I think my issue with people complaining with NC scenes in BL, is that it feels as if people are trying to infantilize queer stories in order to make them more palatable for straight audiences
Exactly. Why do people say stuff like "it's about actual love, not just sex" as if sex isn't a completely normal and regular part of almost every romantic relationship ever? Unless you're somewhere on the asexuality spectrum, sex is just another way to express love and to deepen the bond between you and your partner. It's just a given in straight media, yet whenever there's anything even remotely physical in a queer story, suddenly everybody has a problem. 🙄 And also, let queer people have their "porn without plot" dramas too! We are practically drowning in oversexualized straight media, we deserve to have some made for us as well. Just let there be variety. Porn without plot. Cheesy romantic fluff that makes you wanna vomit sugar. Cutesy highschool comedies where holding hands is a big deal. Angsty tragedies about real-life problems. Dark thrillers full of violence. Wholesome relationships that give you butteflies. Toxic relationships that will make Killing Stalking pale in comparison. And everything in between. That way, the genre can only expand and grow and everyone can find something that suits their preferences and even their current mood, because c'mon, I can't be the only BL lover who will watch Cherry Magic or Keita Hatsukoi one day, and KinnPorsche the next day, right? 🤣
@@Eris_Norregard I am not sure if this comment was in regard something in the video (I am yet to watch the vid) but I don't think sex is anything bad or something, but I do think that *showing love as nothing but sex* is a problem because it results in most new gen ending up thinking that sex is love which is actually NOT true. If you have nothing in your relationship except sex, then there is issue. Sex is part of romantic love not the entirety of it! PS: It is not argue or fight but just my opinion. There is a reason, new generation are more lonelier than previous one, coz of social media promoting the idea of sex being everything in relationship and the consuming younger audience, hence not finding a partner they can truly connect to but just who they are compatible with.
I honestly think the intention and context matters a lot. I agree that normalizing sex and showing positive depictions of queer sex is super important. And if a show is written to include a lot of NC scenes (like a FWB situation) and they fit into the context of the story, then it makes sense for that to be a large chunk of the show.. And I'm not gonna sit here and act like I don't enjoy a well-done NC scene when they come around. But it's frustrating when it feels like shows promote the hell out of NC scenes in their marketing only to offer nothing in terms of writing or plot once you actually get into the show. Makes it all feel hollow and that's when I can sometimes question the intentions of the production teams. Definitely a nuanced discussed and one that's different for each individual show. Also yes to more sex education always!!!! Great discussion as always~
I feel like you should dive deeper into fetishism vs appreciation aspect because as a gay man I see it a lot in online forums and when I call it out people are like "you should be thankful because without our (straight female) support, you wouldn't get anything."
I mean you're not wrong, but ultimately it's futile trying to police other people's personal preferences or "fetishes". People like what they like. Of course these likes are influenced by external factors many of which are problematic...but what are you going to do? Outside of BL there is no epidemic of straight women in any significant capacity objectifying gay men in any meaningful way. So what are we really talking about here? To what end are we having this conversation?
@@mg.5968 you have no idea. Lots of straight women fetishise gay men in real life. Even if it’s online only online, why would that be okay. Online affects how we act in real life. It okay if I spew hate online and then pretend I don’t in real life? Do you even know what fetishisation means?
Thai BLs really really really to pull up their socks when it comes to acting. While the volume of Thai BLs is rising, the quality of acting is equally spiralling downwards. The last Thai BLs I watched with really good acting were 180 Degree Longitude Passes Through Us and Love Mechanics. Sadly, some fans seem content with the racy nsfw scenes which spike the viewership, but honestly, once I am done with those series, I don't even remember their names. That's how less of an impact they make. For me, Japanese BLs will always rule supreme. I mean, the acting has always been on-point and it really doesn't matter if they do not bang on-screen, the intensity is conveyed through their acting. And that's what I want- quality. Korean BLs are getting there with the acting and doing a brilliant job. I really hope the Thai BL industry starts focusing more on making the actors 'act' besides the smut.
My problem with BLs nowadays is that the sex scenes get better but the acting and the story get worse. They're just selling sex instead of telling good stories about queer culture and as a gay man, I cannot support these kinds of shows.
As you mentioned, my biggest concern is that the actors aren't being exploited. I don't mind gratuitous sex or even the "porn without plot" shows, if the actors are comfortable and they understand the choices they made then I'm cool with it. Better sex scenes would also be appreciated, make it more accurate and educational. We still have so far to go with consent, lube, and safe sex. Also, I HATE that comedic bit where the bottom's ass is so sore that walking, sitting, etc. is painful the next day or sometimes for multiple days after the sex. If that's happening then the sex you're having is way too rough or rushed or improperly prepared. Like we never get proper exploration of people who like rougher sex and enjoy that pain, or even an exploration of what happens when we don't get comprehensive and inclusive sex ed and how that can harm (LGBTQIA+) people in their first sexual encounters, but you do wanna imply that rough and painful sex for weird comedy?
Yes on the better scenes. I have realized I often zone out and start to focus on all the things I would make BL scenes better in 😅 like better lighting, better props etc. But I'm on the opposite side on the bottom in pain skit, I haven't seen that in many shows. Mostly they have their scene and jumps up afterwards like nothing happend. Must been a sad experience if you are not even a little bit in pain after seggsytime 😂😅
why does entertainment have to be educational? it's entertainment not edutainment, anyone watching a bl with nc scenes should be old enough to have gone through a sex ed class in school or be capable of finding their own educational resources online
The term "gay for pay" has no place in a discussion about drama series. Actors are hired to create characters, not to play themselves. An actor who takes a job playing a gay character is an actor for pay, not gay for pay. That expression originated to describe street hustlers and transferred later to porn models.These careers fall under the sex worker label because straight hustlers and straight porn models _have actual sex for money_ with the client or with other paid performers. "Gay for pay" is no metaphor in those careers: it's a literal description of what they do. Professional acting is something else. Even when a scene involves nudity, body contact, and kissing, the "action" in a drama series is illusory. Equivalent to sex work? No! No! No! Good actors will choose projects that challenge their acting chops. For example, a script that features solid plotting to rivet the viewer's attention, a meaty character arc to test the actor's range, and dialog that sparkles to test their line delivery will attract actors who want _to act_ and be good at that. If they don't see those elements in a script, they are more likely to pass on the project. Who will take these jobs? Actors (good or bad) in need of a payday. Actors (good or bad, but likely inexperienced) in need of a professional big break. Actors (bad) who cannot hope to win those better acting gigs. Hence, these plot-light, NC-heavy series often feature actors whose lack of skill sticks out like morning wood from a pair of boxers. In other words, there likely is a correlation between subpar acting and scripts that sacrifice story quality in favor incorporating more NC scenes. Same reason people joke about the "acting" that occurs in porn movies. Those _sex workers_ are not real actors at all. In closing, actors who play gay should NEVER get dissed by association with with street hustlers and porn models. Quite the reverse. Good on them for accepting a role playing a character stigmatized by the normative values of their home country.
I'm very much someone who places the importance of plot, acting, writing, and production over NC scenes. My top ten bl list includes a bl that literally has no kiss scenes (my love mix up) ranging all the way up to a very explicit bl. I like NC scenes as much as the next person, but I think they need to be done correctly, and have a well done show around them. I also think people need to be careful about supporting some of these p*rn without plot bls because you never know what's going on behind the scenes. I know 9NAA for one has been treating their actors like trash, and have been rather exploitive with them. That being said, I'm so looking forward to only friends! I absolutely adore 3 will be free, and I also really enjoyed the warp effect, so my expectations for this show are very high. Plus the cast is great! We already know First and Khao can absolutely act the butts off, and I'm excited to see the other actors show off the range of what they can do as well.
I'm not against NC scenes, but I am against them existing for no valid reason. Like NC scenes for the sake of promotion/sexualization/exploitation as opposed to serving the plot and characters. I don't like the idea that BL is either "pure" or "porn without plot". I think both expectations are harmful, although there is nothing wrong with having many or not having any NC scenes. Also, I really do appreciate some of the variety we are starting to get in NC scenes. Series that include things like kink and BDSM, FWB relationships, or other non-normative forms of sexual interactions feel like a breath of fresh air to me. It's boring and unrealistic to depict sexual intimacy as only romantic attraction straight to intercourse. So I appreciate variety, with (hopefully even more in the future) recognition that NC scenes don't need to be vanilla, romantic, or even include physical contact to be enjoyable. If these scenes are done well they can even be better while depicting non-normative and healthy interaction. **This is all with the note that it only works when nobody, either on-camera or not, is being taken advantage of.
This is such an important topic in BL and after hearing about this poll I was wondering when you'd do a video on it. I do understand the caution around potentially oversexualizing queer media. However, having lurked around bl twitter and reddit, I find it very telling that the people I most often see complaining about too much sex in BL are in usually not queer themselves (or at least not publicly so, which is of course something to consider). I'm sooooo sick of the pearl clutching whenever a show has even a drop of horniness, and the subsequent assumptions about the quality of the show which people make often before it's even been fully shot. The inclusion of sex in a story doesn't invalidate all other aspects of casting, production, writing, performance, etc. Letting characters show some skin and have a sex life doesn't automatically mean the writing or acting is going to be bad. Are some BLs leaning on sex appeal to grab attention? Absolutely. But this is not new or exclusive to BL, as you pointed out traditional dramas have been doing it for decades already. And if that's just not your cup of tea, if you can't or don't want to handle any spice, that's totally fine. Go to a potluck at a white midwestern church, grab a vanilla latte on your way home, sit down with a Korean or Japanese high school BL and have a grand ol time. Your favorite pinky touches and dead fish kisses aren't going anywhere just bc the field of available BLs is widening to include some spicier content. Adding extra spicy sauces to a menu doesn't mean you can't still have your unseasoned mashed potatoes if that's what you enjoy. I think what really frustrates me the most is not just the hypocrisy of the pearl clutching, not just the homophobia of aiming these criticisms at BLs far more than at the plethora of straight media that uses the exact same sex-based marketing strategies; it's that they act as if all BL is getting spicier and there's nothing left for their poor vanilla palate. Which is just patently false. More tame shows aren't going away, and they will continue to get made. If you actually step back and look at BL overall (especially compared to more indie or mainstream western LGBTQ+ media) it's traditionally been very censored and sexless. I looked at Thai dramas on MDL w/ the LGBTQ+ tag (since there's no BL specific tag), sorted by most popular, and of the top 10 only KinnPorsche has anything actually graphic. Of the others in the top 10 where we know characters have sex, all we get to actually see is them making out with their shirts off, anything more than that is largely just implied and we cut to the morning after before the pants even come off. If you sort by top rated instead it's even more tame, and basically none of those top 10 were marketed on sex appeal at all. When we do get a BL that's a wonderfully sexy story of messy relationships, it's a drop in an ocean of closed mouth kisses and side hugs. We're frickin thirsty, just let us have this one drop. Yet some still act as if a handful of nc scenes spread out across a few shows are like some sort of plague tainting the BL pool, which is so damn stupid. What I think a lot of spice critics often overlook is how there are still shows that could have used sex appeal to gain views but kept the story and marketing on the tamer side anyways, not every show uses spice for attention even though it would likely boost views. Recent one that comes to mind is Love Mate, which implies that the characters hook up but we don't see anything beyond some kisses and they wake up the next day both fully clothed and fresh as daisies, even though there are swimming scenes in the show so we've seen both actors shirtless already and I'm sure the creators know that bl twitter could have exploded if they'd shown more skin during the moments of intimacy. Same for Our Dating Sim, one of the leads Lee Seung Gyu is not shy on his socials about being a brutally sexy gym rat, but they didn't use his physical sex appeal at all in the show, dressing him exclusively in baggy casual clothes that suited his character and keeping the physical affection plentiful and sincere but still on the sweet and pg side. Moonlight Chicken could have more than gotten away with being a lot steamier in parts than it was, there's plenty of other GMMTV shows that have taken that approach, but they only used just enough spiciness to serve the story. The education aspect also gets glossed over a lot and I'm really glad you pointed it out. We need BL to address the realities of queer sex more directly, bc fantasy or not some viewers are going to learn about what to expect in queer sex from these shows. And there are plenty of ways of doing that without coming off as a cautionary after school special too. Like, I understand the worry about stds Uea had in Bed Friends, but I really didn't like how they overshadowed a simple routine std test with so much fear and anxiety. I can't believe I'm saying this, but TharnType actually handled this really well. They got tested together but didn't treat it like it was the end of the world, it was just a slightly inconvenient but very necessary followup to their encounter. And it served the characters too, bc once he knows they're both clean you can see some of the guilt and shame start to lift from Type's shoulders. But the day a BL plainly shows lube use or even just talks about the need for lube I'll jump for frickin joy bc I do not know how all these fictional boys are surviving their dry sex 😬
My problem with sex in BLs isn't the sex itself, but rather that it's always either or. You either have that soft BL where they barely even touch, and people consider that to be "just pure love". And on the other side, you have steamy scenes, with the couple(s) being focused on physical touch, which people label as "porn without plot". I have no problem with both concepts, in itself. But rather the execution. It's always those two extremes, instead of mixing it. When watching those "soft BLs", most of the time it lacks in physical touch. While I do love it when people explore the emotional side of love and show in what ways you can show you partner you love them without being hot in bed, those "soft BLs" feel like they're anxious of touching. Anxious that the fans might label as as "non-pure", as soon as the couple might share a bit of a longer hug or have bed-eyes or something. And on the other hand, BLs which are focused on sex, lack in emotional connection. You get two actors, who are seen as hot & handsome by the majority, and let them make out and be hot together, and that's pretty much it. The writers don't put much love into writing the emotional scenes, but only want to deliver in good sex scenes. And that is exactly the problem. Love isn't just this or that. Sure, there are people who only experience sexual attraction and others who only experience emotional attraction. And these people are totally valid, but that's not how BL is marketed. If you market a series where the couple is supposed to be together physically and emotionally, yet only deliver one side, then that's not gonna work. It's not difficult to include both sides of the coin. Take KinnPorsche, for example. While KP still focuses majorly on the physical side, it does also explore the emotional side more than other BLs. And it works. The actors deliver well for both sides, and mix it together perfectly. Just the writing needs to be worked on. I'd want to have a series that has both "pure soft scenes" and "porn without plot", mixed together. Is it that hard to show a couple, who likes having sex, that they do deeply love each other, on the emotional level? And is it wrong for a couple, who loves each other deeply, without being very touchy publicly, to have hot bed scenes? They love to market hetero that way, so why not BLs too? Find a balance. It really isn't that difficult.
NC scenes show the best how good the actors are. Portraying strong emotions, crying, and solving issues actually don't have gender (for example, the scene from Between Us, where Win saves Team from drowning. Replace Team with a girl, will it change Win's reaction? No. Because it's not about Team being a boy. It's about Win's fear to lose the person he loves). But the way actors are not afraid to touch eo, kiss, hug, hold hands, etc can show that they are aware of the characters they play. Sometimes their unwillingness to kiss or hug their partner is so visible, that you just see and feel their disgust.
It’s not a bad thing to watch and enjoy gay or straight NC scenes. But it is an issue if people reduce LGBTQ relationships only to sex because gays are already oversexualised! This is why people think it’s inappropriate for children to watch gay content because they immediately link it to sex. We still need cute, child-friendly gay shows! And plenty of them exist! We need diversity of LGBTQ stories. Sexy, romantic, cute, sad, action packed etc all of that is valid! We shouldn’t demonise a good show just because it has a lot of sexy times in it! Sex sells. People are h*rny asf, we can’t change that. As long as you’re an adult, there’s nothing wrong with it, plot or no plot. If it’s a good time then enjoy it!
I have so many thoughts on this as a queer nonbinary ace person who loves to watch queer stories. My primary complaint about physical intimacy in Thai shows is that it often feels exploitative of novice actors. Even if I'm immersed in the story, the moment they do anything that might be uncomfortable for an actor I wonder how the actors actually feel about it. I'm more comfortable watching more intimate acts that require less intimacy from the actors, than less intimate acts that are actually done by the actors, say simulated sex where the actors are mostly covered and barely touching versus two actors kissing in a shot that emphasizes the contact. This discomfort with real acts goes double for out of series stuff like events and social media fan service. This can be exacerbated by the idea that it's a character's first relationship because the character is somewhat uncomfortable and the actor may be uncomfortable and i have no certainty that the scene wasn't the result of coercion, even indirectly, of vulnerable young actors possibly in their first ever acting job. Every scene serves multiple purposes. NC scenes exist in a spectrum of other purposes. It's when those other purposes are minimal (especially character development and plot) that it feels like its sole purpose is titillation. I have no problem with a show that's more sex than not if it's relevant to the plot and character development. If the plot features sex, then it makes sense to be a major aspect. And (most) relationships involve sex so it can be fine to include it, especially if it serves to further the relationship, flesh out their dynamics, or further develop one or more characters. I think "The Warp Effect" really focused on NC scenes for character or plot reasons, while also serving the message/purpose of normalizing it as an aspect of adult life. TV series have plots. If there is no real plot, then it's porn. But NC scenes don't automatically make it porn. But we should really ensure that actors are being respected. I have no problem with "Only Friends" because it's just "Friendzone" but with a group of queer guys (and I hope we're past saying it's unrealistic for a friend group to be mostly or entirely queer; friend groups are based on emotional bonds, not population demographics) (Also, I trust Jojo in general to have less superficial queer depictions than some shows, though Aof is the best at that to me. They're friends and collaborators and they both have really thoughtful things to say about making a show, story construction, and queer lives). I have so much more I could say. This is a topic I've thought about pretty much since I found any queer media to watch starting about fifteen years ago.
Agreed. Another topic that I think would be good to address is a recent trend I see where people make sweeping and denigrating generalizations about Thai dramas, saying that they are ALL inferior to Korean and Japanese dramas. Personally I think that's kinda rac!st, but I've really been seeing a whole hecking lot of it lately. 'Thai sh!t' seems to be the commonly accepted term for all Thai media now. This argument is often paired with the 'Thailand only does it for the s3x scenes' critique. I'm sure for some dramas that's true (which is fine), but like... go watch Triage and then tell me that you're still coming away with the same conclusion.
omg i thought that it’s only me. that’s why i gravitate towards Korean BLs more lately because they have softer tones, tho some of the book-based ones are a let down due to censorship, by which scenes are taken out, like as simple as a kiss?! 😩
re: only friends, i really hope they don't sanitize it just because of backlash (ofc as long as the plot is good). i'll be honest, i skip a lot of those scenes just because nc and i don't gel all that well. but as someone who's mlm who keeps seeing self proclaimed fujoshis with a savior complex talking about nc scenes and how it ruins gay rep, i'm very very tired.
bloop! i'm sorry it just gives homophobia. and a lot of these same ppl love kbl (not a problem, i do too) where there is more often than not, little to no intimacy! forget NC scenes, i just mean intimacy, period. and they will act like that is not due in large part to homophobia in korea overall, and in their rating system.
Happy Pride! Thank you for your energy and effort in putting out this deep dive video on this topic. We all appreciate your efforts. I don't think BL is becoming too racy. I think we are seeing an expansion of the stories and topics we didn't see in 2016. When exploring a place we've not previously been (or not been to often) we may see some fails or some misses. Things that make us cringe and ask WHY? Why did they do that? How could they do that? No one in any industry is trying to purposefully fail and miss the mark (not even the ones in it for a money grab). Sometimes when writers see xyz plot line or scene worked for this book/drama/series/movie they run to include it in their work in the hopes of having a similar success. That rush to get it to market quickly can mean a lack of careful planning and increases the odds of something missing the mark. It really is wild to see the same issues the MM Romance Community in the west have experienced cycle through the BL Industry. The rush to throw in sex scenes because they sold well was out of control. Only a few got it wasn't the sex scenes but the connection most of the readers/watchers crave. Each and every scene should move the plot forward if it doesn't why is it there? Someone's relationship with sex & sexual relations can tell an incredible amount about a person. Sex is a way to show connection, love, resolution, or just characters having fun (> but we should be finding out more about them through the scene fun or not). I don't think there's a cut off of what's too racy. I think it depends on the characters & the story that determine what is too much. I'm glad there's a variety of BL with various levels of smexy goodness. ((It's interesting when people complain about not getting realism and then someone gives it to them > just not the way they want and they are even more unhappy. The reality is there are messy groups of friends who have sex and are all tangled up and for others it's unheard of... No one is right or wrong > except when we judge this interaction as "bad" when it is clearly some people's experience even if it's not your own.)) Many hugs, Z. Allora
I consider myself a bit of a slacker when it comes to be a BL fan, mainly because I’m not on social media that much. I like BL because it gives me new perspectives about lgbtqia+ stories. And a lot can be said of how much you respect the community by the care and way you deliver these stories. Like are they accurate to the queer experience? Like issues, consent, hopes etc? And sex is also part of it. Is there too much NC scenes nowadays? That depends on what type of story it is. I don’t prioritize NC when it comes to BL or any type of production, they’re only there to enhance the experience. My main priority is the story and that doesn’t only include plot. That’s just the order of the events that makes the story. What about the other elements that are part of those BL? For example Big Dragon(BD) is often accused of having no plot, something that I agree but that is due to the poor source material. And that’s where I think the problem lies with most of these BL productions. Yet by just saying that BLs like BD have no plot and just stop at that can seem a little dismissive of all the work the people involved put into that production. And the fact the fans vote for more NC scenes than the other story elements proves my point. Yes, in BD the plot wasn’t good but there’s some specific creative choices, mainly directing cinematography that delivered a stunning visual storytelling. Even the NC scenes were well choreographed, good acting and the lighting was on point. And the score… the score during these scenes… perfect. Another example is KP, and an unpopular opinion btw, I hated KP’s plot, especially the end, but I cannot deny the production masterpiece that KP is. But of course there’re BLs that unfortunately fail in all these elements. And is not only the BL industry that is like this. Then why would it give us a bad rep? Do we have to fit in a tiny purity box so we can be accepted by the straights? 🙄 So I guess I agree with you, it’s a very complex and nuanced topic that not only involved the companies, cast and production crews but the audience and how we see the lgbtqia+ community, sex, etc.
My personal take on this is that the amount (excess or lack of thereof) of sex scenes in a particular given media isn't the issue, so much as the quality and narrative function of the scenes themselves. I feel like so much attention is placed on the notion of sex itself and its historical and cultural associations (as you also nicely mention yourself in regards to sex positivity). I look at it from the angle of: ok, sex scenes are become relied upon more and more to attract an audience, and the way it's being done matters (linking back to your idea of exploitation). So, if we were to replace the key word 'sex' with 'gardening' (or any other word you can think of) for instance, it would be the same issue. If gardening scenes are permeating series and taking up so much screen time, but they're not being used efficiently, don't add or reflect the characters' developments or characterisation itself, not adding to the worldbuilding or sense of space of the world of the story, why are they there? How is it conveying ideas or emotions? what are they meant to signify, how are they being shot (this may not mean a lot to others, but the way sexual scenes are shot can be extremely interesting, and not just because it's pleasurable)? To me, if they lack a certain 'depth', and feel as though they have been put in there without thought and just for the convenience of attracting an audience (without even attempting to understand their potential and appeal) is when there is a problem. For instance, and here many may disagree with me, but I personally am quite fond of how the sexual scenes are shot in Love in the Air for the most part (without, of course, ignoring the show's other grey areas/flaws). They reflect the characters' mental state: for instance, the sex scenes in Love in the Air show us how Rain becomes more confident and comfortable with himself and his sexuality: the first sex scene shows how he is a lot more passive and cautious, whereas he is later shown to be "unexpectedly" dominant, self-assured, and playful. This narratively aligns with how he starts off by not being as responsible as he should be at university, and how he has trouble communicating clearly with other characters (causing misunderstandings) to him becoming gradually more responsible and gentle-mannered with others. The sexual scenes between Prapai and Sky are particularly fascinating because they deal with trauma, boundaries, memory, trust and agency in really poignant way. Trust is an important key word, specifically, as the first proper sex scene that we get between Prapai and Sky (after Prapai started taking care of Sky) revolves around it: the scene uses sex as a form of dialogue between the characters and reflects how Sky is opening up to Prapai in a truly vulnerable way but rather recklessly (as he still believes Prapai stays by his side for his own sexual urges), whereas Prapai is worried and wants to assure Sky that he cares for him beyond the need for sex (showcasing how he has changed too). Love in the Air is a series that I go back to a lot to always re-evaluate my thoughts on it because I find that even though it has been rightfully critisized for what it does poorly (in terms of representing SA or consent in some parts), I find that it has been poorly defined as one such story of "porn without plot", which I personally really disagree with. I really find that it's a story about maturity and responsibility, and learning how those aspects are key to a long-lasting and healthy relationship (or even just for yourself). In my opinion, it's one of the rarer BL series that actively and directly interrogate the notion and necessity of individual stability, boundaries and freedom prior to establishing a romantic bond, and what that entails (especially having the other love interest push for this first and foremost, and entering this conversation with the protagonist). Another shorter example that comes to mind is a scene from the bl series, Twins (2023). Honestly, the plot was rather meek and wasn't executed very well at all, making it a rather dull and offbeat story but it had some small strengths that other BLs that were airing at the time didn't have. One of them was indeed a scene where we see the start of a sex scene play out: the characters kiss and we see the camera then starting to pan away from them, indicating that there will be a cut away from the scene where the sex will be implied. Instead, one of the characters (who is drunk) breaks the fourth wall, by physically reaching out to the 'invisible camera' to reposition it toward them and scolding at it to stay still. The scene literally ends a few seconds later, so it's not like we see much more of the sex scene (it remains implied) but it's such a clever moment that subverts the clichés of how sex scenes are usually shot, and ties in well with the character's state of mind (somewhat drunken, and successfully comedic as the other character looks hilariously confused). It just makes you think that much more of the world and its characters based on one detail. So I find that they can be quite pivotal. On the other hand, I was really quite invested in the plot of Pit Babe but sorely disappointed in the sex scenes: they're more explicit than the latter example for sure and less than the former (so again, it's not about explicitness or frequency, as they appear just as often as LITA) but they feel, most of the time, quite empty. Not always though (i do like some moments in them), but they can come across as quite shallow and are shot in a frustrating way in my opinion (promising more but offering less). But yeah, the idea of using sex as dialogue is something that I notice a lot, especially in a lot of japanese bl series. In my experience, that's why japanese bl series are most adept, more commonly, at using sex through narrative in a way that doesn't cheaply water it down to something 'unnecessary' or problematic. Another thing that intrigues me is how sex scenes function in BL as compared to other heterosexual romances, because they can experiment with certain plotlines that other heterosexual romances may not due to how the latter are more tightly bound by heteronormative constructs. I'll leave it there as my comment is atrociously long, but hopefully any of what i said could be food for thought. If anyone read this, thanks a lot for the patience and i'd love to hear your thoughts ^^
Great points brought up. I know when there was the Korean BL survey going around, the written comments there were very interesting. Acting also ranked low there, NC did rank high but a lot of the written comments were about wanting couple intimacy(skinship, kissing) not necessarily NC. I have noticed an increase in posts/comments about KBL’s being very safe/chaste and blame being put on the actors in an aggressive manner and demands that are quite entitled which seems misguided as I believe there is a huge lack of understanding about the culture…. It’s kind of obvious that they don’t watch Kdramas. For me story/acting and chemistry between the pairs are the most important. When I have it all, I’m happy. NC scenes like in Warp Effect, fit the tone of the story and was educational and I really enjoyed it. I grew up in an era with Queer As Folk (US) which was groundbreaking at the time as gay men were seen as Asexual. Having more creators like Jojo to showcase and represent the community is the right way to go in BL imo.
TBH I went to Bl through the stories that showed couples who were discovering their own sexuality and who they are, it was never about NC scenes. However, being a fan of BL for a while I have noticed that recently Thai Bl start to concentrate more on that aspect (NC) rather than the plot. Korean and Japanese Bl's work on the plot rather than NC scenes which leaves a lot to the audience's imagination and that is great as it leaves us hanging there and rooting for the couples, one kiss in the end confirming their feeling can be amazing! I agree with you BL become massive recently and if actors are not careful they will not develop their skills and will be used for profit, or tarnish their reputation if BL is only NC. There is a lot that BL industry needs to learn as well as the audience. BL is not only NC and it shouldn't be, there meant to be a representation of a discovery of, emotions, sexuality & relationships. I get we want different think but I want BL to flourish and be respected for the value that some of them present.
It's crazy cause as much as ppl voted for more Nc scenes where are those ppl when Nc driven shows flopped. Check out, Big Dragon, Unforgettable night were big ones that had good hype especially after Kinnporsche did well and was done well. But the plot/acting/cringe Nc no matter how many Nc there were it did not save the shows. The acting and how its shot for the NC really does matter and effects your enjoyment which I don't think those ppl who voted really thought about. It's a more new development but bls can no longer bank on NC for a hit. The amount of bdsm just randomly added fo shows& then highlighted in the promo is hilarious cause most of the time its done poorly and is barely brought up again when you assume it was a plot point from the trailer. And even after all that half assed effort its not recieved well cause its bad. It is a little frightening to see how many small companies are just adding any NC without any effort to make it good in their pilots. It hasn't hit ppl yet that if Nc are done badly it wont save them.
Great video! Love the entire discussion. I personally voted for better writing and acting. I can watch a show with no NC scenes and as long as it's written well and acted well I never even care. When it does come to NC scenes, as long as it makes sense in the development of the character or relationship, then I don't really care how little or too many NC scenes a drama has.
I've been analysing my relationship with BL content for quite some time now, so this is a very interesting topic for me, trying to figure out the whys to my whats. I'm no stranger to the pwp genre, if you've been around any online fandom long enough it's inevitable. I have zero issue with written pwp, I enjoy it if it's well-written. But i do have mixed feelings when I see it on the screen, and I think the main reason is this underlying fear that the actors have been pushed too far. I am always, ALWAYS aware of the potential for abuse, even power abuse from the directors/producers, especially when it comes to young actors not knowing where to set the boundary and how to enforce their own safe space. This is what I mostly think about during those super racy scenes. And when I see them replayed over and over in fanvids and reels, there seems to be a clear reason why they were included (more promotion) and why people obsess over them (fetishisation). It's not about the sex itself for me, it's about everything else around those scenes that's a bit icky. I appreciate a good nc scene, no problem there, as long as I feel like it's a creative choice and it exists for other reasons than marketing. And I honestly feel like reading a 2k word pwp is a different thing than having to watch it for 10 episodes, if you know what I mean. It makes sense if it's an insert, a side story to the main thing, but I could never keep my interest if it's 10 hours of mostly sex and not much plot to account for.
To be fair tho, I am asexual and there are some situations when if things get heated in the wrong way (wrong for me, not objectively wrong), it gets uncomfortable. So my perspective is probably skewed by that and not at all representative of a larger majority.
Moon, I watch BL's to have something that I didn't have when I was growing up: community 🏳️🌈. I'm living my 2nd adolescence right now and it is intoxicating. I live in very conservative Texas. I never thought I'd live to see these days. I Came Out when I was 36 and I feel 16 and safe now. 🇺🇸🏳️🌈🤝🇵🇭🏳️⚧️🌝 To address your question: I love a spicy scene, but it's better when the couple have a romance truly built up and it's not gratuitous and it's just two boys flesh on flesh. I need them to be in love and not in lust.
Its just very hard nowadays to see a bl with the right amount of good plot and nc scenes. When the plot is too bland, the writers tend to push the actors for a more steamy scenes for clicks. When the plot is too focused, most watchers look for nc scenes. For all the bls i have wstched, venus in the sky takes the cake of being too porny. It wasted so much potential from the great casts
I love how you always discuss your topic in such nuanced ways, for me personally, plot is probably the most important aspect, quickly followed by chemistry then acting. I'd rather appreciate a great plot with good chemistry than anything nc any day (nothing against it, I just simply don't think I'm of age and I'm not really interested in nc, I think it has taken me really long time of watching BLs in general to destigmatize it and realize it's not that deep if someone enjoys it or not, what I do fear is the exploitation of actors ESPECIALLY MINORS as we've seen in the past and obviously the pwp)
The only thing I'm going to disagree on is when you said 'pride is a celebration'. It should be a protest. In Europe and the US we're doing some pretty terrifying backsliding of gay and trans rights and acceptance right now, so it's REALLY not a time to celebrate here, and while I think that is probably different in most of Asia, it's not as if Asian countries don't have any qu33r rights left to fight for.
For me no. 1 on the list is actors who are able to play, who are talented and skilled, above all. NC scenes are not a must. For an NC to be good in my book there has to be chemistry between the characters and their relationship needs to be compelling cause otherwise what is the point. I didn't enjoy a lot of series with NC scenes because they felt like the only reason they created that series. At the same time there were others were the chemistry was so good that it made my shy, like I was intruding on a real couple, haha.
NC scenes are fine but should be contextually and logically consistent to plotlines. And i also feel like such scenes are getting worse because there's so much absence of intimacy and semsuality in NCs. It feels more like a reckless desensitized experience that has no real connection between characters. Sex positivity is important but not random and unnecessary sex that has no particular purpose. Of course, the concept of "gay for pay" has went too far. The older i get, the more apolitical i get. I witnessed several dilemmas and complexities of so-called "rainbow capitalism." Don't get me wrong, It is hurtful to exploit the community but we can't deny that we still live in a capitalist society where it is required to have entertainments with MONEY. Actors have their jobs. We have our own careers. Does it mean we are exploiting our talents, ideas, skills etc.? It is kind of naive to believe that we magically can get better out of nowhere without everything that exists within capitalistic sources. We can advocate against it but not with naivety. We must be realistic.
You have a lot of good points in this video about sex possitivity etc. I don't mind BLs with NC scenes, as long as the story in itself is good and the acting is good and it doesn't feel like, the BL is mostly made to show NC scenes(context/intention), and BLs doesn't have to have NC scenes to be a good BL. Showing other types of affecting than just two people going at it in bed ( for example subtle sweet moments, having fun together etc.) can often work better, I think.
This is a well thought out video. Some scenes really are gratuitous but it really does seem to be a case by case basis. Context in and out of the show is key. (though as an Australian viewer my context often comes fro channels like yours)
As long as no actor is being exploited I think that there’s space for all of it. Even porn without plot like Checkout. There’s always been that type of media so, as you stated, it’s not unique to BL. As the industry continues to grow, different bl’s will fall into different spaces. It’s up to the consumer to choose their preference. The only time I’m a bit taken aback is when there is a particularly intense NC scene in a show that really didn’t have that vibe. In Big Dragon it’s okay because that was the tone they set at the start. But there was one at the end of Destiny Seeker that seemed a bit unnecessary. It was hot, but random. In those moments I’m taken out of the experience because it feels exploitative. Not sure if that makes sense. Lol..
It makes perfect sense. And I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said. Great thing about capitalism is that ultimately, if there's a demand, there'll be a supply. The market for BL is huge, and people in it have a whole spectrum of tastes and preferences, so there really is no need to police what types of shows get made. Just make sure that the show is well acted, well shot, well produced, give it an appropriate rating, and then let adults enjoy their porn without plot if they so please.
I was disappointed for Check out because many bl series don't include dark skinned actors. For one of the main leads to be brown side complexion wise, I was happy for this series. Filipino bls have definitely not shied away from hiring brown skin actors or more feminine actors as main leads. But most of those series dont have longevity. In a lot of thai dramas there often in the background or the criminals. I bring that up because it fits into the topic. When you see actors who have a NC scene that's a natural progression of the show and not the surrounding polt. Often times the actors who are chosen they are often very lightskin. That also sends a message as well. I think company's gave the fans what many voiced. Its the reason why I didnt watch a lot of bls. I almost checked out because many had no story lines and if they did they were about School dramas. While i get the younger audience I believe series have to grow with their audience as well. More stories with actors who can act and more character development. More series that don't deal with characters at school.
Thank you for your vid....there can never be too many NC scenes...even though I loved I will knock you ....I loved Love in the air. I love all things BL🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰
I really appreciate your look on certain matters and that's the reason I really enjoyed watching your videos. They really teach me to look things from a slightly new perspective and also the amt of research and sincere efforts you put into each one of this video is really commendable. U deserve my respect for this. Hoping to hear u soon in your next video.
Does no one remember Queer As Folk? Maybe this generation doesn't know it. But this is a debate that goes way back. Seems like there should be room for all sorts of plots, stories, and options. For sure the genre needs some new ideas. I think maybe there's the idea of who is the target audience for a particular show. But moving beyond chaste HS and university storylines is a good thing.
Hi! I love how you make detailed videos. If possible can you please cover build jakpan issue from the very start cause there has been a lot of misinformation allegations and what not .
Please do a video on the source material upon which BL series are based, poor adaptations, and the need to read the source material to understand the BL series. Thanks in advance.
Thank you I agree with everything you mentioned in your video. I personally have zero problem with NC scenes in BL's but I prefer a good story and having actors, being them seasoned or rookie that can actually act is a must for me to enjoy the series. But that's just my opinion only. Unfortunately there are always going to be people that exploit things for their own means but it feels like most BL's have been very positive. I really hope countries like Thailand get their marriage equality and legal rights and if the growing BL popularity can be a small step in helping that happen well that's incredible and i'm all for it.
I have so many thoughts on this. I've watched a lot of gay media from all over the world, but I've never been so involved in the fandom as I have with modern BLs so this conversation is both interesting and really creepy at times. My biggest concern is are the actors safe in portraying these scenes. I don't just mean on set, at fan meets and in social media/ online as well. There are times when I watch scenes that I get a little concerned for the actors. The split in fandom of people liking the NC scenes but being homophobic in RL is mystifying to me. I want to watch something that is well crafted: good writing, acting, production. I don't like or enjoy porn and I don't want to watch young actors having to portray it for a paycheck (also I'm older so it's really creepy if I did). I don't mind the spice, but I really love the cute, slow build, well written, all about the relationship dramas. I adore 2gether, in my head cannon it's about a man realizing he's Bi as he falls for a gay man, so the lack of spiciness makes sense as he gay panics every other day. Also as "we" learned in Warp Effect not every gay man likes certain bits of intimacy. (I adore that drama for Thor's portrayal of Jo.) I do also like Love in the Air that seems very spicy, but we never see anything the actors are just very good at physical gesturing. I don't watch romance in "straight" dramas, I did watch Bridgerton & was scandalized by the NC scenes. I told my friends it was like a culture shock. The non BL Thai dramas have have enjoyed are either scifi or thrillers, so not much romance in shows like Bad Guys or Remember Me.
For me... I prefer quality entertainment or the NC scenes. If anything, the NC scenes are just bonuses to me. Its the slow burn and build up for me. I want the NC scenes to feel natural UNLESS theres an aspect of the plot that indicates that there will be NC scenes that are suppose to lack a sense of mental and emotional intimacy between the couple. If the NC scenes only focus on the physical intimacy between the couple - then its just another scene to watch for me and I'll either fast forward the scene or be distracted by soemthing in real life, like my phone or grabbing something to eat until the next scene plays. Ive gotten use to watching Queer media that had no NC scenes of any kind to straight up Queercoding and nothing else. (Unless it was on HBO and it was titled 'Queer As Folk', what a wild show 😅) Im also Ace so that could be an excuse for why I dont care for too many (and somewhat explicit) NC scenes in BL. I want desire and not just lust. If that makes sense. One of my favorite Thai BL series is 'Lovely Writer'.❤ The quiet momets between the leads and the serious conversations that were brought up throughout the drama - left a deep impression in my heart. One of the most memorable scenes for me was the dinner with the main leads parents. The topic of BL shows being a 'trend' in Thai media and the topic of legalizing Same-Sex marriage in Thailand came up. All the while there were NC scenes that felt natural bcuz the writing and cinematography had a great build up to those moments. Loved the video and I loved to see clips of the Pride parade from Thailand! Taiwan is the first but they wont be the only place to legalize Same-sex marrigae and Gay rights in Asia! 🎉🙏🏽
Just saying every comment on a series with no 18+ nc scenes are all complaining which I would say is disrespectful to the actors who are not comfortable to film these intense scenes. Yet actors are praised for filming these scenes. There is nothing wrong with enjoying these scenes, but it is sometimes just straight up sexualising gay men / couples. I don’t want to say this because I know how easily woman Bl fans are offended, but woman will never know what it is like to be a gay man they need to calm down especially when they call the scenes realistic, because I am 100% sure they are just not.
Also it’s kind of hypocritical to call out a straight man for sexualising lesbian couples but woman do the exact same but with gay men couples. I know not every woman is like this which I am glad. But as a reminder, you are the female version of those male gl fans, none of this is wrong as long as you are not sexualising or fetishising. I would also like to apologise for any english spelling mistakes I used.
Very astute, especially with the issues of purity culture. i want to ask these people what makes 2gether better because it lacked NC intimacy? and I definitely don't think its a worse series because it lacked NC scenes.
I think the issue is not the NC scenes themselves but how they are handled. I think there’s just the right amount of spicy BLs (and sweet BLs) - but you need to be an informed watcher. I try not to support shows that feel like they are just using actors and the spice to make money.
There are shows in the west that also suffer because of poor writing, acting, directing etc. they also have very explicit shows that seem to have no plot. I think of BLs the same way.
I think Big Dragon was unfairly placed in with Check Out. If people actually watched more than just the trailer they would have seen there was a plot, good acting, and care shown to the subject matter. The NC scenes were not the driving force of the plot. My girlfriend and I used to watch BL together and she preferred not to see heavy NC scenes as she worried about exploitation of BL actors. As she is a gay woman from Thailand and big sister to a former TPOP trainee from a big media company (some companies have been known to recruit BL actors from among their trainees). I tend to listen to her concerns on this. However many of the comments I see on that homophobic purity trash are from straight women . It’s so telling that the person I’ve seen get the heaviest criticism before the series even comes out, is an out gay man. He’s gotten even more hate on his social media than the company who put out Check Out. 😒🤦🏾♀️ Yes I am side eyeing BL fans. There is absolutely criticism that can be given to certain BLs, whose creators just wanted to make softcore porn. I think this is a discussion that can’t be had without gay men.
I am a prodigiously fornicating, porn enjoying flamboyantly homosexual queer. And I loathe the excessive sex scenes in BLs lately. It is solely because of the Heart. I dove into BLs completely in 2016 because they WEREN'T western style angst-and-sex self indulgences. I fell in love with how they fall in love and focus on the expression of and the experience of the Heart, in the characters and in the audience. It's their provenance and they did it better than the West IMHO. I want stories that make me well up and sometime scry but that get me in the heart. I can get something for my groin on other website just fine, but touching my heart with a story about same sex love is much rarer to me and I prize it. as you said, the new focus on sex scenes 1) makes poor writing and 2) has diminished the splendid way the love scenes got me in the heart. Now it goes from "Awww" to "OK, TMI". There is nothing wrong with sex and gay sex and stories about gay sex. OnlyFriends did a great job portraying a slightly heightened version of real gay lives. The sex there was appropriate to that story. And it didn't linger for the sake of attracting eyeballs. The romance in Together was just lovely and I didn't need prolonged sex scenes to feel the love. They DID show enough to tell the story that they did have an active sex life. I didn't need to see it all, because I was enchanted by the story of the love, the feelings, the acts of kindness and emotional intimacy. BL has til now been champion at showing those. Sex is too easy to use to create a sensation and it's everywhere else. Let this genre rule the Heart.
This video offers intelligent analysis on a fascinating, if subjective, topic. But I found myself craving more rigor in defining the titular parameters. First, the term "BL" is awfully nebulous in this discussion. BL exists in novels. In television. In movies. The bar for "too racy" varies according to the medium. Television producers simply have less discretion than book authors or movie makers when it comes to "going too far." Because so many BL series originate as adaptations from novels, e.g., from source material steamier than they could ever be, it was worth taking a moment to acknowledge the potential dissonance created by the adaptation process. And that the source material influences expectations for a significant chunk of the viewing audience. Given the prominence in the discussion to satisfying viewer preferences, recognizing the gap between literary "too racy" and televised "too racy" strikes me as a worthwhile point. Second, it is difficult to pinpoint "too racy" without a baseline for "acceptably racy." Even if we stipulate that the discussion limits itself to "television" series, the standard for "too racy" will shift with variables. Relevant ones include the hour of broadcast, which influences "who is watching?"; and, even more importantly, who has the means to receive transmission. Whether the signal is free over-the-air (broadcast television), a subscription service (cable television or premium cable), or a streaming service (subscription also) helps determine an appropriate line for steamy content. And, of course, BL is a phenomenon that transcends national boundaries, so that the moment when "acceptably racy" becomes "too racy" plays out differently from culture to culture. To discuss the topic as if all BL is the same or a single standard would fit every production sacrifices a bit of nuance. Here, I felt the absence of that nuance.
To me it doesn't matter as long as the plot is interesting and the acting is amaizing. Also there dramas with no NC scenes which were actually good like My School President which was okay for me too .
I'm happy watching a bl with not even a kiss what so ever. But I think people like to see more 18+ scenes in bl, because sex is a normal thing that happens between two adults, which is why people want to see it more normalized in shows instead of it being shamed by other. I don't know just my opinion (P.S. I am not trying to offend anyone.
I think my opinion might be a bit different, since I'm 40, and live in Scandinavia 😅 if I want to watch male on male pr0n, I watch that. I can access any pr0n within seconds if I want to. So I don't watch BL for the sex. Or the plot most of the time, since it's usually something I have seen 100 times before (the Bad guy/frienemy dynamic). But I also know that not everyone have that. I know that gay relationships are still illegal in places, and the stigma around it. Not everyone can get hold of pr0n. To much sex scenes will get me to loose interest, because I don't want to have to watch pr0n. No matter what kind. I don't blame any actor in those BL, the ones that are doing the misrepresentation är the companies. And ofcourse not all across who plays gay characters are gay. Not even in gay pr0n are all the dudes actually gay. A lot of gay people have played straight and visa versa, For me it's simple; no matter what, there have to be consent, actors should feel safe and comfortable. And it disturbs me watching a show I know that real harm was done. So I'm all in for the Intimacy coordinator becoming a thing. Protect the actors, let people be who they want to be, love who they want to love. Simple as that.
I have nothing against NC scenes in bl but most bls I've seen that have too many steamy scenes, usually don't have good acting and interesting storyline. It's almost like they only care too please an specific group of people. I feel like It's possible to have a story that has NC scenes and good acting and storyline at the same time
You have to get a production company, director, and screenwriters to all be on the same page when it comes to creating series that do have those scenes.
Me, personally, I’ve always felt uncomfy watching sex scenes in any media, and unfortunately a handful of my first BLs that I watched had noncon scenes which added to the uncomfortableness, so I tend to avoid shows that advertise it as the main selling point. What can I say, I’m a sucker for cheesy, fluffy romance. But it’s not a bad thing to like steamy romances, and I will watch it if it fits within the context of the story (and NC scenes aren’t randomly thrown in just because). I haven’t watched any new BL in a while cause it seemed a lot of them advertised the sex aspect than a story, the only new shows I’m watching rn being Step By Step & Naked Dining (loving them btw 🫶🏼). Been thinking about this for a while so I’m really glad you made a video talking about it!
To be honest: the BL series I like most are the ones with a good plot, good acting and good NC scenes - all combined. 😂 I'm ok if there are only few NC scenes (or almost none at all), like in "2gether", but the worst is to have a bad plot and bad acting or poorly written characters. An example: as much as I loved "Bed Friend", I hated the spin-off "Middleman's Love", because the characters were soooo bad. Not the acting, but the way they were written. On the other hand: at least in my case, good NC scenes can "save" a series with bad plot or bad acting/characters. The first BL series I ever saw was "Be Mine Superstar", with an average plot, some bad acting (guest roles) and the worst, in my opinion: Ja's role. Fortunately, there are many very good NC scenes in this series (and I also mean the acting), so I watched it 'til the end and it made me watch more series with JaFirst. Otherwise, my first impression about BL/Thai series would have been so bad that I wouldn't have kept watching them. Another example: "Playboyy", with bad acting and bad/confusing plot in the first episodes. I watched it because of the NC scenes and I'm happy I did: both the acting and the plot got better in the second half of the series. One thing that I love about the NC scenes in BL series (besides the obvious reason 😂) is something that I've never seen in series with heterosexual couples: they educate people. More than just showing "how to do it", in most BL series that I've watched they asked for consent, in some they show the characters using condoms, they talk about lubricants, ointment for "the day after" and aftercare. I think this is very important especially for younger gay people who haven't had their first sexual experiences yet.
Personally, I'm quite torn on this topic. If we just compare the suxual scenes in bl to Hollywood and other international productions depicting sexual relations between same-sex or straight coupling. Those scenes are still tame. And we can't forget that even not positive representation of sexuality can be important. The "good and the bad", when handled the right way, is contributing to the education on sexuality. Save sex, consent in any kind of sexual interaction and even the lack of the later can be presented in a way to draw awareness onto such topics. Also overly sexual depicted characters are a form of representation, and can be educational. There's nothing wrong with being less or more sexually active. My problem is, when there are no cohesive plotlines, that are more or less used as just a lead-in for the next sex scene. While we still have the problem of the bl industry lacking appropriate financial means to deliver high quality productions, I want there to be at least an feasiable intend, some plausible motives. On the topic whether straight or gay people play the roles, imo It comes down to fetishization of good looking same sex couples. It's where the regard to reality gets lost and some people would rather fantasize about heterosexual, same-sex couplings. A more healthy fan culture is what needs to be cultivated. Its why a healthy discourse is needed. But that's the same in every fandom of any business. We are the ones that can contribute greatly to a more healty mindset in the industry.
Cast and Actors who can act at 10% poll no wayy 😭 heres why Ive been into western and japanese BLs/Queer stories is because the acting sucks. Its shows lack of faith to the material and just pure spectacle if we dont give af about the acting omg 😭 whats the point anymore? we are losing the plot and sauce yall sex scenes isnt even the problem its the nothingness of the stories and half ass acting
I wasn't interested by BL stories on screen, before I started LITA. Honestly, I don't care about how many NC scenes, or if they are Sex Friends Couple whatever. Doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is: is it healthy? Do they treat each other well? If there is no abuse I'm down. I mostly enjoy seeing people loving each other and being happy. I'm tired of seing/reading stories about abusive couples. I loved LITA because of PayuRain relationship. While he did questionable things at the beggining, he is very supportive and caring and goes out of his way to communicate if there is any argument. And he doesn't let Rain neglect studies.
I think my issue with people complaining with NC scenes in BL, is that it feels as if people are trying to infantilize queer stories in order to make them more palatable for straight audiences
Exactly. Why do people say stuff like "it's about actual love, not just sex" as if sex isn't a completely normal and regular part of almost every romantic relationship ever? Unless you're somewhere on the asexuality spectrum, sex is just another way to express love and to deepen the bond between you and your partner. It's just a given in straight media, yet whenever there's anything even remotely physical in a queer story, suddenly everybody has a problem. 🙄
And also, let queer people have their "porn without plot" dramas too! We are practically drowning in oversexualized straight media, we deserve to have some made for us as well. Just let there be variety. Porn without plot. Cheesy romantic fluff that makes you wanna vomit sugar. Cutesy highschool comedies where holding hands is a big deal. Angsty tragedies about real-life problems. Dark thrillers full of violence. Wholesome relationships that give you butteflies. Toxic relationships that will make Killing Stalking pale in comparison. And everything in between. That way, the genre can only expand and grow and everyone can find something that suits their preferences and even their current mood, because c'mon, I can't be the only BL lover who will watch Cherry Magic or Keita Hatsukoi one day, and KinnPorsche the next day, right? 🤣
@@Eris_Norregard this 💯!
@@Eris_Norregard I am not sure if this comment was in regard something in the video (I am yet to watch the vid) but I don't think sex is anything bad or something, but I do think that *showing love as nothing but sex* is a problem because it results in most new gen ending up thinking that sex is love which is actually NOT true. If you have nothing in your relationship except sex, then there is issue. Sex is part of romantic love not the entirety of it!
PS: It is not argue or fight but just my opinion. There is a reason, new generation are more lonelier than previous one, coz of social media promoting the idea of sex being everything in relationship and the consuming younger audience, hence not finding a partner they can truly connect to but just who they are compatible with.
@@alesonu Yes! I wasn't sure what my opinion would be after watching the video, but i definitely agree with yours!
I honestly think the intention and context matters a lot. I agree that normalizing sex and showing positive depictions of queer sex is super important. And if a show is written to include a lot of NC scenes (like a FWB situation) and they fit into the context of the story, then it makes sense for that to be a large chunk of the show.. And I'm not gonna sit here and act like I don't enjoy a well-done NC scene when they come around. But it's frustrating when it feels like shows promote the hell out of NC scenes in their marketing only to offer nothing in terms of writing or plot once you actually get into the show. Makes it all feel hollow and that's when I can sometimes question the intentions of the production teams. Definitely a nuanced discussed and one that's different for each individual show. Also yes to more sex education always!!!! Great discussion as always~
Agree with everything you said here
I feel like you should dive deeper into fetishism vs appreciation aspect because as a gay man I see it a lot in online forums and when I call it out people are like "you should be thankful because without our (straight female) support, you wouldn't get anything."
That's harsh how can someone say that. Btw I agree with you
I mean you're not wrong, but ultimately it's futile trying to police other people's personal preferences or "fetishes". People like what they like. Of course these likes are influenced by external factors many of which are problematic...but what are you going to do? Outside of BL there is no epidemic of straight women in any significant capacity objectifying gay men in any meaningful way. So what are we really talking about here? To what end are we having this conversation?
@@mg.5968 you have no idea. Lots of straight women fetishise gay men in real life. Even if it’s online only online, why would that be okay.
Online affects how we act in real life. It
okay if I spew hate online and then pretend I don’t in real life?
Do you even know what fetishisation means?
Excellent! For me it's far better with a plot and good actors, like "Bad Buddy" or "The Eighth Sense."
Same!
Thai BLs really really really to pull up their socks when it comes to acting. While the volume of Thai BLs is rising, the quality of acting is equally spiralling downwards. The last Thai BLs I watched with really good acting were 180 Degree Longitude Passes Through Us and Love Mechanics. Sadly, some fans seem content with the racy nsfw scenes which spike the viewership, but honestly, once I am done with those series, I don't even remember their names. That's how less of an impact they make.
For me, Japanese BLs will always rule supreme. I mean, the acting has always been on-point and it really doesn't matter if they do not bang on-screen, the intensity is conveyed through their acting. And that's what I want- quality. Korean BLs are getting there with the acting and doing a brilliant job. I really hope the Thai BL industry starts focusing more on making the actors 'act' besides the smut.
My problem with BLs nowadays is that the sex scenes get better but the acting and the story get worse. They're just selling sex instead of telling good stories about queer culture and as a gay man, I cannot support these kinds of shows.
As you mentioned, my biggest concern is that the actors aren't being exploited. I don't mind gratuitous sex or even the "porn without plot" shows, if the actors are comfortable and they understand the choices they made then I'm cool with it. Better sex scenes would also be appreciated, make it more accurate and educational. We still have so far to go with consent, lube, and safe sex.
Also, I HATE that comedic bit where the bottom's ass is so sore that walking, sitting, etc. is painful the next day or sometimes for multiple days after the sex. If that's happening then the sex you're having is way too rough or rushed or improperly prepared. Like we never get proper exploration of people who like rougher sex and enjoy that pain, or even an exploration of what happens when we don't get comprehensive and inclusive sex ed and how that can harm (LGBTQIA+) people in their first sexual encounters, but you do wanna imply that rough and painful sex for weird comedy?
Yes on the better scenes. I have realized I often zone out and start to focus on all the things I would make BL scenes better in 😅 like better lighting, better props etc.
But I'm on the opposite side on the bottom in pain skit, I haven't seen that in many shows. Mostly they have their scene and jumps up afterwards like nothing happend. Must been a sad experience if you are not even a little bit in pain after seggsytime 😂😅
why does entertainment have to be educational? it's entertainment not edutainment, anyone watching a bl with nc scenes should be old enough to have gone through a sex ed class in school or be capable of finding their own educational resources online
The term "gay for pay" has no place in a discussion about drama series. Actors are hired to create characters, not to play themselves. An actor who takes a job playing a gay character is an actor for pay, not gay for pay. That expression originated to describe street hustlers and transferred later to porn models.These careers fall under the sex worker label because straight hustlers and straight porn models _have actual sex for money_ with the client or with other paid performers. "Gay for pay" is no metaphor in those careers: it's a literal description of what they do. Professional acting is something else. Even when a scene involves nudity, body contact, and kissing, the "action" in a drama series is illusory. Equivalent to sex work? No! No! No!
Good actors will choose projects that challenge their acting chops. For example, a script that features solid plotting to rivet the viewer's attention, a meaty character arc to test the actor's range, and dialog that sparkles to test their line delivery will attract actors who want _to act_ and be good at that. If they don't see those elements in a script, they are more likely to pass on the project. Who will take these jobs? Actors (good or bad) in need of a payday. Actors (good or bad, but likely inexperienced) in need of a professional big break. Actors (bad) who cannot hope to win those better acting gigs. Hence, these plot-light, NC-heavy series often feature actors whose lack of skill sticks out like morning wood from a pair of boxers. In other words, there likely is a correlation between subpar acting and scripts that sacrifice story quality in favor incorporating more NC scenes. Same reason people joke about the "acting" that occurs in porn movies. Those _sex workers_ are not real actors at all. In closing, actors who play gay should NEVER get dissed by association with with street hustlers and porn models. Quite the reverse. Good on them for accepting a role playing a character stigmatized by the normative values of their home country.
I'm very much someone who places the importance of plot, acting, writing, and production over NC scenes. My top ten bl list includes a bl that literally has no kiss scenes (my love mix up) ranging all the way up to a very explicit bl. I like NC scenes as much as the next person, but I think they need to be done correctly, and have a well done show around them. I also think people need to be careful about supporting some of these p*rn without plot bls because you never know what's going on behind the scenes. I know 9NAA for one has been treating their actors like trash, and have been rather exploitive with them.
That being said, I'm so looking forward to only friends! I absolutely adore 3 will be free, and I also really enjoyed the warp effect, so my expectations for this show are very high. Plus the cast is great! We already know First and Khao can absolutely act the butts off, and I'm excited to see the other actors show off the range of what they can do as well.
I'm not against NC scenes, but I am against them existing for no valid reason. Like NC scenes for the sake of promotion/sexualization/exploitation as opposed to serving the plot and characters. I don't like the idea that BL is either "pure" or "porn without plot". I think both expectations are harmful, although there is nothing wrong with having many or not having any NC scenes.
Also, I really do appreciate some of the variety we are starting to get in NC scenes. Series that include things like kink and BDSM, FWB relationships, or other non-normative forms of sexual interactions feel like a breath of fresh air to me. It's boring and unrealistic to depict sexual intimacy as only romantic attraction straight to intercourse. So I appreciate variety, with (hopefully even more in the future) recognition that NC scenes don't need to be vanilla, romantic, or even include physical contact to be enjoyable. If these scenes are done well they can even be better while depicting non-normative and healthy interaction.
**This is all with the note that it only works when nobody, either on-camera or not, is being taken advantage of.
This is such an important topic in BL and after hearing about this poll I was wondering when you'd do a video on it.
I do understand the caution around potentially oversexualizing queer media. However, having lurked around bl twitter and reddit, I find it very telling that the people I most often see complaining about too much sex in BL are in usually not queer themselves (or at least not publicly so, which is of course something to consider). I'm sooooo sick of the pearl clutching whenever a show has even a drop of horniness, and the subsequent assumptions about the quality of the show which people make often before it's even been fully shot. The inclusion of sex in a story doesn't invalidate all other aspects of casting, production, writing, performance, etc. Letting characters show some skin and have a sex life doesn't automatically mean the writing or acting is going to be bad. Are some BLs leaning on sex appeal to grab attention? Absolutely. But this is not new or exclusive to BL, as you pointed out traditional dramas have been doing it for decades already. And if that's just not your cup of tea, if you can't or don't want to handle any spice, that's totally fine. Go to a potluck at a white midwestern church, grab a vanilla latte on your way home, sit down with a Korean or Japanese high school BL and have a grand ol time. Your favorite pinky touches and dead fish kisses aren't going anywhere just bc the field of available BLs is widening to include some spicier content. Adding extra spicy sauces to a menu doesn't mean you can't still have your unseasoned mashed potatoes if that's what you enjoy.
I think what really frustrates me the most is not just the hypocrisy of the pearl clutching, not just the homophobia of aiming these criticisms at BLs far more than at the plethora of straight media that uses the exact same sex-based marketing strategies; it's that they act as if all BL is getting spicier and there's nothing left for their poor vanilla palate. Which is just patently false. More tame shows aren't going away, and they will continue to get made. If you actually step back and look at BL overall (especially compared to more indie or mainstream western LGBTQ+ media) it's traditionally been very censored and sexless. I looked at Thai dramas on MDL w/ the LGBTQ+ tag (since there's no BL specific tag), sorted by most popular, and of the top 10 only KinnPorsche has anything actually graphic. Of the others in the top 10 where we know characters have sex, all we get to actually see is them making out with their shirts off, anything more than that is largely just implied and we cut to the morning after before the pants even come off. If you sort by top rated instead it's even more tame, and basically none of those top 10 were marketed on sex appeal at all. When we do get a BL that's a wonderfully sexy story of messy relationships, it's a drop in an ocean of closed mouth kisses and side hugs. We're frickin thirsty, just let us have this one drop. Yet some still act as if a handful of nc scenes spread out across a few shows are like some sort of plague tainting the BL pool, which is so damn stupid. What I think a lot of spice critics often overlook is how there are still shows that could have used sex appeal to gain views but kept the story and marketing on the tamer side anyways, not every show uses spice for attention even though it would likely boost views. Recent one that comes to mind is Love Mate, which implies that the characters hook up but we don't see anything beyond some kisses and they wake up the next day both fully clothed and fresh as daisies, even though there are swimming scenes in the show so we've seen both actors shirtless already and I'm sure the creators know that bl twitter could have exploded if they'd shown more skin during the moments of intimacy. Same for Our Dating Sim, one of the leads Lee Seung Gyu is not shy on his socials about being a brutally sexy gym rat, but they didn't use his physical sex appeal at all in the show, dressing him exclusively in baggy casual clothes that suited his character and keeping the physical affection plentiful and sincere but still on the sweet and pg side. Moonlight Chicken could have more than gotten away with being a lot steamier in parts than it was, there's plenty of other GMMTV shows that have taken that approach, but they only used just enough spiciness to serve the story.
The education aspect also gets glossed over a lot and I'm really glad you pointed it out. We need BL to address the realities of queer sex more directly, bc fantasy or not some viewers are going to learn about what to expect in queer sex from these shows. And there are plenty of ways of doing that without coming off as a cautionary after school special too. Like, I understand the worry about stds Uea had in Bed Friends, but I really didn't like how they overshadowed a simple routine std test with so much fear and anxiety. I can't believe I'm saying this, but TharnType actually handled this really well. They got tested together but didn't treat it like it was the end of the world, it was just a slightly inconvenient but very necessary followup to their encounter. And it served the characters too, bc once he knows they're both clean you can see some of the guilt and shame start to lift from Type's shoulders. But the day a BL plainly shows lube use or even just talks about the need for lube I'll jump for frickin joy bc I do not know how all these fictional boys are surviving their dry sex 😬
My problem with sex in BLs isn't the sex itself, but rather that it's always either or. You either have that soft BL where they barely even touch, and people consider that to be "just pure love". And on the other side, you have steamy scenes, with the couple(s) being focused on physical touch, which people label as "porn without plot".
I have no problem with both concepts, in itself. But rather the execution. It's always those two extremes, instead of mixing it.
When watching those "soft BLs", most of the time it lacks in physical touch. While I do love it when people explore the emotional side of love and show in what ways you can show you partner you love them without being hot in bed, those "soft BLs" feel like they're anxious of touching. Anxious that the fans might label as as "non-pure", as soon as the couple might share a bit of a longer hug or have bed-eyes or something.
And on the other hand, BLs which are focused on sex, lack in emotional connection. You get two actors, who are seen as hot & handsome by the majority, and let them make out and be hot together, and that's pretty much it. The writers don't put much love into writing the emotional scenes, but only want to deliver in good sex scenes.
And that is exactly the problem.
Love isn't just this or that. Sure, there are people who only experience sexual attraction and others who only experience emotional attraction. And these people are totally valid, but that's not how BL is marketed. If you market a series where the couple is supposed to be together physically and emotionally, yet only deliver one side, then that's not gonna work.
It's not difficult to include both sides of the coin. Take KinnPorsche, for example. While KP still focuses majorly on the physical side, it does also explore the emotional side more than other BLs. And it works. The actors deliver well for both sides, and mix it together perfectly. Just the writing needs to be worked on.
I'd want to have a series that has both "pure soft scenes" and "porn without plot", mixed together. Is it that hard to show a couple, who likes having sex, that they do deeply love each other, on the emotional level? And is it wrong for a couple, who loves each other deeply, without being very touchy publicly, to have hot bed scenes? They love to market hetero that way, so why not BLs too? Find a balance. It really isn't that difficult.
NC scenes show the best how good the actors are. Portraying strong emotions, crying, and solving issues actually don't have gender (for example, the scene from Between Us, where Win saves Team from drowning. Replace Team with a girl, will it change Win's reaction? No. Because it's not about Team being a boy. It's about Win's fear to lose the person he loves). But the way actors are not afraid to touch eo, kiss, hug, hold hands, etc can show that they are aware of the characters they play. Sometimes their unwillingness to kiss or hug their partner is so visible, that you just see and feel their disgust.
Honestly , after so many years of actors barely moving their mouths during kiss, i say this is a improvement!
It’s not a bad thing to watch and enjoy gay or straight NC scenes. But it is an issue if people reduce LGBTQ relationships only to sex because gays are already oversexualised! This is why people think it’s inappropriate for children to watch gay content because they immediately link it to sex. We still need cute, child-friendly gay shows! And plenty of them exist! We need diversity of LGBTQ stories. Sexy, romantic, cute, sad, action packed etc all of that is valid!
We shouldn’t demonise a good show just because it has a lot of sexy times in it! Sex sells. People are h*rny asf, we can’t change that. As long as you’re an adult, there’s nothing wrong with it, plot or no plot. If it’s a good time then enjoy it!
I have so many thoughts on this as a queer nonbinary ace person who loves to watch queer stories.
My primary complaint about physical intimacy in Thai shows is that it often feels exploitative of novice actors. Even if I'm immersed in the story, the moment they do anything that might be uncomfortable for an actor I wonder how the actors actually feel about it. I'm more comfortable watching more intimate acts that require less intimacy from the actors, than less intimate acts that are actually done by the actors, say simulated sex where the actors are mostly covered and barely touching versus two actors kissing in a shot that emphasizes the contact. This discomfort with real acts goes double for out of series stuff like events and social media fan service. This can be exacerbated by the idea that it's a character's first relationship because the character is somewhat uncomfortable and the actor may be uncomfortable and i have no certainty that the scene wasn't the result of coercion, even indirectly, of vulnerable young actors possibly in their first ever acting job.
Every scene serves multiple purposes. NC scenes exist in a spectrum of other purposes. It's when those other purposes are minimal (especially character development and plot) that it feels like its sole purpose is titillation. I have no problem with a show that's more sex than not if it's relevant to the plot and character development. If the plot features sex, then it makes sense to be a major aspect. And (most) relationships involve sex so it can be fine to include it, especially if it serves to further the relationship, flesh out their dynamics, or further develop one or more characters. I think "The Warp Effect" really focused on NC scenes for character or plot reasons, while also serving the message/purpose of normalizing it as an aspect of adult life. TV series have plots. If there is no real plot, then it's porn. But NC scenes don't automatically make it porn. But we should really ensure that actors are being respected.
I have no problem with "Only Friends" because it's just "Friendzone" but with a group of queer guys (and I hope we're past saying it's unrealistic for a friend group to be mostly or entirely queer; friend groups are based on emotional bonds, not population demographics) (Also, I trust Jojo in general to have less superficial queer depictions than some shows, though Aof is the best at that to me. They're friends and collaborators and they both have really thoughtful things to say about making a show, story construction, and queer lives).
I have so much more I could say. This is a topic I've thought about pretty much since I found any queer media to watch starting about fifteen years ago.
Agreed. Another topic that I think would be good to address is a recent trend I see where people make sweeping and denigrating generalizations about Thai dramas, saying that they are ALL inferior to Korean and Japanese dramas. Personally I think that's kinda rac!st, but I've really been seeing a whole hecking lot of it lately. 'Thai sh!t' seems to be the commonly accepted term for all Thai media now.
This argument is often paired with the 'Thailand only does it for the s3x scenes' critique. I'm sure for some dramas that's true (which is fine), but like... go watch Triage and then tell me that you're still coming away with the same conclusion.
Thank you! Yes, Thai BLs have a range from really bad to really good. Just like any other
omg i thought that it’s only me. that’s why i gravitate towards Korean BLs more lately because they have softer tones, tho some of the book-based ones are a let down due to censorship, by which scenes are taken out, like as simple as a kiss?! 😩
Yes! * Looks at the Only Friends series
I'm all for sex positivity in bl as long the story is good as well!
re: only friends, i really hope they don't sanitize it just because of backlash (ofc as long as the plot is good). i'll be honest, i skip a lot of those scenes just because nc and i don't gel all that well. but as someone who's mlm who keeps seeing self proclaimed fujoshis with a savior complex talking about nc scenes and how it ruins gay rep, i'm very very tired.
bloop! i'm sorry it just gives homophobia. and a lot of these same ppl love kbl (not a problem, i do too) where there is more often than not, little to no intimacy! forget NC scenes, i just mean intimacy, period. and they will act like that is not due in large part to homophobia in korea overall, and in their rating system.
Happy Pride!
Thank you for your energy and effort in putting out this deep dive video on this topic. We all appreciate your efforts.
I don't think BL is becoming too racy. I think we are seeing an expansion of the stories and topics we didn't see in 2016. When exploring a place we've not previously been (or not been to often) we may see some fails or some misses. Things that make us cringe and ask WHY? Why did they do that? How could they do that?
No one in any industry is trying to purposefully fail and miss the mark (not even the ones in it for a money grab). Sometimes when writers see xyz plot line or scene worked for this book/drama/series/movie they run to include it in their work in the hopes of having a similar success. That rush to get it to market quickly can mean a lack of careful planning and increases the odds of something missing the mark.
It really is wild to see the same issues the MM Romance Community in the west have experienced cycle through the BL Industry. The rush to throw in sex scenes because they sold well was out of control. Only a few got it wasn't the sex scenes but the connection most of the readers/watchers crave.
Each and every scene should move the plot forward if it doesn't why is it there? Someone's relationship with sex & sexual relations can tell an incredible amount about a person. Sex is a way to show connection, love, resolution, or just characters having fun (> but we should be finding out more about them through the scene fun or not).
I don't think there's a cut off of what's too racy. I think it depends on the characters & the story that determine what is too much.
I'm glad there's a variety of BL with various levels of smexy goodness.
((It's interesting when people complain about not getting realism and then someone gives it to them > just not the way they want and they are even more unhappy. The reality is there are messy groups of friends who have sex and are all tangled up and for others it's unheard of... No one is right or wrong > except when we judge this interaction as "bad" when it is clearly some people's experience even if it's not your own.))
Many hugs, Z. Allora
I consider myself a bit of a slacker when it comes to be a BL fan, mainly because I’m not on social media that much. I like BL because it gives me new perspectives about lgbtqia+ stories. And a lot can be said of how much you respect the community by the care and way you deliver these stories. Like are they accurate to the queer experience? Like issues, consent, hopes etc? And sex is also part of it.
Is there too much NC scenes nowadays? That depends on what type of story it is.
I don’t prioritize NC when it comes to BL or any type of production, they’re only there to enhance the experience. My main priority is the story and that doesn’t only include plot. That’s just the order of the events that makes the story. What about the other elements that are part of those BL?
For example Big Dragon(BD) is often accused of having no plot, something that I agree but that is due to the poor source material. And that’s where I think the problem lies with most of these BL productions. Yet by just saying that BLs like BD have no plot and just stop at that can seem a little dismissive of all the work the people involved put into that production. And the fact the fans vote for more NC scenes than the other story elements proves my point. Yes, in BD the plot wasn’t good but there’s some specific creative choices, mainly directing cinematography that delivered a stunning visual storytelling. Even the NC scenes were well choreographed, good acting and the lighting was on point. And the score… the score during these scenes… perfect.
Another example is KP, and an unpopular opinion btw, I hated KP’s plot, especially the end, but I cannot deny the production masterpiece that KP is.
But of course there’re BLs that unfortunately fail in all these elements. And is not only the BL industry that is like this. Then why would it give us a bad rep? Do we have to fit in a tiny purity box so we can be accepted by the straights? 🙄
So I guess I agree with you, it’s a very complex and nuanced topic that not only involved the companies, cast and production crews but the audience and how we see the lgbtqia+ community, sex, etc.
My personal take on this is that the amount (excess or lack of thereof) of sex scenes in a particular given media isn't the issue, so much as the quality and narrative function of the scenes themselves. I feel like so much attention is placed on the notion of sex itself and its historical and cultural associations (as you also nicely mention yourself in regards to sex positivity). I look at it from the angle of: ok, sex scenes are become relied upon more and more to attract an audience, and the way it's being done matters (linking back to your idea of exploitation). So, if we were to replace the key word 'sex' with 'gardening' (or any other word you can think of) for instance, it would be the same issue. If gardening scenes are permeating series and taking up so much screen time, but they're not being used efficiently, don't add or reflect the characters' developments or characterisation itself, not adding to the worldbuilding or sense of space of the world of the story, why are they there? How is it conveying ideas or emotions? what are they meant to signify, how are they being shot (this may not mean a lot to others, but the way sexual scenes are shot can be extremely interesting, and not just because it's pleasurable)? To me, if they lack a certain 'depth', and feel as though they have been put in there without thought and just for the convenience of attracting an audience (without even attempting to understand their potential and appeal) is when there is a problem.
For instance, and here many may disagree with me, but I personally am quite fond of how the sexual scenes are shot in Love in the Air for the most part (without, of course, ignoring the show's other grey areas/flaws). They reflect the characters' mental state: for instance, the sex scenes in Love in the Air show us how Rain becomes more confident and comfortable with himself and his sexuality: the first sex scene shows how he is a lot more passive and cautious, whereas he is later shown to be "unexpectedly" dominant, self-assured, and playful. This narratively aligns with how he starts off by not being as responsible as he should be at university, and how he has trouble communicating clearly with other characters (causing misunderstandings) to him becoming gradually more responsible and gentle-mannered with others. The sexual scenes between Prapai and Sky are particularly fascinating because they deal with trauma, boundaries, memory, trust and agency in really poignant way. Trust is an important key word, specifically, as the first proper sex scene that we get between Prapai and Sky (after Prapai started taking care of Sky) revolves around it: the scene uses sex as a form of dialogue between the characters and reflects how Sky is opening up to Prapai in a truly vulnerable way but rather recklessly (as he still believes Prapai stays by his side for his own sexual urges), whereas Prapai is worried and wants to assure Sky that he cares for him beyond the need for sex (showcasing how he has changed too). Love in the Air is a series that I go back to a lot to always re-evaluate my thoughts on it because I find that even though it has been rightfully critisized for what it does poorly (in terms of representing SA or consent in some parts), I find that it has been poorly defined as one such story of "porn without plot", which I personally really disagree with. I really find that it's a story about maturity and responsibility, and learning how those aspects are key to a long-lasting and healthy relationship (or even just for yourself). In my opinion, it's one of the rarer BL series that actively and directly interrogate the notion and necessity of individual stability, boundaries and freedom prior to establishing a romantic bond, and what that entails (especially having the other love interest push for this first and foremost, and entering this conversation with the protagonist).
Another shorter example that comes to mind is a scene from the bl series, Twins (2023). Honestly, the plot was rather meek and wasn't executed very well at all, making it a rather dull and offbeat story but it had some small strengths that other BLs that were airing at the time didn't have. One of them was indeed a scene where we see the start of a sex scene play out: the characters kiss and we see the camera then starting to pan away from them, indicating that there will be a cut away from the scene where the sex will be implied. Instead, one of the characters (who is drunk) breaks the fourth wall, by physically reaching out to the 'invisible camera' to reposition it toward them and scolding at it to stay still. The scene literally ends a few seconds later, so it's not like we see much more of the sex scene (it remains implied) but it's such a clever moment that subverts the clichés of how sex scenes are usually shot, and ties in well with the character's state of mind (somewhat drunken, and successfully comedic as the other character looks hilariously confused). It just makes you think that much more of the world and its characters based on one detail. So I find that they can be quite pivotal. On the other hand, I was really quite invested in the plot of Pit Babe but sorely disappointed in the sex scenes: they're more explicit than the latter example for sure and less than the former (so again, it's not about explicitness or frequency, as they appear just as often as LITA) but they feel, most of the time, quite empty. Not always though (i do like some moments in them), but they can come across as quite shallow and are shot in a frustrating way in my opinion (promising more but offering less). But yeah, the idea of using sex as dialogue is something that I notice a lot, especially in a lot of japanese bl series. In my experience, that's why japanese bl series are most adept, more commonly, at using sex through narrative in a way that doesn't cheaply water it down to something 'unnecessary' or problematic. Another thing that intrigues me is how sex scenes function in BL as compared to other heterosexual romances, because they can experiment with certain plotlines that other heterosexual romances may not due to how the latter are more tightly bound by heteronormative constructs. I'll leave it there as my comment is atrociously long, but hopefully any of what i said could be food for thought. If anyone read this, thanks a lot for the patience and i'd love to hear your thoughts ^^
i'm a gay guy and have been dabbling hard in BL recently and im loving your channel and this video
Great points brought up. I know when there was the Korean BL survey going around, the written comments there were very interesting. Acting also ranked low there, NC did rank high but a lot of the written comments were about wanting couple intimacy(skinship, kissing) not necessarily NC.
I have noticed an increase in posts/comments about KBL’s being very safe/chaste and blame being put on the actors in an aggressive manner and demands that are quite entitled which seems misguided as I believe there is a huge lack of understanding about the culture…. It’s kind of obvious that they don’t watch Kdramas.
For me story/acting and chemistry between the pairs are the most important. When I have it all, I’m happy. NC scenes like in Warp Effect, fit the tone of the story and was educational and I really enjoyed it.
I grew up in an era with Queer As Folk (US) which was groundbreaking at the time as gay men were seen as Asexual. Having more creators like Jojo to showcase and represent the community is the right way to go in BL imo.
TBH I went to Bl through the stories that showed couples who were discovering their own sexuality and who they are, it was never about NC scenes. However, being a fan of BL for a while I have noticed that recently Thai Bl start to concentrate more on that aspect (NC) rather than the plot. Korean and Japanese Bl's work on the plot rather than NC scenes which leaves a lot to the audience's imagination and that is great as it leaves us hanging there and rooting for the couples, one kiss in the end confirming their feeling can be amazing! I agree with you BL become massive recently and if actors are not careful they will not develop their skills and will be used for profit, or tarnish their reputation if BL is only NC. There is a lot that BL industry needs to learn as well as the audience. BL is not only NC and it shouldn't be, there meant to be a representation of a discovery of, emotions, sexuality & relationships. I get we want different think but I want BL to flourish and be respected for the value that some of them present.
It's crazy cause as much as ppl voted for more Nc scenes where are those ppl when Nc driven shows flopped. Check out, Big Dragon, Unforgettable night were big ones that had good hype especially after Kinnporsche did well and was done well. But the plot/acting/cringe Nc no matter how many Nc there were it did not save the shows. The acting and how its shot for the NC really does matter and effects your enjoyment which I don't think those ppl who voted really thought about. It's a more new development but bls can no longer bank on NC for a hit. The amount of bdsm just randomly added fo shows& then highlighted in the promo is hilarious cause most of the time its done poorly and is barely brought up again when you assume it was a plot point from the trailer. And even after all that half assed effort its not recieved well cause its bad. It is a little frightening to see how many small companies are just adding any NC without any effort to make it good in their pilots. It hasn't hit ppl yet that if Nc are done badly it wont save them.
I like when NC scenes make sense and mean something to the plot, however some of these new shows it feels like they’re bordering on just being porn
I'm late but this topic still matters. I am definitely a 'less is more' girlie. Give me the unique stories and the emotional connection.
Also I was surprised seeing Don’t Say No on the list - I always thought it was like Love In the Air - yes spicy but good story and acting too imo
Great video! Love the entire discussion. I personally voted for better writing and acting. I can watch a show with no NC scenes and as long as it's written well and acted well I never even care. When it does come to NC scenes, as long as it makes sense in the development of the character or relationship, then I don't really care how little or too many NC scenes a drama has.
I've been analysing my relationship with BL content for quite some time now, so this is a very interesting topic for me, trying to figure out the whys to my whats. I'm no stranger to the pwp genre, if you've been around any online fandom long enough it's inevitable. I have zero issue with written pwp, I enjoy it if it's well-written. But i do have mixed feelings when I see it on the screen, and I think the main reason is this underlying fear that the actors have been pushed too far. I am always, ALWAYS aware of the potential for abuse, even power abuse from the directors/producers, especially when it comes to young actors not knowing where to set the boundary and how to enforce their own safe space. This is what I mostly think about during those super racy scenes. And when I see them replayed over and over in fanvids and reels, there seems to be a clear reason why they were included (more promotion) and why people obsess over them (fetishisation). It's not about the sex itself for me, it's about everything else around those scenes that's a bit icky. I appreciate a good nc scene, no problem there, as long as I feel like it's a creative choice and it exists for other reasons than marketing. And I honestly feel like reading a 2k word pwp is a different thing than having to watch it for 10 episodes, if you know what I mean. It makes sense if it's an insert, a side story to the main thing, but I could never keep my interest if it's 10 hours of mostly sex and not much plot to account for.
To be fair tho, I am asexual and there are some situations when if things get heated in the wrong way (wrong for me, not objectively wrong), it gets uncomfortable. So my perspective is probably skewed by that and not at all representative of a larger majority.
Moon, I watch BL's to have something that I didn't have when I was growing up: community 🏳️🌈. I'm living my 2nd adolescence right now and it is intoxicating. I live in very conservative Texas. I never thought I'd live to see these days. I Came Out when I was 36 and I feel 16 and safe now. 🇺🇸🏳️🌈🤝🇵🇭🏳️⚧️🌝 To address your question: I love a spicy scene, but it's better when the couple have a romance truly built up and it's not gratuitous and it's just two boys flesh on flesh. I need them to be in love and not in lust.
i imagine that new fans would not like sotus like we did back in the day cause they only kiss like twice 😭
Love this video Moon! Am really waiting for your video on the BOC - Build Jkp issue.
Its just very hard nowadays to see a bl with the right amount of good plot and nc scenes. When the plot is too bland, the writers tend to push the actors for a more steamy scenes for clicks. When the plot is too focused, most watchers look for nc scenes. For all the bls i have wstched, venus in the sky takes the cake of being too porny. It wasted so much potential from the great casts
I love how you always discuss your topic in such nuanced ways, for me personally, plot is probably the most important aspect, quickly followed by chemistry then acting. I'd rather appreciate a great plot with good chemistry than anything nc any day (nothing against it, I just simply don't think I'm of age and I'm not really interested in nc, I think it has taken me really long time of watching BLs in general to destigmatize it and realize it's not that deep if someone enjoys it or not, what I do fear is the exploitation of actors ESPECIALLY MINORS as we've seen in the past and obviously the pwp)
The only thing I'm going to disagree on is when you said 'pride is a celebration'. It should be a protest.
In Europe and the US we're doing some pretty terrifying backsliding of gay and trans rights and acceptance right now, so it's REALLY not a time to celebrate here, and while I think that is probably different in most of Asia, it's not as if Asian countries don't have any qu33r rights left to fight for.
I would definitely prefer better acting than the sex.
For me no. 1 on the list is actors who are able to play, who are talented and skilled, above all. NC scenes are not a must. For an NC to be good in my book there has to be chemistry between the characters and their relationship needs to be compelling cause otherwise what is the point. I didn't enjoy a lot of series with NC scenes because they felt like the only reason they created that series. At the same time there were others were the chemistry was so good that it made my shy, like I was intruding on a real couple, haha.
NC scenes are fine but should be contextually and logically consistent to plotlines. And i also feel like such scenes are getting worse because there's so much absence of intimacy and semsuality in NCs. It feels more like a reckless desensitized experience that has no real connection between characters. Sex positivity is important but not random and unnecessary sex that has no particular purpose. Of course, the concept of "gay for pay" has went too far. The older i get, the more apolitical i get. I witnessed several dilemmas and complexities of so-called "rainbow capitalism." Don't get me wrong, It is hurtful to exploit the community but we can't deny that we still live in a capitalist society where it is required to have entertainments with MONEY. Actors have their jobs. We have our own careers. Does it mean we are exploiting our talents, ideas, skills etc.? It is kind of naive to believe that we magically can get better out of nowhere without everything that exists within capitalistic sources. We can advocate against it but not with naivety. We must be realistic.
You have a lot of good points in this video about sex possitivity etc. I don't mind BLs with NC scenes, as long as the story in itself is good and the acting is good and it doesn't feel like, the BL is mostly made to show NC scenes(context/intention), and BLs doesn't have to have NC scenes to be a good BL. Showing other types of affecting than just two people going at it in bed ( for example subtle sweet moments, having fun together etc.) can often work better, I think.
This is a well thought out video. Some scenes really are gratuitous but it really does seem to be a case by case basis. Context in and out of the show is key. (though as an Australian viewer my context often comes fro channels like yours)
As long as no actor is being exploited I think that there’s space for all of it. Even porn without plot like Checkout. There’s always been that type of media so, as you stated, it’s not unique to BL. As the industry continues to grow, different bl’s will fall into different spaces. It’s up to the consumer to choose their preference.
The only time I’m a bit taken aback is when there is a particularly intense NC scene in a show that really didn’t have that vibe. In Big Dragon it’s okay because that was the tone they set at the start. But there was one at the end of Destiny Seeker that seemed a bit unnecessary. It was hot, but random. In those moments I’m taken out of the experience because it feels exploitative. Not sure if that makes sense. Lol..
It makes perfect sense. And I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said. Great thing about capitalism is that ultimately, if there's a demand, there'll be a supply. The market for BL is huge, and people in it have a whole spectrum of tastes and preferences, so there really is no need to police what types of shows get made. Just make sure that the show is well acted, well shot, well produced, give it an appropriate rating, and then let adults enjoy their porn without plot if they so please.
I was disappointed for Check out because many bl series don't include dark skinned actors. For one of the main leads to be brown side complexion wise, I was happy for this series. Filipino bls have definitely not shied away from hiring brown skin actors or more feminine actors as main leads. But most of those series dont have longevity. In a lot of thai dramas there often in the background or the criminals. I bring that up because it fits into the topic. When you see actors who have a NC scene that's a natural progression of the show and not the surrounding polt. Often times the actors who are chosen they are often very lightskin. That also sends a message as well. I think company's gave the fans what many voiced. Its the reason why I didnt watch a lot of bls. I almost checked out because many had no story lines and if they did they were about School dramas. While i get the younger audience I believe series have to grow with their audience as well. More stories with actors who can act and more character development. More series that don't deal with characters at school.
Excellent points, well stated. Viewing your video should be a prerequisite to asserting ones knowledge, or lack thereof, of things BL.
Thank you for your vid....there can never be too many NC scenes...even though I loved I will knock you ....I loved Love in the air. I love all things BL🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰🥰
I really appreciate your look on certain matters and that's the reason I really enjoyed watching your videos.
They really teach me to look things from a slightly new perspective and also the amt of research and sincere efforts you put into each one of this video is really commendable.
U deserve my respect for this.
Hoping to hear u soon in your next video.
Does no one remember Queer As Folk? Maybe this generation doesn't know it. But this is a debate that goes way back. Seems like there should be room for all sorts of plots, stories, and options. For sure the genre needs some new ideas. I think maybe there's the idea of who is the target audience for a particular show. But moving beyond chaste HS and university storylines is a good thing.
Hi! I love how you make detailed videos. If possible can you please cover build jakpan issue from the very start cause there has been a lot of misinformation allegations and what not .
Please do a video on the source material upon which BL series are based, poor adaptations, and the need to read the source material to understand the BL series. Thanks in advance.
Now that would be a very interesting topic for discussion.
Thank you I agree with everything you mentioned in your video. I personally have zero problem with NC scenes in BL's but I prefer a good story and having actors, being them seasoned or rookie that can actually act is a must for me to enjoy the series. But that's just my opinion only. Unfortunately there are always going to be people that exploit things for their own means but it feels like most BL's have been very positive. I really hope countries like Thailand get their marriage equality and legal rights and if the growing BL popularity can be a small step in helping that happen well that's incredible and i'm all for it.
thanks for this video !!
Off topic,But I just wanted to say that I agree with your opinions so much in all videos and you are criminally underrated😫😫
I have so many thoughts on this.
I've watched a lot of gay media from all over the world, but I've never been so involved in the fandom as I have with modern BLs so this conversation is both interesting and really creepy at times.
My biggest concern is are the actors safe in portraying these scenes. I don't just mean on set, at fan meets and in social media/ online as well. There are times when I watch scenes that I get a little concerned for the actors. The split in fandom of people liking the NC scenes but being homophobic in RL is mystifying to me.
I want to watch something that is well crafted: good writing, acting, production. I don't like or enjoy porn and I don't want to watch young actors having to portray it for a paycheck (also I'm older so it's really creepy if I did).
I don't mind the spice, but I really love the cute, slow build, well written, all about the relationship dramas. I adore 2gether, in my head cannon it's about a man realizing he's Bi as he falls for a gay man, so the lack of spiciness makes sense as he gay panics every other day. Also as "we" learned in Warp Effect not every gay man likes certain bits of intimacy. (I adore that drama for Thor's portrayal of Jo.)
I do also like Love in the Air that seems very spicy, but we never see anything the actors are just very good at physical gesturing.
I don't watch romance in "straight" dramas, I did watch Bridgerton & was scandalized by the NC scenes. I told my friends it was like a culture shock. The non BL Thai dramas have have enjoyed are either scifi or thrillers, so not much romance in shows like Bad Guys or Remember Me.
For me...
I prefer quality entertainment or the NC scenes. If anything, the NC scenes are just bonuses to me. Its the slow burn and build up for me. I want the NC scenes to feel natural UNLESS theres an aspect of the plot that indicates that there will be NC scenes that are suppose to lack a sense of mental and emotional intimacy between the couple. If the NC scenes only focus on the physical intimacy between the couple - then its just another scene to watch for me and I'll either fast forward the scene or be distracted by soemthing in real life, like my phone or grabbing something to eat until the next scene plays.
Ive gotten use to watching Queer media that had no NC scenes of any kind to straight up Queercoding and nothing else.
(Unless it was on HBO and it was titled 'Queer As Folk', what a wild show 😅)
Im also Ace so that could be an excuse for why I dont care for too many (and somewhat explicit) NC scenes in BL.
I want desire and not just lust. If that makes sense.
One of my favorite Thai BL series is 'Lovely Writer'.❤ The quiet momets between the leads and the serious conversations that were brought up throughout the drama - left a deep impression in my heart.
One of the most memorable scenes for me was the dinner with the main leads parents. The topic of BL shows being a 'trend' in Thai media and the topic of legalizing Same-Sex marriage in Thailand came up. All the while there were NC scenes that felt natural bcuz the writing and cinematography had a great build up to those moments.
Loved the video and I loved to see clips of the Pride parade from Thailand! Taiwan is the first but they wont be the only place to legalize Same-sex marrigae and Gay rights in Asia! 🎉🙏🏽
Just saying every comment on a series with no 18+ nc scenes are all complaining which I would say is disrespectful to the actors who are not comfortable to film these intense scenes. Yet actors are praised for filming these scenes. There is nothing wrong with enjoying these scenes, but it is sometimes just straight up sexualising gay men / couples.
I don’t want to say this because I know how easily woman Bl fans are offended, but woman will never know what it is like to be a gay man they need to calm down especially when they call the scenes realistic, because I am 100% sure they are just not.
Also it’s kind of hypocritical to call out a straight man for sexualising lesbian couples but woman do the exact same but with gay men couples. I know not every woman is like this which I am glad. But as a reminder, you are the female version of those male gl fans, none of this is wrong as long as you are not sexualising or fetishising.
I would also like to apologise for any english spelling mistakes I used.
Very astute, especially with the issues of purity culture. i want to ask these people what makes 2gether better because it lacked NC intimacy? and I definitely don't think its a worse series because it lacked NC scenes.
I think the issue is not the NC scenes themselves but how they are handled. I think there’s just the right amount of spicy BLs (and sweet BLs) - but you need to be an informed watcher. I try not to support shows that feel like they are just using actors and the spice to make money.
There are shows in the west that also suffer because of poor writing, acting, directing etc. they also have very explicit shows that seem to have no plot. I think of BLs the same way.
I think Big Dragon was unfairly placed in with Check Out. If people actually watched more than just the trailer they would have seen there was a plot, good acting, and care shown to the subject matter. The NC scenes were not the driving force of the plot.
My girlfriend and I used to watch BL together and she preferred not to see heavy NC scenes as she worried about exploitation of BL actors. As she is a gay woman from Thailand and big sister to a former TPOP trainee from a big media company (some companies have been known to recruit BL actors from among their trainees). I tend to listen to her concerns on this. However many of the comments I see on that homophobic purity trash are from straight women . It’s so telling that the person I’ve seen get the heaviest criticism before the series even comes out, is an out gay man. He’s gotten even more hate on his social media than the company who put out Check Out. 😒🤦🏾♀️ Yes I am side eyeing BL fans.
There is absolutely criticism that can be given to certain BLs, whose creators just wanted to make softcore porn. I think this is a discussion that can’t be had without gay men.
Together got me seriously mad at the end that bus scene deserved a kiss ams Friend zone is my most anticipated bl
I am a prodigiously fornicating, porn enjoying flamboyantly homosexual queer. And I loathe the excessive sex scenes in BLs lately. It is solely because of the Heart. I dove into BLs completely in 2016 because they WEREN'T western style angst-and-sex self indulgences. I fell in love with how they fall in love and focus on the expression of and the experience of the Heart, in the characters and in the audience. It's their provenance and they did it better than the West IMHO.
I want stories that make me well up and sometime scry but that get me in the heart. I can get something for my groin on other website just fine, but touching my heart with a story about same sex love is much rarer to me and I prize it. as you said, the new focus on sex scenes 1) makes poor writing and 2) has diminished the splendid way the love scenes got me in the heart. Now it goes from "Awww" to "OK, TMI".
There is nothing wrong with sex and gay sex and stories about gay sex. OnlyFriends did a great job portraying a slightly heightened version of real gay lives. The sex there was appropriate to that story. And it didn't linger for the sake of attracting eyeballs. The romance in Together was just lovely and I didn't need prolonged sex scenes to feel the love. They DID show enough to tell the story that they did have an active sex life. I didn't need to see it all, because I was enchanted by the story of the love, the feelings, the acts of kindness and emotional intimacy. BL has til now been champion at showing those. Sex is too easy to use to create a sensation and it's everywhere else. Let this genre rule the Heart.
This video offers intelligent analysis on a fascinating, if subjective, topic. But I found myself craving more rigor in defining the titular parameters. First, the term "BL" is awfully nebulous in this discussion. BL exists in novels. In television. In movies. The bar for "too racy" varies according to the medium. Television producers simply have less discretion than book authors or movie makers when it comes to "going too far." Because so many BL series originate as adaptations from novels, e.g., from source material steamier than they could ever be, it was worth taking a moment to acknowledge the potential dissonance created by the adaptation process. And that the source material influences expectations for a significant chunk of the viewing audience. Given the prominence in the discussion to satisfying viewer preferences, recognizing the gap between literary "too racy" and televised "too racy" strikes me as a worthwhile point.
Second, it is difficult to pinpoint "too racy" without a baseline for "acceptably racy." Even if we stipulate that the discussion limits itself to "television" series, the standard for "too racy" will shift with variables. Relevant ones include the hour of broadcast, which influences "who is watching?"; and, even more importantly, who has the means to receive transmission. Whether the signal is free over-the-air (broadcast television), a subscription service (cable television or premium cable), or a streaming service (subscription also) helps determine an appropriate line for steamy content. And, of course, BL is a phenomenon that transcends national boundaries, so that the moment when "acceptably racy" becomes "too racy" plays out differently from culture to culture. To discuss the topic as if all BL is the same or a single standard would fit every production sacrifices a bit of nuance. Here, I felt the absence of that nuance.
To me it doesn't matter as long as the plot is interesting and the acting is amaizing. Also there dramas with no NC scenes which were actually good like My School President which was okay for me too .
I'm happy watching a bl with not even a kiss what so ever. But I think people like to see more 18+ scenes in bl, because sex is a normal thing that happens between two adults, which is why people want to see it more normalized in shows instead of it being shamed by other. I don't know just my opinion (P.S. I am not trying to offend anyone.
I think my opinion might be a bit different, since I'm 40, and live in Scandinavia 😅 if I want to watch male on male pr0n, I watch that. I can access any pr0n within seconds if I want to. So I don't watch BL for the sex. Or the plot most of the time, since it's usually something I have seen 100 times before (the Bad guy/frienemy dynamic). But I also know that not everyone have that. I know that gay relationships are still illegal in places, and the stigma around it. Not everyone can get hold of pr0n. To much sex scenes will get me to loose interest, because I don't want to have to watch pr0n. No matter what kind. I don't blame any actor in those BL, the ones that are doing the misrepresentation är the companies. And ofcourse not all across who plays gay characters are gay. Not even in gay pr0n are all the dudes actually gay. A lot of gay people have played straight and visa versa, For me it's simple; no matter what, there have to be consent, actors should feel safe and comfortable. And it disturbs me watching a show I know that real harm was done. So I'm all in for the Intimacy coordinator becoming a thing. Protect the actors, let people be who they want to be, love who they want to love. Simple as that.
I have nothing against NC scenes in bl but most bls I've seen that have too many steamy scenes, usually don't have good acting and interesting storyline. It's almost like they only care too please an specific group of people. I feel like It's possible to have a story that has NC scenes and good acting and storyline at the same time
You have to get a production company, director, and screenwriters to all be on the same page when it comes to creating series that do have those scenes.
Me, personally, I’ve always felt uncomfy watching sex scenes in any media, and unfortunately a handful of my first BLs that I watched had noncon scenes which added to the uncomfortableness, so I tend to avoid shows that advertise it as the main selling point. What can I say, I’m a sucker for cheesy, fluffy romance. But it’s not a bad thing to like steamy romances, and I will watch it if it fits within the context of the story (and NC scenes aren’t randomly thrown in just because). I haven’t watched any new BL in a while cause it seemed a lot of them advertised the sex aspect than a story, the only new shows I’m watching rn being Step By Step & Naked Dining (loving them btw 🫶🏼). Been thinking about this for a while so I’m really glad you made a video talking about it!
my quick answer before watching, no. and assuming we're using racy with its negative connotation, the answer is still no lol.
Thanks for the video
To be honest: the BL series I like most are the ones with a good plot, good acting and good NC scenes - all combined. 😂
I'm ok if there are only few NC scenes (or almost none at all), like in "2gether", but the worst is to have a bad plot and bad acting or poorly written characters. An example: as much as I loved "Bed Friend", I hated the spin-off "Middleman's Love", because the characters were soooo bad. Not the acting, but the way they were written.
On the other hand: at least in my case, good NC scenes can "save" a series with bad plot or bad acting/characters. The first BL series I ever saw was "Be Mine Superstar", with an average plot, some bad acting (guest roles) and the worst, in my opinion: Ja's role. Fortunately, there are many very good NC scenes in this series (and I also mean the acting), so I watched it 'til the end and it made me watch more series with JaFirst. Otherwise, my first impression about BL/Thai series would have been so bad that I wouldn't have kept watching them.
Another example: "Playboyy", with bad acting and bad/confusing plot in the first episodes. I watched it because of the NC scenes and I'm happy I did: both the acting and the plot got better in the second half of the series.
One thing that I love about the NC scenes in BL series (besides the obvious reason 😂) is something that I've never seen in series with heterosexual couples: they educate people. More than just showing "how to do it", in most BL series that I've watched they asked for consent, in some they show the characters using condoms, they talk about lubricants, ointment for "the day after" and aftercare. I think this is very important especially for younger gay people who haven't had their first sexual experiences yet.
Personally, I'm quite torn on this topic. If we just compare the suxual scenes in bl to Hollywood and other international productions depicting sexual relations between same-sex or straight coupling. Those scenes are still tame. And we can't forget that even not positive representation of sexuality can be important. The "good and the bad", when handled the right way, is contributing to the education on sexuality. Save sex, consent in any kind of sexual interaction and even the lack of the later can be presented in a way to draw awareness onto such topics. Also overly sexual depicted characters are a form of representation, and can be educational. There's nothing wrong with being less or more sexually active. My problem is, when there are no cohesive plotlines, that are more or less used as just a lead-in for the next sex scene. While we still have the problem of the bl industry lacking appropriate financial means to deliver high quality productions, I want there to be at least an feasiable intend, some plausible motives. On the topic whether straight or gay people play the roles, imo It comes down to fetishization of good looking same sex couples. It's where the regard to reality gets lost and some people would rather fantasize about heterosexual, same-sex couplings. A more healthy fan culture is what needs to be cultivated. Its why a healthy discourse is needed. But that's the same in every fandom of any business. We are the ones that can contribute greatly to a more healty mindset in the industry.
Cast and Actors who can act at 10% poll no wayy 😭 heres why Ive been into western and japanese BLs/Queer stories is because the acting sucks. Its shows lack of faith to the material and just pure spectacle if we dont give af about the acting omg 😭 whats the point anymore? we are losing the plot and sauce yall
sex scenes isnt even the problem its the nothingness of the stories and half ass acting
I wasn't interested by BL stories on screen, before I started LITA.
Honestly, I don't care about how many NC scenes, or if they are Sex Friends Couple whatever. Doesn't matter to me.
What matters to me is: is it healthy? Do they treat each other well?
If there is no abuse I'm down.
I mostly enjoy seeing people loving each other and being happy.
I'm tired of seing/reading stories about abusive couples.
I loved LITA because of PayuRain relationship. While he did questionable things at the beggining, he is very supportive and caring and goes out of his way to communicate if there is any argument. And he doesn't let Rain neglect studies.