Time still remains the biggest factor when analyzing costs. Unless you are 100% certain you will be keeping the boat for those 3000 cycles, you will simply be eating those upfront costs when you go to sell the boat as it will be extremely difficult to obtain a premium on your sale price due to the batteries. Good breakdown, thanks.
Great comparison. All of this assumes you will own the boat/batteries for the full 5000 cycles. Most people sell their boats after 7 years. Assuming you’d be doing one full cycle per day (that’s a huge power drain for most people unless you’ve dramatically undersized your batter bank) 5000 cycles divided by 365 means it will take 13.7 years to use all the kWh’s available. So really your buying great batteries for the next owner of the boat since you’ll only get half the value from them. Something to consider is how much benefit you get from the investment. Yes, the will add value to the boat. Something I’m not factoring in, but I think I’d rather take the $ saved and upgrade electronics, ground tackle, standing and running rigging, tender, etc. Lots to think about. 😊 Thanks again guys, great video.
It's interesting how we consider batteries to be a piece of consumable disposable equipment. Just because lead acid batteries are that way doesn't mean all batteries are that way. Lithium batteries can be considered to be a permanent piece of equipment like standing rigging ground tackle electronics and every other piece of equipment on a boat. 5000 Cycles is 20 to 40 years for most people and is longer than your sails your rigging even your motor may last!
I would think that a lithium ion Bank of batteries in a boat would increase its value by a bit.personally, if I could not get the value of the batteries in the sale of the boat, the batteries would go with me to my next boat.
@@richardnwilson Exactly and your electronics, navigation, and other hardware will be obsolete and replaced two, or three times before the batteries need replacing. Hell, they could outlast the boat depending on the vessel and how life, in general, can be over that many years.
@@jeffwood8109 I was thinking the same thing, but if I were shopping for a boat to make into a hybrid, and came across one with the significant purchase already included in the boat with a good part of their usable life left, hell yeah I'd pay a fair price for it in a heartbeat. I'd have to think long and hard about selling a boat with my LifePO batteries, and unless I got my price, I would buy some cheap AGM's and keep my LifePO for the new boat, or home and maybe a hunting camp solar power setup.
Plus IMO the boat has been devalued by removing the diesel engine. Going green is great but i hate to think about you guys stuck somewhere in a storm with depleted batteries and no longer with the diesel option to go to.
Thank you for a very good video on batteries and especially mentioning the fact that fast charging is bad for batteries ! I also liked the fact that you mentioned the price per kilowatt hour as well which provides a much more meaningful context for letting users understand the true value of the batteries for cost vs life. Also for performance catamarans battery weight will also affect performance when a dozen batteries are installed, so there is a sailing penalty as well. Welding is crazy since the current draw against the internal battery resistance (and yes all batteries have some) will cause internal excessive heating and may reduce life and/or possibly be a safety hazard. Not worth it !! Do all you welding at the docks unless an emergency situation.
I have had good luck with 6 volt golf cart batteries. My previous sailboat was a Gozzard 36 I replaced the house bank with 6 golf cart batteries to make 3 big 12 volts when wired in series/parallel had 645 amp hours off that house bank. I paid $500 for the 6 batteries back in 2010. My Dad also did his 34 foot sailboat with me at the time with the same system 9 years on his Sam Club golf cart batteries are still in his boat today and still working. I think its best to keep it simple on a cruising sailboat especially if you plan to cruise the tropics Latin America ect. Good luck with hi tech batteries in third world countries if you encounter a problem golf cart batteries can be bought cheap all over the World. for the same amp hour house bank as golf cart expect to pay 10 times the price or more in Lithium. A 12 volt 200ah lithium deep cycle battery is around 2500.00 bucks.
I agree with you 110% ! IMHO, golf cart batteries are by far the "best bang for the buck" in the lead acid family ! A pair (you always need a pair because they are only 6V) will have over 200 Ah of capacity and if you shop around, in the US, you can find them for about $90 a piece (flooded, AGM golf cart batteries are much moire expensive). The other thing not mentioned is that golf cart batteries are TRUE deep discharge. They are designed to be discharged to 50% SOC while most (all?) dual-purpose "marine" batteries really should not be discharged more than about 80% for maximum life. Golf cart batteries are often used in stationary solar installations until the person can afford to move up to solar or LiFePO4 batteries. I think the "jury is still out" on LiFePO4 battery life. Time will tell.
I agree, that's always the main question I ask myself. The price for LiFePO4 is horrible. Nobody knows how long they last in reality. I remember the same promises on AGM and I remember the first AGM lasted for 1 year only. The manufacturer said, the batteries where not made for boat use and get probs with vibration. So my first question is, how many years of experience do they have in reality. The next question is, when I discharge all batteries down to 50% only, where is the advantage then. Its true (or isn't it) when I use a 400AH batterie bank in lead acid I could use 200 AH in LiFePO4. What I have seen is all people uses the sam capacity of the batterie. "Only" 200 AH would cost 2000 Bucks In Europe about 3000 Euros. 400AH Lead Acid would cost max 500 to 600 Euros. My bank lasted for 10 years - permanent solar and wind power charged. Fair winds Tom
@@wanambi8553 I been playing golf my whole life as well and worked in golf cart barns when I was younger. If 6 golf cart batteries can power a golf cart with two 230 pound men for 8 hours over 36 holes of Golf and be drained down to ZERO. And recharged time and time again. They are good enough for most RVs and or most Sailboats. Sure if your racing a sailboat around the World of if your going to the North Pole on your sailboat you may need to look into other options.
My old Gozzard had the Original Westerbeke 46 diesel. It hated to start in temps below 50 F. I had two group 31 for the starting batteries it was not enough to start my engine in January cold days in Florida. I would switch to my house bank to fire up the Westerbeke without the group 31 bank. And BANG that golf cart bank had alot of power would fire the old Westerbeke 46 right up.
@Jack Patteeuw - You really need to watch what all is 'labeled' as Deep Discharge. Not all of them truely are such. Many are simply repackaged basic batteries. Sadly as pointed in this video, there is very lil actual data and details on many of these, such as actual cycle life and even if it does per what actual rate DoD. Or even the recommended DoD to begin with. Are some hints to look for, if it claims to charge quickly (like in an hour) ... that is NOT a Deep Discharge battery. If it has high CCA, its unlikely a deep discharge. Also while most Deep Discharge such as G31 golf cart can be run down to 50% DoD, that may or may not be the best cycle life for them. I have heard some experts hint that Trojans for example are better and will last much longer at more like 70% DoD. But this is all info and details that most batteries simply do not provide, even when they really are true Deep Discharge. The sad part is true Deep Discharge if taken down to 50% DoD, will likely require a good 5 to 7 hrs to recharge. Not many cruisers fully recharge them back up to full. USAGE is a key that unfortunately Jordan left out of this video. And uhm at only over 200 aH, you are either not cruiser or using very little power. While many are around I am sure, todays more tech world, that is less likely every day. LifePO4 have been going strong since mid 2000's in Off-grid, RV, and marine cruisers applications for over a decade now. How much time is needed to tell?
When I started messing around with Solar back in the late 90s I built a battery generator and I ran a small 110V Lincoln welder for about 45 mins to 50 mins and that was lead acid batteries. What's going to hold you up on lithium batteries is your duty cycle on your welder and the inverter. Watch your boat tours quite often appreciate it teachers me things looking forward to seeing your boat on the water..
Thanks for the shoutout Jordan! We are still very happy with our battery choice. If we had the money, we'd have Battleborn as well, maybe on the next boat :)
I purchased a BattleBorn BB10012 and it’s awesome. I use it for 10hrs a day powering my 12V minnkota 50lb thrust trolling motor, and when I check it at the end of the day it is still 70% charged.
Excellent discussion :-) I recently had an argument in favor of Lithium Ion Batteries... The negative side suggested that they were prone to catching fire... I said, "Show me proof". the party shut up... Samsung had trouble with their Cellular Phones catching fire, but corrected the problem. Their BMS was faulty... End of story. However, the notion that all LI batteries are prone to the same issues is long dead. Having said that, one must make sure their BMS is up to the task... Cheap ones from China are notorious for being faulty, if they even work... You get what you pay for... Nuf said...
Electrician here, the weak point on all lithium batteries is the bms system , you are correct when you sah not to buy cheap generic lithium batteries, the bms system on most of these leave a lot to be desired. I personally still use trojan 6v batteries , its old tech which is actually a good thing on a cruising yacht , i maintain the batteties fortnightly and usually get 7 years out of them .. lithium batteries by thier nature are a suseptable to thermal runaway ,lithium chemistry mentioned in this video is the most stable, but care still needs to be taken , anothdr piont worth mentioning is the high discharge rate can cause really high fault currents , whereas a lead acid battery due to its internal resistance limits fault current to give time for a fuse of cb to trip ( most cbs and fuses are thermal and take time to trip by the time a fuse trips on a lithium battery sometimes current rise is so quick and high a fire can result.. also lithium batteries do gas out if overtemped, the will produce floride gas not sure on the quantity but floride gas can be very dangerous in sufficient quantities
Lead acid also cope with massive discharge better than lithium or AGM which is why they make better crank batteries and you can weld directly off them.
Just finally saw this. What a great overview and summary of battery technologies! I just went electric myself, trading my 5HP Honda for an 82lb thrust 24V trolling motor and 2 X 12V deep cycle wet marine batteries for my 20' Farrier Super Tramp trimaran. I didn't get to pick my batteries in the trade, but I am sure this setup will work fine for my little boat on a small lake. Good job!
The big issue with all of the appliances you mentioned is the INVERTER ! Obviously you want a pure-sine-wave inverter. There are some DC* refrigerators and even DC* air conditioner (heavy duty, long haul trucks). These are expensive. If you stay with conventional AC powered refrigerators and air conditioners I recommend you add a "soft start" circuit to each. If you have a big enough inverter, you could probably run a 120V welder, but those have very little power so you would be limited to thin metal. I put an asterisk (*) above on those appliances because "technically" the motor is not a DC motor. Yes, you hook the appliance directly to DC (battery) power, but inside each of those devices is a small DC to 3 phase AC inverter. The inverter and motor are perfectly/optimally matched. Yes, I am a techno-geek, picking nits.
Thanks for the video since I am comparing Firefly & Lithium right now. I thought the cost comparison between these 2 batteries are NOT just the cost of the batteries but also the potential ancillary equipment surrounding the battery such as chargers, regulators. One might only look at the battery cost if you are installing a new house bank and need to do wiring and buying all other equipments from new. However, most boats are doing "UPGRADE" so if one factor into chargers, regulators, alternators, other BMS, etc, the cost can add up. I am not being critical but want to validate my thought process since I am going through the Firefly vs Lithium exercise.
I have a pretty substantial system in my boat. 3 Jl audio HD 600/4's and a HD 750/1. AGM batteries WITHOUT A DOUBT last MUCH longer than regular lead acid! I use to replace batteries ever damn year. Good Agms have lasted me 3 to 4 years. You Gotta do the whole thing right though... Battery fet isolator, and a good high output alternator is a must as well. 220 amp does me right
Great comparison Jordan. Even if you are not on a boat the LiFePh batteries would be the better choice for an off grid home. If you can't afford a full compliment for the bank, get what you can and then add until you get there. Take care and have a good weekend.
You clearly did not go and rob the local cell network lithuim batteries that get stolen by the millions every day in SA. Its cheap as chips lithuim paradise in the townships
The batteries I used in my old Fuji 40 which I took to Mexico for a year was Trojan 6V Gulfcart flooded. I used four of them for about 540 amp hrs. My two 130 watt solar panels kept them topped off nicely. But being in a hot climate they seemd to use water faster than normal and I did have the water saver caps on them. For a starting battery for my motor I used two goup 31 agm batteries as I wanted to make sure that motor cranked over. In my last boat my CT 47 CC Cutter I had the Lithium Ion Gen. 1 batteries, they held a charge great but were so dang sensitive to overvoltage, they actually were the cause of a bad overvoltage that ended up making my whole charging system on my main to melt down. After replaceing all the wires, chargers, regulators, fuses, and batteries everything was fine. And no I did not go back to the Lithium Ion, went to a AGM.
So you didn't understand the voltage requirements of the batteries you had? So instead of blaming yourself for the fail, you blame the batteries? So can you explain what a gen 1 lithium ion battery is?
Thanks for the information, you obviously spent time researching this. The part often omitted from the cost analysis is the supporting hardware, for example Lithium charge controllers vs standard lead acid ones. Also I have heard of requirements to upgrade alternators because of the higher acceptance rates and the extended high charging loads. It would be interesting to see someone do this kind of analysis to give a fuller picture.
Great comparison, Gone with the Wynns also did one with a great visual component in theirs as I plan to keep my boat for a long time I will pay the upfront costs and go with Ion.
I run a 240v 180amp inverter mig at half power on a 3kw inverter generator which will weld 4mm steel easily. So I imagine a 3kw inverter should work ok, it will be interesting to see if the lipos will cope with a 300 to 400amp load if they do I'm investing in some new batteries
What most people don't know about welders is that the out voltage is fairly low, but the current is very high ! Many people have stick welded with two 12V batteries in series (24V). Some smart person some day will make a good MIG welder (>150A) that will run directly off of 24/48VDC ! Good MIG weld does require a shield gas. The flux core wire just does not cut it.
Your analysis works for liveaboards who are big consumers of electricity. For the majority of the week-end sailors or for a 2 week vacation on the water, your conclusion is misleading. You have an electric motor and you need a lot of capacity. You have a large solar panel to keep your batteries charged and Lithium is a better solution as it charges quickly. Most boaters have a Diesel engine which charges the batteries while they get in and out of the harbor on a day sail. The solar panel takes over the rest of the day. Before buying a battery, ask yourself "what kind of sailing do I do"?. Cheers, Richard
Actually the analysis works for anyone. Lithium is cheaper per kilowatt-hour than lead acid no matter how much or how little you use. The one exception would be if you didn't think you would keep your boat long enough to utilize the full life expectancy of the battery.
@@richardnwilson It is a question of consumption. If you go out for a week-end and you do not have a frig., you need very little electrical energy. Half the capacity of a lead acid battery would be fine. Then you have the rest of the week (while you work...) to get the battery recharged with a small solar panel. It all depends on your needs and liveaboard style.
The analysis does NOT work for everyone, as kW/H will vary depending upon DoD (and ofc price). At 50% of DoD the Firefly Oasis will be cheaper. At only 20% DoD and a decent golf cart battery will be cheaper kW/H. Can get some of those for lil over $100, or pay double that and can find some with 1500 cycles, which means that will work out cheaper. 50% DoD = Firefly Oasis $0.20 kW/H vs Battleborn LifePO4 $0.52 kW/H 20% DoD = G31 1500 cycles $0.49 kW/H vs Firefly Oasis $0.51 kW/H vs Battleborn LifePO4 $1.12 kW/H
Gratitude Jordan 4 sharing the interest !! Very smart research I appreciate the information !! Love seeing the old diesel come out and electric going in it'll really pay for itself in the long run I believe . As long as you're producing the kilowatt hours to keep up with what ever even the welding why even hesitate ? I've worked a few construction sites in the past that were 100% solar with battery Bank Electric . Seem to have no problem keeping up with air compressors saws ................ everybody charge their batteries and there were three crews of subcontractors out there each with a minimum of three guys one crew had five . the couple building the house also their own general contractor we're already living there and had two refrigerators to freezers and I don't know what else running while everybody else was working nobody seemed to have a problem . I was truly impressed they had solar with the windmill backup . They said if the sun's not shining the windows usually blowing . they also mentioned the system cost them a little over 45,000 . please don't hesitate to keep us updated with new information . maintenance and upkeep as time goes along . great video thank you !!! you and Randy are an excellent team never feel sorry for taking a break we all need that and it would be interesting to see if Randy does a video while you're taking a break and I'm sure you're both invested in editing and putting together most all the videos . hey it's your Channel please share all the interest you like to share the more we know the further we all go and we all should be sharing information . 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍❣ HHBpHhelps
Very informative. Thank you for posting this information. I am planning an electric motor conversion in a the next few years and will definitely be converting to Li-Ion batteries!
It all come down to what you want to weld (yard art vs. something structurally) how thick and what type of material . Steel and stainless are pretty straight forward. Aluminum is a whole other story! Welding manufactures say the smaller machines will do aluminum but only with in a narrow window ( i worked for Lincoln Electric for my career). Most people buy a small machine and over time push the envelope of what they try to weld. This is when things go bad. Stick with a major manufacturer and stay within the machines capabilities and learn the right way to weld.
KUDOS to you Jordan! Great explanation and maybe even the best one I've seen in the last two years. I watch 100 sailing channels and have seen this subject spoken about often. I also think a lot of people don't realize how much effort goes into a factual video like this. WELL DONE! PEACE OUT! Ü ps, I didn't miss Randy one bit! HA HA!
Great video, good info. I have found that if the batteries (AGM specifically) are on a smart trickle charger when not being used, they last an incredible long time. Assuming you do not completely discharge them when using or, boat is sitting with no means to charge. They usually last much longer then what you would expect. I just replaced the house batteries in my boat. They were Group 29 AGM's from 2010 and 2011. They were used to power up my Navionics, autohelm , radio, etc. when I sailed. I also alternated the batteries to start my diesel engine. I believe my "cost" experience is less than what you shared. I do not have solar or wind generated power and my boat is either on my mooring in one location for half the New England season (with no power to charge) and on my slip with shore power for the other half of the season. The Lithium ion batteries sound great. Just still pretty expensive for me.
Yes. I have gone to AGM motorcycle batteries in each of my bikes and the deep cycle in my sailboat i just bought is one also i believe and i will likely just add another of those deep cycles. I think there is the deep cycle and also one lead acid and from what i understand that should come out. The outboard is pull start only so i don't need a battery for a starter motor but i read that you shouldn't mix the two types. Yet he kind of groups gel and AGM in with lead acid here. At least in some respects.
Yes you can I've already done it Harbor Freight offers up small welder AC arc welder with Tig it's a 110 unit I have one it works great you pick it up for $375 and I put it on a 12000 Watt inverter I have which is overkill you don't need that much for it but if I could do it here you can do it there
Have you ever considered make some of you videos available as a podcast, I drive around a lot and could get quite a lot out of then even if I only had audio , cheers warren
I will stick with traction batteries , im an electrician and iwork with all battety chemistry's daily , i disagree with your assertion that wet cell batteries are not recommended , for a cruising monohull with a diesel auxiliary they would be my top choice due to simplicity , reliability and safety. . Lithium offers great depth of discharge and weight savings , its impossible to give a average service/cycle life yet. Ive found tne bms fails long before the service life is reached
@@bluejeans725 I guess time will tell. Personally if I faced a situation where a company that was supposed to honor the warranty was no longer there, I would feel free to open up the battery either try to repair the BMS, or or use the internal lithium ion cells and create my own.
@@bluejeans725 well yes if it was near the end of life then you're right. But let's say it fails 5 years in and the warranty can't be honored. Then it might be worthwhile buying one of those BMS off of eBay and making it work.
@@jeffwood8109 Imho it is a better proposition not to buy an overpriced internally regulated mis-nomer drop in battery containing hundreds of no name cells that is covered in marketing promises. I wrote a message elsewhere on this video where I detail why.
@@bluejeans725and if that's the choice you make then you are welcome to it. Certainly no one on TH-cam has the power to force you to use something you don't want. So I'll just stick to my inefficient and less educated ways, and get the job done, while you sit around and wait for perfection apparently. You have a nice day 😘
Hi the overall best batteries are 2volt cells wet forklift batteries, 48volts 56kw pack will last 8 years even if you run them every you can run them down 80% as well in uk the cost is £4.500 pounds GB.they power my 6 ton 32ft motor cruiser all day,cheers adrian uk
Good info. Here is the way I see it. I buy Trojan T-105's for $120. 6V 225 AH each. With 4 I have 450 AH for $480. Granted I can only go to 50% SOC and have to add water occasionally and will have to replace every 4-5 years, but with LED lights, LED TV, etc they do fine running 43 ft. boat including refrig. Also handle the 2,500 watt inverter running microwave, etc. With L ION I need 4 to get to 400 AH. That's $3,800. Granted can discharge further, longer life, etc but I can buy 8 sets of Trojans for roughly the same amount of money. Before I pay for the L ION's I will purchase 6 Lifeline 2V 1,200 AH for $650 each, total of $3,800, giving me 1,220 AH at 12v. This will allow me to run my 16,000 BTU AC all night without the generator. If I built that system with L ION it would take 12 batts costing $11,400. I am sure there are arguments against this as well as technical difference and considerations I haven't taken into account but I know the Lifeline system works and so does the Trojan scenario without the AC. My point is L ION is still to expensive.
Great comparison! I was surprised that only the li-polymer-phosphate batteries are "approved" for marine use. In the country we keep our boat, noone cares what battery I use... I just bought a few hundred of used laptop batteries and finished charging the 18650s..:)
I had a light welder I ran from my work truck for years, ran off of an inverter, and it came in handy many a time. Great video, and just so happens I've been researching batteries. I figure that maybe putting one or two of my kids on the market might get enough for a couple of Battleborn batteries, but one way or the other. I'm joking, of course. I lucked out on a 20KW 48V DC motor for $900; there's an interesting story behind how that happened too. That being said, I'll need somewhere between $12,000 and $16,000 worth of batteries, and I'm going to be contacting Battleborn about some kind of a discount on that kind of volume; hell, I'll sing their praise and put a sticker on the boat. I'm looking at keeping the diesel as an emergency auxiliary drive, and also, it will be running a 48V generator when needed. I'm looking at 450W of solar, already have 300W. Along with wind and current, I should rarely need the diesel, but I plan to do the Atlantic one more time before my ashes are cast into the sea, and I'm not ready to do it on batteries alone. I've done it once many moons ago as a young man with an old friend on his 35-foot Pilothouse sloop. I'd be lying if I said it didn't scare the shit out of us once a 1000 miles out, but we made it, and the trip back was much better because we not only knew what to expect, but also what to take. Though I admire what you and Randy are doing, off the grid on renewables alone, would you sail from Barbados to the Cape Verde Islands? What concerns me is that for days there would be no wind to speak of, then we went days and days with inclement weather, storm jib out and two reefs in the main; your solar is worthless, and without power and propulsion you're adrift, and that's not good. I also want to add A/C, washer Dryer, and watermaker, and as you know, they are current and wattage hog. But you don't have to run the watermaker all the time, and the washer/dryer very seldom. The A/C, depending on the BTU, you run when you need it like at night. Now on a 35 to 38-foot boat, I'm going to make do with a 5000 BTU. If one insulates well it should be fine, I don't want to hang meat.
I got 2 lithium valence batteries and got screwed, they were ok for half a season until we went on a trip 2 weeks in the frig ran them down beyond recovery,I was told by the eBay seller that they had a controller that would prevent this. I spoke to valence who said they DO NOT HAVE A CONTROLLER, you need to have an independent battery monitor ! in order to know what is happening with them. if you go lithium buy a battery that has tech support
Great plan on the battery system. Id figure the minimum power requirements and get a backup generator just in case. It might not run for years but if something kills your battery system in the middle of the night in the middle of the ocean you might be glad you have it. Take care.
Ya I just bought a sabre 34 with out Solar. It has 3 new agm 12 volts, so I got a 2000watt generator and plug it right into the shore power at anchor and can run the whole boat and charge the batteries. Can get knock off Honda Generators for under $400.00 I bought two . Honda the best but the cheap ones are 1/3 the price. My buddy has sailed all over he is living on a mooring ball now and runs AC 24/7 off a harbour freight predator 2000 watt gene.
@@LearningtheLines Buying and keeping a generator reliably running in a marine environment is an extremely complex subject. Speaking from experience, a rarely used, inexpensive gasoline generator is very likely to fail in a marine environment.
Excellent presentation! Question? What constitutes a cycle? If a battery is drawn down to 90% and then recharged is that a cycle? What if there is a constant recharge on a battery as in solar with a controller, how is a cycle then defined? Thanks!
My boat is called Serenity...I want Firefly batteries because...well, it's obvious really. Unfortunately there isn't a distributor in the UK so they are completely unobtainable. Shame.
ive been to a couple of places in the world ... and believe me .. when it comes to the push .. there's just no compromise to quantity ... batteries .. or any other structural dependancy
Absolutely magnificent video. I've moved all of my battery storage over to the team iron phosphate like the battleborns. There simply is no comparison in performance and cycle life. By the way, remember if you're utilizing all that equipment you talking about at the end of the video, you should also have the capability to recharge that battery off grid.
Good video some minor details are bit iffy but nothing major GEL cells to my knowledge are fragile and cannot do fast charge discharge and rarely are found in shops so not a big issue only good for 1/20 C rates or the Gell separates from the plates and get wrecked . GEL cells name is where the shops get mixxed up they often call the AGM battery a GEL cell much like all vacuum cleaners are called Hoovers machines after the inventor Hoover AGM are strong can take lots of abuse and best of lead acid for low maintenance boat users. AGM like all lead acid need to be be charged to full so not to sulfate and work best with DOD of less than 50% but return good cycle life up to 50% DOD. Great solution for smaller boats less than 32 feet where space and weight are a issue and with shore power and good charges can be low maintenance. Lead carbon types are very similar in most respects to AGM but can tolerate 80% DOD better than AGM but cost more again than AGM Golf cart 6V battery require lots of TLC and can return great cycle life in static situations like telephone exchanges or similar but can suffer from pleasure marine use of the intermittent season type and good to 550 cycles at 80% DOD . Expect 1000 plus cycles for less than 50% DOD use with good maintenance and correct charges . great solution for boats bigger than 32 feet where weight and space are less of an issue Recent developments using arc welders and over 200 amps suggest sulfated batteries can be returned to use and extend cycle lifes of flooded lead acid batteries to they claim unlimited life cycle lives but the jury is out on these claims. The method is put 200 amps into dead battery for 5 minutes then rest for ten minutes repeat several times until the battery function's like new. Do so at your own risk Lithium comes in many types and lithium Irion LiFe types have existed for many decades long before other lithium types. They are vvery very difficult to have battery fires and cannot burn easily as they have no oxygen inside them stubbornly They require complex electronic protection that often costs25% to 100% the cost of the battery they protect making them pricy but their costs are dropping rapidly Many other more modern lithium types have oxygen in them like LiPo LiFePO4 and the tesla types from 18650 and other prismatic types. These types are not often found in big marine battery uses but can be found in smaller packs like the epropulsion 1 KW battery outboard pack or laptops and smaller devises. Modern safety systems have reduced the fire risks of these Lithium to often less risk to burn than gasoline fire risks but are very difficult fires to extinguish if they do start to burn . They are difficult to use without complex electronic solutions that complex electronic solution can often cost the same cost as battery pack making them less useful on cost ratio benefits for many pleasure marine uses in this time.The cost are dropping in the battery packs but cost drops in electronic charging solutions are slowwer as battery pack price drops ratio kick in. Most lithuims will suffer drop in cycles if theyare discharged to below DOD 90% and if they are always charged above 90% . Therefore best life cycle charges operate in the 90% charge and users only use 89% charges to get cycle lifes exceeding 3000 and 6000 has not been unhear of before battery has lost 20 of its capasity. The LiPo prismatic types are often only good for 500 cycles . The 18650 cylinder types are often good north of 2000 cycles. LiFE types can exceed 5000 cycles properly used and maintained. Most Latium's cycle life will be greatly improved with low C rate charge discharge so fast charging and high C rate discharging can seriously impact cycle life. The efficiency rates for charge discharge for most lithium's at low C rates tends to be 95% both ways compares well to Lead acid about 70% both ways
I have had a serious concern about Lithium-Ion batteries on boats. In plastic molding (I did that for years) there is a quality control measure called an "impact test". That is data I would have to see before putting any Lithium-Ion battery on board a boat. If that battery case were to fail due to impact or other reason, water might infiltrate the battery. Lithium and water mix with disastrous consequences. I have been legitimately frightened for people that take these batteries on board because of what could be an unextinguishable fire hazard. Have any manufacturers addressed this issue to your knowledge?
I can buy 6v golf cart batteries on sale for $90 at Costco.... it's a sailboat, buy great(more expensive) sails and go sailing. I'm not that interested in a convection or microwave oven or an air conditioner. Btw, Google Tesla car fires, they are almost impossible to be put out. I have friends that are firemen, they run from battery fires!
I have seen videos where people claim to weld with batteries. You can search TH-cam and find a lot of info i'm sure. Stick welding is the process claimed to work well.
If it can power the prop efficiently that is awesome. With the onboard moter it would effective become the Prius of the sea, Tesla if you never need the motor at all. A freaking C on in the house... I am sold. Thank you.
Maybe you could build a sailboat out of LifePO4 batteries? I am a sound guy, and I am trying to figure out how to run a 9kW PA on my boat. Ok, maybe just 6kW. When I am at work on a normal day, I get 3 phase 200A shore power. On worse days it's from some diesel on wheels out back. I just love music, but it takes a lot of power to properly move air in that tingly way. I'm not trying to peel wigs, it's just that I have noisy twin outboards. Between them I can only get 100A, and that's maxed out, ew. So maybe say 75Ax12V=900W dats no bueno. Thinking maybe a good size bank, and a Honda 2200 for leaning on the sound, and charging. I am Victron Energy's newest fanboy. 800Ah would indeed cover everything, but my woofers. I am fascinated by their MultiPlus 3000VA. Anyway, thanks for the great videos! Cheers!!
I really enjoyed your succinct explanation of batteries. I will be buying battle born lithium ion batteries when the time comes to change out my batteries and since I live here in Nevada I will feel better about supporting Nevada instead of China. So now if you could tell me where I could buy battle born lithium ion batteries for the best price I appreciate that.
Great video only thing I would be concerned most about lythium batteries is like on my motorcycle I upgraded to lythium and it would drain dead at 40 below degreas, now I dont know if it is the same for boat batteries but if it is it would be like several times a went to take a ride and time was not on my side I find it would not start and would need to use my charger that is for charging a lythium battery taking it out of the bike and putting it on charge got old fast so I went back to my lead battery for this reason.
That's funny...that's how I'm sizing my system..when I get enough to run this old greyhound welder I've got enough juice..so far I have eight 85 amp hour batteries and I'm still $50 under 1 battleborn...I can run my 1450 watt air fryer for a few minutes here and there but really haven't had enough sun since I got these last two batteries...the welder takes around 15 amps I think unless you get the rod stuck it goes to about 25 lol...I ve got a 24 volts Aims inverter/charger 2000 watts..I think it will run it but I haven't tried it yet...I've got to put a cord on the greyhound...it's so old..lol..you should have enough if the inverter can take the amps..I'd stay with a smaller welding rod or wire...be sure to use a GFCI
Marine batteries are a crucial part of sailing as it is what keeps your boat running. Being educated on everything you need to know about marine batteries can help you take better care of your boat in the future.
Pretty good video IMH. Although an explanation of 'C' rating for those who rely on your channel for info, would be a good idea. Without the understanding of this rating, you really cannot appreciate the power that can be pulled from LiFePO4 batteries. Although 1C is pretty low on the discharge side. A 10 year warranty, that I like and I am going to check Battle Born's site right now.
A little bit of useful information that is on the topic if one considers that charging your batteries is a vital part of the conversation. I'm wanting to gimbal my solar array to where I can build a device to have the array track the sun and maintain the most efficient angle/position at all times. It turns out this is a rather inexpensive and straightforward thing to do that cost very little money. The servo motors will be the most expensive parts, and then only because they have to be suitable for a corrosive marine environment, but even then they're not that bad. One could buy cheap ones and build a sealed environment, but I've never had any long term success with cheap crap. TH-cam to the rescue! The first, best, and the most brilliant solution is so simple and efficient your jealous that you didn't come up with it first, seriously. It uses no power source, and powers itself. The fellow doing the video is using the same method used by NASA for the Parker Solar Probe. It kept the probe it the perfect position for the maximum protection by its heat shield. It uses four small solar panels that power the servos in the proper direction if any of the solar panels see sunlight. th-cam.com/video/wL9PcGu_xrA/w-d-xo.html Next is a similar solution using light or dark, shade or sun, and uses optic resistors instead of small solar panels, but needs a power source. The most exciting thing about this video is that its intention was as a test of what is the best way/angle to position your solar panels, and how much you actually save. th-cam.com/video/_6QIutZfsFs/w-d-xo.html
Great informations! Question: if we switch from lead acid batteries to lithium-ion type, what changes needs to be done regarding the alternators, and smart charging system on a given boat?
1 good lithium battery is almost 1k. I lead acid battery is 90 bucks at Walmart. They normally last a year or 2. How much you want to spend? How often You use Your boat?
Good video. I like your setup. Personally I would still keep a diesel genny on board just in case. Also if you needed more capacity, multiple inverters on separate circuits inside of the boat would be a good thing.
I was looking into Gel batteries. I found out that they require a gel charger. I already have a charging set up on my boat, I'll stick with a hundred dollar deep cycle battery. My last one lasted 8 years!
@@gregorytimmons4777 man y these charger dont work for the GEL cells as those are fragile dont like fast charge rates 1/20 C rates is where they work for gel but those chargers often work good for AThanks Do you have the info what prop is on the Caroute 160 lbs GThanks Do you have the info what prop is on the Caroute 160 lbs M and some types of lithuim
Hey guys, I did see a new welder advertised at Harbor Freight that has good reviews. Does light welding and cost around $125. I’ve never welded but I’m interested in learning...the lines. 😂😂👍👍 Now, go review another boat with Randi...please.
Instead of a electric welder I would look into a gas welder. They make small bottles of gas that would take up less room than a electric welder. The plus side you can use it to cut medal. A welder is some thing you are not going to use very often. A gas welder is some thing you can use for more than just welding. Plus you can use it off the boat on a remote Island.
SHOULDNT BE A PROBLEM welding if you use one of the smaller cheap welders.. i love my chicago 170 you can run it mig with gas or wire fed with out gas .. and we have used it running off of rv banks and no problem with generators either ..
GOOD VIDEO, I was wondering how many hours of motoring you can get with your electric engine with the batteries that you have? I have also noticed that lithium ion batteries in my power tools just quit when discharged below a certain point with no slowing down or loss of power. Does this happen with an electric engine? Not trying to be negative just curious before making a major investment.
Thanks - good information and although the technology (battery tech) is changing so quickly, I'm convinced that Lithium Ion is the way to go. Did you do a battery bank calculation video for Freebie in a previous video?
Not a specific calculation yet, no, but the last technical video we did was a schematic and explanation of our whole system thusfar. Link is in this video description.
Hey man, Very interesting.. I want to see the welding videos on the boat lol the little welder I had back in the day plugged right into a 15 amp shared circuit household outlet and worked perfect lol u should be fine lol
What would be the best choice of marine batteries to power my C-PAP machine while I'm camping for a week? I always shut off my humidifier so it doesn't draw as much energy from the battery.
What you neglected to mention was the recharge source used to replenish your 1000Ah Battleborn lithium bank after you had the 80% power drawdown.You will need a bunch of 150 -180W solar panels if 12V units or nearly a bunch if using 24V connected panels. Let's assume that you configure that lithium bank into a 48V set up & add several high efficiency wind turbines to augment the plethora of PV panels that populate the horizontal surfaces of your sailing platform you still might need a small diesel generator to take up the deficit. It's one thing to be berthed next to a shore power option for battery bank replenishment but quite another to be underway 100 miles out & becalmed having to rely on your batttery bank to run your electric auxillary motor as well as other essentialAC or DC draws on the battery bank. If you are becalmed & its overcast "green" power ain't gonna contribute much. Many folks "dun" my viewpoint but the realistic view is what is the maximum necessary draw that the battery bank can sustain for making headway in inclement conditions when the headsail & main are heavily reefed plus what auxillary draws are present. If you have to draw down 800Ah from the bank how long is it going to take to recharge. You might as well adda Watt & Sea water generator to your mix. You can run many devices off a lithium battery bank but you cannot run many high current draw units concurrently for very long.
I forgot to say you're very good at what you do I watch a lot of your videos and they're very informative and I also watched and very much liked the one about the pilothouse that's what I'm looking for I think that's the most efficient designer is at least you can get in and out of the rain and still pay attention to everything good job folks you and your wife are doing a hell of a job
Great video with very, very good information. I am not a sailor, but I do own a power boat. I'm only passingly conversant when speaking of sailboat matters. But, having said that, and watching your video, I was wondering whether it is feasible to replace a large portion of the keel weight with a large battery bank. I was thinking that perhaps a great deal of the lead in the keel could be replaced with something much lighter and then a large bank of LiFePo4 batteries could be mounted along the top of the keel plate. Would the boat still be stable?
Rick Settle Making the keel lighter and relocating that weight to a position higher in the boat would certainly reduce its stability markedly. The keel uses weight and hydrodynamics to stabilize the vessel. Part of that is accomplished by keeping the boat’s center of gravity lower, in the keel, so that when countered by the wind high in the sails the boat will remain relatively flat....and. Most importantly, upright. I’m sure a clever marine architect could design a compromise however. I’m not sold on electric power solely to be used as propulsion for cruising sailboats. Sometimes cruising requires you to motor for hours, if not a day or two. A hybrid system is feasible.
@@Seawizz203 I'd not mess with the keel but i think some battery weight just atop the keel might be low enough and i don't think a couple hundred pounds directly above the keel will hurt and might even help slightly acting as a minor addition y keel weight.
Welding on solar with batteries do they make a small enough welder? If you could find one that only used what ever your solar output is on a sunny day it could work and save your batteries and would help with small projects or upgrades, I hope it works and will be watching and waiting.
@@LearningtheLines Looking thru the other comments you thought a 110 volt mig would work, OK but don't those also use a gas or am I missing something and if so how available is the gas?
Your question is a non sequitur - it does not matter whence the energy came because you're drawing it from batteries. You cannot run a welder from solar panels because a solar panel is a low power device that works for many hours a day, and a welder is a high power device that works for a few minutes at a time.
@@hermitoldguy6312 What I'm getting at is, Is there a welder that is say 110 volt 30 amp that can equal their solar output so that power used is equal to power in saving their batteries for night time use.
Simple answer yes, the solar panels can supply the welder - *but not directly*. Solar panels generate energy, batteries store energy, and the welder consumes energy. The panels can generate as much as the welder consumes, But Power is the rate (speed) of production or consumption of energy. The solar panels generate it slowly (say 250W = 250 J/s) and the welder consumes it quickly (110V*30A = 3300W = 3300 J/s) - thirteen times faster than the panel can produce it. So, for every 1 minute of welding, you need 13 minutes (in this case) of not-welding to let the panels catch up.
You could’ve mentioned that with lead acid batteries you cannot charge economically the top 20% because the energy it takes to get from 80 to 100% is much higher than it takes to get from 50 to 80 %. So you’re really looking at 30% capacity utility in a lead acid battery. Also, as you mentioned, I would not compare with him Ion 80% to lead acid 80% because lithium ion does not have the 80% limitation. There’s no comparison. And if the upfront cost Is the problem you should go get financing. There is no excuse to use lead acid on a boat.
Nah, lithium is OLD TECH with roots going back to the 70's. Panasonic(?) Is threatening to release solid batteries--no electrolyte--next year. And several large corps are promising new techs that will blow lead and lithium off the market "soon". Which is not to say, if BB is still around to honor those ten year warranties, that'd be nifty. There are still too many varying claims on lithium types.
Agree. My concerns are how fast those batteries will be available to the marine consumer, the safety of said batteries, how easily they will (or won't) integrate into existing systems, and cost. Look at lithium and lead through this lens, and the time it took to get all the issues worked out of lithium.
New Tech is always very expensive. Also, supply always takes a long to to satisfy demand even when cost is high. So, you may not see a reasonable cost of solid state batter for 10 years!
@@Eskay64Since they are first threatening (not guaranteeing) to release an unknown size at an unknown price next year that could mean they'll be taking wholesale orders 14 months from now. And you want exactly what? Don't hold your breath if you need it now.
LEAD Acid Batteries 🔋 r not extremely dangerous. They r used more than any other battery so One would think that shows they r safe as long as installed correctly. I am not trying to disagree with everything that is said here. As the video spokesperson is well educated on the topic. Im just saying the deep cycle lead acid battery works and gets the job done for the majority of people. And will work just fine. Also they are much more affordable up front cost 4 sure.
Good video, but you failed to mention about changing/switching your charging profile to handle lithium batteries. Stock battery charging equipment will not work.
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Time still remains the biggest factor when analyzing costs. Unless you are 100% certain you will be keeping the boat for those 3000 cycles, you will simply be eating those upfront costs when you go to sell the boat as it will be extremely difficult to obtain a premium on your sale price due to the batteries. Good breakdown, thanks.
An especially apropos comment in the context of Freebie having been given away to its next owners for free.
Great comparison. All of this assumes you will own the boat/batteries for the full 5000 cycles. Most people sell their boats after 7 years. Assuming you’d be doing one full cycle per day (that’s a huge power drain for most people unless you’ve dramatically undersized your batter bank) 5000 cycles divided by 365 means it will take 13.7 years to use all the kWh’s available. So really your buying great batteries for the next owner of the boat since you’ll only get half the value from them. Something to consider is how much benefit you get from the investment. Yes, the will add value to the boat. Something I’m not factoring in, but I think I’d rather take the $ saved and upgrade electronics, ground tackle, standing and running rigging, tender, etc.
Lots to think about. 😊
Thanks again guys, great video.
It's interesting how we consider batteries to be a piece of consumable disposable equipment. Just because lead acid batteries are that way doesn't mean all batteries are that way. Lithium batteries can be considered to be a permanent piece of equipment like standing rigging ground tackle electronics and every other piece of equipment on a boat. 5000 Cycles is 20 to 40 years for most people and is longer than your sails your rigging even your motor may last!
I would think that a lithium ion Bank of batteries in a boat would increase its value by a bit.personally, if I could not get the value of the batteries in the sale of the boat, the batteries would go with me to my next boat.
@@richardnwilson Exactly and your electronics, navigation, and other hardware will be obsolete and replaced two, or three times before the batteries need replacing. Hell, they could outlast the boat depending on the vessel and how life, in general, can be over that many years.
@@jeffwood8109 I was thinking the same thing, but if I were shopping for a boat to make into a hybrid, and came across one with the significant purchase already included in the boat with a good part of their usable life left, hell yeah I'd pay a fair price for it in a heartbeat. I'd have to think long and hard about selling a boat with my LifePO batteries, and unless I got my price, I would buy some cheap AGM's and keep my LifePO for the new boat, or home and maybe a hunting camp solar power setup.
Plus IMO the boat has been devalued by removing the diesel engine. Going green is great but i hate to think about you guys stuck somewhere in a storm with depleted batteries and no longer with the diesel option to go to.
Thank you for a very good video on batteries and especially mentioning the fact that fast charging is bad for batteries ! I also liked the fact that you mentioned the price per kilowatt hour as well which provides a much more meaningful context for letting users understand the true value of the batteries for cost vs life. Also for performance catamarans battery weight will also affect performance when a dozen batteries are installed, so there is a sailing penalty as well. Welding is crazy since the current draw against the internal battery resistance (and yes all batteries have some) will cause internal excessive heating and may reduce life and/or possibly be a safety hazard. Not worth it !! Do all you welding at the docks unless an emergency situation.
I have had good luck with 6 volt golf cart batteries. My previous sailboat was a Gozzard 36 I replaced the house bank with 6 golf cart batteries to make 3 big 12 volts when wired in series/parallel had 645 amp hours off that house bank. I paid $500 for the 6 batteries back in 2010. My Dad also did his 34 foot sailboat with me at the time with the same system 9 years on his Sam Club golf cart batteries are still in his boat today and still working. I think its best to keep it simple on a cruising sailboat especially if you plan to cruise the tropics Latin America ect. Good luck with hi tech batteries in third world countries if you encounter a problem golf cart batteries can be bought cheap all over the World. for the same amp hour house bank as golf cart expect to pay 10 times the price or more in Lithium. A 12 volt 200ah lithium deep cycle battery is around 2500.00 bucks.
I agree with you 110% ! IMHO, golf cart batteries are by far the "best bang for the buck" in the lead acid family ! A pair (you always need a pair because they are only 6V) will have over 200 Ah of capacity and if you shop around, in the US, you can find them for about $90 a piece (flooded, AGM golf cart batteries are much moire expensive).
The other thing not mentioned is that golf cart batteries are TRUE deep discharge. They are designed to be discharged to 50% SOC while most (all?) dual-purpose "marine" batteries really should not be discharged more than about 80% for maximum life.
Golf cart batteries are often used in stationary solar installations until the person can afford to move up to solar or LiFePO4 batteries.
I think the "jury is still out" on LiFePO4 battery life. Time will tell.
I agree, that's always the main question I ask myself. The price for LiFePO4 is horrible. Nobody knows how long they last in reality. I remember the same promises on AGM and I remember the first AGM lasted for 1 year only. The manufacturer said, the batteries where not made for boat use and get probs with vibration. So my first question is, how many years of experience do they have in reality. The next question is, when I discharge all batteries down to 50% only, where is the advantage then. Its true (or isn't it) when I use a 400AH batterie bank in lead acid I could use 200 AH in LiFePO4. What I have seen is all people uses the sam capacity of the batterie. "Only" 200 AH would cost 2000 Bucks In Europe about 3000 Euros. 400AH Lead Acid would cost max 500 to 600 Euros. My bank lasted for 10 years - permanent solar and wind power charged.
Fair winds
Tom
@@wanambi8553 I been playing golf my whole life as well and worked in golf cart barns when I was younger. If 6 golf cart batteries can power a golf cart with two 230 pound men for 8 hours over 36 holes of Golf and be drained down to ZERO. And recharged time and time again. They are good enough for most RVs and or most Sailboats. Sure if your racing a sailboat around the World of if your going to the North Pole on your sailboat you may need to look into other options.
My old Gozzard had the Original Westerbeke 46 diesel. It hated to start in temps below 50 F. I had two group 31 for the starting batteries it was not enough to start my engine in January cold days in Florida. I would switch to my house bank to fire up the Westerbeke without the group 31 bank. And BANG that golf cart bank had alot of power would fire the old Westerbeke 46 right up.
@Jack Patteeuw - You really need to watch what all is 'labeled' as Deep Discharge. Not all of them truely are such. Many are simply repackaged basic batteries. Sadly as pointed in this video, there is very lil actual data and details on many of these, such as actual cycle life and even if it does per what actual rate DoD. Or even the recommended DoD to begin with. Are some hints to look for, if it claims to charge quickly (like in an hour) ... that is NOT a Deep Discharge battery. If it has high CCA, its unlikely a deep discharge. Also while most Deep Discharge such as G31 golf cart can be run down to 50% DoD, that may or may not be the best cycle life for them. I have heard some experts hint that Trojans for example are better and will last much longer at more like 70% DoD. But this is all info and details that most batteries simply do not provide, even when they really are true Deep Discharge. The sad part is true Deep Discharge if taken down to 50% DoD, will likely require a good 5 to 7 hrs to recharge. Not many cruisers fully recharge them back up to full. USAGE is a key that unfortunately Jordan left out of this video.
And uhm at only over 200 aH, you are either not cruiser or using very little power. While many are around I am sure, todays more tech world, that is less likely every day.
LifePO4 have been going strong since mid 2000's in Off-grid, RV, and marine cruisers applications for over a decade now. How much time is needed to tell?
When I started messing around with Solar back in the late 90s I built a battery generator and I ran a small 110V Lincoln welder for about 45 mins to 50 mins and that was lead acid batteries. What's going to hold you up on lithium batteries is your duty cycle on your welder and the inverter. Watch your boat tours quite often appreciate it teachers me things looking forward to seeing your boat on the water..
Thanks for the shoutout Jordan! We are still very happy with our battery choice. If we had the money, we'd have Battleborn as well, maybe on the next boat :)
I purchased a BattleBorn BB10012 and it’s awesome.
I use it for 10hrs a day powering my 12V minnkota 50lb thrust trolling motor, and when I check it at the end of the day it is still 70% charged.
I just bought a used bass boat that will need a starting and trolling battery soon. This was extremely helpful! Thanks for the great video.
Excellent discussion :-) I recently had an argument in favor of Lithium Ion Batteries... The negative side suggested that they were prone to catching fire... I said, "Show me proof". the party shut up... Samsung had trouble with their Cellular Phones catching fire, but corrected the problem. Their BMS was faulty... End of story. However, the notion that all LI batteries are prone to the same issues is long dead. Having said that, one must make sure their BMS is up to the task... Cheap ones from China are notorious for being faulty, if they even work... You get what you pay for... Nuf said...
Electrician here, the weak point on all lithium batteries is the bms system , you are correct when you sah not to buy cheap generic lithium batteries, the bms system on most of these leave a lot to be desired. I personally still use trojan 6v batteries , its old tech which is actually a good thing on a cruising yacht , i maintain the batteties fortnightly and usually get 7 years out of them .. lithium batteries by thier nature are a suseptable to thermal runaway ,lithium chemistry mentioned in this video is the most stable, but care still needs to be taken , anothdr piont worth mentioning is the high discharge rate can cause really high fault currents , whereas a lead acid battery due to its internal resistance limits fault current to give time for a fuse of cb to trip ( most cbs and fuses are thermal and take time to trip by the time a fuse trips on a lithium battery sometimes current rise is so quick and high a fire can result.. also lithium batteries do gas out if overtemped, the will produce floride gas not sure on the quantity but floride gas can be very dangerous in sufficient quantities
You can weld from battery power. I've done it, with lead acid batteries. There are several wire feed welders that use very little wattage.
Lead acid also cope with massive discharge better than lithium or AGM which is why they make better crank batteries and you can weld directly off them.
Just finally saw this. What a great overview and summary of battery technologies! I just went electric myself, trading my 5HP Honda for an 82lb thrust 24V trolling motor and 2 X 12V deep cycle wet marine batteries for my 20' Farrier Super Tramp trimaran. I didn't get to pick my batteries in the trade, but I am sure this setup will work fine for my little boat on a small lake. Good job!
The big issue with all of the appliances you mentioned is the INVERTER ! Obviously you want a pure-sine-wave inverter. There are some DC* refrigerators and even DC* air conditioner (heavy duty, long haul trucks). These are expensive. If you stay with conventional AC powered refrigerators and air conditioners I recommend you add a "soft start" circuit to each.
If you have a big enough inverter, you could probably run a 120V welder, but those have very little power so you would be limited to thin metal.
I put an asterisk (*) above on those appliances because "technically" the motor is not a DC motor. Yes, you hook the appliance directly to DC (battery) power, but inside each of those devices is a small DC to 3 phase AC inverter. The inverter and motor are perfectly/optimally matched. Yes, I am a techno-geek, picking nits.
Thanks for the video since I am comparing Firefly & Lithium right now. I thought the cost comparison between these 2 batteries are NOT just the cost of the batteries but also the potential ancillary equipment surrounding the battery such as chargers, regulators. One might only look at the battery cost if you are installing a new house bank and need to do wiring and buying all other equipments from new. However, most boats are doing "UPGRADE" so if one factor into chargers, regulators, alternators, other BMS, etc, the cost can add up. I am not being critical but want to validate my thought process since I am going through the Firefly vs Lithium exercise.
I have a pretty substantial system in my boat. 3 Jl audio HD 600/4's and a HD 750/1. AGM batteries WITHOUT A DOUBT last MUCH longer than regular lead acid! I use to replace batteries ever damn year. Good Agms have lasted me 3 to 4 years. You Gotta do the whole thing right though... Battery fet isolator, and a good high output alternator is a must as well. 220 amp does me right
Great comparison Jordan. Even if you are not on a boat the LiFePh batteries would be the better choice for an off grid home. If you can't afford a full compliment for the bank, get what you can and then add until you get there. Take care and have a good weekend.
This is a fantastic comparison. Thanks for the technical support of your assertions. I think it has swayed me towards the LIFEPO option.
Excellant comparison of batteries you gave. Really informative. In SA no lithium batteries available. If it is it's just too expensive.
You clearly did not go and rob the local cell network lithuim batteries that get stolen by the millions every day in SA. Its cheap as chips lithuim paradise in the townships
The batteries I used in my old Fuji 40 which I took to Mexico for a year was Trojan 6V Gulfcart flooded. I used four of them for about 540 amp hrs. My two 130 watt solar panels kept them topped off nicely. But being in a hot climate they seemd to use water faster than normal and I did have the water saver caps on them. For a starting battery for my motor I used two goup 31 agm batteries as I wanted to make sure that motor cranked over. In my last boat my CT 47 CC Cutter I had the Lithium Ion Gen. 1 batteries, they held a charge great but were so dang sensitive to overvoltage, they actually were the cause of a bad overvoltage that ended up making my whole charging system on my main to melt down. After replaceing all the wires, chargers, regulators, fuses, and batteries everything was fine. And no I did not go back to the Lithium Ion, went to a AGM.
So you didn't understand the voltage requirements of the batteries you had? So instead of blaming yourself for the fail, you blame the batteries? So can you explain what a gen 1 lithium ion battery is?
You can weld with 2 batteries and car jumpstart cable. Hook the bateries in series (24V) and use your favorite stick rod.
agreed big tractor truck battery or big lithuim
Thanks for the information, you obviously spent time researching this. The part often omitted from the cost analysis is the supporting hardware, for example Lithium charge controllers vs standard lead acid ones. Also I have heard of requirements to upgrade alternators because of the higher acceptance rates and the extended high charging loads. It would be interesting to see someone do this kind of analysis to give a fuller picture.
Great comparison, Gone with the Wynns also did one with a great visual component in theirs as I plan to keep my boat for a long time I will pay the upfront costs and go with Ion.
I've used batteries for emergency welding on dune buggys for decades. Yeah it's gonna suck them down fast but it's always gotten me back to town.
Great job on the video. Please add any information on the difference in temperature versus life.
I’m a firm believer of you get what you pay for. Also a 110 volt mig welder, you should have no problem
I agree, I think I'd be fine as long as it's not a 220v unit.
I run a 240v 180amp inverter mig at half power on a 3kw inverter generator which will weld 4mm steel easily. So I imagine a 3kw inverter should work ok, it will be interesting to see if the lipos will cope with a 300 to 400amp load if they do I'm investing in some new batteries
What most people don't know about welders is that the out voltage is fairly low, but the current is very high ! Many people have stick welded with two 12V batteries in series (24V). Some smart person some day will make a good MIG welder (>150A) that will run directly off of 24/48VDC ! Good MIG weld does require a shield gas. The flux core wire just does not cut it.
Your analysis works for liveaboards who are big consumers of electricity. For the majority of the week-end sailors or for a 2 week vacation on the water, your conclusion is misleading. You have an electric motor and you need a lot of capacity. You have a large solar panel to keep your batteries charged and Lithium is a better solution as it charges quickly. Most boaters have a Diesel engine which charges the batteries while they get in and out of the harbor on a day sail. The solar panel takes over the rest of the day. Before buying a battery, ask yourself "what kind of sailing do I do"?. Cheers, Richard
Actually the analysis works for anyone. Lithium is cheaper per kilowatt-hour than lead acid no matter how much or how little you use. The one exception would be if you didn't think you would keep your boat long enough to utilize the full life expectancy of the battery.
@@richardnwilson It is a question of consumption. If you go out for a week-end and you do not have a frig., you need very little electrical energy. Half the capacity of a lead acid battery would be fine. Then you have the rest of the week (while you work...) to get the battery recharged with a small solar panel. It all depends on your needs and liveaboard style.
The analysis does NOT work for everyone, as kW/H will vary depending upon DoD (and ofc price). At 50% of DoD the Firefly Oasis will be cheaper. At only 20% DoD and a decent golf cart battery will be cheaper kW/H. Can get some of those for lil over $100, or pay double that and can find some with 1500 cycles, which means that will work out cheaper.
50% DoD = Firefly Oasis $0.20 kW/H vs Battleborn LifePO4 $0.52 kW/H
20% DoD = G31 1500 cycles $0.49 kW/H vs Firefly Oasis $0.51 kW/H vs Battleborn LifePO4 $1.12 kW/H
Randy is adorable but we love you too. Thanks for the Frank and informative discussion on a very important subject. Hugs from Canada
Gratitude Jordan 4 sharing the interest !!
Very smart research I appreciate the information !!
Love seeing the old diesel come out and electric going in it'll really pay for itself in the long run I believe .
As long as you're producing the kilowatt hours to keep up with what ever even the welding why even hesitate ?
I've worked a few construction sites in the past that were 100% solar with battery Bank Electric .
Seem to have no problem keeping up with air compressors saws ................ everybody charge their batteries and there were three crews of subcontractors out there each with a minimum of three guys one crew had five . the couple building the house also their own general contractor we're already living there and had two refrigerators to freezers and I don't know what else running while everybody else was working nobody seemed to have a problem . I was truly impressed they had solar with the windmill backup .
They said if the sun's not shining the windows usually blowing . they also mentioned the system cost them a little over 45,000 .
please don't hesitate to keep us updated with new information .
maintenance and upkeep as time goes along .
great video thank you !!!
you and Randy are an excellent team never feel sorry for taking a break we all need that and it would be interesting to see if Randy does a video while you're taking a break and I'm sure you're both invested in editing and putting together most all the videos . hey it's your Channel please share all the interest you like to share the more we know the further we all go and we all should be sharing information .
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍❣
HHBpHhelps
Very informative. Thank you for posting this information. I am planning an electric motor conversion in a the next few years and will definitely be converting to Li-Ion batteries!
It all come down to what you want to weld (yard art vs. something structurally) how thick and what type of material . Steel and stainless are pretty straight forward. Aluminum is a whole other story! Welding manufactures say the smaller machines will do aluminum but only with in a narrow window ( i worked for Lincoln Electric for my career). Most people buy a small machine and over time push the envelope of what they try to weld. This is when things go bad. Stick with a major manufacturer and stay within the machines capabilities and learn the right way to weld.
KUDOS to you Jordan! Great explanation and maybe even the best one I've seen in the last two years. I watch 100 sailing channels and have seen this subject spoken about often. I also think a lot of people don't realize how much effort goes into a factual video like this. WELL DONE! PEACE OUT! Ü ps, I didn't miss Randy one bit! HA HA!
Great video, good info. I have found that if the batteries (AGM specifically) are on a smart trickle charger when not being used, they last an incredible long time. Assuming you do not completely discharge them when using or, boat is sitting with no means to charge. They usually last much longer then what you would expect. I just replaced the house batteries in my boat. They were Group 29 AGM's from 2010 and 2011. They were used to power up my Navionics, autohelm , radio, etc. when I sailed. I also alternated the batteries to start my diesel engine. I believe my "cost" experience is less than what you shared. I do not have solar or wind generated power and my boat is either on my mooring in one location for half the New England season (with no power to charge) and on my slip with shore power for the other half of the season. The Lithium ion batteries sound great. Just still pretty expensive for me.
Yes. I have gone to AGM motorcycle batteries in each of my bikes and the deep cycle in my sailboat i just bought is one also i believe and i will likely just add another of those deep cycles. I think there is the deep cycle and also one lead acid and from what i understand that should come out. The outboard is pull start only so i don't need a battery for a starter motor but i read that you shouldn't mix the two types. Yet he kind of groups gel and AGM in with lead acid here. At least in some respects.
Yes you can I've already done it Harbor Freight offers up small welder AC arc welder with Tig it's a 110 unit I have one it works great you pick it up for $375 and I put it on a 12000 Watt inverter I have which is overkill you don't need that much for it but if I could do it here you can do it there
Have you ever considered make some of you videos available as a podcast, I drive around a lot and could get quite a lot out of then even if I only had audio , cheers warren
I will stick with traction batteries , im an electrician and iwork with all battety chemistry's daily , i disagree with your assertion that wet cell batteries are not recommended , for a cruising monohull with a diesel auxiliary they would be my top choice due to simplicity , reliability and safety. . Lithium offers great depth of discharge and weight savings , its impossible to give a average service/cycle life yet. Ive found tne bms fails long before the service life is reached
Which is why the warranty for 10 years is a really good thing.
@@bluejeans725 I guess time will tell. Personally if I faced a situation where a company that was supposed to honor the warranty was no longer there, I would feel free to open up the battery either try to repair the BMS, or or use the internal lithium ion cells and create my own.
@@bluejeans725 well yes if it was near the end of life then you're right. But let's say it fails 5 years in and the warranty can't be honored. Then it might be worthwhile buying one of those BMS off of eBay and making it work.
@@jeffwood8109 Imho it is a better proposition not to buy an overpriced internally regulated mis-nomer drop in battery containing hundreds of no name cells that is covered in marketing promises. I wrote a message elsewhere on this video where I detail why.
@@bluejeans725and if that's the choice you make then you are welcome to it. Certainly no one on TH-cam has the power to force you to use something you don't want. So I'll just stick to my inefficient and less educated ways, and get the job done, while you sit around and wait for perfection apparently. You have a nice day 😘
Hi the overall best batteries are 2volt cells wet forklift batteries, 48volts 56kw pack will last 8 years even if you run them every you can run them down 80% as well in uk the cost is £4.500 pounds GB.they power my 6 ton 32ft motor cruiser all day,cheers adrian uk
Good info. Here is the way I see it. I buy Trojan T-105's for $120. 6V 225 AH each. With 4 I have 450 AH for $480. Granted I can only go to 50% SOC and have to add water occasionally and will have to replace every 4-5 years, but with LED lights, LED TV, etc they do fine running 43 ft. boat including refrig. Also handle the 2,500 watt inverter running microwave, etc. With L ION I need 4 to get to 400 AH. That's $3,800. Granted can discharge further, longer life, etc but I can buy 8 sets of Trojans for roughly the same amount of money. Before I pay for the L ION's I will purchase 6 Lifeline 2V 1,200 AH for $650 each, total of $3,800, giving me 1,220 AH at 12v. This will allow me to run my 16,000 BTU AC all night without the generator. If I built that system with L ION it would take 12 batts costing $11,400. I am sure there are arguments against this as well as technical difference and considerations I haven't taken into account but I know the Lifeline system works and so does the Trojan scenario without the AC. My point is L ION is still to expensive.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about
@@OH8STN It's currently working on my boat so although you may think I have no idea and perhaps I don't but the proof is in the pudding, it works.
@@OH8STN It's working on m boat. I may not know what I'm talking about but the proof is in the pudding.
Thanks for doing all of the research. I am using this information on my travel trailers. Keep up the good work.
Great video and just in time our house batteries need replaced. Thank you
Great comparison! I was surprised that only the li-polymer-phosphate batteries are "approved" for marine use. In the country we keep our boat, noone cares what battery I use... I just bought a few hundred of used laptop batteries and finished charging the 18650s..:)
I had a light welder I ran from my work truck for years, ran off of an inverter, and it came in handy many a time. Great video, and just so happens I've been researching batteries. I figure that maybe putting one or two of my kids on the market might get enough for a couple of Battleborn batteries, but one way or the other. I'm joking, of course. I lucked out on a 20KW 48V DC motor for $900; there's an interesting story behind how that happened too. That being said, I'll need somewhere between $12,000 and $16,000 worth of batteries, and I'm going to be contacting Battleborn about some kind of a discount on that kind of volume; hell, I'll sing their praise and put a sticker on the boat. I'm looking at keeping the diesel as an emergency auxiliary drive, and also, it will be running a 48V generator when needed. I'm looking at 450W of solar, already have 300W.
Along with wind and current, I should rarely need the diesel, but I plan to do the Atlantic one more time before my ashes are cast into the sea, and I'm not ready to do it on batteries alone. I've done it once many moons ago as a young man with an old friend on his 35-foot Pilothouse sloop. I'd be lying if I said it didn't scare the shit out of us once a 1000 miles out, but we made it, and the trip back was much better because we not only knew what to expect, but also what to take. Though I admire what you and Randy are doing, off the grid on renewables alone, would you sail from Barbados to the Cape Verde Islands? What concerns me is that for days there would be no wind to speak of, then we went days and days with inclement weather, storm jib out and two reefs in the main; your solar is worthless, and without power and propulsion you're adrift, and that's not good.
I also want to add A/C, washer Dryer, and watermaker, and as you know, they are current and wattage hog. But you don't have to run the watermaker all the time, and the washer/dryer very seldom. The A/C, depending on the BTU, you run when you need it like at night. Now on a 35 to 38-foot boat, I'm going to make do with a 5000 BTU. If one insulates well it should be fine, I don't want to hang meat.
My bad it should have been a 110V generator instead of a 48 volt. I had 48 volts on the brain, I guess.
I got 2 lithium valence batteries and got screwed, they were ok for half a season until we went on a trip 2 weeks in the frig ran them down beyond recovery,I was told by the eBay seller that they had a controller that would prevent this. I spoke to valence who said they DO NOT HAVE A CONTROLLER, you need to have an independent battery monitor ! in order to know what is happening with them. if you go lithium buy a battery that has tech support
Great plan on the battery system. Id figure the minimum power requirements and get a backup generator just in case. It might not run for years but if something kills your battery system in the middle of the night in the middle of the ocean you might be glad you have it. Take care.
Having a Genny as a backup is certainly not a bad idea.
Oh it's the best idea. A small Genny and a battery charger could really save ur ass
Ya I just bought a sabre 34 with out Solar. It has 3 new agm 12 volts, so I got a 2000watt generator and plug it right into the shore power at anchor and can run the whole boat and charge the batteries. Can get knock off Honda Generators for under $400.00 I bought two . Honda the best but the cheap ones are 1/3 the price. My buddy has sailed all over he is living on a mooring ball now and runs AC 24/7 off a harbour freight predator 2000 watt gene.
@@LearningtheLines Buying and keeping a generator reliably running in a marine environment is an extremely complex subject. Speaking from experience, a rarely used, inexpensive gasoline generator is very likely to fail in a marine environment.
Excellent presentation! Question? What constitutes a cycle? If a battery is drawn down to 90% and then recharged is that a cycle? What if there is a constant recharge on a battery as in solar with a controller, how is a cycle then defined?
Thanks!
My boat is called Serenity...I want Firefly batteries because...well, it's obvious really. Unfortunately there isn't a distributor in the UK so they are completely unobtainable. Shame.
Aiming to misbehave are we? No power in the 'verse can stop a determined Browncoat...
@@jeffwood8109 Goram right ;)
@@verynearlyaboutsailing8114 Shiny!
ive been to a couple of places in the world ... and believe me .. when it comes to the push .. there's just no compromise to quantity ... batteries .. or any other structural dependancy
Cool Video, Lots of great info and good detail. You packed a great deal of info into 15 min
Absolutely magnificent video.
I've moved all of my battery storage over to the team iron phosphate like the battleborns. There simply is no comparison in performance and cycle life.
By the way, remember if you're utilizing all that equipment you talking about at the end of the video, you should also have the capability to recharge that battery off grid.
Good video some minor details are bit iffy but nothing major
GEL cells to my knowledge are fragile and cannot do fast charge discharge and rarely are found in shops so not a big issue only good for 1/20 C rates or the Gell separates from the plates and get wrecked .
GEL cells name is where the shops get mixxed up they often call the AGM battery a GEL cell much like all vacuum cleaners are called Hoovers machines after the inventor Hoover
AGM are strong can take lots of abuse and best of lead acid for low maintenance boat users.
AGM like all lead acid need to be be charged to full so not to sulfate and work best with DOD of less than 50% but return good cycle life up to 50% DOD.
Great solution for smaller boats less than 32 feet where space and weight are a issue and with shore power and good charges can be low maintenance.
Lead carbon types are very similar in most respects to AGM but can tolerate 80% DOD better than AGM but cost more again than AGM
Golf cart 6V battery require lots of TLC and can return great cycle life in static situations like telephone exchanges or similar but can suffer from pleasure marine use of the intermittent season type and good to 550 cycles at 80% DOD . Expect 1000 plus cycles for less than 50% DOD use with good maintenance and correct charges . great solution for boats bigger than 32 feet where weight and space are less of an issue
Recent developments using arc welders and over 200 amps suggest sulfated batteries can be returned to use and extend cycle lifes of flooded lead acid batteries to they claim unlimited life cycle lives but the jury is out on these claims. The method is put 200 amps into dead battery for 5 minutes then rest for ten minutes repeat several times until the battery function's like new. Do so at your own risk
Lithium comes in many types and lithium Irion LiFe types have existed for many decades long before other lithium types.
They are vvery very difficult to have battery fires and cannot burn easily as they have no oxygen inside them
stubbornly
They require complex electronic protection that often costs25% to 100% the cost of the battery they protect making them pricy but their costs are dropping rapidly
Many other more modern lithium types have oxygen in them like LiPo LiFePO4 and the tesla types from 18650 and other prismatic types. These types are not often found in big marine battery uses but can be found in smaller packs like the epropulsion 1 KW battery outboard pack or laptops and smaller devises.
Modern safety systems have reduced the fire risks of these Lithium to often less risk to burn than gasoline fire risks but are very difficult fires to extinguish if they do start to burn .
They are difficult to use without complex electronic solutions that complex electronic solution can often cost the same cost as battery pack making them less useful on cost ratio benefits for many pleasure marine uses in this time.The cost are dropping in the battery packs but cost drops in electronic charging solutions are slowwer as battery pack price drops ratio kick in.
Most lithuims will suffer drop in cycles if theyare discharged to below DOD 90% and if they are always charged above 90% . Therefore best life cycle charges operate in the 90% charge and users only use 89% charges to get cycle lifes exceeding 3000 and 6000 has not been unhear of before battery has lost 20 of its capasity.
The LiPo prismatic types are often only good for 500 cycles .
The 18650 cylinder types are often good north of 2000 cycles.
LiFE types can exceed 5000 cycles properly used and maintained.
Most Latium's cycle life will be greatly improved with low C rate charge discharge so fast charging and high C rate discharging can seriously impact cycle life.
The efficiency rates for charge discharge for most lithium's at low C rates tends to be 95% both ways compares well to Lead acid about 70% both ways
I have had a serious concern about Lithium-Ion batteries on boats. In plastic molding (I did that for years) there is a quality control measure called an "impact test". That is data I would have to see before putting any Lithium-Ion battery on board a boat. If that battery case were to fail due to impact or other reason, water might infiltrate the battery. Lithium and water mix with disastrous consequences. I have been legitimately frightened for people that take these batteries on board because of what could be an unextinguishable fire hazard. Have any manufacturers addressed this issue to your knowledge?
There're several different lithium chemistries. Some are quite burn-y, the lithium phosphate ones are considered safe.
@@hermitoldguy6312 considered safer than the other chemistry lithium batteries. But I woildnt consider them safe...
Well, alright. Your mileage may vary, contents may settle, objects may appear larger, I am not a plumber, caveat emptor, etc.
I can buy 6v golf cart batteries on sale for $90 at Costco.... it's a sailboat, buy great(more expensive) sails and go sailing. I'm not that interested in a convection or microwave oven or an air conditioner. Btw, Google Tesla car fires, they are almost impossible to be put out. I have friends that are firemen, they run from battery fires!
I have seen videos where people claim to weld with batteries. You can search TH-cam and find a lot of info i'm sure. Stick welding is the process claimed to work well.
If it can power the prop efficiently that is awesome. With the onboard moter it would effective become the Prius of the sea, Tesla if you never need the motor at all. A freaking C on in the house... I am sold. Thank you.
Very informative and well presented! It would be great to see an episode about the solar array, charge controller and how you tied it all in.
Maybe you could build a sailboat out of LifePO4 batteries? I am a sound guy, and I am trying to figure out how to run a 9kW PA on my boat. Ok, maybe just 6kW. When I am at work on a normal day, I get 3 phase 200A shore power. On worse days it's from some diesel on wheels out back. I just love music, but it takes a lot of power to properly move air in that tingly way. I'm not trying to peel wigs, it's just that I have noisy twin outboards. Between them I can only get 100A, and that's maxed out, ew. So maybe say 75Ax12V=900W dats no bueno. Thinking maybe a good size bank, and a Honda 2200 for leaning on the sound, and charging. I am Victron Energy's newest fanboy. 800Ah would indeed cover everything, but my woofers. I am fascinated by their MultiPlus 3000VA. Anyway, thanks for the great videos! Cheers!!
Just the analysis I've been looking for! Well done, and thanks!
Ryan and Sophie told the same a year ago. th-cam.com/channels/eB8v6Yo60cTcmRUilSVZhA.html
I really enjoyed your succinct explanation of batteries. I will be buying battle born lithium ion batteries when the time comes to change out my batteries and since I live here in Nevada I will feel better about supporting Nevada instead of China. So now if you could tell me where I could buy battle born lithium ion batteries for the best price I appreciate that.
Great video only thing I would be concerned most about lythium batteries is like on my motorcycle I upgraded to lythium and it would drain dead at 40 below degreas, now I dont know if it is the same for boat batteries but if it is it would be like several times a went to take a ride and time was not on my side I find it would not start and would need to use my charger that is for charging a lythium battery taking it out of the bike and putting it on charge got old fast so I went back to my lead battery for this reason.
Wow! Technical while still understandable and very informative. Nice job!
Great explanation, Cheers from Jacksonville Florida 🌞
That's funny...that's how I'm sizing my system..when I get enough to run this old greyhound welder I've got enough juice..so far I have eight 85 amp hour batteries and I'm still $50 under 1 battleborn...I can run my 1450 watt air fryer for a few minutes here and there but really haven't had enough sun since I got these last two batteries...the welder takes around 15 amps I think unless you get the rod stuck it goes to about 25 lol...I ve got a 24 volts Aims inverter/charger 2000 watts..I think it will run it but I haven't tried it yet...I've got to put a cord on the greyhound...it's so old..lol..you should have enough if the inverter can take the amps..I'd stay with a smaller welding rod or wire...be sure to use a GFCI
Marine batteries are a crucial part of sailing as it is what keeps your boat running. Being educated on everything you need to know about marine batteries can help you take better care of your boat in the future.
Pretty good video IMH. Although an explanation of 'C' rating for those who rely on your channel for info, would be a good idea. Without the understanding of this rating, you really cannot appreciate the power that can be pulled from LiFePO4 batteries. Although 1C is pretty low on the discharge side. A 10 year warranty, that I like and I am going to check Battle Born's site right now.
A little bit of useful information that is on the topic if one considers that charging your batteries is a vital part of the conversation. I'm wanting to gimbal my solar array to where I can build a device to have the array track the sun and maintain the most efficient angle/position at all times. It turns out this is a rather inexpensive and straightforward thing to do that cost very little money. The servo motors will be the most expensive parts, and then only because they have to be suitable for a corrosive marine environment, but even then they're not that bad. One could buy cheap ones and build a sealed environment, but I've never had any long term success with cheap crap.
TH-cam to the rescue!
The first, best, and the most brilliant solution is so simple and efficient your jealous that you didn't come up with it first, seriously. It uses no power source, and powers itself. The fellow doing the video is using the same method used by NASA for the Parker Solar Probe. It kept the probe it the perfect position for the maximum protection by its heat shield. It uses four small solar panels that power the servos in the proper direction if any of the solar panels see sunlight.
th-cam.com/video/wL9PcGu_xrA/w-d-xo.html
Next is a similar solution using light or dark, shade or sun, and uses optic resistors instead of small solar panels, but needs a power source. The most exciting thing about this video is that its intention was as a test of what is the best way/angle to position your solar panels, and how much you actually save.
th-cam.com/video/_6QIutZfsFs/w-d-xo.html
Good layout of the options in a short video.
I reference this episode often.
Great informations! Question: if we switch from lead acid batteries to lithium-ion type, what changes needs to be done regarding the alternators, and smart charging system on a given boat?
Excellent information !! Loved the video.
1 good lithium battery is almost 1k. I lead acid battery is 90 bucks at Walmart. They normally last a year or 2. How much you want to spend? How often You use Your boat?
Good video. I like your setup. Personally I would still keep a diesel genny on board just in case. Also if you needed more capacity, multiple inverters on separate circuits inside of the boat would be a good thing.
Would a small honda generator and a 5 gallon can of gas be a better option for an emergency? Diesel genny's are expensive.
@@raivkka4313 I suppose, but gasoline does go bad after a while. I think diesel lives forever.
I was looking into Gel batteries. I found out that they require a gel charger. I already have a charging set up on my boat, I'll stick with a hundred dollar deep cycle battery. My last one lasted 8 years!
Yeah, i bought a little portable charger recently and i made sure i got one approved for AGM, gell and i think it is approved for lithium ion too.
@@gregorytimmons4777 man
y these charger dont work for the GEL cells as those are fragile dont like fast charge rates
1/20 C rates is where they work for gel but those chargers often work good for AThanks Do you have the info what prop is on the Caroute 160 lbs GThanks Do you have the info what prop is on the Caroute 160 lbs M and some types of lithuim
I know this is quite late but thank you for that information! I found it quite interesting.
Excellent, thanks for the super valuable info.
Hey guys, I did see a new welder advertised at Harbor Freight that has good reviews. Does light welding and cost around $125. I’ve never welded but I’m interested in learning...the lines. 😂😂👍👍 Now, go review another boat with Randi...please.
Will do! Lol
AGM is the best selling battery type. You rate them by the amp hours.
Isnt Lithum-ion dangerous in water? I heard the catch fire or explode. And you normally keep these below deck.
Instead of a electric welder I would look into a gas welder. They make small bottles of gas that would take up less room than a electric welder. The plus side you can use it to cut medal. A welder is some thing you are not going to use very often. A gas welder is some thing you can use for more than just welding. Plus you can use it off the boat on a remote Island.
Ok, but in the meantime that Westerbeke you discarded would have likely been reliably running along. Think of that cost savings!
SHOULDNT BE A PROBLEM welding if you use one of the smaller cheap welders.. i love my chicago 170 you can run it mig with gas or wire fed with out gas .. and we have used it running off of rv banks and no problem with generators either ..
Nice overview, thanks!
GOOD VIDEO, I was wondering how many hours of motoring you can get with your electric engine with the batteries that you have? I have also noticed that lithium ion batteries in my power tools just quit when discharged below a certain point with no slowing down or loss of power. Does this happen with an electric engine? Not trying to be negative just curious before making a major investment.
Thanks - good information and although the technology (battery tech) is changing so quickly, I'm convinced that Lithium Ion is the way to go. Did you do a battery bank calculation video for Freebie in a previous video?
Not a specific calculation yet, no, but the last technical video we did was a schematic and explanation of our whole system thusfar. Link is in this video description.
Hey man, Very interesting.. I want to see the welding videos on the boat lol the little welder I had back in the day plugged right into a 15 amp shared circuit household outlet and worked perfect lol u should be fine lol
Good information presented in an easily understandable way. Thanks.
What would be the best choice of marine batteries to power my C-PAP machine while I'm camping for a week? I always shut off my humidifier so it doesn't draw as much energy from the battery.
What you neglected to mention was the recharge source used to replenish your 1000Ah Battleborn lithium bank after you had the 80% power drawdown.You will need a bunch of 150 -180W solar panels if 12V units or nearly a bunch if using 24V connected panels. Let's assume that you configure that lithium bank into a 48V set up & add several high efficiency wind turbines to augment the plethora of PV panels that populate the horizontal surfaces of your sailing platform you still might need a small diesel generator to take up the deficit. It's one thing to be berthed next to a shore power option for battery bank replenishment but quite another to be underway 100 miles out & becalmed having to rely on your batttery bank to run your electric auxillary motor as well as other essentialAC or DC draws on the battery bank. If you are becalmed & its overcast "green" power ain't gonna contribute much. Many folks "dun" my viewpoint but the realistic view is what is the maximum necessary draw that the battery bank can sustain for making headway in inclement conditions when the headsail & main are heavily reefed plus what auxillary draws are present. If you have to draw down 800Ah from the bank how long is it going to take to recharge. You might as well adda Watt & Sea water generator to your mix. You can run many devices off a lithium battery bank but you cannot run many high current draw units concurrently for very long.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talkin about.
Great job on this video thank you! Nice shout out to @sailingsoulianis !
I really think you could run one of those tiny stick welders off your boat !
You still need a Flooded Lead Acid battery for starting no matter what you use for house bank.
I forgot to say you're very good at what you do I watch a lot of your videos and they're very informative and I also watched and very much liked the one about the pilothouse that's what I'm looking for I think that's the most efficient designer is at least you can get in and out of the rain and still pay attention to everything good job folks you and your wife are doing a hell of a job
Great video with very, very good information. I am not a sailor, but I do own a power boat. I'm only passingly conversant when speaking of sailboat matters. But, having said that, and watching your video, I was wondering whether it is feasible to replace a large portion of the keel weight with a large battery bank. I was thinking that perhaps a great deal of the lead in the keel could be replaced with something much lighter and then a large bank of LiFePo4 batteries could be mounted along the top of the keel plate. Would the boat still be stable?
Rick Settle Making the keel lighter and relocating that weight to a position higher in the boat would certainly reduce its stability markedly. The keel uses weight and hydrodynamics to stabilize the vessel. Part of that is accomplished by keeping the boat’s center of gravity lower, in the keel, so that when countered by the wind high in the sails the boat will remain relatively flat....and. Most importantly, upright. I’m sure a clever marine architect could design a compromise however. I’m not sold on electric power solely to be used as propulsion for cruising sailboats. Sometimes cruising requires you to motor for hours, if not a day or two. A hybrid system is feasible.
@@Seawizz203 I'd not mess with the keel but i think some battery weight just atop the keel might be low enough and i don't think a couple hundred pounds directly above the keel will hurt and might even help slightly acting as a minor addition y keel weight.
i want a tiny modular thorium reactor...
OK, so I have a new 2025 mercury 9.9 hp motor and I am wondering if I can put a Lithium Battery in my boat safely not burn the stater up in the motor
battle born loves youtubers.
Very informative video thanks.
Welding on solar with batteries do they make a small enough welder? If you could find one that only used what ever your solar output is on a sunny day it could work and save your batteries and would help with small projects or upgrades, I hope it works and will be watching and waiting.
I believe I'd be OK with a 110v welder, but not a 220.
@@LearningtheLines Looking thru the other comments you thought a 110 volt mig would work, OK but don't those also use a gas or am I missing something and if so how available is the gas?
Your question is a non sequitur - it does not matter whence the energy came because you're drawing it from batteries.
You cannot run a welder from solar panels because a solar panel is a low power device that works for many hours a day, and a welder is a high power device that works for a few minutes at a time.
@@hermitoldguy6312 What I'm getting at is, Is there a welder that is say 110 volt 30 amp that can equal their solar output so that power used is equal to power in saving their batteries for night time use.
Simple answer yes, the solar panels can supply the welder - *but not directly*.
Solar panels generate energy, batteries store energy, and the welder consumes energy. The panels can generate as much as the welder consumes,
But
Power is the rate (speed) of production or consumption of energy.
The solar panels generate it slowly (say 250W = 250 J/s) and the welder consumes it quickly (110V*30A = 3300W = 3300 J/s) - thirteen times faster than the panel can produce it.
So, for every 1 minute of welding, you need 13 minutes (in this case) of not-welding to let the panels catch up.
you did not speak of sealed wet cell batteries that are maintainance free
Thanks for the analysis, learned a lot.
You could’ve mentioned that with lead acid batteries you cannot charge economically the top 20% because the energy it takes to get from 80 to 100% is much higher than it takes to get from 50 to 80 %. So you’re really looking at 30% capacity utility in a lead acid battery. Also, as you mentioned, I would not compare with him Ion 80% to lead acid 80% because lithium ion does not have the 80% limitation. There’s no comparison. And if the upfront cost Is the problem you should go get financing. There is no excuse to use lead acid on a boat.
Nah, lithium is OLD TECH with roots going back to the 70's. Panasonic(?) Is threatening to release solid batteries--no electrolyte--next year. And several large corps are promising new techs that will blow lead and lithium off the market "soon".
Which is not to say, if BB is still around to honor those ten year warranties, that'd be nifty. There are still too many varying claims on lithium types.
Agree. My concerns are how fast those batteries will be available to the marine consumer, the safety of said batteries, how easily they will (or won't) integrate into existing systems, and cost. Look at lithium and lead through this lens, and the time it took to get all the issues worked out of lithium.
New Tech is always very expensive. Also, supply always takes a long to to satisfy demand even when cost is high. So, you may not see a reasonable cost of solid state batter for 10 years!
@@raivkka4313 Amen! My point exactly!
@@Eskay64Since they are first threatening (not guaranteeing) to release an unknown size at an unknown price next year that could mean they'll be taking wholesale orders 14 months from now. And you want exactly what? Don't hold your breath if you need it now.
LEAD Acid Batteries 🔋 r not extremely dangerous.
They r used more than any other battery so One would think that shows they r safe as long as installed correctly.
I am not trying to disagree with everything that is said here. As the video spokesperson is well educated on the topic.
Im just saying the deep cycle lead acid battery works and gets the job done for the majority of people. And will work just fine. Also they are much more affordable up front cost 4 sure.
Good video, but you failed to mention about changing/switching your charging profile to handle lithium batteries. Stock battery charging equipment will not work.
Maybe I missed it, how big is the battery bank in Freebe?