the output on the Ox Box and you get clipping from the Plethora, just turn the Ox down a bit.
So I know this video has been up for a while but I'm kinda confused about how you pick your loop send and return points. I would really like to dive into the plethora and setup my effects before and after the preamp so it sounds right. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Hi Jeff, I'm not sure I understand what you're asking... is it about the technical side of how to set up the Plethora, or is it more of a "which effects should go where" question? If it's the first, just pop to the settings menu, Board > FX Loop Insert, and pick between the several options, from loop before slot 1, to loop after slot 5, or anything in between. If it's the latter, it's a more complicated answer that basically boils down to the old "there are no definitive answers". If you haven't yet, watch this video: th-cam.com/video/AJo3uv-_nTo/w-d-xo.html. I didn't use a Plethora on purpose, but it'll show you the difference about having a delay and a reverb in different points of the signal chain. For other pedals, this might also give you some more ideas: th-cam.com/video/N0ukWiah5bU/w-d-xo.html. Let me know if any of this helps!
In the video you said you have to setup your loop points, I guess I got lost and didn't understand. Do you scroll down and insert the loop patch to put certain effects before the preamp and after, is that how that works? And also a witch effects should go where.
Check this one then: th-cam.com/video/SXZsEOUv_44/w-d-xo.html 😆As for which effects go where, a typical signal path could be something like: - Guitar > wah > compression > drive pedals (fuzz / overdrive / distortion / boosts) > preamp > modulations > delay > reverb > power amp > speakers / cab sim. Keep in mind this is the typical path, and there are lots of possible permutations just within that alone, e.g. which drives go where - boost before or after overdrive?, etc. If you want to throw the Plethora into the mix, check this one out: th-cam.com/video/N0ukWiah5bU/w-d-xo.html and let me know how it goes!
It's true bypass if you select that option on the Settings menu *and* if you're not using the FX loop. As for the buffers and converters themselves, they're very clean and transparent. I've had no issues with it yet, even running a fuzz pedal on the FX loop.
Hey man, thanks so much for the video it really helped. I have a plethora and a katana mk1 100w. I'd like to place the modular effects in the plethora into my fx loop. Does the 4CM let me do this. If I have Comp - Octave - Phase - Delay - Reverb. How do I get Delay and Reverb in the loop? So confused right now.
If I got that right, you want the compressor + octave + phase before the katana's preamp, and the delay + reverb in the katana's loop? If that's it, hook everything up in 4CM, then change the Plethora's FX loop routing to be between slots 3 and 4 (check this video at 3:38 if you're unsure about how to do it: th-cam.com/video/SXZsEOUv_44/w-d-xo.html). That way everything before the Plethora FX loop goes before the Katana, and everything after goes into the Katana loop. Hope that helps! 🙏🏻
@@PedalPlatform you are a Gentleman and a Scholar sir. You've got it! I had my loop routing set to 4-5. Watching your video above made me realise I was missing out on having the reverb in the fx loop of the katana like that. Thanks so much man. I'll be spending the rest of the weekend seeing what else I can learn from your videos! Subscribed.
One more question please, I've just bought a TC electronic spark mini, I want to use it in addition to. The plethora in the katanas fx loop, where do I need to position it, between which cables? Currently I have the plethora setup as we discussed with only some of the internal fx from the plethora in the loop. No external stomp boxes. Thank you again for all your help.
Happy to help, Ross! If you want to use the Spark Mini as a final volume boost, place it last in the chain between the Plethora Out and the Katana Fx Return. If on the other hand you want to use it as a gain boost, you can place it before any drive pedals, or the Katana input if you use the drive channels. If you haven't yet, check out this video for ideas: th-cam.com/video/N0ukWiah5bU/w-d-xo.html 😉
However...... if people don't have a loop on their amps you have suggested a Waza and the Boss product as options for getting a loop plus provide reductive load attenuation. These are both very expensive and not nearly as good as the Fryette Power Station 2. PS2 is much cheaper, has much better tone and is all class A tube technology - no a-d-a conversion. PS2 does not degrade base amp tones and greatly improves the tone of solid state amps and modelers. The Waza and Boss do degrade base amp tones. PS2 would be a good solution for you too - check it out and thx for the great video :)
You're absolutely right, I forgot to mention the PS2! D'oh... 🤦🏻♂️ It is indeed cheaper than both OX Box and Boss Tube Amp Expander, and does keep a fully analog signal path, but for my current personal use it would be overkill - I don't really need the power amp section, and I can get the rest of the features (including frequency dependent reactive load with fully analog signal path) with the Two Notes Torpedo Captor 8 I was using in the video. That said, if I ever come across a PS2 I'll absolutely review it because it is a staple in the reactive load market! 🙂
@@PedalPlatform yeah we all have different needs. In my case I don't do youtube videos but am (was) a gigging and recording musician. So I have no current use for a Captor X and don't use any IRs either. I have great amps and cabinets and mic everything. I try to avoid a-d-a conversions and am fully tube driven analog except for time based effects. Fryette PS2 is a great game changer for people with my needs. It tames high watt amps, amps up and greatly improves low watt solid state amps and modellers, plus provides a series loop for amps that don't have one. The Waza and Boss competitors also have many bells and whistles I have no use for while their basic attenuation and re-amp functions don't compare well with PS2 :)
I'm a bit confused by your video. Shouldn't the order of connecting be: 1. guitar->(plethora)input 2. (plethora)output->amp input 3. (plethora)send->return FX amp 4. send FX amp->(plethora) return
Hi! The signal path you outline is a common misconception, created by the naming conventions (ins to outs, FX loops sends to returns, etc). From a logical, name-based point of view, it makes sense; but looking deeper at the signal path inside each device it becomes apparent that it can't work that way. The internal signal path on both devices goes something like this: Plethora: Input -> FX block Pre -> Loop Send => Loop Return -> FX block Post -> Output; Amp: Input -> PreAmp -> Loop Send => Loop Return -> PowerAmp -> Speaker (I'm calling the Plethora FX blocks Pre and Post with regards to the loop position). Under the conventional, naming logic connection system, your signal path would be: Guitar -> Plethora Input -> Fx block Pre -> Plethora Loop Send -> Amp Loop Return -> PowerAmp -> Speaker This would in effect bypass Fx block Post and the Amp's PreAmp on your main signal path, would probably sound horrible, and if you're lucky, that would be the end of the story... 👀 ... because it would also create a feedback loop on the missing bits in that signal path: Plethora Loop Return -> FX block Post -> Plethora Output -> Amp Input -> PreAmp (gain......) -> Amp Loop Send -> Plethora Loop Return (back to the beginning of this loop, ad infinitum). ... which would be a proper mess, because even though in an ideal world it wouldn't (shouldn't...) have any input signal coming from the guitar, it would massively amplify all the internal electronic noise of every component in that path... 😶 Hope this helped, I will try to create a more graphical explanation on video at some point! 🙏🏻
@@PedalPlatform Thanks for your reply! So is (or should) this method be use at all configurations of pedalsboards, or only in this case of the Plethora x5 (and other multy fx)? I now have a pedal board with rougly the following setup: guitar->volume pedal->octaver->wah->drive->booster->amp And send fx loop->chorus->phaser->delay->return fx loop. edit: ok i just realised this method you explain is for multiffects only, and is different from when using normal (non multi-fx) pedals. Thanks for the help!
In the context of this video, I meant that you don't have it in the same sense as in a tube amp: two halves of the same tube, usually connected as a long tail pair, and which you can overdrive to get some glorious sounding distortion. As far as I know, most solid state amps do without this arrangement, mostly because of those pesky PNP / NPN thingimebobs that you can use to directly drive the opposite sides of the signal, and that you usually do not want to distort, under pain of your sound sounding a bit less glorious than it could otherwise be. But thank you for the heads-up, I shall try to be a bit more specific in the future. 👍🏻
@@PedalPlatform 99% of class AB solid state power amp do use a long tailed pair although in more modern electronic books we call it differential amplifier but the circuit is the same no matter if it's solid state or tube based. By the way as it's the first stage of most opamp, so you actually have probably half a dozen of them in every SS amps. The fact you can have complementary transistor has nothing to do here. Complementary transistor simply allows you to have both side of the signal referencing to ground so they can mix seamlessly without a transformer. If you look at schematics for class AB power amp using either tube, BJT or MOSFET and you will actually see very little differences in terms of topology. Even look at the internals of classD amp chip and you'll see the same thing there although it's called a differential driver but the topology is still the same. USB, Ethernet, PCI-X... still using same topology because it's super simple and it works well, why would anyone want to use something else ? (some do but they are audiophiles so that doesn't count) I know in guitar world people like to think tubes are different but they are not, it's just electronic. What matter here is distortion. Distortion add harmonics. Delay introduce some comb filter effect (with very low delay we call that a flanger). When you apply harmonic generator after a comb filter your generated harmonics ends up all over the place so you loose definition and it sound kinda mushy (what you demonstrated). That's why you typically don't want your delays or reverb before distortion unless you are after that particular mushy sound. This is true even in pure mathematics (you know that thing called digital modeling) regardless of what technology you use to distord the signal. It turns out that with most solid state amps also came different philosophy of design compared to most tube amps, where all the tone shaping should be done at low level and the power amp is just there to lift the signal without affecting the tone. Typically the brown sound on a marshall plexi is using the power amp as distortion effect. And on the other side the typical modern modeling amp will do every tone shaping at low level then use a super clean power amp section. But there is counterexample in both ways, Pignose is a solid state amp where you clearly make the power section distorting and for the good. Highwatt on the other hand makes tube amp famous for the superb fidelity of their power section. So this has nothing to do with the technology. It's all about where the distortion is generated, not how.
Thank you for that: you are of course correct, and something in my research for this video ended up leading me down the wrong path as it comes to solid state amplifier topology. My bad, should have checked Teemu Kyttala's bible instead of trusting just any old article on the internet. 🤦🏻♂️😄 I am working on one of the follow-ups to this video, in which I'm only using tube amps, but I will try to include this correction, as it is indeed an important point.
Get your Plethora X5 from:
Thomann: redir.love/l47us9oJ
Amazon: amzn.to/3BezytV
Links to other gear in the description.
I'm a bassist and most guitar videos are an unwatchable mess of endless show off solos. Yours is excellent. Tasteful playing designed to illustrate your point, and really informative. Thank you.
Thank you for the kind words! 🙏🏻
I was going nuts trying to figure out what I was doing wrong because I knew you could split the plethora to have effects go both before and after the preamp. Your video helped so much and I feel like a dummy now that I got it hooked up right, it makes perfect sense.
Cool, glad to be of help!
What 4 cable method did you use the one shown in this video or just use the fx loop on the plethora into the amp fx loop?
Never before have I had someone explain this in such an easy and entertaining way! Absolutely love your videos! Grade A+ content! This video in particular helped me so much!
Thank you for the kind words, I'm really happy that was useful to you! 🙏🏻
I really appreciate how quiet and relaxed you are.. some cars out there on the tube gimme the impression they try to talk as fast as they can😅
I try not to go too fast, otherwise I'll trip over my own words! 🤣🤦🏻♂️
I subscribed a day or two ago, after watching a couple of your Plethora vids. As I watch more of your channel, I realize I enrolled in a university! This is amazing content! And oh, by the way, you can really play a guitar brilliantly! Thanks man!!
Wow, thank you for the lovely comment! 🙏🏻🙏🏻 I'm super happy you're finding it helpful 😃
Thank you *so much* for your work, your pedagogy and your time. I am considering purchasing a plethora X5, to go with my Hologram, Microcosm and pretend I'm Fripp/Eno ;-). I have spent a lot of time looking at a lot of videos on the X5. I appreciate all of them, and their creators' goodwill, but I must say yours are the most informative. I am very grateful. Good Karma to you, brother 👍.
Thank you for the kind words 🙏🏻 Combining a Plethora with those two would make for some pretty serious firepower... 😉
Your Plethora tutorials have been immensely helpful. Thanks for posting these!
Glad you like them!
What a superb video on a subject I bet many guitarists are unaware. What they'll do - particularly with multi effects units in the amp loop - is to dampen down/adjust each fx preset to suit the amp setup/channel, unaware that their effects here are being distorted because of the type of power amp section. Quite simply, they get used to/accept the sound, and while it might be creative, it is still a compromise.
More importantly, I wonder if there is a reference web site that lets folk know if an amp's FX loop is prone to power amp distortion?
Excellent explanation and the 5 cable method at the end into your interface sounded great!
Thank you! 🙏🏻
Clair, brillant avec une pointe d'humour ... une merveille !
Merci bien! 🙏🏻
Excellent video! You answered all my questions about the 4 cable method and specifically about the Plethora and the Katana fx loop. Definitely more interested in the Plethora X5 now. Thanks!
Really glad it helped! 🙏🏻
Great content and I absolutely love your attitude man. Keep it up, greetings from GR.
Thanks, will do!
Despite the out of tune guitar, amazing video… very well done
That's how you see it's a great Les Paul style guitar, the 3rd string doesn't want to tune for love nor money. 😉
The Ukulele was pretty decent, though!
@@PedalPlatform kkk indeed!
Thanks for this awesome video. I have a question for you, can I use my Tonex pedal with Plethora in this way? I wonder if the 4 cable method works with tonex - plethora?
Another great video. There is something about your delivery that is very endearing and educational. Keep it up👍😎 I’ve got a Plethora x5 on the way and will certainly be using the 4 CM with my Marshall JVM Satch and MB Fillmore 50 heads.
Thanks, will do! And let us know how if goes with your amps! 😁
BEST VIDEO EVER
Hi great explication of 4 method cable! can I ask you for advice? I want to plug my volume pedal into my head's send return to control my head's preamp saturation by only increasing or decreasing the saturation volume of my preamp and since I have a TC Electronic Plethora X5 I want to know if the connection I would like to make is which below is correct: From IN of volume pedal in the amp send ;
Guitar plug it into the IN of the Plethora X5 Connect the Plethora X5 SEND to the Amp's Input ;
Connect the output of the volume pedal to the return of the Plethora X5 ;
Connect the Plethora X5 OUT to the Amp Return !
Unfortunately I'm away from home for a while for job applications and I can't try it directly and since it's an idea that has flashed through my head these days I would kindly like to know if the link I described to you above is correct! I don't want to take away your time, you have your commitments and therefore answer me whenever you want! Congratulations for this amazing videos!
A hug!🙏🎶🎸 Giorgio
My apologies Giorgio, I've only just seen this... TH-cam doesn't always notify me of all comments. 🤦🏻♂️ Have you managed to figure it out, or do you still need help with this?
@@PedalPlatform Thank you for answering me! With a little experimentation I solved the problem! Don't worry ! Thank you for answering me! 🙏🎶🎸
Excellent, once again I'm really sorry for the late reply, but I'm really glad you got it fixed. 🙏🏻
Great Video, fantastic content and clearly explained, love your thought processes!
Glad you enjoyed it! 🙏🏻
Great video
You made an outstanding video and love how you explained everything. Unfortunately, your video lost a sale for TC due to the X5's limitations. I subscribed and look forward to future videos.😎
Excellent video and thanks :) I'm a new Plethora owner. I've previously been running mostly TCE time based stomps in the loop of my Mesa Boogie Mark V 25 and a Fryette Power Station 2 for attenuation. I use the Mesa amp loop, not the PS2 loop. With the Plethora I've initially run it all up front and not put anything into the loop, so far. I've noticed a significant reduction in clarity in the Flashback delays, chorus and reverb, plus the operational changes you showed in your video, when all the effects are placed up front. This has re-inforced my opinion that all time based effects sound better, clearer in a good series loop. The Plethoria time based effects sound and function better in the loop imo and, if Plethora owners have amps with a loop, they should be using 4-cable method to get full potential from the Plethora. However,..........
Unfortunately PX5 loop is mono, so we loose the opportunity of playing on 2 channels with Delay or Reverb.
But I agree their sound is better in amp loop.
Ideally a reverb could play after the amp, may be in the cabinet, just as are doing some attenuation boxes as Two Notes Torpedo's. may be reverbs pedals (that I know) are all imperfect.
Yup - I'm also not a huge fan of effects into the front of the amp (or melting power amp 😁), unless I'm looking for that particular gritty sound. 👍🏻👍🏻
It's not that the reverb pedals are imperfect - it's just the nature of the beast. When you run any type of compression (in this case, tube amp sag) after a reverb / delay, all the low level signal gets brought up and mixes up with the direct signal from the guitar; if that compression is frequency dependent and reaches the point of distortion (overdriven tubes), then all bets are off - you lose clarity, tails and repeats last a lot longer, etc... which is why if you want that clarity back, you need to move those effects to a place in the signal chain where they can live without being compressed / distorted. 🙂 I'll do a follow up video on this...
@@ChristianSurieux yeah but I'm using the Mark V series loop and don't play in stereo so it's no issue for me. I also mic my amps and have no use for a Torpedo Captive X or any IR's. I try to avoid a-d-a conversion wherever possible :)
For stereo with 2 amps would you just use the ins and outs no effects loop on x5 but put the ins and outs to the effects loops of the amps
Thank you for your video. This was excellent...very well done! At the end of your video, you touched on adding the Boss WAZA TAE after the power amp. I have a JCM800, Marshall 4x12 cabinet, the Plethora X5 and the Boss TAE. Is it possible to explain in more detail how to connect the TAE into the fx loop. I was confused as to how to accomplish this. Thanks so much and great job!
Thank you. Would the Plethora X5 time-based effects get the purest sound by going in between the Reactive Load and IR (or after the IR before Class D amp)? I have a Dr Z amp and am debating using a Suhr Reactive Load IR to help with the time-based effects distortion at the phase invertor (caused when using the Plethora X5 within the amp's effects loop (as you addressed in the video)). Great information. Thank you again.
Brilliant video very informative 👏🏼
Glad it was helpful! 🙏🏻
Thank you so much for this and all of the other plethora X5 videos!! Easily the most informative set of videos.
Could you expand or extend this discussion into a stereo rig? I believe that's a 7 cable method but I'm not exactly clear on how thats set up. Ideally I'd like to run my dirt front of amps and then the plethora signal through the effects loops. That may require a y-splitter at the end of the dirt chain... I'll be experimenting with the next couple of days with either running everything through the front of the plethora or through its effects send but I thought this third option might be worth a try as well.
I had originally planned on doing a follow-up to this video, but had to put it on hold for while. I'll bump it up the list again.
How did your experiments go?
@@PedalPlatform thank you! Looking forward to your thoughts and insight on this ...Both my amps have an effects loop, so I'm assuming I can use a y splitter to run all of the dirt in front of the amps , the Sends from the amps into the plethora inputs and the plethora outputs into the returns of the amps. .. this would be logical assuming the levels are compatible. But I'm welcome to other ideas! Haven't tried this yet but I shall.
Currently running all the dirt through the plethora effects Loop, which sounds
better than running it directly in front of the plethora. Set up the effects Loop to be first in the plethora chain, with the first plethora effect being a noise gate. Decent results with this so far but again always looking for interesting options!
Following your 4-cable method setup, I assume the stereo effects is forced into mono, unless I am using an amp pedal with stereo in/out. Is that correct?
Olá! Os teus vídeos são muito fixes! Gostava de saber se é possível navegar nos canais de clean/ovdr/dist do amplificador e como faze-lo. Se não fôr possível vou ter de andar a fazer sapateado. Além disso eu tenho necessidades de ter os canais do amp sem qq efeito. Obrigado
Thank you for the video. When setting the plethora up for 4cm, can you only use 3 effects like you did in the video? You had 2 slots taken up with the send and return icons… many thanks. Jonny
Sorry for the delay (no pun intended...)! You can absolutely use the 5 slots in 4cm, those icons are there only to show where the loop is in the Plethora's internal signal path.
Very nice. I suppose you removed the 'cabinet simulation' in PX5 ?
This PX5 cab sim is still a subject of questionning in such an effect pedal ? When to use it ??? Any interest ? Without amp sim, it seems to be before the final amp effect ???
Thank you Christian! Yes, cabinet simulation was off in the PX5 because it doesn't sound good when you run it into something that will generate distortion after it - in this case, the effects loop of the Marshall - and I wanted to keep the rest of the signal chain as similar as possible, so I used cab sims in post production.
As for when to use it - you always need it in any situation where you're not playing with your amp connected to a traditional guitar speaker cabinet. If your PX5 is the last element in the chain (before your PA / FRFR / audio interface), or if you only have a looper or time based effects after it, then you can absolutely use the built in cabinet simulation.
I will make a video on cabinet simulation at some point in the future, hopefully that'll help clear things up!
Could I just connect the pedal’s fx loop to the maps effect loop? Like if I wanted to have the X5’s compressor in front of the amp, along with a few dirt pedals in front of the amp, but also use my amps distortion and all other effects in the loop, how would I set it up?
Hey! Thanks for the video.
Is there a way to implement the 4-c method with the built in sentry? I just got an x5 and would like it to take over my, duh, effects in the loop but also my revv noise gate which i have it in 4-c and is literally amazing. Thanks!
Are you from Portugal Filipe? Very cool videos. Keep going.
Yup! Nota-se muito? 😁 Obrigado! 🙏🏻
@@PedalPlatform Nota-se que estás a fazer um óptimo trabalho. Isso sim. :D
Great video and tips, thanks a lot. Just one question, if i connect my plethora with the 4 cable method, how can i insert my overdrives and distorsion in front of the amp ?
There are a few options, check this video for ideas: th-cam.com/video/N0ukWiah5bU/w-d-xo.html 😉
Great information... Thank you....
Glad it was helpful! 🙏🏻
Was just considering putting my plethora in effects loop of my dsl5 - won’t bother now ! I want my Marshall to sound like a Marshall
Sir, thank you for a very detailed overview of the pedal, you have done the TC a favour by putting out a video manual, which they didn’t bother to put together. One thing confuses me, in the 4 cable method when you put fx loop (two jacks facing each other) you suggest that the order of pedals goes left to right (ie. Compressor before amp, reverb and delay after). In another video, I saw a guy using the FX loop slot, connecting his overdrive via the pedal effects loop, and this part I do understand how it works, but he suggests that the order is right to left (he moves effect loop slot to the left most place and says “it sits at the end”. This confused the life out of me. Can you help me understand it better?
Not exactly sure if that's the case, but newer versions of the Plethora firmware allow you to reverse the direction of the slots, to simulate discrete pedals in which the signal flows right to left. In this video I'm using one of the initial firmware versions, with signal flowing left to right (still the default, and also my personal preference). That might explain the difference. Thank you for the kind comments! 🙏🏻
@@PedalPlatform Thanks, I thought that would be the case. My logic was severely tested. Whilst it makes sense that order of the pedals, from 1 to five suggests the order in the chain, the way cables are plugged in may suggest otherwise. But if they made it possible to flip it around, all the better.
@@PedalPlatform I can confirm that I found a video with introduction of 1.3.6 firmware update where signal direction can be changed (The Bearded Guitarist). The more I think about it, right to left makes more sense, the cables follow that logic but also, every pedal I had has had input on the right, output on the left so flowing right to left. I guess it didn’t make sense for them for the numbers to be 5 4 3 2 1 😁
That is absolutely the video which I was searching in TH-cam. Thanks for all the good explanation. I've marshall origin20c too, and when I was searching for tc electronic pedals such as flashback, hall of fame, I found plethora and want to buy it instead of buying those pedals seperately. What is your suggestion? I've already drive pedals btw. Thanks now
I'm new in the electric guitar and pedals world, and I have a Plethora X5 and Boss Katana 50, which doesn't have a default FX loop. Is there a workaround or can I buy something to replicate what you did here?
quite an interesting video!
I use 4CM with a PODGo and a Blackstar HT5R MKII. It works well in my opinion.
However, I want to play with my band and may need a bigger rig to play live.
I tried playing with the PODGo direct to FOH but was not a nice experience with the monitoring, but that is another story.
I had considered the Marshall Origin 20H as in the video, but now I am concerned that I won't be able to do 4CM in a simple way, withouth expending another couple hundred Euros to make it work correctly.
If this situation is with all Marshalls, is there any other alternative or recommendation?
How does Slash get the clean Delay from his amps? Is using Analog Pedals any different? That is something that I would be willing to move to.
Thanks for the help
Good video.
I've been looking at the Origin 20 head for a while, but I've heard they can be a bit unreliable and difficult for a tech to work on - is this in line with your experience, have you had any problems with the amp?
Re: serial vs. parallel FX loops, any pros to having the latter?
Thank you! My Origin 20 has been flawless so far, but I don't drag it around, and use it very sparingly, so I'm not the best candidate to tell you how sturdy or reliable it'll be if you plan on using it on the road :)
As for parallel FX loops, there could be some pros such as finer control over FX mix, and you get to keep your original signal intact, but then you run into other complexities. As an example:
- if you run serial delay + reverb on the fx loop:
-- are your pedals analog dry through?
--- if yes, do you want to keep the dry sound and mix that with the amp's internal direct path, or do you kill dry and go effect only?
--- if not, you need to go effect only, otherwise you'll run into phasing issues;
-- If you go effects only, where do you kill the dry sound?
--- Kill it on the delay, and you'll only have reverb on the delay tails, not on the direct sound;
--- Kill it on the reverb, and you don't get the direct impact of the delay repeats, you only get the reverb on the delay repeats;
-- etc etc etc
The way of fixing this is using a parallel effects mixer that will split your signal into the delay and reverb, then mix them back together before coming back into the amp, and you've added another layer of complexity into the system. And this is the "simplest" example...
Is it worth it? Up to you to decide 😁
I came up with a “15 cable” method! Guitars into a Boss LS2, send A goin to ToneX One, from there, it goes back into LS2, Send B goes into ToneX Pedal, out from there it goes into X5, then effects loop send to LS2, then to a Tube screener, then to a wah, then back to the X5 loop effects return. The X5 stereo out goes to interface 2, which then goes to a UAD Apollo X twin via SPDIF.
Well, that’s the plan anyways. Of course it’s not working though
This channel! Thank you!
You're very welcome! 🙏🏻
Great video!!! thanks
Thank you! 🙏🏻
Question pls: Should I put my OD pedal between the guitar and the amp input and the X5 in the effects loop (post pre-amp and prior to the power amp) for best effect?
"Best effect" is something only you can define, according to the sound you want to get out of your rig :)
OD pedal in front and X5 in the loop certainly works! But give this a watch, I go over a whole bunch of different routings that might also interest you: th-cam.com/video/N0ukWiah5bU/w-d-xo.html
@@PedalPlatform Thank you sir, very informative as always!
You're welcome!
Is there any benefit to using balanced (Stereo) cables with the X5, or is that problematic?
No benefit, all the Plethora's inputs and outputs are TS only, so regular mono cables will do just fine 👍🏻
Hello, man! Always a pleasure to see your work! I have a question, maybe you can help me: is it possible to use the 4 cable method in order to insert an RX loop into the wet signal of the Flashback delay? I'm think of a delay in which the dry signal is listened as such, whereas the delay feedback is affected by the fx loop line. Thanks ! Take care !
Not that I can think of... but a way of doing that would be splitting the signal before the Flashback, putting it into kill dry mode (by flipping a dip switch inside the cover), put your effects after the flashback, then blend the dry signal (that didn't go through the flashback) and the processed signal back.
You can easily achieve this with an EHX TriParallel Mixer (overkill, as you only really need one of the channels), GigRig Wetter Box, or any other parallel mixer pedal. Hope this helps!
Hi, how are you?
Thanks for the content! I really appreciated it 🙌🏻
I would like to ask you a question. If I want to use 4 method cable, but add some drives and delays pedals, where is the right position in the chain?
Best regards!
Hi Mauricio, thank you for the kind words 🙏🏻
With drive pedals, I would try in these two places:
- Between guitar and multiFX;
- Between multiFX and Amp in.
Depending on the specific pedals involved, they might behave very differently, so try them and see what feels and sounds better to you.
For the delays, it depends on how much you're driving your amp and how clean you want the delays to sound, but there's a couple of positions to try:
- Between multiFX and Amp in (if you're getting distortion from the amp, the delays will also get distorted);
- Between Amp FX loop send and multiFX loop return;
- Between multiFX output and Amp FX loop return.
Again, if you're driving your power amp hard, all of these will add some distortion to the delays, but there's no way around that unless you're using an attenuator and another way of amplifying your sound (4-ish cable method). Hope this helps!
@@PedalPlatform Wow! Of course this helps me a lot. I really appreciated your help. Thanks again for your videos and the time you taked for answer me 🤟🏻🤟🏻
@@PedalPlatform Great video and explanation. I'm new to the world of Multi-fx. Just bought the X5 and had the same question about drive pedals. My previous setup I had split, drive into front of amp, modulation into FX loop (Marshall 2525c). Is the plethora a true bypass? i.e. is there any difference if I put my block of drive pedals between the guitar and plethora or between the plethora and amp in?
p.s. Best 30 minutes I've spent on TH-cam in a while...
The Plethora can be true bypass, but only when not using any effect (obviously 😆), cab sim, or the FX loop, and more importantly, it doesn't have analog dry through. So if you want to use the 4 cable method, it will not only buffer your guitar signal, but also run it through the A/D/A converters. That said - they are really good converters, and I have even used some fuzz pedals between the Plethora FX send and the Amp in without losing the touch sensitivity or volume pot clean up. Personally, if I'm using any variant of the 4 cable method, I prefer to have the Plethora first, and then the drive pedals straight into the amp input.
But at the end of the day, you need to experiment with your specific guitar, pedals, and amp, to see what works better for you. 😄
My X5 is on the way. Was planning on using it in fx loop exclusively with my compressor and ODs in front of amp. But, don't want that "mushiness" of the x5 effects. I know you say the Marshall's have that issue. But you also say the "high gain monsters" keep the loop clean. I will be using a Marshall JVM 410. Any thoughts on hookup?
If you keep the power amp running relatively clean you should be fine. I don't have direct experience with the JVM, but as far as I know, it's a different beast to the "old school" Marshalls, that need to be cooking their tubes to sound good. Give it a try with the X5 in the loop and see if it works for you.
@@PedalPlatform thanks. I'm sure I will be asking more questions once I receive it. Thanks again. You're awesome.
Thank you Robert!
What if I bypass the preamp section of the Origin20 and use an alternative (Mooer Preamp Live in my case)? Assuming the preamp connected to effects unit and all directly go to amp's fx return, when I increase the gain on external preamp, will the effects still be distorted or not? Does bypassing amp's preamp section make any difference?
That'll depend on how hot you're running your external preamp. 😆 Having a master volume on an external preamp will for all intents and purposes be the same as running a Pre Phase Inverter Master Volume, which means you can dictate how hard you want to run your power amp. 😉
@@PedalPlatform Thanks for the explanation! As it will be similar to using preamp section of the amp itself, applying the effects after power amp looks like a better option to me. Then I can use a class-D power amp as you mentioned in the video. Thanks again, that was really helpful 👍
I set this up, and tried to use the looper, worked fine, until I added overdrive to my guitar, then the looped signal went overdrive as well. How can I eliminate this, and keep the looped signal clean, while I trigger my OD's? Thanks!
Any pedals / effects you place after a looper will also affect the looperd signal, so if you want to keep that clean, you'll need to move it to the end of the chain. If you're using the 4 cable method (or variants thereof), that means in the FX loop! Take a look at my TC Infinite signal chain video - it's not exclusively about loopers, but the same concepts apply: th-cam.com/video/oYgz0OVjlgg/w-d-xo.html
Dude I fucking love your content! This video is great.
Thank you Ian! 😉
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you are saying that there is no good way of using time effects with a cranked amp like a Marshall even in the effects loop without it getting mushy besides using an attenuator and separate power amp. Thanks. I'm using the origin 50 head and cab.
If it's cranked to the point of compression / distortion on the power amp, that's correct. The only thing you can do is lower your effects level as much as you can get away with, and that should clean it up a bit, but it'll never be pristine. There's a TC video with Pete Thorn (th-cam.com/video/-nu-lvRHBW8/w-d-xo.html) in which he demos some of these issues, it's well worth a check. In the case of a cranked power amp, for which the concept of headroom is completely alien 😁, you'll have to treat it as if you're dialing it to go into the front of the amp, as the result will be very similar.
Can you please link to the toneprint you are using in this video. Thanks
Hi Jeff, it's this one: Hypergravity MidBoost TonePrint: th-cam.com/video/6MVdyRiBzE8/w-d-xo.html. You'll have to recreate it, as for the time being there's no way of downloading them directly, but all the instructions are there.
I already have a torpedo captor and a cab m and I'm looking for a plethora x5, can I use the 4ish method and go from the output of the plethora and go straight to the cab m and then into my audio interface?
Yup, that'll work. But if you want your Plethora effects in stereo, you can also go captor -> cab m -> plethora -> interface. Even if you're happy with mono, try both ways and see which way you prefer. 😁
So when splitting the x5, you need to take up 2 spaces when using the x5 fx loop?
Nope; you can split without using any slots at all (th-cam.com/video/SXZsEOUv_44/w-d-xo.html), or you can put the FX loop on a slot if you want to be able to turn it on / off with a switch.
@@PedalPlatform thanks. I sent another question as well. Pedalboards are alot more complicated these days.
How different would - in terms of not distorting your time based effects (avoiding mesh/whatever) - would this 4 cable method be as opposed to putting the amp front-end pushing pedals (such as boosters/compressor/overdrive/etc) straight into the front of the amp and then place the plethora's time based effects in the amp's effects loop?
Wouldn't that also avoid the mish-mash as well (provided one is not cooking the power tubes as well)?
Technically that's exactly what the traditional 4 cable method is: "gain" pedals in the front, and time based effects in the loop, before the supposed "clean" power amp to avoid mushing up the whole thing. In an ideal world - or with a really clean power amp - it works wonderfully! But some people, me included, like to cook their Marshall's power tubes 😁 And that's where the effects loop alone is no longer enough to keep things clean... 😉
@@PedalPlatform indeed. Cooking the power tubes - which I like doing - is a problem, at least for amateurs like me who can only afford so much on equipment. One has to compromise ☹️😝
Yup... that's also why I use digital modellers or analog pre-amp pedals into a cabinet simulator for most of my practice playing. The amps only get turned on for videos or those days when nothing else will do. 🤷🏻♂️😉
What about hybrid amps with tube preamps and digital power section ? I do not have an fx loop but I am wanting to put a jhs color box preamp before the plethora to hopefully breathe some life into it.
If you don't have an FX loop and want clean effects, then you have basically two options:
- run everything into the front of the amp, keeping it as clean as possible, with loads of headroom - which means getting your gain sounds before the Plethora (your JHS option sounds good, no pun intended);
- or go the really expensive route and create your own FX loop by using the 4-ish cable method. I'm assuming you're talking about a combo amp, and that you'd still want to use the built-in speaker: in that case, you'd run only your drives to the front of the amp as usual; on the back side, you'd need a load box with a line out where you plug your amp, take a line out (*NOT the speaker out!*) into the Plethora, then connect the output of the Plethora into a separate power amp, and use that to drive your speaker (impedance matched, otherwise you might get in trouble). But if you do decide to go that way, consider the Boss Waza Amp Expander or the Fryette Power Station, as they already have a built in amp and FX loop, which would make things a lot simpler.
@@PedalPlatform thank you so much! Keep up the good work!
Thank you!
Are you also experiencing a sharp momentary increase in volume when changing pedal boards/switching pedals or toneprints/ changing effect order when plugged in 4CM into either of these amps? I have a prs tube amp and a katana artist and both seem to suffer from this issue with the PX5. Thanks.
I do, but only when switching boards, as it goes into full bypass mode while it resets and reloads the effects engines. But because I only tend to switch boards in places where I can cut off the guitar sound, it doesn't get in the way. Is it too intrusive for the way you use it?
How much does no analog dry thru affect the sound quality?
It depends on the pedal itself and also on who you ask. 🤔 The Plethora's converters are good enough that I don't really detect any practical difference. 👍🏻
@@PedalPlatform Thank you! You have been a huge source of useful info for my X5 quest.
Hi there,Can I run line level from my ox box into the x5 to add more stereo fx before going into my interface without damaging it?
Hi Davis, it should be fine, the Plethora should have enough dynamic range on the inputs to handle line level, but if you can tweak the output on the Ox Box and you get clipping from the Plethora, just turn the Ox down a bit.
@@PedalPlatform thanks.
So I know this video has been up for a while but I'm kinda confused about how you pick your loop send and return points. I would really like to dive into the plethora and setup my effects before and after the preamp so it sounds right. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Hi Jeff, I'm not sure I understand what you're asking... is it about the technical side of how to set up the Plethora, or is it more of a "which effects should go where" question?
If it's the first, just pop to the settings menu, Board > FX Loop Insert, and pick between the several options, from loop before slot 1, to loop after slot 5, or anything in between.
If it's the latter, it's a more complicated answer that basically boils down to the old "there are no definitive answers". If you haven't yet, watch this video: th-cam.com/video/AJo3uv-_nTo/w-d-xo.html. I didn't use a Plethora on purpose, but it'll show you the difference about having a delay and a reverb in different points of the signal chain. For other pedals, this might also give you some more ideas: th-cam.com/video/N0ukWiah5bU/w-d-xo.html. Let me know if any of this helps!
In the video you said you have to setup your loop points, I guess I got lost and didn't understand. Do you scroll down and insert the loop patch to put certain effects before the preamp and after, is that how that works? And also a witch effects should go where.
I'm learning more and more about the plethora so I hope I can explain my issues clearly, I kinda need a plethora for dummies book.
Check this one then: th-cam.com/video/SXZsEOUv_44/w-d-xo.html 😆As for which effects go where, a typical signal path could be something like:
- Guitar > wah > compression > drive pedals (fuzz / overdrive / distortion / boosts) > preamp > modulations > delay > reverb > power amp > speakers / cab sim.
Keep in mind this is the typical path, and there are lots of possible permutations just within that alone, e.g. which drives go where - boost before or after overdrive?, etc. If you want to throw the Plethora into the mix, check this one out: th-cam.com/video/N0ukWiah5bU/w-d-xo.html and let me know how it goes!
Thank you for all the help.
Do you have any info about buffers on this pedal? It is as the manual reports? true bypass?
It's true bypass if you select that option on the Settings menu *and* if you're not using the FX loop. As for the buffers and converters themselves, they're very clean and transparent. I've had no issues with it yet, even running a fuzz pedal on the FX loop.
@@PedalPlatform thank you. So it can be also buffered?
Yup, with all the lovely delay + reverb tails, etc. 😉
cool!
Hey man, thanks so much for the video it really helped. I have a plethora and a katana mk1 100w. I'd like to place the modular effects in the plethora into my fx loop. Does the 4CM let me do this. If I have Comp - Octave - Phase - Delay - Reverb. How do I get Delay and Reverb in the loop? So confused right now.
If I got that right, you want the compressor + octave + phase before the katana's preamp, and the delay + reverb in the katana's loop? If that's it, hook everything up in 4CM, then change the Plethora's FX loop routing to be between slots 3 and 4 (check this video at 3:38 if you're unsure about how to do it: th-cam.com/video/SXZsEOUv_44/w-d-xo.html). That way everything before the Plethora FX loop goes before the Katana, and everything after goes into the Katana loop. Hope that helps! 🙏🏻
@@PedalPlatform you are a Gentleman and a Scholar sir. You've got it!
I had my loop routing set to 4-5. Watching your video above made me realise I was missing out on having the reverb in the fx loop of the katana like that. Thanks so much man. I'll be spending the rest of the weekend seeing what else I can learn from your videos! Subscribed.
Thank you Ross, appreciated! 🙏🏻
One more question please, I've just bought a TC electronic spark mini, I want to use it in addition to. The plethora in the katanas fx loop, where do I need to position it, between which cables? Currently I have the plethora setup as we discussed with only some of the internal fx from the plethora in the loop. No external stomp boxes. Thank you again for all your help.
Happy to help, Ross! If you want to use the Spark Mini as a final volume boost, place it last in the chain between the Plethora Out and the Katana Fx Return. If on the other hand you want to use it as a gain boost, you can place it before any drive pedals, or the Katana input if you use the drive channels. If you haven't yet, check out this video for ideas: th-cam.com/video/N0ukWiah5bU/w-d-xo.html 😉
Excellent! No more to say :)
Thank you, glad you enjoyed it! 🙏🏻
@@PedalPlatform Indeed I did! My x5 is due to arrive on Monday. Thanks to your channel I am prepared :)
Great video. Very informative, well explained. Subscribed! Keep up your good work. Ah...I'll surely buy you a coffee :-)
Thank you Andrea, appreciated! 🙏🏻
However...... if people don't have a loop on their amps you have suggested a Waza and the Boss product as options for getting a loop plus provide reductive load attenuation. These are both very expensive and not nearly as good as the Fryette Power Station 2. PS2 is much cheaper, has much better tone and is all class A tube technology - no a-d-a conversion. PS2 does not degrade base amp tones and greatly improves the tone of solid state amps and modelers. The Waza and Boss do degrade base amp tones. PS2 would be a good solution for you too - check it out and thx for the great video :)
You're absolutely right, I forgot to mention the PS2! D'oh... 🤦🏻♂️ It is indeed cheaper than both OX Box and Boss Tube Amp Expander, and does keep a fully analog signal path, but for my current personal use it would be overkill - I don't really need the power amp section, and I can get the rest of the features (including frequency dependent reactive load with fully analog signal path) with the Two Notes Torpedo Captor 8 I was using in the video. That said, if I ever come across a PS2 I'll absolutely review it because it is a staple in the reactive load market! 🙂
@@PedalPlatform yeah we all have different needs. In my case I don't do youtube videos but am (was) a gigging and recording musician. So I have no current use for a Captor X and don't use any IRs either. I have great amps and cabinets and mic everything. I try to avoid a-d-a conversions and am fully tube driven analog except for time based effects. Fryette PS2 is a great game changer for people with my needs. It tames high watt amps, amps up and greatly improves low watt solid state amps and modellers, plus provides a series loop for amps that don't have one. The Waza and Boss competitors also have many bells and whistles I have no use for while their basic attenuation and re-amp functions don't compare well with PS2 :)
I'd love to be able to mic cabinets, but living in an apartment my neighbours might have something to say about that... 🤣
I'm a bit confused by your video.
Shouldn't the order of connecting be:
1. guitar->(plethora)input
2. (plethora)output->amp input
3. (plethora)send->return FX amp
4. send FX amp->(plethora) return
Hi! The signal path you outline is a common misconception, created by the naming conventions (ins to outs, FX loops sends to returns, etc). From a logical, name-based point of view, it makes sense; but looking deeper at the signal path inside each device it becomes apparent that it can't work that way. The internal signal path on both devices goes something like this:
Plethora: Input -> FX block Pre -> Loop Send => Loop Return -> FX block Post -> Output;
Amp: Input -> PreAmp -> Loop Send => Loop Return -> PowerAmp -> Speaker
(I'm calling the Plethora FX blocks Pre and Post with regards to the loop position).
Under the conventional, naming logic connection system, your signal path would be:
Guitar -> Plethora Input -> Fx block Pre -> Plethora Loop Send -> Amp Loop Return -> PowerAmp -> Speaker
This would in effect bypass Fx block Post and the Amp's PreAmp on your main signal path, would probably sound horrible, and if you're lucky, that would be the end of the story... 👀
... because it would also create a feedback loop on the missing bits in that signal path:
Plethora Loop Return -> FX block Post -> Plethora Output -> Amp Input -> PreAmp (gain......) -> Amp Loop Send -> Plethora Loop Return (back to the beginning of this loop, ad infinitum).
... which would be a proper mess, because even though in an ideal world it wouldn't (shouldn't...) have any input signal coming from the guitar, it would massively amplify all the internal electronic noise of every component in that path... 😶
Hope this helped, I will try to create a more graphical explanation on video at some point! 🙏🏻
@@PedalPlatform Thanks for your reply! So is (or should) this method be use at all configurations of pedalsboards, or only in this case of the Plethora x5 (and other multy fx)?
I now have a pedal board with rougly the following setup: guitar->volume pedal->octaver->wah->drive->booster->amp And send fx loop->chorus->phaser->delay->return fx loop.
edit: ok i just realised this method you explain is for multiffects only, and is different from when using normal (non multi-fx) pedals. Thanks for the help!
You're welcome! 🙏🏻
No fx loop
Just when I thought I understood the 4CM, I watched this video......
Sorry, I guess? 🤣
No phase inverter in solid state power amp ?? Really ??
I do agree with your next sentence : you don't want to get into this !
In the context of this video, I meant that you don't have it in the same sense as in a tube amp: two halves of the same tube, usually connected as a long tail pair, and which you can overdrive to get some glorious sounding distortion. As far as I know, most solid state amps do without this arrangement, mostly because of those pesky PNP / NPN thingimebobs that you can use to directly drive the opposite sides of the signal, and that you usually do not want to distort, under pain of your sound sounding a bit less glorious than it could otherwise be.
But thank you for the heads-up, I shall try to be a bit more specific in the future. 👍🏻
@@PedalPlatform 99% of class AB solid state power amp do use a long tailed pair although in more modern electronic books we call it differential amplifier but the circuit is the same no matter if it's solid state or tube based. By the way as it's the first stage of most opamp, so you actually have probably half a dozen of them in every SS amps.
The fact you can have complementary transistor has nothing to do here. Complementary transistor simply allows you to have both side of the signal referencing to ground so they can mix seamlessly without a transformer.
If you look at schematics for class AB power amp using either tube, BJT or MOSFET and you will actually see very little differences in terms of topology.
Even look at the internals of classD amp chip and you'll see the same thing there although it's called a differential driver but the topology is still the same. USB, Ethernet, PCI-X... still using same topology because it's super simple and it works well, why would anyone want to use something else ? (some do but they are audiophiles so that doesn't count)
I know in guitar world people like to think tubes are different but they are not, it's just electronic.
What matter here is distortion. Distortion add harmonics. Delay introduce some comb filter effect (with very low delay we call that a flanger). When you apply harmonic generator after a comb filter your generated harmonics ends up all over the place so you loose definition and it sound kinda mushy (what you demonstrated). That's why you typically don't want your delays or reverb before distortion unless you are after that particular mushy sound. This is true even in pure mathematics (you know that thing called digital modeling) regardless of what technology you use to distord the signal.
It turns out that with most solid state amps also came different philosophy of design compared to most tube amps, where all the tone shaping should be done at low level and the power amp is just there to lift the signal without affecting the tone. Typically the brown sound on a marshall plexi is using the power amp as distortion effect. And on the other side the typical modern modeling amp will do every tone shaping at low level then use a super clean power amp section. But there is counterexample in both ways, Pignose is a solid state amp where you clearly make the power section distorting and for the good. Highwatt on the other hand makes tube amp famous for the superb fidelity of their power section.
So this has nothing to do with the technology. It's all about where the distortion is generated, not how.
Thank you for that: you are of course correct, and something in my research for this video ended up leading me down the wrong path as it comes to solid state amplifier topology. My bad, should have checked Teemu Kyttala's bible instead of trusting just any old article on the internet. 🤦🏻♂️😄 I am working on one of the follow-ups to this video, in which I'm only using tube amps, but I will try to include this correction, as it is indeed an important point.