Rapier and Cloak sparring - Tom vs Nick
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 7 มี.ค. 2017
- The cloak is the one companion weapon to the rapier that we've never really spent any proper time on, that is about to change. Using the cloak alongside the rapier is commonly shown in a great many renaissance fencing treatise. It can be used to parry, to smother the weapon and blind the opponent. It is an interesting new addition to the arsenal.
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Ah yes, but what about duel weilding cloaks
OOOoooooOOOooooo spooky ghost
Triple wielding! You gotta wear a third one to intimidate the opponent with your awesomeness fashion sense!
It was so strong that they had to ban it in duels
It was so awesome only the last boss of the Dark Souls series was allowed to use it as a weapon. True story.
They call him rattail king
I imagine a 18th century duelist bringing his lucky blanket to the duel. XD
Blanky will keep me nice and warm while I fight this dude to the death! =3
You mean 17
or his lucky jacket
Lol
@DVGMC 18th century people were using small swords not sabres and sabres were only worn for cavalry use hangers and spadroon maybe broadsword for infantry
My three favourite comments
When's net and trident?
Can't wait to see rapier and lantern
What about beer bottle and chair?
Beer bottle and chair
Best combo ever
What about kimono and Katana?
Honestly i'd love to se these 3!
The first was used by gladiators. The second maily by security and the third is a classic bar fight weapon pairing
Personally I prefer the rapier and the double barrel 12 gauge.
#FrenchDoomguy
ah yess, the famous techniques by Capo Ferro 'then you shall parry his blade and execute him from point blank in the upper opening in 4th guard with thine boomstick'
I've never tried that one, but I'm quite partial to the ak47 and affixed bayonet combo historically done by Alexander the great. He's quoted as having said " hehe get fucked Persians"
Bloodborne
@CannonFighter29 do you mean the video or that Bloodborne doesn't have a rapier? Because reiterpallasch definitely counts
They were once laughed at for carrying "security blankets", who's laughing now?
I am, because this means Linus is actually a talented fighter.
But he don't got a rapier
im sure linus laid down a can of whoopass at some point in the series
It can be used as extra-defense against slashing cuts by wrapping it around the arm, as an improvised gambeson of sorts. It was very common in Latin America with ponchos during knife fights.
and in Europe against rapiers :)
Yes that is one method, the downside is you lose the length of material to swing, and the ability to throw. The European sources show a mix of both. One source for smallsword even shows wrapping the cloak around the lead arm for when facing sabre.
alhesiad i was also about to suggest that. though I think the style of usage would depend on weather the gauchos in question were using ponchos made of cotton, wool or leather, how much protection on the forearm they think they needed vs how much length n reach they could get out of the poncho. i think the wrapping also makes sense given that a facón is a much shorter weapon that a rapier. I must admit im totally ignorant of historical rapier fencing.
"Y eprésteme su atención;
me oirá relatar las penas
de que traigo la alma llena;
porque en toda curcustancia,
paga el gaucho su ignorancia
con la sangre de sus venas."
It's still common. The lowlifes in my city (Bogotá) fight like that a lot with knives and whatever cloth they can use to wrap around the arm... it's interesting to see how an "elegant" technique ended up like that
The Chronomancer There is nothing elegant whatsoever about people fighting with blades, especially not in actual combat(with real weapons).
No matter how "elegant" you think it was, the goal was always to poke a hole through the other person's body.... ideally rupturing their vital organs, causing them to die.
In a knife fight, the goal would obviously be to get a stab, or a good pressing cut against the opponent's face/neck.... or wherever you could safely(safe for you, not for them) land your blade.
So next is net and trident then ?
I think wide brimed hats with Ostrich feather over the fencing helmet works better for the time period. to see how that change the fencing.
The meta-game hasn't progressed that far, yet.
The staff of goondoff.
...THE two classic weapons of the Renaissance... next to Lightsaber of course...
BigHossHackworth. hahaha
I eagerly await rapier and lantern next.
Gives a whole new meaning to "cloak and dagger!"
that's actually where the term comes from :)
I really like the exchange at 4:37
A blanket for a blanket.
So did the opponents.
Thank you so much for doing this. I think you're the only ones to have shown this on youtube and I hope it catches on with more people. I hope you do more
I have to admit, HEMA sure can be classy at times and it's just as beautiful as what the East has. Keep up the good work and may HEMA prosper under people like you. Chers! :D
I completely agree. HEMA is classy with the rapier and brutish with long swords or flowery with sabers. I'm always wishing for a HEMA Club to spring up where I live, but it ain't happened. So I stay studying and drilling technique from different masters manuals. I may start my own club one day.
@@chadbroadhead6034 I have to drive an hour to get to my closest HEMA club. I saw rapier and cloak in the weekly email and thought what the hell is that?
so, this how rich people fought back in the day?
Yes, but I think the dagger was more common in the off hand for organised duels. The cloak might have been more of an impromptu self-defense thing, like if you're caught out in the street and your life is at stake, here's how you can use what you have to hand to give you an extra edge. It may have been used in some duels too, but blinding your opponent doesn't seem particularly honorable in that context. This sort of fighting reminds me of McBane's advice to throw whatever's in you pockets at your opponents face when attacked by "ruffians" to cover a "home thrust", there may be something similar at play here.
No rich people, a variety of people above the common labouring class. In the renaissance the wearing of swords became common for a great many men, that included the emerging middle classes, people such as merchants, teachers, butchers, artisans, etc. The rapier was one of the most common swords carried at that time.
It was used in a variety of ways, solo, with dagger, cloak, buckler, shield, a second rapier, all sorts.
Thanks for the detailed answers
McBane clearly didn't have the expense of a 24 month smartphone contract. He seemed much more interested in owning three or four good, dense, Nokia Bricks ;)
lancer D POCKET SAND!!
personally i've always wanted to see a fight in a movie or something where some renaissance duelist is caught without his rapier and fights using just the lantern and the cloak.
Lantern? Wouldn't that start a big fire?
Light the cloak on fire and whack em with it!
Cool! I was hoping someone would do a cloak and sword video. I was trying to explain the concept of cloak and sword/dagger fighting the other day, and it would have been much easier to refer to a video.
VeRamsey Dewey you’re talking about the video where you said to have used your shirt to beat a Krav Maga instructor and his rubber knife.that was a great speech on actual self defense. lately some of my students discovered that I’m a martial arts aficionado who knows some techniques, so they asked me about what to do when facing a knife, I told them about your experience in Argentina dealing with street assaults, and also reasoned with them on making them value their lives above money and objects. One of them argued the he wouldn’t give his phone with out a fight, thankfully he end up understanding it’s easier to get a new phone to survive a knife attack, more martial artist should discourage people from risking their lives over material possessions. I would like to encourage them to see your content, but unfortunately most of them barely speak English. Have you ever tried those same moves against Jordan and his crazy knife?
How about beer bottle and chair?
TBH, it's probably not a bad idea for self-defence purposes. You can get rubber prop version of all sorts, almost any everyday object you could think of.
I first sparred with a cloak and sword around 6 years ago, and let me tell you it's so tiring, leaving it wrapped around your arm Donald McBane style isn't so bad, but when you perform some cloak techniques over and over during a fight it can quickly ware you out. It doesn't look like it from the video, but if you try this out you will see it actually takes a lot of effort to fight like this for long periods of time.
I love to see how you guys seem to experiment and "play around" with different weaponsets... keep up the good work :)
its will be much more effective in real duel. sharp swords point can be caught and trapped by the fabric very easy. thus the coat provide very good defense as well as offense.
When Linus from Peanuts grew up and became a swordsman
Underrated comment
Im really glad for this !!! Keep on the surprises !
i vote pommel throwing practice next :D
To finish him rightly!
I'd love to see more exploration of this combo. Will you be going into more detail about how various masters instruct its use and maybe some demonstrations on technique?
Dude, awesome, I've been wanting to see how one of these fights would work
Brilliant nick: I've always wanted to see this demo!
I literally was just thinking of this an hour ago... Great video btw.
This is a great video. Street fighting really is all about using what you have at hand to your advantage. Throwing dirt in your opponent's face can be used just as or more effectively as a cloak, chucking rocks, whatever. It's probably arguable whether using a jacket as a means to defend your torso slightly by wearing it, or by taking it off and using it as an impromptu shield is better. Use whatever you have, though. One memorable movie scene for me was Lords of Dogtown, I can't remember the guy's name, but there's about to be a fight and he whips off his belt and wraps it around his hand, buckle out like a flail, in a very practiced motion. Know what you have on you, and use it. Even a wallet can act as a shield. Thick leather and a bunch of credit/debit cards will stop a knife thrust pretty effectively. I have never been in a street fight thankfully, but a guy was acting strange and I was ready when he pulled his knife, handful of rocks, and a beer bottle ready to smash over his head. My friends ran, but I stood my ground and backed off slowly. He backed off right quick, guess he didn't wanna get bottled if he tried me with his tiny pocket knife.
I like the sneaky hand grab for the sword tip to go with the cloaks :-) it makes me wonder how many fencers of old would have had slashes on the left palm from where they tried that trick :-D great fun and nice to see the cloaks, im surprised that they didn't evolve the idea to perhaps add cable or string in to the capes to make it like a whip :-)
Sometimes you're the cloak, sometimes you're the sword.
seems like they having fun time
Seems like there isn't as much masking of movement as I would expect to see from mastery in this technique. It looks like a very interesting method.
Weaponized carpets ?
F0DAA hahahhaa let me show you it's features!
Freaking Awesome spar
This is really cool.
Nice work, gents!!
this is outrageous
lol the guy with a smiley on his mask sure knows how to distract :D out of curiosity: how resistant are those masks? can they withstand a mighty thrust?
cool sparring by the way, really love the idea of adding improvised weapons, creativity is important in battle
p.s. pretty full house there, good for close quarters training
Seems like it would tire you out faster swinging a heavy cape for very little effect. Rolled up and tied at the ends then worn over the shoulder would give you the best protection.
My question would be how effective would it be to be wearing the cloak during combat. Set in a way where it getting snagged or caught by the opponent's blade would end with is getting removed rather than your neck being garroted
Awesome.
This looks genius, actually.
2:37 Did that guy in the back just drop and do pushups?
Yeah, they're probably having a free sparring hour. My Messer class is right after one and I use the hour to spar a little and do some warm up exercises.
Reminds me of zorro using his cape to surprise his enemies and hide his movements.
what purpose have these lashes? increase the risk of injurys?
About time! Can I ask what sources you use?
We will be working over Capo Ferro's cloak stuff in the next few weeks. Right now this was just a sparring bout from existed knowledge of bits and pieces read or worked on at events over the years, from Capo Ferro and Alferi mostly. It is the one part of CF I have never got around to teaching, so it will be a nice addition.
Improvised with a trench coat or long jacket , I can really see this being a close quarters stealth thing...
No. No! NO! You're supposed to wet the cloak, twist it around a bit and use it as a whip!
Truly more skilled than anyone I've met into the SCA light fighting. It would be awesome to someday face people with actual skill.
(Note: I like the SCA, however tge fighters learn very few things where I am, and they stick with what they know and don't bother to learn more.)
That's exactly what I have noticed. They generally use the same simplified system with all weapons and get pissed at anyone who uses the words "historical manual".
Am i the only one that was waiting for one to start using the cloak as a whip?
Can't wait to do cloaks
Cloak and Dagger with grappling. What a mess that would be.
Looks like the fencer on the right has a Leon Paul mask. Are those really safe for this kind of sparring? Do you guys do additional stress-testing beyond FIE requirements?
Leon Paul is our standard supplier, and yes, they are excellent for the job, but we do add back of the head protectors, and sometimes overlays as well. LP make some of the best masks in the world, after 15 years of heavy sparring with a hundred members in the club, we have never broken the mesh. The only time we usually replace is when the liners go.
and that is why Romulans love CLOAK AND DAGGER lol.
Im very confused about this whole situation...
So whats your conclusion ?
Better then nothing in your offhand or better have nothing ?
I'd like to do a lot more of it against a rapier of opponents first, as it is just not something we have ever put any time into, hard to give a fair assessment yet. In terms of using it wrapped to parry, it is solid. But to thrown and smother with, it comes across as risky to do, and risky to face, being an unpredictable tool.
he dodged the cloke?
I use the modern equivalent, a leather trenchcoat littered with safety pins. I dig the unconventional off hand. Up next? Rapier and lantern!
Does it count as a kill if you hit him with the blanket instead if the rapier?
No.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing What if is a wet blanket
It should count then
blankets..?? im thinking about whips..
0:58 Nice kick
Nice, southern style. The one guy did not want to though.
I'm imagining how cloak and rapier fencing may have started; a couple nobles in the street shouting curses at each other trying to slap the others sword away with a cloak or throw it in their face. XD
Not just nobles. The concept that the rapier is a weapon for high society is a horrible misconception that we have fought for a long time to get past. The rapier was commonly carried by anyone who could afford a sword, especially the middle classes.
Almost like Spanish bull-fighting...I wonder if the techniques are applicable such as hiding your weapon behind the cloak? I don't see them doing that at least.
2 cloaks vs 2 rapiers
That's actually kind off how bulls were fought in foot in the 16/17th century
Do these cloaks have weighted hems or are they 'standard' cloaks?
Standard, if not on the light side
I imagine the answer is no but do you think there's any merit in the idea that you could use the sword it's self to help you wrap the opponent's blade with the cloak and if so, at 5:56 the cloak on the right is draped over the rapier anyway, would that have been a good opportunity?
I wouldn't say so. With your own sword covered you are in a very dangerous spot. Your weapon is slow, and lacking threat to the opponent in any way, also really susceptible to a beat due to it being easy to target, and hard to recover.
I thought that might be the reasoning, thanks for the quick reply.
To be honest, a napkin would be enough to distract an opponent in most cases.
Pocket sand vibes
Rapier and Cloak is cool, but what about Gun and military soldier?
People in the 17th century took pillowfights too serious
Hey, that's interesting..
looks like "esgrima criolla"
My Spanish blood is happy at last
Hi fellow HEMA enthusiasts, I would like to ask a question about HEMA practice:
If I am nearsighted(L400 R250. I can distinguish everything of course, but it's just a bit blurry and my sense of distance is off withou glassets), could I still practice HEMA? Do you know any HEMA practitioner with this condition? And how do they deal with this?
It would depend how bad it is really. You say about glasses, lots of fencers wear glasses under fencing masks. How is your sight with the glasses on?
First of all, thx for reply :D So you can wear glasses under the mask then... My sight is perfectly fine with glasses on. I am planning to start a sabre class which focus on 19th century British sabre.
The Cloak: The original trolling side weapon!
The Cloak: The gentleman's troll weapon!
The Cloak: A weapon that makes even a master look silly!
Seriously though, this is pretty fun to watch, I guess.
¡¡¡ESPAÑA!!!
Estas como los brazileros.
I used to do this when I wanted to fend off bites from loose dogs, I'd only throw the cloth in order to grab the dog.
I didn't have the heart to give them a swift kick, so I just smacked em with a jacket or some cloth, and blocked their faces until I got far away from their homes, and they'd bigger off to dodge traffic until their owners woke ups to figure out their dogs were loose.
Watch Alatriste! There's the best cloak rapier fight ever there.
Rediarius .... Rediarius is cool .. but I think if you use a network..maybe it was even more efficient...
Where is rocket launcher and berserk pack?
Can't wait to see the rapier and pistol sparring.
How long have you been using the cloak for before this video? It's hard to tell what comes from the style and what comes from inexperience.
Rodney/Rosetta read description
I did. All they say is it's a new weapon in their Arsenal.
"The cloak is the one companion of the rapier that we've never really spent any proper time on, that's about to change"
pls.
That doesn't explain if this was their first ever sparring with them, or if they've had a week or so to practice before the video. No need to be so condescending.
it is obvious when you watch the video AND read the description. have a nice day.
You need a bigger place to train guys ! :D
Great video
Working on it, but space if limited and in high demand in Bristol. Average turnout is 25-30 at the Bristol club now. We make it work. Filming causes some issues as the fighters have to be so far back from the camera and hog the space.
aye I understand your difficulties... But honestly ??? What you're doing is amazing, both for teaching and promoting this sadly lost art
Academy of Historical Fencing holy shit you guys are in Bristol??
Yes, the club shown in the video is in Bristol (Bradley Stoke), our other club is in Newport, South Wales.
And for the next sparring session you will use wet towels folded into rat's tails as an offhand weapon?
Rock in a sack against cudgel user in a pit?
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Ms.Thott.290.2%C2%BA_080r.jpg
Does the guy on the right not have a blunt on his blade?!
Yes, it's just wrapped with silver tape so harder to notice. We use bullet casings, as they are much more reliable than rubber tips.
shouldn't one end be stuck to the shoulder?
It wasn't in well known fencing treatise of the period, such as Capo Ferro and Alfieri. We know this not just from the fact that the artwork is veru clear, but Alfieri also shows throws of the cloak to blind the opponent, as was attempted here.
@@AcademyofHistoricalFencing Very cool. Thanks for the info
I kinda pity the guys in the back the one with longswords I think
This may seem like an odd question, but where can I get one of those cloaks?
These are just heavyweight army wool blankets, which work quite well. I'd not want to risk using a properly made cloak, too much risk of damaging it.
Thank you, your response didn't show up in my feed for some reason :P
what this cloak used for ?? if its really fight and he use that cloak he will just easy cut the cloak and his hand without any problem
Various reasons as in the description. But no, the cloak is known to protect against cuts very well. When it is wrapped just a single time around the arm it will protect against the cut of the rapiers used in the video. Wrap a few more times and it will protect against heavier cuts too. Thick fabrics can provide a lot of protection against cuts.
so why they don't use shield ?i know it won't be same style but it will be more easy and even protect not only from rapiers but also from biger weapons so easy , also dose this cloak made from some special materials to protect the cut or just from normal materials ?l
Because the style of combat is for civilians, who did not carry shields about on a daily basis, but would often have a cloak. No not made from anything special, just thick wool.
Rapier edge grinds were very steep and while they could cut very deep at the tip - when propelled with a strong slash, once they lost momentum, they were comparatively poor cutters. As Qinag Luo says below, sharp rapiers could tear into thick fabric, and then unless properly edge aligned have trouble cutting any further.
So it seems throwing the cloak onto someone's not much of an impediment.
Perhaps sharp swords would be more likely to get stuck in the cloak?
tried to end him rightly using that cloak...alright- memes aside, I have never seen this style used before. very cool. i wonder if this style could be performed with cloaks worn. it woulf probably allow for easier manipulation of the cloak. more deception.
The problem with the cloak when worn is its just too close to the body for a useful defence. Generally the cloak as an offhand weapon is shown either carried in the offhand, or wrapped around it (less useful for swamping a blade, but more protection from cuts to the arm). There is one manual where it is shown wrapping the lead arm too, for a smallsword facing a sabre, to protect against cuts to the lead arm (the primary target for a sabruer vs smallsword).
Academy of Historical Fencing Ahh i see. That does make sense. Good work though. you two throw some good shots back and forth.
I like being able to see your class/club out there with you guys, but do you ever get more space? I feel like your practice can get quite dynamic with additional moves as you dont have people to bump into. But then again, I suppose that makes the engagement a commitment and forces a definite conclusion.
What is the point of the cloak here?
Parry cut or thrust. smother the opponents weapon, or momentarily blind them.
thanks
Dude, throw the cloak once and as a gentleman you let him pick it up, but twice, that's too much!
I would love to learn how to historically duel 🤺 but I alive in NYC and the only HEMA is in New Jersey the enemy of New York 😡
nick is das best
I hate to be that guy, but they don't seem to be using the cape to its full potential...
See the description, this is two skilled rapier fencers brining the cape into action for pretty much the first time. It is the one part of rapier fencing we have just never really spent any time on before. That said, not everybody who would utilise a cloak would necessarily be well practiced with it, it is very much an improvised weapon.
Don't think you should parry with a cloak. It can be done, but how are you going to riposte? Cloakslap? Get the cloak wet and wrap it real tight and whip them in the eye? I think the most effective use of the cloak is to first off hold it off to the side so you dont sacrifice the distance of your rapier in front, and then throw it forward to BLOCK VISION before committing a strike.
Bloodsaber64 Finally, a smart comment. Gotta do it "The Accountant" style by whipping them right in the face.
What kinda of shoes are they wearing?
Onitsuka Tigers, we also use the Onitsuka Mexico 66 model. Both excellent for this. They are also sold under the brand of Asics.
You seem a decent fellow, I hate to kill you
You seem a decent fellow, I hate to die
You both seem a decent fellows, I hate these cloaks
I love how comedic everyone in the comments are.