Either you're too busy to read your messages or you just don't want to talk to me but I just talked to you 35 times about pressure treated wood and what I'm going through right now
This guy lives in a box. Another basic minded “general” CTR with a tool belt. No clue why this “advice” is counter intuitive in a cold weather climate.
As a Non Carpenter for the past 26 years, I can say “I didn’t know that” Then go to the comments and see something I also didn’t know, then I realize you opened up a battle field full of carpenters, and self proclaimed carpenters. They are livid 😂 And now I don’t know what to believe
Lotta self-appointed super dupers out there. - I'll admit that I've never gotten "dry" PT lumber, but it appears it's possible if some of these people are to be believed. - Long story short, just check with your supplier. Tell them you saw some goofball on the internet slamming PT Southern Pine boards tight and see what their recommendation is.
@@myfixituplife As a painter that stained dozens of decks, I think you are wrong. The expansion gap you suggest is too small. It gets filled with leaves and debris. I try to clean out the gaps with a putty knife and can't get it between the boards which leads to rot.
@@donnash5813 I hear you. I love everyday, real life, down the road experience. Here's my take: Where I build (SE PA) we have deciduous trees--big leaves--and not a lot of conifers (kibbles and bitz) and while the gaps can fill in certain conditions (lots of shade, NO maintenance) most everything either lays on top or passes through. - Any deck without proper annual attention--it doesn't have to be anything major, just a quick power wash--will see the debris you find pass through or get pushed away. - As for getting a putty knife through the boards, that's never been a problem with the lumber I get. It comes 25% or better and shrinks to 3/16 or so across the board.
As a pro i gap 3/16... always have for 35 years. Mark is good at talking... not so good at sense-making. If one of my crews did that... they would be re-installing it.
Phewwwww....Sometimes we get lucky. We get a 3/8-inch gap here that seems to work for all seasons and locations. For really under cover decks, they need to be blown off from time to time.
As primarily a deck builder, always gap your boards. Those boards will not shrink enough to make that big of a difference. A 1/2” gap would still be fine. Just means your lumber will last longer. You nail that catspaw into every joist like that, water will get in the holes you create with that catspaw, and it’ll rot. Don’t give bad advice.
I don't like a huge gap. This PT Southern Pine gaps out to about 3/8. Big enough for rain and snow to pass along with some debris. As for the chisel mark, that's not going to allow anything to rot. Not only is the lumber rated for ground contact where microbes can get at it, but rot occurs when water (liquid or vapor) gets into a system and can't get out.
This gaps out to 3/8. I don't know the dynamics of snow melt and passage through deck boards, but assuming a gradual melt, I don't think that 1/8 is a big deal. It's a bigger deal for chair legs and comfort in bare feet. And for production. I don't need to do the extra step of gapping something that'll gap itself.
Nah mate you’ll be fixing every job you’ve done for life, everything about what your saying is wrong. @crhcarpentry is right, don’t give shit advice to people.
I love all the tips deck builders have put on TH-cam. I researched and watched videos for months, then started my deck a month ago. I'm so stoked at how solid/nice it's turned out by watching all of you guys and gals.
You can. You'll get a gap that's at least 1/2-inch, maybe closer to 5/8, which is too big for me. The wood gaps itself and I like the look of a 3/8-inch gap, so I skip fumbling around with nails.
Deck boards do not need a half inch gap which is what your ending up with after a few years. You put them together and when they shrank at leaves a perfect gap. I've been doing it for 30 years and I see what a lot of my decks look like years later. There's no advantage to having a huge ass Gap where things fall down in there. Water has no problem flowing through.
@@abc-ed1nrI been installing pressure treated boards for 50 years. Never seen them shrink that much. A 16 penny sinker is about right. If it’s in the shade all day you can use a fatter 16 penny common mail. Too small of a gap collects crap.
That's not always true. I pulled deck boards tight to begin with and the rainwater tends to pool on the surface even on seasoned decks...i switched to using a 10d nail as a spacer and it hasn't failed me since. Rather have a quarter inch gap than no gap at all.
I'm 100% not everybody nor everywhere. If what you're doing works for you and you clients, damn the torpedoes. The end result--which is what resulted on this deck--is what you say. Keep going.
If ur boards cupped. It’s because you placed them up side down. I built decks for 10 years. I always pulled them tight and never had that problem. Only on the instant where I placed one upside down because It was hard to determine what side to place up in the end grain.
I'm so glad I watched your video before building the deck. I was also thinking of using PT Southern Pine. May I have your advice? I'm thinking of painting the floor. Do I need to paint my deck after it has dried sufficiently? Or can I paint right after the deck is finished? Should I leave a gap between the deck boards in this case? One more question, do you recommend 10x?
Awesome. Thank you. We make these videos for DIYers like yourself. - PT pine is a great choice, it’s not perfect but you know what: Nothing is. - I think by “paint” you mean “stain”. I do not recommend paint. Yes, choose a deck stain you like the color of-the darker the stain, the longer it’ll last. 100% wait for the wood. To dry out. Typically, that is 6-months after installation. DO NOT apply a coating before the wood has dried. - DO NOT leave a gap for coatings. - I don’t know what 10X is. Thank you. Good luck. Please let us know if you have any questions.
And if the boards are partially dried out when you lay them, if you don’t leave expansion gaps, they will buckle! Also, narrow gaps trap rotting plant material which holds moisture. In icy conditions, damage may occur and despite being treated, the wood is more likely to rot. Always leave 3-5mm gap when laying decking like this!!
We probably don't get the same species or moisture content of lumber. This is pressure treated Southern Pine in the US. If you gap this at installation, you'll end up with 1/2-inch or larger gaps when they dry out. Too big for my liking.
@@myfixituplife the solution is to get a moisture meter. It all depends on time of year, where the wood is stored, how much rain there has been. I have had the materials for 100ft of cant rail fencing sat outside for a month. It’s been bone dry, apart from a downpour a week ago. The weather has been hot and sunny and I boarded the fence on Friday. Three days later and most of the 6” boards have shrunk by 1/4”. It’s difficult to air 200 feather boards, but decking is much easier.
@@Truckn_G I find the best thing to achieve that is to lay battens between layers of boards and strap the battens to keep the bundle tight. That way they get to dry out gently without warping. Loose laying on a deck can result in warping and buckling, but you could weight them down with something heavy. If stacking isn’t an option, probably best to just screw them down.
You've never seen pressure-treated wood buckle because they didn't leave a gap. I've been putting them together tight for 30 years and it's never happened. I would have been getting all kinds of callbacks if that was true. Everybody that puts a gap ends up with an excessive Gap when it dries out.
Just had a PT roof deck installed in Philadelphia with gaps. After two weeks of baking in the sun we had gaps of close to 1/2”. Builder came back moved everything over and put them extremely tight even though I recommended gapping as they had already shrunk. The boards were wet from a heavy rain though. Do you think that they will contract further? Deck has been down for about 2 months at this point with reinstallation done last week. Hoping I don’t have to pull out a router and open these things up.
I build largely in Springfield and Chestnut Hill. I know your climate, well, as well as you do. - I understand your questions but the horse has already escaped the stable. - A router won't do anything. Wait and see. A 3/8 gap is what we're looking for. - If you get stuck, call me. A DM on Facebook is probably best.
My Neighbors did this and, after 2 years, had to pay a fella to take every other board out and cut 1/2" off router the edge and reinstall . " looked like a lake on the deck when it rained"
It expands. It doesn’t expand to maximum moisture content. Remember, snow isn’t liquid water until it melts, then it usually melts slowly. And drains through the gaps. The wood never goes back to from-the-mill moisture content.
Im installing my deck boards in wisconsin and we are just getting into winter. Im using pressure treated wood and i can see how wet they are since liquid comes out when im screwing the boards down. Do you recommend installing them tight to each other or gapping them? I dont want a huge gap but i do want enough of a gap for drainage during summer and snow melts
First, I'd check with whomever sold you the decking. If it's a big box, I wouldn't expect much insight. A good lumber yard (and there are some really bad ones), all day. - But from what you tell me and your location I'm guessing you've got Sothern Pine rolling in at 25% MC or so. - When we installed this deck--and many others, the screw head compressing into the wood fiber squeezed out liquid. - In the 30+ years I've been doing this, I know for sure that wet wood shrinks. Soaking wet wood shrinks more. I'd butt 'em and let them gap on their own. I bet you get a nice, even 3/16-inch everywhere. - If you gap them, add 3/16 to whatever the gap is.
I will. If you're using a Camo tool and wet Southern Pine, your gaps are about 1/2-inch. Might no be able to see screw heads under tables and chair and outdoor rugs, but you can see the mud under the deck. - And maybe it's OK, bit I don't see how Camos resist cupping.
We’re imperial over here and may use different species of treated lumber, so I’m going to bale out on answering you. What species are you building with? What’s the moisture content when you get it?
@@myfixituplife 5/4x6 Southern Yellow Pine PT. Had Home Depot deliver 71 boards. Some boards were wetter than others therefore I used 2 mm shims. I haven't tested the boards for moisture content.
Where do you build? I also use PT SYP, but I'm probably 1,000 miles close to the mills than you are. - If you're getting lumber from a big box, there are likely returned pieces in your delivery. I source at a lumber yard and they don't accept PT returns. Everything is the same MC when it gets to me so I don't have to fuss with it. Slam and jam, baby.
As someone with 40 years experience, you can never predict how much they will shrink, and 1/8" is not enough. Even 1/4" a lot of tree debris and leaves will get caught. I leave an 1/8th inch, and end up with 1/4-3/8" but even 1/2" is fine, and is what I try to do on my own decks.
I'm in 30. I'm also in a number of Facebook groups with deck builder who think their sh++ don't stink. They post pictures of PT decks with miters all over the place. They 100%look awesome when the leave. But two weeks later...forget it. - I also work alone and am a fiend for saved steps. The PT I get gaps 3/8 all day and I have to do nothing. Nothing is faster than something. - Still, 40-years is beast mode. Keep hammerin'. I'm happy to follow along. Chime in any time
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You can sort of predict how much they Will shrink, just measure the moisture!
Not building a dock. 2 x 6 decking. Toenail to but side-by-side you indeed every single time will get 1/8" shrinkage with fresh PT pine. Will leave a uniform gap. A half inch is way to excessive. Just enough for a child to get some fingers caught or someone to get a toe caught + aesthetics! I finished cap should never be wider than a #2 pencil.
I'm near Chicago and the weather swings wildly that you cannot install like this. When it rains alot the 5/4 wood swells shut and puddles appear, you have to gap the boards. when its dry for a week or so, i maybe have 3/16" gaps.
@@myfixituplife composite decking doesn't absorb moisture or swell when wet. it expands and contracts to temperature changes but always requires a gap. I think the issue is that people want a gap even during the rainy season.
@@myfixituplife You are wrong. IF the board is dryer when you put it in and it get wet then it will expand to father then when you put it in. Proven fact in the building trades groups. Good composite will not swell in moisture the cheap junk that is just glue and press wood will. And no not all decking will swell. Mine doesn't swell at all and it barely expand and contract either. I have aluminum decking. IT is one of the only one that doesn't get hot when the sun it beating on it.
Question. If the timber is going to shrink, then besides the fact the timber isn't treated to a standard I would call treated, why are you using two screws per joist? As each board shrinks, this will result in stress in the boards and possibly cause splitting. Why not one screw either centre or towards an edge, and put more in after the board has shrunk?
First, we're definitely on different continents with different criteria. But in the case here, we get PT Southern Pine. Saturated. There is no direction this is going other than smaller. It's also a 5 1/2-inch wide board. A single center screw wouldn't hold it down and it'd cup.
@@myfixituplife So not chemically treated? In that case, indeed it would shrink. Is it likely to expand again, or is that taken care of by painting/sealing?
And when it dry's out they tend to warp and push against each other and initiate movement throughout the deck. A gap will allow the deck floor to move individually. So i repair is needed it will allow the new board fit with fighting the old boards.
I can confirm this. I recently built my uncles deck this way with heavy "wet" boards and butted them all together. Now that it's dried out a few weeks later it has excellent gapping
I'm currently doing a DIY project. I'm replacing the deckboard and reusing the foundation. I've been told to butt the boards up tight, some people DIY content creators say gap them. I live in Maryland, its hot & humid here in the summer and cold in the winter. My deck is about 20 inches off the ground. I havent fastened the boards down yet. I'm cutting them, placing them down to let them dry out. Then I'm going to paint them on both sides. Thanks for posting.
I've built in MD. I'm not that far away from you in PHL. - I've also built "decks" that I've put in the ocean as swim floats and docks on Cape Cod. - But 'em. - They'll shrink and look great. - For my re-skins, I tape the joists to cover the old holes.
When you buy pressure treated wood, you have no way of knowing how much it may have already dried out. Perhaps you can weigh the boards. Last time I bought pressure treated lumber to redo my old deck, the boards varied considerably in weight. I decided to simply lay them down without attaching them. Only after they dried did I screw them in.
You're not the only one to bring this up. If that works for you, terrific. But no contractor alive can stay in business doing this. And those boards were twisted AF.
Good question. Answer is there is the same amount of moisture in wet Southern Pine year round. The moisture doesn't come from the ambient air, it comes from the treatment process. I've gotten bunks in the winter that were frozen solid.
Genuine question though, what happens to the wood when it gets rained on? Are you saying the moisture content at the moment of fitting is now than the timber can take in a 2 week wet spell?
Exactly. The material arrives from the lumber yard with a moisture content so high (I'd have to say 20%, maybe higher) that environmental conditions aren't such that it could swell back up and close the 3/8-inch gap it dries to. Heck, this was years ago, but we used to build swim floats like this and throw them in the ocean and the boards gapped.
Actually your gap size should take a couple of things into account. First is debris buildup from things like surrounding tree leaf & seed litter. So many forget to account for this simple, yet, most important aspect to keep from creating debris buildup which creates moisture issues & eventually contributes to rot. I also totally agree with the comments on using a cats claw or other tools that might tear up or score the wood surface in manner contributing to rot. Smooth wood vs. rough surfaces shed water more readily. With that said, if your gaps are not large enough debris can actually get easily stuck becoming wedged & at times extremely difficult to remove, contributing to moisture buildup & rot. Things like leaf & seed stems are notoriously problematic, even with blowers, brooms, & pressure washers… Second is to account for zoning & whether there are impervious surface considerations. Gap sizing is sometimes taken into account in allowances to drop square footage impervious calculations on a site, with gaps large enough sometimes allowing for lowered square footage for impervious surface totals & thus allowing you to develop more area for construction if needed. This is, however, totally dependent on local codes & their interpretation.
I appreciate all your observations. I also appreciate that you're civil and for all the "you're dumb" dummies listening, listen to this guy. - That said, I politely disagree. - Debris build-up is a maintenance issue. There are a million variables, But if you have a 100-year old Doug Fir over your deck shedding needles 24/7, you need to blow the deck off when you mow your lawn. I'm remodeling a deck right now with similar conditions and it's like it's raining on me all day. A sewer grate would get clogged. - Ground contact PT does rot, but it takes decades. - As for zoning, I hear you. I'm not sure gap sizing is a contributing factor. I think it's an either/or: A deck is impervious. A deck isn't impervious. At least that's my experience. - Either way, thank you. Please chime in any time.
That wisdom has been handed down for decades. Only thing is, it's not accurate. Grain orientation has nothing to do with cupping. Pick the best side, face it up and fly.
I've been in the trades for 25+ yrs. Always gap your boards! Installing them tight will result in improper/irregular gapping and cause more moisture problems, cupping/warping.
I'm primarily in remodeling and building. There are many tools available that even for wood installation have a preset spacing tool, it's a toenail application. Camo tool, kreg are two examples. Putting the boards tight isn't guaranteed you get equal spacing. No two boards will shrink the same. It's better to have a 5/16 gap instead of inconsistencies. Plus certain codes require you to gap your boards 👍
@@erichilyard3565 either this guy lives in the desert, or he is trolling for clicks and its working. There are lots of internet fools now saying the wrong thing just for views and comments.
How would gapping the boards make the gaps more consistent? With your logic then not gapping the boards should have the same effect. Think about it, if you gap the boards 1/32", you're saying gapping the boards 1/2" instead will somehow mysteriously make the gaps more consistent as they dryout?
@@ahilbilyredneksopinion Technically, yes. I’ve resurfaced decks where the lumber has been buried for 30-years. However, if there’s a way you can lay a few inches of gravel, I highly recommend it.
In my experience thats not a rule that can be adhered to. Often times there is damage on the boards. You have to put the best side up, otherwise there would be far too much waste . Also, to my understanding, "bark side up" is preferred for decks that don't get a lot of sun and therfore stay moist. If they are getting sun and dry out they will cup upward. .
@@timbarry5080if you lay them with the crown oriented properly. They wont cup to hold water. They may still cup but the center will be high so the rot causing water will run off.
@@myfixituplife BS your just lazy if you get a dryer board and space tight and it gets wet it will be to tight. Think yoiu really need to go back and talk to some good builders and lumber some lumber companies and get yourself set straight.
@@myfixituplife good thing I went back a week later boards were beginning to crack, 3 broken screws. Ended up gapping 1/4 took us 4 hour’s and 760 screws out and back in. But we will get lots of snow and rain. Didn’t want to risk 1500 in redwood love to send you a picture of it and IT’s view. Will be putting a wall tent on it. Was just to prevent the drafts coming under neath the floor. Thank you 🙏
Ive heard both ways which is confusing as a greenhorn homeowner but im redoing an old deck with original joist so I wanna keep from the gap minimal to prolong the joist long as possible
Hopefully, I can help. Pressure treated Southern Pine arrives at your doorstep at something like 25% moisture content. This is by design. Slam them tight and it is INEVITABLE they'll dry out to a 3/8-inch gap. Also--and we have another video on this--DO NOT miter your top caps. For the same reason--moisture leaving the wood changes its shape--the miter will open at the bottom and close at the top.
I'm looking at these comments and beginning to think that people are getting different decking boards in different areas. I built a deck in South West Michigan with pressure treated lumber and butted the boards tightly. After a season there was plenty of gap between the boards. I bought the lumber from a big box store and had moisture being squeezed out of the boards when the screws went in. After two seasons there was more than a quarter inch gap and the deck looked very nice. Is it that we're getting different boards with different moisture content from state to state?
1- Thank you for being a curious human being. 2 - I get the same feeling, but I'm also about 99% circumspect because of how the "information" is being communicated. 3 - You probably get the same Southern Pine I do. As does, as I understand it, everybody East of the Mississippi, give or take. - Sure, this might not work for international audiences, but for the gajillions of board feet just in my region, it works all day. Thank you for contributing. Lots of people can learn from you.
I think it best to still gap. My neighbour didn’t do that a few years ago and had a low ground level deck. He is having some issues. My deck is 2 to 3 feet off grade but was completely sealed off due to animals burrowing under. I ended up having to replace all the boards and also installed joist tape and then added some west ward facing vents with metal rodents screening on the east and west sides to let the deck breathe
Yes, a deck needs to have some air flow. Still, I'm surprised. I've built docks and swim floats like this and thrown them in the ocean and gaps still opened up.
💯 correct!! My deck has this type of wood and once the wood dries out, the gaps are perfect at 1/8” to 3/16”. Also, sink your screw 1/8” below the surface or they will protrude once the wood is dry.
Built many piers decked, many piers, which used pressure treated 2x6, on the sun they will shrink so we never used a gap unless had to square up a side, bang a 20 penny nail between each board to bring it around some. Comes back a month later or couple months maybe there’s always a little gap
You, sir, sound old school. I hand-banged many a deck (they were docks and swim floats we put in the ocean, but same idea). The hand-drive toe nail is a thing of utter beauty.
I've ben hoping somebody from the PNW would chime in and offer some input. We use high moisture content Southern Pine. It dries and shrinks leaving a 3/8-inch gap that never fully closes back up, even with snow. - I know your framing lumber is incised fir, but what about the decking? PT fir too? Cedar? - All those would need gaps.
Another keyboard warrior you could have said , depending on the area you're from. I'm from south California where they will shrink 1/2 inch at least baking in the sun .
I built a ton of decks in Vancouver and we always gapped 1/16 or 1/8 and never had any problems. I moved to Ontario and all decking is installed right like this and exactly as described, the decking shrinks but doesn’t expand back over the content that it came with so therefore doesn’t over swell causing cupping or cracking. If it’s not a species related detail then it must be the environmental moisture in the PNW means the wood doesn’t shrink as much as opposed to here where it will dry out much more. Just my thoughts on this.
My first was installed like this. Being outside, they never dried out and cupped and held water and slush. Second deck, they wanted to do it that way. It never dried out like I told them. Collected water like I told them it would. Told them to get their asses back there and do it the way I wanted in the first place. Alls good now. Problem is, builders think it srinks but never go back to look. Meybe in Arizona, but Im in the northeast.
Mark - Found you after reading an excellent article in JLC about resurfacing a deck. Great info! I was impressed with the Acre composite decking, but have determined to use PT SYP due to the cost delta. For reference - I live in OKC, OK. Retired boiler salesman with good DIY skills.....and lots of good contractor friends. Here's my question(s) for you: 1) I am considering using the Camo edge fastener that places a 1/16" gap. Your thoughts....? 2) Have you used the Camo Pro-X1....with 2-3/8" Camo screws with PT SYP...? 3) Does edge screwing with this tool change the edge shrinkage...? Greatly appreciate your content and sharing your experience with those that have ears to hear!
You, sir, are a machine. I very much appreciate your kind words.- Let's get yo your points. I could not be a bigger fan of PT SYP. I don't know your climate well, but I'd follow the local Sherwin Williams store recommendations for sealing it. - I love Camo for composite (stable across the grain AT install), but for PT--soaking at install, at least here--not on your life. - I use #10 by 2 1/2-inch Spax HcrX face screws for my 5/4 decking. - There is no force in the world that changes the movement of moisture out of the wood. - This is the same for top caps and miters. They'll look smokin' when you install the, but 2-weeks later the heel opens and the toe closes. You can drop coins in there. - Check out my video on stepped miters. - I hope this helps. Let me know. - th-cam.com/video/aidLfCXSd8k/w-d-xo.html - th-cam.com/video/kAChBcgxZqw/w-d-xo.html
@@myfixituplife Mark - HCR-X face-screws it is! Glad I asked. I used your Amazon link to buy (10) boxes of HCR-X screws.....gonna need about 6000 to do my entire deck, but this will get me started. My deck is low to the ground (due to door elevations), so no railings needed, but your step miter is very sharp looking, I will use it to picture frame the perimeter. Whether its decking or door casings, crappy mitering really bugs me ! Great tip !!
You are 100% correct. Those deck boards shrink a lot over time . If you gap them they will get even bigger. And yes i use a chisel to move them over. Looks like you came from the same school of building that I did.
Uofudavid You are the kind of people no one wants at the job site. I know a few like you, they claim to know everything about everything, and when I check their work. It looks mediocre.
@@myfixituplife Actually it is causing a place for water to sit and get into the lumber. IF you ever have tore off old decking you see that the only place that is bad is where the screw went in to the lumber. Your lazy and don't want to us the deck board straighten they have out now. Do it right or don't do it at all and don't saw things that are not right. Your a hack at best.
@@myfixituplife Sorry, but he's right on that point - you've just penetrated the upper surface of the joist RIGHT where moisture is going to get deposited
@@somenteasescrituras4064 He didn't claim to know everything he's just making a solid point. Life is much better when you're not bitter and open to being wrong sometimes 😜
Always gap your boards a minimum of three eights inch. You will end up with approximately half inch cap which is perfect. Let dirt debris and especially small leaves and twigs go through.
Here in england I install with a 10mm 3/8” gap as with amount of rain we get that gap will become 6mm - 1/4” in no time. If pulled in tight where does the expansion have room to go. Using a flooring joist clamp you can easily lay, space and clamp 4 - 5 boards at a time without damaging the board edges breaching the dipped anti rot coat.
Hey England! You certainly do have a higher dew point year round than us, give or take, and even though we're on a parallel with Lisbon, you're way milder. What species of lumber are you using. What are the chemical retention levels? What's the chemical? Is it rated for ground contact? Can we discuss this in a pub over a pint?
@@myfixituplife mainly softwood as customer wants to keep cost down. Sometimes hemlock and on occasion composite recycled plastic/timber mix but with its hardiness and straightness its expense. Using joist clamps and clamping rows at a time with a few temporary bearers secured though the gaps to keep them down to stop then lifting during clamping the process doesn’t take that much longer really I always advise do not paint with decking paint as it look great when done but looks tatty 2 years later and the you have paints it each year. Far better to let it weather a year than when good and dried out coat with a clear or tinted wood preserver as if soaks in as opposed to painting with minimal absorption and the remainder sitting on top waiting be worn off. I’d never fix direct to ground and the boards can never dry out. I’ve installed over existing concrete slabs but always on composite or plastic 2 x 2 bearers to keep them out the puddled water. Can get away with 2 x 1 if run off is good but often not if DIY install. Best way is to veiw after rain and see how big/deep the puddles are.
@@myfixituplife a nick? He hammers that thing in and then bends it while in there. If you cut a pressure treated board you are supposed to treat the cut edge. So now he has made a hole down into the wood. A top part as well. So water has no where to escape. Water sitting in a hole in wood will start to rot the wood. That’s how rot works
Sure it does. It may depend on where you live, too. So check with your supplier--not me. - On the other hand, I've built stuff with PT lumber for decades. It's all wet. My supplier literally calls it "wet" on the invoice. - The chemical in it is water borne...Anyway, ALL wet wood shrinks, not just SOME wet wood. Come on.
If the deck is low to the ground, maybe 2' or less under the joists I would recommend leaving a gap. Am I the only one that's replaced old decks that all the PT boards were swollen shut?
You can't be the only one. When the industry changed from CCA to whatever alphabet soup it became going on 20-years ago, those boards didn't behave like CCA or how it behaves today. Between 20-years going by and the chemical change, it sounds about right that you'd be replacing those decks.
I use a medium size Phillips head screw driver to gap in Central NY. Only built 4-5 decks (all for myself) but they all turn out fine and yes even with a wider than most gap they still collect leaves and such.
@@myfixituplife I just measured my gaps on a deck I built last Sept or Oct and I'm at a consistent 3/8". Even if they grow to a full 1/2" over the next year I'm fine with that. Makes for good drainage and plant material easily flushed out with a garden hose. There will be no mold or moss growing in my gaps.
@@myfixituplife our weather here fluctuates so much. We go from -35 degrees celsius to plus 30 degrees Celsius. The lumber is also hit or miss. Some pieces are really wet like you said and others are really dry.
@@qualityonebuildingsolution802 Interesting. Our weather fluctuates, of course but the lumber-at least from my supplier-isn’t in their yard long enough to even have the top boards on the bunk drier than the ones from inside. It’s all high moisture content PT Southern Pine. What species do you get up there?
@@myfixituplife I'm calling bs on the moisture content the center will always be wetter then the outside. Moisture meter will prove this. Just a known fact. Only way it will not be is if it comes right out of the treatment place to the jobsite the same day. Once it hit the outside dryer air and its in bunks the outside starts to dry and inside is wet still.
I’m up the northeast. If it’s in the heat of summer, I run the 5/4 all tight when installing. It it’s in the cold winter I space them with a 8D common. Been working this way for me for decades
I always gap them with a speed square they will shrink, but expand a few year later. I just replaced a 15 yr old deck that failed the boards would not 6 water to pass through
I like to use a couple nails into a cedar shingle that I can space the board out quickly and perfectly. Putting it tight and expecting it to shrink is not the answer. Unless there is no trees around your house for about 100 ft, And you do not get snow. I would perhaps try your theory in Arizona.
My theory is not a theory. All wet lumber shrinks. Every mile of PT decking I've gotten for decades is 25% moisture content or thereabouts. Setting the screw squirts out water. And all wet wood shrinks. Just like the miters you think look awesome when you leave. 3-weeks later, those heels have opened about a mile. - I do like your trick with the shingle though. This would be ideal for, coincidentally, a cedar deck. Cedar ships green, but it is just green, not pressure cooked like Southern Pine is.
How much you expect timber to shrink? Each board might shrink a couple of mm across the grain. And unless your timber is absolutely soaking wet it wouldn't shrink anyway, its outside, the moisture content will constantly fluctuate.
3/16-inch each board, each side for a total of 3/8-inch. The wood shows up saturated, dries and contracts on its own. I doubt we use the same material and am pretty sure your moisture content is different than mine. Maybe not, Southern Pine is shipped internationally.
Always pre gap the wood, otherwise the boards will rip out if they do happen to swell. Boards move. I've installed many decks, and many hardwood floors. The difference is climate and moisture controll.
These boards will not “happen to swell”. They WILL swell, they just won’t swell to out-of-the mill moisture content. Installing them tight means they contract, leaving ample room for them to swell without making a gap so large it eats chair legs and the wheels of the grill fall in between them.
@@joeadorjan1206 I agree. Also, flooring expands and contracts as a membrane. You leave the gaps around the perimeter, so the whole thing has room to move as a unit.
@@myfixituplife Not if it has been drying for more then 5 minutes lumber start to dry right out of the treatment process and the inside lumber of a bunk is wetter then the outside and will not have the same moisture content. Any good treatment place will tell you this and person ever buying PT lumber will know the closer to the center the wetter the lumber is in a bunk. The outside could be about dry and then inside is like you just pulled if from a pond.
It all depends on location and if the deck is covered or not in my opinion. It’s definitely easier to not set the gap but if the deck is uncovered the gap should be larger to allow for debris to fall through.
This lands in a personal preference zone. This deck is in a wood area--not directly under trees, but lots of leaf debris close--and it's not clogged. Hitting the deck with a blower from time to time might be a solution, too.
@@myfixituplife I have to disagree with that. There’s not a one size fits all for putting down deck boards some situation’s warrant more of a gap. But as I said, this is my opinion
Correct. It doesn't. But hidden fasteners aren't really hidden, they're just somewhere else. Not that I don't like them, I do. Using hidden fasteners with PT will yield a 1/2-inch + gap. Too wide for me, bro.
100%. Same as my trailer...ack...30-years old...the guy who works on it for me wasn't even born when I bought it...Perfect for tires and trash an sittin' in the yard.
I know a local company here in pa who is getting there wood from a manufacturer in Wisconsin, they make they’re own pressure treated wood that’s kiln dryer after being treated
I'm in SEPA and, yeah, KDAT is the acronym. I can't get it in the quantities I need. Moreover, last time I checked, it's not thermally treated (that decking is out there and seems pretty bullet proof) or rated for ground contact. It *should* work. But unless the deck is maintained "ground" gets to the decking. It starts as leaves and organic matter and then becomes "ground".
I believe you. Ring shank nails are beast mode. I used to hand nail screw shanks once upon a time. - These, however, are not a typical deck screw. #10 x 2 1/2 Spax, I use them (with plan review approval) in metal hardware, too. They also work like Tapcons.
@@myfixituplife I'm not trying to say anything bad about your skills. Just here in Michigan the lumber will expand, and contact enough that the screws will break in under 5 years. My experience. That's why I use ring shank nails unless it's a composite deck board. I prefer TimberTech, but either way it's a softer deck board.
@@myfixituplife by the way I really don't mean you any disrespect this is just my experience and I'm trying to share with you. I do like your videos you are good people.
Installed them nice and tight last summer. This summer it’s been hot without any rain, and some of the gaps are good 1/2”. Keep ‘em tight boys and girls.
Man where I live and do decking alot as well as maintaining said decking for my clients this would not work lol. I always gap with a nail or decking screw and it leaves a large enough gap once fully dried that the basswood seeds will pass through or just need to be pushed through with a painters tool quick. Somone had built a deck before I started doing work for a client and I had to tear apart their deck due to rot from leaf litter and those seeds being trapped because the initial builder never gapped it. This is in minnesota though we have terrible weather for rot tons of rain humidity and varying temperatures and tons of leaf litter.
Your weather is way more extreme than ours for sure. What species of PT do you get? I'd assume Southern Pine. - The more I hear of decks being jammed up with needles and the like, the more I think decks should be blown off when the lawn is mowed. It takes a long time for organic matter to wedge in.
@myfixituplife yeah southern pine is pretty much what you will find around here and as for the organic stuff getting in there is alot of basswood trees in the area and they drop a ton of seeds that are like 1/4inch or so with a soft shell on them that easily breaks and composts so in that area it's best to have like a 3/8in gap when it's done drying and ready to stain so you don't have to dig tons of brittle seeds out in between boards. I also have to clean the gutters each fall before I finish up in that area and again normally in the spring again lol it's way out in the woods lol.
Depending on the grain of the treated timber the gaps will end up varying in width. I only use kiln dried decking or a composite material.....and use hot dipped galvanised screws......
Hot dipped are for real. These are Spax screws, # 10 x 2 1/2-inch. The coating is rated just below stainless steel and they're 10,000 times easier to work with because they're not soft. I can't really get KDAT decking because of the volumes I'd have to buy it in, but that's a good call on your end too.
In theory, I guess. But the entire supply chain, as I understand it, is set up for wet wood to arrive on site and gap itself naturally. I don't know of a single lumber yard that keeps PT around long enough for it to get dry and still be in business.
Theyre set up to deliver wet wood to match the market. They won’t wait around for it to dry out as wood not moved doesn’t bring in $$. CCA (chromium copper arsenate) treatment makes the wood harder and more brittle when dry as compared to untreated. It does the same to utility poles. Want a great looking deck? Buy the lumber ahead of time, store it covered lightly for awhile to let it dry and then put it together.
I've never used lumber that is soaking wet. 2 weeks in the shed and it's a lot lighter to handle and the screws won't pull thru it. I gap it 1/8"and never had it close up or open to more than 1/4", which is not excessive.
I'm not sure where you get not soaked PT. I believe you, but I've never seen it. I'm also not moving a deck package around in my or anybody else's yard to to dry. Besides, it wouldn't dry meaningfully. If your system works, have at it.
AN 8-INCH GAP! - Kidding. I believe you. - I leave a 16-d nail for cedar (that's how old I am by the way; it also works). PT where I work...spacing is a waste of time. - I have little doubt you do good work and care for your customers. The last thing I'm gonna do is harp on 1/8th. - Keep 'em comin'
It may gap itself where you come from but in my own deck in Scotland i made my gaps minimal and some of the boards ended up being so close together they never gapped and the debris in between boards made them retain their moisture content until I actually cleaned them. And mine is a South facing deck. You just don't want to recommend stuff like that to people in my area because their decks will rot prematurely, no two ways about it.
In the umpteen decks I've build over decades, it hasn't really varied. I'm not everywhere and don't know everything. We used to build swim floats like this and throw them in the ocean and they gapped.
Best advice ever. I’ve built hundreds of P/T decks. Ensure what side of the board goes up first to prevent cupping and it’s much better to toe nail then face nail, but this is actually better with no gaps if the moister content of the boards are very obvious. Face nailing of a dryer board may result in squeaking once expansion & contraction occurs multiple times and some small splitting. But over all yes it is better to bring the. Boards together tight. 👍
Some codes require it. Others don't. I regularly pull apart 30-year old decks with joists so in tact I can't get the fasteners out. - On re-skins I tape and for composite I tape because the wood is so visible through the decking gaps.
If that’s been stored outside in the damp wet then yes you can keep them fairly close, I’d never install them touching though unless they were soaking wet.
Legit question. On the one hand, it depends on your knees. There's enough up and down decking that I'm primarily good--though I hauled 'em out today--without them. Listen to your body.
I live in the Midwest and I can say that after two years of a deck being down with covid era PT lumber...we just had to have ours redone to remove massive gaps. When first laid it was lovely 1/8 in gaps, but after the seasons...it opened up in some places to .5 to .75 in which is unsafe and ugly. The covid era wood of all varieties was VERY wet and of lower quality in general. It still sucks but its slowly getting better.
Just that you link Covid to your deck, no. Yes, there were interruptions in logging and other meta economic issues with a years log runway, yes. But the retention levels--to my knowledge--saw no changes.
it really depends where you're building. where I live, It's super dry so we butt them tight, but if you did that out in the PNW they would swell and fuck things up, so you have to gap it
To be fair, this is PT Southern Pine and I'm in Philadelphia. 100% not PNW with Doug Fir PT, right? _ Excellent comments like yours that have actual information in them make me wistful for the days when I was a magazine editor and we could get opinions from builders all over the place. Please chime in any time. If there was a way to have an editorial board, I'd get you in there.
👉For more deck building tips: th-cam.com/play/PLdLol426YERQNwoX_HZH0-lRRBIvAHSNe.html
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You're installing that board upside down.
Bad advice. I’ve been building decks with PT lumber for over 40 years. My own deck is 23 years old. I spaced the boards and they’re still fine.
Either you're too busy to read your messages or you just don't want to talk to me but I just talked to you 35 times about pressure treated wood and what I'm going through right now
This guy lives in a box. Another basic minded “general” CTR with a tool belt. No clue why this “advice” is counter intuitive in a cold weather climate.
As a Non Carpenter for the past 26 years, I can say “I didn’t know that”
Then go to the comments and see something I also didn’t know, then I realize you opened up a battle field full of carpenters, and self proclaimed carpenters. They are livid 😂
And now I don’t know what to believe
Lotta self-appointed super dupers out there. - I'll admit that I've never gotten "dry" PT lumber, but it appears it's possible if some of these people are to be believed. - Long story short, just check with your supplier. Tell them you saw some goofball on the internet slamming PT Southern Pine boards tight and see what their recommendation is.
I did this last fall. Had nothing but moaning and complaining from a friend. He came back in June. Perfectly gapped lol.
@@myfixituplife As a painter that stained dozens of decks, I think you are wrong. The expansion gap you suggest is too small. It gets filled with leaves and debris. I try to clean out the gaps with a putty knife and can't get it between the boards which leads to rot.
@@donnash5813 I hear you. I love everyday, real life, down the road experience. Here's my take: Where I build (SE PA) we have deciduous trees--big leaves--and not a lot of conifers (kibbles and bitz) and while the gaps can fill in certain conditions (lots of shade, NO maintenance) most everything either lays on top or passes through. - Any deck without proper annual attention--it doesn't have to be anything major, just a quick power wash--will see the debris you find pass through or get pushed away. - As for getting a putty knife through the boards, that's never been a problem with the lumber I get. It comes 25% or better and shrinks to 3/16 or so across the board.
As a pro i gap 3/16... always have for 35 years. Mark is good at talking... not so good at sense-making. If one of my crews did that... they would be re-installing it.
Ive done it both ways, and thankfully the customers were happy with the results. I think a larger gap up north is a better idea for leaves, snow, etc.
Phewwwww....Sometimes we get lucky. We get a 3/8-inch gap here that seems to work for all seasons and locations. For really under cover decks, they need to be blown off from time to time.
As primarily a deck builder, always gap your boards. Those boards will not shrink enough to make that big of a difference. A 1/2” gap would still be fine. Just means your lumber will last longer.
You nail that catspaw into every joist like that, water will get in the holes you create with that catspaw, and it’ll rot.
Don’t give bad advice.
!00% In Michigan 3 foot of snow every month over 6 months i wanted a 1/2 inch gap
Your absolutely right. I build in the Caribbean and lost a pressure treated deck in 5 years because of lack of spacing.
I don't like a huge gap. This PT Southern Pine gaps out to about 3/8. Big enough for rain and snow to pass along with some debris. As for the chisel mark, that's not going to allow anything to rot. Not only is the lumber rated for ground contact where microbes can get at it, but rot occurs when water (liquid or vapor) gets into a system and can't get out.
This gaps out to 3/8. I don't know the dynamics of snow melt and passage through deck boards, but assuming a gradual melt, I don't think that 1/8 is a big deal. It's a bigger deal for chair legs and comfort in bare feet. And for production. I don't need to do the extra step of gapping something that'll gap itself.
Nah mate you’ll be fixing every job you’ve done for life, everything about what your saying is wrong.
@crhcarpentry is right, don’t give shit advice to people.
I love all the tips deck builders have put on TH-cam. I researched and watched videos for months, then started my deck a month ago. I'm so stoked at how solid/nice it's turned out by watching all of you guys and gals.
YES! That is why we do this.
Use a standard 16D framing nail as a gap on fresh PT green boards.
You can. You'll get a gap that's at least 1/2-inch, maybe closer to 5/8, which is too big for me. The wood gaps itself and I like the look of a 3/8-inch gap, so I skip fumbling around with nails.
@@myfixituplife
“Half inch to 5/8 with a 16”???
Nonsense.
Deck boards do not need a half inch gap which is what your ending up with after a few years. You put them together and when they shrank at leaves a perfect gap. I've been doing it for 30 years and I see what a lot of my decks look like years later. There's no advantage to having a huge ass Gap where things fall down in there. Water has no problem flowing through.
A 5.5” deck board will not shrink a half inch.
@@abc-ed1nrI been installing pressure treated boards for 50 years. Never seen them shrink that much. A 16 penny sinker is about right. If it’s in the shade all day you can use a fatter 16 penny common mail. Too small of a gap collects crap.
A lot will depend on time of year the deck is being built
I guess. Not for me. I get deck packages in winter that are so wet they're frozen together.
That's not always true. I pulled deck boards tight to begin with and the rainwater tends to pool on the surface even on seasoned decks...i switched to using a 10d nail as a spacer and it hasn't failed me since. Rather have a quarter inch gap than no gap at all.
I'm 100% not everybody nor everywhere. If what you're doing works for you and you clients, damn the torpedoes. The end result--which is what resulted on this deck--is what you say. Keep going.
@@myfixituplife blah blah blah.
I'll stick to having a gap / large gap then a possible hairline crack thank you much.
@@brianwoods6403 you do you bro. Have a nice day.
What I noticed that if the wood is dry I gap it. If wet I make it tight. 🤪 n again it all depends what day it is m.t.w.t.f.s.s. 😆
If ur boards cupped. It’s because you placed them up side down. I built decks for 10 years. I always pulled them tight and never had that problem. Only on the instant where I placed one upside down because It was hard to determine what side to place up in the end grain.
I'm so glad I watched your video before building the deck. I was also thinking of using PT Southern Pine. May I have your advice? I'm thinking of painting the floor. Do I need to paint my deck after it has dried sufficiently? Or can I paint right after the deck is finished? Should I leave a gap between the deck boards in this case? One more question, do you recommend 10x?
Awesome. Thank you. We make these videos for DIYers like yourself. - PT pine is a great choice, it’s not perfect but you know what: Nothing is. - I think by “paint” you mean “stain”. I do not recommend paint. Yes, choose a deck stain you like the color of-the darker the stain, the longer it’ll last. 100% wait for the wood. To dry out. Typically, that is 6-months after installation. DO NOT apply a coating before the wood has dried. - DO NOT leave a gap for coatings. - I don’t know what 10X is. Thank you. Good luck. Please let us know if you have any questions.
And if the boards are partially dried out when you lay them, if you don’t leave expansion gaps, they will buckle! Also, narrow gaps trap rotting plant material which holds moisture. In icy conditions, damage may occur and despite being treated, the wood is more likely to rot.
Always leave 3-5mm gap when laying decking like this!!
We probably don't get the same species or moisture content of lumber. This is pressure treated Southern Pine in the US. If you gap this at installation, you'll end up with 1/2-inch or larger gaps when they dry out. Too big for my liking.
@@myfixituplife the solution is to get a moisture meter. It all depends on time of year, where the wood is stored, how much rain there has been. I have had the materials for 100ft of cant rail fencing sat outside for a month. It’s been bone dry, apart from a downpour a week ago. The weather has been hot and sunny and I boarded the fence on Friday. Three days later and most of the 6” boards have shrunk by 1/4”. It’s difficult to air 200 feather boards, but decking is much easier.
@@IIIIIIPETEIIIIIII've found the best thing to do is to lay the boards on the deck and let the sun dry them out for about a week.
@@Truckn_G I find the best thing to achieve that is to lay battens between layers of boards and strap the battens to keep the bundle tight. That way they get to dry out gently without warping. Loose laying on a deck can result in warping and buckling, but you could weight them down with something heavy. If stacking isn’t an option, probably best to just screw them down.
You've never seen pressure-treated wood buckle because they didn't leave a gap. I've been putting them together tight for 30 years and it's never happened. I would have been getting all kinds of callbacks if that was true. Everybody that puts a gap ends up with an excessive Gap when it dries out.
Just had a PT roof deck installed in Philadelphia with gaps. After two weeks of baking in the sun we had gaps of close to 1/2”. Builder came back moved everything over and put them extremely tight even though I recommended gapping as they had already shrunk. The boards were wet from a heavy rain though. Do you think that they will contract further? Deck has been down for about 2 months at this point with reinstallation done last week. Hoping I don’t have to pull out a router and open these things up.
I build largely in Springfield and Chestnut Hill. I know your climate, well, as well as you do. - I understand your questions but the horse has already escaped the stable. - A router won't do anything. Wait and see. A 3/8 gap is what we're looking for. - If you get stuck, call me. A DM on Facebook is probably best.
My Neighbors did this and, after 2 years, had to pay a fella to take every other board out and cut 1/2" off router the edge and reinstall . " looked like a lake on the deck when it rained"
Yep. A lady paid me once to kinda do that. I put 2 saw blades on skil saw and ran it down every joint. She bought me 2 saws also.
Two saw blades? Creative.
@@myfixituplife how can you recommend this method with stories like these?
@@jonathonfrederick2062 he cant, he's running out of excuses. Help him come up with one please.
Because who ever laid them butted them together tight while they were bone ass dry, on a bone dry ass day.
What is that tool you are using to pull the new board up tight to the previous board?
It's an old 3/4-inch chisel. When you drive it into the boar, make sure the bevel is facing the edge of the board and the flat side is away from you.
So what about cold temperature and snow. What happened when it expands 😮
It expands. It doesn’t expand to maximum moisture content. Remember, snow isn’t liquid water until it melts, then it usually melts slowly. And drains through the gaps. The wood never goes back to from-the-mill moisture content.
@@myfixituplife 🤞
@@kirkwise1107 Don't listen to this guy. Talk to the treatment place and get the truth.
Im installing my deck boards in wisconsin and we are just getting into winter. Im using pressure treated wood and i can see how wet they are since liquid comes out when im screwing the boards down. Do you recommend installing them tight to each other or gapping them? I dont want a huge gap but i do want enough of a gap for drainage during summer and snow melts
First, I'd check with whomever sold you the decking. If it's a big box, I wouldn't expect much insight. A good lumber yard (and there are some really bad ones), all day. - But from what you tell me and your location I'm guessing you've got Sothern Pine rolling in at 25% MC or so. - When we installed this deck--and many others, the screw head compressing into the wood fiber squeezed out liquid. - In the 30+ years I've been doing this, I know for sure that wet wood shrinks. Soaking wet wood shrinks more. I'd butt 'em and let them gap on their own. I bet you get a nice, even 3/16-inch everywhere. - If you gap them, add 3/16 to whatever the gap is.
@myfixituplife thanks! I've been butting them and I do think they will shrink once they dry out.
@@juanbenavides182 Yup. Butt 'em. Some will fail and shrink lengthwise. I've seen it, but have never been called back for it. - No miters.
well you keep on building them the way you like. Myself I use a Camo tool which gaps the boards uniformly and you don't see any screws.
I will. If you're using a Camo tool and wet Southern Pine, your gaps are about 1/2-inch. Might no be able to see screw heads under tables and chair and outdoor rugs, but you can see the mud under the deck. - And maybe it's OK, bit I don't see how Camos resist cupping.
How big will a 2mm gap get after the deck boards have shrunk?
We’re imperial over here and may use different species of treated lumber, so I’m going to bale out on answering you. What species are you building with? What’s the moisture content when you get it?
@@myfixituplife 5/4x6 Southern Yellow Pine PT. Had Home Depot deliver 71 boards. Some boards were wetter than others therefore I used 2 mm shims. I haven't tested the boards for moisture content.
Where do you build? I also use PT SYP, but I'm probably 1,000 miles close to the mills than you are. - If you're getting lumber from a big box, there are likely returned pieces in your delivery. I source at a lumber yard and they don't accept PT returns. Everything is the same MC when it gets to me so I don't have to fuss with it. Slam and jam, baby.
@@myfixituplife northeast by Philadelphia. Lumber from home depot sucks. Not sure why I thought their PT decking would be any better 🤣🤷♂️.
As someone with 40 years experience, you can never predict how much they will shrink, and 1/8" is not enough. Even 1/4" a lot of tree debris and leaves will get caught. I leave an 1/8th inch, and end up with 1/4-3/8" but even 1/2" is fine, and is what I try to do on my own decks.
I'm in 30. I'm also in a number of Facebook groups with deck builder who think their sh++ don't stink. They post pictures of PT decks with miters all over the place. They 100%look awesome when the leave. But two weeks later...forget it. - I also work alone and am a fiend for saved steps. The PT I get gaps 3/8 all day and I have to do nothing. Nothing is faster than something. - Still, 40-years is beast mode. Keep hammerin'. I'm happy to follow along. Chime in any time
You can sort of predict how much they Will shrink, just measure the moisture!
1/2" is toe stub city!
@@myfixituplifeThe building trade is the same in England..full of smart arse dickheads.. every one better than the last...keep smashing it 🙌
Not building a dock. 2 x 6 decking. Toenail to but side-by-side you indeed every single time will get 1/8" shrinkage with fresh PT pine. Will leave a uniform gap. A half inch is way to excessive. Just enough for a child to get some fingers caught or someone to get a toe caught + aesthetics!
I finished cap should never be wider than a #2 pencil.
I'm near Chicago and the weather swings wildly that you cannot install like this. When it rains alot the 5/4 wood swells shut and puddles appear, you have to gap the boards. when its dry for a week or so, i maybe have 3/16" gaps.
With Southern Pine? I'm near Philadelphia and your weather on the whole is probably more extreme than ours but we get the same swings.
Wouldn't they swell again when wet and make it so there is no gap
They will for sure. All decking, even composite, does. But they'll never swell to full moisture content. That's the entire point of this method.
@@myfixituplife composite decking doesn't absorb moisture or swell when wet. it expands and contracts to temperature changes but always requires a gap. I think the issue is that people want a gap even during the rainy season.
@@myfixituplife You are wrong. IF the board is dryer when you put it in and it get wet then it will expand to father then when you put it in. Proven fact in the building trades groups. Good composite will not swell in moisture the cheap junk that is just glue and press wood will. And no not all decking will swell. Mine doesn't swell at all and it barely expand and contract either. I have aluminum decking. IT is one of the only one that doesn't get hot when the sun it beating on it.
Question. If the timber is going to shrink, then besides the fact the timber isn't treated to a standard I would call treated, why are you using two screws per joist? As each board shrinks, this will result in stress in the boards and possibly cause splitting. Why not one screw either centre or towards an edge, and put more in after the board has shrunk?
First, we're definitely on different continents with different criteria. But in the case here, we get PT Southern Pine. Saturated. There is no direction this is going other than smaller. It's also a 5 1/2-inch wide board. A single center screw wouldn't hold it down and it'd cup.
@@myfixituplife So not chemically treated? In that case, indeed it would shrink. Is it likely to expand again, or is that taken care of by painting/sealing?
And when it dry's out they tend to warp and push against each other and initiate movement throughout the deck.
A gap will allow the deck floor to move individually.
So i repair is needed it will allow the new board fit with fighting the old boards.
When it's dry, they contract and remain right where they are.
That doesn;t make nay sense at all - as they dry they shrink, moving away from each other so how would they push against each other?
What tool is he using to hold the boards tight as he screws?
That's a FSlex impact driver with 5 amp-hour battery. Thing is a monster.
@@myfixituplife no the other thing that pulled the board to the side
I can confirm this. I recently built my uncles deck this way with heavy "wet" boards and butted them all together. Now that it's dried out a few weeks later it has excellent gapping
Outstanding!
@@myfixituplife Like a farmer in his field...🙏💓😊
I'm currently doing a DIY project. I'm replacing the deckboard and reusing the foundation. I've been told to butt the boards up tight, some people DIY content creators say gap them. I live in Maryland, its hot & humid here in the summer and cold in the winter. My deck is about 20 inches off the ground. I havent fastened the boards down yet. I'm cutting them, placing them down to let them dry out. Then I'm going to paint them on both sides. Thanks for posting.
I've built in MD. I'm not that far away from you in PHL. - I've also built "decks" that I've put in the ocean as swim floats and docks on Cape Cod. - But 'em. - They'll shrink and look great. - For my re-skins, I tape the joists to cover the old holes.
When you buy pressure treated wood, you have no way of knowing how much it may have already dried out. Perhaps you can weigh the boards. Last time I bought pressure treated lumber to redo my old deck, the boards varied considerably in weight. I decided to simply lay them down without attaching them. Only after they dried did I screw them in.
You're not the only one to bring this up. If that works for you, terrific. But no contractor alive can stay in business doing this. And those boards were twisted AF.
Variability of grain density in each board changes the weight a bit too. Cant you get a moisture meter that doesnt stab the wood?
What if your doing a deck in the winter and the boards don’t have much moisture? Same with hanging interior wood doors with the reveal
Good question. Answer is there is the same amount of moisture in wet Southern Pine year round. The moisture doesn't come from the ambient air, it comes from the treatment process. I've gotten bunks in the winter that were frozen solid.
So this is the guy who's decks I have to keep rebuilding.
Yeah, that's me. You must be Quantum Man or something because mine only last 30-years or so.
You must be the guy that keeps breaking all the children's toes.
😂😂😂😂😂
he clearly doesnt need you lmao
You have to rebuild every deck ever built
Genuine question though, what happens to the wood when it gets rained on? Are you saying the moisture content at the moment of fitting is now than the timber can take in a 2 week wet spell?
Exactly. The material arrives from the lumber yard with a moisture content so high (I'd have to say 20%, maybe higher) that environmental conditions aren't such that it could swell back up and close the 3/8-inch gap it dries to. Heck, this was years ago, but we used to build swim floats like this and throw them in the ocean and the boards gapped.
Actually your gap size should take a couple of things into account. First is debris buildup from things like surrounding tree leaf & seed litter. So many forget to account for this simple, yet, most important aspect to keep from creating debris buildup which creates moisture issues & eventually contributes to rot. I also totally agree with the comments on using a cats claw or other tools that might tear up or score the wood surface in manner contributing to rot. Smooth wood vs. rough surfaces shed water more readily. With that said, if your gaps are not large enough debris can actually get easily stuck becoming wedged & at times extremely difficult to remove, contributing to moisture buildup & rot. Things like leaf & seed stems are notoriously problematic, even with blowers, brooms, & pressure washers…
Second is to account for zoning & whether there are impervious surface considerations. Gap sizing is sometimes taken into account in allowances to drop square footage impervious calculations on a site, with gaps large enough sometimes allowing for lowered square footage for impervious surface totals & thus allowing you to develop more area for construction if needed. This is, however, totally dependent on local codes & their interpretation.
I appreciate all your observations. I also appreciate that you're civil and for all the "you're dumb" dummies listening, listen to this guy. - That said, I politely disagree. - Debris build-up is a maintenance issue. There are a million variables, But if you have a 100-year old Doug Fir over your deck shedding needles 24/7, you need to blow the deck off when you mow your lawn. I'm remodeling a deck right now with similar conditions and it's like it's raining on me all day. A sewer grate would get clogged. - Ground contact PT does rot, but it takes decades. - As for zoning, I hear you. I'm not sure gap sizing is a contributing factor. I think it's an either/or: A deck is impervious. A deck isn't impervious. At least that's my experience. - Either way, thank you. Please chime in any time.
Should they also be installed bark-side down as this board is? /s
That wisdom has been handed down for decades. Only thing is, it's not accurate. Grain orientation has nothing to do with cupping. Pick the best side, face it up and fly.
I've been in the trades for 25+ yrs. Always gap your boards! Installing them tight will result in improper/irregular gapping and cause more moisture problems, cupping/warping.
Where are you in the trades? What're you working with? And how is it possible you don't know wet wood contracts?
I'm primarily in remodeling and building. There are many tools available that even for wood installation have a preset spacing tool, it's a toenail application. Camo tool, kreg are two examples. Putting the boards tight isn't guaranteed you get equal spacing. No two boards will shrink the same. It's better to have a 5/16 gap instead of inconsistencies. Plus certain codes require you to gap your boards 👍
@@erichilyard3565 either this guy lives in the desert, or he is trolling for clicks and its working. There are lots of internet fools now saying the wrong thing just for views and comments.
@@erichilyard3565I mean, if you're using a camo screws you need a gap just to get the screws in.
How would gapping the boards make the gaps more consistent? With your logic then not gapping the boards should have the same effect. Think about it, if you gap the boards 1/32", you're saying gapping the boards 1/2" instead will somehow mysteriously make the gaps more consistent as they dryout?
Can ya do the whole deck in ground contact pressure treated lumber?
@@ahilbilyredneksopinion Technically, yes. I’ve resurfaced decks where the lumber has been buried for 30-years. However, if there’s a way you can lay a few inches of gravel, I highly recommend it.
The end grain of this board is upside down, you should always put the arch up
Sorry dude, that's a myth. Choose the best face side and run with it.
@@myfixituplife it’s no myth brother, one it cups and traps water two the edges become uneven because the curl up
In my experience thats not a rule that can be adhered to. Often times there is damage on the boards. You have to put the best side up, otherwise there would be far too much waste . Also, to my understanding, "bark side up" is preferred for decks that don't get a lot of sun and therfore stay moist. If they are getting sun and dry out they will cup upward. .
@@timbarry5080if you lay them with the crown oriented properly. They wont cup to hold water.
They may still cup but the center will be high so the rot causing water will run off.
@@myfixituplifeapparently you have 30 years experience of doing it wrong. If you believe this is a myth.
do you prefer the gap look? or solid
Gapped all day. Install them tight, as they dry, the gaps form.
I would never put them on tight. Use a nail for a spacer. About 1/8. They will dry out and shrink but never will be too tight
They'll never be too tight doing it like this and I don't have to mess around with nails and spacers.
Hell no, always tight. If I didn't make them tight I'd have 1/4" spacing, I put my decking tight tight and end up with a nice 3/32 gap.
@@myfixituplife BS your just lazy if you get a dryer board and space tight and it gets wet it will be to tight. Think yoiu really need to go back and talk to some good builders and lumber some lumber companies and get yourself set straight.
How about dried redwood? I just built and did Not gap. Should I go back and redo?
Dry material should be gapped. But redwood and cedar are still "wet". I'd suggest you wait and see.
@@myfixituplife good thing I went back a week later boards were beginning to crack, 3 broken screws. Ended up gapping 1/4 took us 4 hour’s and 760 screws out and back in. But we will get lots of snow and rain. Didn’t want to risk 1500 in redwood love to send you a picture of it and IT’s view. Will be putting a wall tent on it. Was just to prevent the drafts coming under neath the floor. Thank you 🙏
@@scottpierson7495 That’s a lot of work. You clearly have integrity. Nice job.
Ive heard both ways which is confusing as a greenhorn homeowner but im redoing an old deck with original joist so I wanna keep from the gap minimal to prolong the joist long as possible
Hopefully, I can help. Pressure treated Southern Pine arrives at your doorstep at something like 25% moisture content. This is by design. Slam them tight and it is INEVITABLE they'll dry out to a 3/8-inch gap. Also--and we have another video on this--DO NOT miter your top caps. For the same reason--moisture leaving the wood changes its shape--the miter will open at the bottom and close at the top.
An advice worth exactly what I paid for!
OK. And, who cares?
I'm looking at these comments and beginning to think that people are getting different decking boards in different areas. I built a deck in South West Michigan with pressure treated lumber and butted the boards tightly. After a season there was plenty of gap between the boards. I bought the lumber from a big box store and had moisture being squeezed out of the boards when the screws went in. After two seasons there was more than a quarter inch gap and the deck looked very nice. Is it that we're getting different boards with different moisture content from state to state?
1- Thank you for being a curious human being. 2 - I get the same feeling, but I'm also about 99% circumspect because of how the "information" is being communicated. 3 - You probably get the same Southern Pine I do. As does, as I understand it, everybody East of the Mississippi, give or take. - Sure, this might not work for international audiences, but for the gajillions of board feet just in my region, it works all day. Thank you for contributing. Lots of people can learn from you.
I think it best to still gap. My neighbour didn’t do that a few years ago and had a low ground level deck. He is having some issues. My deck is 2 to 3 feet off grade but was completely sealed off due to animals burrowing under. I ended up having to replace all the boards and also installed joist tape and then added some west ward facing vents with metal rodents screening on the east and west sides to let the deck breathe
Yes, a deck needs to have some air flow. Still, I'm surprised. I've built docks and swim floats like this and thrown them in the ocean and gaps still opened up.
Are you gonna put in a 3/4” piece on the end there?
No. This is somewhere in the middle of the deck, aka "the field". This deck board breaks on 1/2 a joist. A new deck board continues the course.
💯 correct!! My deck has this type of wood and once the wood dries out, the gaps are perfect at 1/8” to 3/16”. Also, sink your screw 1/8” below the surface or they will protrude once the wood is dry.
With you all the way. And yes, just a slight countersink and you're good to go. Keep up the good work.
Never sink screws that deep, rainwater will collect in the countersink and hasten decay. Leave them just flush with the surface.
Install hidden fasteners. No issues. Rows of screws look terrible
Built many piers decked, many piers, which used pressure treated 2x6, on the sun they will shrink so we never used a gap unless had to square up a side, bang a 20 penny nail between each board to bring it around some. Comes back a month later or couple months maybe there’s always a little gap
You, sir, sound old school. I hand-banged many a deck (they were docks and swim floats we put in the ocean, but same idea). The hand-drive toe nail is a thing of utter beauty.
Do not follow this guy’s instructions in the northwest we get enough rain to where the heck expansion during the winter will rip the deck apart
I've ben hoping somebody from the PNW would chime in and offer some input. We use high moisture content Southern Pine. It dries and shrinks leaving a 3/8-inch gap that never fully closes back up, even with snow. - I know your framing lumber is incised fir, but what about the decking? PT fir too? Cedar? - All those would need gaps.
Another keyboard warrior you could have said , depending on the area you're from. I'm from south California where they will shrink 1/2 inch at least baking in the sun .
@@myfixituplifeI’m putting on cedar in the PNW (Idaho) next week. So gap? I think so, would love experienced opinions.)
@trick58 always gap with decking. In washington State, not doing so will have tremendous consequences. I can only imagine it's the same in idaho
I built a ton of decks in Vancouver and we always gapped 1/16 or 1/8 and never had any problems. I moved to Ontario and all decking is installed right like this and exactly as described, the decking shrinks but doesn’t expand back over the content that it came with so therefore doesn’t over swell causing cupping or cracking.
If it’s not a species related detail then it must be the environmental moisture in the PNW means the wood doesn’t shrink as much as opposed to here where it will dry out much more.
Just my thoughts on this.
My first was installed like this. Being outside, they never dried out and cupped and held water and slush. Second deck, they wanted to do it that way. It never dried out like I told them. Collected water like I told them it would. Told them to get their asses back there and do it the way I wanted in the first place. Alls good now. Problem is, builders think it srinks but never go back to look. Meybe in Arizona, but Im in the northeast.
It shrinks significantly in Minnesota.
Cupping is because the installed the boards upside down.
We're in PA and this deck--and every other one I've installed--gaps to 3/8-inch in about 2-weeks. Never swells closed again.
Cupping is a myth. It seems like it makes sense, but it doesn't. I checked this deck this week and the boards are all flat.
How old is that deck?
Mark - Found you after reading an excellent article in JLC about resurfacing a deck. Great info!
I was impressed with the Acre composite decking, but have determined to use PT SYP due to the cost delta. For reference - I live in OKC, OK. Retired boiler salesman with good DIY skills.....and lots of good contractor friends.
Here's my question(s) for you:
1) I am considering using the Camo edge fastener that places a 1/16" gap. Your thoughts....?
2) Have you used the Camo Pro-X1....with 2-3/8" Camo screws with PT SYP...?
3) Does edge screwing with this tool change the edge shrinkage...?
Greatly appreciate your content and sharing your experience with those that have ears to hear!
You, sir, are a machine. I very much appreciate your kind words.- Let's get yo your points. I could not be a bigger fan of PT SYP. I don't know your climate well, but I'd follow the local Sherwin Williams store recommendations for sealing it. - I love Camo for composite (stable across the grain AT install), but for PT--soaking at install, at least here--not on your life. - I use #10 by 2 1/2-inch Spax HcrX face screws for my 5/4 decking. - There is no force in the world that changes the movement of moisture out of the wood. - This is the same for top caps and miters. They'll look smokin' when you install the, but 2-weeks later the heel opens and the toe closes. You can drop coins in there. - Check out my video on stepped miters. - I hope this helps. Let me know.
- th-cam.com/video/aidLfCXSd8k/w-d-xo.html
- th-cam.com/video/kAChBcgxZqw/w-d-xo.html
@@myfixituplife
Mark -
HCR-X face-screws it is! Glad I asked.
I used your Amazon link to buy (10) boxes of HCR-X screws.....gonna need about 6000 to do my entire deck, but this will get me started. My deck is low to the ground (due to door elevations), so no railings needed, but your step miter is very sharp looking, I will use it to picture frame the perimeter.
Whether its decking or door casings, crappy mitering really bugs me !
Great tip !!
Speaking of machines...
Thanks again......Mike
You are 100% correct. Those deck boards shrink a lot over time . If you gap them they will get even bigger. And yes i use a chisel to move them over. Looks like you came from the same school of building that I did.
Yessir. All day. Keep up the good work.
I see you gapped your words
And driving a chisel into the edge of board doesn’t leave a hole where moisture can penetrate and deteriorate it over time?
@@freddymax5256it does. Leaves a hole to trap water and dirt
I wonder what the gap looks like now. Curious to see the difference.
It's 1/4-inch. I've been there.
That chisel is creating a great spot for the rot to start.
Not. No it isn't.
Uofudavid
You are the kind of people no one wants at the job site.
I know a few like you, they claim to know everything about everything, and when I check their work. It looks mediocre.
@@myfixituplife Actually it is causing a place for water to sit and get into the lumber. IF you ever have tore off old decking you see that the only place that is bad is where the screw went in to the lumber. Your lazy and don't want to us the deck board straighten they have out now. Do it right or don't do it at all and don't saw things that are not right. Your a hack at best.
@@myfixituplife Sorry, but he's right on that point - you've just penetrated the upper surface of the joist RIGHT where moisture is going to get deposited
@@somenteasescrituras4064 He didn't claim to know everything he's just making a solid point. Life is much better when you're not bitter and open to being wrong sometimes 😜
Does PT lumber look different back east?
100%. What wood decking do you use?
Always gap your boards a minimum of three eights inch. You will end up with approximately half inch cap which is perfect. Let dirt debris and especially small leaves and twigs go through.
Absolutely not. Tight as possible will get you 1/4-3/8+ once dried.
Wet PT SY pine gaps 3/8s by doing nothing. Where I build, a 1/2-inch gap may not be noticed, but it's not the product I want to deliver.
Yup.
Here in england I install with a 10mm 3/8” gap as with amount of rain we get that gap will become 6mm - 1/4” in no time. If pulled in tight where does the expansion have room to go.
Using a flooring joist clamp you can easily lay, space and clamp 4 - 5 boards at a time without damaging the board edges breaching the dipped anti rot coat.
Hey England! You certainly do have a higher dew point year round than us, give or take, and even though we're on a parallel with Lisbon, you're way milder. What species of lumber are you using. What are the chemical retention levels? What's the chemical? Is it rated for ground contact? Can we discuss this in a pub over a pint?
@@myfixituplife mainly softwood as customer wants to keep cost down. Sometimes hemlock and on occasion composite recycled plastic/timber mix but with its hardiness and straightness its expense.
Using joist clamps and clamping rows at a time with a few temporary bearers secured though the gaps to keep them down to stop then lifting during clamping the process doesn’t take that much longer really
I always advise do not paint with decking paint as it look great when done but looks tatty 2 years later and the you have paints it each year. Far better to let it weather a year than when good and dried out coat with a clear or tinted wood preserver as if soaks in as opposed to painting with minimal absorption and the remainder sitting on top waiting be worn off.
I’d never fix direct to ground and the boards can never dry out.
I’ve installed over existing concrete slabs but always on composite or plastic 2 x 2 bearers to keep them out the puddled water. Can get away with 2 x 1 if run off is good but often not if DIY install. Best way is to veiw after rain and see how big/deep the puddles are.
I set em butt tight and spray about 75 rnds of .223 for drainage, never works but its fun and the customer never complains...to my face. 😊
Drainage matters How you get there is up to you! Aesthetics are personal.
Awesome comment 👏👏
What issue did he create by making that slot in the board with his chisel? Seems like a nice spot to hold moisture and rot out faster.
You think a nick in a 2x10 is going to cause rot? That's not how rot works.
@@myfixituplife a nick? He hammers that thing in and then bends it while in there. If you cut a pressure treated board you are supposed to treat the cut edge. So now he has made a hole down into the wood. A top part as well. So water has no where to escape. Water sitting in a hole in wood will start to rot the wood. That’s how rot works
Should I install boards that are too short as well?
I say to be thorough. Do some too short, others too long. Leave a few out while you’re at it.
😂
I saw that too
I've been installing decks for about 159 yrs now , I pressure treat all my own lumber that I grow in my back yard.
Yes you do! You should look in the Facebook comments for the "Losers and Virgins" guy. You'd be fast friends.
Using copper-naphalate I hope.😎
@@chrisperrien7055 Not with SP. It’s treated through and through.
What length screws is ideal
He puts they tight so his high heels don’t get caught between the boards.
Can't have our stilettos (or chair legs) caught.
Depends on the initial moisture content and region your installing the boards in!
Sure it does. It may depend on where you live, too. So check with your supplier--not me. - On the other hand, I've built stuff with PT lumber for decades. It's all wet. My supplier literally calls it "wet" on the invoice. - The chemical in it is water borne...Anyway, ALL wet wood shrinks, not just SOME wet wood. Come on.
If I build my own stuff, I use 2x6 lumber spaced 1/8 inch, screwed at an angle from the side (pre drilled) .
Prolly works great.
My neighbor did his like this earlier winter. Can’t wait to see it in the summer.
I’m interested in all the details from species of lumber to location and climate to supply chain_
I feel like this really depends on the climate as well, also how come no joist tape?
Climate, no. Joist tape on PT? In the West, yes.
If the deck is low to the ground, maybe 2' or less under the joists I would recommend leaving a gap.
Am I the only one that's replaced old decks that all the PT boards were swollen shut?
You can't be the only one. When the industry changed from CCA to whatever alphabet soup it became going on 20-years ago, those boards didn't behave like CCA or how it behaves today. Between 20-years going by and the chemical change, it sounds about right that you'd be replacing those decks.
I use a medium size Phillips head screw driver to gap in Central NY. Only built 4-5 decks (all for myself) but they all turn out fine and yes even with a wider than most gap they still collect leaves and such.
You've easily got a 1/2-inch gap. No good for me. Gathering media from the trees is a maintenance issue.
@@myfixituplife I just measured my gaps on a deck I built last Sept or Oct and I'm at a consistent 3/8". Even if they grow to a full 1/2" over the next year I'm fine with that. Makes for good drainage and plant material easily flushed out with a garden hose. There will be no mold or moss growing in my gaps.
We build a lot of decks in Winnipeg, MB. We always leave a 1/8” space. All the decks still look great.
You're way west and north of me. What kind of decking do you use?
@@myfixituplife our weather here fluctuates so much. We go from -35 degrees celsius to plus 30 degrees Celsius. The lumber is also hit or miss. Some pieces are really wet like you said and others are really dry.
@@qualityonebuildingsolution802 Interesting. Our weather fluctuates, of course but the lumber-at least from my supplier-isn’t in their yard long enough to even have the top boards on the bunk drier than the ones from inside. It’s all high moisture content PT Southern Pine. What species do you get up there?
@@myfixituplife I'm calling bs on the moisture content the center will always be wetter then the outside. Moisture meter will prove this. Just a known fact. Only way it will not be is if it comes right out of the treatment place to the jobsite the same day. Once it hit the outside dryer air and its in bunks the outside starts to dry and inside is wet still.
I’m up the northeast.
If it’s in the heat of summer, I run the 5/4 all tight when installing.
It it’s in the cold winter I space them with a 8D common.
Been working this way for me for decades
Interesting. An 8 isn’t a giant nail. And I have broken many a frozen board off the stack. Good call.
Spot on. Our deck in FL is PT Southern Pine, butted up tight. Perfect gap once it dried.
ALL DAY!
I always gap them with a speed square they will shrink, but expand a few year later. I just replaced a 15 yr old deck that failed the boards would not 6 water to pass through
So you've got somewhere around a 5/8-inch gap?
I like to use a couple nails into a cedar shingle that I can space the board out quickly and perfectly. Putting it tight and expecting it to shrink is not the answer. Unless there is no trees around your house for about 100 ft, And you do not get snow. I would perhaps try your theory in Arizona.
My theory is not a theory. All wet lumber shrinks. Every mile of PT decking I've gotten for decades is 25% moisture content or thereabouts. Setting the screw squirts out water. And all wet wood shrinks. Just like the miters you think look awesome when you leave. 3-weeks later, those heels have opened about a mile. - I do like your trick with the shingle though. This would be ideal for, coincidentally, a cedar deck. Cedar ships green, but it is just green, not pressure cooked like Southern Pine is.
Arizona, if some is (a) decking at all and (b) using wood, they're using incised Douglas Fir, which is a different animal.
How much you expect timber to shrink? Each board might shrink a couple of mm across the grain. And unless your timber is absolutely soaking wet it wouldn't shrink anyway, its outside, the moisture content will constantly fluctuate.
3/16-inch each board, each side for a total of 3/8-inch. The wood shows up saturated, dries and contracts on its own. I doubt we use the same material and am pretty sure your moisture content is different than mine. Maybe not, Southern Pine is shipped internationally.
Always pre gap the wood, otherwise the boards will rip out if they do happen to swell. Boards move. I've installed many decks, and many hardwood floors. The difference is climate and moisture controll.
No, not at all correct.
These boards will not “happen to swell”. They WILL swell, they just won’t swell to out-of-the mill moisture content. Installing them tight means they contract, leaving ample room for them to swell without making a gap so large it eats chair legs and the wheels of the grill fall in between them.
@@joeadorjan1206 I agree. Also, flooring expands and contracts as a membrane. You leave the gaps around the perimeter, so the whole thing has room to move as a unit.
@@myfixituplife flooring (inside).decking outside. Flooring one piece. Decking 1000s of pieces. WTEF are you talking about. SMH
@@myfixituplife Not if it has been drying for more then 5 minutes lumber start to dry right out of the treatment process and the inside lumber of a bunk is wetter then the outside and will not have the same moisture content. Any good treatment place will tell you this and person ever buying PT lumber will know the closer to the center the wetter the lumber is in a bunk. The outside could be about dry and then inside is like you just pulled if from a pond.
We've installed them tight for years and we build in southeast Georgia..and correct they create a gap when they dry ..
Nice. Those deck boards you're using were probably grown and milled not far from where you build. Good stuff.
It all depends on location and if the deck is covered or not in my opinion. It’s definitely easier to not set the gap but if the deck is uncovered the gap should be larger to allow for debris to fall through.
This lands in a personal preference zone. This deck is in a wood area--not directly under trees, but lots of leaf debris close--and it's not clogged. Hitting the deck with a blower from time to time might be a solution, too.
@@myfixituplife I have to disagree with that. There’s not a one size fits all for putting down deck boards some situation’s warrant more of a gap. But as I said, this is my opinion
Been there done that. :) This installing method doesn't allow hidden screwing. Thx 🙏
Correct. It doesn't. But hidden fasteners aren't really hidden, they're just somewhere else. Not that I don't like them, I do. Using hidden fasteners with PT will yield a 1/2-inch + gap. Too wide for me, bro.
I made a flatbed for a pickup truck. I used a nail as a spacer. After a year there was like 1/2" between them.
100%. Same as my trailer...ack...30-years old...the guy who works on it for me wasn't even born when I bought it...Perfect for tires and trash an sittin' in the yard.
I know a local company here in pa who is getting there wood from a manufacturer in Wisconsin, they make they’re own pressure treated wood that’s kiln dryer after being treated
I'm in SEPA and, yeah, KDAT is the acronym. I can't get it in the quantities I need. Moreover, last time I checked, it's not thermally treated (that decking is out there and seems pretty bullet proof) or rated for ground contact. It *should* work. But unless the deck is maintained "ground" gets to the decking. It starts as leaves and organic matter and then becomes "ground".
I use ring shank nails. Screws end up snapping they don't have enough give for the way that would moves expands contracts.
I believe you. Ring shank nails are beast mode. I used to hand nail screw shanks once upon a time. - These, however, are not a typical deck screw. #10 x 2 1/2 Spax, I use them (with plan review approval) in metal hardware, too. They also work like Tapcons.
@@myfixituplife I'm not trying to say anything bad about your skills. Just here in Michigan the lumber will expand, and contact enough that the screws will break in under 5 years. My experience. That's why I use ring shank nails unless it's a composite deck board. I prefer TimberTech, but either way it's a softer deck board.
@@myfixituplife by the way I like this kind of discord. Being able to talk to another professional about the things that we do and why we do it.
@@myfixituplife by the way I really don't mean you any disrespect this is just my experience and I'm trying to share with you. I do like your videos you are good people.
Installed them nice and tight last summer. This summer it’s been hot without any rain, and some of the gaps are good 1/2”. Keep ‘em tight boys and girls.
Tight is right. Nice work. We sure could use some rain around here too.
PT up in Canada is so wet, I also never leave gaps as when it dries has the perfect gap
100%. Are you in the East? Are you getting Southern Yellow Pine?
@@myfixituplife Yes in Ontario and it is yellow pine
Man where I live and do decking alot as well as maintaining said decking for my clients this would not work lol. I always gap with a nail or decking screw and it leaves a large enough gap once fully dried that the basswood seeds will pass through or just need to be pushed through with a painters tool quick. Somone had built a deck before I started doing work for a client and I had to tear apart their deck due to rot from leaf litter and those seeds being trapped because the initial builder never gapped it. This is in minnesota though we have terrible weather for rot tons of rain humidity and varying temperatures and tons of leaf litter.
Your weather is way more extreme than ours for sure. What species of PT do you get? I'd assume Southern Pine. - The more I hear of decks being jammed up with needles and the like, the more I think decks should be blown off when the lawn is mowed. It takes a long time for organic matter to wedge in.
@myfixituplife yeah southern pine is pretty much what you will find around here and as for the organic stuff getting in there is alot of basswood trees in the area and they drop a ton of seeds that are like 1/4inch or so with a soft shell on them that easily breaks and composts so in that area it's best to have like a 3/8in gap when it's done drying and ready to stain so you don't have to dig tons of brittle seeds out in between boards. I also have to clean the gutters each fall before I finish up in that area and again normally in the spring again lol it's way out in the woods lol.
Depending on the grain of the treated timber the gaps will end up varying in width. I only use kiln dried decking or a composite material.....and use hot dipped galvanised screws......
Hot dipped are for real. These are Spax screws, # 10 x 2 1/2-inch. The coating is rated just below stainless steel and they're 10,000 times easier to work with because they're not soft. I can't really get KDAT decking because of the volumes I'd have to buy it in, but that's a good call on your end too.
This depends on your geographic area and how wet the wood is , this works sometimes not all the time
In theory, I guess. But the entire supply chain, as I understand it, is set up for wet wood to arrive on site and gap itself naturally. I don't know of a single lumber yard that keeps PT around long enough for it to get dry and still be in business.
Theyre set up to deliver wet wood to match the market. They won’t wait around for it to dry out as wood not moved doesn’t bring in $$.
CCA (chromium copper arsenate) treatment makes the wood harder and more brittle when dry as compared to untreated. It does the same to utility poles.
Want a great looking deck? Buy the lumber ahead of time, store it covered lightly for awhile to let it dry and then put it together.
I've never used lumber that is soaking wet. 2 weeks in the shed and it's a lot lighter to handle and the screws won't pull thru it. I gap it 1/8"and never had it close up or open to more than 1/4", which is not excessive.
I'm not sure where you get not soaked PT. I believe you, but I've never seen it. I'm also not moving a deck package around in my or anybody else's yard to to dry. Besides, it wouldn't dry meaningfully. If your system works, have at it.
Built tons of decks. Cedar, PT always leave an 8" gap . No problems.
AN 8-INCH GAP! - Kidding. I believe you. - I leave a 16-d nail for cedar (that's how old I am by the way; it also works). PT where I work...spacing is a waste of time. - I have little doubt you do good work and care for your customers. The last thing I'm gonna do is harp on 1/8th. - Keep 'em comin'
It may gap itself where you come from but in my own deck in Scotland i made my gaps minimal and some of the boards ended up being so close together they never gapped and the debris in between boards made them retain their moisture content until I actually cleaned them. And mine is a South facing deck.
You just don't want to recommend stuff like that to people in my area because their decks will rot prematurely, no two ways about it.
It does work where I build and what I build with. What part of my accent gave you the impression I was speaking globally about all lumber everywhere?
Thanks for the info , you stay Bless 🙏🏽 and Safe 😇💯👵🏽
Thank you. Good luck
This may be sound advice but it really depends on the moisture content which can vary a lot.
In the umpteen decks I've build over decades, it hasn't really varied. I'm not everywhere and don't know everything. We used to build swim floats like this and throw them in the ocean and they gapped.
Best advice ever. I’ve built hundreds of P/T decks. Ensure what side of the board goes up first to prevent cupping and it’s much better to toe nail then face nail, but this is actually better with no gaps if the moister content of the boards are very obvious. Face nailing of a dryer board may result in squeaking once expansion & contraction occurs multiple times and some small splitting. But over all yes it is better to bring the. Boards together tight. 👍
Experience and knowledge for the win! Thank you.
Was that deck board short?
It isn’t.
Where your waterproofing on top of deck joists?
Some codes require it. Others don't. I regularly pull apart 30-year old decks with joists so in tact I can't get the fasteners out. - On re-skins I tape and for composite I tape because the wood is so visible through the decking gaps.
If that’s been stored outside in the damp wet then yes you can keep them fairly close, I’d never install them touching though unless they were soaking wet.
The pressure treated supply chain is a ballet of moisture saturation, storage and drying. Being stored outside (it's all stored outside) aint it.
yeah i don’t know i always leave a gap i’m in the midwest so weather is crucial here !
I hear you. We get all the weather, too here outside of Philadelphia. I get it. If it works for you, it works for you.
I gap this kind of lumber with a 2mm L bracket. I've notice it gives a nice 4-5mm gap in hot dry summer days.
What're the chances you're getting Southern Pine from the US? I know it's shipped internationally.
Is it common to install decks without knee pads?
Legit question. On the one hand, it depends on your knees. There's enough up and down decking that I'm primarily good--though I hauled 'em out today--without them. Listen to your body.
I live in the Midwest and I can say that after two years of a deck being down with covid era PT lumber...we just had to have ours redone to remove massive gaps. When first laid it was lovely 1/8 in gaps, but after the seasons...it opened up in some places to .5 to .75 in which is unsafe and ugly. The covid era wood of all varieties was VERY wet and of lower quality in general. It still sucks but its slowly getting better.
Just that you link Covid to your deck, no. Yes, there were interruptions in logging and other meta economic issues with a years log runway, yes. But the retention levels--to my knowledge--saw no changes.
My contractor neighbor taught me that 20 yrs ago. Works great!
0+.
Yeah, buddy!
Thanks for information
Happy to help.
My favorite part of the video was the aaaarg at the beginning. Sums up my experience in the construction industry
I hear that!
it really depends where you're building. where I live, It's super dry so we butt them tight, but if you did that out in the PNW they would swell and fuck things up, so you have to gap it
To be fair, this is PT Southern Pine and I'm in Philadelphia. 100% not PNW with Doug Fir PT, right? _ Excellent comments like yours that have actual information in them make me wistful for the days when I was a magazine editor and we could get opinions from builders all over the place. Please chime in any time. If there was a way to have an editorial board, I'd get you in there.