The sad thing, is that all those who did make those accusations towards Kit, deprived him of the opportunity to come out, on his own terms, in his own way, when he was actually ready to reveal himself to everyone else, that were not his family, or friends. A huge factor, that totally went against the main theme of "Heartstopper". As an older cis female viewer of BLs, and LGBTQ+ series, and films, I want to understand the, quite frankly obsessive need some viewers have in feeling like, it's their "right" to know everything about a total stranger's life, just because we have watched them in a series/film that is centered on love between two same-sex fictional characters. The last time, I saw something like this happening, on such an extreme level, was when "Killing Eve" was initially airing. The way that some of those fans, went after the lead actress, Jodie Comer was absolutely shocking to me.
They need to understand that celebrities private life isn't their business. I mean, look what happens with Koreans idols. They're the prisoners of their own fans. That's so sad to see. Really
@Nana KIM It really IS sad, and we can't all say that because it's someone else's culture, that it's understandable, acceptable, and not talk about the negatives of it. It's like some of these fans expect the actors to be forever beholden to them, for the rest of their careers.
There is so much toxic fan service and fans out there. As a gay man, I love to see these stories brought to life. And I completely agree with everything you said. Personally, I think my biggest problem with this industry are actors who audition for and take on gay roles knowing they are not at least allies. There are a few BL actors in the last few years who have been caught on camera saying horrible things about us or the industry. They are totally free to have any opinion they choose to have about things and people around them. However, do not then turn around and partake in an industry that provides stories about gay people. I am much more impressed with actors like Max and Tul who have always been allies of the LGBTQ+ community. Sure, it would be amazing if they were gay. But even if they are not, at least they are supportive and have never said anything negative about our community. This is the right way to take on roles like these and just perform them to the best of their abilities. Thanks for your great video!
I adore Max and Tul. They are one of the few “couples” who have mentioned Aces. We’re often outcasted within The Community, so it was nice to be included by them.
@@adeleennis2255 Max and Tul are the exception not the rule which is sad. They also don’t do fan service. They have a truly brotherly bond and love each other which is really great to see.
100% agree and ironically, that's one of the reasons Max and Tul are 2 of my favorites. It's fine for 2 straight actors to play gay, it's not fine for those same actors to be openly homophobic, for companies to actively only cast straight actors(I think it was GMMTV that had controversy for a casting call that specifically excluded actual gay people) and I especially hate when companies and actors go out of their way to pretend to be a couple in real life fostering this toxic fandom around a fake coupling and they do this "We're just close friends" but then they go out of their way to imply being a couple or doing over the top fanservice like "Are we gay or not?", It's a problem. If they're gonna make a gay show, they need to respect actual gay people instead of using them as lust objects for straight women which is usually the real reason they don't want anyone actually gay, they want to sell them to women so they need to have one foot in gayness while still being perceived as straight. It's like when fake lesbians were in a bunch of American media solely for straight men, that's not ok.
@@mismismism Completely agree with you, Maxx. I am always thrilled to see some of Thailand's well know gay actors still performing in some of these BL series. Fluke (NaTouch) is one for sure who seems to be getting more and more roles as he matures. His acting is very strong. Now, as a side note related to toxic fans, I do find it very odd that, because these actors are told to dump or hide their real relationships (especially str8 ones), toxic fans often send death threats to the girlfriends because they think the guys should be together and these girlfriends are trying to get in the way of their true love. This is one part of the BL industry that seriously pisses me off. Imagine Tom Hanks being told that he has to dump his wife because he is playing a role with another woman and they want to sell that actress as his "love interest". We immediately see that as beyond stupid. And no Hollywood actor would ever accept that. But because most of these BL actors are new and just finding their footing, it is all about this crappy "fan service" that forces decisions onto these poor actors. Fan service has somehow been torn apart by these toxic fans and the actors' managers and production companies or tv stations. You can sell a show just as well to fans by interviewing them. Letting fans meet them just like they would any other actor. Again, imagine an actor like Tom Hanks being asked (even 30 years ago when he started out) to play the Poky game with his co-stars! He would tell them to F- off! I would love to see some of these BL actors in person. Getting to meet them would be very cool. But I do not need to see them fake relationships for me. That is what the shows are for! I know most of them are not even gay, let alone dating each other in real life. So stop this pretending crap for stupid fans who cannot separate reality from fiction. Damn...sorry for the rant haha Fan service really sets me off sometimes! hehe
It's crazy to me how obsessed and invested some fans are in two people's relationship to the point that they call it queerbaiting when sometimes (or even MOST of the time) it's just two dudes who are genuinely good friends. The term has been thrown around so much to the point that it pisses me off sometimes. I hope these people know it's not really the right thing to be so obsessed with the sexual orientation of two random people. But I get why people can get so invested honestly And for fanservice, It's not always an issue, as it is honestly just a part of the system and how these actors work to gain their money, it's not something these actors get to choose if they WANT to do or not. It is a little infuriating and even funny how crazy it can be, but at the end of the day, It's just capitalism getting the best of everyone.
Why are BL actors having to do fake fan service in the first place? We all know it’s fake except maybe some very delusional fugoshi fans. This kind of promotion is not done in western shows that have LGBTQ story lines. I don’t think it hurts the bottom line in the west. So why in Asia is it expected? I hate it and consider it the BS that in reality it is.
@@rhyker9597 I don’t know much but all I can say based on what I’ve heard is that they try to MARKET the pair itself, which is why they have to always do fanservice and it WORKS. You have two good looking guys act in a show as a couple, and now you have them acting like a couple offscreen so the fans think they’re like their characters (which on the acting side, is beneficial to both actors because they’re acting both OFF and ON screen, but it’s obviously very negative in other sides) and the target audience really eat it up. IT WORKS. REALLY WELL SOMETIMES.
Plus, delusional fujoshis are really not a small group of people, unfortunately. I too don’t get why it’s more prevalent in Asia but it’s a system that has been rinsed and reused far too many times to be changed.
@@rhyker9597 I agree and understand that being a bl actor comes with the expectation to do fanservice, however, when they do fanservice they aren't doing it as the characters they play, they do it as themselves. It's sad because they have to sell this (more than likely) false and overexaggerated idea daily in front of fans and peers. It's like their characters become not only their brand but who they are. It carries on and attaches itself to their name and we may get this false idea of who they truly are. And in all honesty, it may not be that serious (insert laughing emoji) but at the same time, I feel like a lot of fans miss out on genuine friendships because they see these lovey-dovey moments that do not come off as platonic all the time (fanservice). I think the feeling that fans get when they see fanservice is the same as when watching a bl, which may be hard for them to divide the real world from the show, especially when watching through a screen. I say all of that to say, while I do think that fanservice is expected I feel like it's up to the fans to somewhat speak out against it. Even though that very well might not do anything at all.
@@miwami. I agree. The Thai BL industry is leveraging fandom to grow. It's just like how kpop does it, EXCEPT the couples are officially endorsed. Fans in kpop create fanships, but in Thai entertainment (yes, even het entertainment) pairings are created from the industry itself (the actors or the company). These ships create WAY more money for the BL industry which is why it's been able to grow so rapidly. Those pointing out how "the West doesn't have to do this" should compare the amount of BL Thailand alone put out this year to the small amount of queer shows the entirety of the West released. Their are pros and cons to this tactic, but without it, we'd have little to no shows at all.
I just watch the drama. EVERYTHING ELSE IS A PERFORMANCE. To clarify, I expect actors to act gay in the BL series. Fan meets, photoshoots for magazines, interviews, BL series extra videos, tiktoks where THE ACTORS are being all cute and like a couple IS A PERFORMANCE. I ignore it.
The cases of zeenunew and kit connor(person who played nick in heartstopper) are good examples of how the word queer baiting being used out of context all the time is so dangerous and harmful for the community and doing the opposite of what you intend to do. Even though most of the bl industry works on this marketing strategy to ofcourse make more money , considering all of it as queer baiting or fs would just leave zero chance for the actual queer actors to have a safe space . Kit connor was basically forced to come out as bi at such a young age when he has such a bright future and unfortunately that does affect his acting career since a lot of people avoid giving queer people "normal” roles in commercial movies . And all of this was bcz he was accused of queer baiting just bcz he was supporting lgbtq outside his series and was seen out with a girl(also goes to show how bisexuality is completely ignored every single time sexuality comes into talk) . And in the case of zeenunew, I think people should just not talk about it if they don’t believe it . I mean what harm did it do to anybody to say that they’re a couple ?(they didn’t say “I think we act like a couple” it was a mistranslation and it was actually corrected by a trusted Thai translator to be “you could say we’re a couple”) (also they would be more in danger than in advantage by outing themselves) I mean how else could you possibly announce your relationship in that industry ? Saying that it is fanservice when y’all clearly know up to what extent fanservice can go and it’s not to the point you admit that you’re a couple in a serious interview just for the publicity. They weren’t even like “neither denying nor accepting” or laughed it off saying “kidding” . So not accepting that There’s a possibility of two actors in a bl industry being in a relationship out of all the thousands of straight bl actors is just homophobic and is not helping in the representation that we crave for .
The case of Zee and Nunew is so funny to me bc these men literally SAID it. The word they used in Thai was the word "lover", not "friend" not "brother" not "partner", but lover, l o v e r. The man who was asking the questions also used the word "love" as in "romantic love", like... that's it. But people somehow won't believe it, because they can't. Reminds of the meme "historians will say they're very good friends" ?? Zee and NuNew are very brave for doing this, and people should respect their relationship.
@@rainivy3314 FACTS!!! Also, they confirmed that they’re a couple on some radio station a little while ago. Ppl SRSLY need to respect them and support them, smfh-
Billy and Seng's story on War of Y definitely opened a new perspective on me as a BL fan it made me realize that the BL industry in Thailand is not all butterflies and glamour, the actors having the dilemma to satisfy their management and the fans that it leads to them ending up broken to the point of feeling disgusted about themselves, the industry is so competitive that they push themselves to do something that they aren't comfortable and when they can't hide their dissatisfaction they would be scrutinised for being "ungrateful", it's sad but that's reality😔
I was having a discussion with someone about queerbaiting in the recent era of Doctor Who a few days ago and it got hearted (I won’t go into that) from my perspective (as a gay man) I see queerbaiting as when two male or female characters are lovey dovey with each other, but don’t act upon their feelings (if that makes sense) I 100% agree queer characters shouldn’t need kiss or do the deed, confessions (“I love you”) are better.
@@tokublwhovian Sorry if my remark sounded flippant. It was just the most obvious example I could think of. Fans for years accused the writers of queerbaiting, and even the way the actors played certain lines was like they were in on it.
@@tokublwhovian Lmao he was just validating your point. Dean and Cas (from Supernatural) are two straight characters (well, Dean is straight and Cas is supposedly asexual, since he's an angel) who have a lot of sexual tension on screen and seem to care about eachother like star crossed lovers; but nothing ever comes out off it in the 11 seasons they were on.
@tokuBLWhovian stated "I see queerbaiting as when two male or female characters are lovey dovey with each other, but don’t act upon their feelings".... but that happens in a lot of shows between heterosexual characters as well... its not specific to any sexual orientation. so not sure that its queer baiting exactly
The funny thing about the fan service and fanbase of BL shows/stories overall is that the majority of them feed themselves into imagining that the actors are canonically a couple IRL and then get mad when they are disappointed by their own imagination. They are literally being toxic to their own selves without even knowing it, and then take out that anger on the actors instead.
this also goes to the k-pop industry as well, it's awful how the fans who don't have lives stalk these individuals. also if more positive fans would speak out about the un necessary promoted fanservice some of this might die down. in interviews they ask inappropriate questions trying to make them speak on their connections with the other partner for their ratings. call it what you want was a good example of letting us know some of the abuse that was going on in the industry. and a few youtube videos also spoke on it. we need more less toxic people to speak out. since some of the companies sometime listen to what the fans are saying. I just want them all to be happy and healthy in their lives as actors/singers. 💜🖖
Kpop stans are wild, and I mean wild. There's of course gay idols, because idols are just humans at the end of the day. So yes, that's a thing I'm not denying that. But obviously these people live in secret, they can't be out. And oh boy... it's okay if you think someone might be queer, but outing this person ? It happened once with one idol that I won't name for their own sake. Somehow a very suspicious fact about them (more like, very obvious fact) "leaked" I suppose, and it started out with few fans and then it ALMOST got out of hands because people couldn't stfu. The worst part is that they were "fans" and a lot of them were queer.
The sad thing about kpop ships is that you can’t even really tell who is good friends with whom in the group or if they’re even friends cause in the end they’re co-workers who are trying to gain fans and fame.
As a queer person I have a bad perception of BL industry and its fandom, not all of it obvi, 1st due to some actors and/or companies that clearly profit from the LGBTQ+ community but want nothing to do with us. A clear example was the month of June, almost no actor or BL company spoke about it, there were even actors who only attended the pride parade to promote their work, but they didn't even publish a mid post about the month of pride, NOTHING, these types of actors are the ones who accept a role just for money and fame, and IK that we all work to get a benefit and it's not necessary for an actor to publicly show his support but some of these border on homophobia or are homophobic, same with companies that refuse to accept LGBTQ+ people, I'm not saying that an actor has to be queer to represent a queer character, but you have real queer people who can clearly represent us, and here comes another problem, some companies use queer labels and claim to represent the community, BUT BL DOES NOT REPRESENT THE REALITIES OF QUEER PEOPLE, and this misconception extends to fandoms that may fetishize or idealize real couples.
My favorite BL serie list is short do to the extreme fanservice, industry goes like they literally have a list and make sure the actors go ✔️✔️ I understand they are actors and me as a fan Stan the characters ships and support the actors for their work, until know the only couple of actors that got my truly admiration from the way they talk and support the LGTBQ+ community is Boun and Prem from Wabi Sabi and my biggest respect for the support this agency gives to their actors. Earth came out 🌈 and they don't turn their backs on him, majority of companies actors can't be themselves they treat them as products. Poor Earth receives a lot of hate (some BL actors bullying him too😤) but he receives a lot of support and love from other actors and truly fans too. He's so brave and makes me sad that even in a BL industry he needs to be brave to be himself.
It’s one of those things where it’s not exactly queerbaiting, but it does make you feel like “Damn, they really are making their entire career on playing me like fiddle.” I think the main problem is that the media produced does justice for representation but it’s the strong fan service that’s more messed up. Fan service isn’t necessary to promote media, I’m not sure why it’s so prevalent in Thailand.
Yes! Fanservice is not necessary to promote these series and that's what prevents me from interacting with bl fans online. I feel like an outsider in the fandom because I never watch interviews or promotions to these series and, I usually don't know actor names until the series starts airing. I wish I could actually connect with people that love the same series that I do but most fans seem so disconeted from reality either talking about a ship being real/endgame or speculating about someone sexuality. This makes feel both sad and impotent bc there is no way to break it to them that it is not okay to talk about people's personal lives...
@@anaclgarcez I don’t get the fanservice either. Does it really matter so much if the actors are dating, just friends, or simply coworkers? I don’t think so. Until an acting pair comes out in an Arm-Porsche kind of way, I presume they are friends. If they are more, great for them, but if they are not, that’s still not an issue that’s important to my life, nor is it actually any of my concern. Whatever the reality of an acting pair’s situation, I just want the best for them. I think that is what a true fan does. When we watch non-BLs do we hope for the protagonists to be dating in real life? Not normally. It does happen that on-screen relationships turn into real life relationships, but most fans don’t expect fanservice in these other genres. If we even think about it, we hope everyone had a good experience making that film or tv series. We don’t expect weeks, months, or even years of fanservice from one successful film or series. It’s just kind of insane what BL actors are expected to do in order to promote their series or film.
@@adeleennis2255 I think the way that the people handling the production and PR of these series cultivate boundaries (or lack thereof) plays a large factor in this. I think probably since the dawn of the BL industry, promotional teams realised that fan service brings in loyal fans of couples, who will spend to watch them interact at fansigns, promotional events and concerts. In the larger entertainment industry, there are professional boundaries maintained and respect given towards the actor and their craft because of norms already in place. In an industry like BL that was probably largely underfunded for the longest time, I think these productions had to think a bit out of the box in order to make a profit. I realised when I got into watching BL shows that all those ship videos of the actors doing fan service would get millions of views. Another BL industry phenomenon I’ve witnessed is concerts. It seemed absurd to me that someone with barely any singing and dancing talent was getting on stage to sing and dance for fans, when that’s not even their job. It’s all that BL capitalism at play, lol. The BL industry is handled a lot like the kpop idol industry used to be, come to think of it. Anyway, I think that fans will follow the lead of the promotional team, if the promo team is encouraging fan service and blurring lines then fans will wholeheartedly engage. I hope the BL industry can slowly wean off fanservice and cultivate respect towards the 😅actor’s craft and the ethos of a film production since now BL is rising into the mainstream. Fan service is so unhealthy for all parties involved. And it makes people easily invade the actors’ boundaries.
@AnaJ I was lucky enough to find a group of BL fans who engage in the fanservice to a certain degree, but are on a similar wavelength of respect for the actors. They deserve their privacy, and in most cases it's fine to joke about sometimes for the fanservice, it is part of the job and they're pretty aware of what the job entails, but constantly analyzing and peering into their lives is just invasive, dangerous, and no one should be subjected to that.
I think this video is really important concerning recent events (like Kit Connor being forced to come out for example). It's also important to note that a lot of the times actors just have to do what their companies tell them and have no control over how much "fan service" they wanna do, so even if it seems like "queerbaiting" it's very likely that it's not even their choice
I can see that happening when their advertisers make them carry out their gay characters relationships. This adds to their difficulties when they are told to “stay in character” while filming and advertising and promoting the film etc. It makes people believe the outtakes /BTS and that the actors are as gay as their characters. Sigh. What a mess and that is the industry queer baiting / using them to promote their film to the detriment of their privacy.
Okay, so here comes my lengthy comment about the video. First off, thank you for bringing this subject to light and dissecting it in a way that is not biased. There were some good points made throughout and I definitely agree that forcing actors to reveal their sexualities is selfishly intrusive. However, as a Queer Thai person, I still feel that a large majority of the discussion is overly simplified. You gave an example of how an actor had stated that he 'would only do BL again when he runs out of money'. The thing is, this isn't an isolated incident. Many (and I mean A HELL LOT) of BL actors are homophobic and/or at the very least ignorant about LGBTQIA+ issues. We should not simplify this issue by saying that that certain actor is just an asshole. Although it's true that these actors are essentially doing everything they can to survive in the capitalistic world, it must also be discussed that they are taking away jobs from actual LGBTQ+ people who are struggling far more to make their presence known in the industry. The question is 'is it really right to be giving platforms to homophobic straight men and letting them profit off of our identities?' when in present time they are taking up queer spaces and perpetuating harmful stereotypes of our community. They want to reap the benefits yet can't find a time in their day to actually rally for LGBTQ+ rights outside of the typical overused 'love has no gender' bullshit. Representation should not be at the disposal of queer people. Another discussion to be had is how many minors are casted into BL roles. Not only is it dangerous to place minors at the forefront of the spotlight to be fetishized and sexualized by straight women, it is also scary how this industry can take advantage of them. There was a hashtag that blew up on Thai twitter some time ago regarding minors in the entertainment industry. These minors are groomed into believing that providing fanservice and living up to the sexual fantasies of cishet women is an absolute must to survive in the industry. They are also made to perform NC/bed scenes in front of fully grown adult crews. So while their company/agency are doing little to nothing to educate them about LGBTQ+ issues, they are used as queerbaiting props. I also hate the fact that BL is treated as a genre of its own when it is not. There are so many genres within BL works themselves (just like straight media) yet they are still constantly being labelled as just BL. The word BL/Yaoi originated from and is still largely used to avoid saying 'gay' (as it is aimed for cishet female consumers). There have been many instances of Yaoi fangirls denying that BL is gay despite the shows depicting clearly mlm relationships. I could honestly go on for hours about how messed up this industry is and how truly disgusting it is to see queerbaiters excel monetarily from stealing our identities. It is such a sensitive, multi-layered topic. That's all I can think of for now though.
@@HMemon-wj1xb I would love to discuss this is more detail except I'm not quite sure which topics I should bring up in particular since there are so many ongoing issues 😅 Though, if you do have any questions regarding Thai queer experiences, societal perception, media landscape, etc., I'd gladly share my insight to the best of my ability!
Honestly, I don't even know where to begin with, if I have to talk about how messed up and yet surprisingly refreshing this industry is. There are so many questions and concerns that should be addressed. As an Asian myself, I just find it hard to understand why fans, who are mostly, heterosexual women can be overly obsessed to ship actors in real life? I mean, what's the point? This is even become more confusing to the fact that those who actually like watching BL series don't seem to accept gay relationship in real life. Thai BL industry itself somehow gives me the thought that only good looking, fair skinned and masculine actors are valid of gay relationship. I personally don't like when they portray a rather feminine gay character as a loud, noisy and pervert characters. This is not only happening in one or two series, but it has almost become like a golden standard. Another issue is regarding the use of minor in BL series. The problem is not because they are minor, but it tends to be on the role and the treatment they receive from staff. Well, honestly, casting children and teenager in the entertainment industry is nothing new and so does the high school romance trope. On the positive side of this high school story is that it can raise awareness about acceptance among high school students since there are many incidents of bullying to gay people happen in this level of education. But the lack of proper and balance portrayal about gay teenager somehow just makes the situation kinda worse. There are many BL series out there which tends to depict gay teen romance solely on the basis of "sensual act". For example they have to do intense kissing scenes or even sex scene. There is a lack of series that really tells how innocent and pure gay teenanger can be when it comes to love. It's just feel like it's been going so far away from the complexity of real gay character, and becomes more and more like a p*rn movie.
@@notyourmoon5914 I'm queer, interested in queer cultures and queer media, and plan to move to Thailand in the next year or so (likely permanently, not with one foot already out the door). I'd love to talk to you about queer stuff.
I think for some it's like Extra content - with MileApo or BibleBuild you often see "his Vegas jumped out" or "that was Kinn looking at Porsche" type of comments - it keeps the ship you enjoyed in the original media alive. It might be why a lot of the BL actors will remain in the "roles" of their characters aka the character is very dominant and possessive - the actor behaves that way with their onscreen partner (Boss Chaikamon as Payu is often like this in events with Noeul who plays Rain). Altho apparently BOC does not require fanservice of their actors, they do what they want so a lot of what we see with them interacting outside of magazine shoots is apparently their genuine friendships.
i agree with u i think thats what makes the kinnporsche cast very approachable is that. they have geninue friendships and whenever they do fan service they just act as a character rather than pretending they are in love. obviously some mileapo and biblebuild shippers exist out there still but especially with biblebuild i think everything they do is out of their amazinf friendship and u can really see that.
and the cast together as a whole seem really close and enjoy working with eachother. id say theyre the only bl actors i properly check up on because i feel they have good chemistry . and i know theyre supportive too.
War of y literally potrayed so many serious topics that some fans find it "offensive" Cause they felt called out🗿 Also when lovely writer came out, some *fans* refused to watch it because Kao was acting with someone else instead of earth 🗿..... 4:48 - 5:17 My goodness, the way I agreed on this!! 8:38 this is why I love kinnporsche cast, kinnporsche taught so many things along with series/excellent acting, they are REAL, they don't fake, doesn't matter whether they are gay or straight or in a relationship, they have a bond that's why 80% of their fans are here. And that's why their fan following is growing day by day even after all these months of the end of the series.. I ship mileapo very much cause what they have feels like fate or soulmate, their past meetings and history are just magical, I want them to be together but I still go and crush over Apo with heart eyes 🤣😭 he is perfect ✨lol, I never went nor saw mature mileapo fans to go and spam their posts with relationship accusation , I love watching them cause they don't fake that's all And literally because of them I learned to recognize fan service just seeing once🤣..
When you said a company that doesn't allow their main actor to come out.. GMMTV definitely come to my mind. I know there 2 actor, who as soon as their contract expires and leave GMMTV announced their sexuality plus their boyfriend.
@@min_nad Plustor the one who play in Friendzone the series, i believes he end his contract last year with GMMTV and became independent actor, after that he announced his boyfriend of 1 or 2 year i believe
@@min_nad the other one is Ten Tosatid, he play alot of gmmtv series around 2012 to 2015 ish. But after tbe contract end, I believe in 2016. He became a producer, had his own show and introduced his boyfriend
Being from the West, I’ve had a hard time understanding shipping and fan service. It’s confusing to me. Pairs are strongly pushed as couples, yet they never confirm or deny their relationship or any relationship.
Me too. Ok some it's ok like when they do it in their characters but when it's off Camara get me confuse, when I start in the bl series i was like how cool the actors can be open about their feelings 😍 as time goes on and almost every couple do the same I was like wtf 😵💫 I get piss when some actors even made homophobic comments. understand the actors don't saying what they are or not cuz painful like it is their careers are at risk. Industry is making money with the support from LGTBQ+ community and in exchange actors from the community can't be open about themselves 🤯😡
@@cdj588 Yes, even after a couple of years of watching BLs, I still don’t get it. The actors continue the story off camera at endless events. My TH-cam feed is flooded with all these loving “moments “ between people who may having nothing more between them other than a working relationship. I just try to keep in mind that these people are actors. I don’t know them, and they are not the characters they play. They are paid to sell their pairing and it’s not necessarily reality…probably not, in fact. I think it must be a hard way to live. They should be able to love who they wish; to date, to marry, etc. This doesn’t happen to such a degree with American stars.
@@sprinkles4375 extreme fanservice ⛽ the delulu fans, for real its staring to borders me cuz ok I don't have years watching BL but I consider myself as someone that can have some perspective of what they do but if I see fanservice from the point of view of some immature, homophobic or close minded person? The possessive, jealousy bf is not a good thing for once, I think that's one of the reasons I like BounPrem interaction, if you look for BounPrem jealous moments it's only a couple of them and most of them is Boun taking care of Prem cuz he doesn't like show a lot of skin or really theme taking care of the other, the little fanservice they do it's not a lot or was when they started and follow the flow, but now they say they are the same Camara on or off and regarding their sentimental status it's a matter involving both of them only, they support the community not only one in a while saying "love have no gender" they really post about the marriage regulations and talk about 🌈equality. The industry not allow actors to be open about themselves but use them to create a fantasy to make more money, start in Asia and international fans are welcoming that practice too, it's a shame how fighting for equality to have more exposure in the media is generating that actors are treated like products 😔
@@cdj588 It can sometimes be hard for me not to be delusional about my favorite BL couples. BounPrem, YinWar, BillySeng, BossNouell, OffGun, BillkinPP look so real together, but if they don’t say they are together, I presume they are not. I just don’t understand why they must be so vague while they are promoted as a couples.
@@sprinkles4375 I understand you it's really hard not to ship them sometimes, being honest when BossNouel started i was like "JESUS 🤯 they really something else" but after seeing more of them it's exactly the same as others so i remember myself that is not my business but they really have a great chemistry. what bothered me is why actors need to fake they're gay if they're not? But the real gay actors can't say openly?. I support characters ships (WinTeam, PayuRain, examples) encourages the actors to keep working together when they do it great together but personal lives are not my business, this industry should be a safe place for actors in the LGTBQ+ community to be open about themselves and what's happening is the opposite effect 😔
As a queer fan playing catch-up(watching both old and new BL during the pandemic), I've definitely noticed a move in the genre toward realism in depicting these queer characters and their relationships. What has taken decades in western media had happened in a few short years in BL. However, I only consume the narratives. As an American, non-teenager, the crass product placements and manipulative off screen shipping are easy for me to tune out. Visibility is our strongest ally. It's rarely perfect but once our stories are out in the open it is inevitable that our truth will be told.
I definitely do agree with a lot of points from this. I do have mixed feelings about fan service. This is coming from my perspective of being handsy with my bestie of 20 years. We’ve cuddled and all that stuff together, even in public many times, so it’s perfectly normal for friends to be affectionate in that way. Literally to the extent that almost everyone in high school thought we were dating. We never corrected anyone because who cares. 🙆🏻♀️ There are many genuine friendships between different pairs. A handful of pairs that were friends before starring in anything together. Earth and Mix, Billkin and PP, and Anson and Charles were friends with each other before acting together. There are also pairs that have been friends for years that met during castings. Max and Tul have been besties for 6+ years. Off and Gun have grown together and become close friends. Kaownah and Turbo, Ohm and Nanon, and Santa and Earth too. They’ve also been friends for years. There are definitely random new pairs that go overboard with it, but there are also many that don’t care. Perth even said recently that many actors that only do what they’re comfortable with now, which I think is a good thing. No one should feel forced to do anything like that. Hence me having mixed feelings about that aspect. It’s hard to judge those pairs since many have been friends for 5+ years as they’ve known each other for that long. It can become a habit you don’t even realize until someone points it out. And on the flip/dark side, there have also been genuine friendships that ended because of excessive shipping from delulus so that happens too. I hate that. 🙃 Fans really need to understand that just because friends are touchy feely does not mean they’re dating. 🙆🏻♀️ - On a similar note regarding friendships, there are two actors from a German series called Verbotene Liebe, Thore and Jo. They starred together as a queer couple for 4-5 years on the show. They’ve been friends in real life for 14+ years, Jo was the best man at Thore’s wedding, and Jo is besties with Thore’s wife. So yes, there are definitely friendships created from starring as a queer couple in a series. 💙😂
Thank you for being honest and making sure of the facts concerning queerbaiting and BL whether in series or real life. I'm an American mother who has been learning how to be supportive to my MTF young adult and to a son who has come out as Bisexual. I enjoy not only BL series but regular shows like LOVE O2O, Falling into Your Smile, and others (American, European, etc.,) and it pains me to know that actors/actresses maybe pressured to "act" as a couple for fans, etc. The rude comments, actions of people affect all including my family. BE SAFE, BE STRONG! LOVE TO ALL!
First of all, thank you for the insight. This is a very interesting topic for me... My biggest takeaway from this is that; - You cannot really call someone a queerbaiter if you don't know their sexuality and gender identity. -Before calling someone a queerbaiter first acknowledge the privileges that you might have which the person might not have -We should allow people to discover themselves how they want, and not force them to come out etc -Fan service is the weirdest invention in (Asian) entertainment, and very uncomfortable to watch when it seems to be too planned and structured (and not voluntary, spontaneous and impromptu) -We should really learn to separate the actor from the act/art (of course this is naïve thinking, but whatever) -The word "queerbaiting" has lost all meaning now from inconsistent, arbitrary use and overuse -I thought we all "knew" that it's an act, so why do we want it to become true? (Fan service is what I mean, and I'm including myself here sarcastically)
Fabulous report. As a fan of BL, you can tell there is so much behind these dramas. Hate when people CP / ship the two leads and make their life a living h*ll saying that’s who they are in real life. It really hurts the actors in their real life as you said , their private relationships are none of our business. For example, It really hurt the actors in Chinese BL aka Bromance after censorship , in The Untamed. The two actors cannot even have a public friendship without netizens going after them and other powers trying to destroy them. Their agencies won’t even let them be seen at events together or talk to each other at awards shows. I so blame the fans and homophobic people in the industry or government.
right I hate how these extreme shippers just kinda forget the ACTORS are literally just doing their jobs by acting n like irl fanservice makes it harder to draw the line
You always do a great job at breaking down these issues 😉 I try to stay away from the fan service, because I don't want the confusion of what's fantasy or not. I get enough of that from the dramas themselves.
Sharp commentary. You made an excellent point when you said "the anger we had toward the system got re-directed at the individual." Sad, but unfortunately true. Fanservice has all of us wondering what is real and what isn't, even if it's none of our business. Lovely Writer spoke to that, as did Call it What You Want. I think we as fans are caught up in a system that screams "OMG, the relationship between Actor X and Actor Y is REAL!" and has a bajillion videos with "proof" that the actors are in a real relationship. That hurts the actors who are actually LGTBQ+ and want to come out. It's a catch 22. I had no idea Tong had come out. Good for him! I'm glad he's being supported by his friends and coworkers! Great video. You just gained a new fan.
Thank you so much for this video! I've been following just a bit of the discussion online in the West and felt baffled by how anyone who wasn't 100% out and open with their sexuality but "dared" to play a queer character, or even just included LGBTQ themes in their art, got violently accused of "queerbaiting", as if homophobia wasn't still a thing in our society and in the entertainment industry? As if allyship wasn't a thing? It's as if people don't understand what the concept of "acting" and being an "actor" means! Do we require that only those who are parents can play parents, that only people who have a medical degree can play doctors? What about serial killers, what about r**e victims? I know this is not the same thing, since not all those groups need or want accurate and positive representation in media the way sexual minorities and disabled people do. But making the individual actors/actresses carry the entire burden of being politically correct and being 100% transparent about their most personal and private affairs in order to play a specific role on stage or screen, that seems very invasive and unreasonable to me. Especially since a stage or screen production involves so many people besides the actor, who is only the outwardly visible figurehead--what about the original author, the scriptwriter, the producer, the director, the camera person, the marketing people?
I'm from South Africa and I love BL's as we don't have much representation here, I think BL's are great and yes some series queer bait and often these actors having to do fan service are probably not gay but then again it is fan service and they're just doing part of their job. people need to separate the actor from the role period.
I always think about war of y doing that promo with the actors as action figures.... People are too obsessed with the personal lives of these actors. All that truly matters is that these actors respect the lgbtq community
I think that people really should be able to differentiate between actors and characters. The fact that some fans are still assuming actor's sexuality is really disappointing. As the video said, it will also affect the actors who really are together and are trying to publicize their relationship. The concept of extreme fanservice, same pairing for the entirety of their lifetime (like off and gun), ambiguous comments on how their relationship actually is, these all are the things that really makes this scenario worse. Another thing that I would like to point out is the categorisation of these pairs into top and bottom. That is stereotyping and fetishizing the community and also trying to inject their heteronormative stereotypes into homosexual relationships. But I think queerbaiting accusations also shadows dramas where the complexity of relationships in real life are shown. For example the devil judge. I think the drama potrayed their struggles with comprehending their feelings despite the fact that mainstream korean drama industry still being reluctant to produce bl dramas.
It's great to hear your opinions again. One other drawback to the queerbaiting/fanservice, which you have talked about in the past, is the need for actors to hide their real relationships, and the abuse some "fans" give the partners of the actors. Those fans do not expect the men and women who are paired romantically in a project to be a couple when the cameras are not rolling; it would be considered harassment in many cases.
Nah, BL didn't invent the concept of the "love team," and there are lots of examples of Asian and SE Asian actors playing straight couples whose careers were impacted by obsessive/deluded fans getting angry when they were cast alongside the "wrong" partner after several films with one person.
@@tophergerkey agree. which is why quite a number of Asian "straight" actors and singers have hidden their spouses / family from the public... cuZ the fans would freak out. I've read stories of fans committing suicide or attacking the performers when learning they had actual relationships. Some people are just crazy. Fanservice just feeds that crazy.
An actor's sexuality is none of our business. And the fact that actors or actresses are forced to fake their sexuality or lie just becuase companies and "fans" want them to is kinda disgusting. Actresses and actors in gl or bl, their sexuality they play on screen isn't always their own. Actors and actresses are there for entertainment on screen and off of screen it's not our business. If the actors want to share themselves that's great but people shouldn't pressure them in anyway.
On shipping and fan-service, my thought has always been: the moment you are able to live in that delusion while also being able to pull yourself out of it at will, is the moment you truly get peak entertainment.
I agree with a lot of things you said. As a lesbian I know that's no one's business what a person's sexuality is. The BL fandom sadly is very toxic. Take zeenew for example everyone excepts them to announce their relationship and sexuality. People say you're queerbaiting if your not gay but if you say you are gay then you loss those same fans who pressured you into coming out. Shippers sometimes forget the actors playing their favorite characters aren't the characters themselves. I think there's also the problem of pressure the fans put on their favorite actors. Take offgun as an example. I don't they doubt they are friends but imagine how hard it must be for them. whether they fight or have other relationships; infront of the cameras they have to appear happy and vague about their relationship. As that's what sales. Companies in a way encourage the fans behavior as they often control what an actor can say in front of the cameras. For me the worst form of queerbaiting is when actors who are homophobic pretend to be allies. I get everyone is entitled to their opinion but being in an industry where gay stories are told and hating on those same stories seems wrong. You don't have to be a BL actor if you want to act; you just have to be a good actor.
I love that you acknowledged that there is a difference between the BL industry and LGBTQ+ themed entertainment, because there is a difference. The BL industry, especially in Thailand 🇹🇭 and other Asian countries, was never intended to highlight, support or empower LGBTQ+ people. It was a moneymaking enterprise designed by, created for, and catered to straight women. So the entire early industry was queerbaiting and to a large extent it is still that way today. Why, because it has been, and continues to be very lucrative. Money is often a huge driver of change or of maintaining the status quo. I think this is one reason, in addition to the cultural reasons that people often ignore, why the BL industry has been slow to change in certain places. There are newer companies who are attempting to move away from that model and make content that has a broader appeal without reinforcing outdated troupes and stereotypes. They are including more realistic aspects of the lives of LGBTQ+ in their characters which makes them more relatable to more members of the LQBTQ+ community. As a person of color, I started watching BL because it was refreshing and uplifting to see same-sex stories that weren’t primarily Anglo-European. Because of this I was willing to overlook some of the cringe-inducing troupes in some storylines, but more and more I find myself being less forgiving and being more selective. Personally, I’m happy to see when companies treat their actors with respect as actors not as props to manipulate fans.
Omg!! You just made a video on my thoughts. i have recently started watching a lot of BL shows and movies from asia...i am not from lgbtq community but i support it and have family members and friends who are...I have been watching a lot of Thai series..and their fan service has always concerned me...the awkward questioning..the speculation...the representation...i am a huge fan of Brightwin...and Bounn and Prem...I hate that the studio pressurizes them like this..its worse if the actors are straight and have acted out an amazing chemistry onscreen..and then they are forced to be ambiguous to their fans...even lead them on by ambigous statements in interviews because of that pressure. Though there are some amazing fandom who are more understanding (brightwin fandom for example) and support their actors no matter what..some fandoms just tear the actors apart ..when u fail to realize they are just following the script handed in by the company. they are humans. they have a personal life, family, love life..which is not anyone's business at all.
Excellent job breaking down a complex issue. The Urban Dictionary definition is certainly more accurate than the OED definition, so nice job highlighting that distinction. I thought the best contribution made in your analysis was to explore the somewhat contradictory link between fan service (pretend to be gay for fans in contexts away from the set) and fan protests against what they perceive as queerbaiting (how dare you pretend to be gay for us in your "real" life). I think that ends up creating a situation for performers where they are damned if they do but also damned if they dont. And of course, treating "the fans" as a monolithic group is itself self-defeating because as BL Fandom proliferated post-2019, it may well be that one loud segment demands more fan service while another loud segment decries the queerbaiting.
I love this video, and how extensive it was. It's a very important discussion to have. As a queer person myself, I think there should be a happy middle in this media that respects queer peoples' identities but also appeals to straight female fans. I think BL over the years has improved with that. Personally I'm not a fan of fan service but I understand the importance it has to commercial success and I don't think it is harmful. Also, thanks for pointing out the problem of people accusing individuals of queerbaiting and discussing why this is an issue. I was watching a video of an actor (forgot his name) who had recently come out out who was discussing exactly what you were saying. Prior to coming out the actor was in gay production and saw messages online of viewers commenting that they wish more gay actors had been cast. In the interview he said, he really wanted to say "Hi guys I'm one of you too" but wasn't ready to come out, so had to sit quietly. In general I think it's not cool to come after actors or make such assumptions like that. I think people should address this at an industry level.
As a 40 yo hetero western woman I don't know if my view on things is shadowed by my age or sexual orientation or by my culture...Having watched a lot of Asian movies (not only BLs) I got the impression that the amount of obsessing over actors' real lives is at a level I've never seen in our society, (with the exception of political views or criminal acts that would be something that ruins an actor's career but who they are dating? Maybe their sexual orientation and their ethnicity too but that's thankfully slowly changing). And I get the impression that for BL's most of the audience is female teen-agers/people in their twenties, and that adds up to the immaturity of this kind of obsession. I remember my teen agers days when I liked an actor so much I had to know everything about them, to see anything that they did... And socials make this even more possible and invasive. Of course, capitalism is going to get on that, that's what it does. I am particularly amazed though by the people fangirling over the couples on those BL series that tackle this toxic behavior...I mean didn't you get the memo? Stop contributing to this toxic behavior! But I'm not completely shocked, I'm used to the duplicity of people ("Purist" Christians hating on everybody, people putting ethnic groups in closed spaces where they are allowed to dress a certain way while pretending to fight racism..)
So when I got into Bl's i had no idea what they were my friend told me it was boys love and my first was 2gether. I wasn't aware of the term queer baiting I was just happy to see queer love being represented in the media but especially being represented as heterosexual concepts and topics ( Story lines you would see in regular straight movies/series being with same sex characters) I thought it was refreshing to see this and i honestly I'm a fan of the story more than the the idea of it's same sex leads ( as it should be, which i mean it should be normalized so all you think about it the plot not the fact that it is a lgbt+ characters ). but as i got deeper into the industry ( and after watching several series discussing this topic such as lovely writer and war of Y) that queerbatitng is the ENTIRE Bl industry. From fan shipping, to fan service . i get you are promoting but I don't like false hope. cause we will support them if they are and if they aren't but i don't want the obvious fan service to try and make me believe that they will be a will they won't they thing. It's exhausting. I get really skeptical and just only focus on the show and the message they give. I don't give in to fan service anymore.
i absolutely love this video, really hit the nail on the head with some points and encapsulated my thoughts on bl and the community perfectly. i like the fact that you explained the repercussions of coming out in such a close minded society, and emphasized that the actors are not equivalent to the characters they portray that they are people too. very eloquent script and an instant like to the video. (also, i had no idea that tong came out?? so happy for him)
The rabid obsession fans display is very disturbing. I just discovered Thai BL dramas and have enjoyed watching the kissing and cuddling. Don't care about the actors private lives at all. If the cast of KP are couples, great. MileApo is my favorite couple. And as a white, middle age woman , hetero, multi married, I think I have learned a lot. Because I didn't really consider other peoples practices my business. BUT I have gay and lesbian friends, have always believed that a person's sexuality is their own business and belong to a church that is inclusive. People who invest so much energy in the lives of people they don't know need to examine their own lives.
An angle from a 60yr old grandma, white, married 40yrs to my amazing white husband, from Canada. I found BL by mistake. I started watching a show it was well written by eng subtitles standard, the visuals were amazing, the soundtracks clicked even in a language I don’t speak and yes even at my age I can appreciate a good looking man. I’ve watched BL in an assortment of languages and had never heard of “queer baiting “ until now. I watch the shows for the reasons I stated. I don’t care if they are a couple off screen, if they are”out” or not, it’s none of my business. I’m sure they don’t care about my straight white marriage. If it’s a well written, acted, and produced series I’m going to watch it whether they are gay on screen or off. You need to keep an open mind people, if someone has to pretend to be a couple off screen or a gay couple on screen to get viewers are they viewers they want? To many people “meddle”, it’s fictional, at the end of the day it’s a show not your life, enjoy it for what it is.
I really do hope War of Y gets the recognition it deserves. One of the recent episode that came out had a scene with Net & James where they both were questioning Achi’s sexuality WHILE doing an interview simply because he looked stunning and knew how to dance. He then responded professionally by saying how it doesn’t matter whether if he’s gay or not, and wearing clothes, dancing or singing shouldn’t be a determining factor of his sexuality
When I saw the title I came ready to fight because I'm really tired of people going bl actors are queerbaiting thing. You're so right, you cannot use the same tools you use to criticise fictional characters and fictional media on real life people where there will be real life consequences. Actors can't queerbait you. An actor promoting their show by doing couple pr with their cp is normal even outside of bl and the straight ones never get accused of 'straigthbaiting'. Like it's crazy how entitled fans feel entitled to the actors and their private life. Fans need to chill imo and just enjoy the fictional show you have been given access to and leave the actors alone. But on the other hand the thai bl industry also needs to answer for their crimes, like these media companies do push their actors boundaries and also largely contribute to the entitlement of fans to pry into the private lives of the actors. They need to protect their talent as much as they do use them for money.
Loved your commentary. I love bl despite being straight woman do I like keeping myself in check so as to not romanticize queer relationships. The reason why I love this genre is because of how it portrays different sides of masculinity and how healthy it can actually be.
This was a really interesting piece, thank you! One thing that occurred to me is that the 'ambiguity' encouraged by the BL industry, particularly Thai BL, comes with positives as well as the possible negatives (i.e. Queer Bating). The narrative that they create is one where the (mostly) male actors can openly show love and affection without having to declare a definitive sexuality. Isn't this actually the endgame of our GLBTQ+ dream - an affectionate society without toxic barriers that makes no demands on 'knowing' anyone's actual sexuality.
Very well made video! I typically don't mind shipping especially when its done in a healthy way like hyping up the actors and doing good deeds like donating in their name. I am a hopeless romantic I mean we have so many stories in media of two straight actors working on a show together and finding love in real life bla bla. The romantic part of me kinda wants to see that happen someday in the thai bl (also gl but we have a handful of them) world. The aspect I don't like is that fans suddenly forgetting these are real life people and assuming that every action one actor makes is a hint to the fans they need to solve. So they start to cross boundaries by stalking them, attacking anyone they think threatens the ship even if it is one of the actors themselves, requesting the company make the actors pump out content to give them their daily fix etc. If you go deep on bl twitter you can even see competition about which ship is more real or better. Sample extreme shipper logic: - "OMG Actor A posted a song about the summer and said in that interview that also included actor B that he loves summer so that means that actor B makes him feel warm!!!!" - "Oh no! Actor B said "excuse me" to actor C while passing by as he want to the restroom because he definitely wanted actor A to be jealous" They want their ship to be real but what if their fave is queer but is actually dating someone else and not their ship partner. Will they accept their fave open-mindedly or do they just exist to be a ship? These fans have way too much in common with kpop stans its eerie! There is also the other end of the spectrum where these fans believe that every bl actor is straight and if they are not they need to come out or they are queer baiting. These days we see more queer actors, writers and people who work more in bls. but We have someone like cooheart that gets a lot of hate everyday for being himself and gets called a "groomer" because he is acting in a show with a 17yr old acting partner. With that being said I need to get off bl twitter but am just staying there to keep up to date with the upcoming MileApoBas movie and cos mile interacts so wholesomely with fans. Also there to keep up with the new any new bl/gl content. P.s. Prejudiced bl stans suck. The most common kinds I see are: "They are straight but gay for only their bl shipping partner" or "They don't x, y or z way so they are straight". etc.
I think that there is one rule that everyone should folly, especially in BL. The rule is that people should remember that actors and their characters or roles are different and that they will never intertwine. Like who their chapter is in a relationship with is not the same with the actor.
Yeah, being an actor in BL or any genre that appeal to mainly straight female fanbase can be really difficult to come out because of the expectation to be "manly." While PP Krit be out there and ready to prove everyone wrong. (There is a topic of beauty standard as well but that's not what we're talkin about today) I think the reason why people are so ready to label fanservice as queer-baiting is because it is a performance to some degree whether the actor doing it are queer or not and people don't like to be regarded as delulu. Tho I do think BL need a term of their own that is not "queer-baiting."
I hate fan service. It blurs out the line between the actor as a professional and the person behind the mask. Fans don't realise actors have to do all this stuff to please them no matter if they want to or not and then get mad when actors do things they want to. We don’t own these actors. They are individuals with lives and a right to privacy but privacy and fan service don't match. Sometimes it's nice cause it's just co-workers/friends on a show together and they focus on the material but I always feel really uncomfortable when they very clearly put on display a relationship that doesn’t exist. Fans really need to dissasociate actors with their characters but they can't and I always feel bad for the actors who can't live freely. Many of them have to hide their lives or break up with their partners because of the harassment. Fans are ruining their idols lives but they couldn't care less because they weren't seen as people to begin with, only has property.
This is such a good video. I hope this opens the eyes of cishet fans who are not aware of how harmful stereotyping and forcing a person to come out is, and many other things! Thankyou!
I think we should focus our criticisms on the authors/directors/screenwriters etc... but not the actors. They are told what to do. And they are often quite powerless. So it's no use to target them.
Thank you for saying that an actor’s sexuality is their business. There are many factors in a person’s life that doesn’t allow them to safely express themselves. Heck! We have gender based violence, queer safe space is a myth in most asian countries… and so… if an actor is in BL industry and is queer, or even closeted queer … I will support them. But if corporations or production houses try to queerbait then i would raise a red flag… because in my opinion corporations and production houses have power unlike actors or individuals who are trying to find their footing and trying to just work… abuse of power to queerbait… is a complete no-no… I would also have a beef with an actor if they actively benefitting off bl industry but still continue to be homophobic… these are straight hypocrites… of course we would need to wait and see… before cancelling any one out based on rumours
I don't know if I like the old BL industry or the new one in the old we didn't have these large amounts of toxic fans but we had a**holes actors who just wanted to use BL for the frame and in this new one we have toxics fans. but seeing how some actors feel free to make they're coming out gives me so much joy cause 6yrs ago we couldn't have gotten it. I'm sad about how entertainment industries use the Community for profit but still don't involve those in the Community only shows how evil and self-minded humans can be. I hope and pray that one-day things will get better
I know it's not relevant to the video but thank to you now I want to watch war of Y, I wasn't really fond to the synopsis but watching your video helped me Thanks ~
❤The BL industry… u touched on question I asked myself… I’m a SF… why do I love them? 1st… I’m a sucker for good romance but also my univ dorm, of 1000 in the 1980s, embraced diversity and I had LGBTQ friends. Friends whose suffering was right there in front of me. Rejection from family, gay bashing, bad love w strt men, and how the only representation in western film focused on the emotional scars, lust, and self hatred. As a mom of 4 boys, if they should b gay, I wanted 2 b prepared to help them run the gauntlet experienced by the LGBTQ community. A grim prospect before BL. As kids they deserved to see their identity represented in healthy ways… with all the typical struggles… as we ALL should. Whatever the beginnings of BL may be the result is healthy as long as we, as viewers, respect that they are performers. As u said… Their private life is NONE OF OUR BUSINESS. You can tell which prod companies respect their actors and which force them to lie and treat them like commodities to be sold until they r used up. Same in every industry. Thanks 4 your great commentary.
Thank you for this video and it's really important to discuss and educate. I do believe that yes, whilst queerbaiting is a thing, there are ppl nowadays who use it far too easily without properly knowing the definitions and the consequences. You mentioned everything well in regards to capitalism and fanservice is mostly that (its not necessarily a bad thing just business). but I honestly prefer actors being vague about their sexualities because: -it is simply non of our business. -it helps protect that 1 person who might be questioning their sexuality and is closeted. -it brings exposure to queer ppl and relationships which in turn normalises them.
The problem with fan service is that it risks blurring the lines between what is performance and what is genuine, both for the fans and particularly for the celebrities. Romance between costars, and fan service exists in western media as well (the Twilight series capitalised on the relationship between Robert Pattinson and Kristin Stewart every time a new movie was due to be released for example), it’s just the BL industry, particularly Thai but also in other countries to a lesser extent, takes the fan service to the extreme, creating couples to market the shows as well as anything else that can help fund future projects. Unfortunately having to constantly do fan service to sell this image can become counter productive to whatever the real relationship is behind the camera. I think this is where the ZeeNunew situation currently is. No matter what the true nature of their private relationship is, it will forever be tainted by the fact that the industry expects fan service, so any interaction can be dismissed as not genuine. I’m on the fence about whether the Woody interview was an actual coming out - the phrasing and translation are clearly vague enough that it can be dismissed if it wasn’t received as expected. But if there is anything beyond a close friendship between the two of them, I think they would benefit from taking it all offline for the most part. Maybe still be scene publicly together, but do fewer interviews and minimise responses to questions about their relationship. It won’t happen in the near future (particularly with the cutie pie special episodes to be released in the future sometime), but one can hope.
I believe Zee and Nu are straight, and all of what we see is just fake. It just doesn't ring true with me that somehow magically, two actors cast together in the same series fall madly in love and start a real life relationship. Rubbish. It's all fan service as far as I'm concerned.
@@connie7128 I used to be that cynical, but have become more of a romantic as I got older. You never know where or when you will meet the people you connect with on a romantic level. I don’t know whether that was the case with zn - their private identities and relationship is their own and time will tell if they do continue to be a part of each other’s lives and share what they will in future. Even if it is primarily fan service, having someone in the industry who supports and encourages you behind the scenes to be the best version of yourself can only be a good thing.
I WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT AN ACTOR PLAYING A QUEER ROLE DOES NOT HAVE TO DISCLOSE THERE SEXUALITY BECAUSE THEY DO NOT OWE IT TO US AND IT IS NON OF OUR FUCKING BUSINESS. This what I'm always trying to tell people getting into Asian bl or queer dramas ,we also need to always remember that these actors are human at the end of the day and are doing there job as actors. When actors are blatantly assholes and borderline homophobic or homophobic,.shit needs to be called out . Coz an actor does not have to be gay or queer to be a respectful actor .
I was watching the video when I heard "I am Filipino" I was like, wow hello nice to see a Filipina talking about issues like these, kudos! I have one simple rule to myself about actors, performers that I like. A rule I apply to everyone, actually. People should be free to be themselves, and love whoever they want. No matter how obsessed I am with an actor or BTS member (haha), they're not marrying me anyway, so what's the point in wondering what their orientation is or whether or not they're in a relationship in real life? Yes capitalism sells them like merchandise but I'd like to somehow fight that by remembering that these are real people right here with real minds, real bodies, real feelings, real lives of their own, just like myself. I would not want others to force into me a person that isn't, so why do that to someone else? It all really boils down to basic respect towards other people.
I totally agree !! everyone assuming sexualities and bullying the actors for queerbait when they don't even know if they are queer or not... their personal lives are not our business, it's kinda sad how people are so disrespectful and know no boundaries
What I do want people to avoid is blatant biphobia when speaking about "queerbaiting". So many people act as if only gay men exist in the LGBTQ+ community and that when they get with a woman it suddenly means they are not "queer". People need to stop speculating on someone's queerness and let them be.
When it comes down to any type of series including Bl. I don’t focus on the fan service either. Some of it I understand is necessary because at the end of the day just like actors in the west they are trying to promote their shows to their targeted audience. An actors sexuality has no baring on the types of roles they play so long as they are able to project a convincing performance and the story of the plot presents a good story. Remember there are gay actors that are just as convincing playing straight roles when given the opportunity. At the end of the day it’s a story being performed usually based on fiction so not everything is going to reflect The real Queer baiting is when companies try to encourage their actors to promote the possibility they may be a real couple. I also don’t like it when videos or interviews go up giving a false narrative to promote this either. Yes there are some ships that will only work together like Boum and Prem or Off and Gunn but that could simply be they feel comfortable working with those actors doing those sort of roles. At the end of the day these guys have a right to a life away from their work and it is a shame when it is found out that they dating outside their ship they are being treated as though they lied to us all along. Instead of just letting them be .
Mine watching BLs since Sotus, and what I feel is, currently they are making production better day by day, not just the storyline and all. That's true that earlier they have many stereotypes in it but they are reducing them.
I think the term "queerbaiting" is thrown around a LOT when there are very few cases of it actually happening, imo. Most of the time it's just wishful thinking from the fans who get angry that their headcanons didn't come true(Voltron)*+. I can think of only two shows that I know of that actually fit what I would consider queerbaiting(Sherlock and Supernatural) and it's less about the sprinkling in some references and hints and more about the contempt for the fans while doing it. That's what betrayed those "hints" as queerbaiting rather than subtext or fun. I agree with your linking it to things like rainbow capitalism more than anything. What's normally called queerbaiting is closer to Disney using "we've got a gay character!" and then that character having one line about it. The film/tv show is not queerbaiting, the marketing team is setting up expectations that it knows the film/tv show did not have. I think this is where some bl fanservice can sit, especially earlier on, when it was more obvious that this was a contracted mandate, rather than something the actors were doing for fun or for the fans. *I've seen people(not many, but enough) accusing Glee of queerbaiting because their ship didn't happen. GLEE. Which fully accounted for nearly half of network tv's queer characters during it's later seasons. +Loki, too. Loki is bisexual/pansexual, just because he falls in love with Sylvie does not erase his bisexuality! The show was not queerbaiting. The bisexuality was not inserted as a marketing tactic. It was inserted because it is both an established character trait(from the comics) and because the showrunner is bisexual and wanted to make it clear it was canon in the MCU. twitter.com/iamkateherron/status/1407633677484539906
First off, I love your content.😊🙏 Calm, non-hysterical, intelligent articulate discussion is so cool to hear and all too rare. I had not heard the term "queer-baiting" before but it doesn't surprise me. Anything is up for exploitation in capitalist systems. It is fucking ugly. And it is pandering isn't it? I only discovered the BL genre (I don't like the term "BL") about 18 months ago by accident but I love it and have watched what I can - all Asian and mainly Thai productions (I was surprised when marriage equality didn't pass) I am completely ignorant of what goes on behind the scenes and had not realised just how contrived the industry is. The fan service thing shocked me! So rabid and vicious, and "shipping" as its own entity and as a construct of the industry also shocked me. I do subscribe to certain channels on here to learn about what is happening and see extra stuff on actors/shows I like. I am watching War of Y and omg I had no idea of the level of toxicity and cynicism. I had already decided that I loathed "shipping" as it seemed to put tremendous pressure on these actors to be a certain way and how it must consume so much energy to not destroy the "fantasy" of the fans. Fan service has really opened my eyes. But what horrified me were the managers and how pervasive the fan-service is and what is expected. I had assumed the actors were gay as I could not imagine many straight men doing these roles, even though I was a huge fan of Queer As Folk (UK and US versions) back in the day. It is so brutal. I also had watched Lovely Writer a while back and loved it. The casting scene was so funny and depressing at the same time. What I have also found interesting is that no one seems to be talking about War Of Y as a series. Usually each series is mentioned in a list or because of the cast but no one is talking about it. I want to see what people think as it is such a far cry from the reality of we see. I think, too, the term "queer-baiting" itself can be used to silence discussion. Like political correctness, there is a valid reason that is distorted for sinister purposes, usually to discourage open discussion. I also agree that people's sexuality is not my business. No one's business. Let actors act. If it is consensual and not hurting anyone who cares? I had assumed Tong was out already as he has been in a few shows that I have seen. I never occurred to me that it could be viewed in a negative light. He was the actual light of KinnPorsche and, for me, made that show fantastic. Who cares who he sleeps with in his personal life? There really doesn't seem to be anything good about fan-service and what should be a bounty and success for the actor seems to be a straight (forgive the pun) jacket. And I haven't even started on the lesbian or lack of series.
I just saw this video on my home page and I'm so glad I watched it. I couldn't agree more. The way you explain and break down everything is just amazing.
Thank you so much. 💕 I love how you cleared up everything on what is happening about this genre. Same thinking here. I only intend to watch BL stories and series, and stayed away watching fan service and some Shorts. It feels strange actually.
Not to mention people going after the actors when they have partners of the opposite gender as if only 2 sexualities exist. People can be bi, pan, demi etc
There is definitely queer baiting at play especially in these interviews of various BL actors. However fans are delusional to think two actors are actually romantically involved in real life. It's called ACTING for a reason. Enjoy the BL for it's story and characters but don't delude yourself to think these actors are actually in love. They may not even be close friends just two people who choose a role they knew they would do well and advance their career. People get too invested and thus their expectations become unrealistic. Therefore they react poorly once they're faced with the reality that these are just two people doing their jobs and nothing more. However I don't appreciate when actors skirt around various questions but that's the game they play to continue working
I'm not part of the LGBTQA+ community and I'm muslim so I grown up in a totally different environment of this. But bro, I'm tired of seeing : - those comedic trans women, - the cliché like "u're my wife " when they're both men , - plot with only sexual tension without character feeling development, - the fan service to promote those BL, - the lack of originality the story, - Th girls and boy who harass the gay couple campus on social media like paparazzi, - The shipping etc... Bcz damn, it's not a representation of the reality!
For me, I think the bigger issue the from the so called fan community. The community is toxic and it's almost at the stage where any onscreen couple is alleged to be a couple in real life. To my knowledge, not a single onscreen couple have confirmed they are in a relationship. None. Fan service is not a relationship and no one should make comments, statements or post videos 'confirming' relationships. Further, it's none of our business if they are in a relationship or not. They do not belong to us, they are human beings and deserve our respect
Thank you so much for such a factual, informative video on this topic. I’m not sure why fan service in Thailand is so prominent, but it unfortunately is. I 100% agree with how you said people accusing actors of queerbaiting is harmful & worrying. Fans see the amount of BL dramas coming out of Thailand and immediately assume that the country’s government & citizens are accepting and supportive because “why wouldn’t they be if so many dramas are being produced in Thailand?” After what happened to Kit Connor just a month or two ago, I believe people need to get full confirmation that the actor is straight before immediately assuming they’re doing it for the fan service. It’s crazy how men can’t have *platonic* relationships (friendships) without fans going to the worst case scenario (which is queerbaiting in this context).
From someone who has been in this bubble for so long, i feel amazed by how this little world changed, of course there is still problems to be discussed, many of them, but things are better, so much better that it makes me emotional a bit.
Speaking as someone who ships ZeeNunew HARD, like, I will need to go back to therapy if they ever break up/turn out to not be real... I'm new to Thai BL (Y), but already disturbed by some of the fan behavior I've heard about. The other day I saw a video of my dear OTP taken candidly at a restaurant, and when the person filming was spotted, Nunew smiled and waved, reacted to this intrusion very pleasantly, but as I commented on the video, this made me sad. I feel awful that the two of them can't go anywhere without being recorded and shrieked at. Another viewer responded to my comment with basically, "Just be happy for them, they knew what they signed up for." Did they, though? Does any 19-year-old giving the entertainment business a try expect to be paired with his idol (and let's be honest, crush), to get a difficult role as his first acting experience, and to end up in a relationship in which he can't so much as touch his boyfriend's shoulder without a crowd screaming insanely when he does? My guess is that no actor who gets into BL/Y, no matter how street-smart, expects life to become that weird. Just as awful is the flip side, where the relationship onscreen isn't real and an actor has to hide his girlfriend or risk losing everything he's worked for. I'm so grateful to Zee and Nunew for allowing us to see so much of their lives. Having so much of them to watch has done wonders for my depression and anxiety, and I'm autistic, thus very good at obsessing over what I love, LOL. But there are times where even I say to my laptop screen, "Guys, thank you, but really, you don't have to let us see everything about your lives." An example that springs to mind I saw in one of the Behind Cutie Pie episodes, in which Nunew is, on camera, being coached on the sex scene he's about to do, his first (though not first intimate scene), about how he shouldn't be embarrassed if he...reacts to being touched the way he's about to be. It was a vulnerable moment that I, who will probably never even meet Nunew, had no business being privy to. Zee and Nunew have stated that they dislike fanservice and will not do it, that the way they behave on-camera is the same as off-camera, and their close friends/colleagues happily confirm this to anyone who will listen. Therefore, I can say without regret that the industry really needs to start weaning fans off of the steady drip of fanservice they've become accustomed to. It's exploitative of the actors, and it's not even good for the fans themselves. It's just feeding a delusion.
Just to let you know, it's been confirmed that they (ZeeNunew) are an actual couple. I just want them to be happy and not be surrounded around toxicity of shippers out there, smfh- As a bi woman supporting LGBT films from around the world as much as I can, I just find this whole 'fan service' thing baffling and I also just can't with these ppl who are SOOOO obsessed with these actors to the point where they legit analyze their EVERY move. It's disgusting!!!
Excellent Excellent commentary. As a straight black woman I completely agree with everything you said and have made similar comments on this topic. It's highly problematic across the board. It's also so disturbing how toxic some fans are in demanding to know the sexuality of an actor.
This is my thoughts on the subject almost exactly. I'm a queer nonbinary person, although my research is about English in Thailand not media or queerness (except as a hobby). My only note is that in Thailand soft power primarily means promoting Thailand internationally through culture exports (see: every article about Milli as the first Thai act at Coachella bringing up soft power). It can mean influencing domestic perspectives and politics, the way you use it, but I wanted to let you know about the connotation in a Thai context.
Can I just say how necessary your video is? This is a serious issue, should be talked more. Lgbtqia+ people really need to understand what harms our community, also educate ourselves on how not to replicate bigotry and prejudice. Thank you for raising the discussion ❤️
I absolutely love your content, it's so important to consider diff factors before forming an opinion and you always talk about things keeping them in mind
Just don't make assumptions about people; whether it be negative, positive or neutral assumptions can all be seen as rude towards the individual. Of course, this is easier in theory, but at least recognise that it's only assumptions. And just try not to label anyone or group people together. We don't know what someone is thinking if they don't tell us, and even then, it could be untrue. Just let people live their lives. Maybe I'm dense for saying this: but I think that if someone truly doesn't want to partake in something they will say so or show it through their actions whether money and/or popularity plays a part in it or not.
it's also upsetting how BL actors are forced on fan service even if they aren't comfortable with it. What happens to toxic fans who think they are in a relationship in real life, like, are these actors forced to keep their sexuality private on every talk show they go to? I get it, their sexuality is none of our business, but then, the more Talk shows you see, all those queer hosts running TH-cam channels who promote BL are often seen cracking the same, repetitive jokes o how they seem to be real or how close they are sitting, like they are some kind of animal put on screen for us to observe and run our imaginations. Even a slight brush of their hands compels the editors to have those pink filters with hearts and music, like it's a clear exaggeration. Sometimes it's so forced and cringy that I stop immediately. Like, trying so hard to show the audience how invested they are into each other, the skin ship which could be seen as normal human behavior between anyone is exaggerated. It's upsetting to see them queerbaiting while they belong to the same community. On one hand I feel bad for them because let's be real, the industry was never kind to LGBT no matter how much we deny it, so they have to survive off whatever the audience wants to be fed. But at the same time, I feel sick when I see the harsh reality of this toxic BL industry.
I love GL BL series a lot! I am a straight female but love to watch series or movies of all kind n BL series or movies are my fav 😊 but what I don’t understand is how some fans cross the line of what support means, it’s ok to ship the characters but not the actor, we don’t need to know if they are gay n in a relationship just support them with their careers at the end of the day they work as actors and they are acting in those series or movies
As a queer person I don't rly like the word queer baiting cause it's rly often used where it's absolutely doesn't make sense. I personally like fan service as long as it is in a balanced amount and the actors feel comfortable. I'm absolutely against it to put bl actor's under pressure to "act" gay or sth. Same goes for their sexuality. For me as a viewer I don't need to know their sexuality or who they're dating. I just want to watch these series (I don't rly have sth against the gay clichees they use cause I personally like the exaggeration as someone who's gay too, as long as it's in a respectful way). There are mostly two points I rly criticize in bl series, one is how trans people are portrait as always being kind of a joke, I'm trans and sometimes it hurts a bit that in these series people always laugh about people like me and also that the men who are often playing trans women look kinda "cheap" on purpose so that everyone can laugh about them. The other thing I don't like is that often the storys are just built up on sexual content rather than an actual plot, ofc I like skinship but only if it's appropriate and fitting for the story it's always depending I rly hope in future bl fans and the entertainments can see these actors as what they are, just actors who a playing a role.
Imo, a role is a role. Your job as an actor is to embody a character and bring their story to life on stage or on camera. You do not have to relate to a character in order to play them. You also do not have to agree with the characters personality or lifestyle to play them either. If we use that standard then that would mean every actor who plays a role that is morally reprehensible or stereotypical supports those things in their real life. Lots of gay actors play straight characters and vice versa. It's just a job and actors take roles for various reasons and do not have to turn a role down just because they are not an exact replica of the character themselves.
As far at queer baiting goes. That's a reach. They step in and out of those characters at fan meetings and interviews because the fans enjoy it. Doesn't mean they're dating, or LGBT and it doesn't have to be that way either. Unless they offer their orientation or relationship status, it's not anyone's place to assume.
And also I feel like fans assuming that two people are dating can actually be super dangerous, especially for actors who live in more conservative places or even just have conservative family. If I am correct, didn't Xiao Zhan and Wang Yibo end up not even allowed to be near each other anymore because fan shipping got so big that the government intervened? Because that was awful, this type of toxic fan culture driving a huge wedge between two friends! For any actors who are actually queer or even dating, that puts them in a super dangerous and generally shitty stiuation, forced to come out, potentially losing their relationship, etc.
I'm personally in the opinion that real people shouldn't be accused of queerbaiting purely for the reasons you said - no one owes anyone else an explanation of their sexual or gender identity. A lot of that also assumes being straight, cis, and alloromantic and allosexual are the default and I personally hope that stops happening as much if at all. That being said, I definitely think within the bl industry there's a lot of awful stuff going on, things like rainbow capitalism or things similar, the fan service and encouragement of fetishization of queer people - mainly gay men- and more. None of it is what I would consider queerbaiting, but it's still bad.
Even if these actors ARE queer, what about if they just simply don’t have interest in the other actor they have to be a “couple” with??😢 they have no choice but to “love” the actor that got chosen to be their partner all because of fans/fan service and money. Just cuz you’re gay doesn’t mean you’ll fall in love with any other gay person you see🫠
With what happened to kit conner ppl need to learn an actor's sexulity isn't their business
The sad thing, is that all those who did make those accusations towards Kit, deprived him of the opportunity to come out, on his own terms, in his own way, when he was actually ready to reveal himself to everyone else, that were not his family, or friends. A huge factor, that totally went against the main theme of "Heartstopper". As an older cis female viewer of BLs, and LGBTQ+ series, and films, I want to understand the, quite frankly obsessive need some viewers have in feeling like, it's their "right" to know everything about a total stranger's life, just because we have watched them in a series/film that is centered on love between two same-sex fictional characters. The last time, I saw something like this happening, on such an extreme level, was when "Killing Eve" was initially airing. The way that some of those fans, went after the lead actress, Jodie Comer was absolutely shocking to me.
They need to understand that celebrities private life isn't their business.
I mean, look what happens with Koreans idols. They're the prisoners of their own fans. That's so sad to see. Really
@Nana KIM It really IS sad, and we can't all say that because it's someone else's culture, that it's understandable, acceptable, and not talk about the negatives of it. It's like some of these fans expect the actors to be forever beholden to them, for the rest of their careers.
That was so fucking sad. That’s literally my favorite boi I didn’t even care if he was gay or straight or whatever bruh
I think Kit coming out was warranted. Also, nobody forced him… he may have had pressure but at the end of the day, it was his decision.
There is so much toxic fan service and fans out there. As a gay man, I love to see these stories brought to life. And I completely agree with everything you said. Personally, I think my biggest problem with this industry are actors who audition for and take on gay roles knowing they are not at least allies.
There are a few BL actors in the last few years who have been caught on camera saying horrible things about us or the industry. They are totally free to have any opinion they choose to have about things and people around them. However, do not then turn around and partake in an industry that provides stories about gay people. I am much more impressed with actors like Max and Tul who have always been allies of the LGBTQ+ community. Sure, it would be amazing if they were gay. But even if they are not, at least they are supportive and have never said anything negative about our community. This is the right way to take on roles like these and just perform them to the best of their abilities.
Thanks for your great video!
I adore Max and Tul. They are one of the few “couples” who have mentioned Aces. We’re often outcasted within The Community, so it was nice to be included by them.
@@adeleennis2255 Max and Tul are the exception not the rule which is sad. They also don’t do fan service. They have a truly brotherly bond and love each other which is really great to see.
100% agree and ironically, that's one of the reasons Max and Tul are 2 of my favorites. It's fine for 2 straight actors to play gay, it's not fine for those same actors to be openly homophobic, for companies to actively only cast straight actors(I think it was GMMTV that had controversy for a casting call that specifically excluded actual gay people) and I especially hate when companies and actors go out of their way to pretend to be a couple in real life fostering this toxic fandom around a fake coupling and they do this "We're just close friends" but then they go out of their way to imply being a couple or doing over the top fanservice like "Are we gay or not?", It's a problem. If they're gonna make a gay show, they need to respect actual gay people instead of using them as lust objects for straight women which is usually the real reason they don't want anyone actually gay, they want to sell them to women so they need to have one foot in gayness while still being perceived as straight. It's like when fake lesbians were in a bunch of American media solely for straight men, that's not ok.
@@mismismism Completely agree with you, Maxx. I am always thrilled to see some of Thailand's well know gay actors still performing in some of these BL series. Fluke (NaTouch) is one for sure who seems to be getting more and more roles as he matures. His acting is very strong.
Now, as a side note related to toxic fans, I do find it very odd that, because these actors are told to dump or hide their real relationships (especially str8 ones), toxic fans often send death threats to the girlfriends because they think the guys should be together and these girlfriends are trying to get in the way of their true love.
This is one part of the BL industry that seriously pisses me off. Imagine Tom Hanks being told that he has to dump his wife because he is playing a role with another woman and they want to sell that actress as his "love interest". We immediately see that as beyond stupid. And no Hollywood actor would ever accept that. But because most of these BL actors are new and just finding their footing, it is all about this crappy "fan service" that forces decisions onto these poor actors.
Fan service has somehow been torn apart by these toxic fans and the actors' managers and production companies or tv stations. You can sell a show just as well to fans by interviewing them. Letting fans meet them just like they would any other actor. Again, imagine an actor like Tom Hanks being asked (even 30 years ago when he started out) to play the Poky game with his co-stars! He would tell them to F- off!
I would love to see some of these BL actors in person. Getting to meet them would be very cool. But I do not need to see them fake relationships for me. That is what the shows are for! I know most of them are not even gay, let alone dating each other in real life. So stop this pretending crap for stupid fans who cannot separate reality from fiction. Damn...sorry for the rant haha Fan service really sets me off sometimes! hehe
I definitely agree!! 💯💯💯💯
It's crazy to me how obsessed and invested some fans are in two people's relationship to the point that they call it queerbaiting when sometimes (or even MOST of the time) it's just two dudes who are genuinely good friends. The term has been thrown around so much to the point that it pisses me off sometimes. I hope these people know it's not really the right thing to be so obsessed with the sexual orientation of two random people. But I get why people can get so invested honestly
And for fanservice, It's not always an issue, as it is honestly just a part of the system and how these actors work to gain their money, it's not something these actors get to choose if they WANT to do or not. It is a little infuriating and even funny how crazy it can be, but at the end of the day, It's just capitalism getting the best of everyone.
Why are BL actors having to do fake fan service in the first place? We all know it’s fake except maybe some very delusional fugoshi fans. This kind of promotion is not done in western shows that have LGBTQ story lines. I don’t think it hurts the bottom line in the west. So why in Asia is it expected? I hate it and consider it the BS that in reality it is.
@@rhyker9597 I don’t know much but all I can say based on what I’ve heard is that they try to MARKET the pair itself, which is why they have to always do fanservice and it WORKS. You have two good looking guys act in a show as a couple, and now you have them acting like a couple offscreen so the fans think they’re like their characters (which on the acting side, is beneficial to both actors because they’re acting both OFF and ON screen, but it’s obviously very negative in other sides) and the target audience really eat it up. IT WORKS. REALLY WELL SOMETIMES.
Plus, delusional fujoshis are really not a small group of people, unfortunately. I too don’t get why it’s more prevalent in Asia but it’s a system that has been rinsed and reused far too many times to be changed.
@@rhyker9597 I agree and understand that being a bl actor comes with the expectation to do fanservice, however, when they do fanservice they aren't doing it as the characters they play, they do it as themselves. It's sad because they have to sell this (more than likely) false and overexaggerated idea daily in front of fans and peers. It's like their characters become not only their brand but who they are. It carries on and attaches itself to their name and we may get this false idea of who they truly are. And in all honesty, it may not be that serious (insert laughing emoji) but at the same time, I feel like a lot of fans miss out on genuine friendships because they see these lovey-dovey moments that do not come off as platonic all the time (fanservice). I think the feeling that fans get when they see fanservice is the same as when watching a bl, which may be hard for them to divide the real world from the show, especially when watching through a screen. I say all of that to say, while I do think that fanservice is expected I feel like it's up to the fans to somewhat speak out against it. Even though that very well might not do anything at all.
@@miwami. I agree. The Thai BL industry is leveraging fandom to grow. It's just like how kpop does it, EXCEPT the couples are officially endorsed. Fans in kpop create fanships, but in Thai entertainment (yes, even het entertainment) pairings are created from the industry itself (the actors or the company). These ships create WAY more money for the BL industry which is why it's been able to grow so rapidly. Those pointing out how "the West doesn't have to do this" should compare the amount of BL Thailand alone put out this year to the small amount of queer shows the entirety of the West released. Their are pros and cons to this tactic, but without it, we'd have little to no shows at all.
I just watch the drama. EVERYTHING ELSE IS A PERFORMANCE.
To clarify, I expect actors to act gay in the BL series. Fan meets, photoshoots for magazines, interviews, BL series extra videos, tiktoks where THE ACTORS are being all cute and like a couple IS A PERFORMANCE. I ignore it.
And Fmv. Fmv make the dramas look better than they actually are.
@@adanne3262 Yes we have all fallen for a well edited fmv only to find the Chinese drama series isn't BL.
Same here
Well said
@@civivva4501 literally "The Untamed" lol
The cases of zeenunew and kit connor(person who played nick in heartstopper) are good examples of how the word queer baiting being used out of context all the time is so dangerous and harmful for the community and doing the opposite of what you intend to do. Even though most of the bl industry works on this marketing strategy to ofcourse make more money , considering all of it as queer baiting or fs would just leave zero chance for the actual queer actors to have a safe space . Kit connor was basically forced to come out as bi at such a young age when he has such a bright future and unfortunately that does affect his acting career since a lot of people avoid giving queer people "normal” roles in commercial movies . And all of this was bcz he was accused of queer baiting just bcz he was supporting lgbtq outside his series and was seen out with a girl(also goes to show how bisexuality is completely ignored every single time sexuality comes into talk) . And in the case of zeenunew, I think people should just not talk about it if they don’t believe it . I mean what harm did it do to anybody to say that they’re a couple ?(they didn’t say “I think we act like a couple” it was a mistranslation and it was actually corrected by a trusted Thai translator to be “you could say we’re a couple”) (also they would be more in danger than in advantage by outing themselves) I mean how else could you possibly announce your relationship in that industry ? Saying that it is fanservice when y’all clearly know up to what extent fanservice can go and it’s not to the point you admit that you’re a couple in a serious interview just for the publicity. They weren’t even like “neither denying nor accepting” or laughed it off saying “kidding” . So not accepting that There’s a possibility of two actors in a bl industry being in a relationship out of all the thousands of straight bl actors is just homophobic and is not helping in the representation that we crave for .
The case of Zee and Nunew is so funny to me bc these men literally SAID it. The word they used in Thai was the word "lover", not "friend" not "brother" not "partner", but lover, l o v e r. The man who was asking the questions also used the word "love" as in "romantic love", like... that's it. But people somehow won't believe it, because they can't. Reminds of the meme "historians will say they're very good friends" ?? Zee and NuNew are very brave for doing this, and people should respect their relationship.
Mate this comment deserves to be pinned
@@rainivy3314 FACTS!!! Also, they confirmed that they’re a couple on some radio station a little while ago. Ppl SRSLY need to respect them and support them, smfh-
Ur comment need to be pinned!
@@byskl because they don't need to reveal their personal life to fans, smh
Billy and Seng's story on War of Y definitely opened a new perspective on me as a BL fan it made me realize that the BL industry in Thailand is not all butterflies and glamour, the actors having the dilemma to satisfy their management and the fans that it leads to them ending up broken to the point of feeling disgusted about themselves, the industry is so competitive that they push themselves to do something that they aren't comfortable and when they can't hide their dissatisfaction they would be scrutinised for being "ungrateful", it's sad but that's reality😔
I was having a discussion with someone about queerbaiting in the recent era of Doctor Who a few days ago and it got hearted (I won’t go into that) from my perspective (as a gay man) I see queerbaiting as when two male or female characters are lovey dovey with each other, but don’t act upon their feelings (if that makes sense) I 100% agree queer characters shouldn’t need kiss or do the deed, confessions (“I love you”) are better.
You want a definition of queerbaiting? Supernatural seasons 4-15. Dean/Cas has practically spawned its own industry.
@@tokublwhovian Sorry if my remark sounded flippant. It was just the most obvious example I could think of. Fans for years accused the writers of queerbaiting, and even the way the actors played certain lines was like they were in on it.
@@tokublwhovian Lmao he was just validating your point. Dean and Cas (from Supernatural) are two straight characters (well, Dean is straight and Cas is supposedly asexual, since he's an angel) who have a lot of sexual tension on screen and seem to care about eachother like star crossed lovers; but nothing ever comes out off it in the 11 seasons they were on.
@tokuBLWhovian stated "I see queerbaiting as when two male or female characters are lovey dovey with each other, but don’t act upon their feelings".... but that happens in a lot of shows between heterosexual characters as well... its not specific to any sexual orientation. so not sure that its queer baiting exactly
The funny thing about the fan service and fanbase of BL shows/stories overall is that the majority of them feed themselves into imagining that the actors are canonically a couple IRL and then get mad when they are disappointed by their own imagination. They are literally being toxic to their own selves without even knowing it, and then take out that anger on the actors instead.
Bingo!!!
this also goes to the k-pop industry as well, it's awful how the fans who don't have lives stalk these individuals. also if more positive fans would speak out about the un necessary promoted fanservice some of this might die down. in interviews they ask inappropriate questions trying to make them speak on their connections with the other partner for their ratings. call it what you want was a good example of letting us know some of the abuse that was going on in the industry. and a few youtube videos also spoke on it. we need more less toxic people to speak out. since some of the companies sometime listen to what the fans are saying. I just want them all to be happy and healthy in their lives as actors/singers. 💜🖖
Kpop stans are wild, and I mean wild. There's of course gay idols, because idols are just humans at the end of the day. So yes, that's a thing I'm not denying that. But obviously these people live in secret, they can't be out. And oh boy... it's okay if you think someone might be queer, but outing this person ? It happened once with one idol that I won't name for their own sake. Somehow a very suspicious fact about them (more like, very obvious fact) "leaked" I suppose, and it started out with few fans and then it ALMOST got out of hands because people couldn't stfu. The worst part is that they were "fans" and a lot of them were queer.
The sad thing about kpop ships is that you can’t even really tell who is good friends with whom in the group or if they’re even friends cause in the end they’re co-workers who are trying to gain fans and fame.
As a queer person I have a bad perception of BL industry and its fandom, not all of it obvi, 1st due to some actors and/or companies that clearly profit from the LGBTQ+ community but want nothing to do with us.
A clear example was the month of June, almost no actor or BL company spoke about it, there were even actors who only attended the pride parade to promote their work, but they didn't even publish a mid post about the month of pride, NOTHING, these types of actors are the ones who accept a role just for money and fame, and IK that we all work to get a benefit and it's not necessary for an actor to publicly show his support but some of these border on homophobia or are homophobic, same with companies that refuse to accept LGBTQ+ people, I'm not saying that an actor has to be queer to represent a queer character, but you have real queer people who can clearly represent us, and here comes another problem, some companies use queer labels and claim to represent the community, BUT BL DOES NOT REPRESENT THE REALITIES OF QUEER PEOPLE, and this misconception extends to fandoms that may fetishize or idealize real couples.
Underrated comment
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My favorite BL serie list is short do to the extreme fanservice, industry goes like they literally have a list and make sure the actors go ✔️✔️ I understand they are actors and me as a fan Stan the characters ships and support the actors for their work, until know the only couple of actors that got my truly admiration from the way they talk and support the LGTBQ+ community is Boun and Prem from Wabi Sabi and my biggest respect for the support this agency gives to their actors. Earth came out 🌈 and they don't turn their backs on him, majority of companies actors can't be themselves they treat them as products. Poor Earth receives a lot of hate (some BL actors bullying him too😤) but he receives a lot of support and love from other actors and truly fans too. He's so brave and makes me sad that even in a BL industry he needs to be brave to be himself.
It’s one of those things where it’s not exactly queerbaiting, but it does make you feel like “Damn, they really are making their entire career on playing me like fiddle.” I think the main problem is that the media produced does justice for representation but it’s the strong fan service that’s more messed up. Fan service isn’t necessary to promote media, I’m not sure why it’s so prevalent in Thailand.
Yes! Fanservice is not necessary to promote these series and that's what prevents me from interacting with bl fans online. I feel like an outsider in the fandom because I never watch interviews or promotions to these series and, I usually don't know actor names until the series starts airing. I wish I could actually connect with people that love the same series that I do but most fans seem so disconeted from reality either talking about a ship being real/endgame or speculating about someone sexuality. This makes feel both sad and impotent bc there is no way to break it to them that it is not okay to talk about people's personal lives...
@@anaclgarcez I don’t get the fanservice either. Does it really matter so much if the actors are dating, just friends, or simply coworkers? I don’t think so. Until an acting pair comes out in an Arm-Porsche kind of way, I presume they are friends. If they are more, great for them, but if they are not, that’s still not an issue that’s important to my life, nor is it actually any of my concern. Whatever the reality of an acting pair’s situation, I just want the best for them. I think that is what a true fan does. When we watch non-BLs do we hope for the protagonists to be dating in real life? Not normally. It does happen that on-screen relationships turn into real life relationships, but most fans don’t expect fanservice in these other genres. If we even think about it, we hope everyone had a good experience making that film or tv series. We don’t expect weeks, months, or even years of fanservice from one successful film or series. It’s just kind of insane what BL actors are expected to do in order to promote their series or film.
@@adeleennis2255 I think the way that the people handling the production and PR of these series cultivate boundaries (or lack thereof) plays a large factor in this. I think probably since the dawn of the BL industry, promotional teams realised that fan service brings in loyal fans of couples, who will spend to watch them interact at fansigns, promotional events and concerts. In the larger entertainment industry, there are professional boundaries maintained and respect given towards the actor and their craft because of norms already in place. In an industry like BL that was probably largely underfunded for the longest time, I think these productions had to think a bit out of the box in order to make a profit. I realised when I got into watching BL shows that all those ship videos of the actors doing fan service would get millions of views. Another BL industry phenomenon I’ve witnessed is concerts. It seemed absurd to me that someone with barely any singing and dancing talent was getting on stage to sing and dance for fans, when that’s not even their job. It’s all that BL capitalism at play, lol. The BL industry is handled a lot like the kpop idol industry used to be, come to think of it. Anyway, I think that fans will follow the lead of the promotional team, if the promo team is encouraging fan service and blurring lines then fans will wholeheartedly engage. I hope the BL industry can slowly wean off fanservice and cultivate respect towards the 😅actor’s craft and the ethos of a film production since now BL is rising into the mainstream. Fan service is so unhealthy for all parties involved. And it makes people easily invade the actors’ boundaries.
this!!
@AnaJ I was lucky enough to find a group of BL fans who engage in the fanservice to a certain degree, but are on a similar wavelength of respect for the actors. They deserve their privacy, and in most cases it's fine to joke about sometimes for the fanservice, it is part of the job and they're pretty aware of what the job entails, but constantly analyzing and peering into their lives is just invasive, dangerous, and no one should be subjected to that.
I think this video is really important concerning recent events (like Kit Connor being forced to come out for example). It's also important to note that a lot of the times actors just have to do what their companies tell them and have no control over how much "fan service" they wanna do, so even if it seems like "queerbaiting" it's very likely that it's not even their choice
I can see that happening when their advertisers make them carry out their gay characters relationships. This adds to their difficulties when they are told to “stay in character” while filming and advertising and promoting the film etc. It makes people believe the outtakes /BTS and that the actors are as gay as their characters. Sigh. What a mess and that is the industry queer baiting / using them to promote their film to the detriment of their privacy.
Okay, so here comes my lengthy comment about the video.
First off, thank you for bringing this subject to light and dissecting it in a way that is not biased. There were some good points made throughout and I definitely agree that forcing actors to reveal their sexualities is selfishly intrusive.
However, as a Queer Thai person, I still feel that a large majority of the discussion is overly simplified. You gave an example of how an actor had stated that he 'would only do BL again when he runs out of money'. The thing is, this isn't an isolated incident. Many (and I mean A HELL LOT) of BL actors are homophobic and/or at the very least ignorant about LGBTQIA+ issues. We should not simplify this issue by saying that that certain actor is just an asshole. Although it's true that these actors are essentially doing everything they can to survive in the capitalistic world, it must also be discussed that they are taking away jobs from actual LGBTQ+ people who are struggling far more to make their presence known in the industry. The question is 'is it really right to be giving platforms to homophobic straight men and letting them profit off of our identities?' when in present time they are taking up queer spaces and perpetuating harmful stereotypes of our community. They want to reap the benefits yet can't find a time in their day to actually rally for LGBTQ+ rights outside of the typical overused 'love has no gender' bullshit. Representation should not be at the disposal of queer people.
Another discussion to be had is how many minors are casted into BL roles. Not only is it dangerous to place minors at the forefront of the spotlight to be fetishized and sexualized by straight women, it is also scary how this industry can take advantage of them. There was a hashtag that blew up on Thai twitter some time ago regarding minors in the entertainment industry. These minors are groomed into believing that providing fanservice and living up to the sexual fantasies of cishet women is an absolute must to survive in the industry. They are also made to perform NC/bed scenes in front of fully grown adult crews. So while their company/agency are doing little to nothing to educate them about LGBTQ+ issues, they are used as queerbaiting props.
I also hate the fact that BL is treated as a genre of its own when it is not. There are so many genres within BL works themselves (just like straight media) yet they are still constantly being labelled as just BL. The word BL/Yaoi originated from and is still largely used to avoid saying 'gay' (as it is aimed for cishet female consumers). There have been many instances of Yaoi fangirls denying that BL is gay despite the shows depicting clearly mlm relationships.
I could honestly go on for hours about how messed up this industry is and how truly disgusting it is to see queerbaiters excel monetarily from stealing our identities. It is such a sensitive, multi-layered topic. That's all I can think of for now though.
I would love to hear more of your thoughts on this issue! This was very informative to read.
@@HMemon-wj1xb I would love to discuss this is more detail except I'm not quite sure which topics I should bring up in particular since there are so many ongoing issues 😅 Though, if you do have any questions regarding Thai queer experiences, societal perception, media landscape, etc., I'd gladly share my insight to the best of my ability!
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Honestly, I don't even know where to begin with, if I have to talk about how messed up and yet surprisingly refreshing this industry is. There are so many questions and concerns that should be addressed.
As an Asian myself, I just find it hard to understand why fans, who are mostly, heterosexual women can be overly obsessed to ship actors in real life? I mean, what's the point? This is even become more confusing to the fact that those who actually like watching BL series don't seem to accept gay relationship in real life.
Thai BL industry itself somehow gives me the thought that only good looking, fair skinned and masculine actors are valid of gay relationship. I personally don't like when they portray a rather feminine gay character as a loud, noisy and pervert characters. This is not only happening in one or two series, but it has almost become like a golden standard.
Another issue is regarding the use of minor in BL series. The problem is not because they are minor, but it tends to be on the role and the treatment they receive from staff. Well, honestly, casting children and teenager in the entertainment industry is nothing new and so does the high school romance trope. On the positive side of this high school story is that it can raise awareness about acceptance among high school students since there are many incidents of bullying to gay people happen in this level of education. But the lack of proper and balance portrayal about gay teenager somehow just makes the situation kinda worse. There are many BL series out there which tends to depict gay teen romance solely on the basis of "sensual act". For example they have to do intense kissing scenes or even sex scene. There is a lack of series that really tells how innocent and pure gay teenanger can be when it comes to love. It's just feel like it's been going so far away from the complexity of real gay character, and becomes more and more like a p*rn movie.
@@notyourmoon5914 I'm queer, interested in queer cultures and queer media, and plan to move to Thailand in the next year or so (likely permanently, not with one foot already out the door). I'd love to talk to you about queer stuff.
I dislike ship culture at all. This industry should focus on production and let the audience simply enjoy the show and appreciate casts' acting.
I think for some it's like Extra content - with MileApo or BibleBuild you often see "his Vegas jumped out" or "that was Kinn looking at Porsche" type of comments - it keeps the ship you enjoyed in the original media alive. It might be why a lot of the BL actors will remain in the "roles" of their characters aka the character is very dominant and possessive - the actor behaves that way with their onscreen partner (Boss Chaikamon as Payu is often like this in events with Noeul who plays Rain).
Altho apparently BOC does not require fanservice of their actors, they do what they want so a lot of what we see with them interacting outside of magazine shoots is apparently their genuine friendships.
i agree with u i think thats what makes the kinnporsche cast very approachable is that. they have geninue friendships and whenever they do fan service they just act as a character rather than pretending they are in love. obviously some mileapo and biblebuild shippers exist out there still but especially with biblebuild i think everything they do is out of their amazinf friendship and u can really see that.
and the cast together as a whole seem really close and enjoy working with eachother. id say theyre the only bl actors i properly check up on because i feel they have good chemistry . and i know theyre supportive too.
War of y literally potrayed so many serious topics that some fans find it "offensive" Cause they felt called out🗿
Also when lovely writer came out, some *fans* refused to watch it because Kao was acting with someone else instead of earth 🗿.....
4:48 - 5:17
My goodness, the way I agreed on this!!
8:38 this is why I love kinnporsche cast, kinnporsche taught so many things along with series/excellent acting, they are REAL, they don't fake, doesn't matter whether they are gay or straight or in a relationship, they have a bond that's why 80% of their fans are here. And that's why their fan following is growing day by day even after all these months of the end of the series.. I ship mileapo very much cause what they have feels like fate or soulmate, their past meetings and history are just magical, I want them to be together but I still go and crush over Apo with heart eyes 🤣😭 he is perfect ✨lol, I never went nor saw mature mileapo fans to go and spam their posts with relationship accusation , I love watching them cause they don't fake that's all And literally because of them I learned to recognize fan service just seeing once🤣..
When you said a company that doesn't allow their main actor to come out.. GMMTV definitely come to my mind.
I know there 2 actor, who as soon as their contract expires and leave GMMTV announced their sexuality plus their boyfriend.
whooo
@@min_nad Plustor the one who play in Friendzone the series, i believes he end his contract last year with GMMTV and became independent actor, after that he announced his boyfriend of 1 or 2 year i believe
@@min_nad the other one is Ten Tosatid, he play alot of gmmtv series around 2012 to 2015 ish. But after tbe contract end, I believe in 2016. He became a producer, had his own show and introduced his boyfriend
The toxicity in those companies makes me admire more Wabi Sabi support to Earth.
Being from the West, I’ve had a hard time understanding shipping and fan service. It’s confusing to me. Pairs are strongly pushed as couples, yet they never confirm or deny their relationship or any relationship.
Me too. Ok some it's ok like when they do it in their characters but when it's off Camara get me confuse, when I start in the bl series i was like how cool the actors can be open about their feelings 😍 as time goes on and almost every couple do the same I was like wtf 😵💫 I get piss when some actors even made homophobic comments. understand the actors don't saying what they are or not cuz painful like it is their careers are at risk. Industry is making money with the support from LGTBQ+ community and in exchange actors from the community can't be open about themselves 🤯😡
@@cdj588 Yes, even after a couple of years of watching BLs, I still don’t get it. The actors continue the story off camera at endless events. My TH-cam feed is flooded with all these loving “moments “ between people who may having nothing more between them other than a working relationship. I just try to keep in mind that these people are actors. I don’t know them, and they are not the characters they play. They are paid to sell their pairing and it’s not necessarily reality…probably not, in fact. I think it must be a hard way to live. They should be able to love who they wish; to date, to marry, etc. This doesn’t happen to such a degree with American stars.
@@sprinkles4375 extreme fanservice ⛽ the delulu fans, for real its staring to borders me cuz ok I don't have years watching BL but I consider myself as someone that can have some perspective of what they do but if I see fanservice from the point of view of some immature, homophobic or close minded person? The possessive, jealousy bf is not a good thing for once, I think that's one of the reasons I like BounPrem interaction, if you look for BounPrem jealous moments it's only a couple of them and most of them is Boun taking care of Prem cuz he doesn't like show a lot of skin or really theme taking care of the other, the little fanservice they do it's not a lot or was when they started and follow the flow, but now they say they are the same Camara on or off and regarding their sentimental status it's a matter involving both of them only, they support the community not only one in a while saying "love have no gender" they really post about the marriage regulations and talk about 🌈equality. The industry not allow actors to be open about themselves but use them to create a fantasy to make more money, start in Asia and international fans are welcoming that practice too, it's a shame how fighting for equality to have more exposure in the media is generating that actors are treated like products 😔
@@cdj588 It can sometimes be hard for me not to be delusional about my favorite BL couples. BounPrem, YinWar, BillySeng, BossNouell, OffGun, BillkinPP look so real together, but if they don’t say they are together, I presume they are not. I just don’t understand why they must be so vague while they are promoted as a couples.
@@sprinkles4375 I understand you it's really hard not to ship them sometimes, being honest when BossNouel started i was like "JESUS 🤯 they really something else" but after seeing more of them it's exactly the same as others so i remember myself that is not my business but they really have a great chemistry. what bothered me is why actors need to fake they're gay if they're not? But the real gay actors can't say openly?. I support characters ships (WinTeam, PayuRain, examples) encourages the actors to keep working together when they do it great together but personal lives are not my business, this industry should be a safe place for actors in the LGTBQ+ community to be open about themselves and what's happening is the opposite effect 😔
As a queer fan playing catch-up(watching both old and new BL during the pandemic), I've definitely noticed a move in the genre toward realism in depicting these queer characters and their relationships. What has taken decades in western media had happened in a few short years in BL. However, I only consume the narratives. As an American, non-teenager, the crass product placements and manipulative off screen shipping are easy for me to tune out.
Visibility is our strongest ally. It's rarely perfect but once our stories are out in the open it is inevitable that our truth will be told.
I definitely do agree with a lot of points from this. I do have mixed feelings about fan service.
This is coming from my perspective of being handsy with my bestie of 20 years. We’ve cuddled and all that stuff together, even in public many times, so it’s perfectly normal for friends to be affectionate in that way. Literally to the extent that almost everyone in high school thought we were dating. We never corrected anyone because who cares. 🙆🏻♀️
There are many genuine friendships between different pairs. A handful of pairs that were friends before starring in anything together. Earth and Mix, Billkin and PP, and Anson and Charles were friends with each other before acting together. There are also pairs that have been friends for years that met during castings. Max and Tul have been besties for 6+ years. Off and Gun have grown together and become close friends. Kaownah and Turbo, Ohm and Nanon, and Santa and Earth too. They’ve also been friends for years.
There are definitely random new pairs that go overboard with it, but there are also many that don’t care. Perth even said recently that many actors that only do what they’re comfortable with now, which I think is a good thing. No one should feel forced to do anything like that.
Hence me having mixed feelings about that aspect. It’s hard to judge those pairs since many have been friends for 5+ years as they’ve known each other for that long. It can become a habit you don’t even realize until someone points it out.
And on the flip/dark side, there have also been genuine friendships that ended because of excessive shipping from delulus so that happens too. I hate that. 🙃
Fans really need to understand that just because friends are touchy feely does not mean they’re dating. 🙆🏻♀️
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On a similar note regarding friendships, there are two actors from a German series called Verbotene Liebe, Thore and Jo. They starred together as a queer couple for 4-5 years on the show.
They’ve been friends in real life for 14+ years, Jo was the best man at Thore’s wedding, and Jo is besties with Thore’s wife.
So yes, there are definitely friendships created from starring as a queer couple in a series. 💙😂
santa earth arent together?? i see so many things saying they are official idk anymore 😦
Thank you for being honest and making sure of the facts concerning queerbaiting and BL whether in series or real life. I'm an American mother who has been learning how to be supportive to my MTF young adult and to a son who has come out as Bisexual. I enjoy not only BL series but regular shows like LOVE O2O, Falling into Your Smile, and others (American, European, etc.,) and it pains me to know that actors/actresses maybe pressured to "act" as a couple for fans, etc. The rude comments, actions of people affect all including my family. BE SAFE, BE STRONG! LOVE TO ALL!
I’m so thankful for your videos because I feel like they help me navigate watching bl responsibly
First of all, thank you for the insight. This is a very interesting topic for me...
My biggest takeaway from this is that;
- You cannot really call someone a queerbaiter if you don't know their sexuality and gender identity.
-Before calling someone a queerbaiter first acknowledge the privileges that you might have which the person might not have
-We should allow people to discover themselves how they want, and not force them to come out etc
-Fan service is the weirdest invention in (Asian) entertainment, and very uncomfortable to watch when it seems to be too planned and structured (and not voluntary, spontaneous and impromptu)
-We should really learn to separate the actor from the act/art (of course this is naïve thinking, but whatever)
-The word "queerbaiting" has lost all meaning now from inconsistent, arbitrary use and overuse
-I thought we all "knew" that it's an act, so why do we want it to become true? (Fan service is what I mean, and I'm including myself here sarcastically)
Fabulous report. As a fan of BL, you can tell there is so much behind these dramas.
Hate when people CP / ship the two leads and make their life a living h*ll saying that’s who they are in real life. It really hurts the actors in their real life as you said , their private relationships are none of our business. For example, It really hurt the actors in Chinese BL aka Bromance after censorship , in The Untamed. The two actors cannot even have a public friendship without netizens going after them and other powers trying to destroy them. Their agencies won’t even let them be seen at events together or talk to each other at awards shows. I so blame the fans and homophobic people in the industry or government.
right I hate how these extreme shippers just kinda forget the ACTORS are literally just doing their jobs by acting n like irl fanservice makes it harder to draw the line
You always do a great job at breaking down these issues 😉
I try to stay away from the fan service, because I don't want the confusion of what's fantasy or not. I get enough of that from the dramas themselves.
Same.💕
same👍
Yes, same! 💕
Sharp commentary. You made an excellent point when you said "the anger we had toward the system got re-directed at the individual." Sad, but unfortunately true. Fanservice has all of us wondering what is real and what isn't, even if it's none of our business. Lovely Writer spoke to that, as did Call it What You Want.
I think we as fans are caught up in a system that screams "OMG, the relationship between Actor X and Actor Y is REAL!" and has a bajillion videos with "proof" that the actors are in a real relationship. That hurts the actors who are actually LGTBQ+ and want to come out. It's a catch 22.
I had no idea Tong had come out. Good for him! I'm glad he's being supported by his friends and coworkers!
Great video. You just gained a new fan.
Thank you so much for this video! I've been following just a bit of the discussion online in the West and felt baffled by how anyone who wasn't 100% out and open with their sexuality but "dared" to play a queer character, or even just included LGBTQ themes in their art, got violently accused of "queerbaiting", as if homophobia wasn't still a thing in our society and in the entertainment industry? As if allyship wasn't a thing? It's as if people don't understand what the concept of "acting" and being an "actor" means! Do we require that only those who are parents can play parents, that only people who have a medical degree can play doctors? What about serial killers, what about r**e victims? I know this is not the same thing, since not all those groups need or want accurate and positive representation in media the way sexual minorities and disabled people do. But making the individual actors/actresses carry the entire burden of being politically correct and being 100% transparent about their most personal and private affairs in order to play a specific role on stage or screen, that seems very invasive and unreasonable to me. Especially since a stage or screen production involves so many people besides the actor, who is only the outwardly visible figurehead--what about the original author, the scriptwriter, the producer, the director, the camera person, the marketing people?
Slow hand clap for this comment!! 100% in agreement with you!!
this conversation needed to happen.. thank you for shining some light on this topic
BLs are sometimes used by companies as a launching pad to then promote boy bands or are presented as a stepping stone into acting in general.
I'm from South Africa and I love BL's as we don't have much representation here, I think BL's are great and yes some series queer bait and often these actors having to do fan service are probably not gay but then again it is fan service and they're just doing part of their job. people need to separate the actor from the role period.
I always think about war of y doing that promo with the actors as action figures....
People are too obsessed with the personal lives of these actors. All that truly matters is that these actors respect the lgbtq community
I think that people really should be able to differentiate between actors and characters. The fact that some fans are still assuming actor's sexuality is really disappointing. As the video said, it will also affect the actors who really are together and are trying to publicize their relationship. The concept of extreme fanservice, same pairing for the entirety of their lifetime (like off and gun), ambiguous comments on how their relationship actually is, these all are the things that really makes this scenario worse.
Another thing that I would like to point out is the categorisation of these pairs into top and bottom. That is stereotyping and fetishizing the community and also trying to inject their heteronormative stereotypes into homosexual relationships.
But I think queerbaiting accusations also shadows dramas where the complexity of relationships in real life are shown. For example the devil judge. I think the drama potrayed their struggles with comprehending their feelings despite the fact that mainstream korean drama industry still being reluctant to produce bl dramas.
It's great to hear your opinions again. One other drawback to the queerbaiting/fanservice, which you have talked about in the past, is the need for actors to hide their real relationships, and the abuse some "fans" give the partners of the actors. Those fans do not expect the men and women who are paired romantically in a project to be a couple when the cameras are not rolling; it would be considered harassment in many cases.
Nah, BL didn't invent the concept of the "love team," and there are lots of examples of Asian and SE Asian actors playing straight couples whose careers were impacted by obsessive/deluded fans getting angry when they were cast alongside the "wrong" partner after several films with one person.
@@tophergerkey agree. which is why quite a number of Asian "straight" actors and singers have hidden their spouses / family from the public... cuZ the fans would freak out. I've read stories of fans committing suicide or attacking the performers when learning they had actual relationships. Some people are just crazy.
Fanservice just feeds that crazy.
An actor's sexuality is none of our business. And the fact that actors or actresses are forced to fake their sexuality or lie just becuase companies and "fans" want them to is kinda disgusting. Actresses and actors in gl or bl, their sexuality they play on screen isn't always their own. Actors and actresses are there for entertainment on screen and off of screen it's not our business. If the actors want to share themselves that's great but people shouldn't pressure them in anyway.
A lot of book authors and publishers are using this strategy which is clearly depicted in the Lovely Writer.
On shipping and fan-service, my thought has always been: the moment you are able to live in that delusion while also being able to pull yourself out of it at will, is the moment you truly get peak entertainment.
I agree with a lot of things you said. As a lesbian I know that's no one's business what a person's sexuality is. The BL fandom sadly is very toxic. Take zeenew for example everyone excepts them to announce their relationship and sexuality. People say you're queerbaiting if your not gay but if you say you are gay then you loss those same fans who pressured you into coming out. Shippers sometimes forget the actors playing their favorite characters aren't the characters themselves. I think there's also the problem of pressure the fans put on their favorite actors. Take offgun as an example. I don't they doubt they are friends but imagine how hard it must be for them. whether they fight or have other relationships; infront of the cameras they have to appear happy and vague about their relationship. As that's what sales. Companies in a way encourage the fans behavior as they often control what an actor can say in front of the cameras.
For me the worst form of queerbaiting is when actors who are homophobic pretend to be allies. I get everyone is entitled to their opinion but being in an industry where gay stories are told and hating on those same stories seems wrong. You don't have to be a BL actor if you want to act; you just have to be a good actor.
I love that you acknowledged that there is a difference between the BL industry and LGBTQ+ themed entertainment, because there is a difference. The BL industry, especially in Thailand 🇹🇭 and other Asian countries, was never intended to highlight, support or empower LGBTQ+ people. It was a moneymaking enterprise designed by, created for, and catered to straight women. So the entire early industry was queerbaiting and to a large extent it is still that way today. Why, because it has been, and continues to be very lucrative. Money is often a huge driver of change or of maintaining the status quo. I think this is one reason, in addition to the cultural reasons that people often ignore, why the BL industry has been slow to change in certain places.
There are newer companies who are attempting to move away from that model and make content that has a broader appeal without reinforcing outdated troupes and stereotypes. They are including more realistic aspects of the lives of LGBTQ+ in their characters which makes them more relatable to more members of the LQBTQ+ community. As a person of color, I started watching BL because it was refreshing and uplifting to see same-sex stories that weren’t primarily Anglo-European. Because of this I was willing to overlook some of the cringe-inducing troupes in some storylines, but more and more I find myself being less forgiving and being more selective. Personally, I’m happy to see when companies treat their actors with respect as actors not as props to manipulate fans.
Omg!! You just made a video on my thoughts. i have recently started watching a lot of BL shows and movies from asia...i am not from lgbtq community but i support it and have family members and friends who are...I have been watching a lot of Thai series..and their fan service has always concerned me...the awkward questioning..the speculation...the representation...i am a huge fan of Brightwin...and Bounn and Prem...I hate that the studio pressurizes them like this..its worse if the actors are straight and have acted out an amazing chemistry onscreen..and then they are forced to be ambiguous to their fans...even lead them on by ambigous statements in interviews because of that pressure. Though there are some amazing fandom who are more understanding (brightwin fandom for example) and support their actors no matter what..some fandoms just tear the actors apart ..when u fail to realize they are just following the script handed in by the company. they are humans. they have a personal life, family, love life..which is not anyone's business at all.
Excellent job breaking down a complex issue. The Urban Dictionary definition is certainly more accurate than the OED definition, so nice job highlighting that distinction. I thought the best contribution made in your analysis was to explore the somewhat contradictory link between fan service (pretend to be gay for fans in contexts away from the set) and fan protests against what they perceive as queerbaiting (how dare you pretend to be gay for us in your "real" life). I think that ends up creating a situation for performers where they are damned if they do but also damned if they dont. And of course, treating "the fans" as a monolithic group is itself self-defeating because as BL Fandom proliferated post-2019, it may well be that one loud segment demands more fan service while another loud segment decries the queerbaiting.
I love this video, and how extensive it was. It's a very important discussion to have. As a queer person myself, I think there should be a happy middle in this media that respects queer peoples' identities but also appeals to straight female fans. I think BL over the years has improved with that. Personally I'm not a fan of fan service but I understand the importance it has to commercial success and I don't think it is harmful.
Also, thanks for pointing out the problem of people accusing individuals of queerbaiting and discussing why this is an issue. I was watching a video of an actor (forgot his name) who had recently come out out who was discussing exactly what you were saying. Prior to coming out the actor was in gay production and saw messages online of viewers commenting that they wish more gay actors had been cast. In the interview he said, he really wanted to say "Hi guys I'm one of you too" but wasn't ready to come out, so had to sit quietly. In general I think it's not cool to come after actors or make such assumptions like that. I think people should address this at an industry level.
As a 40 yo hetero western woman I don't know if my view on things is shadowed by my age or sexual orientation or by my culture...Having watched a lot of Asian movies (not only BLs) I got the impression that the amount of obsessing over actors' real lives is at a level I've never seen in our society, (with the exception of political views or criminal acts that would be something that ruins an actor's career but who they are dating? Maybe their sexual orientation and their ethnicity too but that's thankfully slowly changing). And I get the impression that for BL's most of the audience is female teen-agers/people in their twenties, and that adds up to the immaturity of this kind of obsession. I remember my teen agers days when I liked an actor so much I had to know everything about them, to see anything that they did... And socials make this even more possible and invasive.
Of course, capitalism is going to get on that, that's what it does.
I am particularly amazed though by the people fangirling over the couples on those BL series that tackle this toxic behavior...I mean didn't you get the memo? Stop contributing to this toxic behavior!
But I'm not completely shocked, I'm used to the duplicity of people ("Purist" Christians hating on everybody, people putting ethnic groups in closed spaces where they are allowed to dress a certain way while pretending to fight racism..)
So when I got into Bl's i had no idea what they were my friend told me it was boys love and my first was 2gether. I wasn't aware of the term queer baiting I was just happy to see queer love being represented in the media but especially being represented as heterosexual concepts and topics ( Story lines you would see in regular straight movies/series being with same sex characters) I thought it was refreshing to see this and i honestly I'm a fan of the story more than the the idea of it's same sex leads ( as it should be, which i mean it should be normalized so all you think about it the plot not the fact that it is a lgbt+ characters ). but as i got deeper into the industry ( and after watching several series discussing this topic such as lovely writer and war of Y) that queerbatitng is the ENTIRE Bl industry. From fan shipping, to fan service . i get you are promoting but I don't like false hope. cause we will support them if they are and if they aren't but i don't want the obvious fan service to try and make me believe that they will be a will they won't they thing. It's exhausting. I get really skeptical and just only focus on the show and the message they give. I don't give in to fan service anymore.
i absolutely love this video, really hit the nail on the head with some points and encapsulated my thoughts on bl and the community perfectly. i like the fact that you explained the repercussions of coming out in such a close minded society, and emphasized that the actors are not equivalent to the characters they portray that they are people too. very eloquent script and an instant like to the video. (also, i had no idea that tong came out?? so happy for him)
The rabid obsession fans display is very disturbing. I just discovered Thai BL dramas and have enjoyed watching the kissing and cuddling. Don't care about the actors private lives at all. If the cast of KP are couples, great. MileApo is my favorite couple. And as a white, middle age woman , hetero, multi married, I think I have learned a lot. Because I didn't really consider other peoples practices my business.
BUT I have gay and lesbian friends, have always believed that a person's sexuality is their own business and belong to a church that is inclusive. People who invest so much energy in the lives of people they don't know need to examine their own lives.
An angle from a 60yr old grandma, white, married 40yrs to my amazing white husband, from Canada. I found BL by mistake. I started watching a show it was well written by eng subtitles standard, the visuals were amazing, the soundtracks clicked even in a language I don’t speak and yes even at my age I can appreciate a good looking man. I’ve watched BL in an assortment of languages and had never heard of “queer baiting “ until now. I watch the shows for the reasons I stated. I don’t care if they are a couple off screen, if they are”out” or not, it’s none of my business. I’m sure they don’t care about my straight white marriage. If it’s a well written, acted, and produced series I’m going to watch it whether they are gay on screen or off. You need to keep an open mind people, if someone has to pretend to be a couple off screen or a gay couple on screen to get viewers are they viewers they want? To many people “meddle”, it’s fictional, at the end of the day it’s a show not your life, enjoy it for what it is.
I really do hope War of Y gets the recognition it deserves. One of the recent episode that came out had a scene with Net & James where they both were questioning Achi’s sexuality WHILE doing an interview simply because he looked stunning and knew how to dance. He then responded professionally by saying how it doesn’t matter whether if he’s gay or not, and wearing clothes, dancing or singing shouldn’t be a determining factor of his sexuality
When I saw the title I came ready to fight because I'm really tired of people going bl actors are queerbaiting thing. You're so right, you cannot use the same tools you use to criticise fictional characters and fictional media on real life people where there will be real life consequences. Actors can't queerbait you. An actor promoting their show by doing couple pr with their cp is normal even outside of bl and the straight ones never get accused of 'straigthbaiting'. Like it's crazy how entitled fans feel entitled to the actors and their private life. Fans need to chill imo and just enjoy the fictional show you have been given access to and leave the actors alone.
But on the other hand the thai bl industry also needs to answer for their crimes, like these media companies do push their actors boundaries and also largely contribute to the entitlement of fans to pry into the private lives of the actors. They need to protect their talent as much as they do use them for money.
Loved your commentary. I love bl despite being straight woman do I like keeping myself in check so as to not romanticize queer relationships. The reason why I love this genre is because of how it portrays different sides of masculinity and how healthy it can actually be.
This was a really interesting piece, thank you! One thing that occurred to me is that the 'ambiguity' encouraged by the BL industry, particularly Thai BL, comes with positives as well as the possible negatives (i.e. Queer Bating). The narrative that they create is one where the (mostly) male actors can openly show love and affection without having to declare a definitive sexuality. Isn't this actually the endgame of our GLBTQ+ dream - an affectionate society without toxic barriers that makes no demands on 'knowing' anyone's actual sexuality.
Very well made video! I typically don't mind shipping especially when its done in a healthy way like hyping up the actors and doing good deeds like donating in their name. I am a hopeless romantic I mean we have so many stories in media of two straight actors working on a show together and finding love in real life bla bla. The romantic part of me kinda wants to see that happen someday in the thai bl (also gl but we have a handful of them) world.
The aspect I don't like is that fans suddenly forgetting these are real life people and assuming that every action one actor makes is a hint to the fans they need to solve. So they start to cross boundaries by stalking them, attacking anyone they think threatens the ship even if it is one of the actors themselves, requesting the company make the actors pump out content to give them their daily fix etc. If you go deep on bl twitter you can even see competition about which ship is more real or better.
Sample extreme shipper logic:
- "OMG Actor A posted a song about the summer and said in that interview that also included actor B that he loves summer so that means that actor B makes him feel warm!!!!"
- "Oh no! Actor B said "excuse me" to actor C while passing by as he want to the restroom because he definitely wanted actor A to be jealous"
They want their ship to be real but what if their fave is queer but is actually dating someone else and not their ship partner. Will they accept their fave open-mindedly or do they just exist to be a ship?
These fans have way too much in common with kpop stans its eerie!
There is also the other end of the spectrum where these fans believe that every bl actor is straight and if they are not they need to come out or they are queer baiting. These days we see more queer actors, writers and people who work more in bls. but We have someone like cooheart that gets a lot of hate everyday for being himself and gets called a "groomer" because he is acting in a show with a 17yr old acting partner.
With that being said I need to get off bl twitter but am just staying there to keep up to date with the upcoming MileApoBas movie and cos mile interacts so wholesomely with fans. Also there to keep up with the new any new bl/gl content.
P.s. Prejudiced bl stans suck. The most common kinds I see are:
"They are straight but gay for only their bl shipping partner" or "They don't x, y or z way so they are straight". etc.
If you're interested in more on this, The Yaoi Shelf featuring BL scholar Dr. Thomas Baudinette. A literal PhD
I think that there is one rule that everyone should folly, especially in BL. The rule is that people should remember that actors and their characters or roles are different and that they will never intertwine. Like who their chapter is in a relationship with is not the same with the actor.
Thank you for making this it feels like you summed it up so well. That scene in Not Me at the pride festival always makes me cry.
Yeah, being an actor in BL or any genre that appeal to mainly straight female fanbase can be really difficult to come out because of the expectation to be "manly." While PP Krit be out there and ready to prove everyone wrong. (There is a topic of beauty standard as well but that's not what we're talkin about today) I think the reason why people are so ready to label fanservice as queer-baiting is because it is a performance to some degree whether the actor doing it are queer or not and people don't like to be regarded as delulu.
Tho I do think BL need a term of their own that is not "queer-baiting."
I hate fan service. It blurs out the line between the actor as a professional and the person behind the mask. Fans don't realise actors have to do all this stuff to please them no matter if they want to or not and then get mad when actors do things they want to. We don’t own these actors. They are individuals with lives and a right to privacy but privacy and fan service don't match. Sometimes it's nice cause it's just co-workers/friends on a show together and they focus on the material but I always feel really uncomfortable when they very clearly put on display a relationship that doesn’t exist. Fans really need to dissasociate actors with their characters but they can't and I always feel bad for the actors who can't live freely. Many of them have to hide their lives or break up with their partners because of the harassment. Fans are ruining their idols lives but they couldn't care less because they weren't seen as people to begin with, only has property.
This is such a good video. I hope this opens the eyes of cishet fans who are not aware of how harmful stereotyping and forcing a person to come out is, and many other things! Thankyou!
I think we should focus our criticisms on the authors/directors/screenwriters etc... but not the actors. They are told what to do. And they are often quite powerless. So it's no use to target them.
Thank you for saying that an actor’s sexuality is their business. There are many factors in a person’s life that doesn’t allow them to safely express themselves. Heck! We have gender based violence, queer safe space is a myth in most asian countries… and so… if an actor is in BL industry and is queer, or even closeted queer … I will support them. But if corporations or production houses try to queerbait then i would raise a red flag… because in my opinion corporations and production houses have power unlike actors or individuals who are trying to find their footing and trying to just work… abuse of power to queerbait… is a complete no-no…
I would also have a beef with an actor if they actively benefitting off bl industry but still continue to be homophobic… these are straight hypocrites… of course we would need to wait and see… before cancelling any one out based on rumours
I don't know if I like the old BL industry or the new one in the old we didn't have these large amounts of toxic fans but we had a**holes actors who just wanted to use BL for the frame and in this new one we have toxics fans. but seeing how some actors feel free to make they're coming out gives me so much joy cause 6yrs ago we couldn't have gotten it. I'm sad about how entertainment industries use the Community for profit but still don't involve those in the Community only shows how evil and self-minded humans can be. I hope and pray that one-day things will get better
I know it's not relevant to the video but thank to you now I want to watch war of Y, I wasn't really fond to the synopsis but watching your video helped me
Thanks ~
❤The BL industry… u touched on question I asked myself… I’m a SF… why do I love them? 1st… I’m a sucker for good romance but also my univ dorm, of 1000 in the 1980s, embraced diversity and I had LGBTQ friends. Friends whose suffering was right there in front of me. Rejection from family, gay bashing, bad love w strt men, and how the only representation in western film focused on the emotional scars, lust, and self hatred. As a mom of 4 boys, if they should b gay, I wanted 2 b prepared to help them run the gauntlet experienced by the LGBTQ community. A grim prospect before BL. As kids they deserved to see their identity represented in healthy ways… with all the typical struggles… as we ALL should. Whatever the beginnings of BL may be the result is healthy as long as we, as viewers, respect that they are performers. As u said… Their private life is NONE OF OUR BUSINESS. You can tell which prod companies respect their actors and which force them to lie and treat them like commodities to be sold until they r used up. Same in every industry. Thanks 4 your great commentary.
Thank you for this video and it's really important to discuss and educate.
I do believe that yes, whilst queerbaiting is a thing, there are ppl nowadays who use it far too easily without properly knowing the definitions and the consequences.
You mentioned everything well in regards to capitalism and fanservice is mostly that (its not necessarily a bad thing just business). but I honestly prefer actors being vague about their sexualities because:
-it is simply non of our business.
-it helps protect that 1 person who might be questioning their sexuality and is closeted.
-it brings exposure to queer ppl and relationships which in turn normalises them.
The problem with fan service is that it risks blurring the lines between what is performance and what is genuine, both for the fans and particularly for the celebrities. Romance between costars, and fan service exists in western media as well (the Twilight series capitalised on the relationship between Robert Pattinson and Kristin Stewart every time a new movie was due to be released for example), it’s just the BL industry, particularly Thai but also in other countries to a lesser extent, takes the fan service to the extreme, creating couples to market the shows as well as anything else that can help fund future projects. Unfortunately having to constantly do fan service to sell this image can become counter productive to whatever the real relationship is behind the camera.
I think this is where the ZeeNunew situation currently is. No matter what the true nature of their private relationship is, it will forever be tainted by the fact that the industry expects fan service, so any interaction can be dismissed as not genuine. I’m on the fence about whether the Woody interview was an actual coming out - the phrasing and translation are clearly vague enough that it can be dismissed if it wasn’t received as expected. But if there is anything beyond a close friendship between the two of them, I think they would benefit from taking it all offline for the most part. Maybe still be scene publicly together, but do fewer interviews and minimise responses to questions about their relationship. It won’t happen in the near future (particularly with the cutie pie special episodes to be released in the future sometime), but one can hope.
I believe Zee and Nu are straight, and all of what we see is just fake. It just doesn't ring true with me that somehow magically, two actors cast together in the same series fall madly in love and start a real life relationship. Rubbish. It's all fan service as far as I'm concerned.
@@connie7128 I used to be that cynical, but have become more of a romantic as I got older. You never know where or when you will meet the people you connect with on a romantic level. I don’t know whether that was the case with zn - their private identities and relationship is their own and time will tell if they do continue to be a part of each other’s lives and share what they will in future. Even if it is primarily fan service, having someone in the industry who supports and encourages you behind the scenes to be the best version of yourself can only be a good thing.
Thank you for making this. It was so informative!!
I WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT AN ACTOR PLAYING A QUEER ROLE DOES NOT HAVE TO DISCLOSE THERE SEXUALITY BECAUSE THEY DO NOT OWE IT TO US AND IT IS NON OF OUR FUCKING BUSINESS.
This what I'm always trying to tell people getting into Asian bl or queer dramas ,we also need to always remember that these actors are human at the end of the day and are doing there job as actors.
When actors are blatantly assholes and borderline homophobic or homophobic,.shit needs to be called out . Coz an actor does not have to be gay or queer to be a respectful actor .
I was watching the video when I heard "I am Filipino" I was like, wow hello nice to see a Filipina talking about issues like these, kudos! I have one simple rule to myself about actors, performers that I like. A rule I apply to everyone, actually. People should be free to be themselves, and love whoever they want. No matter how obsessed I am with an actor or BTS member (haha), they're not marrying me anyway, so what's the point in wondering what their orientation is or whether or not they're in a relationship in real life? Yes capitalism sells them like merchandise but I'd like to somehow fight that by remembering that these are real people right here with real minds, real bodies, real feelings, real lives of their own, just like myself. I would not want others to force into me a person that isn't, so why do that to someone else? It all really boils down to basic respect towards other people.
I totally agree !! everyone assuming sexualities and bullying the actors for queerbait when they don't even know if they are queer or not... their personal lives are not our business, it's kinda sad how people are so disrespectful and know no boundaries
What I do want people to avoid is blatant biphobia when speaking about "queerbaiting". So many people act as if only gay men exist in the LGBTQ+ community and that when they get with a woman it suddenly means they are not "queer". People need to stop speculating on someone's queerness and let them be.
I watch the shows and invest in the characters of the story, not the actors' personal lives and their fanservice events. Makes everything simpler.
Largest BL industry: Thailand
Gay marriage in Thailand: not recognised
When it comes down to any type of series including Bl. I don’t focus on the fan service either. Some of it I understand is necessary because at the end of the day just like actors in the west they are trying to promote their shows to their targeted audience. An actors sexuality has no baring on the types of roles they play so long as they are able to project a convincing performance and the story of the plot presents a good story. Remember there are gay actors that are just as convincing playing straight roles when given the opportunity. At the end of the day it’s a story being performed usually based on fiction so not everything is going to reflect The real Queer baiting is when companies try to encourage their actors to promote the possibility they may be a real couple. I also don’t like it when videos or interviews go up giving a false narrative to promote this either. Yes there are some ships that will only work together like Boum and Prem or Off and Gunn but that could simply be they feel comfortable working with those actors doing those sort of roles. At the end of the day these guys have a right to a life away from their work and it is a shame when it is found out that they dating outside their ship they are being treated as though they lied to us all along. Instead of just letting them be .
Mine watching BLs since Sotus, and what I feel is, currently they are making production better day by day, not just the storyline and all. That's true that earlier they have many stereotypes in it but they are reducing them.
I think the term "queerbaiting" is thrown around a LOT when there are very few cases of it actually happening, imo. Most of the time it's just wishful thinking from the fans who get angry that their headcanons didn't come true(Voltron)*+. I can think of only two shows that I know of that actually fit what I would consider queerbaiting(Sherlock and Supernatural) and it's less about the sprinkling in some references and hints and more about the contempt for the fans while doing it. That's what betrayed those "hints" as queerbaiting rather than subtext or fun.
I agree with your linking it to things like rainbow capitalism more than anything. What's normally called queerbaiting is closer to Disney using "we've got a gay character!" and then that character having one line about it. The film/tv show is not queerbaiting, the marketing team is setting up expectations that it knows the film/tv show did not have. I think this is where some bl fanservice can sit, especially earlier on, when it was more obvious that this was a contracted mandate, rather than something the actors were doing for fun or for the fans.
*I've seen people(not many, but enough) accusing Glee of queerbaiting because their ship didn't happen. GLEE. Which fully accounted for nearly half of network tv's queer characters during it's later seasons.
+Loki, too. Loki is bisexual/pansexual, just because he falls in love with Sylvie does not erase his bisexuality! The show was not queerbaiting. The bisexuality was not inserted as a marketing tactic. It was inserted because it is both an established character trait(from the comics) and because the showrunner is bisexual and wanted to make it clear it was canon in the MCU.
twitter.com/iamkateherron/status/1407633677484539906
First off, I love your content.😊🙏 Calm, non-hysterical, intelligent articulate discussion is so cool to hear and all too rare. I had not heard the term "queer-baiting" before but it doesn't surprise me. Anything is up for exploitation in capitalist systems. It is fucking ugly. And it is pandering isn't it? I only discovered the BL genre (I don't like the term "BL") about 18 months ago by accident but I love it and have watched what I can - all Asian and mainly Thai productions (I was surprised when marriage equality didn't pass) I am completely ignorant of what goes on behind the scenes and had not realised just how contrived the industry is. The fan service thing shocked me! So rabid and vicious, and "shipping" as its own entity and as a construct of the industry also shocked me. I do subscribe to certain channels on here to learn about what is happening and see extra stuff on actors/shows I like. I am watching War of Y and omg I had no idea of the level of toxicity and cynicism. I had already decided that I loathed "shipping" as it seemed to put tremendous pressure on these actors to be a certain way and how it must consume so much energy to not destroy the "fantasy" of the fans. Fan service has really opened my eyes. But what horrified me were the managers and how pervasive the fan-service is and what is expected. I had assumed the actors were gay as I could not imagine many straight men doing these roles, even though I was a huge fan of Queer As Folk (UK and US versions) back in the day. It is so brutal. I also had watched Lovely Writer a while back and loved it. The casting scene was so funny and depressing at the same time. What I have also found interesting is that no one seems to be talking about War Of Y as a series. Usually each series is mentioned in a list or because of the cast but no one is talking about it. I want to see what people think as it is such a far cry from the reality of we see.
I think, too, the term "queer-baiting" itself can be used to silence discussion. Like political correctness, there is a valid reason that is distorted for sinister purposes, usually to discourage open discussion. I also agree that people's sexuality is not my business. No one's business. Let actors act. If it is consensual and not hurting anyone who cares? I had assumed Tong was out already as he has been in a few shows that I have seen. I never occurred to me that it could be viewed in a negative light. He was the actual light of KinnPorsche and, for me, made that show fantastic. Who cares who he sleeps with in his personal life? There really doesn't seem to be anything good about fan-service and what should be a bounty and success for the actor seems to be a straight (forgive the pun) jacket. And I haven't even started on the lesbian or lack of series.
I just saw this video on my home page and I'm so glad I watched it. I couldn't agree more. The way you explain and break down everything is just amazing.
Thank you so much. 💕
I love how you cleared up everything on what is happening about this genre. Same thinking here.
I only intend to watch BL stories and series, and stayed away watching fan service and some Shorts. It feels strange actually.
Not to mention people going after the actors when they have partners of the opposite gender as if only 2 sexualities exist. People can be bi, pan, demi etc
There is definitely queer baiting at play especially in these interviews of various BL actors. However fans are delusional to think two actors are actually romantically involved in real life. It's called ACTING for a reason. Enjoy the BL for it's story and characters but don't delude yourself to think these actors are actually in love. They may not even be close friends just two people who choose a role they knew they would do well and advance their career. People get too invested and thus their expectations become unrealistic. Therefore they react poorly once they're faced with the reality that these are just two people doing their jobs and nothing more. However I don't appreciate when actors skirt around various questions but that's the game they play to continue working
I'm not part of the LGBTQA+ community and I'm muslim so I grown up in a totally different environment of this. But bro, I'm tired of seeing :
- those comedic trans women,
- the cliché like "u're my wife " when they're both men ,
- plot with only sexual tension without character feeling development,
- the fan service to promote those BL,
- the lack of originality the story,
- Th girls and boy who harass the gay couple campus on social media like paparazzi,
- The shipping etc...
Bcz damn, it's not a representation of the reality!
Moon, I hadn't even heard about queer baiting until you educated me and I'm Gay. I'm proud of Ton! 🙋🏻♂️🌈. 🇺🇸🤝🇵🇭
For me, I think the bigger issue the from the so called fan community. The community is toxic and it's almost at the stage where any onscreen couple is alleged to be a couple in real life. To my knowledge, not a single onscreen couple have confirmed they are in a relationship. None. Fan service is not a relationship and no one should make comments, statements or post videos 'confirming' relationships. Further, it's none of our business if they are in a relationship or not. They do not belong to us, they are human beings and deserve our respect
Thank you so much for such a factual, informative video on this topic. I’m not sure why fan service in Thailand is so prominent, but it unfortunately is. I 100% agree with how you said people accusing actors of queerbaiting is harmful & worrying. Fans see the amount of BL dramas coming out of Thailand and immediately assume that the country’s government & citizens are accepting and supportive because “why wouldn’t they be if so many dramas are being produced in Thailand?” After what happened to Kit Connor just a month or two ago, I believe people need to get full confirmation that the actor is straight before immediately assuming they’re doing it for the fan service. It’s crazy how men can’t have *platonic* relationships (friendships) without fans going to the worst case scenario (which is queerbaiting in this context).
From someone who has been in this bubble for so long, i feel amazed by how this little world changed, of course there is still problems to be discussed, many of them, but things are better, so much better that it makes me emotional a bit.
Speaking as someone who ships ZeeNunew HARD, like, I will need to go back to therapy if they ever break up/turn out to not be real...
I'm new to Thai BL (Y), but already disturbed by some of the fan behavior I've heard about. The other day I saw a video of my dear OTP taken candidly at a restaurant, and when the person filming was spotted, Nunew smiled and waved, reacted to this intrusion very pleasantly, but as I commented on the video, this made me sad. I feel awful that the two of them can't go anywhere without being recorded and shrieked at. Another viewer responded to my comment with basically, "Just be happy for them, they knew what they signed up for."
Did they, though? Does any 19-year-old giving the entertainment business a try expect to be paired with his idol (and let's be honest, crush), to get a difficult role as his first acting experience, and to end up in a relationship in which he can't so much as touch his boyfriend's shoulder without a crowd screaming insanely when he does? My guess is that no actor who gets into BL/Y, no matter how street-smart, expects life to become that weird. Just as awful is the flip side, where the relationship onscreen isn't real and an actor has to hide his girlfriend or risk losing everything he's worked for.
I'm so grateful to Zee and Nunew for allowing us to see so much of their lives. Having so much of them to watch has done wonders for my depression and anxiety, and I'm autistic, thus very good at obsessing over what I love, LOL. But there are times where even I say to my laptop screen, "Guys, thank you, but really, you don't have to let us see everything about your lives." An example that springs to mind I saw in one of the Behind Cutie Pie episodes, in which Nunew is, on camera, being coached on the sex scene he's about to do, his first (though not first intimate scene), about how he shouldn't be embarrassed if he...reacts to being touched the way he's about to be. It was a vulnerable moment that I, who will probably never even meet Nunew, had no business being privy to.
Zee and Nunew have stated that they dislike fanservice and will not do it, that the way they behave on-camera is the same as off-camera, and their close friends/colleagues happily confirm this to anyone who will listen. Therefore, I can say without regret that the industry really needs to start weaning fans off of the steady drip of fanservice they've become accustomed to. It's exploitative of the actors, and it's not even good for the fans themselves. It's just feeding a delusion.
Just to let you know, it's been confirmed that they (ZeeNunew) are an actual couple. I just want them to be happy and not be surrounded around toxicity of shippers out there, smfh- As a bi woman supporting LGBT films from around the world as much as I can, I just find this whole 'fan service' thing baffling and I also just can't with these ppl who are SOOOO obsessed with these actors to the point where they legit analyze their EVERY move. It's disgusting!!!
Great video as always Kayla!
Excellent Excellent commentary. As a straight black woman I completely agree with everything you said and have made similar comments on this topic. It's highly problematic across the board. It's also so disturbing how toxic some fans are in demanding to know the sexuality of an actor.
This is my thoughts on the subject almost exactly. I'm a queer nonbinary person, although my research is about English in Thailand not media or queerness (except as a hobby). My only note is that in Thailand soft power primarily means promoting Thailand internationally through culture exports (see: every article about Milli as the first Thai act at Coachella bringing up soft power). It can mean influencing domestic perspectives and politics, the way you use it, but I wanted to let you know about the connotation in a Thai context.
This and the kpop industry/fandom are so similar that it scares me.. both sides hide something, always been like that.
Honest Straightforward Video on the problem and Issues Queer Baiting is still happening in the BL entertainment industry
Can I just say how necessary your video is? This is a serious issue, should be talked more. Lgbtqia+ people really need to understand what harms our community, also educate ourselves on how not to replicate bigotry and prejudice. Thank you for raising the discussion ❤️
I absolutely love your content, it's so important to consider diff factors before forming an opinion and you always talk about things keeping them in mind
Just don't make assumptions about people; whether it be negative, positive or neutral assumptions can all be seen as rude towards the individual. Of course, this is easier in theory, but at least recognise that it's only assumptions. And just try not to label anyone or group people together. We don't know what someone is thinking if they don't tell us, and even then, it could be untrue. Just let people live their lives. Maybe I'm dense for saying this: but I think that if someone truly doesn't want to partake in something they will say so or show it through their actions whether money and/or popularity plays a part in it or not.
it's also upsetting how BL actors are forced on fan service even if they aren't comfortable with it. What happens to toxic fans who think they are in a relationship in real life, like, are these actors forced to keep their sexuality private on every talk show they go to? I get it, their sexuality is none of our business, but then, the more Talk shows you see, all those queer hosts running TH-cam channels who promote BL are often seen cracking the same, repetitive jokes o how they seem to be real or how close they are sitting, like they are some kind of animal put on screen for us to observe and run our imaginations. Even a slight brush of their hands compels the editors to have those pink filters with hearts and music, like it's a clear exaggeration. Sometimes it's so forced and cringy that I stop immediately. Like, trying so hard to show the audience how invested they are into each other, the skin ship which could be seen as normal human behavior between anyone is exaggerated. It's upsetting to see them queerbaiting while they belong to the same community. On one hand I feel bad for them because let's be real, the industry was never kind to LGBT no matter how much we deny it, so they have to survive off whatever the audience wants to be fed. But at the same time, I feel sick when I see the harsh reality of this toxic BL industry.
I love GL BL series a lot! I am a straight female but love to watch series or movies of all kind n BL series or movies are my fav 😊 but what I don’t understand is how some fans cross the line of what support means, it’s ok to ship the characters but not the actor, we don’t need to know if they are gay n in a relationship just support them with their careers at the end of the day they work as actors and they are acting in those series or movies
As a queer person I don't rly like the word queer baiting cause it's rly often used where it's absolutely doesn't make sense. I personally like fan service as long as it is in a balanced amount and the actors feel comfortable. I'm absolutely against it to put bl actor's under pressure to "act" gay or sth. Same goes for their sexuality. For me as a viewer I don't need to know their sexuality or who they're dating. I just want to watch these series (I don't rly have sth against the gay clichees they use cause I personally like the exaggeration as someone who's gay too, as long as it's in a respectful way). There are mostly two points I rly criticize in bl series, one is how trans people are portrait as always being kind of a joke, I'm trans and sometimes it hurts a bit that in these series people always laugh about people like me and also that the men who are often playing trans women look kinda "cheap" on purpose so that everyone can laugh about them. The other thing I don't like is that often the storys are just built up on sexual content rather than an actual plot, ofc I like skinship but only if it's appropriate and fitting for the story it's always depending
I rly hope in future bl fans and the entertainments can see these actors as what they are, just actors who a playing a role.
Imo, a role is a role. Your job as an actor is to embody a character and bring their story to life on stage or on camera. You do not have to relate to a character in order to play them. You also do not have to agree with the characters personality or lifestyle to play them either. If we use that standard then that would mean every actor who plays a role that is morally reprehensible or stereotypical supports those things in their real life.
Lots of gay actors play straight characters and vice versa. It's just a job and actors take roles for various reasons and do not have to turn a role down just because they are not an exact replica of the character themselves.
As far at queer baiting goes. That's a reach. They step in and out of those characters at fan meetings and interviews because the fans enjoy it. Doesn't mean they're dating, or LGBT and it doesn't have to be that way either. Unless they offer their orientation or relationship status, it's not anyone's place to assume.
And also I feel like fans assuming that two people are dating can actually be super dangerous, especially for actors who live in more conservative places or even just have conservative family. If I am correct, didn't Xiao Zhan and Wang Yibo end up not even allowed to be near each other anymore because fan shipping got so big that the government intervened? Because that was awful, this type of toxic fan culture driving a huge wedge between two friends! For any actors who are actually queer or even dating, that puts them in a super dangerous and generally shitty stiuation, forced to come out, potentially losing their relationship, etc.
I'm personally in the opinion that real people shouldn't be accused of queerbaiting purely for the reasons you said - no one owes anyone else an explanation of their sexual or gender identity. A lot of that also assumes being straight, cis, and alloromantic and allosexual are the default and I personally hope that stops happening as much if at all.
That being said, I definitely think within the bl industry there's a lot of awful stuff going on, things like rainbow capitalism or things similar, the fan service and encouragement of fetishization of queer people - mainly gay men- and more. None of it is what I would consider queerbaiting, but it's still bad.
Even if these actors ARE queer, what about if they just simply don’t have interest in the other actor they have to be a “couple” with??😢 they have no choice but to “love” the actor that got chosen to be their partner all because of fans/fan service and money. Just cuz you’re gay doesn’t mean you’ll fall in love with any other gay person you see🫠